#BrockTurner may have gotten a light sentence but the neighbors not making it easy for him to live outside of jail pic.twitter.com/k4DXAF7AY2
— coke (@wildd_child) September 3, 2016
Open carry protesters at the house of Brock Turner in Sugarcreek Township. @WCPO pic.twitter.com/QpsqOQCPC2
— Jay Warren (@JayWarrenWCPO) September 2, 2016
In the Walter thread below, Adam linked to this story about scumbag sex offender Brock Turner’s return home:
Turner, who was released on Friday, was greeted in Sugarcreek Township by around a dozen angry protesters wielding menacing signs and, in some cases, weapons.
“He’s not going to live some happy pleasant life,” one protester told WCPO-TV. “We’re going to never let him forget what he did.”
“If he is uncomfortable then he begins to receive at least some punishment that he deserves for his crime,” said another.
I’m embarrassed for those people, and I am embarrassed for all the commenters at Jezebel. This is not acceptable behavior.
I personally think he is a scumbag and if I had my way, he would still be in jail for a number of years. I think his family and the people who wrote those letters in Turner’s defense displayed a sense of breathtaking entitlement. But Brock Turner didn’t sentence himself. The sentence was within the guidelines. He served his time, must now register as a sex offender, and will hopefully be haunted by his actions for some time to come.
But cheering armed mobs outside his house threatening castration and rape is illiberal, offensive, and obscene, not to mention unfair to his other neighbors. You want to do something productive? Help rape victims, donate to women’s shelters, and WORK TO CHANGE THE DAMNED LAW. But you don’t resort to running around waving around weaponry and getting in on mob justice. It’s, quite frankly, unAmerican.
And about those letters his parents and friends wrote.
@Johngcole @AsherLangton Mob justice aside, this is the family home and his family defended his actions in court. Can't feel sorry for them!
— Cody Konior (@codykonior) September 5, 2016
That’s about as dumb a take on things as possible. By that logic we should be stalking every defense lawyer and any character witness who goes to court.
Let me tell you all a story.
A long time ago when I was a young right-wing fascist right out of the army and in college, I worked in the county probation office in Morgantown. I did a number of different things there, but one of the things I did the most was pre-sentence investigations. I did it because it was interesting work, but I also did it because it involved spending a lot of time with convicted felons, many of whom were pedophiles, child rapists, and sex offenders, and the other interns were college aged women and they just felt uncomfortable. So I would trudge over to the jail with a notebook, and do in depth reports on the convicted. I would look at their background, where they went to school, education level, family life growing up, employment history, etc. I would spend hours with them, just listening and jotting down notes, and then I would spend hours writing a detailed report that the Probation Officers would review, and then they would be given to the sentencing judge prior to sentencing.
Because I was a curious guy, I always went to the sentencings for the people whose reports I had written. Again, I was pretty right-wing, and not in favor of leniency. One of the judges I worked with quite a bit was a good ole boy, someone I learned to appreciate as a great man. He was, allegedly, extremely liberal, and a lot of people thought he was too lenient. But he was good to those who worked with him and generous with his time, so I found myself talking to him a lot.
One day, there was a particularly awful person being sentenced (and I don’t remember the charges, but it involved raping young children and a host of other things), and I sat there and listened to family member after family member go up and testify that the convicted was actually a good person. I remember being nauseated by it, because I had spent hours with the guy, and he was not any of the things his family was claiming. At any rate, the judge sentenced him, pretty firmly, and afterwards we had a chat.
I asked him- “Doesn’t it make you sick to your stomach listening to all these family members swearing what a good guy that scumbag is when we all know what he’s done?” The judge paused, looked at me, and said something I will never forget-
“If his kin and his lawyer aren’t going to defend him, who will?”
The judge later went on to become State Supreme Court Justice Larry Starcher. I’m seeing a lot of people who could have learned something from him.
And that’s all I have to say about that.
Big R
Thanks, John. If you’d cut down every law in England to get the Devil, what will you do when he turns on you?
redshirt
Defense Law is such a difficult subject.
I think the biggest heroes are those who dedicate their lives to helping the least among us.
Exurban Mom
This is good, John. Has anyone read “So You’ve Been Publicly Shamed” by Jon Ronson? Online and in-person lynchings are scary. Yes, this guy is a scumbag, but I don’t condone mob justice. It’s not how we should be operating.
Eric S.
Thanks, Cole. I was disturbed by the mob action in that story. Turner is scum but vigilanteism or the threat there of doesn’t belong.
Omnes Omnibus
Yep.
Suzanne
You know that this is how people are WORKING TO CHANGE THE DAMNED LAW in a culture that has left people with no other resort, right? You know that women have been attempting to work within the law and keep getting ignored, stymied, insulted, degraded?
This sounds like the right-wing reaction to riots in the aftermath of Ferguson. This sounds like respectability politics. Sorry.
John Cole
@Suzanne: You’ve lost the fucking plot if calling for someone to be castrated and shot is how you work to change laws. And the reactions to police shootings have been peaceful protests, not mobs stalking the cop’s house calling for his death.
Nice trifecta. You’re disgracing yourself, rape victims and those who want to have these laws changed, and the BLM movement.
Gee
@Suzanne:
Then why not hold these protests outside the offices of the Judge who sentenced him? Why not the state capital? And use measured language calling for justice not more violence. And do it every day until the law changes, which may take years. That’s how you work to CHANGE THE DAMNED LAW.
Chet Murthy
My first reaction, upon reading John”s post, was violent disagreement. But then, commenter Big R noted
and … well, they have a point. The thing that oppressed people MUST protect and strengthen, is the rule of law. And yeah, that means that when the law is unjust, we need to change the law, and not take the law into our own hands. Because the forces of oppression always have more capes, and torches, and nooses.
Yeah, deep down inside, I -like- that Turner is getting this reception upon coming home. But this behaviour legitimizes the hate speech we see on the internet, launched at … every woman who ever is on the internet.
I guess I see now, what John’s getting at. This is the Devil. And when you’ve let the Devil have his way against your (admittedly deserving) enemies, he’ll want dessert, won’t he?
@Suzanne: please reconsider. I’m not going to be as forceful as John, b/c unlike him, I’m (internally) torn. Reminds me of how Dukakis tried to answer that question about his wife being raped and murdered. You’re either for the rule of law, with all its warts and all its problems, you’re either with the civilizing forces, or you’re with the darkness. Me, I don’t want the darkness.
Suzanne
@Gee: There has been a movement to recall the judge, and there is an attempt right now to pass a law to mandate longer sentences for rapists in California. Both appear to be going nowhere.
@John Cole: I don’t want him to be assaulted, I don’t want any violence. But you have lost all perspective if you don’t see that this is a fucking last resort, when every other attempt has failed. Just like rioting and looting stores is a last resort. This is what happens when the legal system fails women en masse. Mean signs are not the primary problem here.
Origuy
@Suzanne: A law to change the sentencing has already passed the California legislature. It’s on the Governor’s desk, and he has until the end of the month to sign it. This action in front of his family’s house has nothing to do with that.
amk
Can the woman sue again now that the obnoxious loophole has been fixed citing miscarriage of justice?
Omnes Omnibus
@amk: You do know that criminal and civil law are different, right?
Lyrebird
Thank you John.
Rule of law is important,
even for cases where I’d personally wish even worse on the perp than what is on those signs.
And scaring people at home
is harrassment.
Scaring people while armed
is worse.
Guerrilla posses protecting young-adult partiers,
ensuring they get home safely,
now that would be a new spin!
I have no problem with the sign about the leniency of the sentence,
except if they are following him home.
I do not wish stalking on anyone,
not even on this POS.
Lyrebird
@Omnes Omnibus: Omnes, I have little clue about that differenc,e I just twice left you a thanks on a defunct thread for the Wonkette explainer (um it had to do with manocide), because it totally turned my evening around.
Omnes Omnibus
@Lyrebird: You’re welcome.
Suzanne
@Origuy: I see the protest in front of his house as a way for a community to say to someone, “Hey, regardless of what the legal system says, you have violated our norms more harshly than that. You used your family’s wealth and your swimming skill to evade punishment. You deserve to be humiliated for that.” If the legal system had done its job, then this wouldn’t happen. Again, I don’t want the guy assaulted. I don’t support violence in any way. But seeing how many dudes get away with rape and abuse of women and don’t face any social consequence…..I lose no sleep for this dude being sad in his house.
I also have vociferously supported gun control to prevent shit like this, but I’m also pretty sad to see people get their hackles raised specifically in this instance and no other.
James E Powell
Lord, save me from those whose anger is righteous, for nothing will ever satisfy them.
Suzanne
@Origuy: I stand corrected. Last I had heard, the law to change sentencing looked unlikely to pass. I would be thrilled if it did. Persky is still a judge.
German Bula
Cole gets wiser every year, this won’t lead to any good. The judge and the legal system carry a large part of the blame; when justice is not properly served, the furies tend to appear, undermining the rule of law itself:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erinyes
Suzanne
@amk: Nope. Double jeopardy would apply. The dude has served his sentence.
CaseyL
OK, I have to admit I smiled at the story when I first read it. But John does have a point.
The whole purpose of law is to establish justice, and you can’t do that if you don’t remove personal vengeance from the equation.
But I also believe public shaming is an appropriate response when the justice system fails, as it did in this case.
Carrying weapons and threatening violence is beyond the line. But I think the rest of it – the protestors and their signs, writing “Rapist” on the street and driveway – those actions are public shaming.
Omnes Omnibus
@Suzanne: Wrong. A civil suit is perfectly legal.
MariedeGournay
There’s something really disgusting about the cheap and easy moral burnishing on display by these protesters. Like riding the coattails of the actual victim’s bravery.
ruemara
Well, you’re not wrong.
Tee
John, don’t assume Suzanne was condoning the actions of these ammosexuals. Woman have been living with this reality all our lives and getting attention for this case is a step forward but women’s real life experiences are still getting diminished and discounted. Assuming ill intention from Suzannes comments means you are not accepting her valid viewpoint that men have have to change the culture of rape. Women can raise our voices and protest but it will take men to realize and recognize that they need to change the “bro” culture. Edited for ammosexual
The Dangerman
At first glance, I’m horrified; at second glance, I’m still horrified, but, as long as no laws are broken, let it roll. Assholes have a right to be assholes (as long as they aren’t breaking any laws) and we have the right to expose them as assholes. Good all around.
As for Defense Lawyers, they make the system work. Now, the Judge …. well, seems like a brain fart, but I didn’t follow the case closely.
Suzanne
@Omnes Omnibus: A civil suit won’t send Turner back to prison. Actually, back to jail. He never went to prison. And I suspect that for this woman, money is not the point.
@CaseyL: Agreed. I just think that it is really perverse within a culture in which between 20% and 33% of women are sexually assaulted (depending on which stat you believe) and fewer than 2% of rapists are convicted to stand up self-righteously about the rule of law needing to be upheld. Of course the rule of law needs to be upheld. But this is a rape culture. This is America, where we cheer for the Steelers even though Ben Roethlisberger is a rapist and Ray Rice beats his wife and still goes on to make millions. We have passed up opportunity after opportunity to uphold the rules of law and decency, so whinging about it now rings really fucking hollow.
Omnes Omnibus
@The Dangerman: Fuck you. You didn’t read shit, so you don’t know shit.
Gee
@Suzanne:
This is ridiculous. You don’t want any violence but you are supportive of people standing in front of his house demanding violence?
Bobby Thomson
@Suzanne: I think the carrying guns crosses the line. I wouldn’t support doing this every day. But when the judicial system is corrupt, shunning and humiliation are some of the only tools society has left. That’s why judicial corruption is so toxic.
Percysowner
@Suzanne: Yes, it’s a last resort. So was the KKK when they saw their way of life being destroyed because those people had been freed and had rights. So was the crowd that lynched Leo Frank because they honestly believed he was guilty. In this case, Brock Turner is indisputably guilty, but if we encourage crowd justice when someone is guilty, where does it stop?
There is a reason we have laws, and courts and judges. Mistakes are made. The privileged get off with little to no punishment, but overriding the justice system will hurt people who have no privilege. Mob justice fueled by emotion is a recipe for disaster. The state is doing what it can to make sure this outcome doesn’t happen again. The judge is facing incredible pressure. Laws have been passed to change the way sentences are handed down. And Brock Turner has made a name for himself. If he steps out of line again, the next judge will have enormous pressure to sentence him as severely as possible and Brock Turner will have a sex offender record to support a harsh sentence.
I’m really uncomfortable with the idea that mobs can and should deal out justice when the legal system fails. That’s a recipe for the breakdown of society.
Omnes Omnibus
@Suzanne:I am sorry. The world does not yet live up to your ideals. We are trying.
The Dangerman
@Omnes Omnibus:
I’ve read enough to know the basics. I could easily be wrong on the judge, which is why I used the word “seems”, but the opinion is consistent with the general reaction to the matter, so I’m either on reasonable ground or lots of people are full of shit.
Mai.naem.mobile
John,i agree with you. Also too, I am guessing he will get in trouble again. It seems like that’s what happens with people like Turner.
OT in other legal news, Purvi Patel, the Indian American woman who got sentenced for feticide in Indiana last year, got released yesterday after her conviction was ovweturned. The state declined to reproduce her. Hope Pence gets asked about this in the debates.
Omnes Omnibus
@Percysowner: No, it’s fine because it is our mob.
/sarcasm
Suzanne
@Gee: I do not support violence or threats of violence. I do support humiliating and shaming this asshole. I especially like, “If it wasn’t rape, then why did you run?”
Mandalay
A timely comment for married British Labour MP and mega hypocrite Keith Vaz who was caught on video having fun with two young male escorts that he had paid for.
It’s worth noting that Vaz has been conveniently calling for soliciting to no longer be an offence. But it doesn’t help your political career when you have been recorded saying “He was OK. He forgot the condom, though. I had to f*** him without a condom”.
His boss, Labour Leader Jermey Corbyn says it’s a private matter. Good luck with that.
Adam L Silverman
@John Cole: I just want it noted that I didn’t post that link because I’m endorsing this type of thing. It was in response to someone commenting about Turner’s homecoming.
Beyond that I agree completely with your remarks.
Suzanne
@Percysowner: I’m really uncomfortable with the idea that a marginalized class of people (in this case, women) should accept frequent assault and a lack of justice, and that the only acceptable, respectable reaction is to shrug shoulders and walk away and attempt change through approved channels only. The breakdown of society comes when the powerful—I.e. In this case, DUDES—do not protect the rights of the marginalized.
You don’t like this, guys? Then get on changing it. We’ve been trying.
Adam L Silverman
@Gee: There have been protests against the judge. He’s been reassigned and is no longer allowed to handle these types of cases (he handed down another within the regs, but incomprehensible sentence a couple of week’s after Turner’s), and is facing a recall.
Gee
@Suzanne:
Either you support this mob or you don’t. Which is it? The signs don’t stop at humiliation and shaming, they call for violence. You don’t get to cherry pick and support the signs you like and not take responsibility for the others that call for violence. It doesn’t work that way.
Major Major Major Major
@Suzanne: There’s an LGBT group called the Pink Pistols that believes that, since so much of anti-LGBT crime goes unpunished, the correct response is to pack heat and shoot the fuckers next time they try something (“pick on somebody your own caliber”). I find this both analogous and profoundly unhelpful to the gay rights movement.
(As an aside, it is, of course, mostly white dude glibertarians.)
bluefish
Threats, guns, vigils? No no no no no. Thanks for writing this piece. Your Judge Buddy quote is a good one. FUBAR.
Mandalay
@Suzanne:
This. I recall the outrage here when BLM were confronting Clinton and Sanders a few months ago while the cameras were rolling. They were also supposed to “walk away and attempt change through approved channels only”. As NIMBY as it gets.
Suzanne
@Gee: Actually, it does work that way. I am free to agree with some of their actions and not others. I’m not standing in front of Brock Turner’s house right now. As I said before, I vociferously disagree with open carry, but I think it says something about people who are upset about it in this case but were okay with it in Dallas as an example of marginalized people exercising their rights. I wholeheartedly support shaming rapists. In fact, I wish more of y’all would get on it.
Major Major Major Major
@Mandalay: I certainly don’t remember seeing anybody here saying that. As I recall, we were talking about how Sanders was totally tone-deaf for trying to whitesplain economics to them.
Do you mean Hillary’s advice about working within the system? Because that was good advice. (Note: protests are part of the system; her point was that they’re only PART.)
Suzanne
@Mandalay: Seriously. Something Frederick Douglass said about power ceding nothing without a demand.
Something else Dr. King said about riots being the language of the unheard.
John Cole
@Suzanne:
Those open carry douche canoes don’t give a fuck about rape. They just like an opportunity to publicly threaten someone with their giant semiautomatic penis.
Miss Bianca
@Suzanne: You know, if it was WOMEN outside that house – or, not necessarily women, but actual rape victims, male OR female – maybe I’d feel like it was a legitimate expression of marginalized peoples’ rage against the system. But guys with guns? Just feels like a bunch of ammosexuals looking to get their war on, using rage against the system as an excuse. Sorry. I don’t buy it that guys with guns showing up outside a convicted rapist’s house is the right medium for the message that rape is wrong. That way more madness lies.
