It really doesn’t matter whether or not Tim Kaine gives you a warm tingly feeling. What matters is even with the many things I don’t like about him (the hawkishness, the spotty labor records, the apparent deference to Israel) is that he is solid and should anything happen to Hillary, he would be a sober and serious leader.
And she likes him and thinks he will help her govern. That’s all that fucking matters.
Remember, Biden had a LOT of baggage when Obama chose him (google Biden+Banking+Delaware). He’s turned out ok, hasn’t he?
rikyrah
Luvvie has commented on the present state of affairs.
The Devil is a Walking Cheeto Running for President
Awesomely Luvvie — July 22, 2016
The Devil doesn’t wear Prada. He wears a self-branded suit that’s made in China as he rails against immigrants and threatens to build a Wall as if anyone who isn’t American is a White Walker. The Long Night is here. Note: I’m sorry but there are just too many Game of Thrones parallels in this election cycle.
We knew this was happening. But for it to really happen, it’s like “oh so this is the gateway to hell.” I see. Where is the beast we were threatened with? Well, that squirrel-wig adorned monster, Donald Trump, is the official Republican nominee for President. The man who folks laughed at when he declared he was even running in the first place. The man who folks said would not get far in the race. That man beat the rest and stood on a stage and proudly accepted his presidential nomination.
That man, who folks say “cannot win” has defied all the jokes til now and he is the last GOP man standing. In a field of weeds, the most rotten weed refused to be plucked out, and has spread its filth across the grass. Now we have nothing but weeds because we let it grow. We gave it room. And here we are, with brown grass. The green is gone.
And that ignoramus accepted by giving a speech that was full of lies, thinly veiled racism, islamophobia, more lies, and just overall nutbaggery. The man is a power-hungry sociopath and I am more frightened than ever that he will get into the White House and we are all doomed.
Baud
You’re a little late to the party.
Troll shomi will have something to say about that.
La Caterina (Mrs. Johannes)
Did you get all the burrs out of Steve’s coat?
rikyrah
Follow
John DingellVerified account
@JohnDingell
While Trump dangerously trashes NATO, @timkaine’s United States Marine son set to deploy next week to assist our NATO allies.
Well then.
dmsilev
I don’t think The Onion is ever going to be able to top their Joe Biden coverage. Truly awesome.
different-church-lady
Check out the thread downstairs — he appears to be giving several people tingly feelings.
Mr. Mack
What is his spotty labor record? He was raised in a union household, in fact his dad owned the shop. I’m asking not because I don’t believe what you’re saying, but it seems like the unions really like him.
David ?▶️Hillary/Harley Quinn 2016▶️? Koch
rikyrah
Victoria Brownworth
@VABVOX
When white “progressives” say #TimKaine doesn’t excite the base but this is his church for 30yrs & this is Dem base.
different-church-lady
BTW, what’s with all the weaponized photos and gifs the last 18 hours?
bystander
Bubububbuuuuttt Kaine wasn’t for same-sex marriage 10 years ago! That’s why I’m voting Trump/Pence.
David ?▶️Hillary/Harley Quinn 2016▶️? Koch
This didn’t have the flash of a Trump rally: no blonde aryans doing Nazi salutes, no one was wearing Waffen-SS insignia, no one shouting down the speakers.
It was a real letdown.
Mnemosyne
@rikyrah:
I missed her post on W at the Dallas police memorial because I was traveling last week. I had actual tears of laughter running down my face when I got to “OMG SANTA I KNOW HIM!”
JPL
@rikyrah: This tweet says it all link
Ultraviolet Thunder
Kaine is fine. I’m surprised at how relieved I feel now that the veep candidate position is set. Suddenly HRC seems a little less vulnerable. This could have gone badly, but at best Kaine will be a good surrogate, an ambassador to Latinos (maybe) and at worst will do little harm.
Now for the long slog to November.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Undecided voter on MSNBC just now, explaining the appeal of “Make America Great Again”: America has lost its footing in the world, President Obama said we would lead from behind [no, he didn’t], and I think the world wants us to lead from the front [which poll are you looking at, lady?]
That’s the electorate we’re dealing with.
lamh36
Wow… as GOP folks say more things like, makes me like Kaine more and more
David ?▶️Hillary/Harley Quinn 2016▶️? Koch
@Mr. Mack: exactly. what spotty labor record? he has a 96% rating from the AFL-CIO
Monster! Worse than Bush!
Major Major Major Major
Kaines fine. And (as I said yesterday) he’s giving certain people the vapors, so that makes me happy too.
Ultraviolet Thunder
@David ?▶️Hillary/Harley Quinn 2016▶️? Koch:
And the NRA gave him an “F”. In Virginia. I like this guy.
Baud
@Ultraviolet Thunder: And he beat them there.
Baud
@David ?▶️Hillary/Harley Quinn 2016▶️? Koch: The internet does strange things to people.
David ?▶️Hillary/Harley Quinn 2016▶️? Koch
YES! SHE! KAINE! (cover New York Daily News)
Jordan Rules
I love the pick. People will get more tingly as the campaign progresses.
Mnemosyne
@rikyrah:
I only have one possible response to that post:
WORK!
Mr. Mack
@JPL: Shared that. Perfect.
Davis X. Machina
@lamh36: Trolling. It’s not just for comments sections any more.
David ?▶️Hillary/Harley Quinn 2016▶️? Koch
@Baud: he’s a good guy, but sometimes he blindly regurgitates Griftwald’s brain farts.
The Thin Black Duke
Call me a bastard, but I can’t wait for the first VP debate when a smiling Tim Kaine disembowels Mike Pence without breaking a sweat.
Villago Delenda Est
Shall we be blunt? Tim Kaine would make a better (fill in the elected official here) than either Drumpf or Dense.
He has his faults…all of us do. But he’s solid. He’s a good backstop for Hilz. He’ll do just fine.
Fuck the purity ponies. I have so had it up to here with them.
Baud
@The Thin Black Duke: Bastard!
David ?▶️Hillary/Harley Quinn 2016▶️? Koch
I still have a few teeth in my head and I can remember when the usual suspects were upset over the Biden pick. But the non-elites quickly fell in love with Uncle Joe.
Villago Delenda Est
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: A sizable chunk of cretinous dogshit. Yup.
Gin & Tonic
@Baud: I didn’t read that as a command.
? Martin
People should note the objections to Kaine. They object to things that happened when he was governor and ignore the things he did as Senator.
I think Kaine (like Obama) sees a clear distinction between his job as executive and as legislator. That limited his capacity to advance progressive causes while he had a Republican legislature and was governor of a historically red state with a long history of conservative policies. Once he became legislator, he was more free to vote for progressive causes, including ones that weren’t supported by the majority of voters.
I have no question that Kaine is a strong progressive. How he will expose that as VP is an open question. He will have more latitude than Clinton will have – just as Biden was able to jump ahead on gay marriage earlier than Obama. I think the campaign will reveal quite a bit.
Iowa Old Lady
The rollout has been impressive both in its competence and in the quality of the speeches and rally. Good sign for the future campaign.
Mnemosyne
@different-church-lady:
With the caveat that I have been married for 10 years now:
It’s like when you’re single and you’re on a dating website and you see a picture of a guy who has an appealing profile and you’re like, Meh, I guess I’ll meet him for coffee on a weeknight and see how it goes. And then you actually meet him and talk to him for a while and next thing you know, you’re making out in your car.
I think it’s a really good sign that people are way more excited about Kaine now that they’ve “met” him than they were when he was first announced.
The Thin Black Duke
@Baud: Thank you ladies and gentlemen, we’ll be here the rest of the week.
gogol's wife
@rikyrah:
That is really good.
RobertDSC-iPad Mini
@David ?▶️Hillary/Harley Quinn 2016▶️? Koch:
I like that.
? Martin
IBM defending free trade in the 80s.
catclub
@Ultraviolet Thunder: The NRA routinely gives and F to Democrats who did not vote that much differently than Republicans they gave an A to. They are completely partisan.
gogol's wife
@The Thin Black Duke:
Ooh, yeah, that’s going to be good.
This guy is wicked smart. And he’s (sorta) from mah home town! I’m stoked!
Jim, Foolish Literalist
and in another part of the world, smart people continue to focus on what really matters
(I’ll admit, I don’t know what a minority report would be in this context)
Mike J
Spotty labor record with AFL-CIO and SEIU both backing him?
Ultraviolet Thunder
@catclub: The NRA swings a lot of weight in places like Virginia but they don’t seem to have damaged him. That’s a good sign.
