Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

I did not have this on my fuck 2025 bingo card.

The current Supreme Court is a dangerous, rogue court.

I am pretty sure these ‘journalists’ were not always such a bootlicking sycophants.

If you cannot answer whether trump lost the 2020 election, you are unfit for office.

“Can i answer the question? No you can not!”

One of our two political parties is a cult whose leader admires Vladimir Putin.

This has so much WTF written all over it that it is hard to comprehend.

Authoritarian republicans are opposed to freedom for the rest of us.

We will not go back.

fuckem (in honor of the late great efgoldman)

“I was told there would be no fact checking.”

Just because you believe it, that does not make it true.

“The defense has a certain level of trust in defendant that the government does not.”

People are weird.

The fundamental promise of conservatism all over the world is a return to an idealized past that never existed.

The press swings at every pitch, we don’t have to.

Republicans are radicals, not conservatives.

The worst democrat is better than the best republican.

Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

A norm that restrains only one side really is not a norm – it is a trap.

There are more Russians standing up to Putin than Republicans.

We are aware of all internet traditions.

Whoever he was, that guy was nuts.

T R E 4 5 O N

You are here: Home / Elections / Election 2016 / Monday Evening Open Thread: Debating the “Master”

Monday Evening Open Thread: Debating the “Master”

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It was an actual “talent” when Trump was working to gin up publicity for one of his dubious business ventures, from his first slapdash condo developments up to his reality-tv triumphs. As a method for quashing discussion of his many many political gaffes, not so much…

Clinton’s campaign manager:


… And there’s the downside to being Gifted At Twitter: the Twitterverse knows Trump, and can turn every Trump bullshit clip into a hashtag, which further spreads the impression that Trump is just another Reddit meme made angry sweating flesh. Over the weekend, we got not just #TrumpExcuses, but also #FakeTrumpIntelligenceBriefings:

Reader Interactions

320Comments

  3. 3.

    Mnemosyne

    I’m starting to think we need a “malarkey” t-shirt.

    Also, as I suspected, it sounds like the Clinton campaign isn’t going to play Donnie’s little reindeer games.

  4. 4.

    Baud

    I don’t know how well Clinton will handle the Gish Gallop and crappy moderators, but this

    Suspect that the debates will be interesting because HRC may be the first opponent who isn’t intimidated by Trump.

    is right on. She’s tough as nails.

  6. 6.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Baud: also, doesn’t have to worry about alienating the Mouth Breathers and the Howler Monkeys

  7. 7.

    Mary G

    Hillary is in Omaha today, trying to get that one electoral vote. Warren Buffet spoke and said that his tax return is also being audited, but he is happy to release it if Trump will release his.

  11. 11.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Mary G: as somebody pointed out, Omaha media also reaches big chunks of Iowa, and the national media love Buffett

  12. 12.

    JasonF

    There are exactly two days in the year that don’t have professional sports (MLB, NFL, NBA, NHL) — the day before the baseball All-Star game and the day after it. And even the former has the home run derby.

    But maybe, as a compromise with Trump, we can schedule the debates to avoid any USFL games. Oh, wait …

  14. 14.

    schrodinger's cat

    In honor of the Khans and their courage, I give you Sufi music interlude
    Kun Faya Kun from the 2011 movie Rockstar, music composed by A. R. Rahman (Of Slum Dog fame). It is shot in one of the most famous dargas in Delhi, Nizamuddin darga.

    Dargas are shrines to Sufi saints, usually their burial place. You can find them all over India, they are open to anyone of any faith.

  15. 15.

    lamh36

    @AriMelber
    Oh, it’s just the GOP nominee shouting out the primary opponent to the GOP Speaker, another day on the trail.

    @realDonaldTrump
    Thanks to @pnehlen for your kind words, very much appreciated.

  20. 20.

    HinTN

    @Mnemosyne: Oh, yes we do! Cafépress, where are you? (I got my brand new Tunch Obama FEED tee in the mail last week, so I know they’re still functional.)

  22. 22.

    Baud

    I’ll say again, I’ll always hate Trump for making me appreciate the few Republicans who have rejected him.

  23. 23.

    Schlemazel

    @schrodinger’s cat:
    I used to have some Sufi music on my old PC, lost it in the fire & have never been able to recover it. The guy’s name was something Khan (not very helpful I know) but he did these long, epic songs & they were hypnotic.

  27. 27.

    Kay

    @Baud:

    Expect another boring, exhaustive evaluation of her server practices.

    Toward the end they’ll get around to asking Donald Trump what he’s been up to the last 50 years.

  32. 32.

    BR

    @Mary G:

    That 1 EV could be critical. The current worst case electoral college setup for Clinton is a 269-269 tie. That EV could be the difference between a house of representatives mess and a win.

  33. 33.

    D58826

    Listening to Gopers in Congress bobbing and weaving about who they will vote for. And these are the ‘reasonable’ ones.

    A Mother with a son in the AF asked Pence when he would condemn Trump’s statements. She was booed. And while Pence sort of tried to tamp down the boos he would not condemn Trump. Instead he said well this is democracy in action.

  40. 40.

    philadelphialawyer

    @JasonF: Actually, there are now two days of no MLB games after the All Star Game. But the MLS has games then. And, this year, there was the (British) Open Golf tournament and the Tour de France during that time. There are now literally no days a year without sporting events.The complaint is just completely ridiculous.

  41. 41.

    Kay

    @Baud:

    It makes me tear up with boredom. When we have to hire IT people I think “if you make me listen to this explanation out of politeness I’m never hiring you again”

  43. 43.

    JasonF

    @Mary G: while I’m sure Hillary would be happy to have that EV, I think it’s more to do with the fact that Buffet is a national figure who gets national press, with a second order effect of the fact that western Iowa is in the Omaha media market. Going for Omaha’s EV is only the third most important reason she’s there.

  44. 44.

    schrodinger's cat

    @Ernest Pikeman: His nephew, Rahat Fateh Ali Khan is pretty good. I like Mohit Chauhan and Arjit Singh, they are not as famous internationally.

    Among women, I like the Nooran sisters. Here they are singing a song composed by Rahman for the movie Highway.

  46. 46.

    Villago Delenda Est

    Here we are, the 1st of August, 99 days from the election itself, and Teh Donald is already preparing his post election strategy for his conniption fits, and he’s doing it in public.