ETA: Or, you know, what JC said.
Gee
@Suzanne:
Wow, this is wrong on so many levels. So incite violence and then act sanctimonious by saying I agree with only some of their actions. This is a whole new level of ignorance. I am done with this blog.
Major Major Major Major
@John Cole: this. You can tell by the signs. And of course the fact that they’re white dudes with big guns.
Major Major Major Major
They’re like the Westboro Baptist Church of guns. They don’t actually care about what they’re standing in front of.
Tee
@John Cole: but would you still be talking about it if women peacefully protested across from the house, would it have made the news? Yeah these guys are hero’s in their own heads but here we are talking about what men, not women, have to do change rape culture.
Big R
@Chet Murthy: I wish I could claim it. It’s more or less a quote from A Man for All Seasons.
Amir Khalid
@Suzanne:
I think Douglass meant meant making demands of the powers that be. Brock Turner is undoubtedly unfairly entitled and privileged but he is not among the powers that be.
Suzanne
I think the thing I object to the most in what John writes is that it is the responsibility of those who want to make productive change in this scenario, and those people who are primarily but by no means exclusively affected by sexual violence are women, should do the work to CHANGE THE DAMNED LAW. No. Dudes who are in positions of power should work to change the damned law. White people who never get pulled over should be the ones to demand equality from police departments. Men should demand accountability from the legal system on behalf of women.
Look, you don’t like mob justice, then CHANGE THE DAMNED CULTURE that produced a 3-month jail stint for a rich white rapist.
You don’t get to shit on people for centuries and then get your panties in a wad that they aren’t using tactics that you approve of.
Feathers
I have to confess that when I looked at the pictures, I shook my head. These people seem to just be haters. I imagine some of them would also show up at a victim’s house, demanding that she be thrown in jail because she was a lying bitch whore.
Mai.naem.mobile
@efgoldman: jeezus reprosecute her. F’ing autocorrect.
Adam L Silverman
@Major Major Major Major: The question is where is the line between being aware that one may need to engage in self defense because one is a target because of prejudice and turning oneself into a vigilante. This is the question for the Pink Pistols.
Knowing how to defend oneself, being mentally prepared to do so if it should become necessary is not the same thing as going out and looking for trouble. That said, I’m not LGBTQ and can only imagine and then accept how difficult being so has been and still can be in the US (and a lot of other places). I’m not a woman either, and can also only imagine and then accept how difficult life is for them because of the perversions within American culture regarding women, sex, consent, etc. At some point everyone, individually, has to determine where that line is.
Mandalay
@Major Major Major Major:
What I recall was people posting here along the lines that while they were sympathetic to BLM’s cause, if their actions might impact Clinton’s election prospects then they could fuck off. I admit to having mixed feelings myself. (Maybe check Elon’s threads at the time?)
And we see the same reaction (not on BJ, but throughout the nation) towards Colin Kaepernick’s beautiful protest: the man is entitled to protest a worthy cause, but fucking with football and the anthem is beyond the pale, and automatically off limits. Oh-fucking-really? I don’t think so.
Miss Bianca
@Suzanne: You know, normally I’m right there with you when it comes to criticism of the patriarchy, but if you seriously think that these guys are there because they’re just filled with a burning desire to end rape culture, then I have to say I think you’re deluding yourself. These guys are NOT our allies.
Suzanne
@Miss Bianca: There are women there. And dudes. As it should be.
@Amir Khalid: The powers that be are much more aligned with Brock Turner than they are with his victim. Women have been demanding better treatment and prosecution from the legal system for sexual assault for years, and yet little has changed. I see this as all part of a demand from power.
Major Major Major Major
@Adam L Silverman: It’s pretty obviously just a gun club if you hang out with them. No real interest in self defense.
Major Major Major Major
@Mandalay: you could very well be right, it certainly sounds like an opinion somebody here might hold. (Which, of course, doesn’t make it true.)
Adam L Silverman
@Major Major Major Major: I will take your word for it. And as long as their legally and responsible gun owners within the states and municipalities in which they reside there’s nothing wrong with them being a gun club.
The rest of my remarks regarding the line between self defense/vigilanteism/looking for trouble stand regardless.
Suzanne
@Miss Bianca: Yeah, maybe they’re not. As I have said, I have supported gun control for a long time. I am disheartened by the fact that people on this blog supported or at least didn’t criticize protestors in Dallas who chose to exercise their right to open carry, but now are upset by this. If i had it my way, both actions would be against the law.
Tee
@Adam L Silverman: it sucks having to teach sons that rape is not acceptable because it is prevalent in games, music, culture. It sucks to teach daughters to distrust every man because it is the way of world. It breaks my heart to foster broken boys and girls who have been assaulted and abused by people they are supposed to trust. Until men, make the change in their view points, acceptance of what is okay women have to be wary. One in six, your mother, sister, co-worker has experienced sexual assault in some degree. You are the action to change.
Adam L Silverman
@Mandalay: @Major Major Major Major: In the long line of ethical discourse on revolution, (ETA:) the violent response to the state directing its power against a specific group within its purview or not protecting a specific group within its purview when other groups attack them, is considered just. I can’t speak for other commenters, and while I think the use of political violence by BLM would be counterproductive, as well as illegal, based on the political history of the US, BLM needs to do what it needs to do, support who it needs to support, within the law. And they don’t need to apologize for it. As for Kaepernick, he’s got the right of the argument and the naysayers should pound sand.
Barbara
@Suzanne: How many ways are there to be wrong? She can sue Turner for civil damages like medical expenses and whatever else relatively generous California laws provide for.
Major Major Major Major
@Adam L Silverman: that sounds about right.
Miss Bianca
@Suzanne: I don’t approve of open carry – unless you have some legitimate reason to do so – in any way, shape or form, so “people on this blog” are not a monolith. And whether women are there or not, when you bring guns into this type of “protest”, you have lost me. Period. You resort to that to make your point, and your point is illegitimate and tainted, as far as I am concerned. Because the *only* point to flashing guns around is to flash guns around. It’s to threaten and intimidate, not to protest injustice in the legal system. Not to protect “God-given rights”.
Welcoming “allies” like that is like feminists climbing into bed with pro-life, anti-sex fundamentalists to protest pornography. The enemy of your enemy is not actually your friend.
Adam L Silverman
@Tee: I do not disagree with any of what you’ve written. There is something twisted within American society. It has been twisted since colonization. We don’t talk about it near enough, if at all, and I don’t think anyone has the foggiest idea how to fix it.
Suzanne
@Barbara: No civil suit will put Turner back in jail for a punishment that comes closer to equaling her suffering, which is what she objected to in her statement. I didn’t see any desire for financial recompense, though she may.
Adam L Silverman
@Major Major Major Major: that should have read the violent response to the state… But I think you got my point.
The Dangerman
@Adam L Silverman:
Correct. Basically falls under the same category as assholes have a right to be assholes.
ETA: …and the Niners have a right to cut his ass if he continues to underperform (I think his last game was decent, but he’s the definition of flash in the pan; got his big contract and has proceeded to basically suck).
Mandalay
@Suzanne:
That was pretty much what Elon said to folks here who were whitesplaining why it was so wrong of BLM to rush the stage when Clinton was speaking.
rikyrah
Educated women pose big problem for Donald Trump in key suburbs
Philadelphia’s suburbs have far more voters than blue-collar communities, and women there appear to loathe the Republican nominee.
By DANIEL DALE
Washington Bureau
Sun., Sept. 4, 2016
BLUE BELL, PA.—The road to the White House doesn’t run through the diners of downtrodden Appalachian coal country. It runs through this upscale supermarket selling fancy cheese to the professional women of a wealthy Philadelphia suburb.
It’s simple math. And it’s leading Donald Trump toward a devastating Pennsylvania defeat.
Trump almost certainly needs to win Pennsylvania if he is going to win the election. His popularity in its rural and industrial areas gives him a passing chance. But he is getting trounced in the prosperous suburban communities that are home to far more voters.
Polls show that educated white women, in particular, appear to be rejecting Trump in favour of the educated white woman running against him.
For all the talk of Trump’s toxicity with racial minorities, it is easy to forget that he is poisonous to much of the white population, too. In fact, because he has alienated white women and white people with college degrees, he is actually doing worse with whites than Mitt Romney did in 2012.
His issues are most acute in manicured oases like Montgomery County’s affluent Blue Bell, 40 minutes north of Philadelphia. A summer day spent talking to 37 women at McCaffrey’s Food Market, a store offering artisan pizza and custom cakes, corroborated the basic finding of data from Pennsylvania to Virginia to Colorado: Trump is staring at a suburban whupping.
His problem is people like Phyllis O’Connor, 80, a retiree who worked in patient relations in the surgery department at the University of Pennsylvania. She agrees with Trump on just about every policy issue, but she finds his personality intolerable.
“I’m a Republican, I always have been, and I don’t know what I’m going to do. I think it’s pathetic,” O’Connor said. “I think he is too in-your-face, I don’t think he deals well with people, I don’t know how he would deal with world powers, and I think he is unable to put consideration into a decision. He just flies off.”
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Suzanne: Ask OJ about that.
Suzanne
@Miss Bianca: The Black Panthers “flashed guns around” in order to make a political statement. I see this as in the same vein.
@Adam L Silverman: There are plenty of ideas about how to fix it. The first being that rapists and abusers should be shunned and shamed. They shouldn’t be starting quarterbacks for NFL teams, and their fan bases should revolt until they are fired. They should never have their songs played on the radio again. Their films shouldn’t be in the Sundance film festival. They shouldn’t get to have their cases investigated by universities, and they shouldn’t be allowed to finish college at the same school as their victims. In short, we should actually disapprove.
rikyrah
Daily News Bin
@DailyNewsBin
Hillary Clinton’s diligent month of quietly touring swing states has paid off
Major Major Major Major
@Miss Bianca: people on this blog support open carry? I think some of us get amused when it’s not a middle-aged white dude who’s the one walking around with a dong extender, but that’s about it.
Tee
@Adam L Silverman: Talking about how it affects every day life and being aware of how pervasive it is in our culture is a start. Preparing and protecting the next generation, volunteering on hotlines, shelters or forums, standing up and saying “This action, this law is unacceptable”. Being aware is a start. But it gets old to have this same conversation year after year, victim after survivor. Women know these things and work sometimes impatiently to change, but we need men to step up and recognize it is not a woman’s issue it is everyone’s issue.
Adam L Silverman
@Suzanne: I wasn’t writing about rape specifically. I was writing about the more generalized “there’s something twisted within American culture” that goes beyond just the issues with rape. I’m aware of what more could be done, as well as should be done. I wrote one of the reports on the Army and rape, that rooted it within the larger American cultural problems and issues.
Suzanne
@Mandalay: That’s why I see this as respectability politics. I find it really shitty to get more upset about an action which has so far produced no violence (thank FSM) than a whole system of violent oppression that has gone on for years.
Once again, CHANGE THE DAMNED RAPE CULTURE.
Adam L Silverman
@Tee: I don’t disagree with any of this either.
Miss Bianca
@Suzanne: Yeah, and look how incredibly effective that was for the Black Panthers. Now there’s no racism any more, right? Because the Black Panthers carrying guns forced us to look deep into the collective soul of America and change our ways.
ETA: It doesn’t work that way.
Barbara
@Suzanne: Suzanne, Turner was prosecuted and convicted by a jury so the state took the crime seriously. He was not actually convicted of the most serious form of rape because of a gap in California law, which California is trying to change. One person’s light sentence isn’t the definition of injustice, and going after a guy who was actually convicted and has to register as a sex offender does nothing to address the real cases of injustice, which happens when men are not even prosecuted. So when these dudes show up at Ken Starr’s or Jameis Winston’s house I might have more respect for them. And as for open carry — I think it is always and everywhere a bad idea.
Major Major Major Major
@Adam L Silverman: yeah. I don’t like political violence, but certainly understand how it can be “just”. Perhaps it’s more appropriate to say that it’s ineffective in the current system, and I prefer people to use methods that work, like slow, boring, horrible work within the existing systems (or, in the case of gays, the slow accumulation of capital and caché plus a horrible plague). “No-one ever changed the church by pulling down the steeple; systems aren’t made of bricks, they’re mostly made of people.”
Tee
@Adam L Silverman: sorry it’s one of my “hot” button issues and for a dude on the internet you seem open to information. Not trying to pick on you.
mike in dc
Name and shame is probably okay in this instance. But “threaten and intimidate” should (almost) never be okay. I say (almost) because there might be some scenario I can’t think of where it’s appropriate as a rational last resort. This is definitely not it, though.
Suzanne
@Barbara: If you think three months in county jail is “taking the crime seriously”, then we are not even on the same planet. This crime is second only to murder or maiming someone.
@Miss Bianca: The Black Panthers’ protest may not have been effective, but the “respectable” protests didn’t end racism, either.
Adam L Silverman
@Tee: I understand. I’m open. Also on your side, so to speak.
rikyrah
How 1 Black-Owned Ga. School Is Revolutionizing Education for the Gifted
When Claire Anderson could not find adequate resources for her gifted son, Caleb, she founded her own school to help her son and others like him.
BY: BREANNA EDWARDS
Posted: September 4, 2016
Claire Anderson’s son, Caleb, started reading at 8 months. By 18 months he was in the first grade.
Realizing that Caleb was gifted, Anderson, who lives in Metro Atlanta, was determined to ensure that he would have the best resources available so that he would remain intellectually stimulated and challenged. And so she went on a search for those resources for him, but she found that nothing suited her child’s educational and social needs.
She recalls people being shocked that Caleb was a black boy and gifted. She notes how one psychologist told her to stop teaching him, and eventually other children would catch up. She and her husband, desperate to find something for their son, tried several schools—some private, some public—only to discover that most schools did not have adequate resources or simply did not find it financially beneficial to have a gifted program.
Well, you know what they say: If you want something done right, do it yourself.
That’s exactly what Anderson, who has a master’s degree in education and had previously launched a program to teach children to read before the age of 3, did. In 2012 she founded the Atlanta Gifted Academy in Marietta, Ga., with the intention of revolutionizing education for gifted children.
“My main goal is to provide them with the best education out there for them. I always tell people that I want my students to have the best resources. I want them to be prepared to go to any Ivy League college of their choosing,” Anderson told The Root. “I want to make sure that they have the best curriculum, the best teachers … at their fingertips.”
Right now the AGA’s student body—which includes Caleb—is majority African American, a group of children who often have to deal with extra scrutiny and poorly concealed racial disparities, even within their very places of learning.
“Having a school like this that appropriately challenges and creates opportunities for gifted students of color is essential and timely. Black families, in particular, raising gifted children nationwide are disenfranchised from traditional gifted-education programs and lack equitable access to programs like the one provided here,” Joy Lawson Davis, a board member with the National Association for Gifted Children, said of the AGA. “This school has the potential to serve as an exemplary model for the nation. The founders are applauded for their initiative and perseverance in developing this service for Atlanta-area families raising gifted and high-potential students.”
Major Major Major Major
@Suzanne: I think Barbara meant that the system took it seriously by trying and convicting him.
Mandalay
@Suzanne:
Yep. films made by child rapists shouldn’t be in the Sundance film festival.
But films about rapists definitely belong there. (The film is a documentary about a college jock, Jameis Winston, who got away with rape because he was such a good quarterback. The case was even more egregious than that of Turner since there was DNA evidence.)
FSU eventually paid the victim $950,000.
AnotherBruce
@srv: I don’t think anybody mentioned “mandatory minimums” before you showed up. But you’re enough of a vampire to never let a tragedy go to waste. In other words, fuck you.
Steeplejack
@Major Major Major Major:
Counterpoint: Stonewall Inn.
Suzanne
@Major Major Major Major: I believe that the CA legal system did NOT take this seriously, because an absurdly light sentence was within their sentencing guidelines. They apparently see this as less of a thing than drug possession. I don’t think that is evidence of taking anything seriously. The absurdly low rate of prosecution and conviction that I cited above is more proof that we as a society do not take this seriously.
You treat people like shit so long, then get resentful when they object? That is the tactics of an oppressor. Fuck that.
Suzanne
@Mandalay: Have you read “Missoula” by Krakauer?
Makes. Me. Sick.
Suzanne
@Major Major Major Major: I should note that I mean this as a general “you”, not you specifically. Apologize for the lack of clarity.
Major Major Major Major
@Steeplejack: Stonewall was in response to direct police violence so it’s in a different class. The white night riots would be a better comparison.
Edit: a very apt comparison point, actually.
Barbara
@Suzanne: The DA prosecuted and the jury convicted. The sentence was in the range of guidelines and what angered people most were the judge’s statements of evident sympathy for the guy. People like you are why the prison industrial complex thrives. I think he deserved a longer sentence but in the scheme of things in the America of today there is a lot more injustice associated with too long rather than too short sentences so I don’t happen to see Turner as the epitome of injustice.
