So we lost a gamble, I think. We’ve been driving a 2002 Odyssey. It’s a boat but I have to say the capacity has come in useful a lot, including during my move to Kzoo and lots of long road trips.
Last spring we paid for $2,300 for misc. and sundry repairs, including engine tuneup, new brake shoes and pads, new tires, and a bunch of other stuff I can’t remember.
This week we wound up paying another $900 for a new battery and starter and some other stuff.
(Yeah, our repair guy is pricey. But he’s utterly reliable and does great work. No, he’s not the dealer.)
We’ve decided that we’re not going to pay for the upcoming transmission flush? (every 100,000 miles) and we’re also not going to wait for the transmission to fail. So, come the spring we will get a new car. Clearly, we took a gamble on the car lasting another year or two, and clearly – having paid $3,200 in the last year of its life – we lost that gamble.
So questions:
1) At what point should you give up on your aging car, esp. if it’s your only car? Note: I’m grateful it didn’t break down during one of the long trips – I think that’s one of the things we paid the premium for – although I did get cheated out of a pizza when the starter broke this week. :-(
2) What car should we replace it with? This time we want a smaller car but still with as much cargo room as possible. Our repair guy says Suburus are okay but overpriced on the used market. He likes the Pontiac Vibe (same as Toyota Matrix), which is a hatchback. It looks great but might be a tad too small for us.
Thanks for your input!
TaMara (HFG)
Well I have a Soul (but I wouldn’t recommend one older than 2014 and it should be a Plus or Exclaim). It gets ok gas mileage, it fits two Great Danes easily, but no cargo. But it also easily fits a 6 ft bookshelf when the backseats are down (an easy to do thing). Seats 4 adults very comfortably, 5 if one is a kid.
My friend has a Honda CRV – 2012 I think and it holds a lot more than mine and also has easy to fold down seats, etc. Gas mileage is close to mine (about 30 mpg)
That’s all I got. :-)
ETA for clarity
Botsplainer
Think about the things you haven’t done to it and the likelihood that those repairs will be done in the next 6-18 months. If the value of those likely repairs exceeds the value of the vehicle, then it is time.
Hillary Rettig
@TaMara (HFG): These kinds of concrete measures (6′ bookshelf, etc.) are quite useful – thanks.
I also think that henceforth all volumes should be measured in dog units – two Great Danes, etc. :-)
Mike in NC
Traded in my 2004 CR-V when it had 205K miles on it, because I knew a bunch of expensive repairs were coming due (brake job, auto door locks broken, etc.) and the dealer gave me the full Kelly Blue Book value. Got an excellent deal on a 2014 CR-V because they needed to make room for the 2015 models.
Hillary Rettig
@Botsplainer: well, I guess the question is how to do that. how do you predict what you will need? and how do you figure out which part is likeliest to fail?
frosty
I’m giving up on one now because I don’t trust it any further than I want to get towed. I’ve unloaded them after ~$2K in repairs more than once, too. You can check the Kelly Blue Book or NADA prices and if your repair is more than the car is worth, that’s the definition of “totaled”.
But basically it comes down to how much you like it, how much you trust it not to leave you stranded, and how much you expect it to cost in repairs.
Hillary Rettig
@Mike in NC: you did better than we did, obvs. any tricks? why didn’t you turn it in a year earlier, for example?
wenchacha
Scion Xb is supposed to be a good car for a long-term. If you can find a goof used one, might be a decent car.
MazeDancer
Suburu’s are not so over-priced. There is good reason Suburu owners are the happiest and loyalest. (Had my Forester since 2001, still fabulous.) They last. And don’t require a lot of maintenance. And certainly not more of a premium than the money you spent this last car year. If you see a nice Suburu that fits your needs and budget, don’t ignore.
But maybe your car guy can help you. Maybe a customer is thinking of getting a bigger/smaller/newer car and wants to sell the one that’s been under his care. Also, people’s lives change. Little old ladies stop driving, people consolidate households and only need 1 car. Maybe you can give him a finder’s fee. You’re going to have him check out any used car you consider anyway. So if he knows the car, that part won’t happen.
Maybe he can then rec your car to a kid that’s car savvy, can handle the maintenance, and needs cheap. Recoup some of your maintenance investment.
NW Phil
1) I still love my ’91 Mazda but I’ve replaced the engine, so that’s cheating. And I have access to other cars.
Otherwise I wouldn’t go beyond 150k miles or 10 years for keeping a car.
2) My brother loves his Matrix and they are roomy. Subarus are overpriced in the used car market except for the Legacy sedans, and they have huge trunks with fold down rear seats.