  48. 48.

    Quinerly

    The Vegan Sarah Palin (I just love that moniker) is saying if she is elected president, she will pardon Snowden and appoint him to a cabinet position. Link at Washington Monthly.

  49. 49.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Keep holding his coat, Paulie, maybe he’ll tip you at Christmas

    Benjy Sarlin ‏@ BenjySarlin 5m5 minutes ago
    tfw you’re speaker and you endorse Trump and he shouts out your primary opponent to 10.5m followers anyway
    Donald J. Trump @ realDonaldTrump
    Thanks to @ pnehlen for your kind words, very much appreciated.

  55. 55.

    rikyrah

    Ali Vitali ✔ @alivitali
    A few of us here just had to check. Yes, Trump just called Hillary Clinton “the devil.”
    7:25 PM – 1 Aug 2016

  56. 56.

    Quinerly

    I’m curious what you guys think? Should Hillary give a good, old fashioned press conference? Thoughts?

  59. 59.

    JMG

    Buffett is a signal to the investor class, which since the death of my father three years ago (93 and had the most awesome life imaginable) I am part of. Trump’s a threat to our portfolios. Anyone using math and not emotion can see it. It is the argument I use with my Republican family members, and while they aren’t agreeing, they’re listening.

  60. 60.

    The Dangerman

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    Tunch saying “MALARKEY”

    If Tunch could speak, I’m fairly sure the vocabulary would be limited to “Tuna, Asshole”.

    ETA: Maybe “sushi grade”

  63. 63.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Mary G:

    On an earlier thread today, I suggested (and Baud and others embellished and greatly improved the idea) that Buffett, Bloomberg, and Cuban bill themselves as “The Three Billionaires,” put together a road show, and open for Hillary at all her events.

  64. 64.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @Baud: No, because when your opponent is busy self destructing, you should do nothing to divert attention from that. Just stand by and observe.

  65. 65.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Quinerly: I would vote for more one-on-one sit-down interviews. Ideally, I’d like all pols to do more press conferences, but I think it would be all email/”why don’t people like you” questions

    ETA:

    @SiubhanDuinne: Buffett, Bloomberg, and Cuban bill themselves as “The Three Billionaires,”

    Bloomberg is the Billionaire Shemp

  66. 66.

    rikyrah

    FYI:

    Public Service Announcement.

    Everyone CHECK YOUR VOTING STATUS!!!!

    This is 2016. You should be able to check your voting status ONLINE through your local voting jurisdiction.

    And, if you have Senior Citizens in your family:
    1. Check their status
    2. Ask them if they want to do Absentee Voting
    3. Contact your Absentee Voting Unit and ask them when they will be open for business. Hint: the earlier that you get your application in – you will be in the first batch of ballots mailed out when your jurisdiction is able to do so legally.

    If you have family members in the Military – ASK THEM IF THEY HAVE MAILED IN THEIR FPCA SO THAT THEY CAN VOTE.
    You can fill out an FPCA ANYTIME.
    Military/Overseas ballots – the first ballots will be mailed out the last week of September 2016.

    This is summer – bring it up at BBQ’s
    Bring it up at church/temple/mosque.
    Bring it up at the gym.

  67. 67.

    Baud

    @JMG: I can’t believe anyone fortunate enough to have retirement savings would be a Republican based on how the stock market has performed since 1992.

  68. 68.

    Quinerly

    @Baud:
    I’m inclined to agree now that the polls are turning. She’s good under fire, though. Case in point…Benghazi hearings. 9 or 10 hours, wasn’t it?

  69. 69.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @The Dangerman:

    If Tunch could speak, I’m fairly sure the vocabulary would be limited to “Tuna, Asshole”.

    Now, see, I’d pay good money for a t-shirt with Joe Biden saying that.

  70. 70.

    Woodrowfan

    FYI, the latest post on the BJ Facebook page needs a cleanup of a racist troll attacking the Khans.

  71. 71.

    scottinnj

    Serious question – if Trump was trying to throw the election, what would he do differently than he is now? The tweet to Paul Ryan’s primary opponent is exactly the move you wouldn’t make.

    More generally I think the strategy for the next 3 months should be to continue to pound Trump (and his GOP enablers) every day. Time for a tweetstorm, Senator Warren.

  72. 72.

    Kay

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    Voter fraud. He mentions it at every rally now. Such a coward. He’s already covering his ass on a loss and it’s not even Labor Day. If I were a Trumpkin that would worry me.

  74. 74.

    philadelphialawyer

    @Quinerly: But she is all worried about Hill compromising national security with her emails. What a transparently phony POS.

  75. 75.

    Quinerly

    @Villago Delenda Est:
    Well, of course no presser right now. But if this cools…when it cools. The no press conference in 300 days is a bit dogging. I’m inclined to say no, especially with the polls now.

  77. 77.

    japa21

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: I checked why Trump gave him a shout out. He didn’t totally defend Trump but he wrote something on his web site that basically did put down the Khans and then tweeted it out.

    At first I thought it was Ryan’s Dem opponent but it is his primary opponent.

  78. 78.

    Roger Moore

    @Quinerly:

    The Vegan Sarah Palin (I just love that moniker) is saying if she is elected president, she will pardon Snowden and appoint him to a cabinet position.

    I guess Trump isn’t the only one in the election who will say any stupid thing to garner some attention.

  79. 79.

    PigDog

    Someone inside the Trump campaign is going to write a hell of a book when this is over.

    “So when I went up to his room to brief him at his Mar-a-Lago penthouse, he was wearing nothing but tissue boxes on his feet and a tube sock on his junk…”

  81. 81.

    Kay

    @scottinnj:

    It’s entirely possible Trump doesn’t know that man is Ryan’s primary opponent. He’s lazy and there are a lot of states and a lot of races.

  82. 82.

    satby

    @Anne Laurie: Happy Anniversary! And good harvest for Lughnasadh.

    Edited to add: I took advantage of Lughnasadh to post an Omnia video and note that there’s an older religion still practiced in Ireland just to make the uber Catholic rw colonoscopies.

  86. 86.

    scottinnj

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: The primary election is on August 30 – what happens if Ryan loses to Trump’s preferred candidate? Also, too, on August 30 – the GOP Senate primary in Arizona.

