As Adam noted yesterday, the DNC hack isn’t just standard intel gathering that virtually all governments do. The decision to use WikiLeaks as an outlet to publicly release the information to interfere with an election “meets the definition of an act of cyberwar,” according to Dave Aitel, whose Ars Technica editorial was quoted in Adam’s post.
Article III. of the Constitution of the United States, Section 110:
“Treason against the United States shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open Court. The Congress shall have power to declare the punishment of treason.”
Republican nominee Donald J. Trump, July 27, 2016:
“Russia, if you’re listening, I hope you’re able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing,” Mr. Trump said, staring directly into the cameras during a news conference. “I think you will probably be rewarded mightily by our press.”
So to recap, GOP presidential nominee Donald Trump openly “adhered” to a hostile foreign government and encouraged it to commit an act of war on the United States.
LOCK HIM UP! LOCK HIM UP! LOCK HIM UP!
UPDATE: I was kinda kidding about the treason thing and definitely dishing out sauce for the tangerine-hued hell-gander with the “Lock Him Up” bit above. (I’m not a lawyer, but I am a firm believer in due process.) However, a bipartisan sampling of former officials are seriously calling Combover Caligula out, including William Inboden, who served in GWB’s NSC; he said Trump’s comments were “tantamount to treason” [Politico link]. Hmm.
Trentrunner
Reposted from the earlier dying thread:
One problem we have in grappling with Trump is that he is a Gish Galloper: He throws out so many lies at once that it’s hard to know where to start. And that’s the point.
I watched Trump’s press conference, and from memory, here are a sampling of the outrageous things he said beyond Russia & emails:
– Putin has called Obama a nigger
– The Geneva Convention is outdated
– I will bring back torture; it works
– Obama is the most ignorant president we have ever had
– On November 1, some unspecified cost report will be released showing what a huge failure Obamacare has been, with highest premium increases of all time
– He said Tim Kaine was from New Jersey, at least a few times, before being corrected by the press
– He referred to John Hinckley as “David” Hinckley
– He said the prosecutor in the Freddie Gray case was wrong to even bring charges and should “prosecute herself”
– He said Bill Clinton left out the best part of Hillary’s history last night, alluding to the Lewinsky affair
That’s off the top of my head. Total Gish Gallop, and we have to find a way to deal with it.
JDM
Nixon conspired with a foreign enemy to tilt the election his way in ’68. Reagan did it in ’80. It’s tradition.
p.a.
Ah! but will he be found competent for prosecution?
Tilda Swinton's Bald Cap
@JDM: Exactly, this time it’s public.
Berial
Both parties calling for the leader of the other to be locked up. What a wonderfully united country we have. /sigh.
Also can you IMAGINE what all that NSA mass surveillance in the hands of Trump? Such good times. (Honestly, how has it gotten this bad? Have the ‘conservatives’ just lost their damn minds?)
p.a.
@JDM:
fixt
catclub
When did Russia get this (non-existent) designation?
I think unless we are at war with a country, treason cannot get applied. Espionage, maybe.
Miss Bianca
@Trentrunner: I realize now what my frustration is in dealing with Bernie-Bro-ists and Trump apologists, both online and IRL: they have been exposed to the “Gish Gallop” phenomenon and they are breathlessly regurgitating the BS as fast as they can. It’s like trying to address a broken sewer pipe with one of those little fish nets you get from the pet store.
maryQ
I’m pretty freaked out that Russian hackers have my personal information, and are helping Trump win.
I’m even more freaked out that this is not a bigger deal. What the fukkityphuk are elected Republicans doing supporting this treasonous bastard!
The Dangerman
Buckle up; Trump hasn’t been nominee for a week and he’s already dancing with being perp-walked (oh, would THAT be great). It’s gonna be a wild ride to November.
hovercraft
Don’t be silly, Noot and Rudy who are national security experts along with an RNC spokesperson tell me he was just kidding. Everyone needs to get a sense of humor. Chillax.
mkro
So, lock up Trump because he’s a trader, but hail Snowden as the great freer and oracle of gov’t secrets?
This hack should be seen as on the same scale of crime as Watergate. But libs here and @ other blogs like DK, think Snowden and Assange are heroes. Funny how one’s political ideology influences your positions.
SteveinSC
Each and every major Republican supporter of Donald Trump must be asked to go on record whether they agree or disagree with Donald Trump on the emails and whether it is tantamount to treason. Otherwise they are aiding and abetting treason against the United States.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
Interesting that Intercept/Wikileaks/Assange/Snowden is interested only in attacks on Hillary/Democrats. She must represent the existential threat of their nightmares. Can’t wait to vote for her.
Felonius Monk
@p.a.:
Probably the only thing he is competent for.
Pangloss
I know there must have been cases where the Democrats switched philosophy 180 degrees on some issues in a few election cycles, but the GOP’s total reversal of multiple, so-called “core principles” since 2012 is just stunning. It underscores that they have, as a party, abandoned all interest or concern or pretense of policy. They are now essentially a street gang, with no other guiding philosophy other than supporting their members to gain power and punishing goups they consider non-members.
Iowa Old Lady
I got this from Kos. I don’t know where they got it:
Felonius Monk
@efgoldman:
Maybe you should stop using that keyboard with the invisible type. :-)
Scarcelight
TBF, that one wasn’t so much a lie, as just Trump being an asshole, as usual.
Trollhattan
@Berial:
When he had the hotel guest room phones ported to his suite so he could listen in, he was just practicing for his future job!
Josie
@mkro: Um, I don’t know about other commenters, but I certainly don’t think Snowden and/or Assange are heroes. One is a traitor and the other stands accused of sexual assault. Not very heroic.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
geg6
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
Assange has already admitted that he’s trying to help Trump out by damaging Hillary who he considers his enemy. I’m just gobsmacked by this whole thing and I wouldn’t have thought that possible after a year of Drumpf.
Trollhattan
@Iowa Old Lady:
Gabby Giffords is speaking tonight. Can’t wait!
Villago Delenda Est
@hovercraft: So, two jokes are telling us that Teh Donald is just joking.
Chyron HR
@mkro:
[Citation Needed]
goblue72
Trump’s press conference today has me worried for first time that he could win. We are in the middle of the DNC convention – and having nominated the first woman as Presidential nominee of a major party – and the headline oxygen in the room is being consumed by what? Hillary Clinton’s emails. And the Democratic response – “Those emails were stolen by the Ruskies.” As opposed to “We’re done talking about emails. We’re here to talk about America.”
Now the entire conversation on both sides is about her fucking emails – again. In other words, on TRUMP’s ground, not ours.
Trump is a troll – you don’t stop a troll by engaging the troll on the troll’s terms.
Ohio, Iowa, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania are all in play for Trump.
dm
Trump is having a town hall meeting in Scranton, PA right now. Live streaming on WNEP.com. (having problems with link)
hovercraft
@Berial:
Ahem there is a very slight difference, Hillary legally deleted her personal e-mails off of a private server, while the consensus is that using that private server was ill advised it was not a crime. You see violating rules and regulations can result in consequences with your boss, you are not automatically breaking the law. The FBI then investigated to see if any laws had been broken and they decided none had. Herr Trump on the other hand has on national tv with the world watching, called on a foreign country to hack into his political opponents e-mails and reveal what they find. So for us here on this this called a blog are asking/ saying is that his actions, which are plain for all to see, not speculation or fantasy, is whether this constitutes treason, or as I think sedition? One of these things is not like the other, saying they are does not make it so.
Now this has been written very slowly and simply so that even nincompoops like you can see the distinction, and don’t spend the next 200 comments showing your ignorance.
Applejinx
I still think Trump is at risk of being whacked by the Russian mob, for the purposes of sowing maximum confusion and chaos in the USA.
He’s only useful to Putin if he has a chance of being elected, and it seems like he’s fucking that up. If they decide he’s more useful as a martyr, I think he’s pretty much done. It’s only a matter of making some kind of pretense that it’s Hillary Clinton who did it.
Trollhattan
Speaking of American heroes, think I found a new one on the US Women’s Olympic rowing team.
CONGRATULATIONS!