The Thin Black Duke
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: And they wonder why African-American voters didn’t take them seriously. Oh, I forgot, they didn’t care what African-American voters thought, did they?
aimai
@David ?▶️Hillary/Harley Quinn 2016▶️? Koch: He’s giving me tingly feelings all over my downstairs, and my upstairs too. I’m actually watching the intro and speech right now on youtube. He is fricken adorable! And I just love the focus of the entire introduction. Its out, loud, and progressive.
As for all the anti Kaine crap that people have been throwing around. I really am just amazed at how easily, fluidly, seamlessly people are willing to just lie about a public servant with a pretty damned good record. The guy is pro union, pro civil rights, pro poor people’s rights, pro women’s rights, has worked at many levels of government, etc..etc…etc… Literally none of the shit that the anti Kaine people have said turns out to be grounded in reality. I mean tons of people just repeat shit they think they saw or heard online but but are they ever right about the shit they spew? I mean really ever right?
Also I loved his quote from his mother “If you want to be right–be a pessimist, if you want to do right? Be an optimist.” Because I see so much of that in the far left progressive bloggsophere. These are people who would literally rather be right (or be seen to be right) than ever get anything done. They would rather feel smug about Bernie, or whoever is their latest no hoper, than get down in the trenches and accomplish something. And they are willing to shit all over everyone who is willing to work hard at the job for fear that their own failure to do anything will embarrass them.
Aleta
Even if feel you’re in a true hostage situation, you have to subordinate the anger to trying to save who and what you love.
hellslittlestangel
My initial reaction to Obama’s choice of Biden: “Huh? What?”
One year later: Obama is a genius.
My initial reaction to Clinton’s choice of Kaine: “Huh? What?”
FridayNext
@Mr. Mack:
Possibly his support of the Fast Track provision of the TPP and in general he can be very pro-free trade in a way that makes some pro-labor groups nervous.
That’s just a guess and all I got.
gogol's wife
@hellslittlestangel:
Have you watched his speech yet?
Keith G
@Baud:
He’s preaching to the choir, ‘cept the choir already sang the Hallelujah Chorus and done left the building.
David ?▶️Hillary/Harley Quinn 2016▶️? Koch
The Thin Black Duke
@aimai: Bottom line, Tim Kaine is the progressive that Bernie Sanders claims to be, because the genuine progressives are the men and women who get shit done.
Brachiator
I didn’t know anything about Kaine before his selection, but everything I am learning about him is positive. He is looking more and more like a good choice, not simplistically a safe choice.
I’m not seeing that the whiners have much of a leg to stand on.
And there’s no “should have been Bernie” nonsense that could be sold here.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
has there always been this much no-fucks-left-to-givism in politics, in the Democratic party, or is the internet just making me more aware of it? (and yes, I know it’s not just Barney Frank, it’s retired Barney Frank)
Baud
@David ?▶️Hillary/Harley Quinn 2016▶️? Koch:
Now you’re just mocking raven.
Keith G
I donated right after the speech in order to show my support. Then this showed up:
::Clicking the button again::
Don’t y’all want a sticker too?
Technocrat
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Over/under on the number of outraged DK diaries that produces?
I’m going with 4
Tom Q
1) Kaine’s speech was pretty terrific; he’s got likability and comfort-in-his-own-skin clearly going for him. I don’t think you need much else to be an effective VP candidate.
2) I remember when John Breaux and Al D’Amato were the media idea of moderates. For a guy with the ratings being thrown around from all the liberal groups to be called a moderate kind of negates the lefty notion that neoliberal sellouts have control of the world.
patroclus
I thought that was an excellent speech by Kaine. And the more I learn about him, the better I feel about his selection as the running mate. A civil rights lawyer, a missionary, bi-lingual and the ability to tell jokes in Spanish, geniality but capable of delivering a good barb, steady, a gun control advocate, a labor guy, opposition to capital punishment, passionately pro-choice, strong on gay rights, a strong immigration advocate who speaks movingly of citizenship ceremonies, a son serving in the Marines deployed to Europe to uphold the NATO alliance, a Republican wife who’s Dad was a civil rights pioneer, a former mayor, Governor, Senator, never lost an election, a Catholic social justice advocate. I’m duly impressed.
Shalimar
@David ?▶️Hillary/Harley Quinn 2016▶️? Koch: I call bullshit. No one has the memory to blindly regurgitate Greenwald’s long, rambling brain farts.
hellslittlestangel
@gogol’s wife: Not yet.
scav
ehh, any tingle is a nice to have but extra, so long as there is either the itch or decision and the action to actually get the lever pulled. Whatever it takes to get in the booth.
The solid conversational and affable speaking style, with well-aimed stiletto jabs sprinkled though, that’s higher on my I’m glad it’s in our back pocket list.
dmsilev
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Barney Frank has been like that for a long time. Remember, he’s the one who told a heckler at a town hall meeting that arguing with her was about as productive as arguing with a dining room table.
dmsilev
@Technocrat: 4? I’ll take the over.
Schlemazel Khan
Right on JC! I was not an Obama supporter until caucus night & still thought he was not as liberal as I wanted. I was even more distressed at his picking Uncle Joe, I took it as a bad sign. But I looked at the alternative & realized this was the only choice. I worked his campaign as much as I could. I am OK with the last 8 years. If we can get a Dem Senate & then House I am sure these 2 will carry us further.
dogwood
“Progressives” bitching about Kaine don’t seem to know anything about him. It’s part of the closed world of the left leaning segments of the Internet. His position on smaller regional banks and credit unions is not dangerous or anti-liberal. My credit union should not be treated like the “too big to fail” banks that sank the world economy. Kaine has the same problem with the left that anyone who has actually had to govern in a variety of situations and at various levels of government will face. He can never be pure like Elizabeth Warren because Warren only addresses a limited number of issues. People project all kinds of progressive purity onto her based on facts not in evidence. The criticism of Kaine seems to be fuzzy at best. My guess is it really stems from him being a white male.
gogol's wife
@Keith G:
Done!
different-church-lady
@rikyrah: Well, they don’t look very excited by him.
[ducks]
Tom Q
@dogwood: Or from someone not actually as interested in progressive causes as in ratfucking the Dem ticket. Remember: Karl Rove was actively funding support for Sanders from early in the year; why would anyone assume that’s ceased?
different-church-lady
@dogwood:
Let’s save ourselves some time going forward, shall we? Because it isn’t going to end any time soon.
dmsilev
@dogwood: I’m pretty sure that if Warren had been picked, there would be people, quite possibly the same people who have the vapors over Kaine, tearing into her record and positions as well. Says more about the pearl-clutchers and smelling-salt-smellers than it does about either Hillary Clinton or Tim Kaine (or Elizabeth Warren).
SiubhanDuinne
@Keith G:
Ha! I just did the same! I want my ⓈⓉⒾⒸⓀⒺⓇⓈ!
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I’ll cop to being one of those who was eye-rolling at Kaine 24, or at least 36, hours ago, and I think you’re right. It says something that the first woman to be a major party nominee is having to justify picking a white male running mate, and in another way, that a northern Democrat has to justify picking a Southern running mate, one generally considered a moderate.
different-church-lady
@lamh36:
I know. What’s so hard to understand about, “ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH!!!!!!!!”
Brachiator
OK, I’m bored with the Kaine stuff. There is no controversy here.
What is the deal with the DMV Wiki leaks. Is the idea to punish the Democrats for their lack of allegiance to progressive purity?
ETA. Joking about the boredom. I’ve learned a lot about Kaine here. It’s surprising how pointless the negativity is.
MomSense
@lamh36:
Ha! The news outlets are going to have to hire translators to cover this election. Si se puede!
Technocrat
@dogwood:
I think a large part of it is that doesn’t exemplify the “Fuck the Establishment!” mood that infecting a lot of the Dem party right now. I keep hearing that he’s “too safe”. If he were a suuuper angry white dude, he’d probably have been received differently.
He needs to wave some chairs round, maybe.
aimai
@Technocrat: I think there will be at least six.
Davis X. Machina
@Brachiator:
The revolution is not a dinner party. There will be casualties.
Brachiator
@Tom Q:
Really don’t care. This just makes Rove look like more of a dope, outsmarting himself.
FlipYrWhig
@dogwood: They know that someone quickly planted a seed about trade and banking issues, and they immediately swallowed that seed, because that’s what they do, and have been doing for years. I am really dumbfounded by the uncritical willingness that supposed progressives have shown this cycle to believe the worst, happily, about just about everything.
BTW I just found out that a coworker who grew up around Richmond VA knows Kaine as a longstanding family friend. If it matters, the coworker is African American.
catclub
@dmsilev: I still would have liked to see Warren run as VP, win, then return to the senate, turning down the VP job.
dmsilev
@Brachiator:
There are at least some hints that it’s explicitly aimed at splitting the Democrats just before their convention and hence boost Trump’s chances, courtesy of some Russia-based hackers with possible connections to the Russian government.