    If you think we have reached peak Trump freak-out mode wait until September 1 if Ryan and McCain go down.

  90. 90.

    Quinerly

    Trump has thanked the Harrisburg, PA fire marshall. RWNJ attacking the mayor of Columbus because he spoke at Hillary event. They think he is the linchpin to the Columbus fire marshal conspiracy

  91. 91.

    rikyrah

    Jason Noble ‏@jasonnobleDMR 37m37 minutes ago Omaha, NE

    WarrenBuffett says a “monkey throwing a dart at the stock page” would have better returns than an investor in Donald Trump’s company.

  92. 92.

    Woodrowfan

    @Baud: it’s Facebook. WORSE. this one (which I think has been deleted) was a retired Poly Sci prof who started off calling Mr. Khan a stupid “Paki” and it went downhill from there..

  95. 95.

    Ian

    @Quinerly:
    And what cabinet position does she seem to think he is qualified for? Could he be her vax czar? Maybe the white house spokesperson?

  96. 96.

    scav

    @rikyrah: That preening moldy tangelo is going to start speaking in tongues and handling snakes pretty soon. Choir outreach. TOO many posts to find it (I looked) but there was a tweet posted (from Detroit apparently) where further down there was some polling info comparing Trumpy-Dumpy and Rmoney among regular and irregular church-goers. White evangelicals were holding (both regular and less frequent attendees) where holding, Catholics were down.

  97. 97.

    dmsilev

    @scottinnj: That would be amazing. Not the least of which would be watching the moaning despair from the political reporting world as they’re deprived of two of their favorite Heroic Figures.

  98. 98.

    danielx

    I swear every word of this is true.

    It must be said that the Colorado Rockies (9400 ft) are most pleasant during the first week of August. It’s doing wonders for mental decompression, which was evidently more needed than I thought. I have it on good authority that I was talking in my sleep in my sleep the other night and first spent some time mocking Der Trumpenfuhrer and then cussing him out out some length – I was awakened shortly after emitting “fuck that motherfuckin’ maggot!” at some volume, which the daughter unit thought was absolutely shocking. Never knew a thing about it until I was told…next morning I decided that I needed a break from any further discussion of He, Trump for some as-yet-undetermined period. Mind, this vow may not last long given the daily temptations.

  100. 100.

    dmsilev

    @rikyrah: So, I guess the plan is constant Trump-mockery to goad him into an endless series of foaming fits?

    Works for me.

  101. 101.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Nate Silver could play the young Bernie Sanders.

    At the very least his hair could play young Bernie’s hair.

  104. 104.

    Woodrowfan

    @Baud: I read them every now and then, mostly out of morbid interest. There seems to be a direct relationship on the pages of some of the trolls–the more offensive, reactionary, and racist the troll’s post, the more likely the troll’s own Facebook page is full of “I love Jesus!” posts amid all the RW crap.

  105. 105.

    lamh36

    @tonyschwartz
    Trump can’t apologize for anything, no matter how outrageous. Sense of self-worth too fragile to admit he is wrong, even about the Kahns.

  107. 107.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @rikyrah:

    YAY!!!!! Thanks for that share, didn’t even realize ND was under scrutiny.

    (Edited, because apparently I don’t know the difference between North Dakota and South Dakota.)

  108. 108.

    lamh36

    @JuddLegum 2m2 minutes ago
    Pence on Friday: “I don’t think name calling has any place in public life”

    Trump on Monday: Hillary is the devil

  110. 110.

    Mike J

    You know that Simpsons video below?

    Elizabeth Warren ‏@elizabethforma 6 minutes ago
    Elizabeth Warren Retweeted The Simpsons
    If you don’t think this is how a President Trump would act, I’ve got a shiny new monorail to sell you. #ImWithMargeElizabeth Warren added,

  114. 114.

    jharp

    “So is Clinton going to debate an empty chair?”

    If Trump doesn’t show up that is exactly what Hillary should do.

  117. 117.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Quinerly:

    Actually tissue boxes on his TINY FEET.

    So, the delicate little packs of tissues you tuck in your purse or the glove compartment.

    Not the great big jumbo giant oversized family pack of extra-big extra-strong because it’s February and your sinuses are like Niagara and you’re coughing up a lung every ten minutes.

    Right?

  118. 118.

    cokane

    nobody’s even pointed out but in the age of TV recording ease and ubiquitous day-after internet videos, it really doesn’t matter if the debate was scheduled during the freaking world series.

  119. 119.

    rikyrah

    UH HUH
    UH HUH

    Josh BarroVerified account
    ‏@jbarro
    Clinton keeps campaigning with real billionaires because they, better than anyone else, can argue Trump is a fraud.

  121. 121.

    ? Martin

    @lamh36: Trump has the talk: “Ivanka, remember, you can be anything you set your mind to, unless your boss insists that you blow him and you find that to be icky – then you can be the next best thing you set your mind to.”

  123. 123.

    rikyrah

    Margie
    ‏@Loca2733Mc
    Colin Powell reveals Hillary did nothing different than other SOS. GOP is causing a scandal! #WithdrawDonald NOW!!!

  124. 124.

    JMG

    Off topic, and I’m sorry if it makes you feel old, but it sure did me. “Revolver” was released 50 years ago today. IMO, best Beatles album ever. I admit that’s a statement open to debates.

  125. 125.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @lamh36: The stupid. It burns. Like people can change careers at the drop of a hat. Well, they can, if they have several million in a trust fund…

  126. 126.

    burnspbesq

    @Ian:

    And what cabinet position does she seem to think he is qualified for?

    Plenty of people will tell you that he wouldn’t necessarily be worse than Arne Duncan at Education.

  127. 127.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Jamelle Bouie ‏@ jbouie 23m23 minutes ago
    This is the second time he’s said this and it really sounds like he’s implying an affair between HRC and the Macker.
    Sopan Deb @ SopanDeb
    Ah. Trump just said Terry McAuliffe is closer to Hillary Clinton than Bill Clinton.

  128. 128.