@mkro: You’re obviously new here. About half this blog’s commentors were calling for Snowden’s arrest, trial, and execution if found guilty. FWIW I’m one of them.
As far as Assange goes, he needs to man up and face the music. I’m sure the Ecuadorians are fucking sick of him taking up the whole couch for years now. All they want to do is watch some TV, but he’s always there eating ramen, smoking dope, and not bathing, like a real couch hippie is supposed to.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@geg6:
What’s that connection?
tinare
@Josie: Me either!
piratedan
@mkro: there have been plenty of folks on this here blog that do not anoint Mr. Snowden as a hero. Just because our esteemed bloghost chooses to see him in a favorable light, this blog is hardly the echo chamber that you are alluding to.
dmsilev
Probably not strictly speaking treason (we’d have to actually be at war with Russia, I think), but from a political standpoint close enough.
It also, by the way, will largely discredit any subsequent releases as being tainted by edits and cherry picking at the hands of Russian Intelligence.
Calouste
@goblue72: I’ll pull out the fainting couch and fetch you your clutching pearls.
goblue72
@Iowa Old Lady: That was always the plan – Wed night was scheduled as National Security night.
Trollhattan
@goblue72:
Interesting twist: you’ve gone from “Hillary will lose!” to “Trump could win!”
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@goblue72:
Um, today’s press conference showed that he’s an unstable dangerous loon. That’s only going to get worse. Today’s the first day he really scared a lot of people who might have held their nose otherwise if he’d been able to keep his anus of a mouth shut.
tinare
@Trollhattan: “I will row through shit for you, America”
That is great!
schrodinger's cat
@goblue72: So, are you typing this comment from Moscow or Smolensk?
Chris
@Miss Bianca:
Now that I’ve hung out a little bit around the protests outside the Pennsylvania Convention Center here in Philly, I actually feel better about the Bernie-dead-ender thing.
Because let’s be honest: if your protest sign reads “Eat Your Pheasant, Drink Your Wine, We’re Coming For You, Bourgeois Swine,” you were never going to vote for a Democrat to begin with.
Poopyman
@goblue72: Trump is not a troll, he’s the confirmed nominee of one of the two major parties, standing for election for the job of President of the United States. The guy who strides in to the room to “Hail to the Chief”. The guy the Joint Chiefs of Staff all have to defer to. On his word many deeds would be done in your name.
Stakes are astronomically high, so let’s not minimize him by calling him a troll, eh?
Iowa Old Lady
@hovercraft: What’s more, those emails were written while she was Secretary of State. He wants the Russians to hack an SoS’s email.
Villago Delenda Est
@goblue72: The sky is falling. This from a diehard BernieBro.
I invite you, most cordially, to find a fire to die in.
Adam L Silverman
@efgoldman: Just got in and dug it out. It had gone straight to trash. Don’t know why.
Omnes Omnibus
@Chris:
Sure, but at least that slogan has the virtue of being amusing.
Adam L Silverman
Why you gotta drag me into this meshugas. I’m minding my own business and poof I’m suddenly in the first sentence of the post!
Poopyman
@Applejinx: A clear act of war. Putin might be evil, probably not crazy, and definitely not stupid.
jl
@Chris:
I think a person doing a ‘Gish Gallop’ is supposed to sound like they understand what they are saying.
Trump was very definitely not doing that today. He sounded like a guy vaguely aware he will called on his BS before he gets his brass ring.
Iowa Old Lady
@goblue72: Yes, I know. I love that Trump has given the Ds some extra material and they don’t intend to waste it.
James E Powell
@goblue72:
So your response to trolling is concern trolling? Look, nobody is minimizing the Trump threat, least of all the Clinton/Kaine campaign.
Chris
@mkro:
Speaking as someone who’s been on the anti-Wikileaks bandwagon for a long time, as I recall from the arguments on this blog three years ago, both sides were very well represented. This place isn’t the Assange cheerleading convention you seem to think it is.
SiubhanDuinne
@goblue72:
Sounds as though that would be pretty much okay with you.
hovercraft
@Iowa Old Lady:
Greg Sargent this morning had a post saying that Bill and Obama were a one two punch, Bill did soften ,personal last night and Obama is going to do the shiv work tonight, for two reasons one he’s the POTUS and two he enjoys ripping Trump and is very good at it. Someone needs to lock up the phone and all the computers tonight in Trump tower, this could get very ugly.
The entire lineup is National Security tonight vp and pres., Kaine who is on the armed services committee, a general and Panetta. Heavy hitter night, they’ve been whining about ISIS they’ll hear plenty of it tonight.
mkro
@Chyron HR: Citation provided, per your request:
Edward Snowden, American Hero by John Cole:
https://balloon-juice.com/2016/05/16/edward-snowden-american-hero/
jl
@Poopyman:
” Stakes are astronomically high, so let’s not minimize him by calling him a troll, eh? ”
To be effective, trolls are supposed to sound like they know what they are saying too. Trump flunks that test with flying colors.
Call Trump what he is: a fraud. a fake, a flake, a fool.
hovercraft
@Villago Delenda Est:
Well what else can they say? This dude’s fucking crazy, doesn’t sound too great.
patroclus
I don’t think Trump committed treason with his comments but he was very very careless and it was treason-like.
liberal
@Trentrunner: you missed “I will defend article 12 of the Constitution.”
Chris
@Applejinx:
I half-jokingly noted on another blog recently that the GOP establishment’s best bet of coming out of this would be to have Trump assassinated, then use the resulting outcry to rally people around his VP. (That was before the VP pick. I don’t know exactly where this guy ranks when compared to the GOP establishment… but I can’t imagine that he’d be more hard to control than Trump).
Poopyman
@Omnes Omnibus:
With good meter!
Josie
@Adam L Silverman: Well, that’s what you get for actually knowing what you are talking about.
liberal
@catclub: Yep. IIRC this is why the Rosenbergs were charged with conspiracy to commit espionage, not treason.
celticdragonchick
@srv: Treason apologist troll thinks he is cute.
Go peddle your Putin jackboot shit somewhere else, fuckwad. Go fellate your dictator BFF while you are at it.
Villago Delenda Est
@Adam L Silverman: You fucked up and came across as reasonable and knowledgeable. Let this be a lesson to you.
dmsilev
@hovercraft: No, for God’s sake, leave the Trump computers in place and unlocked. Why deprive ourselves of what could be the best Twitter meltdown ever?
Mnemosyne
@Berial:
There’s an old 1980s movie called Head Office that I keep referencing because the Eddie Albert character is the closest thing I’ve seen to Trump, though less noisy. At about 2:40 into this scene of a board meeting, his character is personally deciding whether or not to disconnect individual customers’ phones while they show him surveillance photos of the customers.
Eerily prescient. “DIS-co-nect!”
(Comedy geek note: the kissass board member who says, “Personally, I think it’s tremendous waste of enormous kill power” is the late, great Michael O’Donoghue, who was one of the founding writers of SNL and the co-writer of the movie.)
O. Felix Culpa
@Omnes Omnibus:
And tasty.
Howard Beale IV
Hair Furor’s presser wasn’t treasonous. Seditious? Probably….
geg6
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
The connection? Between Assange and the Russians? Assange and Hillary? Not sure what you’re asking.
liberal
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: justified or not, they have a grudge against her: (link)
Jeffro
@hovercraft: Obama has already been talking about how it’s important that any potential president “knows something”, as in “has half a brain”. Ow. Ch.
Not enough popcorn in all the world, tonight…
Chris
@Omnes Omnibus:
I mostly just find it weird. How many people who aren’t politics junkies even know what “bourgeois” means, including people who are bourgeois themselves (as opposed to “white collar” or “blue blood” or whatever)? Is pheasant a dish that’s especially associated with the upper classes here in the U.S. (as opposed to European old school nobility)?
Archon
Senate Republicans wrote a letter to the Supreme leader of Iran in essence telling him that any agreement made with the President regarding their nuclear weapons program would be disregarded, as if they were a government in exile telling other nations that deals made with a rogue President, temporarily in power until overthrown would not be honored. That should have been one of the biggest legislative scandals in U.S history (second only to Republicans threatening to default on our debts as an act of political extortion) and it turned out to be a 2 day cable media story at best.