Keith G
Just got an SMS offering me the chance to get a second sticker for just $3.
I type this with admiration: Hillary’s people are more tenacious than the 700 Club scamming old ladies for a Love Offering (prayer cloth as a free gift).
BTW check out Hillary’s Instagram for behind the scene pics and Tim Kaine’s commentary.
MomSense
@Keith G:
I did, too. I’m so fired up! Wave election if we work for it!
Fair Economist
@Brachiator:
The source is parts of the Russian spy network. Putin wants Trump elected.
aimai
@dmsilev: The thing that I find rather sadly typical is that people–on the far left or in the press–simply can’t admit that Hillary made a great choice, great on many levels. She made a wise choice. She didn’t let all the people pulling and whining and demanding throw her off her stride. She knew what she wanted and she went ahead and chose him and they are obviously a very good fit. She knows what she is doing. She didn’t accidentally roll out of bed and decide to be President, she knows what is involved and she is doing what she needs to do.
But you are not going to see any laudatory press stories about her and her wisdom, or her foresight, or her tenacity because that is not the narrative the Press or her enemies (on either the right or the left) want to push. They simply can’t stop hawking the story that she is stupid, cautious, weak, selfish, nervous, or whatever. Things that if she were a Republican, or a male Democrat, would simply never be said about her.
different-church-lady
@aimai:
The thing that makes me so relentless jaded (verging on voluntary hippy-punching, if I’m going to be honest) in my comments around here (and other parts of Left Blogistan) is the creeping realization over the past few years that that the loud on-line left has decided to embrace the very dysfunction you describe, and then congratulate themselves on how politically engaged they are.
FlipYrWhig
@Technocrat: It’s not “Fuck the Establishment,” it’s PAY ATTENTION TO MEEEE IM VERY SERIOUS AND IMPORTANT AND IVE BEEN WAITING. Fuck all of them, there’s people trying to clean up the spill and they’re standing in the way emoting about how the spill totally shouldn’t be there instead of grabbing a mop.
piratedan
@Shalimar: especially with the lede being buried in paragraph 7 that shows his headline is nothing more than clickbait
different-church-lady
@dmsilev: I believe we’re overthinking this — Wikileaks just enjoys being a bunch of assholes.
Barb2
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Goes to prove the people being interviewed don’t have a clue. They are either projecting their values onto Trump or they depend on FOX for “information”.
Trump lies 96% of the time. But his fan base will never learn that fact from Fox.
My husband listened to Hillary’s rally out in the barn (npr) while he was working. He was impressed. This is the first Clinton rally he’s heard. Retired college educated white guy is with Her! One sample of the millions of votes Hillary will need in November.
Trump & NATO. Putin’s Puppet. Anti Climate Change. Etc – so many reasons not to vote Trump – it’s impossible to choose one.
Keith G
@catclub:
No.
That would a very unwise stunt and she would richly earn the derision she would receive for doing such a thing. One should stand for election because one means to fulfill the commitments they make while running.
Brachiator
@Davis X. Machina:
It is a proven fact that most of the Americans talking about revolution do so at dinner parties. The staff and hired help listening to this stuff quietly laugh their asses off.
FlipYrWhig
@different-church-lady: Yup. Which is the same thing as that weird relative who believes all the email forwards that hit his inbox. THIS SECRET INFORMATION PROVES IVE BEEN RIGHT TO BE PARANOID ALL ALONG
SiubhanDuinne
@Keith G: Likewise!
Shana
@SiubhanDuinne: Just dug through my box of old stuff and pulled this out:
sorry, don’t know how to link a photo but it’s a smily face with Kaine’s eyebrow over one of the eyes.
different-church-lady
@aimai:
If she were a male Democrat, those things would absolutely be said about “him.” But the assholes in the electorate wouldn’t take quite as much glee in repeating them.
Quinerly
@Major Major Major Major:
Vapors? Who me? Are you peeping at me? I feel so violated.❤ (opposite)
Technocrat
@different-church-lady:
But only to the DNC? I doubt the RNC’s servers are THAT much more secure.
dmsilev
@aimai:Generally agreed, but one nitpick:
Cautious, weak, and selfish have all been thrown at Obama, along with a bunch of other things.
different-church-lady
@dmsilev: Weak, spineless, and a dictator, all at the same time, somehow.
Technocrat
@different-church-lady:
bumbling and yet brilliantly machiavellian
Brachiator
@aimai:
The Guardian has a story about how great Hillary’s selection of Kaine is.
Posting from a cell phone. The link won’t set up properly.
Quinerly
Ladies, can we all agree now…we would “do” Tim Kaine….well, if he wasn’t married and some of us weren’t married. I now know how Tweety felt with that tingle thing.?
Bill E Pilgrim
Yep. It’s now clear that they’re positioning this thing as the antidote to Trump’s fear-mongering and racism, running as sunny, optimistic, uplifting and inclusive.
Paul Krugman Tweeted a chart this morning asking the same question I had been asking, how the hell does someone win running on claims of stratospheric crime rates when the curve is so clearly the other direction? Yes FOX-addled voters are susceptible and gullible but this is just too divorced from reality to work.
So this is the smart move, the way they’re going, and if he can help win Virginia, heck they’re wishing they could nominate a VP once a day, from PA, OH, and VA, but since you only get one well there you go.
I’ve got reservations about Hillary herself let alone her VP pick, but as I may have bored ppl saying by now I lived through the Le Pen – Chirac election and the message was clear after the first round, namely okay, with Le Pen as the only other choice, the only thing that matters is making sure Chirac gets elected, and all the disparate splinters came together and made that happen, including people who hated Chirac, people who were “meh” about him, the whole range. And he got 86%.
Make it so.
Mnemosyne
@different-church-lady:
I’m trying not to succumb to paranoia, but we already know that Wikileaks receives money from the Russian government, and 2 of Hillary’s opponents had/have campaign managers with direct ties to Putin.
After a certain point, you have to accept that the feathered animal with webbed feet waddling down the sidewalk is, in fact, a duck.
Keith G
@aimai:
.
FYI: Washington Post Editorial Board:
LA Times:
NY Times
p.a.
I hate to rain on this Kaine love-fest, but wait ’till the Rethugs and their MSM enablers bring up the Abel issue.
different-church-lady
@Mnemosyne: Well, okay. But I still say they enjoy being assholes, even if only concurrently.
Cacti
@catclub:
They also didn’t have boo to say about Philando Castile, an African American man who was shot to death by police for exercising his Second Amendment rights.
It’s almost like the National Rifle Association is actually a narrow, right wing, white identity group or something.
Pogonip
@MomSense: Univision won’t. Si se pueden!
aimai
@dmsilev: The press has been feminizing successful democratic males for a long time. They infantilized Clinton because as a hound dog with a great head of hair they couldn’t feminize him quite that easily. But they attacked Obama as a metrosexual so they could feel free to say the same things about him that they would say about a woman. So its not that they don’t use gender, or rely on gender, to undercut Hillary but that they have for a long time treated Democratic leaders as female in order to undercut them.
But the tide, this time, is turning. Trump is so horrific that if Hillary were a white dude they would be pushing him and there would be puff think pieces and beat sweetners about him. Its just going to take a really long time before she is given her due as a political actor and thinker. The press is going to insist on seeing her as a freak or a puppet for a long time.
aimai
@Keith G: Interesting, because I heard people being interviewed on NPR who were touting the Bernie line that Kaine was irremiediably tainted by argle bargle blarrrrgh.
lgerard
OT, but I wonder how they explained to Pence that there just wasn’t room on the GIANT TRUMP sign that hung over the RNC stage
Villago Delenda Est
@p.a.: Oh, yeah, that’s going to be killer.
I’m holding out for Tim to say something less than fully complimentary about Hillary’s shoes or something, and we’ll have a “Kaine Mutiny” trope all over the MSM.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Jeb Bush’s advisor on immigration issues
Brachiator
From the Guardian piece on Kaine
? Martin
@FridayNext: Worth noting that 60% of Democrats support free trade compared to only about 40% of Republicans. It’s a policy that Republican leaders are out of step with their voters on (notably, except for Trump) and that Kaine is not out of step on with his voters.
Latinos are overwhelmingly pro-trade as are young people (both over 70% support). The anti-trade issue is largely a old white male grievance issue that a lot of so-called ‘purity’ Dems are demanding.
Bill E Pilgrim
@p.a.: Yeah but before that Trump will look back at his scorched Earth destruction of the GOP and be turned into a pillar of salt. Really good salt, the best, most beautiful, fantastic salt, gold- and pink-plated Himalayan salt like you’ve never seen, but still.
Cacti
@Bill E Pilgrim:
Smart.