    Jeffro

    – continuing the Khan vendetta
    – getting busted about lying about a letter from the NFL
    – slamming the frickin’ fire department
    – going after CNN (possibly his best ally in the press to date)
    – sending Roger Stone out to start sowing seeds of ‘rigged elections’ and Nov 9th ‘bloodbath’s
    – saying that if Roger Ailes harassed HIS OWN DAUGHTER, he’d…hope she got another job or even career
    – tweeting positive thoughts at his own party’s Speaker of the House’s primary opponent

    AND THAT. IS JUST. MONDAY.

    I am still going to work my butt off for the entire Dem ticket between now and Nov and then just keep going. Fundraiser for local Delegate on a Wednesday night? Sure, I can make time for that. Registering voters most every weekend for 12 weeks? YOU BET.

    I forgive myself for not getting a whole lot done today but dang, it was hard to pull away from…excellent ‘reality TV’, as it were ;)

  131. 131.

    JMG

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: My youngest brother is McAulifffe’s next door (well, estate) neighbor, knows him and likes him as a cheery loony. My bro is also a staunch Republican of the country club variety. If this were true, he’d have told me long ago,

  132. 132.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @Jeffro: The only thing the Dems should do at this point is stand off to the side and enjoy the comforting heat from the dumpster fire.

  135. 135.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @JMG: My youngest brother is McAulifffe’s next door (well, estate) neighbor, knows him and likes him as a cheery loony.

    politics aside, that’s always been my impression of McAuliffe, kinda goofy. But I like what he’s doing with restoring voting rights

  136. 136.

    hueyplong

    About this HRC-McAuliffe thing, it’s starting to sound like Trump stopped listening to the voices in his head long enough for Roger Stone to plant an idea.

  137. 137.

    Woodrowfan

    @JMG: haven’t heard a whisper of that story here in VA. OK, I just read the Democratic blogs for state politics, but if the repubs were spreading that rumor the Blue Blogs would have said something…

  140. 140.

    geg6

    @Major Major Major Major:

    He’s so a Yinzer, but because he doesn’t necessarily sound like one, it’s hard to miss if you aren’t fully conversant with it. He sounds like an asshole and can act like one, especially in regard to sporting events, but he’s not a horrible person deep down. We Pittsburghers have a love/hate/love relationship with him. Michael Keaton is similar, but not exactl the same. He comes across across a lot of times as a smartass, but he’s really smarter than you think and a mensch under the hard shell. So Pittsburgh!

  141. 141.

    Kay

    @lamh36:

    That’s what I don’t get. Thousands of people know Trump- not well, but they’ve worked with him. Why doesn’t media contact any of them?

    This is a job interview. Other than what he himself bellows, we know nothing about what or who he is.

    They followed the Ayres story for months. It was a big part of one whole debate. A Chicago political person that Obama encountered but didn’t know well, one of tens or even hundreds Obama met on his way up. For some reason it was vitally important we find out everything there was to know about that possible “relationship”, yet Trump gets a complete pass. How did they allow this to happen that there’s a chance this person could be President yet all anyone knows is this invented persona? It’s just fact-free. He’s almost a fictional character.

  142. 142.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @JMG:

    Never realized “Revolver” was released the same day Charles Whitman killed all those people on the UT campus.

    Huh.

  143. 143.

    Anoniminous

    Kay doesn’t know the TCP/IP transport layer ensures that packets arrive in sequence and without error, by swapping acknowledgments of data reception, and retransmitting lost packets. This type of communication is known as end-to-end. Transport layer protocols at this level are Transmission Control Protocol (TCP), User Datagram Protocol (UDP), and Stream Control Transmission Protocol (SCTP). TCP and SCTP provide reliable, end-to-end service. UDP provides unreliable datagram service.

    SAD!

  145. 145.

    dmsilev

    NYT breaking news alert, and this is a direct quote:
    “Trump, who criticized the parents of a slain Muslim soldier, received 5 deferments from the Vietnam draft, including 1 for bone spurs”

    Now, the really amusing thing here is that Trump’s chickenhawkery isn’t actually news, it’s been known for a while. But the NYT is blasting this out as a breaking-news story and framing it in an incredibly negative fashion. I guess “trash Trump” is now the in fashion among the reporting class.

  147. 147.

    BR

    @dmsilev:

    I wish they wouldn’t include religion in the headline — makes it like the soldier isn’t a “real” soldier in the mins of those with exiting biases.

  148. 148.

    hilts

    @JMG:

    1966 was a great year for rock

    Blonde on Blonde – Bob Dylan
    Freak Out! – The Mothers of Invention
    Pet Sounds- The Beach Boys
    Parsley, Sage, Rosemary and Thyme – Simon & Garfunkel

  151. 151.

    Bill E Pilgrim

    The more I read about Trump the more I realize that he’s just a more obnoxious version of Ross Perot, I mean in the eyes of those who support him. The appeal is the same, hey the country’s problems are terrible but basically simple. “Jes get under the hood and fix it” was Perot’s, and “Just knock the hell out of them!” is Trump’s version.

    The fact is if the Republicans had even a moderately sane and competent field, Trump would have been an independent spoiler like Perot, not the Republican candidate. What’s even weirder is that Trump is actually ending up as a spoiler as the Republican candidate, destroying them from the inside this time. The crazy is coming from inside the house, and everyone with any sense of self-preservation better just get out.

  152. 152.

    sigaba

    @lamh36:

    @DylanByers
    New @CNN: In shocking remark, Donald Trump says he hopes daughter ‘would find another career’ if sexually harassed

    You know if CNN is willing to exercise the level of judgment required to call a remark “shocking,” you’d think they’d have no problem calling a remark a “lie.” But alas.

  154. 154.

    germy

    @Kay:

    Thousands of people know Trump- not well, but they’ve worked with him.
    Why doesn’t media contact any of them?

    Maybe they’re terrified of talking about him?

  155. 155.

    frosty

    @hilts: For me it’s Rubber Soul, then Revolver, then a few other earlier ones. Sue me but Sgt Pepper is way down on my list of their best.

  157. 157.

    dogwood

    @Kay:
    Obama was a bit unlucky with respect to the Ayers thing. Republicans would have liked to trot Bill Ayers out long before 2008, since Ayers was involved in education reform and charitable foundations for years. The problem was Ayers’ parents were mega-wealthy Republicans, who gave millions to the Party. They were close friends of the Reagans. Don’t remember when Mr. Ayers died, but Mrs. Ayers died shortly before or during the 2007-08 election season. So Bill was fair game after she was gone.