We are far beyond Republicans and treason. They are in full on rule or ruin mode.
Trollhattan
@Mnemosyne: “Mister Mike’s Mondo Video” was one of the classic subversive standbys of the early VCR era. Holy moly the guy was…unique. Also loved his SNL celebrity impressions.
Mnemosyne
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
If I may repeat my bad joke about a serious subject, Assange seems to have a history of inserting himself into places where he’s unwanted, doesn’t he?
(The sexual assault allegations against Assange are that he had sex with a woman while she was still asleep after they had sex the first time, which is a mere social no-no in most places but an actual crime in Sweden.)
goblue72
@Calouste: I ain’t fainting. Just that Trump upsets the electoral apple cart in uncomfortable ways this election in connection with upper Midwest states that would typically vote Blue, but for whom Trump has the potential to change the dynamics. The state level dynamics of the upper Midwest have gotten real bad for Democrats – with the GOP knocking our blocks off in terms of Governorships and control of state legislatures, with downscale whites voting more and more GOP.
Worst thing we can do is underestimate the opposition.
patroclus
@Howard Beale IV: It’d be a close call on sedition. One of John Adams’ Alien and Sedition Acts remains good law, but hasn’t really been relied upon much (since the aftermath of the XYZ affair) for prosecutions. The 1918 Espionage Act contains much more applicable language and would probably be the best statute to prosecute Trump on, if that’s what Comey found after an investigation. But I doubt it – like I said, Comey should merely lecture Trump on being very very careless with his language.
eric
@srv: Nate is more sophisticated than that. now is not november. is there a non-zero chance? yes. Are the consequences dire if trump wins? yes. I think that people are having an emotional reaction to the gravity of trump’s election and ignoring that he is not actually in the lead even after his convention. He is not going to get more popular. every day is a day that he can implode. it is akin to the psychological effects of pascal’s wager.
? Martin
@Berial:
I’ve seen almost nobody call for Trump to be locked up. Lots of questions about Republican hypocrisy being raised, and lots of questions about where our fourth estate is, and lots of questions whether this should be disqualifying an lead to Trump losing the election – but is anyone suggesting Trump be locked up? Betty isn’t seriously doing that – she’s just mocking the GOP logic here.
liberal
@dmsilev: agreed about the issue of tainting. It’s obviously an own goal by Trump, even if we put aside the fact it makes him appear even loonier.
gogol's wife
@Chris:
AAAAH! That’s a quotation from Mayakovsky!
goblue72
@schrodinger’s cat: Fuck you. I spend more time on progressive Democratic policy issues and politics in one week than you do over your entire lifetime. As it is part of my actual professional occupation.
gogol's wife
@Chris:
But it’s supposed to be “Eat pineapple, chew pheasants, your last day is coming, bourgeois” — but that doesn’t rhyme.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@liberal:
Ah, that’s right – I forgot about the timing of the State Dept. leaks. Thanks for the info, now go DIAF.
Trollhattan
@Mnemosyne:
Hard to remember he was Oliver on “Green Acres.” And Don King–holy crap.
gogol's wife
@Omnes Omnibus:
Because it’s Mayakovsky!
who ended up with a bullet in his brain, *maybe* self-inflicted
goblue72
@Poopyman: Fair enough. I was remarking more on his style of political communication and political attack/engagement. He loves to goad the other side and get the fight to be fought on his terms.
Omnes Omnibus
@mkro: You are new here, aren’t you?
CONGRATULATIONS!
Treason seems to be a charge that can only be applied to Democrats. Republicans, it seems, can never be guilty of such a crime.
japa21
Okay, I just watched Pence and Trump in PA. I may never be the same again.
slag
@Archon:
For many reasons I’ve been thinking a lot about how to defend against people who deploy scorched earth tactics and failing to come up with any meaningfully viable approaches. When your only goal is to make sure the guy next to you has it as bad or worse, you pretty much hold all of the cards. This same problem holds true for the Bernie Babies. I wish I knew a way out.
D58826
@catclub: sedition? maybe?
schrodinger's cat
@goblue72: I seem to have hurt your delicate fee-fees.
liberal
@goblue72: I agree, insofar as one big problem is that Hillary’s campaign seems to be a combination of “I’m not Trump” plus cliched identity politics stuff. So she doesn’t have a substantial positive agenda to begin with.
schrodinger's cat
@Omnes Omnibus: New new or just a with new nym?
Jay C
@Adam L Silverman:
Sorry, man: it’s the price you have to pay (sometimes) for being a”pre-eminent blogger”…
bystander
Apparently there are bills pending requesting the POTUS to formulate a definition of cyberwar.
I don’t know Security Week and I’m sorry if definitional theory was covered in the thread yesterday.
Regardless, at this point only an act of cowardice like the pol’s at the climax of Stephen King’s The Dead Zone will do him in. So, there’s hope.
liberal
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: go fuck yourself, douchebag.
Chris
@Archon:
I makes sense to them in that twisted kind of mentality, when you remember that they really don’t consider the rest of us American in the first place. America is their country – theirs, and no one else’s. When it falls into the hands of a group of outsiders and interlopers and traitors – that’d be us – they’re in their rights to do whatever they want to get it back. Dealing with the Russians is distasteful but no different in the end from, say, the French resistance and its quasi-government seeking refuge in London and asking the British, Canadians and American armies to march on their country. Ally with one group of foreigners to drive out the ones who’re already occupying us.
This is what you get from their brand of crazy tribalism.
rikyrah
Not only call it treason, but don’t phucking back down from calling it treason.
Chris
@gogol’s wife:
Who?
gogol's wife
@Chris:
Mayakovsky, 1917.
Esh’ ananasy, riabchikov zhui,
Den’ tvoi poslednii prikhodit, burzhui.
liberal
@bystander: well, I’d say Stuxnet certainly fits any reasonable definition.
goblue72
@SiubhanDuinne: And fuck you as well. Unlike the overwhelming number of you folks, I am actually professionally engaged in progressive Democratic public policy and politics, mostly at the state level. I supported the most progressive Democratic candidate in the primaries – Sanders. Primary season is over, even though a number of you still cling to your butthurt. Its GE now, and I support the Democratic candidate in the GE – Clinton.
gogol's wife
@Chris:
Vladimir Mayakovsky (1893-1930), a great Russian poet who favored the Revolution and was eaten by it.
Chris
@slag:
Yeah. I’m not crazy about the Golda Meir quote “we will have peace when they love their children more than they hate us,” but it certainly seems to apply to conservative voters from Nixon onwards. The desire to fuck over your neighbor trumps all. (Pun intended).
Omnes Omnibus
@Chris:
History majors, Poli Sci majors, people who studied French at some point, etc.
Since upper classes here tended to ape the European upper classes, I would assume so.
liberal
@Chris: it’s really fascism, not mere tribalism, with the whole “we’re the true Volk and we’re aggrieved” stick.
burnspbesq
@mkro:
A lot of folks here would say that Snowden performed a valuable public service, which should be taken into account when he is sentenced.
Some of the same folks wouldn’t mind all that much if Chelsea Manning’s sentence gets commuted someday.
Assange, not so much. He needs to go to Sweden and face the music.
Applejinx
@Chris: Yeah, the thing is in order for Putin to disable the US through a whack of Trump, it would have to be in a way that did NOT lead to the USA coming together in response. What we’re seeing on the right is a bunch of nutjobs actively deciding they would prefer to have Russia running things rather than Hillary Clinton, and increasingly persuading themselves of this.
If it was obviously ‘Trump blew it, Putin has him whacked as an open show of contempt for us’, the Republicans would come up with somebody else, probably Ryan who would appear justified in his ‘putin stay out of this!’ rhetoric.
If it was made to look like the Republicans did it, you could see the Trump forces go rogue in the belief that the corrupt American government killed their purity pony.
If it was made to look like the Democrats did it, same deal but an easier sell to the masses of conspiracy theory idiots.
