"Yes, it’s important that their dad is a feminist, because now that’s what they expect of all men." https://t.co/zHBnmSjyUe
— laura olin (@lauraolin) August 4, 2016
… It is absolutely men’s responsibility to fight sexism too. And as spouses and partners and boyfriends, we need to work hard and be deliberate about creating truly equal relationships.
The good news is that everywhere I go across the country, and around the world, I see people pushing back against dated assumptions about gender roles. From the young men who’ve joined our It’s On Us campaign to end campus sexual assault, to the young women who became the first female Army Rangers in our nation’s history, your generation refuses to be bound by old ways of thinking. And you’re helping all of us understand that forcing people to adhere to outmoded, rigid notions of identity isn’t good for anybody—men, women, gay, straight, transgender, or otherwise. These stereotypes limit our ability to simply be ourselves.
This fall we enter a historic election. Two hundred and forty years after our nation’s founding, and almost a century after women finally won the right to vote, for the first time ever, a woman is a major political party’s presidential nominee. No matter your political views, this is a historic moment for America. And it’s just one more example of how far women have come on the long journey toward equality.
I want all of our daughters and sons to see that this, too, is their inheritance. I want them to know that it’s never been just about the Benjamins; it’s about the Tubmans too. And I want them to help do their part to ensure that America is a place where every single child can make of her life what she will.
That’s what twenty-first century feminism is about: the idea that when everybody is equal, we are all more free.
Apart from GOTV — and watching the Olympics — what’s on the agenda for the day?
Very excited – Julian Assange of @wikileaks will be speaking at the #GreenConvention about the #DNCLeaks! https://t.co/iz2SjzopFM #GNCinHOU
— Dr. Jill Stein (@DrJillStein) August 5, 2016
Betty Cracker
Bravo and well said, President Obama.
Assange is almost as creepy as the Green Bay Clown from last night’s open thread. I concur with what Cole tweeted about him: “Just saw Assange on Real Time and it feels like they used the Eric Cantor mold at the asshole factory to create him.”
ETA: As for today’s agenda, I’m off to the beach since it’s supposed to be a stormy weekend. The only sensible reason to go to a beach in Florida during the summer is to watch storms roll in. Expect wading bird pictures later!
mike in dc
The Cornel West/Jill Stein commercial running makes me all stabby. Younger people are more susceptible to PTSD(Purity Troll Stupidity Disorder) and too many may be taken in by this bullshit.
Ultraviolet Thunder
Haircut, water house plants, clean aquarium, walk Doglius, pull weeds in the garden, then dinner and a movie for Lady Thunder’s birthday.
She turns 56 on Tuesday but I will be 3 time zones away working for a few days.
OzarkHillbilly
I’ve been dealing with depression all my life, usually more, a few times less successfully. Anyway been noticing a few… emotional for lack of a better word, changes in me that are wholly unlike me. Saw a neurologist who said all was fine on his end but sent my to a psychiatrist who said it was due to age and the depression. Put me on a new to me anti-depressant (I’ve tried others) and…..
What day is it? It’s dark outside. Did the sun just set or is it about to rise? Why won’t my hand stop shaking? I think I’m gonna puke. No, I can’t, I didn’t eat anything at all yesterday….
And this is 36 hrs after I took one single capsule. I hate this shit.
Ultraviolet Thunder
@mike in dc:
I’m a bit worried about 3rd parties this year. A real wild card. I think Hillary is safely out of range of being Nadered at this point but a close race could support Trump’s claim of a stolen election.
Local note: our neighborhood is 96% white and 86% Dem. One African American neighbor has had GOP yard signs for every election. Not yet this year.
I would be very surprised to see a Trump sign on that lawn.
ThresherK (GPad)
Spousal ThresherK Is at Oz convention in Phila, so I’ve got the place to my own. She’s been gone since Thurs morning (brief stop back here that eve) and her cat is becoming that 83rd combo of clingy and bewildered. But he won’t stop trying to bite my calf–a normal (sic) behavior from him.
Shalimar
@OzarkHillbilly: Years ago I took one dose of Wellbutrin and had a hard-to-describe feeling, almost like I wasn’t part of the world anymore, very strange and very horrible, together with irritation and nausea and other more normal side effects. Never took it again. Ugh. 36 hours is a lot longer than the afternoon I suffered for, but it has to wear off at some point.
mike in dc
@OzarkHillbilly:
I’m a lifetime depressive too. Getting the right diagnosis matters because it affects what type of meds might work for you. Whenever you get a new prescription, it’s good to ask about potential side effects. That info is available online, of course, though if you also suffer from anxiety it’s probably best not to dwell on the rare side effects of meds! As you may know, there are additional non-pharmacological things you can do to regulate your mood and fight depression:
1. Proper diet and nutrition: eat right and take vitamins
2. Proper sleep: sleep 7-9 hours a night and go to sleep at the same regular time every night.
3. Regular exercise: Try to work out at least 2-3 times a week, it pumps up the energy level and when I do it my depression dissipates for a while
4. Sunlight: Try to get outside and go for a walk every day. Sunlight helps mood.
5. Socialize: Meet and talk with friends and family. Go on dates, etc.
6. Challenge negative self-talk: This is basically the core element of cognitive behavioral therapy, one of the most effective approaches to treating anxiety and depressive disorders. It works in part because it empowers you to “do it yourself”, to talk yourself out of a negative mindset that can escalate depression.
Being on the wrong meds sucks. You should tell your psych about the side effects sooner rather than later. Good luck!
ThresherK (GPad)
Also, un-wow. Nobody on this space has expressed yet, Why don’t the Greens unload some of their bile on the Right?
Because it’s what we expect of them now. We’ve all got that LW version of Crazy Uncle Liberty* in our FB feeds, that’s why.
And that person needs a name. What do we call him, anyway?
(h-t Driftglass)
OzarkHillbilly
@Shalimar: This is some unpronounceable generic, the 3rd antidepressant I’ve ever tried, and all 3 have been shot down after one pill. This one is by far the worst. I’m feeling like lying down again. Gonna have another cup of coffee, if I still feel shitty after that, I will.
Betty Cracker
@ThresherK (GPad): Nutty Aunt Equality?
@OzarkHillbilly: Seems like a lot of people are struggling to chase the Black Dog away. Hang in there.
Ultraviolet Thunder
@mike in dc:
All correct. I was treated with meds from 85-2003 for depression and that is all good advice.
Everyone is different. I struggled and just barely managed to maintain until the right therapist found the right oddball combo for my life. Getting well shouldn’t be so hard but it can be.
mike in dc
@OzarkHillbilly:
Dosage level also matters. Make sure your psych is starting you out at minimum dosage to minimize the side effects. Here’s a list of antidepressants from wiki. You can probably find the one you were prescribed here.
NotMax
Saturday mornings are supposed to be for cartoons.
So… a cartoon.
ThresherK (GPad)
@Betty Cracker: How about Nutty Auntie Equality? Worth it for the “anti” homophone alone.
(Autocorrect hijinx: It wanted “homophobe”.)
Taylor
OT a dreadful fire at a birthday party in a bar in Rouen…..birthday candles set fire to polystyrene ceiling tiles.
Polystyrene?! Isn’t that supposed to be covered with a flame barrier (such as drywall)?
Baud
@ThresherK (GPad):
It’s not what their funders want them to do.
Ultraviolet Thunder
3rd party curious adults who object to having to vote for the lesser of two evils should be reminded that they have a responsibility to use their votes to bring about a less evil world.
mike in dc
@ThresherK (GPad):
I almost want to start a SuperPAC to run ads mocking them and pointing out West’s ridiculousness. Maybe the Green With Envy SuperPAC?
Baud
I heard a lot of Bernie supporters were supporting libertarians this year. Both Johnson and Weld were on Chris Matthews yesterday, and they were both proud to be the only pro free trade ticket in race. So there you have it.
ThresherK (GPad)
@NotMax: I had no idea Rudolf Ising was still in-house at MGM in ’42. Was expecting a Hanna Barbera nameplate.
@Taylor: I read books about every fire you’ve heard of and perhaps some you haven’t. The General Slocum, the Iroquois Theater, the Sultana.
This is staggering, like “Is it 1908?” staggering. Good gawd.
ThresherK (GPad)
@Ultraviolet Thunder: I think the term is “tri-curious”, a nod to Olympia Snows and all the useless “bi (partisan) curious” Senators.
OzarkHillbilly
@Taylor: Well, building codes in the US require that.
Ultraviolet Thunder
@ThresherK (GPad):
I suppose there’s a parallel to guaranteeing you’ll get boned no matter what the outcome. And guaranteed to have the right to complain about it.
