I love this:
As they say, read the whole thing.
Reader Interactions
192Comments
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Come for the politics, stay for the snark.
If senate republicans had any shame, they’d die of it.
The poor and middle-class pay taxes, the rich pay accountants, the wealthy pay politicians.
Come for the politics, stay for the snark.
Giving up is unforgivable.
Republicans choose power over democracy, every day.
“The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits.”
It’s all just conspiracy shit beamed down from the mothership.
Republicans are the party of chaos and catastrophe.
The cruelty is the point; the law be damned.
So it was an October Surprise A Day, like an Advent calendar but for crime.
Let there be snark.
Wow, I can’t imagine what it was like to comment in morse code.
Trumpflation is an intolerable hardship for every American, and it’s Trump’s fault.
Every decision we make has lots of baggage with it, known or unknown.
The willow is too close to the house.
75% of people clapping liked the show!
They punch you in the face and then start crying because their fist hurts.
Hi god, it’s us. Thanks a heap, you’re having a great week and it’s only Thursday!
Well, whatever it is, it’s better than being a Republican.
Disagreements are healthy; personal attacks are not.
Republicans firmly believe having an abortion is a very personal, very private decision between a woman and J.D. Vance.
Shut up, hissy kitty!
Come on, media. you have one job. start doing it.
The truth is, these are not very bright guys, and things got out of hand.
gogol's wife
That’s great!
Bobby Thomson
If she gives this speech on Thursday I will sell all my worldly possessions and follow her.
Dan Seiter
Love this so hard. (I think that’s how the kids say it, at any rate.)
schrodinger's cat
I have never liked how politicians wives are treated, especially the wives of the Presidential candidates.
eclare
Love it! Thank you!
Miss Bianca
Oh, I love this. I love it already before I even READ the whole thing.
Amir Khalid
Wait. I thought her middle name was spelled “Rodham’.
JPL
Great rant! MSM would need a fainting couch, if she delivered a speech like this. If Trump did, MSM would yawn.
Robin G.
This is the Hillary I want to see on the campaign trail. We know she’s in there! Let Hillary be Hillary!
Joel
On par with the Shaquille O’Neal classic.
Punchy
How long until CNN’s Dumb Lemon takes this at face and reports that HillClin has a very naughty choice of words?
Ryan
I have a particular set of skills…
Fair Economist
This is particularly on target:
Steeplejack
That’s some “wish a motherfucker would” quality stuff there.
NotMax
Crude and repellent.
dm
Reminds me (in a good way) of Charles Pierce putting words in the mouth of Mitt Romney.
eclare
@Steeplejack: Amen.
guachi
Every paragraph had me laughing (out loud, even!)
This is my favorite part:
“I’ve spent my life clawing my way into a system that’s terrified of change. A system that just wants to let rich white dudes be rich white dudes. And holy shit, you guys, I could not have picked a better opponent for my final boss battle.”
So, so true. Remove the profanity and it’s good to go for her acceptance speech. The ‘final boss battle’ bit has to stay.
Steeplejack
@NotMax:
I have plumped the cushions on the fainting couch, sir. Here are your pearls. Tea at 4:00, as usual?
zmulls
And still several of the comments below the article are taking it at face value, as if she actually wrote it….sigh….
comrade scott's agenda of rage
Needs to be read with the Theme From Shaft playing in the background.
Prescott Cactus
@Amir Khalid: Maiden name is Rodh.
Middle name is goddamn, though sometimes she capitalizes it.
Frankensteinbeck
@Steeplejack:
While you’re at it, could you bring my vapors and a notary for my concern?
hueyplong
In fairness, the “crude and repellent” might have referred to the site. I know it’s what attracted me.
Revrick
Hillarious
slag
I’d love to see some detailed posts from recovering Clinton haters about how they got over their Clinton hatred. Like deep dive kind of stuff. What caused the hatred, what it took to get over it, how long, etc… Such an exercise might be quite valuable from a social/psychological perspective.
Steeplejack
@Frankensteinbeck:
Very good, sir.
:: silently vanishes ::
Mary
I wish they’d added that her cookie recipe actually beat Barbara Bush’s recipe in that stupid magazine contest. Because of course if Hillary is forced to bake cookies you better believe they are going to be the best motherfucking cookies ever, just on principle.
Felanius Kootea
That was awesome!
schrodinger's cat
She is the champion my friends. She is a bit hard to like but her sheer resilience in face of relentless attacks has won me over.
NotMax
@Steeplejack
Please. With scones.
May make some feel smug for a moment or two, but an exceedingly cheap thrill.
James E Powell
@zmulls:
This is not a good time to be reading comment sections.
Poopyman
@NotMax:
That’s the only kind I ever get any more.
In not-unrelated news, the FBI is on it:
It’s out there, people.
Elizabelle
Hillary Rodham Clinton, channeled by Samuel L. Jackson.
With 17 “fucks”, but who is counting?
Find it a bit too in your face, but good to see pushback at the idea that HRC has just recently arrived at the issues.
Uh, no.
And agree the GOP is skeered of her. Even if they won’t admit it. What’s appalling is how much their caricature has been taken up by the general public. Tired of the “hold your nose and vote” business, because that is not fair.
Brachiator
@JPL:
Funny. Trump kinda has delivered a speech like this.
Even though he is a brainless bully, he loves to boast that he is too tough.
I would really like to see Hillary kick his butt.
Rob
Awesome! Thanks for posting this.
AliceBlue
@dm:
So true. I’ll never forget “I’m Mitt Romney, bitches, and I’m all you’ve got.”
schrodinger's cat
@Elizabelle: I just got into a verbal spat with a friend who worships at the altar of both-sides-do-it. She is very anti-Hillary and spooked by the violence of the last few weeks.
kd bart
New poll out in Georgia shows Trump only leads 45.5% to 44.2%.
http://www.wsbtv.com/news/politics/trump-hillary-poll/411369450
The Thin Black Duke
@schrodinger’s cat: Your friend does understand that if Trump get elected, the violence is going to get worse, right?