Your mechanic is very expensive. Check the cartalk website for others in your area.
Hillary Rettig
@frosty: >You can check the Kelly Blue Book or NADA prices and if your repair is more than the car is worth, that’s the definition of “totaled”.
good benchmark.
Brachiator
I don’t know. I would check out Consumer Reports and maybe even a local car talk radio show, if there’s one in your area. One thing I really get from the better call in shows is that you really have to know what kind of car you like, what fits your needs and driving habits, not what others like or prefer.
I also note how often people call back and note that a make or model they initially excluded turned out to be just what they were looking for.
Hillary Rettig
thing that makes it tricky is that the engine appears to still be in great shape – not much rust either.
Yet another Jeff
I’d never do a transmission flush, just a drain and refill.
As far as the rest, I have a 1980 Monte Carlo and a 94 Regal GS…I got the Buick two years ago to have a modern daily driver and I’m still marveling at 1994 technology….
Gustopher
As a rule of thumb, you should hang onto a car until it becomes an embarrassment to your family, friends and neighbors. (So, a 2002 Odyssey should last about a week… *rimshot*)
Two to three times the length of the loan seems like a good estimate, actually, with “whenever it starts needing a lot of repairs” being the determining factor.
That reminds me, I should replace my car.
Maxwel
Love my 2013 Ford Escape. There are several other brands that have a similar look. They’re called crosssover SUVs.
Yet another Jeff
Basic rule is, unless the car is True Love, if you’re spending less per year in repairs than you’d be spending on payments, you’re in good shape.
frosty
@Hillary Rettig: Predictions are easy for tires, pretty easy for brakes, exhaust, suspension,radiator, battery, normal wear and tear where the useful life can be measured. Not so easy for surprises. Like having the tranny go south or the heater start to leak. Or the engine computer system start doing funny things.
And once you’re rusting out it’s time for the heave ho. OTOH, I had a rusted frame member fixed and replaced rusted out rocker panels, but that’s ’cause I really liked the car.
And of course it got totaled not long after sinking the $$ into it. :-(
gbear
I’m driving a 2009 Pontiac Vibe that I bought used in late ’09 for $13k. It had 32k miles then and I’m just under 50k now (I don’t drive much). Mine has a manual transmission that’s a little fussy but I got used to it, and otherwise I really like the car (oh, and the killer blind spots when changing lanes).
I know they have a bad rep for their transmissions, but I would consider buying another one if this one got damaged.
randy khan
You can ask your car guy about the likely upcoming repairs, with the understanding that it’s a bit of a guess and could end up being low, as a way of gauging whether it’s better to keep the old car or get a new one.
And FWIW, given new car prices, $3-$4K in expected repairs is not necessarily in the range where you should think a new car is required. (YMMV, quite literally, but amortized over 10 years, with interest on a car loan and regular maintenance, a new car can easily cost an average of that much a year.) And a key point here is that what you’ve spent already is sunk cost, so it really shouldn’t go into the equation.
frosty
@Hillary Rettig:
All engines are in great shape, better than the ones I was rebuilding in the 70s. They’ve been bulletproof for at least 20 years now, any make or model. When was the last time you saw someone rolling down the highway trailing smoke from worn out rings and valves?
Betty Cracker
I generally think of it in terms of cost of repairs vs car payments, so by that metric, you didn’t do too badly. Good luck!
xenos
I put eur 6, 000 into my aging (185,000 km) citroen diesel this spring. It was a full work up, though, and I am hoping to get another 2-3 years with minimal expense out of the car. The Eur 6, 000 is equivalent to the VAT on replacing the car, and it seemed smarter to pay my local mechanic than to pay it in taxes.
jacy
The Boyfriend has been driving the same car for 27 years. Right now he’s replacing the clutch. But he’s a car guy — he bought another of the same model at auction to use for parts. He’s an outlier.
As for recommendations, do not get a Pontaic Vibe. It’s a terrible car. Had one. I ended up wanting to see it crushed into a tiny square and shot into the sun. Poorly designed, uncomfortable, terrible to drive.
My absolute favorite car was a diesel 5-speed VW Golf GTI. Got 50 miles to the gallon in town. Handled like a dream. Amazing amount of space for the size. Terrifically fun to drive. The one downside is they are hard to work on. But when I’m in the position to buy another new car, that’s what I’ll get. I got 400,000 miles out of it before it became more expensive to repair than to move on to another car.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
Sorry you had to spend so much on your Honda. I could tell you about the $6k I spent at the dealer on my 2004 VW 1-2 years ago if it would make you feel better. ;-)
$3k sounds like a lot, but remember it’s only 6-12 months of new car payments.