Steeplejack
@mike in dc:
This is about right.
I think some commenters have piled on Suzanne unfairly and painted her as supporting everything even hinted at in the photograph, when she clearly has said several times that she supports the “naming and shaming,” not the violence. There’s a bit of dust in the air from the straw men being beaten.
But I can certainly understand her vehemence—and that of other women—because progress (if any) has been fuck-all slow on this issue.
@Gee:
Based on this comment, I think we’ll all be happier if you self-deport to a blog that better meets your needs—you know, one where no one says anything that you disagree with or find “stupid” and where the whole blog bears responsibility for each and every comment.
Mandalay
@Barbara:
Say what? Seriously?…..
Suzanne
@Barbara: Yeah, we have a national epidemic of rapists being punished too harshly. That’s why rape is so rare! That’s why so many rapists are in prison!
Oh wait.
The prison industrial complex thrives because we prosecute nonviolent offenders for dumb shit. Rape culture thrives because of you and people like you who don’t understand that this is one of the few acts someone can commit that merit removing someone from society for a really long time. Considering that at least 20% of women will be raped, I guess we have a fundamental disagreement on the scale of the problem.
LiberalTarian
Brock Turner’s life as he knew it came to a screeching halt with that rape. I want to feel bad for him in a way, I am glad he lost things he deserved to lose because of his bad behavior. But I also mourn for him. What’s done is done. No going back. His biggest victim was Brock Turner. His victim knows it wasn’t her fault; he knows it was.
This is symbolic to people … go after this one guy, scapegoat him. But it doesn’t change the fact that he didn’t think what he did was wrong. Until we go after the culture that allows that, we are stuck with the behavior. We need to own it … Cosby, Ailes, Parker, et al. have gotten away with it for so long because we (collectively) blame the victim. We also normalize it — look at our video games, cinema, music. We need to change it all the way around.
I can’t change everybody, but I can try to change conversations that I take part it. But it is hard and painful
Steeplejack
@Major Major Major Major:
I brought up Stonewall as a counterpoint to:
It is an interesting hypothetical to consider how successful that slow work within the system would have been without Stonewall or the White Night riots alerting the “system” that change was not happening at a satisfactory pace for everyone.
eemom
@Barbara:
I agree. The system is fucked, but this particular case wasn’t about the system — it was about one particular asshole judge.
I also agree with the general observation that this particular mob seems to be more about a bunch of metallic dick-swingers latching on to a high profile case about a scumbag rich kid, than about any kind of righteous protest against the systemic injustice to rape victims. When they show up outside the houses of other rapists who got off too easily whose faces were NOT plastered all over the news media, then I might find that righteous motive plausible. How will they find those people? Well, when you actually DO care about an injustice, you do your homework.
Barbara
@Mandalay: Because the repercussions of protesting too short sentences leads to the spiral of increasing sentences. It will not do a damn thing to change rape culture. I can get behind changing the law so that what happened leads to a more serious charge and a longer sentence but the net effect of protests over sentencing without regard for context will be for every judge to be a hanging judge.
Major Major Major Major
@Steeplejack: as for working within the system, the story of Harry Hay and the Mattachine Society is a really fascinating read. He was too gay for the communists and too communist for the gays, but decidedly on the “within the system” side of things. Really fascinating figure.
Things were just starting to look vaguely positive for gay people in San Francisco (so the best things were on the… planet?) when AIDS hit. The people like Cleve Jones that Milk had helped train up from party boys to organizers really took charge then. The plague was, strangely, very helpful in this way. It put a human face on everything for middle America. And the timing couldn’t have been worse/better.
Obviously no two struggles are identical and I’m focusing on where the analogy falls apart, here.
Barbara
@LiberalTarian: Yes, this. So long as a substantial percentage of men see what happened as within the realm of normal there will continue to be injustice at every stage of the criminal justice system as it pertains to rape.
Steeplejack
@Major Major Major Major:
Part of the reason that Martin Luther King Jr. was able to “work within the system” was that L.B.J. and the establishment could look past him and see that Malcolm X and Huey Newton were the alternatives.
Mandalay
@Barbara:
If only that was actually true for rapists.
But the larger issue is nothing to do with sentence length; it’s that 97 of Every 100 Rapists Receive No Punishment. So while we can debate the length of sentences for rape for the 3%, it’s the other 97% who receive no sentence at all that is the much larger problem.
Aleta
The guys with guns out may think they’re doing a mating display or something, who knows.
For others protesting, there’s an effect from the fact that the Brock case isn’t for sure over on his part. This is from June, accuracy I can’t say:
I also remember reading somewhere that his attorney plans to appeal his sex offender designation. (That would allow him to coach or privately train girl swimmers, for example.)
As for condemning “all the commenters at Jezebel”: everyone has a breaking point, and it changes after bad experiences. When a friend I know to be nonviolent says something threatening about a guy who’s abused their daughter or sister, I don’t condemn them. I remember hundreds of normally nonviolent people protested, threatened or wrote violent comments when Walter Palmer killed Cecil, at Jezebel and everywhere, here too. It seemed understandable because people are so sick of this stuff.
Major Major Major Major
@Steeplejack: that’s how one of the stories goes, yes.
Suzanne
@LiberalTarian: Agree with all of what you wrote except for the assertion that he was his own biggest victim. The woman he raped is very clearly is suffering major trauma. I feel much more for her than I do for him, especially because he thinks his error was drinking.
@Major Major Major Major: Violence is essentially inevitable in the face of violence. History teaches us that, in almost every society, in almost every time. It’s not okay and I never said it was, but if we are committed to social justice, then we need to concentrate our efforts on solving the root problem, not slapping down little uprisings.
Barbara
@Mandalay: I will look up information on sentencing for rape but while this sentence struck me as being light, I don’t think the true injustice of rape is in sentencing but refusal to prosecute or even investigate. So I think we are saying the same thing.
Steeplejack
@Major Major Major Major:
Wah, wah, wah. :: sad trombone sound ::
eemom
@LiberalTarian:
Uh…..your first assertion is so far fucked I don’t know where to start. The rapist is the “biggest victim”?? WOW.
Your second assertion is right there with it. That’s exactly what the little shit argued in “defense” — that it was the fault of the “culture,” not him. And “he didn’t think what did was wrong”?? Sweet baby Jesus. Are you a rape apologist, a rapist yourself, or just fucking stupid as a bag of bricks?
Major Major Major Major
@Mandalay:
This is all a very good point. Where’s threatening to castrate Turner while holding a big gun fit in?
Steeplejack
@Steeplejack:
Not that it matters much, but this comment was written when Major^4’s at #116 consisted of only the first paragraph. I don’t think it does here, but sometimes backfilling can lead to misinterpretation.
Major Major Major Major
@Steeplejack: your ideas intrigue me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
Suzanne
@Major Major Major Major: It is enormously clear that the Turner case is serving as a flashpoint when there have been a number of high-profile cases surrounding rape, domestic violence, and sexual harassment that are bringing attention to these issues. We are looking at this not as an individual case, like the lawyers do, but as yet another instance of violence against women that is dismissed or tolerated by the powerful. People are resorting to threats against Turner because nothing else to change this reality has been effective.
This isn’t “okay”, but nothing about the culture that has produced this has been okay. That is the far, far greater crime, the far greater threat to the rule of law. Pissing and moaning that PROTESTING: UR DOIN IT RONG when we have been ignored when we did it right is respectability politics. It is bullshit when white people say this to black people, and it is bullshit now.
Barbara
@Suzanne: Turner getting a light sentence is a little uprising in a vast ocean of violence against women. Think about popular songs: “The only thing I ask of you is not to stop when I say when.” On the radio and set to a catchy tune. I don’t think teaching Brock Turner a lesson is worth the risk of vigilante justice and it is highly doubtful that those willing to administer the beat down would even know what the lesson is supposed to be. This is not the way forward.
Major Major Major Major
@Barbara: that song is the guy singing about how he hopes she’ll stay with him even when he gets cold feet.
As an aside.
Steeplejack
@Major Major Major Major:
Puh-leeze. “That’s how one of the stories goes, yes.” You should have just squirted out a cloud of ink and scuttled off. You earned the sad trombone.
If you have another story, lay it out.
West of the Rockies (been a while)
@Gee:
Well… Bye.
Major Major Major Major
@Suzanne: ok. I still disapprove of political violence? I don’t see the problem with noticing when people are doing something wrong.
Ruckus
John
Was on a criminal trial jury once where his entire family with the exception of the father were the only witnesses for the defendant. Everyone on the jury thought it was very telling that the father would not testify nor show up for the trial. Of course also telling was the evidence/witnesses that the prosecutor presented.
Major Major Major Major
@Steeplejack: eh, I’m done. Political violence: good or bad? Opinions differ. Film at eleven. Bye.
Suzanne
@Barbara: I agree that violence and threats thereof are not okay. But I think they are entirely predictable. The guillotine was entirely predictable when the powerful shat on the people too long. I just don’t think violent revolution was the greater crime.
The best way to stop this is to tear down rape culture, and the legal system can do its part in that actively prosecuting rapists and abusers and sending them to prison for long stretches. Dudes can do their part by policing each other and creating a culture of consent and mutual respect. None of that starts with criticizing a few jackasses in front of Brock Turner’s house.
sharl
@John Cole:
Yep. They’re cut from the same cloth as bible-waving Christians outside family planning clinics shrieking at low income women and teenage girls. They’ve found a way to be bullying assholes while wearing a (to them) veneer of respectability.
I grew up near there, and my brother and his family live in a neighborhood adjacent to Sugarcreek Township. I wonder how these protesters responded when John Crawford was cut down by Beavercreek police in the Walmart a few miles away, before he could even respond? “Thug should have listened to the cops”, or something like that, would be my guess. Yeah, I know these fools.
{Obi Wan Kenobi voice} These are not the heroes you seek.
eemom
To elaborate on what I said above — though I wonder why I bother — there’s a difference between saying that there’s a culture that condones rape, and saying that a culture is RESPONSIBLE for rape. The latter is SO fucked I again don’t know where to start.
That kid did not, in fact, think it was just “frat boy business as usual” when he dragged an unconscious woman behind a dumpster and violated her. Normal men don’t become rapists because they’re drunk or play too many video games. GOD.
Suzanne
@Major Major Major Major: It seems like everyone noticed when a few jackasses act like jackasses, and yet when shit-tons of rapes are committed and no one gets punished…..CRICKETS.
That is wrong, it is false equivalency, and it is incredibly hurtful.
Major Major Major Major
@Suzanne: @Suzanne: nobody here is saying that we shouldn’t be working to tear down rape culture. everybody here is agreeing with you that that is the correct place to focus. this blog routinely has discussions about rape culture, and how this sentence was ridiculous, and the case was ridiculous, and how there’s an epidemic.
we (at least i) am saying that political violence is bad. this post is about how these jackasses are wrong and shouldn’t be doing what they’re doing. that has been the entirety of this discussion. am i wrong? what is the problem here?
Barbara
@Suzanne: It might not have been the greater crime but it paved the way for more violence and repression not greater freedom, as originally intended. Violence usually makes things worse even when it is understandable.
mapaghimagsik
@LiberalTarian:
We’re blaming video games? I played plenty. Never raped anyone.
Suzanne
@Major Major Major Major: I think people might be saying that, but their words and actions suggest otherwise. I think that Cole and others who are JUST SO UPSET about these people in front of Turner’s house are not truly acknowledging the extent and severity of rape culture. They are pissed without really comprehending the greater context. At this point, Turner is safe in his house and women across the country have no assurance that they can live their lives free of violence and that they will see justice if the worst happens. That is exponentially worse than what is happening to Turner. Being unduly pissed about the wrong thing, and demanding that oppressed people take their anger through the channels that power has set up when that has not been effective is respectability politics. No one is defending violence. These jackasses are symptoms of a much bigger problem, but by all means, let’s continue to concentrate on the wrong fucking thing.
Major Major Major Major
@Suzanne: I guess I just don’t see the being “unduly” pissed (instead of regular pissed) or the lack of concentrating on the right thing. In the country/world at large, yes, but not really here I guess is what I’m trying to say.
Suzanne
@Suzanne: I should also note that the NFL has a big fucking rape and domestic abuse problem, and yet when I suggest that equality-minded people stop giving them their money and attention, I am ignored/ridiculed. Our very blog host even once implied that Roethlisberger wasn’t convicted, so there wasn’t an ethical issue in supporting his team and career. The NFL and football fans could take an immense step in tearing down rape culture, and yet they do not. As I said before…..CRICKETS.
But some randos in front of Brock Turner’s house threaten the very existence of the rule of law? Please. The plot, it has been lost.
Major Major Major Major
@Suzanne: OK, that’s valid.
mapaghimagsik
Okay, go after rape culture. How about processing the rape kits that sit around unprocessed?
How about naming and shaming? Make sure the nasty little perp doesn’t wiggle out of that while we wing our hands over ‘the culture’
I guess we go after the culture of murder, next?
The culture of embezzlement?
There is a tiny sliver of people who are just bad.
Suzanne
@Major Major Major Major: I honestly think that the dude writers don’t really engage on feminist issues enough on this blog. We discuss race a lot, as we should, and there is basic agreement that abortion should be legal, sexism is bad, but there is very little deeper analysis and there is a lot of ridicule. For example, the “safe spaces” debate, which quickly devolved into guys, including our host, saying that women’s “hurt fee-fees” shouldn’t be accommodated EVAR. No evaluation of that position in respect to campus rape. These issues are not simple. Yet honestly, I think some of the dudes here could do better in terms of being enlightened allies. That doesn’t mean that I don’t like it or doubt that they are at heart good people. That is just an example of how I think this blog sometimes misses the big picture w/r/t women’s issues.
cokane
thanks for this post, it’s cathartic for me, so many idiot friends posting positively about this intimidation on fb. extra judicial punishment is never a good idea, in any form.
eemom
@mapaghimagsik:
Thank you.
JR in WV
@Gee:
You are “done with this blog” – because you disagree not with the Blogger, but with one of the commenters. One of the commenters that the blog host disagrees with extremely.
Really?
You don’t understand blogs or the internet community, do you? The whole purpose is for people with a wide variety of opinions to discuss their opinions, why they hold those opinion, why one belief is superior to another.
I’m surprised you could type that comment, actually.
I personally think the rapist in question needs quite a bit more public shaming. I do agree that the ammosexuals are wrong to be carrying, and their calls for violence seem to be over the top.
But calling this criminal out as the evil, uncaring, violent taker that he is, that’s probably helpful. I’m glad he will be signing up as a sexual offender, repeatedly. And having to live within the rules set for sexual offenders.
Cole, you keep showing new educational experiences you have had.
Amazing that you worked with Larry Starcher, who seemed to be one of the more competent Supreme Court judges we have had in WV. Not to mention working interviewing felons to prepare their pre-sentencing reports. A harsh educational experience, but probably a good one.
I learned a lot in the Navy, and got really strong doing the work expected, which is probably why and how I’ve been able to do so many of the things I’m proud of and have enjoyed the most. Building things, and helping others build their important things.
Steeplejack
@Major Major Major Major:
No one here is saying that political violence is good. The disagreement comes with “these jackasses are wrong and shouldn’t be doing what they’re doing.” They have committed no violence (so far). They are exercising their First Amendment rights, and, yes, while the signs are odious, they are probably not that different from what you’d find at the average abortion clinic protest.
Yet we have come to accept rhetorical violence on the right as some inevitable part of the political weather. But, as Suzanne said, “Some randos in front of Brock Turner’s house threaten the very existence of the rule of law? Please. The plot, it has been lost.”
Further, to your earlier (snarky) point about “political violence—good or bad” (since you decided to hang around), I was not saying that political violence is good. My point was that sometimes it happens when pressure builds up in the system that is not vented in the “working within the system” ways. And it is a signal to “the system” that change needs to happen more quickly. I’m sure no one said, “Hey, let’s get together and have a riot at the Stonewall Inn. Does Saturday the 28th work for you? Cool. Call Brian and Dennis.” But these things get ignited when the underlying frustration is not being addressed and some particular event lights a match.
As someone once said, “No individual snowflake feels responsible for the avalanche.” But avalanches do happen.
cokane
@Suzanne: It IS being changed though. Go look up national rape statistics in the FBI, there is a drastic plummet in per capita rape stats over the past several decades.
Rape rates in 2003 dropped 80% from what they were in 1973 per: US bureau of justice stats. And there’s plenty of reason to believe victim stigma is weaker now than it was in the 70’s, meaning the drop has probably been more precipitous.
We’re never going to live in a society without crime. Nor are we likely to magically halve rape stats in a year. I’m tired of people talking about these issues as if nothing is being done about them. Clearly something IS being done.
Aleta
I like the story, and I like the judge’s words. I think all of us here believe in one’s right to a defense and to appeal. I did notice that this part of the story
does not describe what usually happens when athletes are accused of rape. They’re also defended by teammates, coaches, friends, fans, their hometown, and a lot of unknown people who insult or threaten the accuser just out of ‘principle.’ The protesters, sympathetic press and open public support for this woman are still so unusual if you look further back than 4 years or so. This part is progress for this moment.