Dork
@Poopyman: At what point does the Trump Campaign’s intense coziness with a foreign adversary constitute a potential national security issue?
Hahahahahaha! I crack myself up! As if the MSM cares about illegal Russian influence on a national election! LOOK! That girl has Sanders tatted on her chesty area!
dmsilev
Advance copy of the finale of Clinton’s speech on Thursday:
Elizabelle
@schrodinger’s cat: My sympathies. Do you get a sense why the “both sides” business resonates so with her? And can she tell you why she’s anti-HRC?
Kay
I don’t care why he has to release information on his financials, but he should have to release it, because everyone else does and despite his belief that he’s a special snowflake, that’s not fair.
Hillary Clnton has been investigated to within an inch of her life. They literally spent an entire year on the email server. I would like to know why this man gets special treatment that no other US politician gets.
The morons who are chanting “lock her up” need to come clean. Now. We don’t know the first thing about the Trump family’s financial arrangements, and it’s relevant. I want Andrea Mitchell hand-wringing over the national security implications of debts to Russian oligarchs. If this were Clinton or Obama it would be wall to wall speculation and they all know it.
OzarkHillbilly
@Elizabelle:
It may not be fair, but Obama is the only person in any election I voted for that I actually liked. When people say to me, “But I don’t like her.” I can honestly say, “So what? Neither do I**, but I respect the hell out of the woman and that’s why I voted for her.”
** ‘not liking’ does not mean ‘dislike’, but either way it is quite beside the point
schrodinger's cat
@Elizabelle: She is isolated and that has made her paranoid. She doesn’t want to vote for Trump because she is basically a decent person. But his message of fear is resonating with her.
She moved from the east coast to be with her mom with whom she had a terrible relationship. The mom passed away recently, and I think they never worked out their issues.
Miss Bianca
@Mary: Heh heh heh. Excellent point, I had forgotten that!
Technocrat
@dmsilev:
well-played, my friend
schrodinger's cat
@The Thin Black Duke: Right now she is not thinking logically.
dmsilev
So Bill Clinton is going to campaign for Hillary….
…in Utah.
May be a head fake, may be real, but seriously. Utah?
schrodinger's cat
@dmsilev: Polite Mormons, don’t like the New Yawk boor.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@dmsilev: there’s been a persistent string of stories that Mormons reeeeaaaaallllly don’t like Trump. Among other things, they’re very sensitive to minority religions being singled out. Jeff Flake has been sounding Hillary-curious
Miss Bianca
@dmsilev: Oh please, oh, please…with a big, Cruella deVille style, “Ah ha ha ha HAAA!!” at the end.
With the Valkyries. Please God, tell me there will be Valkyries crouching at Dark Queen Galadriel-Hillary’s feet.
Chyron HR
@dmsilev:
He’ll probably cancel the trip once he finds out he’s not allowed to have more than one wife there.
dmsilev
@schrodinger’s cat: Yeah, pretty much. I thought “abrupt nature” was an interesting way of describing him.
Elizabelle
@schrodinger’s cat: Poor thing. She needs a hug as much as a kick in the pants, does she not?
I think she will come around, with your friendship and help. You haz your work cut out. Persuasion kitteh.
The Thin Black Duke
@schrodinger’s cat: I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to be insensitive.
dmsilev
@Miss Bianca: It would be so so cool if Clinton made her entrance on Thursday riding a horse, wearing a mail shirt and horned helmet, clutching a spear, etc., as Ride of the Valkyries booms through the hall.
Ultraviolet Thunder
@dmsilev:
Utahns are very displeased with Trump’s multiple marriages, ethics, behavior, mouth, etc. Red Utah could go purple/blue this November, At least for President.
schrodinger's cat
@The Thin Black Duke: No apologies necessary. Her David Broder/Ron Fournier impersonation was getting on my last nerve.
Matt McIrvin
@Kay: I’m wondering what Julian Assange’s big bombshell that he’s supposedly sitting on for later, the one that will send Hillary to jail, could possibly be. It’s possible that it’s something completely fraudulent, in which case it could be absolutely anything.
When people speculate, they seem to fantasize about some kind of scenario in which the Russians got incredibly damaging sensitive intel like identities of secret agents off of her home email server, but it’s entirely on the basis of “what’s the worst thing we could imagine?”
philpm
A good chunk of the responses to that just prove the point in the article that voters are some dumb motherfuckers. The parody challenged really need some help.
Anoniminous
Utah went 74.62% to 24.69% for Romney in 2012. If it flips to Clinton pork will be roosting in the SLC Tabernacle and the Mormon Choir will be rapping Jay Z during services.
JustRuss
Pure awesomeness. Thanks for sharing Cole.
dr. bloor
@dmsilev:
Doesn’t hurt to send him around the country to tap on the pipes here and there, maybe make the Republicans throw money where they otherwise wouldn’t. Plenty of time for him to wear down the folks in Ohio, Florida and Pennsylvania later this summer.
Paul in KY
@Steeplejack: Assuming master will also wish for the stick to be removed from his rectum?
FlipYrWhig
@schrodinger’s cat: Even if you believed in Trump’s worldview of impending doom, why wouldn’t you prefer Clinton to confront it?
Miss Bianca
@dmsilev: That’s my new fantasy! Wait, have you posted that before? I know I’ve got that scenario lodged in my head from *someone* here!
schrodinger's cat
@Elizabelle: Yep, your assessment is accurate.
slag
@dmsilev: They do this every cycle. Pretend that people actually care about the things they say they care about. I’m never entirely sure why.
And, in this case it seems particularly pointless since, Hillary, regardless of her many good qualities, is not likely to create a wave.
