No joke. Reason Trump primary campaign was better run was b/c he had steady wins to boost himself. Without that hit, he goes off the rails.
— Sarah Kendzior (@sarahkendzior) July 31, 2016
I’m the last person to make light of the horrors of addiction, but I think this is a really sound analogy. Trump is an attention junkie, and the GOP ‘leadership’ is now split between his enablers and his co-dependents. The enablers want to keep the pipeline open to his angry voters and the media attention he garners; the co-dependents are wringing their hands about the shame of it all, but they can’t muster the guts or the backbone to stand up to the bullying and cut him off…
And I feel like I should give y’all a break from the Trumpdolyte downpour, but by mid-morning tomorrow, there will be another wave of Trumptastery to confront!
.
JUST IN: RNC chairman: We'll support Trump on debate schedule protest https://t.co/DRLE0vqKPy pic.twitter.com/SO1ckkNWRH
— The Hill (@thehill) July 31, 2016
RNC chairman: I'll help dig the party's grave. https://t.co/cM4uH0IQp2
— Bob Schooley (@Rschooley) July 31, 2016
A religious test for entering our country is not reflective of America's fundamental values. I reject it. pic.twitter.com/DdsYj2XoLS
— Paul Ryan (@SpeakerRyan) July 31, 2016
So just to be clear, you’re supporting a presidential candidate who stands against America’s fundamental values? @SpeakerRyan
— Charles Johnson (@Green_Footballs) July 31, 2016
One of the least cute things about 2016 is Paul Ryan trying so hard to wash his hands of moral responsibility for Trump while backing him.
— Josh Barro (@jbarro) August 1, 2016
They're honestly hoping that when a clinically unstable demagogue gets power, he'll sign some of their bills. https://t.co/NWXvdO4nrV
— Jon Favreau (@jonfavs) August 1, 2016
Major Major Major Major
Yesterday, I honest to god literally put a shortcut in my phone so when I type “Trump!!” it corrects to “Did you see what Donald Trump did??”
Fair Economist
RNC PR BS doesn’t want Trump to debate Hillary either. He’s thinking of his downticket races. Process arguments aren’t going to hurt his turnout.
Villago Delenda Est
The problem here is for the Rethugs that failure to engage Hillary in a debate will only cause the twitterverse to go nuts. “Can’t debate with a GIRL, can you, Donald?” “Are you afraid of the beeyoch?” “Got no scrote?”
sukabi
Rinse Pubis ain’t gonna get the stank off him from this. Of course he knows that drumpf couldn’t possibly come out of a 1 on 1 debate with Clinton looking competent, let alone presidential.
Wonder how far down the rabbit hole he’s going to travel with drumpf and his merry men.
sigaba
This is when Hillary demands 5 debates, one on one only. (Sortof joking.)
I really hope she doesn’t give an inch on any of his BS. Her only response should be: “See you September 26th.”
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I’ll add a tweet, not original, I think MY has made this point before, but it sums up the Party of Trump and Ryan:
MikeBoyScout
@Villago Delenda Est: spot on, but you omitted tiny hand jokes.
MarilyD SOregon
Had a question at the almost dead thread below. My sister, son and DIL were Bernie people. My kids are now going with Hillary, but my sister is staying in the Hillary hate camp. It has something to do with Victoria Nuland at the State Dept., and she’s sure Hillary will start a new Cold War with Russia. My sister is not stupid, she used to work for the State Dept. during the Nixon years, and even went with Shirley Temple Black as an admin aide on her mission to Russia…..anybody know??
?BillinGlendaleCA
I will reiterate what I’ve said before, THERE WILL BE NO DEBATES. I’m partial to Josh Marshall’s(and my) theory of how he’ll get out of them(try to force Dr. Stein and Gov Johnson into the debates), but any ol’ one’ll work.
Also as I’ve mentioned, I’m reading ‘Before the Storm’ right now. I’ve read the Perlstein books in reverse order(from what I remember really well to what I don’t remember). Barry Goldwater, circa 1964, reminds me of Trump, a lot. The reasons that his supports support him reads like the Frum piece referenced in the last thread. Even the “Not-Goldwater” efforts were like the “Never-Trump” efforts of today(with similar results). I hope the results in the general election are also similar.
Matt McIrvin
He probably will sign their bills, most of the time, because he doesn’t give a shit about any of that.