  158. 158.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @dmsilev:

    I guess “trash Trump” is now the in fashion among the reporting class.

    It’s the flavour of the week, but you know before long someone will say, Oh wait, we need to make sure this is balanced, so they’ll dredge up a lot of tired old Hillary stories and trash her for a while, and whatever advantage we’re enjoying now will disappear ::poof::

  159. 159.

    eric

    @Kay: i think they have and the results were predictable dog bites man, i.e., trump is a cheap lying jerk. no story there FOR NOW.

  160. 160.

    ThresherK (GPad)

    @Anoniminous: “Hold on to that sausage and peppers pizza”. Wait, am I mangling the acronym?

    Hey, what do people use on Android to play Youtube audio in the background while on something elsed? I don’t know if I want too keep Firefox just for it. Any good. Apps to try?

  161. 161.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @Bill E Pilgrim: John McCain is in a world of hurt right now. He dare not renounce Drumpf before the primary, because it will only enrage the monster that is out of control. Yet failure to do so makes his attempt to shake the etch-a-sketch in the general that much more difficult, because Kirkpatrick can eviscerate him with his failure to denounce Drumpf.

    He might just be looking at the end of his life, like his grandfather and father before him.

  162. 162.

    germy

    @frosty: What complicates things (for me) is the different versions. The Parlophone albums had more songs and sounded better. The U.S. releases had fewer tracks and were remixed with extra reverb and tacky wide stereo.

  164. 164.

    Mike J

    @frosty:

    For me it’s Rubber Soul, then Revolver,

    I’m with you. Those two were where they were trying to figure out how to be something more. Those albums are the best because they hadn’t really figured it out yet, but knew which direction they were going.

  165. 165.

    sigaba

    @Bill E Pilgrim: Contrived dualism. Trump is not a source of crazy within the Republican Party. The Republican Party is crazy and Trump is merely symptomatic. Is Trump any nuttier than Louie Gohmert or Ted Cruz? Or is it just the style of presentation?

  166. 166.

    raven

    Ya’ll gonna start on 66 don’t be leavin Aftermath out. Those mop tops may have been cute but the Stones didn’t play.

  167. 167.

    Baud

    Paul Begala Verified account
    ‏@PaulBegala

    Paul Begala Retweeted Josh Jordan

    @HillaryClinton was -18 with Independents in last CNN poll. Now +9.

    Paul Begala added,
    Josh Jordan @NumbersMuncher
    CNN poll – Clinton’s leads among:
    Overall +9
    Women +23
    Non-whites +71…

  168. 168.

    Ian

    @burnspbesq:
    I remember hearing speculation at the time that Michael Bennet (now senator) was being floated for education secretary. As I wanted Bennet’s primary opponent (Andrew Romanoff, former speaker of state house) to fill Salazar’s seat I was sad when they choose Duncan. What the past eight years showed me was they made the right call. Bennet has been an awesome senator. Unfortunatly I don’t know about education at the federal level to speak for/against Duncan.

  172. 172.

    hilts

    @Kay:

    Why doesn’t media contact any of them?

    Of all the presidential elections, I’ve followed starting with 1972, this is the worst case of media malpractice I’ve ever seen. CNN and MSNBC executives should be ashamed of themselves, but they’re not capable of feeling shame and only care about their bottom line.

  177. 177.

    Miss Bianca

    @SiubhanDuinne: Oh, nice! It is Lammas-Tide, ain’t it? I know traditions for almost all the great Celtic festivals (ask me about Imbolc! No, really!), but Lammas I know very little about. I would expect it’s something harvest related – unless that’s reserved for the Autumnal Equinox.

    But thanks for helping to cheer me up. I’m in a rotten mood, and it’s all my fault. Bad cess to me for ever attempting to talk politics outside the realm of this blog and my sister, till this cruel election be o’er!

  178. 178.

    rikyrah

    @Ian:

    Unfortunatly I don’t know about education at the federal level to speak for/against Duncan.

    Speak Against Duncan.
    Worst Cabinet choice of POTUS.

  179. 179.

    hilts

    @frosty: @germy: @Mike J:

    Whenever I see rankings of Beatles albums, I’m surprised that A Hard Day’s Night, Help, and Magical Mystery Tour generally don’t rate higher than i think they deserve.

  180. 180.

    raven

    And then there was “The Last Train to Clarksville”.
    It came out in August and I got on the train from Chicago to Ft Campbell in November 66,

    The lyrics tell of a man phoning the woman he loves, urging her to meet him at a train station in Clarksville before he must leave, possibly forever. The Vietnam War was then going on, and what was not made explicit was that the song was about a soldier leaving for the war zone.

    It is often said that the song refers to Clarksville, Tennessee, which is near Fort Campbell, Kentucky, the home of the 101st Airborne Division, which was then serving in Vietnam. However, according to songwriter Bobby Hart, it was not specifically written with that town in mind.

  182. 182.

    dmsilev

    OK, so the ‘breaking news’ thing I mentioned a few minutes ago now has an article, and it’s really about Trump’s draft deferments in the Vietnam era. The article hints very strongly, though doesn’t come out and say, that Trump’s medical deferment (for a bone spur in his heel) wasn’t real.

    Shocking, I know.

  183. 183.

    ThresherK (GPad)

    @Anoniminous: No prob, I was asking anyone here, not trying to single you out cos you know TCP/IP. (I, too, am the guy who.gets to do all things geek for my family and friends. I t some of us are in the house tonite.)

    I found that my favorite radio show, Says You!, is now at the Apple app store. But I mades me cherce (as Popeye sea) and that’s that.

  185. 185.

    hilts

    @Baud:

    Saw Begala a few months ago at an event with Steve Schmidt where Schmidt said he’d be voting for Hillary because Trump didn’t pass the Commander in Chief test.

  191. 191.

    joel hanes

    @rikyrah:

    [Arne] Duncan.
    Worst Cabinet choice of POTUS

    Tell it, sister.

    Obama finally figured out that Rahm had to go; I wish he’d figured that out about Arne Duncan.

  192. 192.

    dmsilev

    @Major Major Major Major: From the article:

    At Fordham, Mr. Trump commuted from his parents’ home in Queens and played squash, football and tennis. He remembered Fordham for its “good sports.”
    At Wharton, Mr. Trump began preparing in earnest for his career in real estate by buying and selling fixer-upper townhouses in Pennsylvania and driving home to New York on weekends to work for his father.