Face
No, it’s not. It’s just not. Because Republicans will bitch, moan, complain, cuss, feign misery, act disinterested and concerned, but the one thing they always always always do–more predictably than gravity–is revert back to voting their for tribe. They’ll internally justify it one way or the other, but there’s a zilch percent chance that Mormons accept HRC’s SCOTUS nominees and thus zero chance Utah goes blue, or even pink.
Cleek’s Law is universal and binding in all situations.
eric
@Miss Bianca: aim higher
Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And She who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness She judges and makes war. Her eyes were like a flame of fire, and on her head were many crowns. She had a name written that no one knew except Herself. She was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and Her name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Her on white horses. Now out of Her mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it She should strike the nations. And She Herself will rule them with a rod of iron. She Herself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And She has on Her robe and on Her thigh a name written:
QUEEN OF QUEENS AND
LORD OF LORDS.
Paul in KY
@Anoniminous: But if we can make them waste a lot of money there, it’s a win for us!!!!
dmsilev
@Miss Bianca: I think I posted something like that over at LG&M, but not here. Or maybe I did post it here; they say memory is the second thing to go, and I can’t remember what the first thing is.
Mnemosyne
Ugh. I’m getting into a Facebook spat with a friend of my brother in law’s who’s a Bernfeeler. She’s been fed a pack of lies about Hillary and it’s SO frustrating to watch her regurgitate them.
fedupwithhypocrisy
@slag: Read: Blinded by the Right: the Conscience of an Ex-Conservative, by David Brock, which confirms Hillary’s claim that there was a “vast, right-wing conspiracy” against her husband.
eric
@Paul in KY: plus, it sets the narrative. And, you have so many fantastic surrogates, that a stop by each on a fly over to Nevada and Arizona makes some sense, even if the fundraiser is right by the airport.
manyakitty
@Miss Bianca: You might have seen it at Wonkette, as they have a similar t-shirt for sale.
Mnemosyne
@Face:
I’d rather try than not try. The stakes are too high to play the 50%+1 game this year.
Gin & Tonic
@dmsilev: Yeah, you know full well what the first thing is, you just don’t want to admit it.
Origuy
Several Mormons on my Facebook feed, granted they are mostly liberal ones. Most Mormon men and many women learn a foreign language and do their mission out of the country. The percentage with passports is probably considerably higher than the average American. They don’t like Trump’s xenophobia.
peach flavored shampoo
@Face: Can we call that rhetorical analysis process Cleek’s Razor?
schrodinger's cat
@FlipYrWhig: She buys into the MSM caricature of HRC, that’s why.
hovercraft
@dmsilev:
Utah, Georgia, Arizona, this is gonna be a great year for the gop with all the new states that Trump opens up. For democrats, even if we can;t win them, force them to waste time and money defending them.
slag
@Anoniminous: Yeah, but Rmoney’s Utah margin is easily attributable to the special underpants gnome.
My favorite stat re: Utah is this one:
McCain still won that state by 28%.
WereBear
Since I have wanted the two parties to “stake out what they stand for” and especially the Democrats to stop playing the Republican Lite game, this extreme contrast is good news.
Just wanted to drop by and say Hey.
My health things have taken a turn for the severe (bad news) but my team has come up with a possible diagnosis (good news) and now I have a long (for me) trip to the place where they test for it. Because of the tiring drive, I will have to stay two nights in a place no one puts down on their wish list, so I am loading up with the digital books.
Yes, there is a state forest nearby, but I have so much gorgeous state forest at home it does not attract me. And I’m likely to be very tired the whole time.
Oh, and Expedia.com is now on my naughty list. I think “possible bedbugs” is a good reason to cancel my first booking, right?
Miss Bianca
@eric: Damb. I mean, *damb*.
@WereBear: Oh, no! Hoping for the very best outcome for you!
hovercraft
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
The religious minority thing is what really bothers them, their experience with persecution because of their faith is pretty recent, so they are recoiling from the vulgar yam. I doubt she can win it , but many may stay home because they can’t abide either. Salt Lake City is the bluest part of the state, so with high turnout there, hey you never know.
catclub
@Joel: Also on par with Charlie Pierce’s Mitt Romney speech for 2012 to the GOP.
“I am all you’ve got. Get used to it.”
Fair Economist
@dmsilev:
Utah has a swing Congressional district. This is a perfectly rational decision even without expecting massive changes to the map. Of course spinning it as “Utah is in play” has lots of benefits, and, who knows, maybe it will be.
slag
@fedupwithhypocrisy: Yeah. But that’s an insider’s account. Sui generis.
I want a series by average joe Hillary haters who can summon the level of introspection it takes to explore their biases and articulate the process of overcoming. The results may still be too deviant from the norm but may yield some insight.
Kay
@Matt McIrvin:
To believe that don’t you have to believe they not only got identities of secret agents but that SHE or someone in the state dept, also documented this breech? Because Russians (or Assange) saying “we got the identities off Clinton’s server” isn’t credible. It’s even less credible now that there’s suspicions that they’re in the tank for Trump.
Mnemosyne
@WereBear:
Oh no! I hope all goes well (or as well as can be expected). You know we’re all pulling for you.
FlipYrWhig
@schrodinger’s cat: But I thought the caricature of Clinton was that she was ruthless, maybe lying and/or corrupt. If you think the world is falling apart, don’t you want someone ruthless on your side? And why would the lying/corrupt part even matter? I’ve said before that I think if Sanders had prevailed the media caricature would be that he was a decent fellow but dithering and over his head, like they did with Carter, and then if terrorism or rampant criminality happened, the conventional wisdom would be that Sanders couldn’t handle it. Softness and indecision aren’t exactly Hillary Clinton’s problems. Just by your friend’s own logic it doesn’t seem like there’s anything deterring her from favoring Hillary Clinton. In fact I would argue that your friend isn’t rejecting Hillary Clinton because of something related to the climate of fear of recent days but for totally different reasons that she’s ret-conning into recent developments to make a better story. But I don’t know this person so I can’t really say more than that, obviously…
peach flavored shampoo
@slag: any idea what was purchased in Utah for $250? 100 yard signs? A sit down with a local family at the SLC McDonalds (7 wives +28 kids)?