Americans at heart are an optimistic, “can-do” sort of people. Alexis de Tocqueville noticed that about us all the way back in 1835. If the day ever comes that a majority of us want to hide behind a demagogue of doom like Trump, then I’ll truly believe that America has stopped being great.
Villago Delenda Est
@Cacti:
The 2nd Amendment was never meant to apply to anyone with a melanin surplus.
See California, 1967, for evidence of this.
Hell, see the entire history of the slave states for evidence of this.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
one of those tics of Maureen Dowd that make me wonder if anyone who knows her loves her enough to point it out. ETA: I think it was the “Obambi and the Dominatrix” stuff that made me stop reading her regularly. Now I forget all about her unless someone mentions her– an increasingly rare event– or I happen to pick up the dead tree Sunday edition.
When HRC cried in New Hampshire and Dowd quoted an anonymous female NYT colleague as making some stupid remark about “is she gonna cry in front of Putin”, maybe it was al Qaeda, I’ve always wondered if she was quoting herself. After her incredibly dishonest column on marijuana, I wouldn’t put anything past her.
Ultraviolet Thunder
@aimai: To say nothing of how they treated Gore. They barely admitted that he was male. And the comments about his earth toned suits.
Mnemosyne
@p.a.:
Assuming we’re talking about the gifts thing from when he was governor, even Politico doesn’t see much there there. It’s stuff like staying at a friend’s vacation house, estimating the fair market price, and declaring that amount as a “gift.” Also several instances of accepting a ride on someone’s corporate jet, estimating the fair market value, and reporting it.
Villago Delenda Est
@Cacti: The panicked shit your pants reaction to 9/11 really made “the Home of the Brave” a questionable assertion.
different-church-lady
@Keith G:
LIBERAL DEMOCRATS: “But it’s my only line!!”
Bill E Pilgrim
@Mnemosyne: /taps M on the shoulder
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cain_and_Abel
different-church-lady
@Villago Delenda Est: Now I’ll take issue with that: Sept 11 would be something of magnitude for ANY country.
It wasn’t the panicked reaction that was the problem — it was the cold, manipulative leverage of that fear by our government at the time.
jl
Reading tea leaves, attempting to mind read VP picks is a waste of time. Hey, if HRC were really an evil calculating schemer, she would have picked Warren for veep to juice her progressive cred to lure in the Bernie purists for the election, worked to replace her with a corporate Dem Senator for MA, and then sidelined Warren doing burger (or maybe healthy salad?) runs for VP! Huh? Watch out, it’s a TARP!
I can see some electoral advantages to Kaine as veep nom. He seems to have a history as being a very good campaigner. He will bring a cheerful, friendly approachable, but acute and articulate, presence to the campaign. And we all may need that badly in a couple of months or we will all end up on heavy meds. And no question he can do the basic job of VP, which is to be a good president of something bad happens. So, the hell with all the horse race and mind reading seance BS on this. It’s a solid pick, and he seems like he will do a good job and getting the ticket elected. Good enough for me.
Edit: but I guess we can find out which commenter told HRC to pick the ‘boring’ Kaine, assign blame and then there will be hell to pay, right?
Keith G
@aimai: I hear what you are saying. Doing an interview and airing it is not necessarily the same thing as performing advocacy. However, if those are the only opinions allowed to surface, then there is a problem.
Cacti
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
That sounds like it’s straight out of the Fox News school of “Some people say…”. Really? What people other than the speaker are saying it? Weasel journalism 101.
Mnemosyne
@Ultraviolet Thunder:
And don’t forget that half the slam on Gore for the “earth-toned” suits thing was that he was taking instructions from a WOMAN about how to be a MAN!1!!!1
I think this election is going to be to sexism what Obama’s election was to racism. A whole lot of putrid shit is going to bubble up and people who didn’t really “get” how pervasive sexism really is will be horrified to see it in the light of day. Just as conservatives forgot how to dogwhistle about racism once an actual black man was in office, they’re going to forget how to dogwhistle about sexism once an actual woman is in office.
Fasten your seatbelts, it’s going to be a bumpy campaign.
Kropadope
@aimai:
I’d certainly have a hard time coming up with a better choice for her running mate. He’s firmly within the Democratic mainstream and has been elected to more than one statewide office in one of the most important swing states. Hillary said her main focuses (foci?) were making sure her choice was ready to become president at a moment’s notice and would have good credentials on national security, important since Trump’s misguided attacks seem to focus around immigrants and scary Muslim nations. Given his service on the Armed Forces Committee, the Foreign Relations committee, the budget committee, and several related subcommittees; I would say he meets that goal handsomely.
I preferred Perez, but his resume just didn’t look like the resume of a typical VP choice. Having obtained elective office is an important credential.
p.a.
@Bill E Pilgrim: McMeagan Eats Trump!!
MomSense
@Pogonip:
I just love that Kaine is going to force the news outlets to hire more Spanish speaking broadcasters. They should have done so long ago but let’s hope they will have to hire even more for the press corpse to cover the Clinton Kaine administration.
jl
@Mnemosyne: Only suggestion I have for Kaine is to get him a gym membership plan and a crash workout plan. So he can get studded up and hotted out like he used to be. Then maybe all those centrist GOP refugee pundits will swoon over him?
MomSense
@Kropadope:
Apparently Castro and Perez don’t speak Spanish so that is another reason Kaine is a good pick.
Irony Abounds
My cousin is very close to Kaine, has known him for years and simply adores him (she also isn’t thrilled with Hillary, so we share that in common). In her words, Kaine is an incredibly decent person, and whip smart. Hopefully he’ll be able to clean Pence’s clock in their debate. My wife knew nothing about him but after watching his speech today, which by any measure was rock solid, she said “Hillary’s just won this election.” I think he’s a great choice and may even help the ticket out here in God forsaken Arizona (and maybe help defeat Grandpa John in the process). I’ll never be enthusiastic about Hillary, but I think she made a smart pick for any number of reasons.
The Other Chuck
@jl: All he needs to do is buy a grill and a tire swing.
FlipYrWhig
@? Martin: “Trade” is becoming a code word on the left the way “deficit” is on the right. “Trade” doesn’t really mean trade, it means the entire system of globalized corporate capitalism and its effects on workers, including job losses in formerly unionized industries. (“Deficit” means “spending too freely on people of color.”). You say “trade” instead of “capitalism” because that way you can get a more receptive audience that includes people who aren’t anti-capitalist but do feel like decent people’s former jobs went to Mexico and China and no one in politics is trying to get them back.
? Martin
@Kropadope: I think we have a lot of excellent choices. They deliver in different ways. Unfortunately the calculus this year, determined primarily by Trump was that the Dems didn’t need to outwardly fight for black, latino, and LGBT voters. That said, I think Clinton and Kaine each will be very good champions for those communities, but there’s no substitute for actual representation.
He’s probably the right tactical choice for this election, but doesn’t necessarily advance the Democrats with the constituencies that will deliver Congress over the longer haul. That doesn’t make him a bad choice by any means, but it’s in some respects a missed opportunity. I hope they work extra hard to compensate for that.
aimai
@Kropadope: I think the measure of Hillary’s presidency, long term, is going to be how she fosters POC and women who have made it into Obama’s administration and moves them along a pipeline into public service and elected office. In eight years I’d like to see the entire democratic party lineup staffed by ex-Obama and Clinton staffers, administrators, and people like that. That’s what a deep bench means. Pulling Perez up before his time and sticking hi in the VP slot doesn’t do as much as that will. And I think President Obama including Elizabeth Warren in on his weekly radio speech is an example of this more team oriented, team building, focus that has characterized Obama and Hillary both as they build their election machine.
Mnemosyne
@jl:
And the backwards baseball cap. Don’t forget the backwards baseball cap!
jl
@Irony Abounds: Kaine’s personality, which seems cheerful, friendly, approachable, but also unflappable, direct, and with no apparent ‘back-down’ or timidity in it, might be very important in the campaign. Especially if he will play a big role as surrogate. There are very important things that are hard to measure that will be important in the campaign.
And HRC and TK seems to genuinely like each other and get along very well. Compare the infantile Trump and stiff non-too-swift Pence. And in a presser yesterday, apparently it is already eating away at Trump that he has to put up with the indignity of sharing the stage with any second banana at all on a permanent basis, and endure the humiliation of the presence of some dumb loser whose sole Constitutional duty is to wait in the background to replace him if need be. Replace Trump!? Intolerable humiliation. Trump is already making nasty cracks about it.
And as was mentioned last night, Biden was a great hype man for Obama. Kaine will probably be a great hype man for HRC. And Trump has the stiff, establishment hack, Pence. The outrages and injustices compound for poor Trump. I wonder if in a month, the two can barely stand to be on the same platform together.
gogol's wife
@Quinerly:
lol. Biden too.
jl
@Mnemosyne: Whatever it takes.