Honestly, on reflection I think it serves Putin better to just keep the guy in there as the Republican nominee for as long as possible. If he gets dumped from the ticket, Clinton benefits, and Russia doesn’t want to see Clinton win. If he stays the nominee, that’s probably their best shot even if he’s demented and not coherently helping Russia. It’s still maximum chaos.
japa21
@goblue72:
I actually have to agree with you with that. But that should always be the case. As far as the upper Midwest goes, I am in the upper Midwest. Most of the Trump supporters I have talked to also voted for Romney, McCain and Bush twice. He may gain a little, but he will also lose a lot of the white collar support the others had. Not being complacent here, but I don’t think he can pull it off.
And this is specially true if the media keeps playing it up as close. That will drive even more people to the polls than normal just to block him. May sound weird, but a major factor may turn out to be weather.
Bill
What Trump didn’t isn’t treason under Article III. Convictions for treason are exceptionally rare and almost all include acts of violence/rebellion against the government or spying for/defecting to an enemy during times of war. Whether Trump’s behavior may constitute a lesser crime I don’t know. In any event, it should be a disqualifying act for anyone seeking to be president.
As much as I dislike Trump, I’d really like it if we didn’t sink to the level of chanting “lock him up.”
Betty Cracker
@mkro: Here’s another citation for your consideration.
Bobby Thomson
@goblue72: you shouldn’t brag about being an oppo researcher for the RNC.
Feathers
@Trollhattan: This is one of the problems of the IOC being so hopelessly corrupt. I doubt you will see another US Olympics any time soon. I was excited about the prospect of a Boston Olympics because the rules allowing it to become a New England Olympics would have allowed the build out of transportation infrastructure and affordable housing. But, no. The IOCs rules required all sorts of garbage and the bid was quickly shouted down.
This is another example of the corruption overwhelm that has overtaken so many institutions. They need to just make Athens the permanent site of the Summer Olympics and have rotating North America, Europe, and Asia sites for the Winter Olympics.
Tazj
@hovercraft: Yes, they’ve been whining about not hearing enough about ISIS, like those murderous narcissistic assholes needed more free publicity.
Speaking of narcissistic assholes, tRump has been lying all day and has been exposed as one by at least one journalist, Katy Tur. When I saw her being interviewed by Thomas Roberts on MSNBC. I don’t think how he has conducted himself today will help in the election.
celticdragonchick
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
Really is looking that way.
The Trump trolls were out in force over at The Atlantic earlier with hurrhurrhurrhurr libtard don’t get the joke! along with If I read the law the way I want this isn’t really criminal and Trump is just playing you all to his master plan LOL
RK
Yep, he can win.
FlipYrWhig
@goblue72: People pay you for what you think? Good God, Lemon. Hope they get a receipt.
Captain C
@Applejinx:
In the unlikely event the Russian mob actually puts a hit out on Trump, most likely it will be for nonpayment of debts to a connected Russian oligarch.
jl
@Adam L Silverman:
” Why you gotta drag me into this meshugas. I’m minding my own business and poof I’m suddenly in the first sentence of the post! ”
You should welcome your new national security overlord, the new Trump administration. Think of all the interesting questions you’ll get asked:
Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania: which should get an installment plan and which should pay cash for US protection.
After we close all foreign military bases to save cash, should we give the troopps TrumpAir vouchers or lend-lease them the planes for power projection?
Should the new Trump ‘Russian Oligarch Apprentice’ show be subtitled or dubbed in English?
If they decide to fire him, would that be a good plot twist, or should they just cancel the show?
Betty Cracker
@? Martin: Thank you for getting that. I forgot that Poe’s Law is always operable.
patroclus
@liberal: Huh? A $15 minimum wage? Debt-free college? Expanding Social Security and Medicaid? A California-like energy conservation act? An employment non-discrimination act? The Dream Act? A comprehensive immigration act? Protecting women’s liberty? Over-turning Citizen’s United? A new campaign finance act? Good USSC Justices, like Merrick Garland? An expanded Dodd-Frank and a 21st century Glass-Steagall Act? I could go on and on… Have you even been listening to her? Are you not aware of the Unity Platform?
japa21
@liberal:
You really blew your cover with that one. The only party playing identity politics is the GOP. And she has one of the most positive liberal/progressive agendas I have ever seen.
ETA, or what patroclus said.
celticdragonchick
@Bill: Pretty sure suborning espionage against the government by a foreign power is seriously illegal.
Chyron HR
@goblue72:
Is complaining that there’s too many colored people on stage at the convention meant to be “policy” or “politics”?
celticdragonchick
@liberal:
Going to tell us all how you will #bernitdown next, right?
Mnemosyne
@liberal:
Nice to know that you consider the heartrending speeches by the mothers of sons lost to gun violence to be “cliched identity politics.” Because who gives a shit about the lifelong pain of mere black women when there are white dudes we should be talking about, amirite?
Omnes Omnibus
@schrodinger’s cat: Anyone who thinks that the denizens of this blog are uniformly pre-Snowden based a single blog post from a couple of months ago is probably not a longtime reader/commenter.
goblue72
@eric: Certainly things in flux now. The polling over the convention period is typically a mess and noisy. The polling a month after the convention though, has a solid history of being predictive. So yes, there’s a lot of narrative shaping and framing happening right now – narratives which will start getting a lot more locked in over next 4 weeks or so as we lead in to Labor Day – after which the non-politically engaged voters will start paying closer attention. So yes, its obviously not panic button time. But its also not “don’t worry, they got this” either.
Trump still has the lower chance of winning. But given how much a disaster he would be to our liberal democratic traditions as a nation, any chance that is more than de minimis is a problem. We’d survive a President Romney – it wouldn’t be great for anyone not rich, but we’d survive. Trump though? Fuck that.
Tilda Swinton's Bald Cap
@patroclus: Like I said, they know what they know, even when they don’t know shit.
Applejinx
@liberal: That’s bullshit. Even I know that. Hillary’s got a platform and it draws greatly on her experience in the primary, and I have every reason to believe she means it because plenty of it is not in any way a flipflop. The parts that do seem a change for her, are in response to obvious political demographic changes well documented by her primary challenger, so there’s no reason for her to renege and every reason to bring that stuff on board (especially when it’s mostly blue-sky wish-making and not implementation).
From this Bernfeeler who worked in his NH primary: bullshit, Hillary’s campaign is not ‘I’m not Trump’. That is just one of her best qualities. Anybody who can boast ‘I’m not Trump’ should be proud of it :)
Mnemosyne
@srv:
You really are desperate to try and deflect a story that hurts Trump, aren’t you? One can’t help but wonder why.
Miss Bianca
@mkro: Um…how many liberals here actually think Assange and Snowden are heroes? Not *this* liberal.
FlipYrWhig
@Chris: @Chris: Everyone I know who uses the word “bourgeois” thinks it means “fancy.” The actual technical meaning died a long time ago.
Betty Cracker
@liberal: Then you haven’t been paying attention during the campaign, haven’t watched the convention, haven’t read the policies she’s proposed, etc. It’s one thing to prefer Bernie’s agenda. It’s another to ignore / be ignorant of / lie about the other candidate’s and spout nonsense.
schrodinger's cat
@Omnes Omnibus: Trolls and their sockpuppets don’t always make sense. Its hard to keep with all the identities. You tend to trip up.
goblue72
@Omnes Omnibus: The blog as a whole is all over the map on Assange/Snowden. But c’mon, that was a FP post only a few months ago by the OWNER of this blog.
gogol's wife
@FlipYrWhig:
I keep explaining, it’s a quotation from the poet Stalin called “the best and most talented poet of our Soviet epoch,” Vladimir Mayakovsky (he was already dead when Stalin said that).
gogol's wife
@FlipYrWhig:
I find it interesting that the Bernie fans are using Russian Revolution slogans. Kind of sick-making.
Villago Delenda Est
@patroclus: No, he’s deliberately tuned it out because it’s NOT BERNIE!
FlipYrWhig
@Chyron HR: As I recall GoBlue thought there were too many brown people on stage on Day One and too many magical vaginas on stage Day Two. You know, liberal politics.
Mnemosyne
@goblue72:
Do we get to hear your opinion about the lack of magical qualities of Hillary’s vajayjay? I mean, since you seem to have a strong opinion about my vagina and its lack of magical qualities, it only makes sense for you to opine about Hillary’s anatomy as well.
Captain C
@Omnes Omnibus: I wonder how many people holding signs like that have trust funds.
gogol's wife
@Captain C:
All of them, Katie.