MattF
@Ultraviolet Thunder: My DC suburb (Bethesda!) is similar. My next door neighbors moved to a ‘senior’ living facility a few weeks ago– I got a call from them a couple of days ago and they were scandalized that their new neighbors were Trumpers.
MomSense
@OzarkHillbilly:
I don’t like this at all, Ozark. Please don’t take another one. Have you talked to your doctor?
cmorenc
@mike in dc:
Cornell West (who is on the faculty at Princeton, at least I think he is) strikes me as the kind of professor whose class would be fun and educational to audit, but potentially toxic to have to take for credit. And who should remain a long-hair college prof ranting at and deconstructing the foibles of US history and society, but kept miles from actually being given any political or government office. He looks like boxing promoter Don King on a bad hair day.
rikyrah
Good Morning ?,Everyone ?
Scapegoat
Curious situation related to “feminism” (quoted for reasons).
Backdrop: Grew up (essentially) without a father after age 6. Only boy of a single working Mom, with two sisters. Been acutely aware of women’s equal (if not superior in many cases) skills and struggles related to social equality.
Today: Fifty years later, am celebrating great progress for women. Mrs. Scapegoat (the larger bread-winner) joins a group sponsored by our pediatrician, called New Moms Coffee. Without doubt, a life-saving support network. Women (only) can meet three times a week, mid-day, and exchange experiences and provide support for each other. My wife has found a group that resonates deeply with her and is meeting many fascinating women.
Here’s the curiosity. They have a Facebook group. Also women only. Turns out, this is a cornucopia of parenting — events for kids, meet ups, items for sale, tips on all things baby, etc.
In short, it’s a club. A powerful and highly effective club.
Curiously, it’s a club that is also closed to men; who, coincidentally, are (by definition) one-half of “the team”. While many good arguments can (and are) made for this, the net result is a kind of profound exclusion and further isolation for men who also have had their lives heavily impacted by new parenthood.
Not entirely sure how to feel about this, but know that other very supportive dads are similarly conflicted — wanting to support their wives/partners, even if it means they’re even further on the outside.
Recently a tale was circulated of a man who lost his wife during childbirth. Horrific situation. He asked to join the group, desperately needing support and insight. The pediatrician’s response? Denied (albeit with regret).
He asked to join the Facebook group, at least. Response? Denied.
(This kind of freaked me out. The guy is ALONE, grieving, and an excluded single parent, from what in many ways is a wonderful support network. )
Any thoughts about this?
ETA: my little bundle of joy just woke up. So I may not be able to actively follow this thread if anyone has comments. However I will be reading them. Today is Dadurday and me and the Billygoat are off to our first swim lessons. Yes, kids start these days at the age of six months. Thank YMCA!
Aimai
@OzarkHillbilly: so sorry Ozark Hillbilly! old Age is not for sissys.
Baud
@Scapegoat: Why can’t they form their own Facebook group?
mike in dc
@Scapegoat:
Is the club and site intended as a safe space for moms? That would be one possible reason for gender exclusivity. What if a mom is dealing with domestic violence? She may not feel comfortable discussing it with a man present. That’s all I can think of, offhand.
OzarkHillbilly
@mike in dc: 1. Proper diet and nutrition I do better than most, but not as well as I could.
2. Proper sleep: I suffer from insomnia, mostly due to pain from arthritis, bursitis, tendonitis, and a few itises they have yet to name. Nothing much can be done about it either.
3. Regular exercise: I’m a semi-employed carpenter who when not working is working around my little 13 acre piece of Eden. I should take daily walks but rarely do- not enuf time in a day.
4. Sunlight: I’m outside every day, typically 8-12 hrs.
5. Socialize: Meh, my wife and I live out in the woods. Nearly all my friends and family are at least an hour away. and I hate the phone. the only thing I hate more than the phone is talking on the phone. I make exceptions for my sons and my MN sis.
6. Challenge negative self-talk: I am a master at this, it is what has kept me more successful than not at avoiding the soul sucking depths of doom and gloom that are always there waiting to embrace me once again to it’s cold black bosom.
When I go see the psych again, we’ll try something else, and when that doesn’t work we’ll try again and again and again…. Cause what’s going on now is beyond my ability to control and while it is minor right now, there is no guarantee it will stay that way.
Kay
Why would most people care about the DNC internal communications? I mean, unless it’s somehow related to illegality, are most people surprised that employees of a political organization engage in politics?
The whole Wikileaks/DNC thing seems, broadly, like a kind of category error, and these are RECOGNIZED categories. For example, there’s a wall between Congressional staff functions and purely political functions of Congress members.
The DNC functions as a political org. Politics is what they do. To me it’s like the least surprising revelation in the world- “this political organization is overtly political!” I just think about the times there have been exposes of political orgs and it’s for stuff like using Party credit cards for gambling or bribery. It’s never “some of them preferred one candidate over another!” or “they gossiped!”
MattF
@Scapegoat: The pediatrician should have tried harder– by recommending options for support that aren’t single-sex.
Baud
@Kay: It’s about creating a meme, not about reality.
Aimai
@Scapegoat: crazy! I help run a new parents group in Simerville, MA and we are open to all parents–whatever gender. Whatever gender presentation. We have straight and gay parents, men and women, and although the guys are very outnumbered by the wimen they are an integral part of the group. However I will say that its very difficult to get a men only group started. And almost all of the patents who come have one interested parent and one who simply refuses to “be a joiner”–we have tried to organize a mens group for years but (in my experience) new dads are not comfortable in this setting just hanging and sharing the struggle. If they pay for a short course they will sometimes treat it like work and show up but otherwise? No. In re the guy who lost his wife? A lot of people are not equipped to handle death in their baby group–but many of them have probably dealt with infant loss, miscarriage, sick children, eldercare and spousal care. Maybe they did not want to take on the task of caring for the new widower and his family in addition.
Iowa Old Lady
@OzarkHillbilly: Oh man, that’s tough.
OzarkHillbilly
@Scapegoat:
There are groups for single parents and while dominated by women these women seem to be especially receptive of men joining the group, not for dating but because it goes against the stereotype of men ‘don’t care’ about their children. He should contact a counselor who in addition to pointing him towards such a group can help him too.
Kay
@Baud:
“Debbie Wasserman-Schultz was politically connected and used that for promotion within a purely political org”
My stars! Really? I’m outraged.
Iowa Old Lady
@Baud: Sanders voters who switch to free trader Johnson prove they’re just posturing fools.
We’re going to our local Farmer’s Market and then, later, to see Star Trek today.
Baud
@Kay: It’s just one manifestation of the general theme in our political culture that says Democrats are intrinsically illegitimate. It’s ultimately no different from the serious critique that the president … uses a teleprompter!
Kay
If everyone is outraged with politics in political orgs, the Green Party should do their own housekeeping.
They file stupid, conspiracy-theory based lawsuits on voting issues in Ohio that I believe are SOLELY to increase their list of contacts among Democratic voters and fundraise.
They actually hurt the voting rights cause- they discredit voting rights advocates who bring real lawsuits with this ridiculous bullshit about “computer patches” to voting machines and Mitt Romney’s son. Their bringing woo-woo into voting rights helps no one but the Green Party. They’re the anti-vaccers of voting rights, if we’re all truth-telling here.
JPL
@OzarkHillbilly: Hopefully, the meds wear off soon. That has to be a terrible experience. Take care of yourself.
bystander
I was living in France in 1970 and 71. There was a fire in a disco with plastic panels on the ceiling. The management had cleverly locked the fire exits in a fit of Cartesian logic (there is no fire therefore we don’t need fire exits). Of course the horror of the ensuing fire was compounded by the melting plastic panels. That same year, a wedding party was decimated when the floor of the village gathering place gave way into the water below. The French and their self-inflicted disasters are worthy of a book.
I love the teevee talkingheads telling us if only Trump would stick to reading from a monitor he’d be all Presidential and such and we can all forget all the lies and racism and sexism and general hate we’ve been watching for the past year.
OzarkHillbilly
@MomSense: I’ve had bad reactions before and when I do I stop. It’s supposed to make things better, not worse. I see him in a month. We’ll do something different then. This is not a ‘do or die EMERGENCY EMERGENCY’ situation, just a ‘I recognize the changes and I want to get on top of them’ kind of thing.
Robert Sneddon
@ThresherK (GPad):
Rainbow Unicorn Magicsparkle gets my vote.
Steve!
@ThresherK (GPad): I’ve heard Tofu Palin, which I like quite a bit.
Edit: for Stein, of course. Haven’t heard a good one for West yet.