WereBear
@Miss Bianca: @Mnemosyne: Thank you, I have missed everyone, too.
I would really like to move beyond I dunno from medical people.
hovercraft
OT But these people are so stupid it’s criminal
RNC Brings Omarosa To Philly To Respond To Clinton Foreign Policy
EDIT Chect out the twitter mockery at the link. TPM
schrodinger's cat
@FlipYrWhig: She was an Obama voter both times he ran. She just thinks HRC and Bill are icky and voting for her would be against her principles (her reasons, not mine).
goblue72
@dmsilev: Trump’s lead in Utah is only 5 points – he’s pretty unpopular in the state. There’s still no way he loses Utah, but if it forces him to spend some resources there, that’s a good thing. However, given that Trump is not a normal candidate, but instead a bombastic gambler – he might just as well call Clinton’s bluff and ignore Utah, feeling that he’s not losing Utah – and it doesn’t matter if he wins by 1 point or 10 points – its the same electoral votes either way.
Meanwhile, white men without a college degree – who make up an outsized portion of the participating electorate – are going stronger for Trump than they have for Republican candidates in the last several elections. To the point where the Midwest states – PA, Ohio, Wisconsin, Iowa – are all at risk of voting for Trump. Clinton is doing 14 points WORSE than Obama amongst white men without a college degree and 3 points worse than Obama did amongst white women without a college degree. That is a BIG problem. She’s doing about even with Obama amongst nonwhites and Hispanics, regardless of education, a little better amongst white men with college degrees, and 9 points better amongst white women with college degrees.
In a scenario where Clinton takes Nevada, NH, and say North Carolina, but Trump takes Iowa, Ohio, Wisconsin and PA, then it all comes down to Florida. Put North Carolina in Trump, and move Wisconsin and Iowa back to Clinton, and same thing – all down to Florida.
Dirty little open secret is that while we think of the white men as the “GOP” voters, truth is that the Democrats are highly dependent on white voters without a college degree (the “working class”) in the Midwest as part of the Democratic firewall states. Ohio has often been swingy, but PA, Wisconsin, Michigan, and Iowa have been critical Dem states (in the last 7 Presidential elections, both PA and Iowa have voted Dem in election except one)
Who Will Be President?
But please, let’s keep deriding our left flank while also running around alienating swing voters who are Trump-curious. We don’t run a national popular vote in this country, but a state by state battle – each with its own demographics.
The Demographic That is Hurting Clinton
piratedan
yet I think AZ is actually in play this year… multiple factors…
Grandpa Mavarick’s shtick is getting old, not only is he in trouble from the right, he actually has a credible challenger this year in Ms. Kirkpatrick
The Mormon block in the Phoenix burbs is not as monolithic as it used to be thanks to Mr. Trump
The Arpaio sheen is losing its luster thanks to the investigations into his department
The GOTV strategy of getting hispanic and native american voters for the state Dem party has been in progress now for over two years… courtesy of Mr. Trump, that is proceding apace
The current Gov is a Koch Brothers adherent and he done the usual bang up job in screwing over the citizenry at the behest of the multinational tit.
The local state house is probably unreachable thanks to the gerrymandering that has been done, but a couple of the congressional races are doable to send a majority Dem congregation…
Kay
@Matt McIrvin:
This is his problem:
It’s one of the things that bothered me most about the ACORN “sting”. The videos were presented as an unassailable record, like hours of security footage with a timestamp is treated. That wasn’t what they were. They were selectively edited and anyone can do that.
rikyrah
that was great, Cole.
hovercraft
@FlipYrWhig:
Well now those are admirable qualities for a man, after all Trump has told us that he is tough and greedy and manipulative, all of which he is going to use for our benefit, at the same time usually in the same speech he accuses Hillary of those same qualities and they are seen as flaws. Attributes are good or bad based on the gender of the person being described. A devious, cunning, or ruthless man, is a powerful probably rich man who is admired, those same atttributes in a woman and she is a nasty bitch who is reviled.
Much of the animosity and criticism of Hillary is sexism, she is pilloried for doing thins that male politicians do with barely a comment.
slag
@peach flavored shampoo: My guess is some McCain staffer sat down at a fancy restaurant in Utah and said, “The women! How much for the women?”, and they filed the $250 purchase (including meal) under advertising expenditures.
FlipYrWhig
@goblue72: Is this one of these “the Tea Party and Occupy both hate banks, so populism always wins!” things?
J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
I think a lot of Americans resent Clinton because they see her as the girl that always ruined the grading curve and always placed first in the science fair while running the student government, yearbook and prom committee. Basically, Hillary Clinton is who Lisa Simpson would grow up to be in real life.
I also think that the Clintons suffer from being our first internet first couple. All the crazy shit that was disseminated about them in the 90s via the internet had never been done before for and it just stuck to them in a way that no other first couple ever had to deal with before.
The Pale Scot
The stories linked on the bottom are good too.
This one I’m With The Banned
Contains this quote about Milo Yiannopoulos
I’m in awe
WereBear
This is very true: I do believe there was/is less furor over electing a black man than a white woman.
Showing what a problem sexism is.
Mnemosyne
@hovercraft:
This. There are voters out there who were willing to vote for a black man, but are unwilling to vote for a woman. It’s reality.
Obviously, not letting women run for office is not an option unless you’re an asshole, so we need to figure out ways around that.
Miss Bianca
@The Pale Scot: Yeah, I think “The Medium” may have to be a go-to site for me from now on…
Rommie
@goblue72: If Trump wins Wisconsin, he’ll already have won comfortably without the state. He’s not winning WIS outside of a nightmare scenario. If there’s a sniff of Trump being close to even in Michigan, the DNC will pour money like water into the state to fight for it – they won’t take it for granted twice in a row.
