Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Republicans are radicals, not conservatives.

If a good thing happens for a bad reason, it’s still a good thing.

GOP baffled that ‘we don’t care if you die’ is not a winning slogan.

“I was told there would be no fact checking.”

Giving up is unforgivable.

Let’s not be the monsters we hate.

I like political parties that aren’t owned by foreign adversaries.

if you can’t see it, then you are useless in the fight to stop it.

Oh FFS you might as well trust a 6-year-old with a flamethrower.

Not rolling over. fuck you, make me.

People really shouldn’t expect the government to help after they watched the GOP drown it in a bathtub.

This fight is for everything.

Fundamental belief of white supremacy: white people are presumed innocent, minorities are presumed guilty.

Impressively dumb. Congratulations.

Lick the third rail, it tastes like chocolate!

You come for women, you’re gonna get your ass kicked.

Is it irresponsible to speculate? It is irresponsible not to.

Republicans: The threats are dire, but my tickets are non-refundable!

We can show the world that autocracy can be defeated.

Tick tock motherfuckers!

We still have time to mess this up!

One lie, alone, tears the fabric of reality.

Rupert, come get your orange boy, you petrified old dinosaur turd.

Too often we hand the biggest microphones to the cynics and the critics who delight in declaring failure.

You are here: Home / Elections / Election 2016 / Open Thread: Ever Green (Party)

Open Thread: Ever Green (Party)

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The NYTimes:

HOUSTON — Minutes before she addressed a boisterous crowd at the Green Party convention here on Saturday, Jill Stein sat in a mirror-walled room backstage, gazing at her reflection with a look of dumbstruck bliss.

“Can you say that again?” Ms. Stein asked.

“You’re at 6 percent in a new poll,” her press director, Meleiza Figueroa, repeated. “Sixteen percent with voters under 30.”…

Even though that forecast appears more than a tad overzealous, the Greens are having a minor-party moment, with Ms. Stein drawing around 4 or 5 percent in other polls. When she ran in 2012, she won less than half of 1 percent of the vote….

Clay Shirky, “There’s No Such Thing As A Protest Vote”

… Democracies alternate the coalition in power, but different systems do so in different ways. In multi-party systems, voters get the satisfaction of voting for smaller, ideologically purer factions — environmental parties, anti-immigrant parties, and so on. The impure compromises come when those factions are forced to form coalitions large enough to govern. The inevitable tradeoffs are part of the governing process, not the electoral process.

In America, by contrast, the coalitions are the parties. Our system also produces alternation of power, and requires compromises among competing interests, but those compromises happen within long-standing caucuses; issues come and go, but the two parties remain. This forces the citizens themselves to get involved in the disappointing tradeoffs, rather than learning about them after the fact. No one gets what they want in a democracy; two-party systems simply rub voters’ noses in that fact…

The NYTimes:

… At the Green convention here at the University of Houston, Ms. Stein did not wait long to appeal to her new followers. “I want to recognize the people coming out of the Bernie Sanders campaign who helped launch a national movement and refused to let that movement die in the Democratic Party,” said Ms. Stein, who formally accepted her party’s nomination alongside her running mate, Ajamu Baraka, on Saturday. The crowd, in turn, chanted, “Jill, not Hill!”…

But surveys suggest the vast majority of Sanders supporters, as many as nine in 10, intend to vote for Hillary Clinton. And many of those who continue to rebuff her “were not truly Democrats to begin with,” said Patrick Murray, director of the Polling Institute at Monmouth University. “These were third-party voters who got pulled to the Democrats by Bernie,” Mr. Murray said. “Now they’re drifting back Green.”…

Shirky, again:

… Throwing away your vote on a message no one will hear, and which will change no outcome, is sometimes presented as ‘voting your conscience’, but that’s got it exactly backwards; your conscience is what keeps you from doing things that feel good to you but hurt other people. Citizens who vote for third-party candidates, write-in candidates, or nobody aren’t voting their conscience, they are voting their ego, unable to accept that a system they find personally disheartening actually applies to them…

The NYTimes:

… Donald J. Trump, the Republican nominee, has even championed the Green Party “because I figure anyone voting for Stein is going to be for Hillary,” he said recently in Toledo, Ohio.

For the Greens, the spoiler concept is sensitive territory. “We don’t want to be a threat; we want to be a force for good,” said Julie George-Carlson, 58, a longtime Green activist who is running for secretary of state of Missouri. To this day, Ms. George-Carlson said, neighbors accost her in the grocery store, blaming her for Mr. Bush’s victory in 2000. Still, she has no regrets.

“I vote for my favorite candidate,” she said. “How dare anyone tell me to do otherwise.”…

… None of this creates an obligation to vote, or to vote for one of the two viable candidates. It is, famously, a free country, and you can vote for anyone you like, or for no one. But if you do, don’t kid yourself — and certainly don’t try to kid anyone else — that you are creating some kind of positive political change. Noisily opting out as a way of demonstrating your pique is an understandable human act. It’s just not a political act. It’s an elaborate way of making the rest of us do the work of deciding.

The NYTimes:

… Given the daunting odds against Ms. Stein winning the presidency, the Green Party’s biggest practical objective this election may be securing enough support to guarantee greater ballot access in future races.

But for many Green devotees, the party can triumph, even in defeat, as a gadfly to the left. “We’re making progress,” Ms. Stein said in an interview, “whether we win office or simply win the day by pushing forward a new agenda.”

Soon she waded into a cheering crowd, both hands in peace signs, eager to convince any doubters that either scenario remains possible.

Useful innocents, or useful idiots?

Reader Interactions

320Comments

  3. 3.

    Baud

    A good description of the libertarians and the Greens.

    Never forget, libertarians are crazy. See what Johnson/Weld want to do and wonder why anyone who supported Bernie would support them.

  4. 4.

    Miss Bianca

    The impure compromises come when those factions are forced to form coalitions large enough to govern. The inevitable tradeoffs are part of the governing process, not the electoral process.

    In America, by contrast, the coalitions are the parties.

    I think that’s the most succinct and elegant summation of the differences between a parliamentary electoral system and our…whatever you call it…electoral system.

  5. 5.

    Lit3Bolt

    Hey guys, I’m running for President too. Putin loves me! What better cred do you need? Mark all donations in a check to “Cash,” please.

  7. 7.

    Fair Economist

    @debbie: Stein has explicitly said she’ll rule by decree, i.e., as a dictator. Congress and the courts will be ignored.

  8. 8.

    hovercraft

    At watchdog journalism training, @Jdharden warns that data is not impartial. “Spreadsheets have agendas,” he says conspiratorially.

    — Andrew Kragie (@AndrewKragie) August 5, 2016

    Wow, just wow.
    What’s next, do numbers have an agenda?

  12. 12.

    Snarki, child of Loki

    @Fair Economist: “Stein has explicitly said she’ll rule by decree”

    Well at least she’s being frank. In fact, we should call her “Frank Stein”.

  13. 13.

    hovercraft

    @Lit3Bolt: We already have a candidate here at Balloon Juice, he is @Baud: . I an however setting up a Superpac for him, I would appreciate it if you and all other BJers could send donations to @hovercraft. These funds will be used to launch a stealth, under the radar effort in all the battleground states. The campaign would like to raise at least 1 million dollars, so please give early and often.

  14. 14.

    Ruckus

    @redshirt:
    Not sure about that vanity campaign thing. She’s a true believer in her own bullshit. She’s been doing this for a while and getting nowhere. She now is polling 8-10 times higher than anything she’s done before. And she isn’t any crazier/deluded now than she’s ever been. I think she believes she has a shot. Because she is crazy/deluded.

  15. 15.

    hovercraft

    @redshirt:
    I know, the line about her sitting in front of the mirror all aglow, gives the game away. I just watched her on msnbc, the woman is delusional.

  17. 17.

    J R in WV

    @Baud:

    And that 7, what about that??? Standing right between 6 and 8, odd man in the middle… just WOW, that’s all.