Damien
Not hard to believe the Cowardly Ryan would ride Trump to the ground like Slim Pickens. I really think the message of our time is that the Republican Party is the part of failure and timidity, and the last time America took its strength and boldness seriously, we insured 20 million people.
How about we try not letting the children drive the car?
nutella
@MarilyD SOregon:
I dunno. Wikipedia says there’s a Benghazi connection and also that she was rude about the EU in a leaked phone call.
hellslittlestangel
Paul Ryan: My mother-in-law is the meanest, most miserable, sweetest little old lady who ever lived.
Matt McIrvin
@MarilyD SOregon: Sounds like the material out of RT that BiP was pushing when he was here: Ukraine is run by Nazis, US is on the side of the Nazis, Putin saved Crimea from them, etc. I remember him ranting about Nuland at some point.
Mandalay
So the heat is on Mike Pence to rebuke Trump for his comments about the Khans. Not one to shirk his duty, I-Like-Mike was up to the tricky task, with this searing tweet: Great to stop in for a quick haircut at @redsbarbershop in Indianapolis!
The first reply was pretty good:
The second reply was brutal: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cot5DRAUkAAIZmd.jpg
Soylent Green
@Fair Economist: Nope. They will believe what they’re told. It’s unfair, it’s rigged, etc. If he wants out, they will back him up.
sloan
“but they can’t muster the guts or the backbone to stand up to the bullying and cut him off”
Yeah, this.
Like, where the hell are the Republicans? Anyone notice how they’ve vanished off the face of the earth lately?
I don’t take the whole “death of the GOP” stuff seriously sometimes. But lately I don’t know. I mean, WTF.
It’s a presidential election and they’re AWOL. For anyone who remembers the Bush era this must be disorienting. The loyal Bushie Republicans were ON MESSAGE. WTF.
MisterForkbeard
@Fair Economist: This is frankly amazing. The DNC and the RNC negotiated that date with the Debate Commission.
It’s literally something the RNC arranged and agreed to and is now crying ‘conspiracy!’ over. Fucking mindblowing.
MarilyD SOregon
@nutella: @Matt McIrvin: Thanks! I Googled her at my sister request, but didn’t know enough about those sources to trust who was writing it. Like I said, my sister is not stupid, in fact she’s
very intelligent, but she does on occasion get caught up in the theory of the day. When everything was causing cancer, I joked with her about reading that toilet paper causes anal cancer…she thought I was serious!!
Matt McIrvin
@sloan: Trump got in their base and beat all their d00dz and now their only hope of winning is to defend the indefensible. They can’t be on message because Trump is never on message and they’re stuck with him.
Turgidson
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Yeah, the Zombie-Eyed Granny Starver’s only requirement in a GOP president is being capable of operating a pen long enough to sign his horrendous Medicare killing “budgets.” And hopefully nominate SCOTUS judges suggested to him by the Heritage Foundation.
Ryan is only pained by Trump to the extent that he thought the GOP was this close to grabbing power of all three branches, and Trump is going to blow it for him before he could kill Medicare.
I’m glad Ryan’s reputation is finally, FINALLY taking the beating it’s deserved for at least six years now. Better late than never. But even now, he’s getting way too much undeserved credit for being something other than a cruel piece of shit.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@efgoldman: I agree, Barry did have political experience and that’s a big difference between him and Trump. But a great deal of the rhetoric of the campaign is really similar. I think Perlstein did also mention the idea that JFK and Goldwater were talking about traveling and debating, but that ended on November 22, 1963. After that LBJ(an obligatory “fuck LBJ” for raven) wasn’t on board and the assassination changed Goldwater as well and his view of the press(CBS in particular).
Turgidson
@efgoldman:
Plus, to give you an idea how fucking batshit insane the GOP has gone, he was considered a sensible elder statesman, and to the left of the party on some issues, by the time he left office.
Tom Q
@efgoldman: Allegedly JFK and Goldwater enjoyed one another’s company quite a bit. Of course this was back in that era when politics stopped at the stroke of cocktail hour.
Goldwater was clearly a cut above Trump in many departments, but they drew very much the same sort of lunatic supporters.
Fair Economist
The Nuland business is just bizarre. Somebody (Russia? I forget) released a tape of her saying somebody would be a good Prime Minister. This supposedly proves she was running Ukraine. Wish that worked for me!