Anyway, people should look up pics of the young Kaine that are floating around the internet.
I am very hetero oriented, but even I was very impressed (or maybe jealous? not sure which).
aimai
@? Martin: See, I think that is a weird way of looking at it. And I think it is incredibly insulting to the AA and hispanic communities. The AA community is, by and large, Hillary’s god damned base. They didn’t need Cory Booker in there as VP to know that their concerns as a community are going to be front and center in a Hillary administration. And ditto for the hispanic community–in fact I think the choice of Kaine was sheer genius, there, since there can be no infighting and hard feelings about which latino community he really represents. In that way Kaine is like a lingua franca, he stands in for “I am concerned with immigrant and latino issues” but he doesn’t shift the focus onto one particular community or history. This is the error, by the way, that the RNC always makes by trying to have Cubans stand in for “latino” and also for neglecting, inter alia, the Brazilians and the Puerto Ricans as well as the Mexicans and the Central and Latin American imigrants.
gogol's wife
OMG it just hit me, we have our candidate for 2024.
aimai
@jl: I think you are prescient. Trump will not campaign with Pence at all. Won’t be able to be on stage with him and won’t want him to take any of the important job of reassuring donors or whatever they thought Pence would do. If its work–Trump won’t want to do it, but if it feels important, he won’t want Pence to do it. What was that marvellous tweet I saw yesterday? Can’t get it to work but it basically said
“teaching Trump to give a speech is like teaching Charlie Manson to foxtrot. Just when you are congratulating yourself that its going ok he sticks a pencil in your eye because: Charlie Manson.”
Baud
@aimai:
One of the problems with Obama — and it’s not his fault — is that he achieved icon status early on. Everything was focused on him to the detriment of other important components of the political system.
Although Hillary will be groundbreaking as the first women president, I don’t think she’ll have the same iconic status. So I hope she is able to recenter the party so that it’s not all about the presidency, but about the whole team.
Aleta
@lgerard: Good question. It didn’t even dawn on me that he was missing = not good for him.
Aleta
@Irony Abounds: Thanks for that direct info about Kaine. I appreciate the reassurance.
gogol's wife
@Villago Delenda Est:
I’ll say it again: The mess boys ate the strawberries.
jl
@aimai: Not prescient. I don’t have time to get the links, but I hope Trump will be as big a mess and he indicated with his conduct the day after the RNC sewer fest was over. He went from publicly plotting revenge on those miserable heels who crossed him, Cruz and Kasich (surely a very high priority for the campaign! Everyone should see that.), and then started making weird cracks about Pence that the articles said left people there wincing.
In contrast, the Obama and Biden families became best buds almost immediately and started doing family parties together, and HRC and TK seem to really like each other and complement each other. That stuff makes a big difference. Admittedly on the margins, but it is those margins that usually win elections.
hovercraft
@different-church-lady:
He’s a dictator at home because he hates America and the American people. He’s weak and spineless internationally because he knows that America is responsible for everything bad in the world, that’s why he is always apologizing, and why he bows down to other countries. He is conspiring with the world to destroy America, and Hillary is in on it. She will finish the job.
gogol's wife
@Mnemosyne:
haha, I made the same mistake. Ze is referencing something from a little book called Genesis.
aimai
@FlipYrWhig: This is so profoundly true. Its getting to be that you can see any conversation that includes TPP or the words trade going right down the tubes, regardless of the merits of the issue, because people are just so full of shit about it and really mean “end capitalism now!” And from the point of view of a President who is obligated to make sure that the economy doesn’t grind to a halt again, that millions of people aren’t thrown out of work pursuing a will of the wisp idea about the evils of capitalism, its just absurd.
? Martin
@FlipYrWhig:
The problem with the coded language is that it prevents you from communicating properly with your constituents, and it makes it impossible to achieve any kind of consensus because you are literally speaking different languages. And you run the risk that your constituents redefine the terms and demand things that actually harm them. Trade is critical to every reliable blue state. You take an anti-trade stance and you can kiss California goodby as a Democratic state, and New York will follow.
Now, if you instead focus more clearly on the issues behind the loss of unionized jobs and more significantly the shift of productivity away from labor more broadly, you can better discuss measures that will address that, and not get distracted by trade issues which are doing more to help jobs and wages for other strongly Democratic constituencies than they are hurting the ones Dems are focused on.
Trade has turned into Democrats Iraq – attacking the wrong target in a effort to show that something is being done.
gogol's wife
@MomSense:
I love that he doesn’t condescend to translate when he speaks Spanish in the speech. It’s the language of your neighbors — you should know enough of it to understand him. Love it!
Renie
Starting placing bets on how many days (or hours) after Trump gets intelligence briefings he blurts something classified out to the public
gogol's wife
@Mnemosyne:
I think LMM is going to like him, don’t you?
aimai
@Baud:I think she is goign to have iconic status but its going to be perceived as grandmotherly or motherly and that is already a very team oriented, group oriented, focus. Also there was all that stuff coming out, maybe Josh Marshall wrote about it, about the ways in which women come into power by forming relationships and nurturing other people’s careers and goals, trading favors, being intersectional. Jon Favreau also described Hillary as someone who was enthusiastic and punctilious in fostering all aspects of the people working with her and their family life. That stuff pays off long term in loyalty, but it also pays off in that those people are not used up but enabled to have long careers in government service.
burnspbesq
After Kaine goes on with Jorge Ramos the first time, it’s over for Trump.
After he goes on with Piolin …
Baud
@aimai: I hope so. It’s something we’ve lost. Like I said, I don’t blame Obama at all. I think he tried to make people realize he couldn’t do it alone. People just weren’t in a mindset to listen.
hovercraft
@Mnemosyne:
Putin has been funding groups around the world to subvert western governments who he deems to be hostile to him, Marie Le Pen, and UKIP are just two said to have received funding. He is said to be licking his chops at the prospect of a Trump presidency. Wiki would not need to be in cahoots with him, they are a well know purity group who think of establishment democrats are worse than the gop. The DNC being in favor of the establishment candidate is just shocking. I can’t believe they were not for the guy who called them corrupt and wanted to blow up their entire system.
Cat48
@Keith G:
Funny! I noticed that about her people too. Quite tenacious.
Tilda Swinton's Bald Cap
This is pretty good.
burnspbesq
Berniacs on my FB feed bitching about being excluded from today’s Rules Committee meeting. Where, I’m sure, they would have sat quietly in the back of the room and allowed the committee to do its work–which included giving them a floor vote on their dumber-than-dumb superdelegates proposal.
People who can’t take yes for an answer piss me off.
? Martin
@aimai: And my view from within California is that Democrats have a more tenuous support from these communities than many people think. It’s not enough to profess support, you have to deliver results. Dems have obviously been much better than the GOP, but they are too inclined to put issues important to minorities on the back burner when it seems politically expedient to do so.
That doesn’t mean that they’re in danger of losing these groups to the GOP, but you hardly have latinos as an enthusiastic voting bloc, volunteering, giving money, etc. Democrats need to pull these groups more enthusiastically into the party by prioritizing their issues more. One way of doing that is to delegate trust to them directly. A representative democracy works when it is truly representative. You can put as many well meaning males in office as you want, but they are no substitute for having women in leadership positions. Same holds true for all other groups. It’s the very principle we founded this nation on.
Mnemosyne
@gogol’s wife:
Oh. Dur. I never was any good with puns.
Kropadope
@aimai:
I don’t really feel like finding it, but I’m sure many of you have seen the pictures going around recently of the Republican interns and the Democratic interns in Congress. The difference in the parties’ apparent staffing decisions are night and day. Though, I think another important facet of how Hillary’s hires would be different from Trump’s is that she would hire people actually interested in their work administering a competent, functional government. Larding up the government’s professional staff with incompetents and anti-government zealots seems to be a crucial part of the Republican policy “the government is bad and if you elect me I’ll prove it.”
My Truth Hurts
Funny how none of the front pagers have mentioned the Wikileaks DNC email dump. Because I have something to say about it.
The Wikileaks dump demonstrate what Bernie Sanders supporters have been saying all along, that the DNC was in the tank for Clinton and actively obstructing Sanders.
If Clinton, a roundly unpopular and eminently beatable candidate loses this election, I expect all the diehard Clinton supporters to apologize for complicity in blocking the single most popular politician in the country, one who handily beat Trump in every poll, and one who would have advanced the progressive agenda with more than just window-dressing.
Sanders supporters like me are, by-and-large willing to vote for Clinton. That’s no excuse. Shame on the DNC, Shame on those complicit within the Clinton campaign, and shame on the people who scoffed at Sanders supporters who smelled the cooking. You’ve all made a Trump Presidency a very real possibility.