  18. 18.

    Chris

    @Baud:

    My favorite definition of libertarians might come from this Scalzi post. (Sadly, no Greens, but his paragraph-long definitions of liberals and conservatives are worth a read too. Although, remember also that this post is fourteen years old).

    The highlights, in re libertarians:

    “Unusually smug for a political philosophy that’s never gotten anyone elected for anything above the local water board.”

    “Don’t seem to understand why most people aren’t at all keen to trade in even the minimal safety net the US provides for 55-gallon barrels of beans and rice, a crossbow and a first-aid kit in the basement.”

    “Libertarians blog with a frequency that makes one wonder if they’re actually employed somewhere or if they have loved ones who miss them.”

    “Libertarianism the official political system of science fiction authors, which explains why science fiction is in such a rut these days.”

    “Easily offended; Libertarians most likely to respond to this column.”

    ETA: oh, who am I kidding. The best definition of “libertarian” is still “what conservatives call themselves when they’re trying to get laid.”

  19. 19.

    Hal

    I saw a Jill Stein ad on msnbc last week. Two second mention of Trump, then it was all Hillary. Stein’s political existence is entirely based on seeing Hillary lose. That’s it. If that means Trump wins, then so be it. I find here amazingly self centered, politically speaking, though let me emphasize she has every right to run for President. Hopefully people will ignore her in November like they did last time.

  21. 21.

    debbie

    @Baud:

    No way will any of my three Republican brothers ever vote for Clinton. One’s sticking with Trump (“he’s an outsider”); one’s supporting Johnson; and the third will either not vote or (unlikely) vote for Johnson.

  24. 24.

    redshirt

    @Ruckus: Oh, I’m sure she believes her own motivation. But do you think she thinks she can ever win? If so, she’s more deluded than the skewed polls Repukes.

  27. 27.

    Chris

    And the news of the day: my wingnut, fundamentalist, National-Review-reading, Benghazigate-believing, refugee-terrified, heavily bigoted uncle, the one that I use as my personal wingnut barometer and have brought up here a few times when I need to vent but still must preserve decorum for the sake of family reunions… apparently will not be voting Trump and may even be voting Hillary.

    (He claims he won’t be voting Trump, which I’m not sure I actually believe; according to relatives, he’s even Hillary-curious, which strains credulity to its breaking point. The plural of anecdote is not data, but still. I just had a “when you’ve lost Walter Cronkite…” moment. Suffice it to say that if Trump can’t take his vote for granted… his chances for election aren’t looking too good).

  28. 28.

    Schlemazel

    1929 – Ruth Fisher Loses Leadership Position in German Communist Party

    Ruth Fischer lost her struggle to keep the German Communist Party from becoming totally subservient to Joseph Stalin. The Communists went on to aid Hitler and the Nazis in their efforts to destroy the Weimar Republic. The Communist Party leadership believed that Hitler could not possibly be successful in ruling Germany and that they would be the beneficiaries of his failure. Their slogan became “Nach Hitler Uns” (After Hitler Us).

    Outside magazine, August 2000:

    If California tips Green enough, Bush could win the state and the whole damn election. Which, Nader confided to Outside in June, wouldn’t be so bad. When asked if someone put a gun to his head and told him to vote for either Gore or Bush, which he would choose, Nader answered without hesitation: “Bush.” Not that he actually thinks the man he calls “Bush Inc.” deserves to be elected: “He’ll do whatever industry wants done.” [But] The rumpled crusader clearly prefers to sink his righteous teeth into Al Gore, … [and] concludes with the sotto voce realpolitik of a ward heeler: “If you want the parties to diverge from one another, have Bush win.”

  32. 32.

    Chris

    @debbie:

    Hey, that’s two out of three Republicans that won’t be voting Republican this November. Viewed in that light, I’d say that’s a win.

  36. 36.

    Keith P.

    I missed the part where Ralph Nader became a big policy leader after spoiling the 2000 election.

  37. 37.

    Davis X. Machina

    @hovercraft: Empiricism is an agenda and one that must be stopped. Left, and right.

    Left, you’ve got this yo-yo.
    Right — the God-botherers who believe in salvation through faith, not owrks.

  38. 38.

    Anne Laurie

    @Fair Economist:

    Stein has explicitly said she’ll rule by decree, i.e., as a dictator. Congress and the courts will be ignored.

    But she’ll do it with love! And we’ll return that love!

    Jill Stein as Galadriel: All shall love me and despair!

  40. 40.

    bystander

    @Schlemazel:

    “If you want the parties to diverge from one another, have Bush win.”

    Nader can tick that one off his bucket list.

    Jill Stein comes off as a total kook. I wish they’d invite her to the debate. Trump would never resist that kind of bait.

    The only Trump lawn sign I’ve seen here in our neighborhood in the Poconos is in front of the only house with a Confederate flag proudly painted on its side. Overlooking the site of the Battle of Minisink in Sullivan County, NY. Lovely.

  41. 41.

    Origuy

    Dianne Feinstein was up for reelection in 2012. With California’s jungle primary spreading the vote among 16 or so candidates, there was no way she wasn’t going to go to the general election. I would have voted for a Green candidate just as a protest, but the party didn’t field any for Senate. Focusing only on the Presidential election is no way to build a party that can actually run a government.

  43. 43.

    Schlemazel

    @Keith P.:
    “I can’t say I’ve been missing it, Bob.”

    Yeah, his supposed fracture that would lead to a much more liberal Dem Party & nation had pretty much the opposite impact.

  45. 45.

    gene108

    @Schlemazel:

    Nader was not wrong. Bush, Jr’s reign of error did drive the parties apart.

    But that does not seem to be particularly beneficial to those other than the rich.

  46. 46.

    Helen

    So remember that I told you on Thursday that I listed my apt? Well as of this afternoon I have three full price offers. The broker said we should not even bother with counter offers. She is going to tell them all what’s what and ask them for their best offer. I cannot believe how easy this has been.

  48. 48.

    Brachiator

    This forces the citizens themselves to get involved in the disappointing tradeoffs, rather than learning about them after the fact. No one gets what they want in a democracy; two-party systems simply rub voters’ noses in that fact…

    This is interesting, but incomplete, maybe totally wrong. Some people like parliamentary systems because it maybe encourages more participation. It’s easier for people to find a party that reflects their values.

    But you also get the vanity of small parties which become hardliners, never compromising with other members, or re-examining their values.

    And when a coalition is necessary to govern, you can get absurd stagnation, where it takes months to form a government. Or you get the farce which occurred in the UK when the Lib Dems formed a coalition with the Conservatives and quickly ceased being relevant, and is now barely struggling to survive.

    Or you get a situation as sometimes happens in Israel, where a minority party gets concessions that hurt the larger common good.

  50. 50.

    Emma

    @Origuy:

    Focusing only on the Presidential election is no way to build a party that can actually run a government.

    My own theory is that they don’t really want to do that. They want some sort of emotional validation. I have the feeling that if they ever caught the Presidency it’d be like the dog that caught the car.

  53. 53.

    Schlemazel

    @Origuy:
    That is also a way to identify these as ego driven runs. If the Greens worked hard in 40 or 50 Congressional districts they might elect 20-30 Congressmen. If they chose correctly hat would give them the power to decide which party had the majority & the ability to demand concessions. But that is hard work & required thousands of people working hard for 6 months to a year at least. Followed by members actually doing the dull work of being a Congressman. Add to that the fact they would not make it the whole way the first time they try and you start to see they will never change the debate and never field the sort of resources needed to wield real power.

    Oh, and of course the first time they compromise to get something that is not the whole thing they will be dirty rotten sellouts.

  55. 55.

    Patricia Kayden

    @Hal: The fact that Secretary Clinton is her enemy versus Trump says it all about Stein. I have nothing to say to her supporters given the dire consequences of a potential Trump presidency, which should be obvious to anyone watching how he has run his campaign. The man is scary and must be stopped at all costs. The only way to stop him is to vote for Secretary Clinton.