Not that it would be a bad thing if she did help get rid of Yanukovych.
dogwood
@Matt McIrvin:
The republicans don’t want Trump on the debate stage. And Trump doesn’t want to go up against Clinton. So I’m starting to lean toward the side that says there won’t be any debates. I don’t think it will hurt Trump and the Republicans either. Trump, and republicans in general, are not held to any standard by the media.
Robin G.
I honestly think Reince et. al. have descended into true Peter Pan territory at this point. In what possible world do they think they’ll be able to control Trump once he’s in power? Do they think he’ll really sign their bills? Appoint their guys to the Supreme Court? He changes his mind on a whim. There’s a fair-to-middling chance he’d try to fill Scalia’s seat with that idiot son of his. They can put forward Paul Ryan’s wet dream budget and Trump will “walk” over and over, not because of policy, but to dominate Ryan and McConnell on the public stage. And if anyone tries to slap him down via law or court order, he’ll just ignore it and do what he likes. The man is a walking constitutional crisis.
The GOP leadership will get nothing out of this “man”. Absolutely nothing. But keep clapping, motherfuckers.
Major Major Major Major
Omnes sure gets grumpy sometimes.
EconWatcher
@nutella:
Nuland is a loose cannon, roundly hated here in Europe, where she’s supposed to be consolidating alliances. She’s a straight-up neocon, so I don’t know why the Bill Clinton and Obama Administrations have given her such high-profile spots. But as a rationale for Hillary hate, Nuland seems a little–I don’t know–inside baseball.
sigaba
@Turgidson: This only hurts his rep among elite press and they’ll surely forget about all of this soon enough. Ryan is already widely despised by Republicans for not taking the House hostage at gunpoint, destroying Obamacare and passing a Balanced Budget Amendment.
Republicans nationally plowed money into his primary challenger’s campaign when he started coming down on Trump and he acquiesced when it was clear it wasn’t doing any good, at this point he’s just trying to save his phony-baloney job. What this really establishes for me, for Ryan at least, is his pathetic careerism, which is something I didn’t necessarily expect or considered established, but here we are. And of course the press will forget about that, because most of the people in the national political press are even worse careerists than Ryan.
Edit- in fact this might explain a lot of my problem with political press. Most politicians screw up because they’re shameless careerists and will do anything to keep their job and stay elected. And political reporters are incapable of properly reporting this, because they may not actually understand that careerism is a bad thing.
sloan
@Matt McIrvin: I couldn’t agree more. I’m almost embarrassed for them but the hell with them.
This is what we wanted, right?
The GOP exposes themselves as racist ignorant shits. And we cruise to victory. But if we don’t win. Jesus.
All Republicans who don’t repudiate Trump NOW must be branded with the Scarlet Letter for life.
T T T T T
jl
Last two times I heard clips of Reince Priebus (could not get across room in time to turn it off, in order that I didn’t have to endure his sad ass), he sounded like a frat rat after a horrible party, swollen from drinking vats of flat stale beer and ready to hurl.
Major Major Major Major
@EconWatcher:
You know, there’s a lot of that on the left and on the right. It’s weird. Not just with Nuland specifically, but particular people just seem to get stuck in folks’ craws. Like Valerie Jarrett.
Mnemosyne
So I guess this is my question: if Trump says he won’t show up at the debates and Hillary says she will, does the news media put their thumb on the scale and cancel the debate, or do they let Hillary show up and get an hour of free airtime?
Because that’s my fear: that the news media will roll over and cancel altogether if Trump says he won’t show.
SFAW
In a rational world, the typical response to Trump’s attempting to duck out on the debates (and his “NFL is soooooo important” bullshit) would be: this is the same as it’s always been.
However, in Deadbeat Donnie world, the proper response is something like: “What is Donald afraid of? He talks a great game, but when it comes time to do the work, he says something about ‘Mean Girls!’ and runs away. And this is the guy who says he’ll be tough with our adversaries? Maybe Hillary should ask a 10-year-old to debate for her, so that Donald doesn’t get too scared. We can see why Hillary would scare Donald, because he’s only 7 inches taller and 100 pounds heavier than she is, and he says that’s not fair to him.”