Thanks for the good times Balloon Juice. You were really on the right track there for a long while. Take good care of Steve and keep up the good animal rescue work.
burnspbesq
@My Truth Hurts:
Stop right there. You’re obviously too god-damn stupid to be worth paying attention to.
Your “truth?” My God, that’s hilarious.
You wouldn’t know the truth if it took off your pants and went down on you.
Omnes Omnibus
@My Truth Hurts: GBCW?
Villago Delenda Est
@different-church-lady: No, I was shocked at just how panicked and fearful most of the population became. And remain that way, which is why Drumpf is doing as well as he is. The fear, the paranoia, the xenophobia…it’s all been heightened since that day. While if Gore had been President, it wouldn’t have been exploited as it was by the deserting coward and the Dark Lord…it still would have happened, but calmer, more rational, less craven leadership would have been present.
Villago Delenda Est
@My Truth Hurts: Oh, fuck you, gullible tool of Putin’s spooks.
Villago Delenda Est
@gogol’s wife: Kaine and Kasich?
Kropadope
@My Truth Hurts:
…assign a scapegoat. They’ve been telegraphing this move for a year.
Gin & Tonic
@Omnes Omnibus: We should be so lucky.
Mnemosyne
@My Truth Hurts:
Yeah, it was so awesome of Wikileaks to release people’s personal information, including birth dates, social security numbers, and credit card numbers. But I guess those filthy supporters of the Democratic Party deserve to suffer, right, comrade?
And, yeah, it’s so weird that the DNC would start planning for different scenarios of what to do about Bernie once it became obvious that he was going to lose. I realize that planning and preparation was not really the strong suit of Bernie’s campaign, and it looks like the Bernie-or-Busters are a little unclear on the concept, too.
eemom
@Villago Delenda Est:
Actually it might not have.
Mnemosyne
@Villago Delenda Est:
As I said above, I try not to succumb to paranoia, but when Bernie’s campaign manager has worked for Putin’s protégés and Russian hackers release DNC emails that will get the Bernie-or-Busters all riled up right before the convention …
Tilda Swinton's Bald Cap
@My Truth Hurts: Scorching hot take bro !
Aimai
@? Martin: so the no one but a specific type of hispanic will do–if your approach to political engagement is so granular that you are down at the level of “my state needs attention” you have really lost the plot. california hispanics arent going to be excited by anyone not from California so you can’t take a puerto rican. Northern vs southern. Specific history. Dont you see how ridiculous this gets? Maybe california political people should work more closely with the latino and POC voters and non voters but that has nothing to do with the logic of the general election which is a national election focusing on swing states not blue states.
Baud
@Kropadope: We’ll probably blame the rigged system.
Felonius Monk
@My Truth Hurts: Don’t let the door hit you on your way out or you’ll be back here whining about that, too.
hovercraft
@jl:
This morning on AM Joy when one of the panelists compared Trump to Putin, David Corn’s comeback was, at least he didn’t take his shirt off. I shuddered.
eemom
This thread reminds me, what ever happened to Bob in P? Did the BlogLord smite him with teh ban-bolt?
Tripod
Re DNC Wikileaks: I’m shocked to find out the DNC is a den of party loyal vipers.
I’d be sympathetic if that candidate hadn’t spent an entire career at arms length from the party.
Tripod
@eemom:
He’s over at Booman’s.
Villago Delenda Est
@eemom: By “it” I meant 9/11 itself, but, yes, there’s a very good chance that Gore would have not ignored the Clinton National Security teams advice because “Clinton!” the way the deserting coward and the Dark Lord did. That made 9/11 much more possible to pull off. “You’ve covered your ass”, indeed.
Kropadope
@Baud: Media bias is a good one.
hovercraft
@aimai:
THIS.
Stop putting black people on the ballot to get our votes. A crazy black republican woman is did not beat Steve Cohen in TN just because he’s white and the district is largely black. We vote policy and because of that party. We have no natural affinity for democrats, when the republican policies were more in line with our priorities we voted republican, after the CRA and the Southern strategy we switched over and voted for democrats. We are not stupid, we see you.
My Truth Hurts
Arrogant weak insults. About the level of response I expected. You sheep couldn’t think yourselves out of an intellectually constructed paper bag.
Enjoy President Trump! You built that!
My Truth Hurts
@Tripod:
So that somehow makes their lack of principles and subversion of democracy ok? Because Sanders wasn’t always one of them? Lame.
Baud
@Kropadope: Has the virtue of being true.
Kropadope
@Baud: Yeah, well, it’s a double edged sword and a lot of this crowd was loving it when it cut in their favor during the primaries.
Kropadope
@My Truth Hurts:
Come again?
Baud
@Kropadope:
I don’t recall the media being favorable to Hillary in the primaries.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Kropadope: You mean when the press never talked about Bernie!’s past and never pressed him on his tax returns or his wife’s highly questionable dealings at Burlington College or the millionaire friend who gave a powerful Senator’s wife a suspect half a million dollar loan or …
Mnemosyne
@hovercraft:
I was so, so tempted to ask last night’s troll if Hillary should have added diversity to the ticket by making Allen West her VP. After all, the troll did seem to have only one requirement …
Though if that is the same troll who was hanging around here a few years ago, he has more in common with a sincere-but-bugfuck-crazy troll like BiP than he does with right-wing trolls like RtR.
SiubhanDuinne
@eemom:
He comments at BooMan’s place, and I think maybe also at Gin & Tacos (not 100% on the latter, but I know I’ve seen him at Martin’s).
ETA: Waves to Tripod #193.
different-church-lady
@Villago Delenda Est:
3k dead, two of the biggest skyscrapers in the world reduced to rubble, a plane crash into the Pentagon, another probably attempting other targets in Washington, anthrax being sent in the mail… and you’re gonna take people into account for being freaked out by that?
Now that’s where the problem lies: we never got over that initial panic. And a large part of that was because our anxiety allowed assholes to do major asshole things, so they encouraged us to stay fretful. Different leadership at that time might have lead to a different result.
Partially: nationalism and xenophobia exist even without a crisis stoking them on. But he’s also playing just as much on economic anxiety.
In some ways you’re right, and in others you’re not: we have more spine than we’re using. But that’s because we’re being told not to use it.
Kropadope
@Baud: How about her racking up the endorsement of nearly every major news outlet? How about all the untrue conventional wisdom BS? “Bernie thinks he can get elected and simply make sweeping changes by himself” except he actually repeatedly stressed the importance of electing as many allies as possible in Congress. “Bernie only offers pie in the sky and doesn’t have any lesser, more obtainable goals” except that in every area of public policy his stretch goals were accompanied by lesser goals that could make a difference in people’s lives, he often detailed piecemeal steps that could help us work toward his stretch goals, and his entire legislative strategy as a Senator has appeared center around small policy changes while otherwise mostly supporting the Democratic party agenda. “All his voters want is free stuff” they said about Bernie supporters, but also about the supporters of every Democratic nominee as far back as I can remember. They’ll say it about Clinton too.
SiubhanDuinne
@My Truth Hurts:
Until a couple of weeks ago, I had never even heard the phrase “Bye, Felicia!”
But now? Using it all the time.
Baud
@Kropadope: Pretty weak as evidence, especially compared to how they treated Clinton.
Emma
@My Truth Hurts: All right, go already! You’re like a bad vaudeville act!
SiubhanDuinne
@Kropadope:
I think of what Hillary Clinton’s cabinet and White House staff and other appointees will look like, and I am pretty sure they’re going to look like America.
Am reminded of PM Justin Trudeau when he named his cabinet shortly after being elected last autumn. He was questioned on why he had appointed so many women, and without missing a beat, he replied “Because it’s 2015.”
I think Justin and Hillary are going to get on just swell.
Ryan
Hey, he was a Pontiac man. Totally different. j/k, Kaine is fine, though Perez was my pick.
SiubhanDuinne
@Emma:
Reminds me of the bit from Pirates of Penzance:
Kropadope
@Baud:
Yeah, telling people to vote for her while doing everything in their power to vilify her opponent must’ve really hurt her at the ballot box.
Baud
@Kropadope:
No sane candidate would choose how Clinton was treated over how Sanders was treated IMHO.
Peter
@My Truth Hurts: Fuck off.
PatrickG
@Kropadope:
Fixed that for you.
Seriously, though, I thought the problem was that the media ignored Sanders. Or at least the rallies; Weaver and Devine certainly got enough airtime.
Emma
Give me a for instance.
(some lines edited out so as to be polite)
dogwood
@Kropadope:
Just stop it. Bernie could have won the nomination if he had shown any interest in appealing to non-white voters. He didn’t. I think Bernie genuinely believes that issues surrounding race, gender, and even discussions about guns are distractions. That’s fine. It doesn’t make him a bad guy. It simply made it difficult for him to prevail in the primaries. Stop trying to blame that failure on something else.