    Haven’t checked, but I assume Stein isn’t on all state ballots anyways. Not understanding her appeal.

  57. 57.

    elm

    @Patricia Kayden:

    The fact that Secretary Clinton is her enemy versus Trump says it all about Stein.

    To be scrupulously fair, her willingness to appear with Putin says the rest.

  58. 58.

    SFAW

    @Keith P.:

    I missed the part where Ralph Nader became a big policy leader after spoiling the 2000 election.

    He was operating the Shadow Government.

    But it’s clear that he was absolutely right — especially the part where he opined that Bush would make things so bad, that it would usher in a wave of liberalism that would last a generation. Of course, the “generation” he was referring to was that of a mayfly, but still …

  59. 59.

    redshirt

    @SFAW: Actually it may be starting now. 8 years of Obama followed by 8 years of Clinton would shift the political balance in this country greatly, especially if we lock in the Supreme Court and change redistricting in 2020.

  61. 61.

    Brachiator

    @Baud:

    …I wish there was a poll showing the racial makeup of the Greens.

    I am not sure that this will tell you much. How would you characterize the position of black activist Ajamu Baraka, the Green Party VP candidate.

    In January 2015, Baraka described the vigil for the victims of the Charlie Hebdo shooting as a “white power march” and Je suis Charlie as an “arrogant rallying cry for white supremacy” because of France’s colonial history, the caricature at issue, French support for American policy in Syria and Libya, and the disproportionate interest in this particular act of war. Later he would write an article titled “No ‘Je Suis Charleston’?”.

  62. 62.

    SFAW

    @Patricia Kayden:

    Haven’t checked, but I assume Stein isn’t on all state ballots anyways.

    She’ll get the EVs from states where she’s not on the ballot “by acclamation.” Isn’t that how it works?

  64. 64.

    Fair Economist

    @Schlemazel: I saw an article where somebody asked her how she’d get her platform enacted when Congress wasn’t going to approve it and she said she’d just issue executive orders. Trying to find a reference but I can’t seem to get through a number of feverish conspiracy theories (one of which is apparently Ben Stein whining about Obama’s executive orders). Still looking.

  65. 65.

    redshirt

    @Helen: Can you explain how this works? I thought apartments were by definition rented; condos are like apartments in some ways, but owned. What’s a co-op?

  66. 66.

    Schlemazel

    @gene108:
    Sorry, I am not seeing it. Kerry was not to the left of Gore. Obama is not to the left of Gore. Clinton is not to the left of Obama. If the parties are drifting apart it is not because the Dems are becoming more liberal but that the GOP has been on a 40 year run to insanity.

  68. 68.

    Davis X. Machina

    @Schlemazel: They’d have to raise approximately half-a-million dollars per seat, to do that, at a minimum. Which would involve all kinds of ‘corruption’.

  69. 69.

    TopClimber

    Clay Shirky, as quoted here, perhaps does not take into account the outsize influence of the electoral college in pushing us toward a two-party, two coalition model on the NATIONAL stage. You can’t win states with 10% of the popular vote.

    At the state and local level, third party candidates can sometimes win on their own, or in parliamentary type coalition with mainstream parties (see Bernie Sanders). Concentrated in a few places, 10% can provide substantial municipal victories. Eventually, you can follow the path of the original Progressive Party, which in fact did win many electoral votes in the early 1900s and pushed their agenda with great effect.

    Would that the Greens would direct more effort to such local efforts, where specific environmental issues could provide them with real support and might in fact provide a bridge between ecologically minded Dems and their scarcer but not extinct cousins among the GOP.

    In the meantime, Green Presidential and Congressional attempts will be pathetic (thank God this year) until they show a track record of victories at the grass roots level.

  70. 70.

    redshirt

    @Major Major Major Major: I meant in regards Nader’s prediction. Conservatism did see to be on the rise in America with the election of W, and everything was in place to lock that down for a generation, but they blew it because they suck. And now we have clear signs of a descendant Republican party and a Democratic party on the verge of locking up the SC for 20 years and own the WH for another 8 on top of the current 8.

    The trend has changed pretty dramatically, even if the results are not what we’d hope for, yet.

  72. 72.

    SFAW

    @redshirt:

    Yeah, that demographic shift was pretty much Ralph’s baby.

    As much as I like Obama, and will miss him, I don’t consider him a liberal. (I think, even with a Dem House and 60 in the Senate, I don’t think he’d implement a spate of liberal policies. Of course, I wish we had the opportunity for me to be proved worng.)

    I don’t yet know whether Hillary will govern from the left, center-left, or center. (Assuming she even has that chance, which is not a good assumption, given ZEGS and The Turtle.)

  73. 73.

    RandomMonster

    @gene108:

    Nader was not wrong. Bush, Jr’s reign of error did drive the parties apart.

    But that does not seem to be particularly beneficial to those other than the rich.

    And certainly not to several hundred thousand Iraqis who didn’t survive to see the glorious revolution.

  74. 74.

    Suzanne

    @Emma: Agreed 100%. Which is why I will never vote for them, even though I support much of their platform. They don’t want to engage in the real work of governance. This is why, for all of her many real faults, I think HRC will be an effective leader and is a good choice for progressives.

  75. 75.

    Mary G

    @Chris: Love Scalzi, but haven’t been reading long enough to get to that post from 2002, thanks!

    @redshirt: I’m assuming that it’s an apartment that has been converted into a coop or condo.

    @Helen: Congrats! Where do you live that has such a hot market?

    Jill Stein’s picture should be in the dictionary under “useful idiot,” Anyone who hangs out with Putin, Assange, and General Flynn, as Adam illustrated, is toxic to democracy.

  76. 76.

    grandpa john

    @redshirt: some things never change
    which can explain a lot of what we see in politics

    “There are more fools than knaves in the world, else the knaves would not have enough to live upon.”
    ―Samuel Butler (poet)

  78. 78.

    Schlemazel

    @Davis X. Machina:
    All they would need would be to get $27.00 from 185,500 people and they would have $5MM. But that would take effort. Lots of calling & lots of begging.

  79. 79.

    SFAW

    @redshirt:

    And now we have clear signs of a descendant Republican party and a Democratic party on the verge of locking up the SC for 20 years and own the WH for another 8 on top of the current 8.

    But a large part of that has been due to demographics. Considering that Nader made no mention of that, but only that Bush blah-blah-blah, I hardly think it proves him correct. And, by the way, Bush was plenty disasterful in time for Kerry, and yet he won anyway.

    And, frankly, had Fat Nino not kicked the bucket, we might be talking differently about the future.

  80. 80.

    PsiFighter37

    Jill Stein is about as qualified to be president as Donald Trump is. She has never been a public servant of any kind outside of being on town council (I believe). She can pound sand if she’d like, but anyone who votes for her is an idiot.

  81. 81.

    Helen

    @redshirt: A co-op is similar to a condo in that you own your apt. Co-ops are by far more popular in NYC than condos. The difference is really in how you legally own your property. In a condo you actually own your four walls. In a co-op you own shares – actual stock – in a corporation made up of all the owners (shareholders). Your “dividends” for being a shareholder is the right to live in the apt for costs only. No one makes a profit on operating costs. This is a real basic definition, but for all practical purposes it’s just a legal distinction.

    ETA: If it’s the word “apartment” that threw you, in NYC apartment just means “not a house” Condos, co-ops and rentals are all called apartments.

  82. 82.

    BR

    @Suzanne:

    The funny thing is that Stein doesn’t even really have a platform (at least from what I can tell) — just a bunch of vague platitudes. She really is going for the ego-satisfying feel-good lefty vote.

  85. 85.

    PsiFighter37

    @BR: Make angry old white hippies great again!

    That really seems to be all she is about in a nutshell.

  86. 86.