Fucking candy-ass, and should be treated like one. (And, yes, I know that his own PR says that he weighs 198 lb. If Deadbeat Donnie weighs 198, then LeBron weighs 180.)
patroclus
Well, JFK and Goldwater were friends and, during a late night drinking session, they mused about having joint appearances if Goldwater won the nomination, but there is no way in frickin hell that RFK, old Joe, Sorenson and the others would ever have let an incumbent JFK cede the power of incumbency like that. And JFK was a very cool and calculating pol and he wasn’t that stupid either. The only guy that ever believed that to be possible was Goldwater and he only publicized it after JFK’s assassination. Goldwater was a frightening character because he actually believed what he said – and if he had been elected, America would be far different with no Voting Rights Act, no environmental laws, no Medicare, no Medicaid, no federal education laws and none of the Great Society programs. And the late 60’s would have been far more violent than they were. And he might well have used nuclear weapons on someone. Trump’s actual positions, to the extent that he has any, are nowhere near as whacko as Goldwater’s, and he’ll get far more votes and a greater percentage than 40% as well.
NotMax
@BillinGlendaleCA
There will be debates. If it comes down to HRC facing an unoccupied lectern, there will be debates.
Not so much Goldwater ’64 (a smidge, primarily superficial though) as Wallace ’68 (the full playbook, unabridged and unabashed).
EconWatcher
@efgoldman:
Debating Trump will present its own peculiar challenges. Remember the first debate between Obama and Romney? Obama was flummoxed because Romney simply denied all of the prior statements he’d made and positions he’d taken and brazenly made shit up. That’s not so easy to respond to in a spontaneous situation, although Obama made adjustments for it in later debates. Now just take that challenge and multiple it by about a kajillion for debating Trump.
sigaba
@Mnemosyne: It all depends on Hillary’s response, everyone else will have a spine if she does. If she signals it’s up for negotiation that’s the tack everyone will take and he’ll just walk away, and the press will report that Hillary was too much of a bitch to cut poor Donny any slack. If she signals that she has no interest in making any changes Trump will be the moving party and will be forced to justify his position.
sukabi
@efgoldman: I know, personal responsibility is for “those people”….just wondering if RP will follow all the way to Moscow.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Turgidson:
That’s the really insane bit of this. The President has to do so much more.
Mnemosyne
@NotMax:
Given the extent to which Donnie has been getting a free pass from the MSM, I’m a little skeptical. I actually could see CNN and/or MSNBC canceling their debate if Donnie says he won’t show up.
ruemara
@MarilyD SOregon: Ask her for her sources on whatever she says. If it’s RT, remind her that it’s not RT, it’s RUSSIA TODAY, how unbiased does she think they will be? The Nation has that problem re: Russia. And far too many liberals believe things off of opinion sites. USUNCUT seems to be the Bernie beloved of choice. If it doesn’t state what happened in boring, factual language, you’re reading an opinion designed to sway you in a direction. If you refuse to be swayed, you can be free of hating people you don’t know.
Major Major Major Major
@sigaba: Hmm, interesting. My preferred move would be Hillary saying “any time, anywhere”, and putting the onus on him.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@EconWatcher:
Well worth remembering Obama had better things to do before that debate than study the zen of Romney, unlike Clinton now. But Trump is always over the place and it’s been shown that all you need to do is get Trump ranting and he shots himself in his own foot and can’t stop.
If I were Trump’s handlers I would be terrified of putting Mr Easily Provoked next to Mrs Patronizing Smile on the same stage. Trump is most likely going to look like a small boy throwing a temper tantrum at his mother during any debate.
Mnemosyne
@efgoldman:
I don’t think it was totally unreasonable to expect a career politician like Romney to act like a normal politician, so I’m not surprised that Obama was unprepared for him to start a Gish Gallop.
Trump is already a known quantity, so I’m fully expecting Hillary to do her debate prep based on that. The likelihood of him suddenly bringing out a calm, rational debating persona is quite small, like his hands.
But I do still have a fear that at least one of the networks will cancel the debate if Donnie refuses to show up because it would be “unfair” or some bullshit like that.
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne: Keep in mind that the networks are vain creatures too. Donny canceling would bruise their egos, so having Hillary show up and debate an empty podium could be their way of sticking it to him.
sigaba
@Major Major Major Major: Nah but then he’ll just say “Anytime you want as long as Jill Stein is invited.” You don’t want to give him an inch to rewrite the rules because then the rules become he-said/she-said. If you turn the debate terms into a Both Sides then the press will report it as a Both Sides.
Mnemosyne
@Major Major Major Major:
Jeff Zucker, the head of CNN, is the guy who hired Donnie for “The Apprentice” back when Zucker was the head of NBC. So, yeah, I don’t think it’s irrational to think that CNN might decide it’s more important to prop up Trump than to protect the network’s ego.