ETA Progress comes and goes though. It’s not a steady forward line.
Suzanne
@cokane: Rape is down because all violent crime is down, which is great. The reasons are many and varied. However, rape is not down more than other crimes are down, the rates of prosecution and conviction are still in the toilet, and it is still staggering how prevalent it is. RAINN and Guttmacher say 1 in 3 women will be victims, and Lisak says 1 in 16 men will commit rape. Other stats say even more. Like, holy shit. That is a big fucking problem. Still.
Suzanne
@cokane: Not to mention, we still excuse rape all the time. I mean, FFS, look at Roman Polanski and Woody Allen and even Bill Cosby, who got to have long careers and make lots of money even once we knew who they are. To say nothing of our pro athletes. Prevalence is only part of the problem—the other part of the problem is that we collectively don’t see it as all that bad.
cokane
@Suzanne: Rape is always going to be a difficult crime to prosecute, because of the nature of the crime (private, must prove lack of consent) and necessary legal protections afforded to defendants. plenty of issues out there, such as unprocessed rape kits, but the fact is, it is unrealistic to want rape prosecutions to do better than homicide or theft prosecutions.
More recent stats show a 60% decline from 1995 – 2010, with rape and sexual assault. http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fvsv9410.pdf
Again a problem with an encouraging trendline, and one that includes unreported incident estimates. Moreover, a 60% drop in rate over 15 years calls into question any researcher making claims about the percentage of the population that are or will be victims. Those that lived through the 70s for example are clearly more likely to be victims than those that were born in the 90s. So, I think it’s poor statistical reasoning to make statements like that. It’s clear that a girl born today will not have 1 in 3 odds of being raped, unless there’s a sea change in our trends.
Suzanne
I enjoyed the Tweet I read that said something to the effect of “No one burned Ray Rice’s jerseys or Tyreek Hill’s jerseys or those of the 44 other NFL players accused of rape. But you’re burning Kaepernck’s jersey. Bunch of bitches.”
cokane
Let me add that homicide fell by less than 60% during the same 95-10 period. From a rate of 8.1 to 4.8 per 100k. Only ~41% drop
Steeplejack
@Suzanne:
Because he raped the whole country! Or something. //
Steeplejack
Let me just say that even though I am semi-retired, and what little work I do is done at home, I’m still getting a bit of a holiday rush about tomorrow being a weekday but not a workday. Yay! Although I think it has more to do with the fact that I went on a massive hunter-gatherer expedition on Sunday and got enough errands done and supplies gathered that I can hunker in the bunker for most of the coming week.
Suzanne
@Steeplejack: I just think it’s really easy for a bunch of people on the Internet to sit back and tsk tsk and tut tut that violence is bad and wrong when some isolated people admittedly cross a line, but it is much more difficult to be honest about why and how that event came to pass, and what our collective failures were. You push people to a breaking point, you don’t then get to get upset when they break.
Steeplejack
@Suzanne:
Hey, I’ve been with you in this thread.
Suzanne
@Steeplejack: I know, and I appreciate it. I’m just musing on the title of the post, “This is wrong and bullshit and you shouldn’t support it” is just such an easy thing to say. This is not an easy problem.
Steeplejack
@Suzanne:
Clearly it’s not. This thread has been good, though, because it has (a) gotten me thinking about some things that I would have overlooked and (b) forced me to write down some things that became much clearer through the process of taking them from brain to “paper.”
Suzanne
@Steeplejack: Yeah, for the most part, it has been good, save for the comment that I either have to sign on to the actions of these protestors in their entirety or reject them completely. Uhmmmm whatever.
Steeplejack
@Suzanne:
Straw men were flailed.
Nelle
One out of three. How many commented on this blog have been attacked?
The man who attacked me is in prison and apparently will be there for the rest of his life. He is apparently a model prisoner. He just serves his sentence, gets out, and begins his cycle all over again. That is, until the violent sexual predator act came into existence. When I testified at the trial, he had been doing this for thirty years. I was an early target. I will not use the word victim. I refuse to be his victim.
I had moved at least 12 times, to five different states and was living overseas when the prosecutors found me and brought me back to the States for the trial. I liked their zeal, their courtesy, and I felt like the system heard and took seriously, finally, the situation. The law accommodated that.
Nothing abstract about this discussion at all. I abhor violence and intimidation. Some of those in this situation are, of course, grandstanding. Some applauding them, though, have no more f’s to give. And there is an avalanche of reasons why they are not going to be overly concerned.
Larime
Am I the only one who sees that in the picture of four people, there’s a black guy and a white woman, and two white guys? But this is just whitebro ammosexuals?
There’s more diversity in that one picture than Brock’s swim team.
Rape culture needs to be something dudebros are AFRAID to be associated with. Until they feel even a sliver of the shame and fear that their victims do, nothing will change culturally. There’s no incentive for them to.
Aleta
I tried comparing these comments to Jezebel’s. Both Brock and Palmer are wealthy hunters who claim they broke no laws and did what was culturally allowed.
Brachiator
@John Cole:
Even worse than this, sometimes even family abandons someone accused of a crime, and the only thing between them and the abyss is a defense attorney.
However, there is a right to protest, and unfortunately, sometimes that protest is going to be obnoxious and disturb the neighbors. I don’t like these goons or what they are doing, but I also bristle at the notion that there is a cookie-cutter “right way” to “make your feelings known.” It reminds me of people who insist that Colin Kaepernick should shut up and donate some of his millions to help clean up police forces.
As for other redress, as others have noted, there is a bill on the governor’s desk that might resolve some of the issues raised by this trial.
amk
@Suzanne: I admire your passion on this issue and your restraint in answering provocative straw man posts here.
Bruce K
As a matter of abstract philosophy, the whole point of a state-sanctioned justice system is to forestall people taking things into their own hands, especially since all too often, people with emotional investment in a situation tend to confuse “justice” with “vengeance”. There have been a few times that the high and mighty have had it pointed out to them that if they tilt the system too far in their own favor at the expense of the less fortunate, the responses may eventually include torches and pitchforks, and there’s a historical trend in that direction towards guillotines.
On the other hand, the convicted rapist in this case committed a vile, horrifying act, and he, his family and friends, and the judge that let him off with a tap on the wrist (I’d hesitate to dignify that sentence as a slap), seem to be deliberately downplaying the magnitude of the crime, which in current climates, compounds the vileness of the act.
But on the other other hand, people brandishing weapons and hinting at vigilante justice strike me as not very far at all from appeals to Judge Lynch, and once a society gets rolling down that road…
greennotGreen
The first guy pictured, the guy with the sign that said, “If I raped Brock…” is posing a question I think every person who minimizes rape should think about. Brock was drunk. Would it have been kinda okay, just “20 minutes of action” if some dude had dragged him behind a dumpster and fondled his junk?
Ian
@Suzanne:
I agree with you until this part
That’s is where you lost me. If you think we should stiffle free speech to solve rape culture then I do not know what to say.
NorthLeft12
@Suzanne: @Suzanne: I agree with you about shunning and shaming. However, these are basically personal actions that are not enforceable on an entire group without going down the same mob justice/fascist road that results in more damage done.
I am an optimistic guy. I think the tide is turning on rape culture, and a lot of other women related issues too. There is still a lot of work ahead, and you do have numerous allies among men that want what you want too. We [men] need to be more vocal and visible in public and in private.
geg6
I just can’t even with some of the bullshit in this thread. As a rape survivor whose rapist was never prosecuted or even questioned, fuck this noise. This protest is what happens when injustice is the norm and the victims of it marginalized and silenced. I don’t condone violence or threats but I understand it and simply don’t give a shit if Turner and his family live in fear for a while. It’s nothing compared to the life sentence his victim is serving.
NorthLeft12
@Suzanne: He was immediately charged, publicly and loudly prosecuted, found guilty, and then sentenced. Yeah, the sentence sucked which is basically the issue here. That this judge used the existing law to give him the lightest sentence possible is exactly the cause of the outrage. Why he did this is another source of outrage.
I think it is completely unfair to categorize the response of every other level of the justice system as “not taking this seriously”.
NorthLeft12
@Mandalay:
YES. THIS^^^^. A billion times this. Until the sentencing rate for rapes approaches that for other crimes [murder, armed robbery] etc., this entire argument over severity of punishment is meaningless.
daveNYC
@Brachiator: I’m OK with saying that armed people holding signs threatening physical violence is probably not the right way to make one’s feelings known.
@geg6:
You seem to have a lack of understanding of the definiton of ‘condone’.
celticdragonchick
@geg6: @geg6:
Agree. I understand what Cole is saying here. That being said, I think Suzanne is correct: if the system cannot address an issue of injustice…the issue will eventually be handled in some way outside the system in a way that will likely be bad.
celticdragonchick
@daveNYC:
Don’t give a shit is not really the same thing as condone.
daveNYC
Eh…
I’m not sure how you split the difference between being OK with someone living in fear, but not being OK for the reason they’re living in fear.
Percysowner
@Suzanne: If they were picketing with signs that said “rapist” “wrongfully set free”, etc. I would have no problem. If the neighbors decided to shun the family. I would have no problem. But the signs threaten violence, which is where they cross the line. Protest the HELL out of the guy. Don’t say “rape him” “castrate him” and DON’T bring guns to the protest. There is a lot of real estate between marginalized people accepting injustice and saying that he deserves to be harmed.
NorthLeft12
@Suzanne: Thanks for this info [re Lisak]. I was trying to google this data and was not having much success. While the data is daunting and depressing, the fact that it is receiving attention is a very good thing.
I am still optimistic.
BTW, stick with this blog. We need more discussions like this [we do have them, maybe not as often or as in depth as this] and your voice is a valuable one that I appreciate hearing.
Percysowner
@Mandalay: @Mandalay: To be fair, the BLM people weren’t asking for Clinton or Sanders to be killed, raped or hurt physically. That is what the people who don’t like this protest are rejecting. Make a sign shaming and humiliating him. Hold a vigil. Don’t make a sign saying he should be raped or castrated. Either physically assaulting people is wrong, and he should have spent a lot more time in jail for doing it, or it isn’t, in which case don’t promote it. But for goodness sakes, don’t promote violence “because he asked for it”. That’s the same reasoning that keeps rapists from being sentenced properly.
Keith G
When is it okay for a group of citizens to harass a person whom they feel got off too light? When is it not okay?
Would Suzanne and others please provide guidelines covering best practices involving demonstrations at private homes of those accused and/or convicted of crimes.
This judge clearly messed up this case beyond comprehension. Yet, is it a good thing to restrict the ability of all judges to use their “judgement”? The results of this case are painful to anyone who cares about how our legal system works. How can a response to this be crafted that does not have unintended consequences? Some of us have been pushing back against mandatory minimum sentencing laws. They distort the results of “justice” and seem to lay heaviest of the heads of the poor.
A most just system would give the convicted an appropriate and meaningful punishment. Then it would quickly reintegrate those individuals into society with appropriate supervision and/or counseling. There will always be those in the public who will find some of this way too permissive. Is it a good idea at such times for a crowd to gather to intimidate the just released offender?
Up above, John called such actions “illiberal” and they are. We liberals swear by due process for the accused, and a then due process for the convicted as they carry out the sentence. The breakdown in the State of California v Brock Turner occurred in the reasoning of the judge as he was considering sentencing. That is where group protests need to be directed.
henqiguai
@daveNYC(#181):
Disagree. I see no issue with her statement; she doesn’t condone, i.e. approve of, but given her history, just doesn’t care. I don’t condone police violence, but I often don’t care when the cops blow away someone who has preemptively started squeezing off rounds at them. There’s a difference.
Grung_e_Gene
This is wrong because it perpetuates the vigilante mythos the NRA and gun humping idiots have been trying to re-establish in the US. Either we are a Nation of Laws and legal authority or we are a lawless land where dead men tell no tales and using a gun during an incident is a get out of jail free card.
henqiguai
@Ian(#176):
I believe her comment was regarding the too often seen situation wherein a university will ‘investigate’ a sexual assualt allegation and everything drops into a black hole; occasionally with the accuser being sanctioned and the accused seeing zero consequence or pushback. No clue as to where you think a First Amendment violation is being perpetrated (if it’s the “shouldn’t be allowed to finish college at the same school”, sorry dude, that’s an inconvenience, not a Constitutional violation).
D58826
@amk: The change to the law was to the criminal statute and the state cannot retry him. Double jeopardy. Even if the law had been changed before the sentencing it would have had no effect because the law at the time of the infraction is what applies. Ex post facto I think.
With or without the change to woman could sue him in civil court. Two separate legal processes.
D58826
@Keith G:
Which of course gets to who decides what is to light. Would the protesters be happy with 9 months or maybe a year. How about 3 years. I’m sure the woman involved would like to see this guy dropped into a deep hole never to see the light of day but we don’t met out justice based on anger and revenge (or at least we shouldn’t)
And whatever justification (none in my opinion) there is for protesting out side his home, the guns are an out and out threat aimed at the family.
D58826
@Aleta: Penn State is planning an honor Joe Paterno day this fall. I think that proves the point about how we treat ‘important’ people accused of or covering up for rape (regardless of the age or sex of the victim)
WaterGirl
@rikyrah:
This makes me want to scream.
NorthLeft12
@D58826: Yeah, that will go really well. Personally, if I were a member of Paterno’s family I would ask whoever is doing this [PSU, some individuals?] to drop it.
A Joe Paterno Day will just be a magnet for protest and more conflict. Just stupid IMO.
LAC
@amk: me too! Suzanne, I hope you will stay around and be a voice here. It is a good provocative blog, but it does have its share of “me tooers” and self appointed gate keepers that can come hard without regard to what you say.
German Bula
@MariedeGournay: so true, indignation is such a cheap way to feel moral
Emma
@Mandalay: Thank you. Applause for bringing this to the forefront.
LAC
@Keith G: they did protest and he will no longer be hearing criminal cases. And if that little shit and his enabling family feel unconfortable, good. Maybe take some time to sit down with that cretin and really talk to him about the shitty thing he did.
LAC
@Mandalay: amen! And still one of the most under reported crimes. And I wonder why …
German Bula
@Bruce K: this… If proper justice is poorly served, it spawns mob revenge
Keith G
@LAC: His family did not commit the crime, nor is it fair to peg them as enablers for defending him from criminal charges (though I will grant that his father should have kept his mouth shut). I do not know what they talked about in the privacy of their own home, but I doubt it involved a pat on the back with an, “Attaboy!
German Bula
@Keith G: well, i,d be totally down for people harassing Jaime Dimon, for example. I think there are at least two differences: the power diffential (Brock, heinous as his actions were, is now being bullied), and the capacity of the harassment to bring about positive change
LAC
@Keith G: really? Because when your dad writes about how unfair it was for you to be punished for 20 minutes of fun or some such shit, I don’t think those two get the enormity of what the problem is. If you think sticking your dick in an unconscious girl is okay and daddy’s only concern is that your do not suffer and wants to take you out for a steak dinner, then I would say that a consequences free and entitled upbringing might a contributing factor.
WaterGirl
@daveNYC: The fact that you could read this from geg6…
… and respond with a quibble: “You seem to have a lack of understanding of the definiton of ‘condone’” seems like part of the problem.
Maybe it will help if I highlight some of the things that jumped out at me:
Barbara
@D58826: The victim gave what I would call conflicting signals. She was obviously deeply traumatized as she wrote in her letter and no doubt expected him to be sentenced more harshly but she had previously provided a statement that she did not want his life to be ruined. It is clear in cases of rape that many people, including the judge and the defendant, have a hard time separating predatory sexual behavior from normal sexual behavior and, I cannot stress this enough, that failure makes them inclined to protect men like Turner because of fear for themselves and their sons. Men need clear signals that Turner’s behavior was outlier under any definition and that alcohol is not an excuse, which he continues to blame.
mapaghimagsik
@NorthLeft12:
I believe it is. Buy the finest wheat. Get the best chef. Talk loudly about what a great hoagie it’ll be. In the end, you’re stuck with a shit sandwich.
daveNYC
@WaterGirl: If geg6 is OK with the family and perp living in fear, then she should own up to the fact that it’s the threats of violence that are causing that fear. Saying that you don’t support X, but you love the results that come from X is weaksauce. Own that shit.
mapaghimagsik
@Brachiator:
I disagree. If one of my family was a rapist, I wouldnt talk about what a great guy or gal they were in court. It hard, but this notion of “kin” doesn’t give a free pass on being a human being.
Mandalay
@eemom:
That claim is both false and absurd:
– 90% of acquaintance rapes involve alcohol
– At least 50% of college student sexual assaults are associated with alcohol use
– 43% of the sexual victimization incidents involve alcohol consumption by victims and 69% involve alcohol consumption by the perpetrators
– In 1 in 3 sexual assaults, the perpetrator was intoxicated
ETA: http://www.campussafetymagazine.com/article/Sexual-Assault-Statistics-and-Myths
We can quibble about what “normal” means, but with overwhelming statistics like that it is crystal clear that “normal men” do become rapists. Many “normal men” commit acts of violence and aggression, including rape, when they are drunk that they would never do when they are sober.