MattF
@bystander: Given Trump’s well-known BS artistry, the ‘he’s gonna pivot and convince everyone that he’s just like Reagan’ strategy isn’t 100% credible.
Kathleen
@OzarkHillbilly: I would call your doctor. Several years ago my doctor prescribed medication that made me so sick after 1 pill I couldn’t go to work. I called the office and got a new prescription, which worked much better. You also might want to check with your pharmacist for some insight. I think they know much more about medication than doctors do.
Betty Cracker
@Kay: I’ll take the Greens seriously when they start showing up at community meetings about local issues. Maybe they do that in some places, but not around here.
ThresherK (GPad)
@Kay: Wait, these people undermine voting rights? I now pronounce them Useful Idiots.
Jeebus Christ. I’ve been ignoring them, didn’t know that was part of their Purity Purge. Let me know when the SPLC doesn’t seethe at their guts, and maybe then I’ll reconsider.
OzarkHillbilly
Jennifer Rubin is making a lot of sense:
msdc
@Scapegoat: If you genuinely want to help this grieving dad, then you and those other supportive dads can form your own group on Facebook, or even better, in real space. Let the pediatrician know if you don’t have the dad’s contact info.
But considering your self-pitying nym, and how you spent most of your post complaining about the mere existence of a mom’s group, maybe the grieving dad should just Thank You for Your Concern.
NorthLeft12
Apparently the Green Party’s plan for America involves the hacked DNC emails in some fashion.
Is Ms. Stein planning on linking this information to the lack of privacy of groups and individuals? Or perhaps the national security implications? I dunno, maybe its a “How To” session? Or is it just a chance to smear the Dems and Hillary Clinton? Hmmmm, I tend to lean towards the last one, but I really can’t believe that the only pure Progressive in the race, and one with the high moral integrity of Ms. Stein would just choose to stoop to that level. Say it ain’t so.
Scapegoat
@Baud:
I did just start one, and a bi-weekly evening gathering, but it’s a thin shadow of the moms entity. Separate but (un)equal, and all that.
Kay
this is an example of what I’m talking about:
The objective is to make the Green Party out to be the only people uncovering these “truths” about election rigging. They did the same thing in 2004. If the 2012 lawsuit had succeeded it would have caused chaos and screwed up the “election protection” plans that had been in place for more than a year when the Green Party decided to barge in and grift off the specter of a “stolen election”. They’re no better than Trump on “election rigging”.
Ohio has real issues with voter suppression in AA communities- it’s done legally by changing laws and administrative rules to drive down the vote in precincts and counties with a lot of AA’s or young people or poor people. These conspiracy theories do not help. They hurt. But they’re good for fundraising and outrage generating!
Scapegoat
@mike in dc: That is the intended rationale, however the unintended consequences raise some interesting dilemmas.
msdc
@Kay:
Also of vaccinations, apparently.
Betty Cracker
@Scapegoat: Good for you for starting a group, but please don’t go here:
msdc
@Scapegoat:
Okay, I had some doubts at first, but now we know you’re a troll.
JMG
It is notable that in other Western democracies the Greens are a recognized and respected if marginal part of the political scene, whereas here they are by and large cranks. Some of that may be because parliamentary systems are multi-party so there’s more hope for minor parties, but I think much of it is because Greens do organize campaigns for local and regional offices so they are a more visible part of the system. Why not put up a few state rep candidates here in Mass., gang. Why is it only President? Could it be because what you want is attention, not responsibility for problem solving?
Scapegoat
@Aimai: This is encouraging to hear!
The fellow who lost his wife was rejected SOLELY because he had the wrong equipment between his legs. The women in the group largely wanted to help him, but leadership voted against — you know, “exceptions to the rule” and all not being cricket.
I can’t even reach out to this (unknown) guy because of HIPA regs preventing identification.
Kay
@Betty Cracker:
That’s part of it. Their whole role in Ohio is to peel off Democrats. Labor people call that “slice and dice” because two factions are less powerful than one. After the slicing the two smaller factions get diced. The idea is ADDITION. Adding. 40% of people don’t vote at all- most of them are poor. They could have a healthy Green Party with those voters alone. But that’s WAY too much work.
Schlemazel
@OzarkHillbilly:
That sounds horrible, you need to discuss it with your doctor to see if that is a normal reaction & it would get better or you just need to never take that again.
I fiddled around with several meds & doctors (mostly thanks to the pasta-damned insurance companies) Till I found the right stuff. I have been off them since the radiation and the last few weeks have really been hell. I know I need to go to the doc & see if anything can be done but I just can’t make myself do it.
JPL
@OzarkHillbilly: She’ll start following the party line soon, unless there is another story that drives Trump over the edge.
Scapegoat
@msdc: WTF?
I believe that Separate IS Unequal. If you feel differently then we will have to disagree.
This group feels that a separate group for men is appropriate, but I feel it’s a dubious proposition.
?BillinGlendaleCA
As I mentioned downstairs, I went to the Getty Villa in Malibu yesterday; surprisingly I took some pictures*.
*There are 4 pictures with the 3D symbol in the right bottom corner, please use your red/blue 3D glasses.
rikyrah
@Betty Cracker:
They need to win and be successful in the City Council. State Representative, State Senate -positions where you have to do constituency services. Where you have to prove yourself. Green voters like to live in the pony and unicorn land.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@JMG:
Yes.
Kay
@msdc:
My friend Pat is a public health nurse for the county. Anti-vaccers can make her cry. 35 years – her whole career- making sure poor children are vaccinated and the conspiracy theorists arrive.
rikyrah
@Kay:
If they are not actually getting out there to fight voter suppression, then they are the problem. Thanks for telling me about this Kay. Now, I know another reason to dislike them.
Schlemazel
@ThresherK (GPad):
Bile against the right? Why would they do that when the real enemy are the liberals who are not woke enough (gawd I hate that term but it fits in this context) to realize that we will never have real progress as long as liberals don’t vote Green!
Seriously. I remember reading the writing of one of the communist party heads in 1930’s Germany & he expressed this very clearly. I should see if I can find it, it might be good for a sick laugh and for historical comparison. He used the words “the real enemy” when talking about the Social Democrats.
Waldo
@bystander: Gotta love the pundit logic: If only Trump were less obviously unfit to be president, he’d be totally fit to be president.
rikyrah
@Kay:
Routine for the revolutionaries : they don’t want to do the hard work of serious organizing.
Scapegoat
@Betty Cracker: Oops! Bad linguistic nomenclature.
The “(un)” before “equal” is my emphatic position and the reason for my concern. Sorry this came across the wrong way!
I guess, ultimately, this becomes a situation where gender specific support may become a form of discrimination?
This is what I am struggling to come to terms with. What sort of feels right to me, is the group and Somerville Massachusetts. Why not be open to all, and for gender specific concerns one could simply have a breakout group?
msdc
@Scapegoat: Again, if your chief concern is helping this grieving dad, then you can set up your own group – you can even make it mixed gender if you want! no one is stopping you! – and pass your contact info along to the pediatrician. Or ask the mom’s group to pass it along, since they’ve apparently been in touch with him.
But if your Concern is whining about the mere existence of a mom’s only group (and comparing it to Jim Crow? seriously?), then you aren’t really looking to help anybody.
What you do next will tell the difference.
OzarkHillbilly
@Schlemazel:
Screw that. Count me as among those ‘who’d rather die’ then go thru this kind of hell for a week or 2. I’ll see him in a month, we WILL try something else.
mike in dc
@Scapegoat:
Well, the name of the group is “New Moms Coffee”, not “New Parents Coffee”. It’s like the difference between “Students United” and “Black Students United”. You wouldn’t ask “but why can’t white students join Black Students United?”
Seems like the logical solution is just to start a parents’ group.
Schlemazel
@Taylor:
Polystyrene should never be installed in any horizontal surface! I was a firefighter for a time & we had a house fire where the owners had used polystyrene bead insulation above the ceiling. the flame got to it & by the time we got there the whole roof was a huge fireball. We saved the house (not that it matters because it was a total loss by that time) but that stuff is like gas. Installed vertically and it creates such dense smoke that it self-extinguishes but laid flat it has no such problem.
Frankensteinbeck
@Baud:
A lot of Bernie supporters were libertarians doing their yearly dance of telling everyone that they’re open-minded non-bigoted ‘independent’ swing voters before voting Republican like they always do. It’s a major American tradition. The problem is that I see almost all of them returning to the Republican Party in the general, no matter what they’re saying right now. The same logic suggests the Stein voters will do the same to Hillary, thank goodness. I have high hopes for depressed Republican turnout and minorities ditching the GOP permanently, not for whites to move in any direction.