Major Major Major Major
@sigaba: That’s a very good point.
ETA:
@Mnemosyne: The debates aren’t a network thing though. What would it look like if CNN was the only one saying no? Could the other networks say “look, see how shitty CNN is?” Or would they go along?
BR
I’m watching Kaine from their Youngstown event — he did great. His conversational style is excellent.
Mnemosyne
@sigaba:
Yep. IMO Clinton is better off saying, These are the previously agreed-upon rules, and we ain’t changing them.
I think people have been slightly misled because of her campaign’s conciliatory stance towards Bernie, but she needs Bernie’s voters, so she needs to not look like an asshole in her dealings with him. She has no such need to be nice to Trump.
MarilyD SOregon
@ruemara: I just Googled Victoria and could see who/what she was reading. They looked like some pretty “iffy” sources, so I chalked it up to her voracious reading habits, and believing what she is reading without getting the fuller picture. Since we live in Oregon, I’m not worried about which way we will go, but it bothers me because she’s really depressed about it. She doesn’t have any children to worry about, thankfully, so this is just bringing her down. I see her next weekend, and I think we have come to the point in agreeing not to talk politics from here on out.
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne: Refusing to allow third-party candidates on stage would make her look bad to those who felt the Bern and are now reluctantly supporting her. I don’t know how many of those there are, but it would. And you know Trump/”the media” would play up the “what is she afraid of?” angle. (Yes, I know that it’s not “refusing to allow third-party candidates on stage” because they’ve already agreed on the rules.)
Mnemosyne
@Major Major Major Major:
IIRC, the different cable networks each host them and provide the moderators. My fear is that the networks all stick together and if CNN backs out, they all back out.
@BR:
The more I see of Kaine, the more I like him. It was a good sign at the DNC that his speech got better as he went along and won the crowd over. Since we went with a white guy, I think Hillary picked the best possible white guy for this year. People who know the Spanish-language mediascape are already looking forward to his appearances there.
sigaba
@Mnemosyne: If I was a slightly edgier candidate my frank response to this jockeying would be “If you feel you are being treated unfairly do not expect any affordance from me. It is not my job to be fair to you, and it is not anyone’s job to be fair to the President of the United States.”
As Marshall pointed out a few months ago, it’s just his characteristic behavior to make you think you have a deal, and then turn into a shithead and scream and holler when the bill comes due, and when you make a counteroffer he know’s he’s won, because you’ve abandoned your claim, and now his whining and screaming is in the drivers’ seat.
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne: The moderators are (usually) drawn from the ranks of the networks, but the CPD picks them. They’re aired by like everybody, including local stations I think.
sigaba
@Major Major Major Major: 3rd party candidates are welcome as long as they meet the 15% polling threshold as established in the debate commission rules.
Mnemosyne
@Major Major Major Major:
If she gives Trump an inch, he’ll take a mile. And I think her campaign knows that. So, if they’re as smart as they’ve shown themselves to be so far, they’ll insist on sticking to the rules.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym
@Major Major Major Major: It’d be great if the moderator would still ask questions of the empty podium, and give it the allotted amount of time to answer. Dead air every time, to emphasize that Trump didn’t show.
Then: “Madame Secretary, would you care to respond to that comment?”
sigaba
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym: I’ve had a journalist explain to me that this very thing is called an “empty chair interview” and is considered unethical for some reason. :)
Villago Delenda Est
@efgoldman: Yes, yet another reason for my nym.
Mnemosyne
@Major Major Major Major:
And if CNN refuses to let their moderators participate in what is obviously unfair to one of the candidates?
Like I said, I feel pretty confident that Hillary will show up no matter what, so my fear has more to do with what additional Trump-coddling the MSM is willing to do in order to keep their horserace narrative.
Steeplejack
@MarilyD SOregon:
I don’t know exactly what question you’re asking—maybe “Is Clinton going to restart the Cold War with Russia?”—but I think the answer is that your sister is a dyed-in-the-wool, can’t-let-it-go Republican.
Clinton was secretary of state longer than Henry “Super Genius” Kissinger was, so I think her grasp of global geopolitical realities will stand her in good stead as president.
And think about the implied alternative—that somehow we would be safer with President Donald Trump?!
Villago Delenda Est
@sigaba: They seemed to love it when Clint Eastwood did it.