    JPL

    The purpose of the Green Party, is to take away votes for dems. Stein doesn’t care if she is being used, because it’s for the greater good.
    The danger this year is that Trump is bat shit-insane.

  90. 90.

    Schlemazel

    @SFAW:
    We saw 2 years of Dems controlling both chambers & the WH and ACA was the result. Sure, it was a big win but it is a bill with a lot of problems (many laid in there by the GOP) that was a painful and ugly process (again, thanks to the GOP). I think that is a glimpse that tells us neither Obama nor the Dems are as liberal as I would like. They are a great leap forward, no complaints there but they are hardly within sight of Naderesque liberalism.

  91. 91.

    NoraLenderbee

    Can anyone point me to some links or info showing that the Greens are funded by the GOP? I’d like to show them to my spouse. He is from Europe, where the Greens are a functioning party, and I don’t think he understands why their Presidential runs in the US are bullshit.
    Thanks!

  92. 92.

    BBA

    @Helen: The main difference between a co-op and a condo is that a co-op board can block you from buying the apartment if they don’t like you. A condo board usually has no control over who moves in.

  94. 94.

    Brachiator

    @TopClimber:

    Eventually, you can follow the path of the original Progressive Party, which in fact did win many electoral votes in the early 1900s and pushed their agenda with great effect.

    It was a tough road, and the Progressive Party has rarely done well in elections.

    .In the 1912 presidential election, Roosevelt’s Progressive Party
    received 88 electoral votes, compared to 435 for Wilson and 8 for Taft. This was nonetheless the best showing by any third party since the modern two-party system was established in 1864. Roosevelt was the only third-party candidate to outpoll a candidate of an established party….

    In addition to Roosevelt’s presidential campaign, hundreds of other candidates sought office as Progressives in 1912. Twenty-one ran for governor. Over 200 ran for U.S. Representative….

    Nine Progressives were elected to the House; none won governorships. Only about 250 won local elections.

  95. 95.

    Helen

    @Mary G: I’m in Forest Hills, NY. 20 minutes outside of Manhattan on 4 subway lines, one commuter train line, and many bus routes. It’s one of the places in the outer boroughs where professionals live who can’t afford (or aren’t all snobby about ;) ) Manhattan but want immediate access.

  97. 97.

    Mary G

    @Helen: Is it easy to get a bank loan for a coop in NYC? Here in California it’s nearly impossible so the value is a lot lower as you pretty much have to pay all cash.

  99. 99.

    Helen

    @BBA: Yes. That’s a big thing too. Fortunately in the outer boroughs it’s rarely a concern. Only in Manhattan do boards get all snotty. If you are qualified, a Queens board will always approve you.

  102. 102.

    Nom de Plume

    Well, the Greens helped give us George W. Bush, and if they help deliver Donald Trump they will complete their task of destroying the country. Many years ago I saw the film Red Dawn, and laughed at the opening titles:

    Green Party gains control of West German Parliament. Demands withdrawal of nuclear weapons from European soil… Mexico plunged into revolution… NATO dissolves. United States stands alone.

    Now I’m wondering just how prophetic that was, although obviously for very different reasons than what the filmmakers were implying.

    Adding: I should state for the record that I found Red Dawn to be a very silly film.

  103. 103.

    Fair Economist

    @redshirt:

    Conservatism did see to be on the rise in America with the election of W, and everything was in place to lock that down for a generation, but they blew it because they suck.

    This was the key, though. They had to suck, and *really badly* to mess up. If W’s daddy issues and Cheney’s corruption had not got them into the cluster**** of Iraq Nader’s actions would have put us into a permanent Republican majority situation, backed up by shameless voter suppression if they’d needed it.

  104. 104.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    @SFAW: I know who ZEGS is, but wtf is ZEGS?

    ETA: I’m pretty sure ‘GS’ is Granny Starver.

  105. 105.

    Helen

    @Mary G: Yes. Same as a condo or private house. The only caveat is that the bank will look at the co-ops financials. If the co-op has bad financials then a bank will not loan to an individual regardless of the individual’s credit worthiness.

  106. 106.

    one_particular_harbour, fka Botsplainer

    @redshirt:

    I’ve had a good laugh at the expense of the Steiniac on my Facebook feed. It isn’t just me that’s mocking and laughing at him – bunches are talking about Putin and hitting him hard on contradiction heightening. He doesn’t know how to react.

  107. 107.

    Mary G

    @Davebo: Probably to start a bidding war, which will, hopefully for Helen, happen. People will go a lot higher when they get emotionally invested in a place and don’t want to lose it.

  112. 112.

    lamh36

    I’m using the Olympics as my official “stay-cation” from politics…so I’m literally watching some events, I’ve NEVER had interest in, like Women’s Rugby…Cycling…etc.

    No though it’s time for women’s gymnastics, tonight is the qualifiying round for the All-Around competition. Thanks to NBCs schedule delay, I already know the results of who qualifies…so no need to stress about my favs…

    NBC knows ALOT of folks watch Women’s gymnastics and Swimming…so they are leading with Diving…

    Luckily I like the sport or I’d be bitching.

  113. 113.

    Helen

    @Davebo: She showed me the comps and it seemed right and, quite frankly, I was thrilled with it. But, yeah, my first thought when she called me after only 1 day with the first offer was that she under-priced it. So I told her flat out that I was going to wait to see if we could get a bidding war started. The next day she had two more offers at full price.

  114. 114.

    Matt McIrvin

    @redshirt: Except that Nader himself would probably regard it as a failed prediction, because as far as he and Greens are concerned, this wave of liberalism is nothing and they’d rather sabotage it again.

  115. 115.

    one_particular_harbour, fka Botsplainer

    @redshirt:

    Some guy was soliciting signatures in front of my main courthouse to put Stein on the Kentucky ballot in 2012.

    I invited him to go fuck himself – he seemed a little put out by that.

  117. 117.

    AnotherBruce

    “I vote for my favorite candidate,” she said. “How dare anyone tell me to do otherwise.”…

    Because it’s not about you and your favorite candidate. Check your ego at the door. It’s about the United States of America and who can best do the job.

    This woman may be an adult, but she sounds like she hasn’t passed adolescence yet.

  119. 119.

    Fair Economist

    @Schlemazel: Ok, here’s something of a link:

    right now you’ve got 43 million people who are locked in labor—low-wage, lousy jobs, two and three of them, who have basically been excommunicated. They don’t have time to participate in society. But you liberate them from debt—which we can do by, basically, executive action—so you have liberated a massive army for pushing on social and racial and climate justice.

    So, cancel private debts for 43 million people by executive order.

    Bill Black, who wrote [“The Best Way to Rob a Bank Is to Own One”], he actually has a whole plan, having been a Wall Street regulator himself—he has basically the plan for how the president can actually do this by executive order. And essentially, you can create these minimum capital requirements and enforce them, so the banks are over and done with. We nationalize them, create national banks, whatever, if they’re not willing to downsize.

    So, blow over all the current banking legislation, also by executive order (haven’t looked at his “plan” but Bill Black has more than a few screws loose.)

    If you read through the interview, it’s clear she doesn’t give a flip about Congress’ authority to spend money. She says she could get a couple trillion from quantitative easing. Well, first of all, that’s the Federal Reserve’s prerogative and any appointees she’d make would have to be confirmed by the Senate. Second, it doesn’t matter how much money the Fed can get via monetization because Congress still has to authorize spending it. But not in Jill Stein’s world.

  120. 120.

    rikyrah

    Bruce Bartlett
    ‏@BruceBartlett
    The importance of Ohio Gov John Kasich’s opposition to Trump is that it means election in Ohio will be honest. Trump’s only hope is fraud.

  121. 121.

    one_particular_harbour, fka Botsplainer

    @AnotherBruce:

    It is a job for which two serious potential hires have submitted applications. Of the other unlikely potential hires, one has run a smallish subdivision of a company while maintaining an idiosyncratic management philosophy that isn’t a good fit for the entity, and the other has been a committee member at the lowest levels of management for another company.