SiubhanDuinne
@lgerard:
I’m trying to remember. Did Trump even mention Pence in his speech, except in the most perfunctory way?
I think Hillary will be a bit more inclusive on Thursday night.
Villago Delenda Est
@Baud: It was the Superdelegates! They listened to the voters, not the bros!
Jim, Foolish Literalist
How many House and Senate candidates has The Blessed One actually endorsed and/or campaigned for?
Kropadope
@Baud: They’ve treated her like shit since the primaries ended and before they started, true, but they were her one of her biggest assets during the primary. Bernie was lucky if a media outlet was treating him like a joke, most were outright hostile.
Kropadope
@Emma: The New York Times endorsed Hillary Clinton and had daily editorials pushing the conventional wisdom falsehoods regarding Bernie that I enumerated above.
@dogwood:
Because not succeeding is the same thing as not trying.
Often asserted, was never true.
Emma
@Kropadope: Point us to one. Please. Give me a link.
Baud
@Kropadope: Your memory is different from mine.
Baud
And if endorsements are evidence of bias, then I guess Trump will have a legitimate case for media bias.
dogwood
@Kropadope:
Bernie was lucky the media didn’t dig very deep into his background or some of his family’s shenanigans.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I think it was Glenn Thrush who said he spent four months trying to get Bernie! to stop being ignored and the campaign never responded. Given how some of his longer interviews went, it might have been one of the smarter moves Bernie! made.
PatrickG
@dogwood: Hey, the media was relentless in demanding Sanders release his tax returns. /s
dogwood
@Kropadope:
Hillary was a NY senator. Are you really surprised The Times endorsed her? Why is that so offensive to you?
Aleta
Does anyone have a link for or summary of the extent of what was reveled in the Clinton campaign emails against Sanders? Were there a number of different people and emails planning to attack him for atheism? Was there other stuff? Thanks.
Peter
@Kropadope: Are we remembering the same primary campaign? The one where the media treated Bernie with fucking kid gloves while taking every chance they could get to slag Hillary?
Fuck off.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Aleta: Guardian says it was one email.
Also, the Hated Debbie Wasserman Schultz apparently told them to knock it off
This is more troubling, based on the ID theft aspect of the story.
Uncle Cosmo
@burnspbesq: Well played, burnsie! Couldn’t have said it better myself. And I am so stealing this–
–& filing it away for liberal application whenever a fuckhead like Mah Toof Hoyts crawls into this blog.
Peter
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Can anyone name a Wikileaks release that wasn’t a total nothingburger? I can’t think of any.
Kropadope
@dogwood: Did I say I was offended it endorsed her? I simply cited the endorsement as proof that the paper’s editorial board supported her. Having a hard time drawing a line from one thing to the other? Or do you just feel like attributing beliefs and attitudes to me that I don’t actually have?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Kropadope: How many House and Senate candidates has Saint Bernard endorsed and/or campaigned for as part of his Revolution! and/or Movement.
Please provide links.
Uncle Cosmo
@Peter: YPISIDNT. But what the hell: So say we all.
jl
I’m looking forward to pix from the BJ HRC/Bernie fight club reunion meet-ups.
Kropadope
@Emma: You want one? Sure. Here. There are plenty out there. Krugman in particular rode this hobbyhorse into the ground and these attitudes permeated the entire MSM.
dogwood
I remember watching Obama address the crew at campaign headquarters after securing the nomination in ’08. He thanked them, and apologized for not being as good a candidate as they deserved. He told them that had they lost it would have been ok because they would have turned around and worked for Hillary. And he would have. There would have been no whining or finger pointing. That’s what you do when you really care about issues and good governance. Unfortunately, that’s not in Bernie’s wheelhouse because he doesn’t seem to take the great responsibility that comes with leadership seriously. Nursing grievances is for people who only see politics as some sort of cult of personality where your opponent is evil and your hero is above reproach. I only know a couple of Sanders dead-enders, so I don’t know if this is universally true, but they are perpetual bitchers, moaners and grudge holders in every aspect of their lives.
Emma
@Kropadope:
This was your answer when I asked you for a for instance of bias. I would be not wrong in assuming that you considered the endorsement a proof of bias. But ok, I’ll grant you that’s not what you meant.
dogwood
@Kropadope:
You cited the NYT as proof that the media was in the tank for her. Since she’s a New Yorker that doesn’t appear to be much of an example.
Kropadope
@Emma: The endorsement doesn’t necessarily reflect bias, but vilification of Bernie certainly counts. There’s definitely a line that can be crossed there. Also, you didn’t use the word bias in your question, neither did my statement which you used to frame it. Following back, Baud originally framed it around favorability.
eemom
@Villago Delenda Est:
I meant 9/11 also, i.e., what you said. Don’t think Gore would have blown that shit off.
Baud
@Kropadope: No I didn’t. I originally just said media bias. # 196.
ETA:. Actually, I said rigged system. You said media bias at 196.
Emma
@Kropadope: What was a lie? Certainly Mr. Krugman doesn’t like Mr. Sanders’ economic ideas. He’s an economist, so he (might) know whereof he speaks. I’m no expert, but I do know there are a number of economists with differing ideas on the subject. But there is one thing he gets right: I never saw a plan of attack from Mr. Sanders. “Break up the banks” is an idea, not a plan.
When he quotes Mr. Sanders he properly links to the transcript/interview, so we can see for ourselves. What Mr. Sanders said, he said, and there are no take-backs when you’re speaking publicly.
The tone was definitely harsh, but Mr. Krugman is known for not playing politely. When he went after Obama during the stimulus battle, his tone was the same.
dogwood
@Kropadope:
Well Krugman and the Times editorial board were all in for Hillary in ’08, and that didn’t work out so well for her. You are grasping at straws. Maybe Bernie and his fans should look first within to analyze what might have gone wrong instead of blaming anyone and anything but the campaign itself.
Kropadope
@dogwood: Yeah, well, I read the New York Times and since it is posted in text format on the internet, it is easier to find and link to examples than it would be for, say, the cable networks. I was asked for a single example, no other qualifiers.
You’re trying to move goalposts someone else set and you still attributed attitudes to me regarding the endorsement which I do not feel and didn’t express. Unfortunately, I’m getting used to that.
Baud
@dogwood: Oddly, this whole conversation started because he said Clinton supporters would look for scapegoats if she lost.
PatrickG
@dogwood:
They might start with the assumption that being unable to defeat the DNC in bare-knuckle combat means a win in the general election was even possible… I mean, c’mon, the DNC’s unofficial logo is “Wait, we exist?”.
ETA: By which I mean it’s the campaigns that make or break things. The DNC’s role seems to be almost secretarial in nature. OFA was & Victory Fund is pretty independent. (slight edit for temporal clarity).
dogwood
@Baud:
Exactly.
PatrickG
@Kropadope: If you’re going to the cable networks to find examples of bias in favor of Hillary, I just don’t even know what to say. I’m with Baud: you clearly remember things differently than I do.
Baud
@PatrickG:
They’re like Obama. Hopelessly inept but masters at cunning.
dogwood
@PatrickG:
You’ve got that right. Same could be said for the RNC. Neither the DNC nor the RNC has much power at all.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@Baud: “The Democratic Party has destroyed the country” is how I heard someone express it this morning.
:-/
Cheers,
Scott.
(Yeah, she’s still in the tank for Bernie. ;-)
jl
I think I read that a Bernie-view is scheduled on a Sunday talky tomorrow, ABC or CNN. Why not wait until we get new material to fight over?
Baud
@jl: Based on his endorsement, I don’t think Bernie himself is the issue anymore.
PatrickG
@jl: Because reading/commenting in this thread is easier than arguing with friends who sincerely believe that Sanders would have won if it weren’t for that pesky DWS?
This is my fortress of lurking solitude, damn it.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@PatrickG: I don’t watch Fox or CNN, but on MSNBC Hayes was pretty much in the tank for Sanders, O’Donnell hates Clinton, and Maddow wasn’t exactly hostile. Joy Reid was pretty Bernie-skeptic, but Andrea Mitchell more than balanced that out with her Respectable VSP’s flogging of the all important “optics” and “appearances”.
FlipYrWhig
I don’t remember a single example of the supposedly widespread “vilification” of Bernie Sanders by the media until his complete botch job of the Daily News interview. I remember a lot of stories about how his energetic rallies and excited young people would pose a challenge for Hillary Clinton, who had coughed up her frontrunner status to a charismatic challenger once before and could well do so again. I don’t think the media liked Bernie Sanders per se, but the media really liked pondering what they thought was an enthusiasm gap. I would say fairly confidently that this pattern held, with media coverage slanting towards horse race-ish stories about how likely it was that stodgy Hillary Clinton would choke again, until the New York results, which seemed to put an end to the assumption that the big rallies meant impending victory.