I’ll leave it to Mnem to quote Burr, I already did it once today.
jl
@Betty Cracker: I think it is very odd for some of these people to be whining about how the Democrats are or or are not presenting themselves, or what HRC’s campaign is or isn’t, before the Democratic Convention is even half over.
@liberal: I think the Democrats are doing OK, thank you very much. They had some internal business to settle the first day, and they got that very nicely wrapped up before the nomination (except for a few Bernie die-hards that are too few to disrupt things). I doubt HRC will be publicly plotting the downfall of all the heels what crossed her the day after the convention is over, like the loon on the other side did. Why not wait until the general election campaign starts before criticizing the campaign?
chopper
trump also said “I never had a second thought in my life.” makes sense as he hasn’t even had a first one.
FlipYrWhig
@Betty Cracker: This seems to be the talking point du jour. My bigger Berniac friends were doing it on Facebook all morning. “She can’t just be AGAINST Trump, she has to stand for actual progressive things, and where are they?” Hopefully the convention speech will knock that down.
Villago Delenda Est
@gogol’s wife: They really have no clue as to how revolutions usually turn out. The Who pretty much captured the historical record with “Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.”
philadelphialawyer
@hovercraft:
Yes, but not just his opponent’s emails, but her emails from when she was Secretary of State. In effect, Trump is calling for the Russians to hack in the US State Department’s database. Not treason, I don’t think. Perhaps not a violation of any law. But it does seem like encouraging foreign espionage against the US government, even if only rhetorically.
gogol's wife
@FlipYrWhig:
Dream on.
Why don’t we focus on the people in the middle? They’re more likely to be won over than the Bernie or bust crowd.
Calouste
@goblue72: The owner of this blog is generally regarded as a mixed bag, and probably the least valuable frontpager, by most of the commenters here. Good rants occasionally, but also a lot of misses. Nothing of the consistently high caliber of Adam Silverman, Betty Cracker, or Richard Mayhew.
Bobby Thomson
@Betty Cracker: pro tip: liberal isn’t.
goblue72
@Chyron HR: I do think the first day of the convention skewed a bit too heavy on identity politics. It was the first day of the convention, and to a certain degree the first day is always about giving stage time to the laundry list of the various base interest groups in the party. But it was noticeable. And the primary function of conventions these days is a marketing one and the crafting of an image about the candidate and the overall campaign narrative, as its connection with assembling the voter coalition for the respective campaign. Part of that is solidifying base support – and part of that is mitigating the bleeding votes such that the votes you gain on the margins exceed the votes you lose on the margins.
We have an electoral map this year that could get a little atypical in the Midwest due to Trump. So yes, I found the first day in terms of that context to be a bit off and feel a bit like the Dems were fighting the last election and not the current one.
Schlemazel Khan
@efgoldman:
There are several words you can’t use & there is no warning, it just refuses to post your comment. Words like Casino and even relax have to be gamed. I am not aware that the list is available so it is very frustrating because you have to guess what caused the problem.
slag
@Chris:
I used to think that prevention was possible, but it seems like nearly everybody has a Loose Seal inside them just waiting to get out. And once it’s out, there’s no putting it back in, leaving perpetually escalating appeasement as the only option.
Mark B
Honestly, he should be deported and kept in exile for the rest of his natural life. Revoke his citizenship.
goblue72
@Calouste: We are just gonna disagree about whether the ones you list are high caliber.
patroclus
Lots and lots of Asian Americans this afternoon. One of the fastest growing Democratic blocs. One of my ex-roommates was Japanese American (and his folks were interned during WWII) and he was sort of a Dem, but he used to vote for Republicans for lower offices and he definitely voted for John Anderson. Now, after marrying a very liberal wife, he is a staunch Dem, through and through. Trump hasn’t targeted Asian Americans as much as others, but having experienced oppression, they are not on his side. They want civil rights and immigration reform and are a very important constituency.
Emma
@liberal: And this is why ultimately I don’t pay attention to you. Hillary’s agenda is clearly spelled out The woman has released plan upon plan. She discusses actual actions during speeches and town halls.
Liberal my tochis.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@goblue72: doing any grass roots organizing and activism from your cubicle today, Dwight?
Mnemosyne
@gogol’s wife:
Interesting bit that one of the Genius.com commenters brought up: the actual line as written is, “I’m a trust fund, baby, you can trust me.” And since we know LMM the writer is playing comma games throughout the show, knowing where the comma goes inside the line does change the meaning.
Bobby Thomson
@gogol’s wife: oh. So you’ve discussed me?
Bill E Pilgrim
@efgoldman:
Russia, if you have this Balloon-Juice commenter’s comment, release it! We’d love to see it!
philadelphialawyer
@goblue72:
Oh, blow it out your ass.
We WANT it to be quite “noticeable” that Black, Brown and vagina-bearing humans are prominent in our party, as opposed to the other one.
And, by they way, I think Hillary and her team know a lot more about the “function” of the convention and the “electoral map” than you do. What you “feel” means nothing. At all.
Schlemazel Khan
@FlipYrWhig:
You’re assuming they are paying any attention. Sadly for too many their minds are made up & they don’t want any facts to confuse them so they ignore the convention.
bystander
@gogol’s wife: Yeah. Only Trump should be allowed to use Russian slogans.
chopper
@goblue72:
whatever you say, anonymous asshole on the internet
Schlemazel Khan
@philadelphialawyer:
Yes, hacking into any computer you do not have permission to is a crime. Even something as simple as learning someones password & logging in without permission is a crime.
Peale
@FlipYrWhig: they keep saying that. Every single day. “You can’t scare us!” Then when she talks about what she’ll do, they won’t listen. They want to do one thing. Progressivism under Bernie is reduced to wrecking the economy to get at the banks. Since she doesn’t talk about revenge economics, they won’t listen.
Miss Bianca
@Chris: *snort*
Well, at least *that* protester’s sign gets a thumbs-up for creativity. I guess the ones that bug me are the life-long Democrats of my acquaintance who are all yelling about “Corruption in the DNC!!” being the reaons they’re going to vote for Jill Stein – or, at least, say they’re going to. (I did get one of them to admit – grudgingly – that HRC’s presidency would be better for the country than Trump’s, but I am “nasty” for pointing out that his preferred candidate actually endorsed HRC, while all this guy can do is bitch about the fucking emails – Hillary’s, DNC functionaries, whatever – thereby turning himself into a useful idiot for the right-wing).
FlipYrWhig
@gogol’s wife: I think there’s still room for grudging progressives to be pleasantly surprised by what the actual Hillary actually wants to do. I think a lot of her detractors got hung up on the idea that she’s a boardroom corporate faux feminist like Sigourney Weaver in Working Girl or something and still, even despite Bill’s speech, haven’t absorbed the lifelong commitment to, yes, INTERSECTIONALITY. I tend to think that if Hillary had never married Bill she’d be kind of the social-Justice version of Elizabeth Warren.
Keith G
Soooo…..Bernie is fading into memory and the regular commenters here who have been Bernie supporters (as far as I have read) are pitching in behind HRC. And they are still getting jumped for repeating some of the most innocuous stuff.
Priceless.
Bill E Pilgrim
@Schlemazel Khan: The funniest one in past years was learning that “socialist” was actually triggering moderation because it contained “cialis”.
As do many of our dear readers, I assume.
Mnemosyne
@Bobby Thomson:
If there is not an explicit “Hamilton” shout-out by the end of the convention — and perhaps an appearance by, say, Christopher Jackson? — I will have a very serious disappoint.
ETA: It probably wouldn’t be LMM because, unless he’s seriously faking us out, he’s in Puerto Rico right now.
patroclus
Would you guys stop ganging up on goblue, please!? S/he has said that s/he supports Clinton now several times – just because Bernie was his/her candidate doesn’t mean that every single post deserves vitriol. If you disagree, just disagree – why all the putdowns?
philadelphialawyer
@Schlemazel Khan:
Right, but, again, it is not just any person whom Trump is saying should be hacked. It is the Secretary of State. Which means he is encouraging hacking and spying on the US government. Which, crime or not, is just totally outrageous.