Jeremy Friesner
@EconWatcher: On the plus side, Hillary (and her debate prep team) are fully aware of what Trump is likely to do, and they have plenty of time to prepare for all kinds of Chewbacca defense.
piratedan
@MisterForkbeard: they’re simply repeating the same shit that took place when the sequester cuts started to hit home… they agreed to the budget deal and then sought to shut down the government rather than honor their agreements. Government by tantrum.
sigaba
@Villago Delenda Est: Clint Eastwood’s not a reporter, and I remember the response at the time being widespread bewilderment and obloquy.
Major Major Major Major
@sigaba: Republicans loved it though.
That was a weird convention. Nothing compared to 2016… though you could sort of see the beginning of the descent into what happened this year.
piratedan
@MarilyD SOregon: well, if she’s worried about a resumption of the Cold War (given how Putin has behaved, who knows, it may even be warranted) I would ask her to triangulate what she thinks a Trump foreign policy might be towards Russia would be considering he’s asked them to hack the DNC for him.
MarilyD SOregon
@Steeplejack: No, she is as blue as they come! I think she’s one of those people who are so far to the left, she’s meeting up at the red side and doesn’t know/see it yet. She’s very worried about the planet burning up, and been very anti-nuclear plants from the get-go. As I said, thankfully she doesn’t have any children to worry about, and when our mother dies (she’s 96), she will probably pick up stakes and move to Costa Rica.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Mnemosyne: Yup, THERE WILL BE NO DEBATES. Trump won’t show, the networks will cancel.
Major Major Major Major
@?BillinGlendaleCA: The Mountain Goats – There Will Be No Divorce
Lovely song.
Seriously, though, the CPD would be incredibly pissed if they tried to cancel. They’d still hold them. Maybe we’d have to watch Hillary talking to a chair on Periscope, but they’d have the debates.
magurakurin
@MarilyD SOregon: It sounds like she has issues that are deeper than politics.
MillieNeon
@Mnemosyne: Maybe she could debate an empty chair.
MarilyD SOregon
@magurakurin: Oh, she’s always been “different”, but not in a bad way. Doesn’t trust men, never married, but meets/makes friends with people easier than I do, and I’m supposedly the outgoing one.
piratedan
@MarilyD SOregon: maybe this link will help
pseudonymous in nc
The Ryan approach (shared by other GOP leaders) is now “Endorse the sinner, hate the sin. And that sin. And those sins. And the other sin. And whatever sin he sins tomorrow.”
In the meantime, if anybody in cablenews dares bring up Roger Stone and his bastard friends flinging shit at the wall in relation to the Khans, they need to lose their jobs.
rachel
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym: If Johnson meets the 15% threshold, there won’t be any need for that. Plus I bet if someone tells the audience, “Unfortunately, Mr Trump was more concerned about football than proving himself ready to lead this nation than either of the candidates here,” I bet that will provoke a tantrum. ^_^
sunny raines
I’m smelling a twofer in the wind: trump lighting up like the Hindenburg and ryan being among the wreckage that crumbles to the ground from being too close to the beast when it pops.
Amir Khalid
This is not the primary, where Trump was up against 16 feeble Republican midgets. He could treat them with contempt and still look more like a winner than any of them. As we’ve seen this past week, it’s very different with non-Republicans If he doesn’t turn up for the debates, Hilary’s surrogates — especially the one he calls Pocahontas, who is so good at needling him — will be calling him a coward all the way to Election Day. I don’t think his pride can take that.
Feudalism Now!
I believe Trump will try and get out of the debates, but the RNC negotiated these terms. Can they afford to burn this bridge? It will not be forgotten in 4 years. I also think there will be a full court press to make August, ‘Trump the Coward” month. He won’t be able to gin up the poutrage to cancel the debates. He will be attacked from so many angles, his tweets will smoke.
Momus
If Trump doesn’t show up, why don’t the Democrats have the adult film star who plays him in the porn parody of “Celebrity Apprentice” sub for him?
socraticsilence
@EconWatcher:
In fairness he didn’t mention his Sister was career State Department, which would make it less “inside baseball” and more “this is an odious person who works for the same people I do, why god, why is Hillary supporting her”
Steeplejack
@MarilyD SOregon:
Then it sounds to me like she’s got a case of Chicken Little-itis (“The sky is falling!”) with a side of “Democrats in disarray.”
Give her a paper bag to breathe into and remind her that the Republicans are eating their own entrails.
Steeplejack
@piratedan:
Dunno how you managed to hide your link in the reply button, but well played!