  128. 128.

    Jeffro

    @Baud: Now thatwas a great take on libertarians and greens!

    Libertarians are nuts but I mostly just find them to be childish and selfish. No one is thrilled about paying taxes, we get it… But that doesn’t make it theft, not in a democracy it isn’t.

  132. 132.

    mike in dc

    This platform IS basically meeting the progressive left more than halfway, but it’s not going to shift any of these purist idiots into the D column. Hopefully Clinton will crush Trump electorally and the Greens will slip back down to sub-5% territory by election day.

  133. 133.

    SFAW

    @Schlemazel:

    I can’t tell if you’re agreeing or disagreeing with me, but seems like you’re agreeing.

    Be that as it may: the Dems only had both Chambers for a little over six months: Al Franken was not declared the winner until 7/9/09, and Scott Brown won on 1/19/10. The time between was how long the Dem’s were filibuster proof. (No thanks to Ben Nightdouche Nelson, of course.)

  134. 134.

    Mandalay

    @Hal:

    Two second mention of Trump, then it was all Hillary. Stein’s political existence is entirely based on seeing Hillary lose.

    Oh FFS. She is trying to change voters’ minds and get their votes, so obviously attacking Clinton is a better way of garnering votes than attacking Trump.

    You don’t have to like or admire her, but there’s no need to ascribe absurd motives. (Actually it’s far more the case that Clinton’s political existence is entirely based on seeing Trump lose, but it’s not even worthy of comment.)

  137. 137.

    henqiguai

    @SFAW(#72):

    As much as I like Obama, and will miss him, I don’t consider him a liberal.

    Then define what you consider ‘Liberal’. Otherwise it just seems you’re looking for unicorns and sparkle ponies.

  138. 138.

    SFAW

    @mike in dc:

    Hopefully Clinton will crush Trump electorally and the Greens will slip back down to sub-5% territory by election day.

    As long as we can hear the lamentation of Jill Stein.

  141. 141.

    one_particular_harbour, fka Botsplainer

    @Mandalay:

    Nah – at this point, it is clear that Our Progressive Betters aim to crush liberalism, which is why I kick hippies and purity progressives in the teeth as often as I can.

    Thing is, it’s hard to scrub the scent of patchouli out of my shoes.

  144. 144.

    one_particular_harbour, fka Botsplainer

    @Patricia Kayden:

    This one was asking if people were registered democrats and if they’d like another progressive choice on the ballot.

  148. 148.

    SFAW

    @henqiguai:

    GMAFB. I’m not talking about what can reasonably be achieved politically, I’m talking about where various policies fall on the liberal/conservative continuum. And, no, I’m not going to spend a lot of time listing things for you.

    But Timmy Geithner as his first choice for Treasury is not exactly liberal. Arne Duncan is not exactly liberal. ACA — for all the great things it has done — is still a Heritage Foundation (I think) plan — which makes it seem liberal compared to the psychos running today’s Congress and Rethug Partei, but not in the “real” (so to speak) world.

  149. 149.

    ? Martin

    Why governing competence is important.

    But this secret group of fewer than 10 people – formed in April 2014 in North Dakota, Texas, and Michigan – discovered that getting a license and then ordering enough materials to make a “dirty bomb” was strikingly simple in one of their three tries. Sellers were preparing shipments that together were enough to poison a city center when the operation was shut down.

    There’s probably more than a little IT incompetence in here given how paper-based the process is, but there’s also the usual antigovernment paranoia that prevents tracking databases from being established.

  150. 150.

    SFAW

    @Schlemazel:
    Most people forget about Al’s election delay. Even more people forget about Scotty — which these days, is not a bad thing.

  151. 151.

    Jeffro

    @Schlemazel: she already has a lot on her plate but I sure hope Hillary is prepared to debate these two additional clowns .

    She could do herself a lot of good by getting Sanders to give speeches and cut a few ads in which he says “between the greens or Hillary I would go with Hillary – we can’t let Trump in”

  155. 155.

    lamh36

    Alright…time for USA Women’s Gymnastics…even knowing the outcome of the qualifying round…still excited!

    Damn…there is also a limit on the number of members from each team on each individual apparatus…damn…only 2

  156. 156.

    Jeffro

    @Mandalay: hal’s right and you’re wrong here. Taking votes from Clinton is what Stein’s all about.

    Oh, and she’s an absolute nut – just as unfit for the office as Trump is.

  158. 158.

    MJS

    @Mandalay: Well, her motive can’t be to win the presidency, because only a fool would think that’s possible. So then you have to look at how she spends her time. From the Democratic National Convention on, it’s been spent attacking Clinton. Yeah, real tough to ascertain a motive.

  162. 162.

    NoraLenderbee

    @BR: Thanks for the link. I’m hoping to find something about the specific accusation that the GOP has funded the Greens.

    @Princess: That’s bizarre!

  164. 164.

    schrodinger's cat

    Why do you guys think that having elebenty parties is a good thing. It isn’t. See Israel and India, coalitions with disparate parties can enable the fringe too. There is no panacea.

  172. 172.

    ? Martin

    @Major Major Major Major: Primaries are absolutely toxic. We’re fucked until we eliminate the binary nature of our politics. And the long history isn’t a defense, this is a problem that has gotten much worse since the rise of the internet.

  173. 173.

    germy

    @Princess:

    Stein is the left’s Ben Carson…

    She sort of strikes me as the type of doctor who would rush into the exam room, not really listen to what I had to say, look past me while I was speaking, and then suggest a long list of vitamins I should take, and then rush out again to her next patient (who has been waiting over an hour)

  174. 174.

    Patricia Kayden

    @Chris: Fascinating. Will be interesting to see what percentage of Republicans reject Trump. I suppose the attack on a Gold Star family was a bridge too far, even for strong Rightwingers.

  182. 182.

    Brachiator

    @schrodinger’s cat:

    Why do you guys think that having elebenty parties is a good thing. It isn’t. See Israel and India, coalitions with disparate parties can enable the fringe too. There is no panacea.

    Some Americans see this as a way to get Greens and Progressives elected. They tend to ignore the sticky details of putting together effective and cooperative coalitions.

  184. 184.

    one_particular_harbour, fka Botsplainer

    @? Martin:

    Speaking of IT and antigovernment paranoia, how’s about a little chat about how to ferret out the undoubted coordination between the RUssian FSB and their American surrogates, both knowing and unknowing, now that we flip the fuck out over document retention and metadata scraping?

  185. 185.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym

    @Major Major Major Major:

    She wants to use QE as a slush fund? WOW.

    I guess. Apparently, she doesn’t understand that the flow of cash with quantitative easing goes the other way: the Fed gives money to an entity (those entities have been banks, but in theory could be just about anything) in exchange for bonds that that entity is holding.

  186. 186.

    Suzanne

    @Mike E: I am so excited to watch Biles and Douglas and the rest of the gymnastics. I did gymnastics as a kid, and I quit after doing the vault one time. One. I just couldn’t run really fast and jump headfirst at an immovable object. I love watching other Olympic sports, but none inspires the same awe as gymnastics for me.

  188. 188.

    JMG

    Every Summer Olympic year, Stein runs for President. Every Winter Olympic year, she runs for Governor of Massachusetts. She has never held elective office in the town of Lexington, where both she and I reside. She is a crackpot, full stop (sweet in person, though). Anyone who votes for her is either a crackpot, fool, or both.

  189. 189.

    raven

    @Suzanne: My high school in the Chicago burbs was really big in boys gymnastics. My best buddy went to ASU on a scholarship in rings and high bar. Title nine essentially killed men’s gymnastics at the college level. Unintended consequences I guess.

  191. 191.

    raven

    @JMG: Well, since the summer Olympics are always the same year as the US Presidential that sort of makes sense.

  192. 192.

    Bess

    @Schlemazel:

    neither Obama nor the Dems are as liberal as I would like

    Do you confuse “are as liberal” with “have the ability to make change”?