    During the Wharton years, he said, he had less time for sports but stayed physically active, playing pickup golf at public courses near campus, including Cobbs Creek. “They had a lot of hustlers at Cobbs Creek — a lot of real hustlers,” he said. “You learned a lot about life at Cobbs Creek.”

  195. 195.

    dmsilev

    And bless the NYT commentariat:

    The condition he had was connectionitis, a familial disease that exempts affluent young men from being drafted every time. But it doesn’t keep them from wanting to send other, less-connected young men off to war, however.

  196. 196.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    @Baud: LA Mormon temple.

    ETA: I’ll probably post the full set tomorrow, maybe(Windows 10 upgrade day is tomorrow, or tonight). The cemetery is really tiny in Westwood, but probably has more celebs per square foot than any other. The caption on Rodney Dangerfield’s tombstone is “there goes the neighborhood”.

  198. 198.

    Keith P.

    @dmsilev: Our friend Mr. Trump had to suck off a lot of golf hustlers as he worked his way into NY society. Yes, Donald has truly sacrificed in order to learns the ropes (and he had to choke on a lot of rope along the way)

  199. 199.

    Major Major Major Major

    All this talk of TCP/IP and Snowden makes me remember the time I was in the Hawaii airport the day that story broke, looking exactly like his file photo, with three laptops. Good time was had by all.

  200. 200.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    @Baud: I believe it was the first temple built outside of Utah. It was built in the early 50’s, I think.

    ETA: See my ETA in my original response, this is the first time I’ve laughed at a cemetery.

  201. 201.

    Miss Bianca

    @JMG: Oh, wow. Well…objectively speaking, I’d probably argue for Abbey Road being their “best” album – really, more innovative than Sgt. Pepper. And my favorites have slid around over the years, but lately…yeah, it’s pretty much a toss-up between Rubber Soul and Revolver, with one or the other getting the slight edge and i’ll suddenly have to listen to it over and over. Currently, it’s “Revolver”.

  203. 203.

    Gin & Tonic

    Somebody dug up this from Trump, in an interview with Eric Bolling of Fox in April of 2014.

    “Well, he’s [Putin] done an amazing job of taking the mantle, and he’s taken it away from the president and you look at what he’s doing. And so smart. When you see the riots in a country because they’re hurting the Russians, okay, ‘We’ll go and take it over.’ And he really goes step by step by step, and you have to give him a lot of credit.”

  206. 206.

    Miss Bianca

    @scav:

    That preening moldy tangelo is going to start speaking in tongues and handling snakes pretty soon. Choir outreach.

    Ok, now that one…I actually had opened my cider at this point, and you damn near got a spit take out of me. Well-done, you!

  209. 209.

    BR

    @shomi:

    Huh? A good campaign plans for everything, and executes that strategy calmly. That’s what I see Clinton doing. What’s wrong with noting it?

  210. 210.

    hilts

    @Baud:

    I was impressed with Schmidt’s candor and enjoyed the opportunity to hear him and Begala talk at length instead of the brief segments they get on the air.

  211. 211.

    Bill E Pilgrim

    @sigaba: Oh don’t misunderstand, he’s ruining it for them, is the point, but that doesn’t mean they’re that different. It’s the style of presentation. He says the things out loud. He’s more obnoxious, not more crazy.

  214. 214.

    BR

    @hilts:

    I remember him saying after the 2008 that Obama’s campaign was a wonder to watch, like what RFK’s campaign would have been.

  217. 217.

    Miss Bianca

    @?BillinGlendaleCA: I remember when I was quite young (13-14), I picked up my first book of rock criticism. I remember that the author (who generally had nothing but pretty glowing things to say about both the Beatles and Bob Dylan), referred to Abbey Road as kind, specifically in contrast to the White Album. I was hot and heavy into my first “falling in love with the Beatles” phase at that point, and it has always informed my opinion of that album. It is “kind” – generous, sunny, benign, a touch elegiac. (And now, I realize, that the White Album is my least favorite Beatles album – while there are individual songs that stand out, the work as a whole has always felt disjointed and angry, like “the Dark Album” to me, and I think that part of my reaction was shaped by that book).

  218. 218.

    hilts

    @BR:

    i hope the venue where I saw Begala and Schmidt will invite them back for a post mortem following Election Day.

  220. 220.

    cckids

    @Baud: I think Hillary will do just fine. If she gets the chance to debate the Crazy Yam.

    In fact, I think she’ll break him in half, then kick the shit out of both pieces. Please FSM, let it happen.

  221. 221.

    Mike E

    @Citizen Scientist: @JMG: The Fabs felt that certain albums could be grouped in 2’s, with Rubber Soul/Revolver and Sgt. Pepper/Magical Mystery Tour being the best examples…their leap in development during the making of RS was what John called, “The clever Beatles” period

  222. 222.

    Miss Bianca

    @danielx: Where in the Rockies are you? (CO girl is curious)

    ETA: And yes…it is quite divine up here. I’m at about 9000 feet myself.

  223. 223.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    @Miss Bianca: Basically the White Album is where they threw in the kitchen sink to satisfy their record contract(that’s why it’s their only double album). It’s got some really good music(While my Guitar Gently Weeps(BTW, Clapton played on that instead of Lennon)) and well(#9, #9, #9…).

  225. 225.

    Keith P.

    @cckids: She beat Obama a time or two, so she should do very well. This will be the first time that Trump can’t just insult people and spout a few slogans over and over again. I’m predicting a really weird contrast, as she should trip him up plenty with names and facts that he won’t know anything about, and all he’ll be able to do is recite from the same set of insults he’s been using on everyone else for month.
    My only worry is that he’ll claim that he won (there will be a few outlets can claim to have read that will say that regardless), and the press will treat it like they were so different you can’t grade it.

  226. 226.

    Central Planning

    I saw this bumper sticker today that said:

    Obama: Your (sic) Fired!
    Trump 2016!

    Unbelievable. Actually, it isn’t.

  227. 227.

    Miss Bianca

    @?BillinGlendaleCA: According to some article I read that talked about music teachers sharing the Beatles with their students: they said that there was literally no Beatles song the kids didn’t like, except for “Revolution No. 9”.