Surely that is completely beyond debate?
mapaghimagsik
@Mandalay:
The idea that alcohol is a factor is a problem and accurate, but I think eemom is saying it’s no excuse. At all. I drink. A lot. I like drinking. I make a killer zombie. I’m more restrained now, but I’ve been fucking blotto.
Still haven’t raped anyone, and that’s not some amazing accomplishment.
Suzanne
@Percysowner: I am in agreement with you. But I see the greater injustice as the fact that society as a whole said, “Rape? EH, wev. Shake it off.” I have a limited amount of outrage available and I’m saving it for the patriarchy, not the randos in front of Brock Turner’s house.
Peter
@Suzanne: You kind of do have to. We’re not talking about protestors in the abstract here; we’re talking about the specific protestors who are in front of us. And what these specific protestors are doing is inciting and threatening violence. If you defend these specific protestors, you are defending the threatening and incitement of violence. Period.
John Cole
The excuses in this fucking thread are mind boggling.
For fuck’s sake, the very first picture is a chalking that says “SHOOT YOUR LOCAL RAPIST.”
You can stick your “I don’t condone violence” bullshit where the sun don’t shine, because if you support these ammosexuals just having fun threatening people, you clearly fucking do.
Suzanne
@henqiguai: Yes to all of what you wrote. I don’t support a First Amendment violation, but I do support having campus rapes investigated by real police, not these university boards, and expelling someone from school if it is demonstrated that they violated norms of consent in any way, even if they aren’t actually convicted. They can finish school somewhere else. We expel people from colleges for much less.
Calouste
The Boston Tea Party was running around waving weapons and getting in on mob justice because they didn’t agree with the law. It’s as American as it gets.
Suzanne
@Peter: I have said that I support their actions that fall into the category of public shaming. I have said that I don’t support violence and have loudly, repeatedly supported gun control to make open carry illegal.
I mean, I could turn the tables and say that in this case, the one right in front of us, you support having the rapist for three months in county jail and that’s it. I mean, that’s what these protestors are protesting. That is the specific case in front of us.
Or we could all be grown ups and understand that it is possible to hold positions in between an issue, because there are multiple sides to this issue. Despite what Cole, who was not an authoritarian right-winger for no reason, no sirrree Bob, says.
Mandalay
@mapaghimagsik:
Right, But I think she was also going further and claiming that “normal men” don’t become rapists when they are drunk. Well you don’t, and good for you, but that is anecdotal evidence, and plenty of otherwise “normal” men do become rapists when they are drunk.
Turner’s example proves nothing either way in isolation; he is a just a single example, and as a jock he was statistically more likely to be a rapist anyway: less than 4 percent of people on campus are student athletes, yet they commit 19 percent of schools’ sexual assaults.
Peter
@Suzanne: Actually, that doesn’t follow at all. False analogy.
So you support protestors in the abstract, but not what these specific protestors are doing? Fine. But you don’t get to pretend that you have a different group of people in front of you just so you can hang out on top of the moral high horse. Either you support these specific people, and what they are doing, or you don’t.
mapaghimagsik
@John Cole:
John, stop discriminating against people of straw. Most have been pretty clear the ammosexuals don’t speak for them.
Do you think the chalk signs, also pictured, cross a line? Are you ready to tell BLM how to protest?
In short, the discussion for many of us had moved on.
Suzanne
@Keith G:
Easy. It’s called the First Amendment, which has been defined through law as to exclude direct threats of violence. And, as I’ve said (and said and said and said), no open carry. No physical violence of any kind.
However, I’d like you to provide some guidelines and best practices that society will be prepared to respond to in a positive manner for marginalized people to seek justice when the justice system falls down on the job somewhere along the line.
John Cole
@Suzanne: In no state in the nation is the sentence for rape the death penalty.
If noting that and stating an opposition to mob justice makes me an authoritarian, you don’t know what the word means.
These protests, as they are currently happening, does nothing to address the issue of rape, does nothing to make rape less likely, and does nothing to help Brock Turner’s victim. All it is is an opportunity for a bunch of gun humping goons who like the idea of threatening more violence to show up and carry around their weapons.
That you think this is normal, just, decent, and acceptable, serves only to show how deeply you have lost the plot. Throwing in personal attacks at me for not wanting mob justice while acknowledging Turner is a scumbag WHO WOULD STILL BE IN JAIL IF I HAD MY WAY serves as a testament to your character.
Not a very good one.
John Cole
@mapaghimagsik:
If they are protesting by running around shouting “SHOOT YOUR LOCAL COP” and “CASTRATE ALL COPS” while sitting outside the house of a local policeman, you’re fucking a right I will tell them how to protest.
mapaghimagsik
@Mandalay:
Can’t speak for eemom. But I think we’re in agreement. Alcohol is a factor, but you are entirely responsible for your actions. No “boys will be boys” due to alcohol. The punishment must be a deterrent.
That’s where I can get on board with fighting “rape culture”
Keith G
@Suzanne:
Martin Luther King Jr. comes to mind. No violence. No threats of violence. No intention of intimidation.
Suzanne
@Peter: I support nonviolent protest, but I also believe that nonviolent protest can and will turn violent when nonviolent protest is disregarded and a marginalized people live in shitty conditions for too long.
However, I don’t engage in respectability politics bullshit, and concentrate my disapproval for the protestors. Nope. Save it for the perpetrators. Oppressed people want an end to their oppression, and it was society’s responsibility to listen when they asked politely the first 63525183638 times. THAT is the threat to the rule of law.
Violence in the face of violence is ugly, but most people justify it. I mean, we fight wars over it.
mapaghimagsik
@John Cole:
So again. Chalk signs? We agree here?
And maybe these dudes are ammosexuals. I only got photos and an all-caps Cole.
Mandalay
@Peter:
It’s revealing how many people here choose to insist that this has to be a binary argument. They claim it’s completely unpossible to support the cause of the protesters unless you support all aspects of their protest.
FFS nobody here argues that if you are going to vote for Clinton you automatically condone her secretly speaking to Goldman Sachs for six figure sums. But when a female poster here points out how our society has massively failed victims of rape the discussion for some becomes a strawman about her supporting “ammosexuals”.
Suzanne
@Keith G: Malcolm X and Stonewall Inn and the French Revolution come to mind, too. I don’t like it. But it’s often more effective than nonviolent resistance. Blame the oppressor for not listening. Were violent slave revolutions unjustified?
Audre Lorde once said, “the master’s tools will never dismantle the master’s house”. The masters would do well to change their own behavior and society before it comes to that.
Suzanne
@John Cole: I don’t think it’s decent and acceptable. I think it is expected. I just don’t see a few people standing in front of a house as the existential threat to the rule of law that you do. I think that people like Brock Turner and Aaron Persky and those that enable them (which includes people who sit back and accept a shitty status quo) are the threat to the rule of law.
John Cole
@Mandalay:
And others of us, INCLUDING THE OP, who just so happened to quite specifically point out the problem, are just as vexed by the strawmen. I have no problem with people protesting rape. I do have a problem with armed goons standing outside someone’s house with signs calling for violence, and before you say they aren’t, I would suggest “CASTRATE ALL RAPISTS” counts as a call for violence.
That’s what is going on here. I pointed out specifically that this is wrong and illiberal, and, if you actually read the thread, some people here are definitely quite ok with it or willing to overlook it because reasons. Many are justifying it because the system has (and I agree) failed Brock Turner’s victim.
So nice attempt at strawman kungfu.
Peter
@Suzanne: So, you disapprove of these protestors, but think that calling them out on their unacceptable behavior is wrong? What a load of mealy-mouthed have-it-both-ways bullshit.
@Mandalay: It’s a binary argument because she made it one, by hitching the wagon of social protest to these clowns.
mapaghimagsik
@Mandalay:
Thanks for putting this down so clearly. I think it studies discussion of what to do, because if the rant is now, “think of the poor rapist”, we really are citizens of Omelas.
Suzanne
@John Cole: Actually, public shaming is really the last tool we have to tear down rape culture. People are resorting to this tactic because every other tactic has failed thus far. Asking people not to support the careers of rapists who are in the public eye hasn’t gone anywhere, we all really like our football and our Cosby show reruns! Seeking redress through the legal system rarely works. Seeking justice through universities hasn’t worked. We work to CHANGE THE DAMNED LAW and nothing changes.
The fact that you think the only acceptable response to this is SIT DOWN AND ACCEPT IT, he did his legal time, is what makes you an authoritarian.
John Cole
This makes no sense. The problem is that the rule of law was followed and needs to be changed. Your solution seems to be to look the other way when armed idiots appear to be inciting actions actually outside the law and then chiding everyone who notes that as naifs who “should expect it.”
You know. Two wrongs. Not to mention, if you oppose open carry, turning to them when it fits your needs legitimizes open carry, so you’re screwing yourself twice here.
Peter
@Suzanne: Holy shit, are you really this incapable of understanding that what these specific people are doing goes well beyond the bounds of “public shaming”?
John Cole
@Suzanne:
THIS IS NOT PUBLIC SHAMING. Public shaming would be signs that say “SHAME ON BROCK TURNER. SHAME ON A JUSTICE SYSTEM THAT ALLOWS RAPISTS TO ONLY SERVE THREE MONTHS.” Or even if the crowd all carried a sign outside his house that said “A RAPIST LIVES HERE.” That would be shaming.
These are threats and extralegal calls for violence. This is not as hard as you are making it.
mapaghimagsik
@John Cole:
Not if it’s chemical castrating. I could be on board with that.
Mandalay
@Peter:
Total fucking bullshit. She made it crystal clear that she didn’t support the threats of violence. But that doesn’t fit your agenda, so you – not Suzanne – carefully chose to falsely frame the discussion as a binary choice.
You are free to post your bullshit here, but you should expect to get called on it.
Peter
@Mandalay: She doesn’t support threats of violence, but these specific threats of violence she seems just fine with, seeing as how she’s posted well over twenty comments to this post defending them.
Suzanne
@Peter: Where did I make it a binary argument? I support their actions which fall under the category of shaming and embarrassment, and I think that’s a valid way to protest rape.
I think calling the protestors out for their behavior, when failing to acknowledge the lack of effectiveness of alllllllll of the protests that came before, is mealy-mouthed bullshit. I also see a whole lot of “that’s not how to protest rape!!!!! Give money to a women’s shelter!!!!” and similar platitudes which appear to be nice thoughts but that disregard that women’s shelters exist and STILL HAVEN’T CHANGED RAPE CULTURE.
It is dudes’ responsibility to change rape culture. It doesn’t change this way. Concentrate on Brock Turner and his ilk.
Peter
@Suzanne: you were the one who decided that any criticism of the protestors was unacceptable until you were willing to denounce every thing about them, not Cole.
John Cole
@mapaghimagsik:
i’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt and suggest you are being intentionally obtuse and are not actually this fucking stupid. Castrating someone with a knife or holding them down and injecting them with chemicals OUTSIDE legally state-sanctioned punishment is a fucking call for violence.
John Cole
I’m done with this thread.
satby
@John Cole: for the record, and speaking as a woman who also was date-raped after getting roofied, I agree with Cole here completely. Those protesters aren’t speaking for me.
I think one of the worst problems in criminal justice today is sex crimes, because we as a society treat them as (in many cases) worse than murder. In fact, I have heard people proclaim that about their molested loved ones: that their lives are ruined and it would have been better if they hadn’t lived through the rape. That’s fucked up. And not too far from the thinking that brings honor killings in less enlightened societies. We are stronger than that, with help and therapy if needed we can move past a sexual assault, it doesn’t have to ruin lives.
I learned from my dad the homicide cop that people are complex, good people can do horrible things under stress or chemical influence, and that though there are evil people, he believed most criminals can be rehabilitated. I believe that too, and the whole public shaming retributive behavior cost me plenty later in life when I dated a sex offender for a short time, because it spills over to the defender’s associates. And it’s counterproductive to rehabilitation.
Believe me I understand the pain better than most people, but the job is to fix the justice system, improve chances for rehabilitation of offenders (who were often molested themselves), and to prevent with education and human rights work the continued rape culture. Not to harass individuals despite what might be a too lenient sentence.
mapaghimagsik
@John Cole:
You’re right, John. But you really can’t go after him. Blame the gun culture. Oh, if we could just do something about that.
I do agree that the armed goon is wrong. But I’ve made my desires on gun control known, and I will write a very stern email to get the law about open carry changed. Until then, we’ll just have to accept it.
Suzanne
@John Cole: The chalk writing on his sidewalk saying “Rapist” is public shaming. The signs saying, “If I raped Brock, would I only get three months?” are shaming. The “castrate rapists” crosses the line, as do the guns (though, if we’re being precise, that is legal in that state and ergo not a threat to the rule of law). This isn’t that hard.
@Peter: Look, see, I just listed what I agree with and what I disagree with.
Peter
@Suzanne: Congratulations. That doesn’t change how you’ve behaved throughout this whole thread, but since you apparently think you’re on the side of the angels I guess you don’t care.
Suzanne
@Peter: No, I decided that criticism of the protestors for their violence while remaining silent and comfortable to a status quo which tolerates and condones VIOLENCE AGIANST WOMEN is respectability politics, hypocritical, and ultimately helpful to the oppressor rather than the oppressed.
Once again, were violent slave uprisings unjustified?
That is authoritarian, that is illiberal, and it is inhumane.
mapaghimagsik
@John Cole:
And I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that you can only think between posts and incoherent outrage is your strength and your weakness.
People have really tried to agree with you on the armed violence aspect and move the discussion forward. You’ve responded with capslock. I’ve lurked long enough to know that feature can be a bug.
I’ve heard your opinion on what should be done about rapists. I really like your post on pets.
Miss Bianca
I’d find it a lot easier to believe in the sincerity of those who “support the right to protest the system” here if these protestors were, I don’t know, showing up to picket the JUDGE who passed the sentence? The UNIVERSITY, perhaps?
But they’re not. They’re threatening violence against the individual who was, whether we like the way it happened or not, prosecuted and sentenced for the crime he committed.
Believe me, I understand the desire for personal vengeance. I have witnessed first-hand what happens to victims of sexual and other physical violence. Been on the receiving end of it myself. I’ve had serious fantasies of exacting revenge for the things I’ve seen – the lives that were ruined – that were not taken seriously by the LEOs in charge of the cases and not only were NOT prosecuted, but the victims of the crimes ended up being threatened with legal action. While the perpetrators walked off, scot-free, and are still assholes still fucking up other peoples’ lives.
So I get it. About thinking “the system hasn’t done enough to punish this perp. So I’m going to do it for them.”
And at the end of the day, I still call bullshit on this type of action. I don’t justify it by saying, “oh, well, I don’t CONDONE violence, but oppressed people are just going to erupt into violence, eventually, what are you gonna do? I don’t CONDONE it – I’m just saying, it’s going to happen. If one of these idiots decides not to stop at *talking* about castrating or murdering a rapist, but actually *does* it, well, that’s not my concern. Blame the oppressor, man!”
Bullshit. I believe in changing the system thru’ legal channels – in changing the culture thru’ nonviolent action – because in the end that’s the only way meaningful change is really going to stick.
And there’s a difference between violent action undertaken in the moment, to save your own neck or the necks of your fellows, and vigilanteism. Stonewall didn’t happen because a bunch of drag queens decided to parade around with “OFF THE PIGS” signs – it happened onsite, in response to a direct physical threat.
Personally, I’d find it hard to blame a crowd of people beating the shit out of a guy who was trying to rape someone. I do perceive a problem with a bunch of people threatening to do it after the fact.
Suzanne
@mapaghimagsik: What gets me is that people here were generally supportive of the Black Panthers exercising their right to open carry, and when people open carried in Dallas to protest the deaths of Castile and Sterling, there was no widespread vocal denunciation from liberals. It wasn’t condoned per se, but it was seen as “if it’s legal for the goose, it’s legal for the gander, and maybe this will send a message”. Yet this happens in front of a rapist’s house and all of a sudden it’s the worst thing EVAR.
mapaghimagsik
@Suzanne:
Things reach a breaking point. I don’t think it’s right, and I hope to avoid one here. I think we agree on that, even with our blog host.
But I don’t think Harriet Tubman should have worked within the system.
mapaghimagsik
@Miss Bianca:
From a rational, root cause perspective, I agree. It is the smarter move. But the Judge didn’t rape an unconscious woman.
Suzanne
@mapaghimagsik: Agreed. If the system is broken, you can’t work within it. This argument also ignores the fact that people have been trying to work within the system to change this and have been ignored. When that happens, your only choices are to accept a broken system, or to go outside of it. Master’s tools, master’s house.
The fact that ostensible left-wingers fall more on the side of accepting the broken system is disappointing. “Well, three months was within the sentencing guidelines. Sucks, but oh well, whaddyagonnado?!?!”
satby
@Suzanne:
that’s not what people are saying. Stop pretending it is.