    How can you possibly think Democrats and Obama not liberal? Do you have some sort of personal definition of “liberal” which goes past equal rights for all and providing a helping hand to those who need one?

    Does your special definition involve burning down the world so that a more perfect one arises from the ashes?

  193. 193.

    henqiguai

    @germy(#175):

    when I don’t understand abbreviations I do a quick google search.

    Yeah, I generally do, as well. But operating on short sleep and too tired to go to bed right now so my responsiveness is shaky. And not all those searches come up with credible suggestions; coupled with my own generally too literal interpretation of things, thought I’d just ask.

  194. 194.

    lamh36

    Consequence of Olympic fame…you can become a “brand” and if you don’t watch it…it’s time for another go and you realize you haven’t been hitting that grind as much as you should have been…And you’re playing catch up…

    Feels like some of the US athletes from the past year(s) are experiencing that…

  195. 195.

    Temporarily Max McGee (Soon Enough to Be Andy K Again)

    Baud: More vanity than all of the other candidates, combined…And also the world’s third largest source of bauxite!

  196. 196.

    burnspbesq

    @hovercraft:

    do numbers have an agenda?

    Hell yes. Arithmetic was an integral part of the eebil Wasserman-Schultz plot to deny Saint Bernard the nomination he so clearly was entitled to.

  198. 198.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym

    @raven:

    Title nine essentially killed men’s gymnastics at the college level.

    No, it didn’t. I really hate this line of argument. Title IX did not kill any men’s sports. What killed them was the football barons insisting that they need 85 scholarships, a dozen assistant coaches, and training facilities that can be nicknamed “the Taj Mahal.” If football were treated like other sports, in which (other than basketball) you get fewer scholarships than a full roster and fewer assistant coaches than you really need (in hockey, the goalie coaches are volunteers), then none of the men’s sports would have faced the chopping block.

  200. 200.

    raven

    @lamh36: I didn’t realize the swim relay teams could use different swimmers in the pre-lim’s and finals. Two Georgia swimmers swam the 4×100 qualifier but not the final. The get Silver medals so I guess it’s cool.

  201. 201.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Baud: Especially when you consider the extra day in February. Ask yourself why February gets that extra day. It makes you think, doesn’t it?

  204. 204.

    NoraLenderbee

    @BR:

    How about the fact that Jill Stein has been collaborating with Fox News. She was credentialed by them to attend the DNC.

    Oh, that’s a tasty tidbit!

  206. 206.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @Schlemazel: The main reason why Ralph Nader needs to be slow roasted over an open fire. What are hundreds of thousands of lives compared to his importance in the political process, anyways?

  208. 208.

    lamh36

    @raven: The rules are interesting. Just heard them say the Team competition members can be changed at will by the Coach…so in theory even if you get the higher score than another…the coach can decide they you aren’t a reliable member and have another one selected for the individual apparatus.

  209. 209.

    Mike J

    @mike in dc:

    Hopefully Clinton will crush Trump electorally and the Greens will slip back down to sub-5% territory by election day.

    She’s not going to owe them any loyalty after the election. Don’t know why she’d give them anything.

  213. 213.

    JPL

    I just saw my first Hillary Clinton ad while watching the Olympics.. It was Donald talking about where his clothes were made.. Nice ad..

  216. 216.

    raven

    A change in FINA rules will now require all relay alternates at the 2016 Rio Olympic Games to compete in either prelims or finals.
    Traditionally, nations with enough swimmers under the FINA “B” cut will bring up to 6 swimmers per relay, giving them the option of resting some swimmers in prelims, or letting a few swimmers compete in prelims for the right to a slot in the finals relay.
    But FINA’s qualification system for the 2016 Rio Games has a new section that complicates that strategy somewhat:
    If an NOC [National Olympic Committee] enters relay-only swimmers for a specific event, these swimmers must swim either in the heat or final of that relay event. Should a relay-only swimmer not compete, this will lead to the disqualification of the respective team in the final.

  217. 217.

    JPL

    OT Now that folks are reading Trump’s twitter feed this was discovered..
    Personally, I think Douglas Durst’s brother got screwed by Douglas–no wonder he’s angry. For those who are not familiar with the Durst case, google Robert Durst.

  223. 223.

    Miss Bianca

    @cokane: I really liked it. Judging from the quality of the comments, tho’, most of his readers didn’t. : (

    ETA: I’m always amazed by the comments on articles that seem like a willful illustration of Refusing to Grasp the Author’s Point.

  225. 225.

    ThresherK

    @Tissue Thin Pseudonym: Tangent time: Oh, I’d love it for college football teams to not have to double-issue numbers because there are over 100 members on a team. Who doesn’t do that anymore? Jeebus cripes, there are 85 scholarships. Can’t the NCAA limit the team size to something meaningful?

    @Patricia Kayden: For all te right’s (lip) service to military members and their kin, it’s taken this shitstorm to make the term “Gold Star Family” a common phrase in political coverage. Couldn’t happen to a nicer wing.

  227. 227.

    Matt McIrvin

    @SFAW: The ACA was not a Heritage Foundation plan. The only thing the two have in common is the presence of an insurance mandate. The ACA is quite similar to “Romneycare” in Massachusetts, but that was actually a plan largely drafted by a Democratic legislative supermajority.

    As it’s shaping up, it appears to me that the ACA’s exchanges are not all that, but its combination of regulation of the insurance industry and Medicaid expansion is incredibly important. But those are its most liberal aspects: the latter is the one that Republican state governments have tried hardest to reject. Neither bears any relation to the Heritage plan, which both cut Medicaid and replaced Medicare with vouchers.

  233. 233.

    ThresherK

    @Miss Bianca: Yes, an extra day. Time to start handing out the signs to Greens!

    Support the Green Party: Be Sure And Vote Wednesday November 9th!

  235. 235.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Mike J: After Clinton wins, the whining from anti-Trump Republicans who insist she owes them something and has betrayed them by going hard commie will be deafening. It’s already started: people are spinning fantasies about some kind of unity ticket with a lot of Republican Clinton Cabinet members, moves to the economic right, etc. It wouldn’t bear any relation to the Democratic platform, at least.

  241. 241.

    Chris

    @Brachiator:

    How would you characterize the position of black activist Ajamu Baraka, the Green Party VP candidate.

    “Sale con,” c’est une position politique? Sinon, j’ai plein d’autres mots dans le même style qui lui iraient comme un gant.

  245. 245.

    lamh36

    I appreciate the story of the swimmer Vollmer(sp?) and her honesty about how hard it was to get back in shape after her pregnancy along with the demands of motherhood.

  247. 247.

    burnspbesq

    @Tissue Thin Pseudonym:

    False. Football had all those scholarships long before 1972. Having to reach parity, with that huge weight on the scale, has absolutely killed men’s programs in a number of sports at a number of schools, and slowed the growth of a number of other men’s sports at the D1 level. You think it’s an accident that there are 87 women’s D1 crew programs vs. 34 men’s? Or almost 110 women’s D1 lacrosse programs vs. 70 for men’s? Or 334 women’s D1 volleyball programs vs. 22 men’s?

  249. 249.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym

    @raven: It’s pretty simple math. In the wake of Title IX, schools decided that they couldn’t afford to provide proportionately as many resources (scholarships, coaches, facilities, etc) to women as they had to men. So, they had to cut the resources to some men’s sports. They had the option of either cutting back on the resources devoted to one specific sport (football) on which resources were disproportionately lavished, or they could eliminate some other men’s teams. They opted to do the latter. That wasn’t caused by Title IX; it was a decision that schools made. Treating football differently than all other sports is the problem.