Cars are (almost) always an expense (never an “investment”). Whether it makes sense to keep doing the repairs vs buying new(er) really depends on your circumstances. As long as you can get parts, you can keep a car running indefinitely if you want to. Is it easier for you to budget for a car payment than a “big” repair bill? After 3-5 years, you may need tires for any new(er) car you get, of course.
If you’re happy with the Honda, don’t think that the automatic choice is to get rid of it. AFAIK, automakers haven’t found a way to substantially increase the gas mileage of big minivans. Electric ones are still a ways off.
Before we bought my VW Jetta wagon we test-drove a Matrix . I didn’t like it (my recollection is it seemed too van-like to me, poor visibility, acres of hard plastic). J has had a couple of Corollas (the Matix underpinnings). They’ve been Ok (she got 200k miles out of her 1993; she has a 2000 now), but they economize by using lots of plastic bits (inside and outside door handles, one-piece washer fluid reservoirs, etc.) that eventually break. If things like door handles suddenly snapping off in your hand annoy you, then it may be something to consider.
HTH a little. Good luck!
Cheers,
Scott.
randy khan
@randy khan:
On the recommendation front, my household is a Subaru and Acura household. My wife has been buying Subarus since the late 1980s, and they’re workhorses. I’ve been buying Acuras since the mid-1990s, and since one of them more or less saved our lives when someone ran into the back of it at close to highway speed, I’m disinclined to buy anything else (and they don’t seem to need many repairs).
Mustang Bobby
I’m still driving my 1988 Pontiac 6000 LE Safari wagon with 250,000+ miles, but it’s now classified as an antique and it stays in the garage except for shows. My daily driver is a 2007 Mustang which now has 115,000 miles and aside from a new tranny has been a great ride. Neither of those are what you’re looking for, Hillary, but as a car guy, I have seen most of the new cars and I’d recommend looking at the Subaru (even though the one I had in 1984-1988 was a lemon) or anything from Honda. They have great reliability records and hold their value over the years. I’ll be at the Miami International Auto Show this weekend and I’ll report back if I find anything else worth looking at.
jacy
@gbear:
The Vibe we had was also a manual — drove like crap. Every time I got out of the car, I felt like I needed a stiff drink. (And I loved driving my five-speed Golf.) And the blind spots were a real problem for me. I felt like I was rolling the dice every time I changed lanes. Hands down, the worst car I ever drove. Did I mention how much I hated the Vibe?
frosty
Recommendations: My wife really likes her 2011 Ford Edge crossover. We’ve had good luck with Mazdas -1990 Miata and 2005 Mazda 3. The worst ones I’ve had* (sorry @jacy) for both repair costs and getting stranded have been VW Jettas, 1998 and 2001. My son’s Audi was also a Hangar Queen.
Had good experiences with Dodge and Chrysler minivans, too.
* Well, the Bugeye Sprite and TR-3 weren’t the most reliable either, but that’s a little different.
MattF
The last straw for my old car was when it developed a new noise. Not a good sign in an old car. Lasted 16 years. And then I got a new one.
Newer cars have various gizmotronic features, the most helpful in my new car has been the passenger side blind spot camera. If I was buying one, I’d look for a car with that.
ETA: Both old and new are Accords.
Hillary Rettig
@MazeDancer: all good advice, thanks. avoiding Subes could be penny wise / pound foolish.
Darrin Ziliak (formerly glocksman)
What’s your budget?
When I replaced my 1992 Cutlass in 2009, I bought a 2008 Kia Spectra with 20,000 miles on the clock for 10 grand.
The car still had 3.5 years and 40,000 miles of bumper to bumper warranty left when I bought it.
That’s more than most new cars come with today.
The only repairs I spent money on were routine maintenance (oil, brakes, tires, battery, etc.) up until I had a seizure while driving last October and totalled it out after hitting a bulldozer.
The only warranty repair needed was replacing the TPMS sensor in one of the wheels.
Frankly I think I came off better with the used Kia than a new Ford.
Hillary Rettig
@wenchacha: i dig Scions. I’m kind of tired of boring cars.
Hillary Rettig
@Yet another Jeff: classics!
it’s probably a drain/refill; I said flush by mistake
? Martin
Most people have the wrong attitude about cars. There are no good car decisions. There are bad car decisions and worse car decisions, and recognizing that will help you see things a bit better. Cars are incredibly expensive, rapidly deteriorating assets, that incur incredibly high ongoing costs that almost nobody properly accounts for when they buy.