The true signal that the Clinton campaign is worried is if they spend time and/or money in Omaha and Bangor. It’s easier than it seems to get plausible 269-269 splits, plausible meaning that Trump is more popular than the polls say he is. Be prepared for him to vomit Brexit repeatedly over the next weeks and months.
Soylent Green
Not surprising about that great Hillary parody is how many of the idiot commenters thought she wrote it. These are the same irony-impaired nitwits who thought Colbert’s Colbert Report persona was an actual conservative.
FlipYrWhig
@J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford: I think it’s simpler. Republicans hate Hillary Clinton because they are Republicans and hence hateful. “The left” hates Hillary Clinton because they associate all things Clinton with “triangulation” over sticking to liberal principle, because they think that liberal principle definitely wins if you talk about it properly and insistently, so there’s never any downside to being proudly and vocally liberal, so if you aren’t doing that you suck, or are taking a dive, or are being bought off. (Think of the “Obama doesn’t know how to negotiate” and multiply it by “Sister Souljah.”) I don’t actually think sexism has very much to do with it.
Mnemosyne
@goblue72:
It’s a problem, but it’s not a problem that exists because Hillary is a weak candidate, or she doesn’t have enough accomplishments, or she’s too chummy with the banks, or she’s “corrupt,” or whatever those voters are claiming.
It’s a problem because of bias. Misogyny. They don’t want to vote for her because she has a vagina and women shouldn’t be leaders.
So listening to the Left or whatever concessions you want isn’t going to work, because making concessions will not cause a magical sex change. She will remain a woman no matter how many platform planks are given over to the Left.
We need to figure out how to overcome the Left’s misogyny, not give more concessions.
Lizzy L
Roger Cohen had a good (but very bleak) Op-Ed in the NYT yesterday: “Trump and the End of Truth.” Not linking, but you all know how to get there. It’s worth a read.
I’m sending more $$ to Hillary.
Goblue72
@FlipYrWhig: This is Middle England Brexit, American style. An urge by downwardly mobile white voters to give a big middle finger to the Establishment. Trump has tapped into that – he’s gone full bore anti-immigrant on one hand (something the GOP establishment has tip toed around in past elections), while eschewing traditional GOP issues like cutting Social Security and Medicare.
It’s a message aimed squarely at white non-college educated voters. Voters who are an outsized portion of the electorate – and who are a key voting bloc in the traditionally blue upper Midwest states. If it wasn’t for Detroit, Michigan would probably be in play for Trump as well.
Trump’s “I’ll tell China to go pound sand” schtick is exactly what these voters want to hear.
Goblue72
@Mnemosyne: You really have no fucking clue if you think this is all about misogyny. White male educated voters are favoring Clinton MORE than they favored Obama. White WOMEN without a college degree favor Clinton LESS than they did Obama.
But please, keep telling yourself myths unsupported by the data.
Mnemosyne
@Goblue72:
I’m sorry, women hating other women is a MYTH?!? What planet do you live on?
Mnemosyne
@Goblue72:
Oh, so all we have to do is go full-bore on hating immigrants and we’ll get all those voters back. I can’t imagine how that could possibly go wrong.
Miss Bianca
@FlipYrWhig:
There, I will disagree with you. No matter what other factors are in play – no matter whether “triangulation” or “proud 2 b liberal” is the way to go to court votes – sexism and racism are just baked into the apple pie of American politics, as they are into society. We discount or downplay the effects of sexism in the response to HRC at our peril.
Goblue72
@Rommie: I didn’t mention Michigan because Detroit is still large enough to provide a firewall for Democrats in Presidential elections. (It is worth noting that Mihigan has a GOP Governor and both houses of its state leg are GOP majority).
Wisconsin loved them Obama, but 2000 and 2004 the Dem margin of victory was razor thin – by tenths of points. Iowa same pattern – Obama solid victories, but 2000 and 2004 very narrow victories.
Combine a motivated white working class vote with a Dem candidate who has uncomfortably high unfavorables, and the chessboard starts changing.
Goblue72
@Mnemosyne: The myth is this is about misogyny – unless you define any time someone doesn’t like a woman candidate as misogyny. If your theory held, then men would favor Obama over Clinton regardless of education levels.
But keep nursing those grievances. It really helps with objective analysis of the underlying data.
FlipYrWhig
@Goblue72:
No, it’s not. People like to SAY it is because if it is it would validate a Thomas Frank-ish left critique of “neoliberal” this and that. They want to give a big middle finger to black people and foreigners, and other people who have never been part of the “Establishment.” The whole “Establishment” talking point is a bunch of bullshit that started out as a catch-all explanation for why Jeb Bush and Hillary Clinton were equally struggling. And it didn’t pan out that way. It’s pop sociopolitics, and it’s wrong. The story is that white people hate everyone else. It’s not economic and it’s not a social protest against hegemony by other means.
Goblue72
@Mnemosyne: Certainly not. But the Latino road show performance on Monday and the overdoing it with putting “DREAM Act” kids on display doesn’t help. We’re not going to see Latino turnout rates at levels much higher than we have seen in past election, beyond that predictable by underlying demographics. We have those votes already – Trump is doing our work for us.
But we do need to avoid bleeding votes that would otherwise be ours.
slag
@Miss Bianca: What you said.
We’ve finally gotten around to talking about racism as a structural, cultural, and individual problem. It wouldn’t hurt to start talking about sexism the same way. Though they are not the same thing, they are similarly architected in our society.
Mnemosyne
@Goblue72:
And the reason for those baked-in high unfavorables is not Hillary’s policies, or Hillary’s beliefs, or Hillary’s actions. It’s misogyny. They hate her because of her gender.
I have no clue why people who understood that a huge factor in the hatred of Obama was based on his race are absolutely blind to the fact that a huge factor in the Hillary hatred is her gender. It’s there. It’s real. When women tell you that sexism and misogyny exists in their everyday lives, you should fucking listen to us, because we are the fucking experts here.