    Though, there was actually another alternative that the NCAA and its members never considered: declare that football and men’s basketball were intended to generate revenue with which the rest of the athletics department was funded. This would have removed football and basketball from the category of educational program, and thus they wouldn’t have been considered when determining whether or not a school was in Title IX compliance. So nothing would have needed to be cut. But they couldn’t do this because they had spent a century arguing in court that generating revenue was not a significant purpose or consideration in running football or basketball teams. They continue to rely upon that argument, as absurd as it is, in order to avoid considering the athletes to be employees.

    They made the explicit decision that football is more important than other men’s sports, and they have made the explicit decision that not treating athletes as employees is more important than other men’s sports. Title IX is not to blame for either of those decisions.

  250. 250.

    germy

    The latest outrage:

    A restaurant in Brooklyn had an autographed photo of drumpf hanging up. Some customers complained on yelp. I took a peek and now their yelp page is full of indignant howls because the restaurant owners “caved” and took down the photo. They refuse to ever eat there again!

  254. 254.

    burnspbesq

    @JPL:

    So Trump admires Kim Jong-un , Putin and Robert Durst. He really does like those who kill people.

    He’s had to downplay his love for Mugabe, because … well …

  255. 255.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym

    @burnspbesq:

    Football had all those scholarships long before 1972. Having to reach parity, with that huge weight on the scale, has absolutely killed men’s programs in a number of sports . . .

    Yes, that’s exactly my point. Faced with the choice between removing some of that huge weight on the scale by reducing the amount of resources going to football (say, by reducing the scholarships to 45 and the number of assistant coaches to 6-8) or eliminating other men’s sports, the NCAA and its members actively chose the latter. They didn’t have to make that choice, and blaming that choice on Title IX is disingenuous.

  257. 257.

    ? Martin

    @Tissue Thin Pseudonym: Exactly this. Title IX made the US into the worlds powerhouse of women’s sports. The only nations that compared were East Germany and the Soviet Union, and you can see why when you compare how the US women’s soccer team is treated relative to the men’s team.

    The thing that killed US mens gymnastics was the money inflow from NCAA football and basketball that made all other sports uncompetitive within university administrations. Football and basketball can pay for their own infrastructure without finding indivdiual benefactors.

  258. 258.

    D58826

    @JPL: Jeb’s son has endorsed ‘old little hands’ according to my twitter feed. That’s gotta hurt and will certainly generate some in interesting Thanksgiving dinner conversations>

  259. 259.

    lamh36

    Wow… Simone Biles!!!

    The height on this vault!!!

    After these qualifying section, scores will be erased and the ladies will have to do it all again. Simone Biles has been consistent…without any unforseen consequences, I expect her to dominate the team and individuals.

  260. 260.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    Because the reality is they’re not about athletics, they’re about finance.

    You know that. I know that. Every AD in the country knows that. But judges and juries have consistently denied that reality pretty much since the beginning of college athletics, and so the ADs can pretend otherwise.

  261. 261.

    ? Martin

    Man, the Brasilian men’s soccer team is terrible (against the expectation of what a Brasilian team should be).

  263. 263.

    Chris

    @Matt McIrvin:

    Except that Nader himself would probably regard it as a failed prediction, because as far as he and Greens are concerned, this wave of liberalism is nothing and they’d rather sabotage it again.

    Yeah. This is what drives me insane about the idiots and their “nach Hitler, uns” theory: when has this ever happened in history, by their own standards?

    I mean, sure, you could argue that putting Bush in the White House and all the disasters that followed ultimately led to a backlash that powered the election of more liberal governments. But according to them, these liberals are all traitors and sellouts and capitalists and tools of The Man.

  265. 265.

    glory b

    @NoraLenderbee: maybe late to the party, and I haven’t looked at all of the comments, but the Greens took money from Halliburton in PA to get on the senate ballot to yry to throw the election to Santorum in 2008. That one I know of , it was reported in the MSM here.

  266. 266.

    Amir Khalid

    @? Martin: @? Martin:
    The Brazilian FA has never given a flying crap about competing in the Olympics. They say it’s like having to play the World Cup every two years.

  267. 267.

    Jeffro

    @Baud: that’s awesome – I hope there will be plenty of similar TV ads between now and November as well

  268. 268.

    mike in dc

    Not quite sure how ratfcking Dems is supposed to win Dem converts to the Green party. Mostly it seems to be geared to take advantage of the naivete, idealism and inexperience of younger voters.

  272. 272.

    Chris

    @Patricia Kayden:

    In this case, the guy was never a Trump supporter in the primary. But I was pretty sure he’d fall in line like a good little soldier, especially since every post I’ve seen by him has been not about Trump but either about Hillary Clinton’s failings, or a denunciation of the Washington establishment (which to him means “liberal”), or a plea that we understand the frustrations that power Trump supporters even if we disagree with them. The whole thing has been so archetypically the thought process of a person slowly talking himself into voting for Trump that I’m fairly surprised at this. (To the point that, as I said, I’m not even sure I believe him).

  274. 274.

    burnspbesq

    @divF:

    Why couldn’t have the football programs shrunk ?

    You’re asking the wrong guy. I’m on record as believing that the multi-gazillion-dollar indirect subsidy to the NFL that results from colleges running its player-development scheme without compensation should end, and yesterday wouldn’t be soon enough to suit me.

    But there are actual reasons for schools to want to be good in football. There is a huge body of empirical evidence showing a strong and statistically significant positive correlation between football success and alumni giving–even at a women’s golf school like Duke, which sucked at football for most of my adult life.

    You could probably run a FBS program with 60 scholarships, but nobody will volunteer to be the first school to unilaterally disarm. And the NCAA isn’t going to push it, albeit not for football-related reasons; if the power five football conferences were to pull out of the NCAA, that would make the D1 men’s basketball tournament, which is the goose that lays the golden eggs, significantly less valuable.

  277. 277.

    raven

    @burnspbesq:

    Basketball — predominantly men’s — typically is the only college sport besides football that generates significant income for schools, but even popular basketball programs barely generate half the money football generates. Nationally in 2010-11, the top 15 college basketball programs generated roughly $293 million, less than a third of what the top 15 football programs generated. Still, Division I teams that advance through the NCAA Championships tend to make big profits for schools.

  279. 279.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym

    @raven: I don’t hate football. I just think it’s ridiculous that anyone can look at the relative weights of spending in NCAA athletic departments and conclude that it’s women’s sports that destroyed so many non-revenue men’s sports. I enjoy watching college football, but I wouldn’t enjoy it any less if there were only 45 scholarships per team.

  280. 280.

    glory b

    @TopClimber: The guy who created the “Gasland” movies HATES the Greens. I heard him recently and he said that he has been to hundreds of environmental town halls, various types of meetings, hearings, etc., and he has never seen a Green Party rep at any of them.

    He said that if they want to maintain a party, they change the name.

  281. 281.

    JPL

    @raven: I don’t think it’s football haters.. Truth be known the NBA and NFL have been using colleges to fund their minor leagues. It doesn’t mean that watching a particular sport is good or bad.

    I use to love watching rowing and track, back in the day..

  282. 282.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym

    @raven: I already addressed that. Yes, football and basketball generate lots of revenue, though it’s unclear at just how many schools football actually makes more money than it costs. In theory, this could provide an argument that they shouldn’t count for purposes of Title IX analyses.

    But the NCAA and its members cannot make this argument in court, because they are more concerned with preventing the athletes from being considered employees. So, it’s completely irrelevant to any discussion of the effects of Title IX.

  283. 283.

    glory b

    @redshirt: Yep, looks that way.

    I saw Stein on msnbc earlier, still waiting to hear a journalist ask about this.

    The newspapers here in PA reported it at the time,it’s not hard to find.

  284. 284.

    sherparick

    @Hal: What gets me is the hurt feelings the Greenies and Libertarians get when you criticize them and hold them accountable for their votes. “I have the right to support who I want to, they scream.” Well, you certainly do, but can point out what lazy,self-absorb, joke it is to vote for Jill Stein or Gary Johnson when the right wing wants to take the country back to 1859. A couple of other points.