Waldo
@FlipYrWhig:
In light of recent events, I’d say that’s good enough for me.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Peale: The “white working class” and the BernieBrats won’t look at her agenda, and won’t take yes for an answer when it’s explained to them.
philadelphialawyer
@patroclus: Because he is concern trolling. And because he is borderline, or worse, racist and sexist. Duh.
Villago Delenda Est
@patroclus: Because he’s being an asshole, that’s why.
philadelphialawyer
@Keith G: Boo hoo.
Mnemosyne
@Keith G:
You may have missed it, but goblue72 trotted out some seriously sexist assholery yesterday, so he’s getting a hard time today.
FlipYrWhig
@goblue72: Or, to put it another way, a party whose base consists of people of color and middle-aged women of all races used the first days of their convention to highlight the faces and concerns of people of color and middle-aged women of all races. It’s almost like when you look at it that way it makes total sense!
Mnemosyne
@patroclus:
Because he trotted out some seriously sexist assholery yesterday. If he would like to publicly and sincerely apologize for telling me “your vagina is not magic,” I am willing to accept an apology, but I’m not going to let it slide.
Schlemazel Khan
@efgoldman:
I assume. I had the same problem with comments just disappearing because I used that r word. It was a fairly long comment but I copied it before it vaporized so I tried the magic on many words & it worked. Over time I discovered that one word. I had a nice comment vaporized a couple night ago that I didn’t copy and the only word I could imagine was kni-fe but I didn’t bother trying to repost it or learn a new magic word
Miss Bianca
@patroclus: “Comey should merely lecture Trump on being very very careless with his language.”
But will he, tho’? I mean, Trump’s only calling for the Russians to hack the ex-SOS, after all. That’s NOTHING compared to HER crime of having that darn private email server!//
(which is starting to look like a sounder and sounder idea, given all this).
FlipYrWhig
@patroclus: For context I’d tell you to google “magic vagina” but I suspect your browser cache would never be the same.
hovercraft
@dmsilev:
Hey I want to see the eruption, but given his performance earlier, I’m thinking they may lock him in his panic roon. Cause you know he has one.
aimai
@patroclus: You know, goblue has said some horrenndously shitty things to the other commenters, whether on behalf of Bernie or just out of pure meanness. I basically skip his/her comments because they have always been stupidly inflammatory and often quite ugly. If someone else here choses to remember shit he/she said who are you to tell them to ignore it? I can assure you that whether someone says they are going to vote for HRC or not is not the single most important thing about them as a commenter–even if you believe things commenters say about their politics online, which I don’t. There are people here who contribute to a sense of community and comity, regardless of their pro bernie status, and people who don’t–regardless of their theoretical pro-hillary status.
Fair Economist
@goblue72:
The keynote speakers for *both nights* of the convention so far have been straight white men but there’s still too much identity politics.
White privilege at work.
FlipYrWhig
@Mnemosyne:
Phrasing!
If I said you had a magic vagina, would you hold it against me?
[runs away before brickbats]
slag
@philadelphialawyer: I like how featuring black/brown/womanly/other people is seen as making a political statement while completely ignoring those people is not. It’s akin to closing your eyes and thinking no one can see you. Keep closing your eyes, white supremacists; we can still see you!
Schlemazel Khan
@Bill E Pilgrim:
I got my liquid cealis mixed up with white-out
woke up with a huge correction.
sorry, I love that stupid joke
philadelphialawyer
@Miss Bianca: Not merely the ex SOS, but her emails from when she WAS SoS. So, its the US government that he is ultimately calling for to be hacked. And its sensitive, foreign affairs wing at that.
JPL
@philadelphialawyer: Some call it treason. In Trump’s case, they’re just excuse it as mental illness.
D58826
Interesting counterfactual on Trump-Putin connection http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2016/07/26/trump-putin-fallacy-failure-of-imagination/
EthylEster
@Trollhattan: quoted a “hero” who said “I will row through shit for you, America”.
Somehow I’m thinking that she is rowing through shit for herself as well.
Elite athletes are a fairly self-absorbed lot.
IMO an athlete cannot be a hero by playing a sport.
Another case of the total debasement of the term “hero”.
Schlemazel Khan
@philadelphialawyer:
Well, it does not make him any less qualified to be POTUS than he was before he did that . . . :D
jonas
Can you imagine how epic it would be if emails relating to the Trump campaign at the RNC were ever hacked and released? Reading some of those memos would probably just require sitting back with a cigarette afterwards.
seaboogie
@efgoldman:
Thanks ef – a salute to you and the onion on your belt – and cheers to the Dem machine and the Electoral College!
BR
@srv:
Don’t mock it. Bruce knows what he’s talking about, and is echoing what Adam wrote about. Our voting systems are vulnerable and we need to secure them.
Bobby Thomson
@Mnemosyne: that’s always bugged me because it doesn’t make any sense.
patroclus
@Miss Bianca: Of course not – Trump’s treason-like statements are only a 1-day story. In order to generate an investigation, we would have to complain about loudly every single hour of every single day for months and months and the media would have to bring it up in every conceivable relevant story. But we don’t have a Republican echo chamber, so this story will fade, probably by tonight. Nonetheless, it is worse than Clinton’s e-mail’s by miles. And everyone should realize that.
Also, I believe that all vaginas are magic.
dogwood
@goblue72:
Most people only have time to watch the main speakers in the evening. The prime time speakers on day 1 were just fine. What happens, and who speaks earlier is always about the base and the party faithful. I think day one was pretty great all day, but if you are worried about these swing voters who eschew “identity” politics, then who do you suggest should have been speaking during prime time?
Jacel
@Trollhattan: Here’s something that sticks in my mind from that movie. “We’ll be back for more of these ugly little dinosaurs that jerk when they move and don’t look very real. But first, this.”
raven
@dogwood: You trying to reason with that fucking jackass?
gogol's wife
@Bobby Thomson:
Me too. But it doesn’t make sense the other way, either, because he’s supposed to be a poor orphan too, right?
Keith G
@goblue72: Here’s where I think you are wrong-ish. HRC’s campaign can play a longer game in it’s messaging. It seems that this convention is willing to leave a few boxes unchecked (Ohio White dudes) and that is okay if Hils and Tim “bus around the Buckeye State” in the very near future – as I am certain they shall.
It’s all good. 30 min of convention time spread over 4 days would not beat out a well planned road trip. Ohio, PA, Iowa, plus and FLA will be seeing a lot of the Clintons and Kaines….and Obamas. The message will be sent.
patroclus
Mayor Di Blasio on now – mostly concerned about income inequality. Decent speech, but not many in the hall as yet.
Miss Bianca
@goblue72:
Or, in other words, too few white dudebros like me, too many black and brown and yellow people – and women, with or without the magic in their lady garden-parts.
Keith G
@Mnemosyne: I did not see, but then was a bit scarce yesterday.
EthylEster
@catclub wrote:
I think BC is a bit over her skis here. Or making a funny. SINAL..IIRC.
Jacel
@jonas: I think Trump was already provided with those RNC emails as they happened, thanks to Putin. That’s why he’s not asking for them, and focusing on Clinton. By the way, Covey’s statement on the FBI investigation said that they were able to recover nearly all of the Clinton emails deleted as being personal. Only a few of them turned out to be related to the State Department.
patroclus
Now an In Memoriam – I think they stole this from Talking Dead.:-)
ruemara
As a magic vagina’d, living, breathing example of identity politics American, I’m always happy to see things that directly affect my life, including whether my life matters, dismissed as secondary. It shows me who to ignore.
Omnes Omnibus
@Keith G: Joe Biden and Tim Kaine score pretty highly on the “seems like an ordinary white guy” scale.
Bobby Thomson
@patroclus: oh fuck that racist, misogynist dick head sideways with a rusty chainsaw. You do realize he’s been rat tucking since the early days of GOS?
Villago Delenda Est
@EthylEster: Well, given that the usual braying asses on the right and alt-right think that Hillary committed treason by having a private email server, what is good for the goose is good for the gander.
Villago Delenda Est
@ruemara: For example, Ralph Nader, who couldn’t give a rats ass about racism or forced birtherism.
Bill E Pilgrim
@Schlemazel Khan:
I’m not even letting that joke penetrate my consciousness enough to acknowledge it.