Mnemosyne
@Goblue72:
Yeah, let’s shove our minority voters in the closet and pretend they don’t exist. That’ll totally get racist white working class people to vote for us!
You may want to look at the new voter registration statistics for Hispanic voters before you declare them unnecessary.
FlipYrWhig
@Goblue72:
Wow.
Bruce K
@schrodinger’s cat: The secret, I think, is to see how she acts when the spotlight isn’t on her. When I say I’ve been fortunate enough to have that privilege, in person, I am not being sarcastic in the slightest.
FlipYrWhig
@Goblue72: You know, I know Kay doesn’t like the sort of thing I’m about to say, but if the Republican Party were to become the working-class white people’s party, I say, good! Maybe the party will then do something to advance the good of working-class white people, rather than the opposite of that, which is what they do now. Let it be their problem. It would make for a better political debate than what we now have, certainly.
Goblue72
@FlipYrWhig: I’m not saying that race isn’t part of it – the anti-immigrant part ofTrump’s appeal is clearly racially motivated. The tenor would be a whole lot different if our immigration was coming from Canada and not Mexico. But let’s also be clear – there is more to the immigration issue than just race. In the UK, there had long been immigration from countries like India and Pakistan. But over past 10-20 years, immigration from Eastern Europe swelled (largest country of origin into UK after India is Poland). And as much ire was aimed at Eastern European migrants as against “Pakis”.
But just as its not entirely about giving the powers that be a fuck off, it’s also not entirely about race. You can’t reduce it all to some single binary issue. It’s as gross an over simplification as saying it’s all about anger at the Man.
Goblue72
@Mnemosyne: your anecdotes are not data and your vagina does not give you magic powers
slag
@FlipYrWhig: For reals.
We need a special category for BernieBrosplaining. It’s just like mansplaining but with an extra side of concern troll.
Goblue72
@Mnemosyne: It’s not about shoving in a closet. And here’s the thing – Obama split the white working class vote with Romney in those Midwestern states. So yeah, those are in part our voters. Who are now defecting. Per the article I linked to.
But put your head in the sand if it makes you feel better. I care about winning and I don’t care if that means being ruthless in how we divide up the electoral battleground.
I thought all you Clintonistas said we should all vote for Hillary because she’ll do whatever it takes to win?
FlipYrWhig
@Goblue72: Yeah, so, I’m not really enjoying this version of the Goblue character.
nastybrutishntall
@FlipYrWhig: It’s like there’s a pattern here.
boatboy_srq
@NotMax: Totally unacceptable. Especially since reserved, intelligent, articulate language has worked so well to silence the wingnuts.
/snark
D58826
MSNBC just interviewed two Fla. Bernie or bust 40 something sisters. The younger is voting for Hillary because she doesn’t want to repeat the mistake she made in 2000 when she voted for Nader. The older sister is going to vote for the Green party because she wants to punish to corrupt DNC with the voter fraud, stealing the election, failure to challenge Bush v Gore decision in 2000. The reporter asked her point blank if punishing the DNC is more important than defeating Trump and can she live with a Trump presidency. And she said that she had no problem with a president Trump. Punishing the DNC was more important.
What is the matter with these people?
Chyron HR
@Goblue72:
Maybe you should consider taking a break from posting until Burlington HQ issues revised talking points. I don’t think Bernie appreciates you winging it on his behalf.
Mnemosyne
@Goblue72:
And the only reason women get paid less is because they don’t work as hard. Got it.
slag
@D58826: Fealty to crazy is stronger than fealty to principle. That’s the framework in which I understand deadenders. Drama is love, love drama.
How they got that way I attribute to some combination of nature and nurture, of which privilege is certainly a big part.
Emma
@WereBear: well, crap. And this year keeps piling on. Good luck!
Mnemosyne
@FlipYrWhig:
The next time someone says there’s no misogyny on the left, we have this thread as Exhibit A, at least.
Also wondering on what planet discrimination and hatred counts as a “magic power.” That’s gotta be a crappy planet.
Mnemosyne
@slag:
The person I referenced way above (before I was told my vajayjay is not, in fact, magic ?) said that staying a Democrat is like staying in an abusive relationship. Which she apparently had done in the past. So, yeah, therapist needed there.
Bobby Thomson
@Miss Bianca: Wonkette
gwangung
@FlipYrWhig:
I always wanted to know…what’s the difference between “triangulation” and “compromise”?
different-church-lady
@slag:
Didn’t that David Brock fellow write an entire book about it?
different-church-lady
@gwangung: Well, the modern left thinks both things are evil, so I guess the only difference is the spelling.
different-church-lady
@Brachiator:
Now to be fair, how the hell could anyone possibly “clarify” that comment?
Betty Cracker
@Goblue72: See, you were making some sense here:
But then you had to demonstrate (again!) that you’re a clueless, sexist douchecanoe here:
Quelle surprise.
Brachiator
@Matt McIrvin:
It will be revealed that it was actually Hillary, not Michelle Obama, who has the “whitey tapes” problem.
Mnemosyne
@Betty Cracker:
And he hadn’t even gotten to his Latinos shouldn’t have been on stage last night bon mot!
D58826
@slag: Listening to more Bernie delegates and they won’t commit as to who they will vote for in the fall. They are ‘waiting to see what happens’. At this stahe, if the word ‘President Trump’ doesn’t clarify one’s thinking than these folks should not be left out without a keeper.
Mnemosyne
@Betty Cracker:
And while it’s true that the Hillary hatred can’t be boiled down to a single factor, the persistence of it and the fact that the “disapprove” number goes up or down depending on whether she’s running for office points to the conclusion that misogyny is baked in there somewhere. Call it 27 percent.
Bobby Thomson
Screwyou72 is misunderstood. He’s all for including Latinos. They just need to use the service entrance is all.