    1. Jill and her supporters are very white, something that the white journalists covering her seem miss.

    2. Julian Assange is an egomaniac and I believe stated that his agenda was to the break up and destroy the United States, just as the Soviet Union broke up in 1989. l think he serves as a useful idiot to Putin this way. At the same time, the Obama’s administration pursuit of Assange has been foolish and as created an impression of martyrdom that is undeserved.

  285. 285.

    Steve in the ATL

    @burnspbesq: Yep, and without football there wouldn’t be money for any of those other sports. Title IX killed men’ soccer at UGA as well.

  286. 286.

    redshirt

    @raven: I’m coming to really dislike (hate is too strong a word, too strong a feeling) today’s NFL. Godell as God Arbitrator of all matters stinks to high heaven. He’s a tinpot dictator over a slave stable of gladiators.

    Spartacus taught us all what must be done in such a scenario.

  288. 288.

    Mnemosyne

    @Suzanne:

    I did gymnastics as a kid, and I quit after doing the vault one time. One. I just couldn’t run really fast and jump headfirst at an immovable object.

    Heh. That was the only bit of gymnastics that I liked and was any good at, but I definitely do not have the “gymnastics” build (I’m broad-shouldered and top-heavy). I was so-so on the balance beam, but my center of gravity was higher than the other girls. But running headlong at a box so I could jump over it? Sure, why not?

  289. 289.

    Steve in the ATL

    @raven:

    Glad we could get the football haters a head start on the season

    Hopefully they will burn out before the season starts!

  291. 291.

    burnspbesq

    @Steve in the ATL:

    without football there wouldn’t be money for any of those other sports

    That’s a tough case to make without some seriously creative accounting.

  297. 297.

    ? Martin

    @Steve in the ATL: I work at a Div I university with no football, and barely any basketball. But we’re very competitive in a host of other sports because we aren’t dumping every dollar into programs that might, someday, turn into giant profit centers. Instead we’re reliable feeders for a number of olympic sports – swimming, diving, water polo, volleyball. Money from the TV sports aren’t returned to other sports – they’re reinvested into the sport generating the revenue or possibly into another sport that could rise into that role (football -> basketball). But none of it is going to flow to gymnastics. Possibly in the case of basketball some will because there is overlap in terms of facilities, but no way in terms of football.

    Burn’s data shows that it’s not a Title IX issue. The reason there are so many competitive women’s teams is that you can fund dozens of women’s sports for the same check that it costs to support a single Div I football team. Comparably, you could fund dozens of men’s sports for the same check that it costs to support a Div I football team.

  299. 299.

    Steve in the ATL

    @redshirt:

    What’s up with your Falcons this season?

    My assumption is that they will suck as usual! Have one of the best receivers in the league, but a weak-armed QB and a porous OL.

  301. 301.

    Ruckus

    @redshirt:
    Been away for a while.
    Do I think Stein thinks she can win? Yes i think she does. That’s why I believe she doesn’t see this as a vanity campaign. She for sure is delusional. I mean she’s a libertarian, by it’s very definition that makes her delusional. It’s that she’s convinced that if she does this enough times, she will win.

  302. 302.

    Chris

    @sherparick:

    Julian Assange is an egomaniac and I believe stated that his agenda was to the break up and destroy the United States, just as the Soviet Union broke up in 1989.

    The former Soviet republics have done such a good job of turning into green pacifist wiretapping-free utopias in the quarter-century since that happened, it’s almost hard not to wish that fate on the United States.

  304. 304.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @efgoldman: Pretty much like Ralph the Knight in Shining Armor. There were two megalomaniacs running for President in 2000, and Al Gore was not one of them.

  305. 305.

    divF

    @Chris:
    Except that, in a breakup of the U.S., it’s not clear who will get the nukes.

    We’ll try to stay serene and calm
    When Alabama gets the bomb.
    Tom Lehrer – Who’s Next?

  306. 306.

    Miss Bianca

    @Chris:

    The former Soviet republics have done such a good job of turning into green pacifist wiretapping-free utopias in the quarter-century since that happened, it’s almost hard not to wish that fate on the United States.

    FTW!

    It’s being borne in upon me with more and more force that there’s a *lot* more lefty-authoritarianism out there than I ever dreamed. So many people on the left seem to have such a basic contempt for democracy – almost as bad as right-wing authoritarians. But where right-wing authoritarians actually get down into the weeds of using the forms of democracy to suppress the vote for undesirables, the left-wing seems content to hero-worship dillweeds like Julian Assange and whinge about “rigged systems”. Probably just as well, because if they ever *did* get organized to try to rig the system themselves, the results would not be pretty.

  307. 307.

    SFAW

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    Al Gore was not one of them.

    There was no difference between Bush and Gore, except that Gore was fat. (Or was that Michael Moore? I can never remember which is which.)

  308. 308.

    Matt McIrvin

    @sherparick: The electoral-vote.com guy had a comment about Assange that really irritated me. When Assange backed off from his (apparently joking) promise to try to get Trump’s tax returns, he concluded that the reason Assange had no dirt on Trump was obviously that his hackers had tried and failed to get it, and decided that Trump or his financial services just have better info security than the Clinton campaign (in other words, his conclusion was to blame Hillary).

    The idea that Assange, or the probably Russian state hackers feeding him information, might be in the tank for Trump out of a personal or political animus for Hillary Clinton and/or Democrats didn’t even occur to him.

  310. 310.

    Chris

    @Miss Bianca:

    To be fair, I think it’s a lot more muted in the United States than in other parts of the world, and even outside the U.S, it’s not what it used to be.

    Even in the days when we really did have a radical left (like the inter-war period), IIRC it tended more towards anarchism at its worst, socialism or labor militancy more often. There was never a very big audience for Bolshevism in the U.S.A. Compare and contrast France and Italy, which at one time had big and powerful Communist Parties that still came under the Comintern.

  312. 312.

    Chris T.

    @hovercraft: Now that’s all just silly. Spreadsheets and numbers don’t have agendas. Computers have agendas.

    You laugh now, but when our Robot Overlords take over, I’ll be their favored toady!

    “They laughed at Einstein. They laughed at the Wright Brothers. They laughed at my uncle Otis.” “Yeah? What did he do?” “Nothing, he was crazy.”

  313. 313.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Miss Bianca: A lot of these people, especially the ones who worship Assange and/or Snowden, are only vaguely or nominally “left” anyway. They’re anti-war/anti-imperialist people (a respectable view in itself, I think, though they will often have blind spots concerning the warmongering and imperialism of anyone opposed to the US). But they are otherwise more or less libertarian or anarchist, and a lot of them have asshole-trollboy anti-feminist or anti-anti-racist attitudes on top of it. I know some who are actively cheering for Trump to win on “shake it up” grounds and may well vote for him.

    The notion of the US political spectrum bending into a circle is really coming out in pure form this year, and I also think Putin is actively trying to join the ends through the power of trolling to create some left-Trumpist derp alliance that benefits him.

  314. 314.

    AnotherBruce

    @Jeffro: Not to worry, You have to come in at 15% in at least 5 national polls. It’s going to be tough for Johnson but he has a chance. No way Stein is going to be invited.

  318. 318.

    SFAW

    @glory b:

    Their lack of concern about the most vulnerable

    … is NOT a liberal viewpoint, nor is it even a “leftist” viewpoint (as the B-J commentariat appears to have defined the word. “Appears” because I’m not sure I parse that word properly.)

  319. 319.

    Matt McIrvin

    @glory b: Their response to all such objections is “well, your candidate wants to bomb brown people overseas; why aren’t you concerned about them?” And, indeed, Iraq is the reason I ever give them the time of day in the first place. But at this point one would have to take it on faith that Hillary would kill more people than Trump, which I don’t see.

  320. 320.

    Ivan X

    That Clay Shirky piece was so fucking good that I had to actually rise myself out of my stupor and write a response, especially after reading the oblivious responses to it. I think it’s one of the better things I’ve ever written!

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