By a similar process, Ben Carson got a lot of support from evangelicals who wanted you to know that their movement was based on morality, not race hate, right up until he got any traction and they dropped him because they sure as Hell weren’t going to let a black guy be their nominee.
@OzarkHillbilly:
These sound like bad reactions. I counsel stopping until you can get advice from your doctor. Stopping SSRIs does have side effects. it’s the biggest problem in prescribing them. Still, a few days of those, tops, are being balanced against a month of what you’re going through. In particular, I think you should take our advice and stop because you say you’re confused and not eating. This medicine is interfering with your judgment. It’s the ‘drunk person not knowing how drunk they are’ problem. If this is all harmless, you can start again after talking to your doctor.
EDIT – I misread you at first and it sounds like you are stopping. Thank goodness.
Aimai
@Scapegoat: ok well–first of all you dont know anything for sure since you arent a member of this group. Second of all its a private facebook group not a public, community sponsored, group like mine. There is nothing stopping you from starting your own fathers group or using facebook, local pediatrucians offices, etc.. To reach out to single dads if this is your affinity group of choice. Demanding that other people take on a task that you wont seems odd, to me. And frankly the more i read your story the fishier and more problematic it seems to me.
OzarkHillbilly
@Scapegoat: Women deal with issues that men can’t even begin to identify with. And men deal with issues that women can’t even begin to identify with.
Like I said, there are single parents groups out there and they are open to ALL single parents..
Scapegoat
@mike in dc: @mike in dc:
Ultimately, I guess the question you raise is the same one that I have in a slightly different form. Does it not make some sense for a (large) pediatric practice to simply have a New Parents Coffee, instead?
Reverse the situation. If the pediatric practice had a new dad’s coffee, and that was all they had, I think that there would be an uproar, and rightfully so, in my opinion.
Schlemazel
@OzarkHillbilly:
understood, I certainly wouldn’t take a second one but that just seems like such a long time and such a strong reaction that it doesn’t seem normal.
Mudge
@bystander: If Trump all of a sudden becomes “presidential”…my image is of Eddie Haskell from Leave It to Beaver, all “Yes, Mrs. Cleaver”, then blowing up the neighbor’s car.
And by definition, anyone who would have “Dr” in a twitter account handle is an asshole.
OzarkHillbilly
@Schlemazel: Hmmm… Seems even more problematic to me if it is normal. ;-) I am overly sensitive to some drugs while other drugs hardly affect me at all. (shrug)
Baud
@efgoldman: Yeah, I’d like to know if they have the same FEC reporting requirements as the major parties.
Frankensteinbeck
As for the Greens, my eyes were opened by the interview where Nader said that Trump’s support was because white men had been oppressed all their lives by not being allowed to use racial slurs or shout compliments at women about their body on the street. Yes, he used both those examples. Nader thought this oppression was unfair and those white men were exercising a legitimate grievance. Pretty much tells me what I need to know about the Greens.
@OzarkHillbilly:
This is a big deal. Republicans like an asshole and a racist. They see ‘chickenshit bully’ behavior as strength. What they hate is being laughed at or open cowardice. The movement that lives by superficial standards dies by superficial standards. I saw it when Rand Paul canceled a debate and his poll numbers plummeted until he rescheduled it. The non-Trump Republicans, including the media, don’t have any problem with his racist, moronic, substance-free message. They just want him to stop making it obvious that their positions are racist, moronic, and substance-free.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@efgoldman:
Republicans; and that’s Dr. idiot Stein to you, bud.
amk
white doods flip out.
woman and black man act cool.
murkkka in a gif.
mike in dc
The Green Convention is going on right now. I assume she “won” the nomination since she’s running commercials. No idea who their VP is, though a couple obvious candidates present themselves. I do hope those individuals will be “greeted” suitably at future progressive events.
Baud
@Frankensteinbeck:
I feel the same way.
@mike in dc:
Bloomberg stood with us in the fight against fascism. The Greens did not. I’ll remember that.
debbie
@OzarkHillbilly:
I was prescribed Tramadol last year and it took a few days to wear off. It got rid of the pain, but I felt slightly goofy and knew I shouldn’t try anything like driving.
Is your back any better?
scav
@mike in dc: but the power the sheer power! of a set of local women with social engagements involving children and playdates! How dare they? It does seem a bit of an over-reaction, There are those that seem to insist equal means indistinguishment and necessarily same in any and all instances but even then — this seems awfully small. Must be terribly rough to live in an environment so benighted that only a single social circle of import and cachet can be managed.
Aimai
@Scapegoat: yeah–no. Total bullshit. New dads who represent themselves as dads first are trested like god damned special snowflakes. There are plenty of dad only spaces.
MattF
@efgoldman: Anyone who’s been paying any attention will have a clear read on Trump’s character at this point. So, I guess the question for the Clinton campaign is, do you address yourself to the people who now get it, or to people who don’t get it and likely never will.
debbie
@OzarkHillbilly:
Your back injury might have something to do with your mood. Is that getting any better?
Emma
@Scapegoat: not really, if its intent were to help new fathers. Why don’t you talk to the practice and ask them to sponsor your group? Better yet, contact several practices in your area and ask them to help you, say, hand out flyers. It’s usually how the women groups get started, with a few women doing lots of legwork. Perhaps contact those women who you say would have admitted the guy and ask for advice.
Percysowner
@Scapegoat: Unless you are stating that the pediatric practice set up this group itself, with no input from the mothers, I don’t think you have a point. The situation sounds more like some mothers decided they needed a support group, set it up and then one of them notified the practice of its existence. I admit, I went to a family doctor who treated the whole family when I had my daughter, so I am not aware of what pediatric practices do, but I have never known a doctor or a practice to take the time to set up a social networking group on their own.
Although you seem unwilling to accept it, new mothers do have different problems than new fathers no matter how caretaking responsibilities are split. I am fairly certain that if you, as a father, state that you changed the baby, bathed the baby and watched the baby, you would be treated as some kind of saint. Whereas, if a new mother does all that it would not only be accepted as what she does, but also, she would be told how she bathed the baby wrong, dressed the baby wrong and exactly how she should be watching the baby. This doesn’t even account for the physical changes that happen because she carried a baby for 9 months.
I am sorry for the man who lost his wife, but he is dealing with issues that don’t fit into the New Moms group dynamic. The group isn’t set up to deal with grief. I agree with the above posters who say he needs to find a support group for parents without partners. Also since you noted that this is a “tale” about the Mom’s group, there may be more going on than you know, or it could be like Trump’s “people say”. Good luck with your group. You may also be able to find an already established mixed gender parenting group in your area by doing a little research. Since your pediatric group didn’t recommend one, perhaps you could call another pediatrician and see if they are aware of one.
Joel
@Taylor: Drop ceiling tiles are made of polystyrene/styrofoam. They’re supposed to have a fire retardant added. Honestly, another fucking reason to hate drop ceilings.
Just One More Canuck
@efgoldman: yes, Trump was getting praise on CNN this morning for literally doing the least he could do – endorsing 2 of his party’s leaders without sounding like a complete asshole while doing so. Talk about the soft bigotry of low expectations
Schlemazel
@OzarkHillbilly:
I was thinking more like there might be something other than the med involved. That just seems like such an extreme reaction. Hope the effects wear off soon & you are back to as normal as you can be.
Peale
@Kay: I guess the revelation is that a political organization isn’t non-biased. Like the lefties imagine that their revolution would go more smoothly if every institution was like an ideal judge, and no one but leftists were allowed to have biases or interests. Mainly because non-leftist biases or interests are by definition unfair, irrational, retrograde, and support a status quo that is clearly broken.
Schlemazel
I read this AM that people who signed up for reoccurring donations on Trump’s web site are now unable to stop the withdrawals! The web site has no function to allow you ro cancel the payments & the campaign is not returning calls or emails about how to make them stop.
Its grift, all the way down
Peale
@Just One More Canuck: it’s the pivot they’ve been waiting for! He’s tacking toward the far right of the party, when before, he was only speaking to the extreme right! If this keeps up, he’ll be appealing to the merely hard right after the Olympics.
Waldo
@efgoldman: Sounds like Trump stopped rage tweeting long enough to listen to his strategists. Won’t last, of course, but you know what they say: An ounce of intervention is worth a pound of slurs.
MattF
@Schlemazel: Trump’s web designers have successfully imbibed the boss’s business culture.
ETA: It might be interesting to examine other Trump web sites.