Here it is: “Election 2016: Foreign Policy Showdown.”
Amir Khalid
@Momus:
It would be kind of embarrassing if that guy were to outperform the real Trump in the debate.
Steeplejack
@Momus:
Nobody here knows anything about that. Ahem.
Steeplejack
@Amir Khalid:
Phrasing!
Amir Khalid
@Steeplejack:
I’ll rephrase:
It would be kind of embarrassing if that guy were more of a master debater than the real Trump.
Keith G
I imagine that Trump’s decision on debating will hinge on what the polls are saying about the status of the race when the decision needs to be made.
Steeplejack
@Amir Khalid:
Hey, phrasing, damn it!
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
People gather at the grave of Muslim soldier
Kay
I watched Kaine’s speech on CSPAN yesterday. They were in Columbus. Really a long wind up to introducing Clinton more than a speech but he’s good. He’s funny. He has a sense of humor and it comes thru. He treats Donald Trump like Trump landed from another planet- very much “all the normal people believe THIS versus this bizarre, unhinged celebrity who said THIS” – it’s effective. It’s isolating, cuts Trump out of the group of acceptable norms of behavior.
That’s the OTHER way to deal with a bully. There’s individual leaders standing up to the bully (like Clinton and Khan are doing)- they go first- and then there’s isolating the bully- joining with a crowd against the bully- bringing the whole crowd’s social sanction to bear on the bully. Kaine is taking the second route. That’s really what we’re watching with these polls- we’re waiting for the majority to flip against the bully. That’s what will cause Trump to break down- he doesn’t care if Clinton or Khan approve of him but he cares a lot if he’s broadly unpopular.
It’s way too late for Republicans to lead on it. They’re actually in the worse category of people- they’re not leading against the bully or joining the initial crowd against him. They’re the people who wait for the crowd to show it’s okay to go along. Paul Ryan has completely failed both tests. He’s not even an ordinarily courageous person. If he goes at all he’ll go LAST, only after Trump has alienated the crowd sufficiently to make it safe.
NorthLeft12
@efgoldman:
This.^^^ A hundred times, this^^^! The sycophantic, amoral, d–bags that report on US politics [and that includes the foreign press] continue to give him a pass because in the team sport that the US political system has become, you must support the team….country be damned.
rikyrah
@Mnemosyne:
Hillary is Tracy Flick all grown up. She knows her shyt cold. I don’t care if Ferret Head lies from the moment the debate starts until it ends. She will check him.
Matt McIrvin
@Kay: A thing I’m really worried about at this point is people nominally on “our side” getting violent. Trump’s good at provoking it and clearly wishes a motherfucker would, and there are idiots willing to oblige him. Some of that was already happening during the primary season–people rushing the stage at Trump rallies and such; Trump, oddly, claimed Bernie Sanders was putting them up to it.
Trump actually might not be able to capitalize that much on foreign or foreign-influenced terrorist attacks, because everyone knows he’s an ignoramus on foreign policy and Hillary has a tough reputation. But the more “left” violence that happens domestically aimed at Trump, the better Trump looks as a law-and-order candidate.
Bruce K
When will the GOP realize this is their Kobayashi Maru test? Rove had his four years ago and failed spectacularly; Reince seems to be trying to dig deep enough to resurface, while Ryan, McConnell, and company seem to be trying to have it both ways…
Matt McIrvin
@Bruce K: Remember, Kirk cheated his way to a win and got credit.
The Thin Black Duke
@Matt McIrvin: Sure, but remember that the reason Kirk won that test was because he was intelligent (never mind the heresy in the wretched reboot). Trump ain’t.
SFAW
@sunny raines:
Only problem with that analogy is the chance that someone says “Oh, the humanity!” with respect to either Deadbeat Donnie or ZEGS. And “Oh, the soulless motherfuckers!”, while more accurate, is hardly mellifluous.
Outside of that, I like the idea.
ET
The Khan comments seem to have really needled Trump in a way that isn’t usual. It hit a sensitive spot. Oh and would anyone really believe Pence’s “Donald Trump will support our military and their families and we will defeat the enemies of our freedom,” that were made to whitewash Trump comments.
Jeffro
@sigaba:
#SheBeThere (use it!)
Jeffro
@ET:
Of course they did – this is a Muslim family after all, they are by definition already suspect in the eyes of Trump and his supporters. And yet, as a grieving family, as the parents of a fallen American soldier, they are practically unimpeachable. Look at that Benghazi mom who went after HRC – wrong on her facts, and yet still almost unassailable due to her loss.