Consider a new car – median price $33K. Assume you’ll own it 100,000 miles, as you see is about the typical life at the high end (most people sell below 100K, but 100K is hardly unusual). Consider that you will drive it at an average of 40MPH.
100K miles at 40MPH means that car will last you about 2,500 hours, or $13.20 per hour to acquire. Add in about $4/hr for gas, another $2/hr for insurance, and another few dollars per hour on average for service and maintenance, car washes, and all of the other external costs of ownership, and you come out at about $20/hr to own a new car. That’s a lot. Now, you’ll get some of that back when you sell, but not much – maybe $2. So, when you think ‘new car’ also think ‘$18/hr’.
For a lot of people, there are a variety of better ways to get there. A used car, that you turn over even every year or two, saves you a lot on initial depreciation (and tends to still sell for a decent bit) and typically reduces your insurance outlay at the same time. Maintenance could be better or worse depending on how you approach it – sell it before it needs tires and buy a new car that maybe doesn’t need them, where new car owners tend to be much more attached to their car and put in maintenance that doesn’t really pay off. Additionally, at $18/hr does it make sense to buy the SUV when you really only need it to haul big stuff once a year? Instead buy a Prius that will save you hundreds or thousands of dollars in gas and maintenance and put those savings into renting an SUV or a truck when you need.
Everyone’s situation is a bit different, but we tend to treat cars with great emotional attachment and a sense that they will in some way pay off. They don’t. Ever. And that emotional attachment, as nice as it can be, often comes with an emotional cost elsewhere because money isn’t available to take a nicer vacation or do some other thing, or in disappointment that the vehicle is a bit of a money pit and didn’t last as long as you wanted. Cars are probably the worst socially acceptable spending we do.
Oh, and never, ever take out a car loan. Throwing good money after bad. If you need a car (and most people do) buy something used you can afford, save your money, and replace it with something better later. If you are unable to save, work on that – a loan is not a savings plan.
frosty
@Mustang Bobby: I’ve got my eye on a Mazda 3 hatchback, manual tranny. 40 mpg highway, which is about the best you can get non-hybrid. What do you think?
ETA Replacing a 2000 Sable (mom’s car) and a 2001 Jetta. I’ve been driving 2 cars for awhile because of reliability issues.
Hillary Rettig
@Brachiator: >I also note how often people call back and note that a make or model they initially excluded turned out to be just what they were looking for.
interesting. we’re pretty clear on priorities: reliability, cargo room, comfort, in that order.
i drove an old Mercedes for a while and LOVED IT. so comfy and quiet. but not enough cargo area (although the trunk was big for a sedan) and also hella expensive to repair (although I mostly dodged that bullet).
Hillary Rettig
@Yet another Jeff: thanks – also useful!
Hillary Rettig
@Maxwel: will check out the crossovers – thanks.
Scout211
I have a 2010 Honda CR-V with almost 130,000 miles on it. I love the car and it has been the most trouble-free car that I have ever owned. However, I don’t think the cargo space is particularly roomy. The newer model has a slightly larger cargo capacity, but if you are going for a crossover AWD vehicle, you should probably look at the midsized models.
Hillary Rettig
@jacy: my brother in law had a GTI (DON”T call it a Rabbit or whatever, I learned) that he absolutely loved.
VW’s have a rep for breaking down a lot. Has that been your experience?
jacy
@frosty:
Yeah, we’ve had three VWs and that’s my one caveat — repair costs. First you have to find somebody who works on VWs, then you have to basically remove the entire engine to get to any of the moving parts. My ex drives a Passat station wagon, and he’s had a lot of trouble with repairs, which I never had with the Golf. Basically the only thing that I ever had done was clutch replacement — but that was only twice over the life of the car.
Driving a Volvo now, which is a great car, but comparatively boring. But I’m at the stage of my life where reliable, comfortable, and boring are things to be devoutly wished…
My daughter just bought a brand new Veloster. Too small, but perfect for her. The one thing about her new car I will henceforth find indispensable? The interior backup camera. Those things are awesome.
Mustang Bobby
@frosty: Mazdas have a good rep, too, and with a manual — assuming you don’t do a lot of stop/go traffic and have a good left knee joint — it’s a good choice. Can’t beat the mileage for a non-hybrid. (The only time I’ve driven a Mazda 3 was in the Caribbean. It was a manual with right-hand-drive. It was a lot of fun.)