Matt McIrvin
I think it’s interesting that in most of the four-way polls I’ve seen, Gary Johnson is getting more votes than Jill Stein–often seemingly taking more votes from Clinton than from Trump, if you compare it with a two-way–yet Stein is the one that public Bernie-or-Busters usually say they’re voting for, and the one who is getting more attention for saying outrageous stuff in public.
Maybe we should look into why people are going for Johnson, instead of Clinton or, for that matter, Stein. Maybe his campaign slogan “Feel the Johnson” (oh, that rascal) is a big, big clue?
different-church-lady
@Matt McIrvin: While we’re at it, what ever happened to all those deeper Snowden-stolen bombshells Greenwald was going to unleash upon the world as soon as he got them edited?
FlipYrWhig
@gwangung: Compromise can be defensible if it is the result of driving a hard bargain. Triangulation is indefensible because it’s a compromise for compromise’s sake and never a hard bargain. QED.
Of course, in practice the left critique of these things is virtually always that the deal that was struck was obviously an incompetent cave-in. She/he/zie DIDN”T EVEN TRY!
rikyrah
@WereBear:
I disagree with this.
There was a comment over at Coates’ blog soon after President Obama’s election in 2008. The comment was posted by a Black woman who happened to be a Republican (she worked in Bush 41’s White House).
She said that Barack Obama needed almost a Billion Dollars to become President because of the 350 years of demonization of the Black Male that has taken place in this country. That’s how much he needed.
Hillary Clinton has been VILLIFIED in this country for a quarter century. Completely and utterly VILLIFIED.
I don’t even have to love her to know that.
I do believe that this country is ready for a Woman. A WHITE woman to be President.
And, if it were any other woman other than Hillary…it wouldn’t even be close right now. Would not be close. A competent, sane, woman, who has had public service in her background, who could get enough votes to become the nominee of the Democratic Party?
Wouldn’t even be close.
les
@Matt McIrvin:
Hillary did the Whitey Tape. You heard it here first.
Mnemosyne
@Matt McIrvin:
Well, we know that’s unpossible since it’s now been mansplained that nobody hates Hillary because she’s a woman. We’ll have to come up with a different reason.
Brachiator
@FlipYrWhig:
Sorry, this would doom the Democrats. It would be like saying you want the Democrats to be the party of union leadership, but not actual union members.
FlipYrWhig
@different-church-lady: Like with most Greenwald work, it’s probably waiting for UPDATE N and UPDATE N+1 as N approaches infinity.
Brachiator
@les:
See comment 151.
Betty Cracker
@Mnemosyne: Anchor babbies! Seriously, though, I get the sexist douchecanoe’s larger point: More traditional Republicans (i.e., the dogwhistling kind) have held back on rank xenophobia because they know it’s long-term electoral suicide, not because it won’t resonate with their base. Trump blew that strategy up.
But the right strategy, and ultimately the best approach politically, IMO, is what Democrats are doing now: embracing immigrants and pointing out that Trump is lying about them. Some DREAMer in Vegas isn’t a threat to America, but rich douchebags like Trump who have abrogated their civic responsibilities are.
randy khan
@Goblue72:
And if it wasn’t for New York City, so would New York, and if it wasn’t for Philadelphia, Pennsylvania would be solidly Republican. Or, put differently, there are a lot of states where the result might be different if you took out the biggest population center that votes for for the party that tends to win the state.
hovercraft
@D58826:
Well it’s not their fault that the democratic made the vote against them by not being exactly what they want. If the democrats want to try to be a big tent with differing views, then they can’t have her vote. It’s like the abuser who blames their victim, if only you hadn’t made me so mad I wouldn’t have hit you. You know assholes who turn around and get mad at you for not fixing their mess, she has the gall to bitch that the democrats didn’t fight hard enough to challenge FL 2000. If she had voted for the democrats in the first place there would have been no need to fight. Moron.
rikyrah
@D58826:
Purity ponies, you know.
Betty Cracker
@rikyrah: That’s a chicken-egg dilemma though: Why has Hillary Clinton been so vilified? In large part, because she is a woman with the temerity to seek power.
hovercraft
@Mnemosyne:
I feel like a kid playing double dutch, as I read the comments of the moron you’re dealing with, should I jump in, yes, no I’m not going to engage. He’s a moron, period, there’s no point in engaging.
Mnemosyne
@rikyrah:
Here’s what I think the difference might be: sexist yet liberal white people were willing to vote for Obama because he’s a man. Those same sexist but liberal whites don’t want to vote for Hillary, but don’t want to admit it’s because of their unexamined sexism, so they’re coming up with all kinds of other excuses.
Us liberal white women are hearing a lot more of the anti-Hillary stuff than we did of the anti-Obama stuff because racism is Not Polite in white liberal circles, but sexism is still A-OK.
Then you get down into the working class circles where it’s still okay to use the n-word and sexism is also rampant and suddenly you have a white working class voter problem that didn’t show up with Obama, because there is a (small) number of working class whites who are more comfortable voting for a man of any race than a woman, even if she’s white.
I think we’re going to make at least some of those votes up with Republican women who are racist but not sexist, but the sexism problem will still be there.
Shorter me: it’s not that there’s more sexism, it’s that white liberals are more comfortable being openly sexist than openly racist.
FlipYrWhig
@Brachiator: But the Working People’s Party would almost universally advocate for better things than the Republican Party does. I’m not saying that the Democratic Party would be the Bosses’ Party. I’m imagining something like the populist white people’s party of the New Deal era as one major party and the socially tolerant pluralism-and-equality party as the other. Basically the Democratic Party of old and the Democratic Party of the 21st century. I can envision that happening. And I can envision that the parts where they _agree_ would be… pretty good. I mean, I know that you can’t dictate these sorts of developments, but that sort of feels like where things are headed.
hovercraft
@Mnemosyne:
How the hell does the troll know, my vajayjay is magic and does tricks, maybe yours is too.
hovercraft
@gwangung:
It was done by the “Clintons”.
slag
@different-church-lady: Yes. But Brock’s deprogramming process as an insider will be completely different from that of an outsider. I’m more interested in how to deprogram outsiders.