Here we have the Khans – these brown-skinned, ‘heavily accented*’ folks – who clearly understand and love the essence of this country, who are absolutely correct in their assessment of Trump, AND whose son died serving his country. Major cognitive dissonance there for the Right.
*FU Ann Coulter also too
Bruce K
@The Thin Black Duke: And also, Kirk kind of got bit in the butt when Khan dealt him a Kobayashi Maru situation he couldn’t cheat his way out of later on…
Chris
I’m pretty sure this is how the entire Republican base works, actually. Unless they’re winning, when they get setbacks like 1992 or 2008, they go absolutely fucking rabid mad.
J R in WV
@Mandalay:
Wow, what a good job by whoever did that. A good life cut short on the one hand, and death standing there looking at you on the other hand. Trump and the Trumplets are despicable, and can’t help showing off their despicableness.
Jeffro
Somewhat OT: I see that additional Gold Star families are joining the Khan’s fight, and good for them. However, knowing Trump (and Manafort, and Stone) I have no doubt they will drag out other, pro-Trump GS families and let them all go at it in the media. Not sure what the solution is, other than to run ads shaming Ryan, McConnell, McCain in their home districts?
Barbara
@Jeffro: What is so shocking is that a different response isn’t even hard. Look at the difference between Clinton’s comments regarding Benghazi mother in interview with Chris Wallace — basically, she defended what she said at a meeting of families by pointing out that other families who were there agreed with her own memory of what was said, but that she would never criticize a mother who has suffered such a terrible loss if she remembers the meeting differently. Sometimes it’s as if you have to thread a needle while someone is screaming in your ear, and it can be really hard to figure out the best words and tone, etc. But responding to a grieving family who calls you out for real or even imagined slights — not hard to stay on high ground. Trump can’t even do that much. It’s astounding.
philadelphialawyer
@Mnemosyne: I don’t see what’s to fear. Debates are always tricky, and Hillary could screw them up, if they are held. But if Donald ducks, and the debates are cancelled, Hillary wins by default. The media will focus on Donald’s being a scaredy-cat, cry baby, quitter/faker, and Hillary doesn’t have to do a damn thing. Hillary is the safe, stay the course, “establishment” choice, and probably will be the front runner too, so Donald has to make his case against her. Candidate debates are usually seen as an opportunity for the underdog or outsider, who usually want more of them than have been scheduled, not something they have to be dragged to. Also, Hillary addressing an unoccupied podium would be kind of surreal, maybe even stupid, like Clint’s conversation with the empty chair. And, with nothing else to do, and to make it seem “fair,” the moderators would probably try to trip her up. And with no Trump to compare her to, any slip or gaffe on her part would become the news.
Brachiator
@Amir Khalid:
I disagree that Trump was up against 16 poor opponents. Especially Ted Cruz, who had formal debating chops. But Trump did not fight fair, did not follow any of the normal or even informal rules of political debating.
And he used the debates as a stage on which he tore down his opponents and sold his key issues to his supporters and viewers.
Doug R
@MarilyD SOregon: Hillary helped start the Iran nuclear deal, which goes a LONG way towards preventing the worst kind of war, kind of blows a hole in that hawk argument.
gogol's wife
@Steeplejack:
@MarilyD SOregon:
So why was she for Bernie? What I want to know is, what was Shirley Temple Black really like? (ST fanatic)
Stan
OK I’ll offer a prediction: I think there WILL be debates and more than two candidates will be there.
If Hillary takes a stand on the 15% rule she is the one who will look like a chicken / getting off on a technicality. It will feel more ‘democratic’ to a low information voter if anyone running is allowed up on the stage. Trump can win that argument if it is posed as Trump’s camp vs Hillary’s.
If Hillary can appear to agree with ‘whatever the commission on debates wants” and THEY nix the idea, then she’s OK.
MarilyD SOregon
@gogol’s wife: Checking in after going to bed way too late last night…..thanks for my morning smile…I would ask her next weekend, but I don’t want a repeat of our phone conversation! I will ask her on 11/9, if that’s OK with you.
gogol's wife
@MarilyD SOregon:
Thanks! I’m a huge fan.
Terry chay
@Major Major Major Major: the rules are set by a nonprofit organization. She doesn’t get to refuse because they will not accept a third party unless it polls higher