Schlemazel
@Peale:
Hillary will be in real trouble if he does that! Trump might possible win the battleground states of Georgia and South Carolina, finally amassing an electoral vote total of just over 100!
debbie
@Scapegoat:
It would have been nice had they offered names of groups that might be helpful rather than just denying entry to their group. Even so, I can’t believe there aren’t lots of dad groups.
Oldgold
Watching Trump’s endorsement of Ryan last night reminded me of statements read by POWs. It was truly pathetic. It was like all of Trump’s pivots, 360 degrees.
bystander
@Mudge: Trump as Eddie Haskell is perfect. A conniver in a thin veneer of decency. His endorsement of Ryan and Ayotte was like a reading of unfamiliar passages by Eddie in English class.
Quinerly
@OzarkHillbilly:
Good morning! I would check with the pharmacist like someone suggested. They seem to know more about side effects than most doctors. As for Jennifer R., I hate when I agree with her. And on a fun note, going to see our friends J. Higgins and Charlie P at a relatively new club on Cherokee Street…”The Blue Pearl.” They do show there one Saturday a month. Just two boys and their instruments…no amplification. Please feel better and don’t take anymore of that crap.
MattF
@Quinerly: As long as Jen stays away from commenting about the Hildebeast, she’s not too bad.
satby
A late good morning every one! I now have a boomerang dog, a pup I adopted out 5 years ago was brought back this morning by the owner, in tears. It’s nipped two people in the last week, which is an extreme change in behavior. Since they have a small child, they don’t feel safe keeping the dog, but they couldn’t bring themselves to take it to animal control either because they think something has frightened him. So he’s here for evaluation, and maybe for good.
gogol's wife
@Baud:
I’m surprised at how little play the Bloomberg endorsement has gotten in the media. I thought it would be a bit story.
satby
@OzarkHillbilly: Hang in there and feel better soon Ozark. Sounds like you know what you need, and I hope you get it resolved soon. You’ve had a tough couple of years health-wise, that’s got to be a factor.
gogol's wife
@gogol’s wife:
I mean big story.
OzarkHillbilly
@Quinerly: Give them some applause from an old and loyal but now distant fan for me.
rikyrah
@satby:
I hope that you find the answer for the dog.
Scapegoat
@Aimai: Fishier?
Maybe I’m not doing a good job explaining. I really have no interest in an “all men’s group”. What you have sounds ideal — a group for all parents.
Women undoubtedly have a number of special concerns and benefit immensely from a support group. I cannot state clearly enough – – I am in full support of this opportunity for women!
Men, also, have some needs and benefit as well from larger community engagement, educational insights, and parenting strategies. Having a separate group, to me, feels like being separate but being unequal. This I do not like any more than if men had a group that excluded women — especially if this group was the only show in town.
In your group do you have any subgroups to address gender specific concerns? This seems like it might be an ideal method to address individual gender and collective group interests.
?BillinGlendaleCA
One thing I saw yesterday at the Getty Villa is that Romans who lived in Egypt mummified their remains after they died, so for the Romans; “When in Egypt…”.
Immanentize
@OzarkHillbilly: Ozark, You may not be social inthe weekend cookout sense, but you are critical to my socializing. I love your comments in the morning and I always look for you on threads. In fact, I was wondering where you was at these past couple of days…. So please know there are a whole lot of people here who think supportive thoughts about you there.
I know you will hang in there and keep working the problem, but I’m gonna say it anyway.–
stay strong,
Jeff
Scapegoat
@OzarkHillbilly: Agreed. Wishing that there was a collective group, but there is not one currently. Yes, of course, I could try to establish such a thing; however, there is significant (and paid) infrastructure in place already for this women’s group.
?BillinGlendaleCA
Since I cannot edit my own comment(FYWP):
Updated picture of the Getty Villa: 33 pictures, 5 IR, and 5 3D.
Quinerly
@OzarkHillbilly:
I will. Saw Higgins Thursday when he played with Lydia R (I bet you know her! Remember “Spatz” from the old days?)Charlie usually does that Thursday gig with Lydia but he was out of town. Anyway, Higgins was laughing about my political FB posts. He had compared his hand size to Trump’s (think it was a Huff Po piece)…we got a big laugh…Mr. Higgins has very large hands. Please feel better. Talk to the pharmacist. That’s an order!
gene108
@OzarkHillbilly:
If the side effects are that bad, please call the psychiatrist and have him change meds or at the least reduce the dosage.
Baud
@?BillinGlendaleCA: I like the IR of the waves crashing.
Emma
@Scapegoat: so what you want is to find moral support for your desire to disrupt a well-established group and force it to accommodate you. All I can say is that as a private and privately funded group they don’t have to do so.
Scapegoat
@Emma: Good thought! I know a lot of dads want to simply be better at the task and would welcome more information and the opportunity for families (not just guys) to exchange this.
Quinerly
@MattF:
Hasn’t Rubin come out and said that she’s voting for HRC?
p.a.
What up with CNN’s new meme ‘Hillary fucked up an email answer’? Saw it while at the Y gym, so no sound on tv. Don’t really want to investigate further as it would result in broken digital device(s). This bs will never end. Ted Turner, where are you?
Technocrat
@MattF:
Yeah, you don’t “accidentally” omit a Cancel Subscription function. That was an affirmative, and very grifty decision on someone’s part.
OzarkHillbilly
@Quinerly: Ahhh Lydia oh Lydia…. I had a bit of a crush on her at one time. Still have a crush on her voice. I have one (the only?) of their CDs that gets semi-regular play.
I think I’ll do better than that, I think I’ll talk to my oldest son’s girlfriend (she has a masters in pharmacology) What are friends for? All their worth.
I just ate breakfast and it settled well. Now I’m gonna go take a nap.
Y’all play nice now, ya heah?
Immanentize
@rikyrah: ditto rikyrah Voting access is one of my passions. I will let others worry about back end conspiracies about machine code. A vulnerability? Yes. A personal human indignity? Not in the same way as telling someone who has voted for fifty years that now they can’t.
Quinerly
@Oldgold:
Trump’s earlier speech was particularly odd. He went on and on about HRC being “unhinged” and spent at least 5 minutes on rehashing throwing the baby out earlier in the week. Of course, he out and out lied as to how that went down. I have watched way too many of his rants.
Baud
@p.a.: I’ve decided to take a positive outlook and believe that the email thing helps to distract the media from inventing some more damaging fake scandel to attack Hillary over.
satby
@rikyrah: Well, I know that there’s a certain chaotic aspect to this family’s life and I suspect that the dog is reacting to that. One grandparent is a serious alcoholic and that’s who the dog bit, on the foot, so I wonder if a kick might have been involved. No witnesses. The father of the child, who brought the dog back, was a puddle of tears at giving the pup up because he loves it so and the dog obviously loved him, but it’s best for everyone. We’ll see if a slightly less chaotic household is better, and I’ll do some SAFER tests on him, and then we might be able to rehome him with an older, childless family if he passes those.
Scapegoat
@Emma: Uhhhhm… No.
Not trying to “disrupt” anything. Just wondering, hoping, there is a way to evolve into a more inclusive environment while still keeping the gender-specific benefits that women currently are getting.
I have to say, it’s a little bizarre to be a dad in today’s world and want to do a better job being a supportive partner — and to reach out for some guidance and be called a troll. Or be viewed as trying to do something that is “fishy”, or trying to “undo” something that is beneficial for women.
Apparently, trying to provide education and support to both halves of a parent equation is more of a hot button topic than I ever imagined!
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: I took that picture just for you.
bemused
@Betty Cracker:
Assange is weird and creepy. I don’t get what he was trying to achieve with bringing up Bill Maher contributing $1 million to Obama campaign….”William Maher of Los Angeles”…which was public news as Bill with a puzzled wtf pointed out.
Starfish
@OzarkHillbilly: It sounds like it is not the right medicine for you. I hope it gets straightened out soon.
Baud
@?BillinGlendaleCA: Aw. It’s not even my birthday.
Dork
@p.a.: Horse Racism. Not to be confused for speeches The Don gives, which are categorized as Hoarse Racism.
amk
@MattF: Good, let the rubes continue to be fleeced, at the end of it, they are poorer or wiser.
Technocrat
@Scapegoat:
Not trying to pile on, but I suspect you’re getting pushback because of language like this:
Men get gender-specific benefits too. It sounds like you’re looking at the situation though a lens which is firmly focused on your perspective, without seeming to show much empathy for theirs. I think “troll” is a bit much (internet reflex), but even I (a guy) get the impression that you are doing more arguing than listening.
Matt McIrvin
@p.a.: They’re saying she mischaracterized the shade of meaning of what Comey said about what she said about the email server. That’s the level of meta we are on now to find Hillary Lies.