Kropadope
@Baud: I said media bias against Hillary at 196. Bias against Bernie was stronger and more prevalent. This is part of why I’m trying to separate the concept of the pro-Hillary endorsements across much of the MSM from the caricaturization of Bernie which is what truly reflected the media bias. It’s not because the media likes Hillary or wants to do her any favors, she just occupies a slightly more favorable position than Bernie on a tiered media bias spectrum.
Her campaign and many of her supporters took advantage of this during the primaries; but now that they’re over, she’s the dirty socialist.
Baud
@Kropadope: Putting endorsements aside then, we’re back to having different memories of the primary. The media as a whole was hostile to Hillary and, if anything, did not pay as much attention to Bernie as they should have.
Technocrat
@Kropadope:
I’m guessing both camps have a different meaning of “bias”. If you’re a Clintonite, you see “she’s an untrustworthy hag” as bias. If you’re a Bernfeeler, you see “he can’t possibly win” as bias. To some degree, both camps agree with the unfavorable portrayal of the other side, and see it as “truth” instead of bias.
Jeffro
There’s nothing more to argue about – Clinton won, Sanders lost, Trump is the opponent, Kaine is on the team, LET’S. GO.
Even some far-left FB friends are responding to the Kaine selection as proof that this is a team that knows what it’s doing, especially after that disgusting hate-fest from Cleveland last week.
I’m all in and I don’t have a lot of time to console Bernistas who don’t understand how politics works. Same with people who think their vote for Stein or Johnson will mean anything or advance their causes in any way.
Let’s. Go.
J R in WV
@rikyrah:
Note to you and Luvvie: squirrels have very short hair. So whatever is on Trump’s head almost certainly isn’t a squirrel.
No suggestions from me about what that might be on his head. I try to learn all I can about wildlife, and I don’t think that hair occurs in nature at all.
Otherwise a wonderful piece by Luvvie.
That is all.
Jeffro
@Technocrat:
You’re right, and this is why it’s important to not waste a whole lot of time on it. I think we’ve got 107-108 days left ’til the election – it’s time to get voters registered, get phones ringing, and then get people to the polls on November 8 (come on Pokemon Go!, help us out w/ that!!)
Kropadope
@dogwood:
I do blame the campaign for many mistakes and have discussed them here, but that doesn’t negate the existence of institutional factors that made things more difficult for the campaign. Hillary did run a better campaign but, in doing so, she took advantage of some of those factors. The most powerful among those was a biased media that would rather talk about Bernie’s crowds and their demands for free stuff than his actual proposals. Problem is, as the Democratic nominee, HRC’s supporters are now the ones who just want free stuff. So, congratulations on helping legitimize that particular empty-headed criticism, guys.
Ruckus
@J R in WV:
I’ve suggested that it might be a possum, but no self respecting possum would be caught alive or dead on top of that. It is possible that it is not natural but that means that someone had to actually make it and I find that to be less likely than finding a non self respecting possum. It has been thrown out there that it is actually a comb over, which makes the most sense, given that it takes a pretty vain man to think that looks better than just being bald and we know drumpf’s vanity level is off the charts.
J R in WV
@jl:
What happens if Pence decides not to stand for Trump’s BS anymore, says “I’m going back to Indiana, screw you and your messed up campaign!”
What could Trump possibly do to overcome that? He would just be over at that point. And Pence would look like the smartest guy in the Republican party. The only smart buy, really.
Well, him and those folks who cut up their Republican membership cards and mailed them in to RNC HQ. Where’s my Democratic membership card, by the way?
eemom
@Ruckus:
Self-hating possum?
Barbara
@J R in WV: He would be vilified the way Cruz has been. It’s like hanging out with people whose lives revolve around drugs. The guy who says no is worse than different — he implicitly challenges their core pathology. Pence is not brave enough to walk alone.
J R in WV
I’m not a politician, but I do follow politics. I think the media was all in for Senator Sanders until he blew his long policy interview with the NY Times and IIRC with the Washington Post. He showed them all that he had ideas and desires, but no plan to strategically get to the places he wanted the country to go.
Hillary, on the other hand, has somewhat more modest goals, but common-sense plans to get there, which looks much more attractive to everyone who agrees with any of either candidate’s goals.
And when it became obvious that Hillary was going to win more delegates with many more individual votes across the whole nation than Senator Sanders was going to win, that was the end of it for his campaign. He lost. The end.
He has been treated very well as the runner up, and his supporters should appreciate that. He has had input to the party platform at least as much as he earned in votes and delegates. He has endorsed Secretary Clinton with some enthusiasm, and his supporters should get on board or get the hell out of the way.
I started contributing to Hillary long before Sanders became a possibility, and I’ve stepped that level of contributing way up (comparatively) since Trump became the obvious Republican nominee. Well, really even before that. I think Hillary will make a good president. So that’s why I’m supporting her.
Choosing Senator Kaine just underlines what a good president she will be.
Quinerly
@J R in WV:
Great post! Thank you.
aimai
@PatrickG: He’s very confused. Lets be clear about this. There were numerous objective studies showing that coverage of Hillary Clinton was universally hostile. She didn’t win the primary because the press were in the tank for her–that’s simply absurd on its face. She won the primary because her voters cared more about her than they did about popular perceptions of her.
J R in WV
@aimai:
This!
@Quinerly:
Thanks!
@Barbara:
Yes, he would be vilified, but he’s already being publicly humiliated by Trump. How long will he smile and take it. He could just say “I’m done with doing this with you. Either I’m going to campaign alone or I’m going home to wait to see if “we” win this thing. Best of luck, boss!”
What could Trump do? Pence has power in this relationship. He could destroy Trump’s campaign if he decided that would be better than belittled in public by the “future” president. Interesting to see how long he puts up with Trump’s current relationship with him. They are partners, even if Trump is having a hard time adjusting to it.
Just One More Canuck
@Omnes Omnibus: Dare to dream
FIBark
@My Truth Hurts: You’ll soon find out this is NOT a liberal site.
redshirt
@FIBark:
So what kind of site is it? Neo-liberal?
Althea
@Quinerly: I’d tap that!
Althea
@dogwood: After avoiding blogs for the last few years, I have, for some reason, been spending some limited time on Gawker of all things. I know I deserve whatever scorn you can heap upon me for that. Again, I have no explanation, really. The only reason I brought it up is because of all the raging over those hacked DNC emails that is going on over there right now. Counterbalanced by some more reasonable, reality-based commenters.
Still, the idealism of “the young” is kinda laughable. At the same time, I can relate to how they are feeling in a way, even though I didn’t experience that kind of idealism until my early forties when I became absolutely enraged about the Iraq war and thought I could somehow do something to stop it. But I’ve learned a lot since then and I’m so glad I’m over it for mental health reasons. In the end, I realized, especially after the Obama presidency, that change comes at a very slow pace and if you don’t have a little patience you run the risk of driving yourself to the point of insanity with all that anger and frustration.
Althea
@J R in WV: Did you see his face when Trump, the very day after accepting the nomination, began revisiting the Cruz conspiracies and the whole Melania v Heidi thing? He was nodding a little like “yeah, sure, this is legitimate behavior” but all the time I could see him squirming inside. This is going to be an enjoyable ride.
sukabi
@David ?▶️Hillary/Harley Quinn 2016▶️? Koch: my mom 82 yoww, always dem, but not “involved” was rooting for Hillary to pick Warren, but was pretty excited about Kaine after hearing his speech.
sukabi
@Althea: and that’s going to be Pence’s tell. Is he a grab power “at any cost” kinda guy, or does he actually have a sense of shame and a moral compass.
moderateindy
Cole you are completely full of crap. All I heard on this blog was how the only thing that mattered was getting elected. Was that not one of your arguments for supporting Clinton? Tell me how this pick helps? I believe she was already leading in VA. Is it because he speaks Spanish? Because I’m pretty sure that there isn’t exactly a need to worry about how the hispanic voting block is gonna vote this time.
He will help her govern? Seriously? I think it’s pretty universal thinking that unless the house turns, and the dems get 60 seats in the Senate, the Repubs will not pass crap, so what, exactly, is he going to help govern?
If being elected is all that matters, then Kaine does nothing to increase those odds. Instead it reinforces her biggest weakness, the perception that she’s a bought and paid for corporate shill that represents more of the same. She blew an opportunity to pick someone that might drive younger voters to the polls.
Kaine is not a bad guy, but it was a stupid pick, pure and simple. The average voter could care less who you pick as Veep, but we’re talking about giving a demographic that does actually care a reason to not stay home. Quit justifying it. It’s a bad pick in the context of this election.