  235. 235.

    rikyrah

    Jason Karsh
    ‏@jkarsh Jason Karsh Retweeted Christopher Hayes
    Pence when the crowd boos the Khan family: “That’s what freedom sounds like

  242. 242.

    DissidentFish

    @scav: I swear I am having trouble remembering a time when Trump wasn’t talking. Does he ever shut up?

  243. 243.

    Miss Bianca

    @Ian: Same here – about Bennet and Romanoff. Fact is, I still wish they had done that. Bennet would have been a *much* better Sec. of Education than Duncan, and Romanoff would have been a fiery, populist Dem – I don’t think we’d be looking at such slender re-election margins as we seem to see for Bennett.

  246. 246.

    Miss Bianca

    @raven: That’s right up there with my favorite Monkees song ever – I remember when it came out – I was only about 3 or 4, but I loved it. I finally made the Vietnam connection years later, on my own, and I remember being surprised that the Monkees, who were always accused of being such fluffmeisters, had had a hit with such a dark-themed song. Of course, the tune makes it an irresistable mindworm.

    @Omnes Omnibus: “But it’s those vampires! They never go out of fashion! They’re so HOT right now!”

  248. 248.

    TheMightyTrowel

    Actually I really hate the Beatles and always have. I remember school music lessons with Beatles songs as painful and interminable.

    CONFLICT

    (currently most excited about Melbourne feminist post punk group Camp Cope, so I think I’m probably not the target Beatles audience)

  249. 249.

    Steve in the ATL

    @Mike E:

    And Your Bird Can Sing is my current ringtone…

    Great song that was covered well by Guadalcanal Diary

  251. 251.

    slag

    @sukabi: Thiel is just a low-level Bond villain. Typically dies in the first act. In this, he’s simply attempting to defy fate.

  252. 252.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @hilts:

    The debate format favors a dummy like Trump because of the ridiculous time restrictions.

    No. Hillary can devastate him with a glance or a laugh. I trust that her team is coming up with a “There you go again” type of line to drop on him. She can crush him in debates by deploying the strategies I just mentioned and then pivoting to a knowledgeable discussion of the issue at hand. She’s got this.

  254. 254.

    randy khan

    Has no one considered that the reason that Trump objects to the debate dates might be that he wants to watch the games? It’s a lot less work than debating.

  255. 255.

    Quinerly

    Romney’s campaign manager, Stuart Stevens, saying that the RNC should withdraw all support for Trump, repudiate him, and put Pence at the top of the ticket…that there is a “mechanism in place” to replace a candidate. Says what has happened with the Khan matter disqualifies Trump. On Lawrence O’Donnell tonight.

  262. 262.

    Steve in the ATL

    @Quinerly:

    Says what has happened with the Khan matter disqualifies Trump.

    Nice that he said that, the Khan matter is number 1,374 (est.) of things that disqualify Trump.

  263. 263.

    Miss Bianca

    @Omnes Omnibus: It’s hard to sparkle when you’re bathed in blood…that’s how you knew those Cullens were total poseurs.

    @Quinerly: Oh, boy…*now* the shit’s going to hit the fan. As if it hadn’t already, right?

  264. 264.

    Schlemazel

    @schrodinger’s cat:
    I actually like it & it led me to buy several albums of traditional Indian music. I’m not always in the mood for it but when I am I find it very relaxing. Its almost like chanting in the way it can hypnotize me and empty my mind.

  265. 265.

    hilts

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I’m confident that Hillary will acquit herself well in the debates, although a longer response time for questions would more clearly demonstrate the gap between Hillary’s knowledge of the issues and Trump’s vast ignorance of the issues.

  266. 266.

    J R in WV

    These ratfuquers who attacked Max Cleland and now Tammy Duckworth are not fit to clean their shoes. Oh, Wait! That’s right… neither of them have feet, having been blown up fighting for our nation!!!

    I’m proud to have contributed to Ms (Former Captain) Duckworth’s campaigns in the past. Just being a soldier, and fighting, with guns and aircraft and all, isn’t really enough to be a good politician. You have to care about people, and want to help both plain old folks and move the nation forward, or your town if you’re on town council, etc.

    So many Republicans evidently only give a rat’s ass about their own pride, and re-election, and political power. And money.

  268. 268.

    Miss Bianca

    @J R in WV:

    So many Republicans evidently only give a rat’s ass about their own pride, and re-election, and political power. And money.

    Well, it’s worked for them so far.

  269. 269.

    schrodinger's cat

    @Schlemazel: Albela Sajan by Rashid Khan in the morning raga, Ahir Bhairav.

    Here is anotherversion of the same song from Bajirao Mastani.

    Rashid Khan’s version has a much slower buildup than the movie version.

    Short translation
    My beloved is coming
    I am happy
    I am sprucing up
    Singing
    Decorating the yard and house
    And awaiting his arrival

  271. 271.

    reality-based (the original, not the troll)

    @dmsilev:

    well, the front page of the NY times right now is a thing of beauty:

    top story: trumps 5 deferments AKA the mysterious disappearing bone spurs

    2nd story: Warren Buffet smashing him to bits/

    3rd story: Trump calls for warmer relations with Putin

    somebody more competent than me has to put up a screen grab

  273. 273.

    Quinerly

    @Steve in the ATL:
    I know what you mean. But this is the first Republican I’ve heard to say that there is some sort of procedure to remove and replace him. I have seen a lot of speculation here on who the replacement would be if he is removed/stepped aside. I had figured it would be Pence. Stevens just made that pretty clear. Pence then would pick his running mate.

  274. 274.

    hilts

    @?BillinGlendaleCA:

    Unfortunately, Trump will get away with not releasing any income tax returns but I don’t see how he can get away with ducking debates. It would go against his tough guy brand.

  278. 278.

    hilts

    @Quinerly:

    Would be great to see another more prominent Republican have the guts to second Stevens, but I’m not holding my breath.

  279. 279.

    hovercraft

    @hilts:
    With only two people on the stage the moderators and the other candidate can follow up and make the other candidate answer the question. Hillary can use her answer to point out that he is full of shit, or hasn’t answered the question. The contrast between a candidate giving an actual answer (a politicians version of a real answer, ie answering the question they wanted asked) and a candidate repeating the same slogans endlessly will be stark. If Trump was a normal person he could go the Rubio route and memorize rote answers, but his unwillingness to actually do any work and his ADD will not let him. (No disrespect to people with real ADD).