Mnemosyne
@hovercraft:
Ha!
And there’s no point jumping in — he’s just going to keep showing his ass so he can pretend to himself that he hates Hillary for logical reasons that are totally not sexist in any way, like that she’s bossy and needs to speak more quietly.
les
@Brachiator:
Yeah, I saw it after hitting Post. I never suspected there’d be another here as lame as me. I? Nicely done. Bastard.
aimai
@gwangung: Triangulation wasn’t compromise, it was stealing the issue away from Republican control. So–if the Republicans were the “lawn (sic) order” and “lock ’em and shock ’em” party ordinarily the press would treat the Democrats as the opposite–acid, abortion, and amnesty. With triangulation you steal the entire issue by, for example, championing more beat cops.
Miss Bianca
@Goblue72: Well, thinking with your dick instead of your head doesn’t seem to be giving you any argumentative advantages here, cupcake.
Oh, wait…you mean that *is* your head? I’m sorry – I’ve just never seen a dick with ears before.
FlipYrWhig
@aimai: Right, good example — and the left critique is that when you triangulate you end up playing the whole game on Republican turf.
ThresherK (GPad)
I’ve been waiting for something like this since the “I’m not locked in here with you, you.’re locked in here with me” congressional witch hunt.
J R in WV
@slag:
McCain doesn’t run for office in Utah, evah. He has a residence in Arizona and is (so far) elected there. He is running even with a Democratic opponent this year… whom I plan to donate to in the immediate future.
Brachiator
@hovercraft:
@Mnemosyne:
So, Hillary may have a “Empress Matilda of England” problem.
The question is, how do you overcome it? The NY Times demographics article details Clinton’s problem with less educated white males, and indicates the degree to which this election may reflect significant gender issues to an extent not seen before. Clinton also has a problem, to a lesser degree and for different reasons, with white women. Either way, this could be a problem in critical swing states, where other Democratic voters may not entirely offset by other voting groups.
ETA: Matilda (1102 – September 10, 1167) was the designated heir of Henry I of England. But the nobles, who initially swore to support her claim, later rebelled. Among the reasons:
The English could not handle a queen regnant until Elizabeth I, centuries later.
FlipYrWhig
@Brachiator: Damn superdelegates.
SFAW
@dmsilev:
Wait. what’s the first thing to go?
Oh, and welcome to Balloon … uh …well, anyway, what’s the first thing to go?
J R in WV
@WereBear:
Online research is a great tool for travel, no matter the reason.
Very sorry to hear about your health issues, hoping hard that you get a good (as in accurate) diagnosis with a superior treatment plan good for the long haul.
Take care, try to keep your friends here informed so we can help worry!
Best of luck!
Mnemosyne
@Brachiator:
I have to think more about how to solve the problem (and presumably Hillary’s campaign has some really, really smart people doing the same thing), but if I may speak collectively for the women who have already commented, we can’t solve the problem if there are people on the left who refuse to believe the problem even exists.
J R in WV
@Goblue72:
Dude, do you even know any women? Who are willing to tell you the truth? My wife, my cousins, my female friends, all have been smacked in the face by sexist male power over and over. From male co workers to male newbies to bosses and other women, hate of woman is one of the most powerful forces on Earth.
Your repeated denial of sexism as a power in politics makes you look like someone utterly disconnected from women. You can say anecdote over and over, but when you hear the same anecdote from every woman you know, you can draw conclusions from their history.
Matt McIrvin
@les: I applaud both of you.
I always remember what originally convinced me that the whitey tape guy, Larry Johnson, was not worth listening to. For a while, he had a blog on TPM.
There was this incident in which a nuclear bomb with a working core had been accidentally loaded on an Air Force plane and flown somewhere (remember that?) Johnson insisted he had knowledgeable sources telling him that the event was no accident at all, but preparation for impending US bombing of Iran, possibly nuclear. I was kind of alarmed so I asked around about it, and anyone who knew anything bombers, bombs and the Air Force immediately insisted that that was completely stupid. Many people said so in Johnson’s comments, too, and posted detailed rebuttals elsewhere.
Now, if the guy had backed down I’d have just figured he was a person as ignorant as me who got taken, but no, he was adamant. And the whitey tape business later on followed the same pattern.
Brachiator
@Mnemosyne:
Obama (and his chief advisors and supporters) did not spend much time trying to convince voters that racism did not exist. Many men live with or deny sexism all day long, and still often manage to do the right thing more often than not. Same with liberal racists.
Goblue and some others are trying to have it both ways: denying sexism and also implying that a late substitution Sanders would sweep to victory largely because he is a man.
Funny thing, though. Clinton got a lot of the white male democratic vote when she ran in the primaries against Obama back in 2008. These are some fickle morons. But I think they can still be won over.
Brachiator
@Mnemosyne: Also, if this thread is still alive, let me throw in one other thing.
I remember in 2008, some wise liberal Democrat dismissing Obama, and asserting that there was a psychic pecking order for future Democratic presidents who were not white Christian men. The ordained order that voters would ABSOLUTELY live by in future elections was as follows: a white woman (presumably Hillary in 2008), then a Jewish man, and then maybe after 50 years or so, a black man.
But I think that people were surprised and then excited to consider Obama, and then vote for him. And this includes people who probably at one time thought that they would never vote for a black person.
I think that Hillary may find the same kind of acceptance, even among some reluctant voters. I note that her circumstances are different in many ways, and she also has to deal with the hatred, joint and separate, that has been directed against her and her husband.
ruckus
@WereBear:
Good luck, hope it all works out.
Hearing “I don’t know” from your medical professionals does tend frustrate one.