Suzanne
@mapaghimagsik: This criticism also ignores the fact that there is a vocal protest against the judge to get him removed from the bench permanently (I believe he voluntarily stopped hearing criminal cases under this pressure). And the university got protests, too, there’s pictures of people wearing shirts that say something like “Stanford protects rapists” or something. And yet rape culture is still a problem.
Suzanne
@satby: That is absolutely what people are saying. That his sentence was lighter than they would have liked, but that it was within the law, and that there is nothing else to be done here but hope that he feels remorse.
I have a problem with that.
Suzanne
@Suzanne: Dude is also trying to get out of having to register as a sex offender, as noted above. So we are left with “hope he feels bad and write some sternly-worded letters”. Pardon me if I think that response is insufficient to the scale of the problem.
Miss Bianca
@Suzanne: And vigilante action is going to somehow FIX rape culture? Calls for extralegal punitive action is lynching. Lynching IS one of the master’s tools. It’s not going to dismantle the master’s house.
ETA: And fixating on one perpetrator isn’t addressing systemic problems either. So saying, “well, people have tried all these legal means of protest and they’re not working, so maybe showing up outside some guy’s house and threatening him is the way to go!” is a bit wacked.
satby
@Suzanne: well then you have a problem with the entirety of American jurisprudence, because that’s how it works. We don’t have to like it, and we can work to improve it, but going after an individual, no matter how reprehensible his actions were, after he was tried, convicted, and served his sentence is vigilante behavior.
As I said, these protesters don’t speak for me as a woman who was assaulted.
satby
@Miss Bianca: and I second everything you have said as well.
satby
@Suzanne: he can try. He won’t succeed. And we don’t punish wishes.
Suzanne
@Miss Bianca: I think that a show of strength is often really effective in moving social change forth. I think that history has shown us that bloody revolution can be effective in moving forth freedom. The founding of our own country, for God’s sake. More recently, Malcolm X did not take the entirely nonviolent route and was effective. Sadly, some people will only listen to calls for social justice when there is a threat of muscle behind it. I wish that weren’t so, but it is.
Once again, nonviolent protest has not been effective in tearing down rape culture. This action probably won’t do it, either, but it is disingenuous to condemn these protestors for not doing things through approved channels when approved channels have been insufficient.
Suzanne
@satby: American jurisprudence punishes some crimes more seriously than others. For example, this dude spent less time in jail than other people who had an ounce of weed. I can strongly think that is bullshit. And many of those petty criminals will be marked by their convictions for the rest of their lives. This is bullshit. Save jail for the Brock Turners of the world.
What should have happened is, long before this event occurred, we created a culture of consent and respect, so that when a violation happened, the legal system moved quickly, his parents didn’t seek to defend him with their bullshit entitlement about his swimming greatness and his love of steaks, and he got ten years to really think about himself and what he did. And we wouldn’t watch NFL football and we wouldn’t give Oscars to Roman Polanski or Woody Allen. We wouldn’t let rape kits go untested. If we really, really cared, we would change. We haven’t, because we don’t.
mapaghimagsik
@Miss Bianca:
Isn’t vigilantism operating outside the law? Has a protestor pictured broken one? If they have, they should be punished. If not, I it’s a failure of our laws and a gun culture.
As is being said with our rapist, if we don’t like what’s going on, we work to change the law.
I’m all for stiffer gun laws.i don’t like what the armed protestor is doing.
John Cole
It’s going to be sickening watching all these new changes to laws be rushed into effect without adequate thought and then watch them be applied to 17 year old black kids who sleep with their white 16 year old gf.
John Cole
Antiabortion activists feel like the law has let them down and they have to take matters into their own hands. Discuss.
Miss Bianca
@Suzanne: No, what is “disingenuous” is to ignore the fact that these protestors are far more interested, at least according to the way they’re expressing themselves, in getting away with rape and castration themselves than protesting injustice.
Maybe you’re in a safer and more secure physical space than I am. Maybe you can’t imagine ever being in a position where someone decides that they’re justified in going after YOU, legalities be damned. Maybe you just don’t ever see this type of action turning on someone like you. If it did, would you just say, “oh, whoops – guess I’m just one of the eggs that gets broken to make the new social omelette – I’m cool with that!”?
Steeplejack
@John Cole:
Jesus Christ, the only “new change to the law” that happened is that California patched a loophole so that now the rape of an unconscious or unresisting person doesn’t get more lenient sentencing than “regular” rape.
And people are not so much calling for new, more draconian laws as complaining—rightly—that certain offenders, e.g., rich white boys, are routinely receiving sentences at the extreme low end of the range.
Suzanne
@John Cole: My body, my choices. Easy.
Once again, considering that women live under constant threat of sexual violence and the legal system and culture at large have not changed despite nonviolent pressure in all the forms you listed above, what do you propose we do to achieve our equal place in society? More importantly, what do you propose that men do, considering that men are overwhelmingly the perpetrators of sexual violence? Discuss.
henqiguai
@Keith G(#226):
Not long before his assassination Dr. King was reported to have mused on the slow pace of non-violent protest and perhaps some of the firebrand leaders had a point. Note, too, that it’s usually the set of options, do it ‘easy’ or things get messy, that leads to the easing into the ‘easy’ resolution.
John Cole
@Steeplejack: I want the laws changed. In a methodical, thoughtful, and appropriate manner. I can want that and also be concerned about legislators rushing to react and making things worse. See, every piece of drug war legislation.
Suzanne
@Miss Bianca: I don’t discuss my personal experience or that of my closest when seeking to stay within debate, because that is ultimately all just anecdata, but I can assure you that that is not the case.
Also note that no violence has occurred at Brock Turner’s house. The only violence that has actually occurred in this case was the assault that Turner committed. I am more than thrilled if Brock Turner cannot get a job because no one wants to be associated with him, no one wants to be his friend, and he and his shitty parents leave the country and change their names. Until they make honest reckoning, I am all down for that.
Miss Bianca
@mapaghimagsik: Yeah, but as long as showing up outside someone’s house with a gun is NOT against the law, you’re cool with it? OK, then.
The thought that violence, or threats of violence, against men is somehow a legitimate response to male violence against women – or that that is somehow going to change a culture of violence – may be emotionally satisfying, but it’s intellectually fucked up. Reminds me of the old bumper-sticker logic: “Why do we kill people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong?”
Suzanne
@Miss Bianca: I think the argument that I am making is that threats of violence are illegitimate, that the legitimate tactics have been ineffective thus far, but that the rape culture of the oppressor bears more responsibility for violent outcomes than the protestors do.
The only way out of this that doesn’t end badly is for large-scale social and legal change, quickly. I contend that that begins with remembering who the real enemy is. The real enemy, the biggest threat, is a culture that isn’t interested in women’s genuine equality in the public sphere. A few jackasses in front of Brock Turner’s house are small potatoes.
John Cole
When do you deem him worthy of having a job?
Suzanne
@John Cole: When he makes honest reckoning. (As I very clearly said.) Acknowledges that drinking isn’t the problem, that his male entitlement to women’s bodies is the problem. Gets mental health treatment. Admits his wrongs publicly. Makes significant sacrifice of time and/or money to help victims of sexual violence. Writes some sternly-worded letters seeking stricter punishment for rapists.
Miss Bianca
@Suzanne: First of all, a few jackasses outside Brock Turner’s house is not ‘changing the system’. Second, the argument you’re making is that if violence happens to an individual in this case, it’s more the fault of “rape culture” than the fault of the individuals perpetuating the violence. Funny, I can see that same argument being used to justify a rapist’s actions. I mean, if we’re going to justify violence or the threat of violence on societal ills and all.
That’s one of the reasons I call “bullshit” on this type of argument.
Mandalay
@Suzanne:
This. As long as he and his family want to paint poor Brock as the victim he can remain a pariah. The rapist lied his ass off in court. Until the rapist wants to come clean about what he did he can rot.
Suzanne
@Miss Bianca: I think that if Brock Turner ends up on the business end of violence, it’s ultimately his fault. I think if George Zimmerman ends up being killed by someone pissed about what he did to Trayvon Martin, it’s ultimately Zimmerman’s own fault. And I think society bears a shit-ton of responsibility for creating an environment in which some lives don’t matter. You push people to the breaking point, don’t be surprised when they break.
prob50
NOTE: Judge Persky was reassigned to a non-criminal court position, albeit at his own request. Hopefully he won’t be handling anything weightier than parking tickets. Excessive leniency probably wouldn’t do much harm in that area, as long as he applies it across the board.
Miss Bianca
@Suzanne: People who are actually interested in social justice are usually not the ones running around killing or hurting other people who commit crimes of violence. If only because they’re smart enough to realize that that’s not only *not* going to solve the problem, but that they’re going to cause a shit-ton of trouble for themselves and others if they do.
And in cases where they do, I’m not going to shrug and say, “society’s to blame.” Your mileage evidently varies.
Suzanne
@Mandalay: That’s the thing: Turner could get rid of all of these protestors right now. His parents could sell their house and donate the money to a women’s shelter. Turner could make a statement admitting that he is responsible and that he is going to dedicate himself to educating others about the horror of rape culture. He could accept his sex offender status instead of fighting it. He’s not doing any of that. He’s not doing anything that makes anyone think that he has truly atoned for what he did, regardless of the legal outcome. In short, he doesn’t feel shame.
NorthLeft12
@Suzanne: Okay, you are starting to lose me here. People are identifying what happened, and in almost every case are saying they do not think it is right and want to see something changed. Ie. sanction/removal of the judge, a higher minimum sentence, a change in the law to elevate Turner’s specific offence to be more serious, or an appeal of the sentence [too late for that I guess].
For you to pretend that most people are just shrugging their shoulders and moving on is completely disingenuous.
Suzanne
@Miss Bianca: It does vary. I think that injustice begets injustice. And I firmly, absolutely believe that we are mutually responsible for each other. We do not get to create unstable, unfair situations and then wash our hands of the entirely predictable results. A toxic environment doesn’t come from nowhere. We all bear collective responsibility for that.
I blame slaveholders and racist white society for violent slave uprisings. I blame homophobic society for Stonewall. I blame the monarchy and upper classes for the French Revolution. The consistent element here is power. If power is used to protect perpetrators of unfairness rather than victims, then they bear the responsibility for the breakdown of society.
Barbara
Apart from ptetty much making up sentiments that no one here has actually expressed, you seem to be excusing violence while claiming to be appalled by it. If someone kills Turner or Zimmerman you may think it’s their own fault but the perpetrators are going to be prosecuted without regard to what you think. I would not assume at all that acts of vigilantism as you describe them will bring justice to marginalized people. More likely it will only serve to distract from the real work of getting justice for rape victims. BLM was not helped by acts of vigilantism in Dallas or Baton Rouge.
John Cole
@Suzanne:
In a thread full of stupid shit, this is by far the dumbest thing you’ve said. That won’t get rid of the protesters. They aren’t there because of the house. They are there because he is in the house. If they sell the house and move to another house, THE PROTESTERS WILL MOVE TO WHERE HE IS THEN.
Not to mention, we don’t punish entire families when one person does something illegal. There’s enough shit in the bible and the historical law that I am not even going to discuss this at length. I just hope someone in your immediate family doesn’t do anything criminal, but if they do, I will defend you from the internet morons who think you should live in poverty because of what they did.
You’ve lost the fucking plot. I know your pride and ego are so dug in now that you won’t go back through and look at the heaping pile of illogic you’ve dumped on us all here in this thread, but you really need to stop typing and think a bit. It’s not as complicated as all the specious and, in many cases, offensive hoops you have created. If people had shown up with signs that just said “shame” or “end rape culture” or “change rape laws now,” I would not have even blinked as it would have been appropriate (although unfair to all the neighbors whose only crime was living next to Turner).
The facts:
Brock Turner is a rapist, even if that wasn’t the name of the crime he committed.
He lied in court (as many/all criminals do).
His family supported him and begged for leniency (as often is the case).
His sentence was, in my opinion, way too lenient, but it was within the sentencing guidelines.
He has to register as a sex offender, but has the legal right to try to challenge that.
The laws should be changed so this sentencing doesn’t happen again.
Ammosexuals are now issuing threats and menacing his neighborhood. This is good for no one.
Some otherwise decent people are misguided and think this is a good thing. They are wrong, I have clearly explained why. Now, they are so dug in, that they are just saying crazy things. They’ve even compared the peaceful protests in the aftermath of police shootings to these heavily armed lunatics carrying signs about castrating rapists.
I’ve lost more faith in human beings, because even the good ones can be fucking blinkered violent idiots when it suits them.
The end.
Suzanne
@NorthLeft12: Disagree. Cole’s words:
The most vehement condemnation on this post is against those who are admittedly acting like douchebags but who are following the law standing in front of Turner’s house. I see concern for a hypothetical black 17-year-old prosecuted for consensual sex with a white 16-year-old. I see very little on this blog in terms of genuine interest in changing rape culture (I’ve suggested protesting the NFL and their 40 players currently accused of rape.). I see very little concern for Turner’s victim, or for the actual (not hypothetical) women who are raped, one every two minutes. In this case, the remaining acceptable options appear to be to continue with the same tactics which have thus far proven ineffective, or to accept the outcome and move on. Pardon me if I think those options are not good options. There are no good options.
Suzanne
@John Cole: They are in front of his house because he has not paid for his crime. His parents have not paid their moral debt for being horrible fucking people who raised a rapist and then acted like they were the real victims. They could all make restitution and they choose not to. That is why they have protestors in front of heir house. I feel badly for their neighbors, but not because of the protestors. I feel bad for them because they have a violent criminal and enablers as their neighbors.
I’ve lost faith in you. The end.
John Cole
@Suzanne:
Reposted without comment.
I’m really done here.
NorthLeft12
@Suzanne: You are once again assuming that John is satisfied/resigned to/with the outcome. That is patently not true from what he said originally and repeated again and again. No wonder he is speaking in caps lock as you are being completely thick about this.
What John said was that the protestors threatening violence and carrying weapons are ILLIBERAL. Not illegal. ILLIBERAL. Liberals [IMO] do not carry weapons into a protest or other highly charged emotional event because they are supposed to be non-violent. Liberals do not threaten people with violence because [surprise] they are supposed to be non-violent.
It really is as simple as that.
NorthLeft12
Okay, this is one of the all time stupidest and fucked up things I have ever read on here. Suzanne, you are unofficially designated as a troll. Kudos for dragging this out so long. You fooled me.
Barbara
@Suzanne: How do you know whether they have made restitution? That is a serious question. Do you know the victim and have special insight?
Miss Bianca
@Suzanne: Now you’re just getting holier than thou. You have absolutely no reason to suppose that none of here is interested in changing rape culture because we don’t happen to excuse violence or the threat of violence. You have no reason to believe that none of us cares for the victim of the rape. You have no justification whatever for these assertions. For that matter, for all I know, you’re doing nothing to change the culture yourself except excusing violence as an acceptable response to it.
“The French nobility were to blame for the French Revolution”. Yeah, but the vast majority of people who died in the Terror were *not* nobility, or clergymen – they were middle-class and working-class schlubs who pissed off their neighbors in some way or other. That merchant accused of hoarding may or may not have been guilty – and even if he was guilty, did he actually deserve to die? Even the “Lanterne Attorney” came to the conclusion that violence sucked as a solution when it was his turn to die at the guillotine. And the response to the Terror was an oligarchy that led to an Empire. Not exactly the sort of social change I’m looking forward to.
Suzanne
@John Cole: I am a parent. I have a really important, maybe even sacred, responsibility to raise good people. Turner’s parents didn’t, and they doubled down on it by pissing and moaning about his swimming scholarship and not eating his favorite steaks. I hope they feel abject shame for being shitty people and they take actions to uphold their part of the social contract. They deserve our scorn until they make an honest reckoning for their own failures.
@NorthLeft12: I think liberals also recognize unfair, unjust social problems and work to undo them. As I said, I think that starts with identifying the real enemy, which is a culture that tolerates rape and violence against women. Violence against women happens literally every minute of every day, and doesn’t earn anywhere near the condemnation that these armed tools (who so far have not hurt anyone, thank FSM) did from the good people of this blog. In fact, let’s all watch some football.
Suzanne
@Barbara: I believe that his parents have not made restitution. They have written to the judge asking for leniency for their son in a way that proves their disgusting entitlement and lack of concern for rape victims. His father made a statement about how his son wanted to speak up about binge drinking and promiscuity, not about rape, proving that neither of them get it. They have made no public statement accepting responsibility or trying to make redress to the victim or any women that I have read and I have been following this case. They have funded their son’s legal case. In short, they are supporting rape culture.
@Miss Bianca: I do plenty in my off time to support social justice efforts. I also happen to write a lot of strongly-worded letters. Guess what? Nothing has changed. It’s exhausting. I don’t engage in violence, but I don’t lose sleep when what came around went around, either. As I said, I have a limited amount of outrage and I’m directing it at what I consider the most important targets.