Well okay maybe just the tippex.
D58826
@Jacel: One of the most depressing things about reading this blog is the love that people have with ‘fact’s. We all know they have a liberal bias and are in the tank for Hillary/Obama. Not to mention that they also stole the election from Bernie. (SNARK)
seaboogie
@goblue72: I work PT in the jewelry business, and see an opportunity here to fill a certain need. I realize that some – especially the gents among us – might not feel comfortable purchasing their own pearls in person, and that men’s neck sizes tend to be larger. So if your involvement in this election consists solely of virtual pearl-clutching (v GOTV action), I might be able to help you out. Please advise the size desired, and I will do my bit to offer aid and comfort.
philadelphialawyer
@Keith G: Well, that’s a relief! Good to know that you and GoBlue are on the case, monitoring Hillary’s Pandering to the White Men output.
jl
@Keith G: Convention is barely over half way through. I have a feeling all boxes will be checked before it is over. I doubt overly sensitive and concerned white dudes obsessing over their nose count of every second of demographics from mid-afternoon on are representative of any group that will consider voting Democratic in November.
Chyron HR
@goblue72:
I wouldn’t worry about Democrats going too heavy on identity politics. After all, we had a genuine identity politic at the top of the ticket in 2008 and 2012, and he won in an electoral college landslide both times.
Mnemosyne
@Bobby Thomson:
Since I’m currently at home with a migraine, I pulled out my copy of the Hamiltome to check, but sadly he did not provide any enlightenment except to say that it’s his wife’s favorite line. Damn him!
@gogol’s wife:
Burr is a rich orphan, at least within the show. That’s part of why his song is, “Wait For It” — it’s implied that the legacy he was left was not just his privileged family background, but at least some money to go with it.
JMG
Look, 40 percent of the electorate has already chosen Trump. Their reasons are not nice ones (they want their race and/or gender to give them social prestige they haven’t earned on merit), so they don’t admit it even to themselves. They are unreachable by facts, logic or an appeal to decency. The trick is going after the 20 percent or so who haven’t made up their minds or have changed their minds more than once already. Stories about loyal supporters remaining loyal supporters are not news and not a useful guide for political action.
gogol's wife
@Mnemosyne:
Then it would make more sense without the comma.
The libretto is not flawless — Nathanael Greene is misspelled as Nathaniel Green. Which is interesting, since one of his descendants is a professor at LMM’s alma mater.
Bill E Pilgrim
@Mnemosyne: You still haven’t read Fallen Founder have you? Come on, admit it.
ruemara
@Keith G: I don’t think you’d view it as innocuous if they said lgbt rights were identity politics & inferred that they were trivial. Look, I appreciate the kumbayaya call, but sometimes, the problem is certain parties are still dicks, doing dickish things for a lost dick cause, while saying it’s ok because they at least say the support the sane candidate. I appreciate their support, but I’m gonna say they’re still being dicks. I promise to hug in mutual brotherhood the minute they stop being dicks.
jonas
@Josie: I think the case can be made — not without some difficulty — that Snowden is a legitimate whistleblower who was intending to shed light on wrongdoing by the government, not betray it to a foreign power. Assange on the other hand is a class A douchebag and has fully admitted that Wikileaks put the DNC emails out there to sabotage Hillary Clinton. That’s illegal interference in an election and and he should be indicted for it (and hope he screws up and somehow enters a country where he’s arrested and extradited).
Mnemosyne
@Keith G:
He did not exactly cover himself in glory, and I was not the only Vagina-American here who was left feeling chafed by his remarks.
(Hey, I can’t let the dudes own all of the bad puns applicable to this situation.)
gogol's wife
@Mnemosyne:
Silverman had that joke about “putting some cream on it.”
Mnemosyne
@philadelphialawyer:
Don’t be too hard on Keith G — he missed yesterday’s meltdown by goblue72.
patroclus
@Mnemosyne: I’ve recently been reading pages 570-77 of Chernow’s biography of Hamilton on his role in the enactment of the Alien and Sedition Acts. It’s not a pretty story.
D58826
@hovercraft: Hasn’t he also said that if elected he will order his DOJ to prosecute Hillary over the e-mails. And his convention was quite vocal in the lock her up and kill her chants.
Miss Bianca
@ruemara: OK, two great phrases have come up during the course of this thread: “revenge economics” (which I think was Betty C’s), and “lost dick cause”. Brava!
seaboogie
@Adam L Silverman: You are our yeoman – frilly apron and tiara not withstanding. Sorry, Bub. You are just too good at this stuff.
philadelphialawyer
@Mnemosyne: Yeah, but he didn’t miss today’s GoBlue talk about “too much identity,” did he?
And, beyond that, I guess I just don’t like KG’s constant, “Well, Hilary is not doing badly, but she probably needs to do this, that and the other to meet my high standards of how she should run her campaign,” schtik. I find it annoying.
Mnemosyne
@Bill E Pilgrim:
I have not — I’ll admit that the reviews turned me off. It sounded like the author went a little too far in her defense of Burr.
I still think you would like the show more than you think. Burr is definitely not presented as a one-dimensional villain. In fact, one of the major themes is that the reason he and Hamilton end up in conflict so often is that they’re two sides of the same coin, and the tragedy happens when each of them tries to act like the other and screws it up.
D58826
@jonas:
Maybe yes and maybe no. I always had mixed emotions about him. Hiding out in Moscow is not the sign of a patriot but the early emails about the NSA, etc did reveal that the US Govt. was violating peoples rights.
nastybrutishntall
@goblue72: Concern troll is concerned.
Citizen_X
@Chris:
And why should they? You see all those Party delegates, in their top hats and monocles?
Mnemosyne
@patroclus:
It’s not, but I felt that Chernow did a good job of putting the Acts into the context of the ongoing French Revolution and the refugees from the Terror living in the US while not excusing them or whitewashing anyone who supported them. I wouldn’t be surprised if he had the Patriot Act in mind when he was writing that part, or at least expected his readers to have it in mind.
As I’ve said before, there are several parts in the book where it feels like Chernow would like to reach back through history and slap some sense into Hamilton, and IIRC that’s another one of those parts.
patroclus
Muchos Latinos ahora! Me gusta! Me amo Hispanicos! Que Bueno!
nastybrutishntall
@srv: Hitting civilian targets is obviously never an act of war. This is what you learn in Trump University.
Mnemosyne
@D58826:
That was interesting — thanks! That’s one of the reasons I keep saying “thumb on the scales” rather than “controlled by Russia” or some such. Putin and Russian intelligence wanting to create some chaos and maybe help along a candidate they think would be more amenable to their interests is not the same thing as Trump being secretly controlled by Putin.
I think Trump has freely chosen this path and this alliance and hasn’t been duped in any way. He thinks getting Putin’s support is a good idea. That in itself should be disqualifying, IMO.
Berial
@? Martin: I realize that but I’m seeing it ‘for reals’ on my Facebook page. I’m just getting really tired of no compromise, my way or the highway, you disagree with me you should go to jail, black and white ‘reasoning’ on the Right, I DO NOT want to see that shit take root on the left and yet here we go with the Sanders supporters (former..I guess now?) acting like the Tea Party Left.
? Martin
@Citizen_X: That must be infinitely amusing* to the countless black people and immigrants attending the DNC.
*by which I mean infuriating
Keith G
@philadelphialawyer:
Dude(tte), That notion of reaching out to that audience is not unique to me. Take the stick out of your ass and after washing your hands (or not as you prefer) type clinton + ohio into your browser window.
Lord…just in case….I will start you out:
Gawwwww
nastybrutishntall
@goblue72: I spend my time in a spaceship. It’s true, I just said it. Trust me.
philadelphialawyer
@Keith G: Well then, I guess we don’t really need you and GoBlue after all, because, waddayaknow, Hillary and her team have not only already figured out, all on their own, that Ohio matters, and GoBlue was not only “wrong-ish,” but flat out wrong, as Hillary is NOT going to totally neglect the fee-fees of the poor widdle white men, and give them a big sad! Hey didja hear, she even picked a white man as her VP?! Go figure! And, funny that too, cuz I heard all weekend how doing so was a slap in the face of Latinos and African Americans and women, from the Sanders Deadenders on TV (you know, the folks who supported the candidate who doesn’t give a shit about Latinos, African Americans and women). Same old, same old “Clinton rules,” damned if she does, damned if she doesn’t.