Baud
@bemused: I even remember when he announced it on his show, and I don’t watch his show.
Maybe it’s one of those fake scoops like the “Iran hostage money” from earlier this week.
grumpy realist
@Taylor: Polystyrene is essentially solidified gasoline.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: Talking to the kid Thursday, she said she doesn’t trust HRC(but will vote for her) because “she lied about the email”. I tried to clear it up but pretty much told her, it’s complicated. She’s still not overly convinced.
Baud
@?BillinGlendaleCA: I just are about the vote. But could she identify the supposed lie that has her concerned.
NorthLeft12
@Frankensteinbeck: Your example pretty much tells me all I need to know about Nader. We have Greens up here in Canada that are a [somewhat] reasonable option to vote for if your local MP candidates from the major parties [Lib, NDP, and (ugh) Cons] are not worth a vote.
I don’t think it is fair to label the entire Green Party that way…..and yeah, I would say the same for the Repubs too.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: I should have taken video, the sound the waves made crashing against the shore were cool.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@Scapegoat: The push back is over your demand that this specific group provide the guidance and support.
My advice is this: give up on the idea that this group will provide the emotional support. They’ve already said no. What else does this group have that you would like to leverage for a new dad’s group?
A forum? They might consider establishing an auxiliary forum if you want to cost share, depending on whether the forum software supports it.
A collection of files/pages with advice and guidance on specific tasks? Again, in the interests of not reinventing the wheel, they might consider sharing access with a group willing to share hosting costs.
What do they have other than a close-knit community that an influx of new people would disrupt, possibly fatally?
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: We didn’t have much time to talk, she had to leave early to get ready to go camping with her bf.
Schlemazel
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
Nice shots! The Getty is on my list of places to go.
I was wondering if you had damaged your camera because some of the pictures were fuzzy & looked weird. They I noticed they are 3D . . . OH! You need to hand out the glasses :)
Baud
@?BillinGlendaleCA: I blame the bf.
debit
@satby: First and only nips in the last couple of weeks? Sounds like he might be in pain. Really glad you could take him back; so many just wind up at the shelter, or put down.
Barb2
@satby:
We just went through this with our Chihuahua. Vet checked him over, no pain responses, did blood work etc. I started asking if his behavior change could be arthritis related? So she sent us home with a few Rimdyl tablets. Two days and he is back to being a loving family member. The difference in behavior is like twp different dogs. Eventually we will take him off of Rimdyl. There are alternative arthritis treatment for dogs without the side effects. But for a quick diagnosis. . .
He got nippy, screaming before he was touched. He avoided even small hops not frisky. Dogs – individual differences in pain responses, just like humans.
The vet visit was last week.
p.a.
@Matt McIrvin: ahhhh… so an institution that can’t/won’t honestly analyze basic campaign issues is engaging in scholasticism.
Quinerly
@OzarkHillbilly:
I have all sorts of Lydia updates. She’s a good, good friend. New CD with Charlie P and Mike T (their band is “Mayor Taylor). I’ll save those stories for later. But here’s a short one. Lydia and Bonnie bought a beautiful second home outside of Taos 3 years ago. When our NM coincide, I make the day trip from Santa Fe to visit them. They are out on the mesa…incredible views. Those are some great gals. Ozark, I’m getting the biggest kick out of all our connections.? Will be seeing Red next week. Take care of yourself and get back on track. I, too, adore your morning posts.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: I do too, he’s a Republican.
bemused
@Baud:
It was an odd segue.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Schlemazel: Ah, no. I could provide some good links on Amazon for some cheep glasses. Even though I’ve saved them as red-blue 3d, blue-yellow 3d produces better color(it’s what I use here). I just do the red-blue since it more common.
scav
@Technocrat: Certainly more the tone and to a degree the expectations than the overall aspirations which seem off with the stated personal values I can’t believe there is only one group in the community, nor can I quite understand why it is so important to insist on getting into it, this one, the singular it (especially as forcing onesself in is likely to harm the comity within it, especially toward the forcer). More time and energy may be spent banging on about a personal social group (“Where’s my welcome mat!”) than simply finding some likeminded people and arranging to meet.
O. Felix Culpa
@Scapegoat:
Sorry. No. There’s nothing stopping you (or others) from having a dads-only or mixed-gender group. Just do it. That some women prefer to have their own group, for safety, comfort, or whatever, does not prevent you (and others) from providing the desired education and support, if indeed that’s the desire. Just do it.
Technocrat
@scav:
Truth. This was the top result of a “greaving dads” search:
JosieJ (not Josie)
@ThresherK (GPad):
I’m also an (in)famous fire buff–mainly because my worst fear is of dying in a fire. This kinda sounds like The Station fire in RI, where indoor pyrotechnics (in that case) set off polystyrene acoustic tiles.
Horrific.
Hal
@Matt McIrvin: I followed one of those trending news links on facebook and every response was some variation on Hillary lying about lying when she lied about that lie she lied about. I think the only people who care about that damn server at this point are the folks who were never going to vote for HRC anyway, but her “short circuit” answer does give the media a break from the trumpster fire for a day or two.
MattF
@Quinerly: I think not. She’s done a ‘Please, please, please swing to the right’ column, but no endorsement so far.
Technocrat
@scav:
Truth. This was the top result of a “grieving dads” search:
GrievingDads
Stella B.
@OzarkHillbilly: Waiting for a month until you see the shrink will just delay you from feeling better for a month. Give the doc a call, that’s what they’re there for. The ideal anti-depressant feels like it isn’t doing anything at all for the first few weeks. Some people are sensitive and need to start with tiny doses or experiment with quite a few meds before they find the right one.
O. Felix Culpa
@Quinerly: Are you in SF? If there are a few more around – or visiting – maybe we could do a BJ meet-up one of these days.
Scapegoat
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism: These are good suggestions. Thank you!
The main concern of theirs is a possible compromise of “the gender specific benefits” — meaning a women’s group where women can discuss issues with women in a confidential(ish) setting without any mansplaining getting in the way. I GET that and SUPPORT that aspect and am not sure why @Technocrat views my identification of this as a negative or pejorative sentence.
A few males have earned derision in the parenting department, no doubt. For some here to paint all males with this broad brush seems a bit, well… Judgemental.
Of course, feel free to pile on me as some kind of “dude bro dad” placeholder if that’s your preferred stereotype. I’ll be back after I feed and change Billygoat, put him down for a nap, wash bottles, do laundry, and watch the baby after he gets up while my wife gets some exercise.
Captain C
@ThresherK (GPad): Crazy Uncle Purity Pony?
msdc
@Scapegoat:
You didn’t reach out for some guidance or seek advice on being a supportive partner, and you certainly haven’t expressed much interest in “keeping the gender-specific benefits that women currently are getting.” You came here to gripe about the perceived benefits that some women are currently getting, using the more sympathetic example of a widowed father as cover.
If you were just looking for some support as a dad or even expressing a little envy of the community the moms have, I could understand that. Many of us have been in similar situations. But you kicked things off with complaints about scare-quotes “feminism” and comparisons to segregation, as if anything that isn’t specifically made for you is discriminating against you. And when called on it, you backpedaled and changed your tune and whined about how persecuted you are. Which does sort of fit the self-pitying, woe-is-me nym you’ve used from the start.
If you really want to help this other dad, folks here have suggested several means of doing so. If you just want to make it all about you and your victimization by the existence of moms groups, don’t expect applause.
Barb2
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism:
Group dynamics – research shows that a single male can change the dynamics of a female only group. This female only group is organized around a gender specific focus – female reproduction. Only the female of our species gets pregnant. This grieving male single parent has a different focus. Hopefully there is a single parent group he could join. More specifically he needs to join a grief focus group.
What would be best for him is a few one on one counseling sessions with a grief counselor. His personal grief is too overwhelming for most people to deal with. Our culture isn’t good with grief.
O. Felix Culpa
@cmorenc:
In the useless facts department, West is emeritus at Princeton and currently at Union Theological Seminary in NY.
Gelfling 545
@OzarkHillbilly: I have never seen the point of taking medications that just make you feel bad in a different way from your original complaint. My doctor and I frequently have disagreements over this but, since I am the inhabitant of this body, I win. On 3 occasions I have been coerced into taking anti-depressants. The first 2 were over a period in which it turns out I was severely anemic. They also got me to try one for the fibromyalgia. No, thanks. I prefer the pain to the awful side effects. I would say to anyone that before you accept anti-depressants, make sure thorough blood testing has been done. Various issues can mimic depression.