Suzanne
@Miss Bianca: That’s not the social change I want, either. I want nonviolent resistance to work. I’m just increasingly concerned that it does not. The primary responsibility for that is borne by all of us who refused to make needed change in society until guns were drawn.
Rape culture is a cancer, and yet we’re freaking out over a mosquito bite.
prob50
@Suzanne:
Your best comment on this thread. You know, what really lit my fuse on this case was the father’s “20 minutes” comment and the judge’s apparent deep concern that Turner’s future might be damaged. When you combine that with an extremely light sentence I cannot imagine the level of rage the woman must have experienced. It was exasperating just to read them. For the judge to comment about his concern about the “Damage” to Turner’s future prospects really showed a huge disconnect in his understanding of the role genuine, appropriate punishment needs to play in a fair and civilized society Future “Damage” is a large part of the way civilized society reacts to people who violate or otherwise harm others because they just felt like it or that decided it was OK not to control an impulse because they had a buzz on.
Now that said, I DO believe in Redemption, but I also believe that it requires taking honestly taking responsibility and the other steps Suzanne stated above.
And no, I really, really don’t believe threatening and intimidating serves anyone very well, particularly the presence and pointed display of firearms. All it does to Turner is to promote a bunker mentality, which will leave him as the same, sad-assed jerk he was before his conviction.
GaryF
@Suzanne: a Baylor football player who was neither white nor rich also received a 6 month sentence for rape. Those are the sentencing guidelines. If this is unacceptable, then take it upon yourself to be a change maker. Complaining that other more influential and important people have to lead the way just makes you sound whiny and impotent.
AxelFoley
@Suzanne:
I’m with Suzanne 100% on this. Especially this quote.
Suzanne
@prob50: I agree with 100% of your statement. I don’t really think that intimidation is likely to be effective. I don’t think anything is likely to be effective, though. I think women and allies have tried the letters to judges and lawmakers, have tried appealing to conscience, have tried donating to women’s shelters….and nothing has worked. Nothing has worked because, ultimately, it’s not seen as that big a deal. Women’s bodies are just plain worth less in this society. It is enormously disappointing.
As I said, the best way out of this, the way that achieves just ends without violence, is to create a culture of consent and respect as part of our mutual social contract and for each of us to uphold it. Men should talk to their sons and the younger people they know about the vitality of consent. No more rapists earning millions of dollars as pro athletes, no more Oscars, no more venture capital until someone honestly atones. These are the kinds of things that should make us all sick. And when a violation happens, society and its legal arm should make sure the punishment is equivalent to the severity of the offense. We are all responsible for each other. The fact that none of this has happened is the true tragedy.
My trollish self is done here. I’ve got shit to do.
Suzanne
@GaryF: I have taken the nonviolent course of protest for years on this issue, as have thousands of other women. Ultimately, men are responsible for ending this. White people are responsible for tearing down racism. The able are responsible for accommodating the disabled. Straights need to get over their homophobia. Sorry. That’s the price to pay for privilege.
Daulnay
Cal guildelines:
“A conviction for felony sexual battery subjects you to two, (2), three (3) or four (4) years in the California state prison and a maximum $10,000 fine.”
The judge used his discretion to lower the sentence to 6 months from the sentencing guildlines’ low end of 2 years per count. The prosecutor asked for 10 years (more than one count). The judge’s sentencing was an abuse of his discretion, the reasons boiling down to ‘he’s a privileged white athlete, it would be a shame to ruin his future’.
cokane
@Suzanne: Nothing has worked? Again, this is only true if you ignore the precipitous decline in overall rape cases. These false characterizations of the problem are counter productive. In a generation rape rates have declined somewhere between 80 to 90 percent. It’s patently fucking absurd to say that “nothing has worked”
LiberalTarian
@Suzanne: It might be because I have such a strong shame reaction, but given time and support, I think she will recover. Aside from victim blaming by the defense lawyer and some people who will never wake no matter what the situation, I think she is strong and resilient and she will come out. Traumatized and hurt yes, but based on her letter, not destroyed.
Brock Turner will never recover. The person that he was is dead, and he will always be known for what he did. His parents lost their son in some very concrete, real ways. Anyone who has seen their child ruin their life (or have their life ruined by mental illness) never stops grieving. It will always be his fault. That is a heavy burden. In a story book world he would find redemption, but I think the experience will corrupt him and make him a bitter angry man. He *was* drunk. Look up any discussion on alcohol and it will go on and on about relaxed inhibitions and how drinking thinking is more than being able to walk straight. Drinking thinking isn’t just what a friend of mine once said, “a drunk man does what a sober man wants to.” A drunk person will do incredibly stupid things because they are drunk. Just like I can’t just say, well, that guy was drunk when he got on the freeway and killed all those people, I can’t excuse Brock Turner for being drunk. But I can see how he destroyed his life.
LiberalTarian
@eemom: It’s called compassion.
I’m sorry you feel that way. I can’t see the world through such hatred. That doesn’t make me stupid.
I hope you feel better soon.
John Cole
@Suzanne:
Dylan Klebold’s parents were pacifists. Have they atoned enough for his sins, or should we force them to sell their house?
WaterGirl
Hearing people say, “hey it’s a lot better, only half as many women are being raped” makes me think of “hey, maybe the white was built by slaves, but they were well fed and had a roof over their heads at night”.
Wow, that’s really super.
I’m not saying i agree with everything suzanne said here today, but if your main focus isn’t to pick apart what she’s been saying, it’s possible to see that Suzanne made a lot of really good points. I, for one, am glad Suzanne hung in there and I’m really surprised to see someone I respect calling her a troll.
I’m willing to bet good money that the percentage of women on this blog who have been raped or have been active in rape crisis services, or trying to prevent rape, or raising awareness or donating money related to rape prevention or rape services is higher than the percentage of men. I find the assumption that Suzanne hasn’t done anything related to rape except to spout off her opinion here today pretty insulting.
I know Cole and many others here care that women are being raped. But it’s shocking to me that this whole discussion has pretty much be premised on “yeah, so she was raped and wasn’t treated fairly by the system, but what’s happening outside this guy’s house is really wrong” There’s something wrong with the picture if you’re waiving your hands at the whole “she was raped and the system failed her” part and then moving on to the discussion of HOW people are acting toward the rapist. And attacking Suzanne for wanting to focus on women who are being raped or attacking her for the way she wants to focus on that.
I am reminded of what Jesse Williams said in the speech that I loved but that seemed to shock so many people. It was something like “you can tell us how we should be doing the Black Lives Matter stuff when you can show that you’ve been active around these issues”.
This has been a total ramble on my part, apparently my frustration makes it difficult to communicate well. For what it’s worth, Steeplejack’s comments in this thread pretty much describe where I stand on the content issues that were discussed here today.
/rant over
WaterGirl
@John Cole: Cole, the issue I have with the parents is that they think their special snowflake should get to sexually assault an unconscious woman and get away with very few consequences because he’s a swimmer and a rich boy. It’s pretty clear to me that the parents are part of the problem. That’s what the rage and anger at the parents is about, I think.
I would love to see this rich entitled prick experience all the natural consequences of his behavior. I do hope no one hires him and he has to live off of mommy and daddy’s money. I hope his friends drop him like a hot potato, but I imagine they could be entitled, too. I’ll change my tune on all that as soon as he genuinely figures out that he is a piece of shit who treated a real person like less than human. When he experiences true remorse, then I hope he can turn his life around.
WaterGirl
May I just state that baud hasn’t even been gone for a day and the blog is (temporarily) going off the rails?
LAO
@WaterGirl: I’m not really sure why I’m chiming in, a day late and a dollar short, but it’s been my experience as a defense attorney that family members usually support other members of their family, after conviction. It’s not about a sense of entitlement but a human reaction when someone they love has done wrong. And we, as a society need for that to happen, because convicted felons need a support system when they are released.
Miss Bianca
@WaterGirl: I’ve fucking HAD it with this.
I’m a woman.
I’ve been raped.
I know women who have been raped.
I’ve worked with them.
I’ve worked for Planned Parenthood. I’ve listened to women tell their stories on the hotlines, wondering what to do when they’ve been raped. Hell, I’ve held women’s hands while they’ve fucking aborted their rape babies.
I’ve been there. I’ve hated. I’ve railed against the injustice of it all. I’ve plotted revenge.
I’ve worked on my demons. They’re still there. They’ll probably always be there.
And I say to them – and to Suzanne and anyone else here who wants to argue the toss – that TWO WRONGS DO NOT MAKE A FUCKING RIGHT.
And that the way to address the violence in the system is NOT to cheer on expressions of personal violence against perpetrators of said violence or excuse it by saying, “oh, why are we so worried about violence against *this* person who in my opinion richly deserves it when look at *this* violence over here!!”
Now. Go ahead and accuse me of hand-waving away the violence that this asshole perpetrated. Tell me I don’t fucking care about the woman who was raped. Lecture me about how little I must know whereof I speak.
Despise me if you dare.
WaterGirl
@LAO: Yeah, but don’t they help them by saying “our johnny was wrong, and he’s so sorry, and with the love of his family, he’ll be better from now on, we promise”? Not by saying, “hey, our little johnny only assaulted this girl for 20 minutes, and she was so drunk she probably didn’t know what happened anyway”. YES, I am clearly paraphrasing to make a point.
LAO
@WaterGirl: Not in my experience. Pretty much seek to minimize little johnny’s actions. In my practice, I never take the views/statements of victims or their families personally. They want to spit on me or rail in court, they’ve earned that right. On the other side, I afford the same understanding to the parents of the perpetrators. It’s a human response that cuts through racial barriers and economic levels of society.
Berto
@Gee: ,,
Since you’ve spelled it out so black and white, I fully support this mobs right to freedom of assembly.
WaterGirl
@Miss Bianca: Of course I don’t despise you.
I didn’t hear Suzanne saying she was condoning threats to the family. I didn’t hear Suzanne saying two wrongs make a right.
Personally, I have no problems with this kid and his family being shunned and humiliated. I am also against threats of violence under any circumstances.
WaterGirl
@LAO: I am not a defense attorney so I’ll have to take your word for it.
My only interactions with the courts have been on jury duty and as an advocate for rape victims. What stands out for me is the predictability of the rapist’s defense – I didn’t do it, but if we did do it, it was consensual. I still shake my head at that.
Miss Bianca
@WaterGirl: I dunno…maybe it’s just me, but I find the line between “of course I don’t condone violence” and “on the other hand, if this person *does* happen to meet with violence he’s brought it on himself, and I blame society for that anyway” to be a mighty thin one.
John Cole
@WaterGirl: ” “hey, our little johnny only assaulted this girl for 20 minutes,”
That’s not what his dad said. His dad was making the argument not to judge his son for 20 minutes out of the totality of his life. It wasn’t an attempt to say the assault only took 20 minutes, so no big deal.
Even then, it was a stupid argument, because it only takes 1 second to pull a trigger to murder someone, so why should we judge the 20 minutes less seriously in contrast to the rest of his life. The whole fucking reason we are judging him is for that 20 minutes that he was convicted of assaulting that poor woman.
But there’s no need to make shit up about it.
WaterGirl
@John Cole:
I wasn’t making shit up about it. I remembered it wrong.
WaterGirl
@Miss Bianca: I have to say that if Zimmerman dies as the result of gun violence it won’t break my heart in the way it does when these people are murdered by police for doing absolutely nothing wrong. I think he likely will have brought that on himself. That doesn’t mean I want someone to shoot him, however. I didn’t wish for Scalia to die, but I have to confess I was kind of relieved when i heard the news.
As for Suzanne’s comments, I think I must have focused on different parts of what she said than some other people did. Like I said, I don’t agree with everything she said, but I did think she made some good points about rape and society.
Suzanne
@John Cole: Stopped back in and not going to rehash everything because WaterGirl has basically said everything I believe here, but your example of the Klebolds is interesting. Sue Klebold did a lot of work on herself, went to a lot of therapy, wrote a book analyzing her failures, and is donating the proceeds to charity. She never diminished the pain of her son’s victims and their families. In short, she atoned by making a significant effort and sacrifice.
Contrast that to Mom and Dad Turner, who said that their son’s failings had to do with binge drinking and “promiscuity”, complained about the effect this has had on them, and who have made no such public statement of self-analysis.
Yeah, I have no problem saying that the Turners have some work to do. Instead, they’re seeing themselves as victims.
eemom
@LiberalTarian:
That’s not compassion. That’s fucking rape apologism. I find that so appallingly obvious from everything you’ve posted on this thread that I see no need to argue the point.
I hope you don’t rape anyone soon.
Suzanne
@WaterGirl: EXACTLY. If Zimmerman meets a sticky end, I won’t be that sad about it. Not like I was sad when Trayvon Martin died. I don’t want anyone to kill him, but I also think that counter-violence is inevitable. Maybe that’s a failure of my empathy. No justice, no peace.
eemom
One other point: I find it — well, I’d say hilarious, if there was anything funny about it — that Mr. Liberaltarian posted what he did at #112 above, and Ms. Vigilante Justice the Warrior Princess not only had no problem with it, but AGREED with it.
Maybe the problem is that some folks are too stupid to find their own asses with a flashlight, a seeing eye dog and a GPS unit.
Original Lee
I agree with Cole that threats of violence are inappropriate. I agree with Suzanne that not dealing with rape culture directly leads to assholes going too far. I think that peaceful protest and public shaming are things that should be happening now. The thing is, for how long? Strictly speaking, Turner was convicted, sentenced, served time (even though it was totally not long enough by any reasonable person’s standard), and he’s out. He’ll have to register as a sex offender for the rest of his life. Morally, it’s not enough. Therefore, he will be followed around by protesters for a while.
Incidentally, did anyone else notice that he was let out in time to get back into condition for swim season?
At this point, I have two questions.
1. Could Turner have refused early release? Could he have said, “I really did a terrible thing and I’m very sorry and I think I should serve my full sentence to prove it”?
2. At what point does a convicted criminal get to go back to a relatively normal life? Isn’t part of what our system of law is supposed to do is to give the felon another chance after his punishment is over? Not that this douchebag has done anything to indicate that he’s sorry he did it, just sorry that he got caught. Public shaming right now is completely appropriate, but for how long? To use the example of another rapist athlete, Mike Tyson isn’t followed around by protesters, IIRC.
Suzanne
@eemom: Actually, I realized that I misread his statement after commenting, but the thread had moved on. I happen to agree with you here.
Suzanne
@Original Lee: Even if he couldn’t refuse early release, there is a lot that he and his parents can do to prove that they understand the severity of the offense and try to make it right. And I happen to think that our public shaming doesn’t go on long enough for this crime. I mean, the dude that killed Cecil the lion saw more social fallout here. But I see your point—at some point we need to move on. It is just easier for everyone else to do that if the perpetrator acknowledges the wrong and tries to repair it.
eemom
@LiberalTarian:
Just to recap, this is what you said:
Anyone want to explain to me how that is not apologism, I’m all ears.
Fucking idiots.
Original Lee
@Suzanne: Oh, absolutely, it would be much easier to focus on other things if Turner and his family were behaving differently. I would not have reposted a meme about not letting my son grow up to be Brock Turner if Brock Turner had demonstrated a smidgen of remorse or self-awareness.
I do wonder, though, if he could have refused early release. IANAL, and I do not live in California.
mapaghimagisk
@Original Lee:
That’s a great question, especially when its pretty clear the sentencing was unjust. I don’t think I’ve heard anyone say it was, but that going outside of the law is a bad thing, which, again, we pretty much agree on.
More importantly, at what point does a rape victim get to go back to a relatively normal life?
In short, I think you give up certain things, and nothing is ever normal again, for many people. Should the rapist be able to get a job? I think they should after time served. I think income over a certain level gets hit for a tax to benefit women’s shelters.
I don’t think they get to contact their victim. Ever — or at least at the discretion of the victim. I don’t think you get to do the talk show circuit and talk about how you were mistreated. Book deals? nada.
I’m torn on the sex offender registries, as they have been abused. I’d like to think it’s to protect potential future victims, which seems like a worthwhile goal. I do think having armed yahoos around your house is way out there — but we have to change the gun laws for that — not to mention really punish vigilantism. I think we all agree that’s a dark road, but don’t quite agree where the road starts and what to do about it.
mapaghimagisk
@eemom:
I can’t. Anymore than I can explain this logic:
1. Hey, you don’t like the rapists’ sentence, well, everything was done according to current law, and if you don’t like it, change the current law
2. Hey, that guy with the gun, following current law, be angry at him! That’s wrong, even though its following current law.
Again, all for changing current gun laws, so that such intimidation won’t happen. They should be changed.
The other argument I find interesting is:
1. You can’t tell what is going on in Brock’s family just by what they do and say.
2. From this photograph, I know these guys don’t care about rape, but just want to wave their guns around.
Given that, if they were in my neighborhood, I’d ask them what’s up — if I thought it was safe to do so.