Stick that in your ass, and leave it there.
Keith G
.@philadelphialawyer:I do not get your unfocused spew of anger, but maybe that is not the best use of my time.
But since we are on the same side….I will leave you with this.
Look at the cross tabs of the Public Policy Poll done last week. Hillary is about 10 pts below Obama’s favorability #s. IIRC, she is at around 34% over all. Interestingly, self-identified moderate Democrats only bump her up a few additional points. She needs to reach out to them a bit more it seems.
She can’t get much more of the Black vote then she already has @90%, but she is losing Whites to Trump 39 to 50.
Now you can dump on me all you want to, I am sure it is great fun, but the point is that she needs to get some more non-minority votes on her side in that state. She will get a (I trust) good bounce next week and that will help. She still needs to make her case and snag as many extra white voters as she can – regardless of what you think of those voters or of me.
The Thin Black Duke
Keith G still has no idea how smug and condescending he sounds, does he?
Keith G
@The Thin Black Duke: And that’s a problem here….how?
philadelphialawyer
My annoyance, not “anger,” is all about folks who think Hillary needs a primer in basic electoral politics from random internet commenters. It smacks of concern trolling, in the case of GoBlue, and of paternalistic patronization, in your case.
You providing still more pointers to Hillary (“she NEEDS to get” this, “she STILL NEEDS to make” that) doesn’t do anything to make me less annoyed.
And, for the record, you were the one who first started “spewing” stuff about people’s asses, and their personal hygiene, and so forth.
Omnes Omnibus
@Keith G:
What percentage of the white vote did Romney get?
philadelphialawyer
@The Thin Black Duke: No, I think not. I actually think that he means well, and is in good faith.
ETA: Eh, or maybe he does, as he seems to take “smug and condescending” as a compliment!
Keith G
@philadelphialawyer: This is a blog. Folks type “(fill in the blank) needs to…” every day.
I did respond sharply to…
as it put words in my mouth implying desired ethnocentric outcome (Hils needs to be kinder to white men). If I missread that, than that’s on me.
What I do feel is that middle class white voters in Ohio will cast a lot of votes in 3 months and Hillary needs more of their support than she is getting. GoBlue seemed to be feaked that little attention was being paid to them and I intoned that he could chill because attention would be paid.
That is when you popped in and referenced me. If I misread your underlying message, than I apologize.
But if you could tell me how I committed paternalistic patronization, that would be a big help.
Betty Cracker
@Omnes Omnibus: Almost exactly the same, IIRC. I’ve been predicting for months that the gender gap will be historic and think that’ll put us over the top. I stand by that prediction, such as it is, given my lousy record of prognostication.
Omnes Omnibus
Two white guys in a row – for those who are keeping score.
philadelphialawyer
@Keith G: Jeez, I already spelled it out for you, more than once, but I will try again. Hillary is a national politician. She has been one for twenty years. She has lost one election in her life, and that was by a nose, and to BHO. She has twice been elected Senator from New York State. She has now become the first woman to ever win a major party nomination for president. She went to Yale Law School. She was top of her class at Wellsely. OK? She knows all about white votes, and Ohio and Pennsylvania, and so on. She doesn’t “need” you, or GoBlue, to tell her what she “needs” to do. And, no, the other commenters here do NOT have the same, or even similar, “Gee, Hillary NEEDS to win more votes than Trump to win” constant refrain that you do. I will also point out that it is preposterous to the point of, yes, paternalistic patronization, for you to even think that your Level One/Politics 101 apercus would be some sort of revelation to Hillary (if she bothered to read them, which she won’t). Get it now?
Keith G
@Omnes Omnibus: I would have to look that up, but as she is tied over-all (in that poll) picking up more support from all the availible cracks and crevices seem a good thing.
Now one important disclaimer to all this. There is a some sound theorizing going on that Trump’s good #’s are in reality inflated because of his lack of GOTV. That is in this case… 50% say they support, but only 40% might actually get asses to a polling place. But that is only an untested theory.
Troublesome Carp fka Geeno
@catclub: Tell that to the Rosenbergs
Omnes Omnibus
@philadelphialawyer:
Dude, she blogs here as srv. Don’t judge; everyone needs some form of stress relief.
Keith G
@philadelphialawyer: Do you watch football? Ever watch folks who are watching football?
“Don’t pass, don’t pass, for god’s sake don’t pass the fucking ball!!!” The guys on the field are well paid and highly trained professionals and we are happy to tell them how to run the play. Is that being paternalistic?
Again this is a blog. I send Hillary my money. I have never sent her a note giving her advice.
Betty Cracker
@philadelphialawyer: FWIW (nothing) from a random internet commenter, Keith G is a good egg overall. He’s been commenting here for years that I know about, and like everyone else, shoots the shit about political strategy, etc., along with the rest of us amateurs. We don’t always agree, but he’s not a dickhead or sexist. GoBlue, on the other hand…
aimai
@philadelphialawyer: Bingo!
aimai
@Keith G: Right–its so not original that why did you bother explaining it to us? Its already her fucking strategy. She doesn’t need to be reminded that she needs every vote. But the other thing is that until now she has been running against Bernie Sanders and his crew of gibbering morons so every.single.time. she said anything that they didn’t approve they howled like monkeys and began throwing shit. So, no, she hasn’t fully rolled out all aspects of her campaign yet. She was perhaps waiting until some other stuff was sewn up, like her left flank.
Keith G
Am I hurting Hillary’s feelings then?
Again, we all bullshitting about what should, could, might, or must happen. No one is beating down your door for advice, nor are they mine. We are killing spare time by engaging in conjuncture and speculation. It’s what happened in Philadelphia in the late 1700s and it is what we are doing some 220 years later about what is going on in Philadelphia now.
It’s what interested partisans tend to do. The running back doesn’t need to be reminded to hang on to the football, but fans (most of whom “really love that guy”) still shout a reminder anyway.
Help me with this…
I guess part of my fault (in the eyes of some here) is that I no longer place any of my ego value in the performance or reputations of political leaders. Maybe in an all too jaded manner, I view them as sort of commodities.
They show up.
We choose the best ones (we hope) and we know that they will do so things well and some things less well.
We are invested in their choices since our futures are linked to it.
They are a temporary means to an end.
Others seem to have quite an investment of identity in political leader (eg Reagn worship). I do not.
I vote. I give money, I volunteer, I compliment, I criticize. and I try to have fun the the process by not endeavoring to not confuse gibbering about politics with real life.
Is this the standard for B-J comments:
It better be original. No restating what has already been reported or is already being done?
Hmmm.
philadelphialawyer
@Keith G: Aimai explained it well.
But, to follow your lead, yeah, when I watch the game I yell obvious shit at the TV. But I don’t go on the Jets forum, write “the Jets need to score more points than their opponents to win,” and then think I have contributed something new or insightful, or said something the coach, players or GM don’t already know.
@Betty Cracker:
I don’t think he is a dickhead but, intentionally or not, his constant pointing out of the obvious for Hillary’s ostensible benefit comes across as patronizing. This, to me, is not the usual amateur “stratergizing” that everyone does, but ridiculously self important mansplaining instead.
Keith G
@Keith G: Double negatives Time to rest.
Keith G
@philadelphialawyer: Talking about sport….I yield to the tag team.
But I guess we just have a different view of blogging traditions.
The mansplaining thing…..I think I will just side step this trap.
Keith G
@philadelphialawyer: I forgot to add…Thanks for the back and forth. I value being pushed just as I value giving an “expert opinion”. This place is a bit of a substitute for the dinner table I used to sit at a few decades ago.
Many lively discussions, most of them on the good side of contentiousness.
philadelphialawyer
@Keith G: All good. I know we are all on the same “team.” And I want no fumbles just as much as you do!
jonas
@D58826: Well, considering that at the time, he was probably looking at a life sentence in solitary at some federal Supermax prison, I don’t blame him for bugging out, even to Russia. Look at how well things turned out for Chelsea Manning!