Iowa Old Lady
@Waldo: Right, when the reasonable thing is to be grateful that Trump is showing voters who he is rather than disguising it.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@Barb2: Yup, which is why I pointed out a couple of times that they’ve already said they aren’t going to throw open the doors.
But if he approaches it from “This is what I’d like to replicate, got any advice?” instead of “Let me in!”, they might give him a leg up.
If the point of all this is to provide similar help to a different group of people.
Shalimar
@Scapegoat: This is the internet. We are used to men being total assholes to women, so the idea that new mothers would need a safe space away from men isn’t going to strike most people here as discrimination. You may have no intent to disrupt their group, but others would if they let you in.
Start a joint parents group, invite any members of the mom group to come too. They don’t have to be members of only one or the other. They can lend their experience to help you if you stop trying to intrude upon their private space. Respect what they are doing, even if you don’t understand it.
Captain C
@rikyrah: It’s easier to tell people they’re doing it wrong than tell them how to do it right, and even more difficult to do it right, oneself. Plus, I think some of these cranks just like shitting on others in a seemingly socially acceptable way.
Brachiator
@OzarkHillbilly:
I am not sure that you should wait if you are having a bad reaction or feeling worse. Are the problems you are having known side effects of the medication? In any event, you should let the doctors know.
I know it’s gotta be tough. Please take care.
The Other Chuck
@Scapegoat:
I’d like such womens-only groups to be unnecessary. You’re putting on a fine demonstration as to why they still are.
TS
@Scapegoat:
I did that every day for years and years – and held down a full time job – it is what a mother does without comment & what a father sometimes does & tells the world about it.
Meryton
@Kay: in Washington state primary for state and local races, more than a dozen people ran for governor from about half dozen political parties. Not one candidate was from the Green party.
Quinerly
@O. Felix Culpa:
I’m in St. Louis. Spend the month of February in Santa Fe. Actually this past February I was in Madrid?. Have good friends in Cerrillos/Madrid area so changed up my last stay. Would be cool for a meet up in SF when I’m there 2/17. As for Ozark, we figured out that we have all these mutual friends in the music/club business from his days here in St. Louis. I’m hanging with a couple of our mutual friends at 2:00 today. Small,small world. I have been a lurker here since the Bush Adm. Never commented until recently but I knew that Ozark and I had traveled in the same circles at one time. A couple of years back he posted a you tube of a musician friend. I signed up just to comment and did. But the thread was dead. So I never caught up with him on that thread. I went back to lurking. This election season prompted me to start commenting and then he and I made all these connections the other day on a morning thread.? Did I say, “small, small world.”
opiejeanne
@Scapegoat: What you’re doing is asking for the privilege of joining a ready-made group that was not tailored to include men. The women did all the work of setting this up for themselves, but now you want to change that group without doing any of the heavy lifting, you want to co-opt their work and change it to suit your desires. You do not help your case by sounding more than a little petulant that your wife goes off to these events without you.
Women have been systematically and historically excluded from men’s realm of power, of self-empowerment, for how many generations? and you have the gall to complain about the unfairness of your little itch.
Miss Bianca
well, I’m actually watching the Olympics…men’s beach volleyball (well, I dunno about beach, but they’re playing it in sand) while I’m waiting to get my car serviced. Hoping to hell it’s nothing hugely expensive…it’s a Honda, and I’ve hardly ever had major mechanical problems with them…
And then some writing.
@ThresherK (GPad): I’m calling them “White Wingers”. Because, Cornel West aside, they’re overwhelmingly white, and, while they won’t admit it, the fact that they’re attacking the only party that’s attracting a significant number of minorities, says more to me about where their priorities are than anything that actually dribbles out of their cakeholes.
Matt McIrvin
@Hal: The electoral-vote.com guy (a centrist Dem) characterized it as: Hillary finally gives a presser after stonewalling forever and DISASTER! He actually said that Clinton was behaving like Trump and vice versa. Both sides!
Miss Bianca
@Ultraviolet Thunder: Or in other words, that voting for “the lesser evil” automatically means voting for “the greater good”.
O. Felix Culpa
@Quinerly: I’m in Galisteo, so not far from Madrid/Cerillos. Moved here a year ago from Chicago. I also delurked fairly recently. Let me know when you’re back in the Land of Enchantment – would be fun to meet up! I’m partial to the cucumber-jalapeno margaritas at the Mine Shaft. :)
Enhanced Voting Techniques
You know Stien likely wants what best for the world, but she should really consider that not everyone who claims to be on her side, is.
Scapegoat
I’d like to thank everyone who shared some very good thoughts about how to create a beneficial forum to help all parents.
To those who believe, incorrectly, that I wish to undo any benefits for women or have men get special treatment: well, I’m not sure how to respond, other than you could not be more wrong. I just want us all to get along and to raise thoughtful children in the best way possible in a world that is — as some are proving here — sometimes very unfriendly and full of immutable stereotypes immune to any attempt to present evidence to the contrary. Peace…
kindness
I used to have respect for Jill Stein. Now, I just can’t find any.
J R in WV
@OzarkHillbilly:
Wow, I’m so sorry to hear that! Reactions to a new drug can be scary… did you call the Dr?
I will admit that every time I’ve tried to use that class of drugs, I’ve given up after a few days, but I’ve never had a problem like that, or of that magnitude. Hang in there old timer, while parts break down as we age, other things get tougher.
Try to not hurt yourself working. I’ve had to stop heavy lifting and just be grateful that the new shoulders don’t hurt when I not doing anything.
Take care!
Corner Stone
@Scapegoat:
I restrained myself from jumping in here several times, as this is a topic that can grind my gears. But, IMO, you did a fairly poor job of initially presenting the situation and then failed to take several even handed cues from people with a useful perspective.
opiejeanne
@TS: Thank you. Amen.
It is startling when you add up all the things you did as a mom and for how many years.
Scapegoat
@opiejeanne:
Lots of assumptions here that are incorrect:
1. Women did not set this up. My pediatrician did and pays staff to run it.
It’s a good idea and I (and many of the other dads) would like to participate in some fashion to learn and grow as well.
2. I am not at all petulant that my wife goes. I ENCOURAGE her to go, am THRILLED she goes, and arrange my schedule to help her get there.
Many people wonder why there are so few good dads out there. My theory is, if you offer a community for them to participate in and give them information to learn about better ways to do things, they might grow into the kind of dads that moms want? That’s all. Period. Full Stop.
Miss Bianca
@Scapegoat: No, the thing that’s getting people’s backs up here is that you seem to keep insisting that these women in the new moms’ group should *have* to take men. That sounds suspiciously like the guys who used to get pissed that “Take Back the Night” marches/rallies were intended to be women only. It didn’t come off as being an “ally” – it came off as sounding like men being mad that there was something going on that by design, *did not include them*.
Quinerly
@O. Felix Culpa:
Love me some Mine Shaft. Although my favorite margaritas are at Del Charro. Love a horseshoe shaped bar! Are you in Annie W’s Breakfast Club, by any chance? If you are, we have tons of mutual friends. One of my best friends is Lori Musil. She has that antique shop when you first drive into Madrid from SF. The food at the Hollar is the best.
opiejeanne
@Corner Stone: He ground my gears but good. I pared down my initial comment to him by half.
satby
@Corner Stone: hey, haven’t seen you around (which might be more about my sporadically reading the blog) and was hoping everything was ok.
Corner Stone
@satby: Hi there. Yes, had some family stuff to take care of and then my son and I went to the FL Keys for a few days for some snorkeling and tourist stuff. Been catching up on work since we returned.
opiejeanne
@Scapegoat: Is the pediatrician a woman or a man? Because if it’s a woman then a woman did set this up. Either way, good for them recognizing that women sometimes have need of a private space, apart from men. He/she did not recognize such a grinding need for men to have this same space or to share it with women, and it’s privately sponsored which means it gets to decide who is included.
The way you phrased your initial complaint sounded petulant about your wife going to it BECAUSE of your “look what a good dad I am being taking care of this baby while mom goes off to do this thing”. Your comments came across as martyrdom.
amygdala
@OzarkHillbilly: I’m so sorry you’re going through this. As if depression isn’t rough enough, getting onto the right treatment can be a real challenge.
Any other medications you might be taking, including over-the-counter ones, can have an influence, so it’s important your doc knows about those. Also, one of the many annoyances of the passage of time is that we tend to metabolize drugs more slowly over the years. This is especially true in middle age and beyond. Yet pharmacokinetic studies are usually done on young healthy individuals, usually men. Especially for drugs that act on the brain, starting with very low doses and dialing up very gradually is usually the preferred strategy.
Hope you feel better soon.