  280. 280.

    hilts

    @?BillinGlendaleCA:

    In my opinion, the metric for inclusion of third party candidates in presidential debates is totally fucked up. Instead of looking at poll ratings, 3rd parties should be required to hold a certain number of seats in both chambers of Congress and state legislatures in order to take part in these presidential debates.

  281. 281.

    hilts

    @hovercraft:

    I’m keeping my fingers crossed that Trump will have several Ralph Kramden “humina, humina, humina” moments in these debates.

  282. 282.

    SFAW

    @TheMightyTrowel:

    Actually I really hate the Beatles and always have.

    Goddamn kiwis and their so-called “music.”

    ETA: Do you also strangle poor little kittens when you’re not digging up their bones?

  283. 283.

    hovercraft

    @reality-based (the original, not the troll):
    That type of coverage is probably why he is mulling over whether to pull the Times press credentials like he did with the Wa Post’s, he says they have been behaving better since he did that. Didn’t he attack Mr. Khan for not respecting his First amendment rights just yesterday? Irony, what is that.

  284. 284.

    Quinerly

    @hilts:
    What I would settle for..now that it has been said by a rather prominent Republican…is the polling operations to start polling Republican voters as to whether they want Trump replaced with Pence. And then the press start asking Pence about the polls

  285. 285.

    SFAW

    By the time teh debates start, the MSM will have fallen in love with Deadbeat Donnie again, and any debate where he doesn’t shit/shoot himself on-stage will be considered a “victory” for him, Because Hillary is so practiced at debating, and she’ll use her feminine wiles (and Satan worship) to gain an unfair advantage on poor Deadbeat Donnie.

    I wish I were joking, but we saw the same shit with Bush/Gore in 2000.

  287. 287.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @SFAW: Jebus. My guess is that RMT’s hatred of the Beatles is generational, but to the extent that TMT is antipodal, iit is Aussie not Kiwi.

  290. 290.

    TheMightyTrowel

    @SFAW: That’s a triply wrong ethnic slur there, sir. I’m an american in australia, kiwis are from new zealand. Also i cuddle kitties I don’t strangle them. :-P

  291. 291.

    hilts

    @Quinerly:

    I agree with your polling idea, but I’d also like to see some retired senators like Richard Lugar, Olympia Snowe, John Danforth, or Alan Simpson publicly come out against Trump.

  292. 292.

    Regine Touchon

    @D58826: lord Lawrence interviewed her. What great courage after the trumpeters at first were clapping and as soon as she mentioned the Khan’s son name they turned on her. Horrible horrible horrible. She went on to say she was approached by some afterwards and thanked her for her sacrifice. Trying to atone for their support of Trump.

  293. 293.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @SFAW: Don’t make me talk rugby – where, once the USA is eliminated, I support France (because style and Jean Pierre Rives).

  294. 294.

    SFAW

    @TheMightyTrowel:

    I’m an american in australia, kiwis are from new zealand.

    Yes, I know.

    Also i cuddle kitties I don’t strangle them. :-P

    Pictures, or it didn’t happen.

  295. 295.

    hilts

    @SFAW:

    The bar will be criminally low for Trump in these debates, but maybe he’ll surprise us by having a panic attack on stage and speaking even weirder word salad than Palin and his softer supporters will realize he’s a know nothing dumb ass.

  298. 298.

    SFAW

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Don’t make me talk rugby

    “Make you”? Since when do you need an excuse to talk about the Packers rugby? That’s like me and the Mets, or lacrosse.

  300. 300.

    SFAW

    @hilts:

    The bar will be criminally low for Trump in these debates, but maybe he’ll surprise us by having a panic attack on stage and speaking even weirder word salad than Palin and his softer supporters will realize he’s a know nothing dumb ass.

    And the MSM will find seven words — not necessarily spoken together by Deadbeat Donnie — that they can string together to show that he “exceeded expectations.” They’ll also say that Hillary “underperformed.”

    As I said: think Bush/Gore debates in 2000.

  301. 301.

    Quinerly

    @hilts:
    I’d love to see Pence’s reaction if the polls turned to his favor in such a scenario while Trump was still at the top of the ticket ..and of course, Trump’s comeback.

  307. 307.

    Miss Bianca

    @Omnes Omnibus: Decimating is SO not *my* linguistic obsession, dude. You’re thinking of someone else.

    Now, just don’t get me started on the perfidy of “townhome” v. “townhouse”, however…

  308. 308.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @TheMightyTrowel: I liked them. Like I say, reminiscent of Sleater-Kinney, but, to me, that is not a bad thing.

    As far as the Beatles go, consider them as a reaction and response to what went before. Music history is a process. Looking at them that way, you may be more sympathetic. Beatles worship qua Beatles worship is daft. But they influenced people – even those who rejected them.

  311. 311.

    TheMightyTrowel

    @Omnes Omnibus: my research area is innovation studies in an archaeological/historical context – believe me when I tell you there is no new thing under the sun, revolutions are a lie and every major innovation that appears is just the shiny tip of an iceberg of pre-existing ideas, attempts, failures and partial successes :-) In this neither the Beatles nor Camp Cope are different from anything else.

  314. 314.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @TheMightyTrowel: I am a lawyer. Why would I be shocked or bothered by the nothing new under the sun proposition? Yet, unlike human nature, music and other art forms move forward.

  315. 315.

    Miss Bianca

    @TheMightyTrowel: It may be true that there is nothing new under the sun, but occasionally some artist, soldier, architect, someone takes a whole heap of old stuff and puts it together in such a compelling way, it might as well be new. The Beatles are such artists for some. YMMV.

  316. 316.

    Dmbeaster

    @Baud: Mormon Temple in LA is one of tne smaller ones in appearance, but it has a lot of square footage.

  318. 318.

    Ian

    @Miss Bianca:
    I preffered him policy-wise, but his inability to unseat Coffman (R-6) makes me wonder about him polling any better. Now district 6 is redish, but so was 7 before Perlmutter kicked the shit out of the Jefferson county GOP.

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