Its interesting to see where BJ sits on stuff like this. I was talking to my other half about this is the hard stuff to talk about, because the answers — if you can call them answers, aren’t easy. They’d rather talk about the whole stands up/sit down during the national anthem thing. Like that’s a hard call.
Original Lee
@mapaghimagisk: I think the victims of violent crime never really completely get back to their old normal, but they do create a new normal. I was mugged at knifepoint and roughed up a bit because I only had $60 on me almost 30 years ago, and I still have some – I guess aftershocks is the best word. Other than getting me out of jury duty for certain criminal cases, there is no real upside to what happened to me.
My mugger was caught the following week for grand theft auto and convicted for that, and has done his time and been released. I assume he is still alive somewhere, and I sincerely hope he’s been able to live as a normal citizen. For about two or three years after my assault, I really wanted him locked away for life, but over time I realized that was kind of over the top for a mugging.
So should sentencing be based on the impact on the victim? Absolutely. Should we lock criminals away for life because they’ve ruined the lives of their victims? I think there are some crimes that deserve that. Is rape one of those crimes? I think for some kinds of rape, yes. For other kinds, I think at least 10 years would be barely adequate. JMO.
Barbara
@eemom: I don’t think Brock’s biggest victim was himself. For one thing, comparative suffering is a highly suspect endeavor, as if we have the right or the ability to judge, and for another, we really can’t know. But as to the fact that many men like Turner don’t actually think what they are doing is wrong — this is absolutely true. My college age daughter has an ongoing interest in research on the psychology of men who rape in social settings of the kind perpetrated by Turner and those who don’t when, pretty much, they all have the same opportunity. A low percentage of men perpetrate a disproportionate share of rapes. Many of those who do think, crucially, that they are like the other men. That is, that they are normal — that they are doing what all men would if they had the chance. There are so many facets of what we call rape culture that it’s probably impossible to pin down exactly why men who rape think this way — things specific to their own status likely play a role. In trying to change this, I basically see shaming as a waste of time — not illegal, not wrong in and of itself, just not likely to persuade those we need on the right side of this work to understand why Brock Turner, and not alcohol, is culpable for what he did. IMHO, what needs to happen is for the not-Brock-Turner males of the world to recognize the Brock Turners as the reprehensible outliers that they are. This is where the judge failed. In some form or fashion he bought into Turner’s narrative, that he was a normal guy who overstepped boundaries as a result of excessive alcohol consumption. To the extent that this is how men see this they wrongly fail to differentiate themselves from the Brock Turners of the world. The role of alcohol is complex, but in other areas of criminal law, we have tuned it out completely. Many domestic abusers only commit abuse when they are drinking. But most men who drink don’t abuse their spouses. And we could go through many other kinds of crimes. Turner had a record of being sexually aggressive with women on multiple occasions. He wasn’t normal. He isn’t like most other men. Men need to see that. And, by the way, if they know that they tend to get similarly aggressive with women when they drink then they need to stop drinking because they have a big problem.
LAC
@WaterGirl: watergirl, thank you!! So sad to come back to this thread and see the same shitty reaction to suzanne ( sadly not surprising) I admire her for hanging in there and you for a great righteous comment.
cokane
@WaterGirl: name one other widespread social ill that has been cut in half over the past two decades?
Homicide? Nope. Drug addiction? Nope. Police shootings? Nope.
Suzanne’s essential point — that normal avenues have been exhausted and fruitless thus people are right to seek extra judicial solutions — is belied by empirical reality.
Moreover, anecdote — the Turner case — never trumps aggregate data. It’s telling how much people lean on emotional and non-rational arguments to reject these basic realities.
WaterGirl
@cokane: I will say again: Half is not nearly good enough.
Suzanne
@cokane: Empirical reality is that at least 20% of women in this country will be the victims of sexual assault in their lifetimes. Other stats say the percentage is higher. And the conviction rate is under 2%. If you don’t see that as a massive social failure of staggering proportion, then I don’t know what to say.
Rape has dropped as all violent crime has dropped. I think that is great. What I don’t see is a straightforward connection between societal response and the drop in crime. The reasons for the drop in crime are many and varied. It is abundantly clear to me that it is still a staggering, horrifying problem. For example, gun crime is also near record lows. And yet I support further gun control efforts, because it is still far too prevalent. All of that is proven by empirical reality.
mapaghimagisk
And 20 minutes.
I see there’s a parallel being drawn around pulling a trigger.
I don’t think I need to point out there are hundreds, if not thousands of points when one could stop in 20 minutes.
And yes, 20 minutes is long enough to completely ruin someone else’s life, and your own in the process. This is not a child here. This is an adult, who can make adult decisions.
John Cole
@Suzanne:
I’d need to see some empirical data on that. I see people say things like 97% of accused rapists never go to jail, which is a really confusing use of statistics. Accused by whom. The statistics we need to see are what percentage of people accused of sex crimes are charged, and what percentage of people charged with sex offenses are convicted.
If the conviction rate is under 2% of those charged, there are some serious questions about prosecutorial efficacy that need to be addressed If it is for people “accused,” that’s a meaningless statistic because anyone can accuse anyone of anything. Hell, I had an idiot on twitter (assholester) “accuse” me of being a pedophile repeatedly. Thankfully, I was never convicted, for obvious reasons.
mapaghimagisk
@John Cole:
The statistics alone on rape kit backlogs are pretty daunting.
Here’s something that might help.
https://www.rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-system
Suzanne
@John Cole: Here is some info from RAINN.
Here is some great information from Lisak. Of particular note:
celticdragonchick
@John Cole:
That gets real tricky, since prosecutors often decline to file charges in rape cases and we do not have any way to collect data on that thanks to our (non) system of reporting things to some authority who might collect the data in the first place.
I do know that we have had real problems here in NC with rape kits sitting for years without being tested. My spouse just finished her degree in forensic biology and this is one subject that will have her hair on fire if it is brought up…
Also see: local high school/college boys shouldn’t have their careers ruined…
Book on exactly that right here.https://www.amazon.com/Missoula-Rape-Justice-System-College/dp/0385538731
celticdragonchick
Why am I in moderation?
cokane
@Suzanne: Rape has dropped MORE than homicides have dropped. No other criminal trend has declined as much as rape+sexual assault. Rape is ALWAYS going to be a difficult crime to prosecute. There are some rational solutions out there, but this hysteria about an issue — that has one of the best trendlines of anything in the US — is misplaced. And frankly, reveals an authoritarian streak in certain people.
As I’ve said before in a previous post. You cannot throw out statistics like “20% of women will be raped in their lifetimes” when the yearly stats are PLUMMETING. That stat remains high because of the awful rape statistics we suffered in the 70s and 80s relative to today. The simple fact is that a woman born today has something around 10% or less odds of being raped in her lifetime than a woman born in the 60s. What other social malady can we say that about? What even comes close to this progress?
And yet you refuse to allow for any optimism on this issue. Just demands for more government power, more policing, fewer defendants’ rights, and fucking pro-vigilantism. That’s not someone who wants solutions, that’s wallowing in despair.
mapaghimagisk
@cokane:
Since we all seem to be breaking out with statistics, perhaps you could provide some that show how the yearly stats are plummeting, especially in relationship to other crime.
celticdragonchick
@cokane:
[citation needed]
I think you might mean reports of rape rather then an actual decline in rape.
There is nothing at all I have seen to suggest that actual rape has declined at all. If anything, internet stalkers (like Chuck C Johnson…not to be confused with Charles Johnson at LGF) and their ability to doxx and harass female students etc who report rape have incentivized silence.
mapaghimagisk
@celticdragonchick:
All good things in moderation?
cokane
Again I reiterate what i said above, over the same period (1995-2010), rapes dropped 50% faster than homicides (a ~60% drop vs 40% drop). to scoff at this progress as trivial, to fail to understand that these trends are continuing, is to simply refuse to assess reality
cokane
@celticdragonchick: no i don’t, I linked to a bureau of justice statistics report that estimated total rapes, including unreported rapes.
eemom
I have this to say: any allusion to numbers, percentages, or statistics of any kind on any subject is meaningless, and proves nothing, without citations to the specific source(s). As should be obvious to anyone with two brain cells to rub together.
cokane
also victim stigma is less today than it was decades ago (Chuck Johnson is not a fucking household name). I have no way to empirically prove this, I don’t know that anyone does. But I lived in 80s and 90s, consciousness of this issue is stratospheric today by comparison
cokane
@eemom: the links are on this page, feel free to find other excuses to not read though
cokane
@mapaghimagisk: since you’re jumping in on a long running conversation between Suzanne and me, perhaps you could ctrl-f my name and read the whole fucking conversation first?
cokane
@WaterGirl: Your feelings aren’t an argument. Nor do they point to a solution.
Suzanne
@cokane: Here’s an AP article indicating no drop in rape since 2005.
I interpret this information to be evidence of a still-very-large and intractable problem.
eemom
@cokane:
But you then need to ask, on what are the estimates of “unreported rapes” based?
This isn’t rocket science, folks. This is just doing the necessary work of distinguishing reliable factual evidence from skewed bullshit and other forms of irresponsible statistical manipulation. aka knowing your shit. It’s not glamorous, and can be downright tedious, but it’s what you need to do to have any credibility on issues like this.
cokane
@eemom: it’s investigation headed by the Obama’s Department of Justice. It’s no doubt flawed. Doesn’t mean you can reject the data. Most importantly, it is apples to apples comparison. If you can find evidence that the study skewed results in certain years, please put that evidence on the table. Otherwise you’re just hand waving and saying “stats are bullshit!” because you cannot use them to score what you say.
What’s fascinating about this debate is how much it exactly mirrors Trump and Republicans fear mongering about crime and terrorism. Government statistics are made up! Or skewed! This is a crisis! Government has failed! Up with vigilantism!
Authoritarian bullshit.
cokane
@Suzanne: So one five year stretch of sameness negates a larger multi decade trend of decline? This is the logic of climate change deniers.
Suzanne
@cokane: No, it doesn’t negate an overall pattern of decline. It does, however, indicate that the problem is still significant and has not been affected by efforts to reduce rape during that time. The problem is still a BFD, in other words, and significant raising of awareness of the issue during that time hasn’t reduced it further. In short, it looks like meaningful progress stalled out. I contend that this is a frustrating reality.
LAC
@cokane: how about you responding to the evidence out there as to underreporting of this crime, which would effect any stats? I feel like you are trying so hard to cut and paste as a way to shut down any discussion here. Yes, awareness is there, but the stigma of rape is also there. There is still a blame the victim mentality. It is still a humiliating process to go through. Those factors effect the stats.
Maybe you should stop with the stats and try listening. Cole doesn’t want to do it, but it doesn’t mean you can’t. Not everything he writes is gold and needs to be defended to the bitter end.
John Cole
@LAC: WTF did I do? All I asked for was some meaningful stats and explanation of what we are actually examining. Being accused of rape is not the same as being charged with rape and not the same as being convited of rape and not the same as raping someone and it never being reported, and there are people out there who work with this data- spend their lives on this data, because it is important for us to be informed.
Guess what- that matters, and it’s out there.
Some of you all are just knee-jerk assholes.
eemom
@cokane:
“Otherwise you’re just hand waving and saying “stats are bullshit!” because you cannot use them to score what you say.”
I did not say stats are bullshit. You (1) miss the point and/or (2) are an idiot.
I said you need to pay close attention to the SOURCES of any stats you rely on, and how they are compiled; because when stats are reliably compiled and used responsibly, they CAN and DO prove things; however, they are also subject to being manipulated to support lies.
I’d provide examples, but I wouldn’t want to strain your itty bitty brain too much this late in the evening.
LAC
@John Cole: from the person who wrote a screechy capped pity post about some unapologetic dick who got off with a light sentence for RAPE having some people not letting him forget it? Now, that is rich.
Suzanne came in here, didn’t blow smoke up your ass, and you have had a bee in your bonnet ever since. She has been insulted, been accused of supporting vigilante violence, etc. The knee jerk asshole reaction didn’t start with her.
John Cole
@LAC: Oh, it’s alternate universe night.
PatrickG
This entire thread should be preserved for posterity as a classic “Dear Muslima” argument. We can’t care about _____ because _____. With an extra-special dash of “ends justify the means”.
I’ll also note that this blog has devoted no less than nine front-page posts to how fucked up the sentencing/the judge/the parents were in this case. I stopped counting after the first page of “site:balloon-juice.com “brock turner” rape”, one of which results simply linked to the front page.
Really, if this is what happens when Baud goes offline for a bit…
Aleta
Thanks Baud
alhutch
@Barbara: Barbara, Judge Aaron Persky also went to Stanford and was captain of the men’s lacrosse team. In short, he might have seen a younger version of himself in Brock Turner.
LAC
@John Cole: you know, you are right. I thought it was a blog with a variety of opinions. But I know now it’s “John, you are 100% right” night.
Vox actually did an interesting video concerning the number of reported cases of rape (DOJ info) that occurred during brocky boo boo’s three month stay. 75,000. Sad and probably more than that.
Good night. ?
John Cole
@LAC: What are you talking about. There are plenty of diverse comments here.
I just don’t know what universe you are on that the OP was a “screechy capped pity post about some unapologetic dick who got off with a light sentence for RAPE having some people not letting him forget it,” because it wasn’t any of those fucking things.
Then later on in the thread it got derailed into insanity. I’m still wondering how alleged liberals can agree that the parents of a convict should have to sell their house as punishment because reasons.
Suzanne
@John Cole: I don’t think they should have to make meaningful amends. I think they should choose to make meaningful amends. As parents, they had one job, and they utterly failed at it. Their son committed a horrible crime, and they refuse to acknowledge it and they are helping him avoid the consequences insofar as their money allows. They expressed more concern about Mom Turner being too sad to decorate her new house than they did about a woman’s life. They fucked up at parenting and broke the social contract in doing so.
That said, there are many ways they could seek to make this right. They don’t have to sell their house. They could organize fundraisers for rape crisis centers or to process languishing rape kits. They could do what Sue Klebold did, and write a good book honestly assessing where they went wrong and donate the proceeds. This isn’t about the law, this is about when you do wrong and refuse to atone for it. Even more than the rule of law, the social contract makes our society work. Violations can be dealt with by peer pressure, and I think they should.
eemom
@Suzanne:
This is an absolutely absurd assumption to make. Yes, sometimes fucked up kids are the product of fucked up parents who fucked up as parents. But also sometimes, for whatever reason, fucked up kids emerge from parents who did their utmost at that “one job,” and are heartbroken at the results.
Granted, what we’ve seen of the parents in this case doesn’t speak well of them….but that’s in the context of the situation that they’re in now. You have no right, and no basis, to judge how their son’s upbringing did or did not contribute to the crime he committed….much less — way, WAY less — to pronounce that any crime committed by any kid is proof that his parents failed at their job, as you did upthread.
The arrogance is mind boggling.
Barbara
@Suzanne: Sue Klebold wrote a book more than 20 years later.
satby
@eemom: and this too. So many assumptions on this thread, one of the most appalling I’ve ever read here.
Barbara
@alhutch: I think it’s a fair supposition that he saw images of himself or his friends sitting in front of him.
Barbara
@eemom: Speaking from an observation of parents of a man who committed an even more horrendous series of acts that resulted in the death of multiple people, many parents simply revert to parental protection mode because they have no means — at least initially — to process what has happened, particularly if it constitutes their first interaction with the criminal justice system. It takes a while to accept the role of criminal justice when it comes to your offspring. The father’s reaction is, for me, the most understandable part of the whole proceeding.
John Cole
@Suzanne:
You fucking scare me. If this is liberalism, I want the fuck out.
Berto
Freedom of Assembly, Cole.
As Gee wrote above. You either agree with it, or you don’t. You can’t have it both ways.
Barbara O'Brien
@Suzanne: “There has been a movement to recall the judge, and there is an attempt right now to pass a law to mandate longer sentences for rapists in California. Both appear to be going nowhere.” Then work harder. There’s a big difference between protesting a miscarriage of justice and encouraging a vigilante lynch mob. One is not the other. Protesting the powers that be to recall the judge or change the law, good. Threatening the life of a criminal because you didn’t agree with his sentence, not good. This is not difficult.
Aleta
About the bill that would change the law in Ca.
In Ca, forcible rape (or penetrative assault) already requires mandatory denial of probation. But the law now says that a rape of a man or woman who’s unconscious cannot be considered forcible, since forcible rape requires resistance, and the unconscious (or very drunk/drugged) person did not resist. Besides the problem with this reasoning, this loophole is thought to have a couple of effects that have to do with rape culture.
It encourages rapists to use rape drugs or try to get someone dangerously drunk, which endangers a victim even more, because the penalty is less. It also makes it seem (for example to students) that raping a drunk or unconscious person is not as bad.
(Used to be that if the victim had been drinking, there was no use even reporting or prosecuting. And even now defense lawyers still focus on the victim’s drinking habits (past and present) to make him/her seem at fault.)
The loophole has been a problem way before Brock Turner. The new bill disregards the state of the victim, and anyone convicted of “penetrative sexual assault” would be denied probation.