Scapegoat
@Corner Stone: in retrospect, I agree. It is difficult to explore a complex topic with one hand on a mobile device while the other hand is holding/nursing a baby. Forgiveness sought?…
For the record, mom’s rock. Truly the most under-celebrated job in the world. I have the greatest respect for what women go through and want to help in anyway that I can.
On a slightly different note, but still baby related, breast-feeding is now recommended by the AMA for one full year. I find this very interesting because absent a proposal for women to have one year off, fully paid, this is yet another burden that women have to struggle with in the working world.
I cannot imagine trying to work, breast-feed, pump, arrange childcare, etc., etc. It would be great if the AMA would sponsor a bill for women to receive one full year off work and still receive pay.
My own mother raised three children, ages 6, 4, and 2, while going to graduate school and then working, all on her own. Amazing!
the idler
@OzarkHillbilly: Ask for Lexapro …smooth as silk and works fast..and don’t accept the generic escitalopram…even if you have to pay for the Lex yourself..
nastybrutishntall
@OzarkHillbilly: A good acupuncturist can take care of most of the aches and pains. I know — I am one. Just try it if you haven’t. And if your first acupuncturist sucked, try another. Some are woo-woo flakes, some are symptom-focused magicians.
Also, I’d add awareness/insight/Vipassana or Zen meditation to the mix. It’s non-cognitive brain therapy, good at reregulating your autonomic nervous system. Also, it’s like having a regular reminder that whatever “you” is, it’s not your thoughts and feelings and everything else that is more or less determined by chance completely deterministically, but the awareness of it all. Sometimes, knowing you’re more or less along for the ride can help reduce the self-blame and hatred that goes along with depression.
scav
Oh dear. After using diapering the baby as a rhetorical “get out of jail free card” now we’re threatened with the disappearance of all good dads unless they’re catered to, rather than setting up group meeting all on their lonesome. Does scapegoat want a supreme court nomination with that?
opiejeanne
@scav: Heh heh heh. I like you.
burnspbesq
@Iowa Old Lady:
Saw it yesterday. It’s a great summer movie: fully engaging for as long as it lasts, and vanishes completely before you get to the parking lot.
However … during the previews, I learned, to my dismay, that there are remakes of “The Magnificent Seven” and “Ben-Hur” coming soon.
Ugh. Why?
J R in WV
Well, Olympics news. I don’t watch much, can’t stand NBC anymore.
But saw the headline, read the story. America’s first Gold Medal won by a young woman, Virginia Thrasher, on the West Virginia University Rifle Team in Air Rifle shooting. She is from VA and hasn’t been shooting for that long. WVU is coming off a 4 year streak of NCAA championships in shooting, Ginny Thrasher won both small bore (.22) and air rifle individual championships this 2016 season.
Pretty good – WVU has won 18 NCAA championships in rifle, Alaska is second with 10. Army has one… heh.
Jeannet
@satby:
If you haven’t thought of it already, definitely schedule a vet exam for the boomerang dog – sudden changes of behavior can be related to a health problem. I know of one lab that started nipping when people fondled his head – he had a nasty ear infection. My late missed basset hound started being aggressive and was eventually found to have brain tumors. Good luck sorting out the behavior problem!
Corner Stone
@Scapegoat: I don’t believe you’re helping yourself with this response. However, it seems you have a point to make. I confess it seems to me like a very poor sort of point, but that’s why we’re here. Other than the poop pics and making wagers as to when Cole’s next trip to the ER will inevitably come, I mean.
Mom’s do rock. Unfortunately we still have gender stereotypes and a systemic policy infrastructure infused with and informed by a legacy patriarchy. It does not seem strange to me in any way that a support group (or even something smaller like an affinity group) would hold to what it promised its members it would be about. I don’t think it’s easy for men to just accept that sometimes our needs and desires may not be the most important thing going on around us.
I feel for the man who lost his wife, but just as it is not up to black folk to coach me up it is similarly not up to this specific set of women to hold on to his grief. And make no mistake, including him in this mentioned group would be a way to salve his emotional pain at the expense of time, effort and mental resources by the other members.
Could it have been handled better by all parties if it went down as you describe? Almost definitely. But is that their job? Even the pediatrician or staff?
Msb
Many thanks for the link to the article, which I would otherwise have missed. Going to miss having that feminist in the White House, but am looking forward to the incoming feminist. Is it me, or does the comments thread show both how far we’ve come and how far we have still to go?
satby
@Corner Stone: nicely and clearly put, thank you.
satby
@Jeannet: I will. He’s being a perfect boy right now.
Ruckus
@OzarkHillbilly:
Sorry about the med. My neurologist put me on one that put me on what seemed like a bad acid trip after the second dose. Took 2 days to get over it. He said that it was very rare and I should power through it. I said no fucking way. Some people and some drugs just don’t go together, the cure is worse than the disease.
No One You Know
@OzarkHillbilly: I’ve noticed that groups with coeds have very different dynamics than single-gendered groups. Adding only one of the other turns the group into being about them; all the stuff left off the table about gendered expectations goes front and center. IMHE (in my humble experience)
EBT
Re: Psych meds. One dose really? Why even go to the doctor if you aren’t going to do what they say.
Ruckus
@EBT:
Because they aren’t always right. And we all have different reactions to some drugs. Sometimes we even have very rare responses. Does not make the response invalid just because it is rare. When the cure is worse or far worse than the disease then the doctor has to either try a different attack or be replaced if his/her way can not be challenged. IOW docs are not god no matter how much they might think so. Even one with decades of practice. Or stated another way, they don’t call it practice (isn’t practice where you learn how to do something and get better at it?) for nothing.
Mnemosyne
@EBT:
If you have an immediate bad reaction? Of course. If someone had an allergic reaction, would you advise them to keep taking the medication?
One of the reasons there are (at least) a dozen different antidepressants is that the same one doesn’t work for everyone, and you usually have to try several before you find the right one. I was lucky — I had a psychiatrist who was a really good prescriber and put me on Wellbutrin even before we knew I also had ADHD. There are two different main groups of ADHD meds, too, and most people do better on one or the other. They’re not interchangeable.
Mnemosyne
@Ruckus:
I have this weird superstition that if I’m having a lot of side effects from a medication, that means the medication isn’t doing its job and is instead wandering around my body looking for places it can make trouble. I avoid opioids as much as possible because, while they work for a lot of people, they just make me sleepy without seeming to help the pain much at all. Etc.
Ruckus
@Mnemosyne:
My experience is that the pain is still there, maybe not as severe, but mainly you just don’t care that it is. If that is true then it’s not pain relief it’s pain disruption. Not that this is entirely bad, being able to sleep in intense pain is pretty nice. That’s part of how I live with migraines. I medicate and sleep through them, if I can, because if I can’t sleep, not only am I in pain, but my whole next day(s) are screwed, missing the sleep.
Mnemosyne
@Scapegoat:
I will ask a slightly different question than everyone else: how many meetings are you willing to sit in listening to stories about breastfeeding, hemorrhoids, and how many pads each woman bled through the day before before you can talk about the issues you think are important?
And I don’t mean “how many minutes of each meeting”? I mean, how many days of meetings listening to the precise physical details of the aftermath of childbearing are you willing to attend before you are allowed to ask any questions at all?
As others have said, it’s totally valid to ask the pediatricians’ office if there’s a way to set up a mixed-gender or even men-only parenting group and if your group can share resources with the women-only one. But if you are not willing to listen to hours of descriptions of what a woman’s bloody pad looked like the first few days after she gave birth and want to talk about your dad issues instead, then your attendance at the women’s group will actually harm the women in it without helping you. It will make you resent the group and the women in the group resent you, because you’re not actually dealing with the same issues unless you, too, have pushed an infant out of your body and dealt with all of the physical consequences of that.
Is that clear now?
chopper
@TS:
well, i think some men feel the need to tell the world about it because, in america at least, our parenting culture treats men as inherently retarded when it comes to basic parenting. still easier in most every other way to be a dude tho, but lots of moms have really helped to push this idea.
Scapegoat
@Corner Stone: Thanks for the thoughtful response.
Scapegoat
@Scapegoat:
This.
Myself and a number of other new dads are simply hoping to become better parents. The resources available are few and of what is available only our partners may participate physically and virtually. Just wondering if better options are possible. Maybe not.
@TS. Respect. Aside from breastfeeding, we fairly equally split newborn duties and the fatigue is at times indescribable. Your success is encouraging.
For those who have enjoyed piling on a sleep-deprived father who is reaching out (perhaps poorly) for guidance and insights, I thank you, too. Sometimes I forget that bullying and in-group behavior is not the exclusive domain of RWNJs.