Avery Greynolder
Once I own a car, I target 10 cents per mile of long term repair costs. You can think of it as reinvestment. Your $3200 should be measured against miles used / expected use rather than against time.
WereBear
We live in an area with extreme weather, can afford only one car, and reliability can literally be a matter of life or death.
So we buy an new/inventory leftover and trade it in when the warranty expires. One fixed payment every month. Works for us.
Ruckus
@Hillary Rettig:
You can’t accurately predict when a car will die or cost so much in repairs that putting it out of your misery would be best. You can predict the odds though as most affordable cars are sold in large enough quantities that statistics actually work. That doesn’t mean that your car won’t go 300,000 miles with nothing more than normal maintenance. BTW that right there is an issue, normal maintenance. Transmissions and engines, like brakes and tires wear out. Everything wears out. How you treat it, how you drive it, how close everything was to the original design, etc, etc, all counts as to how long it lasts. Consider that you’ve driven this vehicle for 14 yrs, probably at the most it’s been paid for for 9. Factor in your costs over the lifetime of it and divide by the miles and you will probably see that the cost/mile is pretty low. Example, in 2006 I bought a 1998 van with 120K miles on it, for $3K. I’ve put $2K into it so other than gas it’s cost me $5K. The mileage was horrible 12-13 but I didn’t drive it much. I just sold it for $2500. So it cost me approx $280/year to drive. The gas adds about $1100/year for a total of about $115/month. I bet you’ve done pretty good cost wise. But any car with 250K miles is on that list that says, “You will spend money on me, like it or not, count on it.” Some will require less of a token of your appreciation, some more, but they will require it. Decide if it’s worth it or not, do your homework about something else (that’s what the internet is for) and find one you like. Someone else won’t like it but you are the one that has to live with it and pay for it.
Hillary Rettig
@? Martin: as a native New Yorker I’m personally not very enamored of cars (or driving), so your analysis makes sense to me.
really replace it every couple of years? I thought people did that just for looks. does it make sense financially?
Omnes Omnibus
@? Martin:
No, perhaps most people have an attitude about cars that differs from yours, but that is not the same as being wrong.
Edited.
Anoniminous
Generally speaking if an owned car is safe and reliable you’ll save money by gritting your teeth and keeping the thing. The average monthly car payment is $479/month or $5,748/year. At $3,200 you are still $2,548 plus the standard mileage take-it-to-the-dealer fees to the good. Paying for the transmission flush/replacement should take it well into 2018, call it 18 months or
18 x $479 = $8,622
plus the standard mileage take-it-to-the-dealer fees you won’t be paying.
jacy
@Hillary Rettig:
I think that you find anyone who has owned a GTI will rave about it. The Top Gear guys all have one, and I think they all said that overall, it’s the best car they’ve ever had. I think mostly because it’s just so fun to handle, with no real design downsides. And having a passel of kids and dogs, it was enough space with killer gas mileage, which was huge for me. Damn, but I miss that car.
Hillary Rettig
@Mustang Bobby: what? no Mustang?
different-church-lady
When it’s unreliable enough that the probability it’s going to leave you in a lurch is real on a day-to-day basis.
Which, for me, was two years ago when my car was 10.
Pogonip
If I read right, you have spent $4100 or so in 9 months. That’s $455 a month, rounded, which is within $50-100 of a car payment. The question is, do you want to pay out the $500/month for 3 years? Or do you want to nurse the old one along till you can pay cash for a new or gently used one? I would take the old one to a mechanic and ask for his best estimate of repair costs in the next year before deciding.
My Honda Accord would hold 2 German shepherds in rhe back seat, if they like each other. The trunk would probably be good for 1German shepherd, 1basset hound, 4 corgis, and the odd chihuahua squeezed in here and there, though it would be hot and crowded and none of them would enjoy the ride and they’d probably do a horrifying group Walterpoop to get even.
Hillary Rettig
Thanks everyone for the great advice. (Including reminding me it would be great to get a manual.) I’ll check in later…
Omnes Omnibus
@jacy: My first car was an ’84 GTI that I bought in August of ’88 shortly after I was commissioned in the army. Loved that car. Loved it. The only car that I am as fond of as that one is my current Saab.
Walker
I always pay for cars with cash. 10 years is a good run for a car, so that amortizes to 2-3k per year.
If I greatly exceed that in one year, or I slightly exceed that in two consecutive years, that is a sign that it is time for a new car.
Ruckus
@jacy:
Could have been a Pontiac Aztec. In my heart I think that was the worst car ever sold. This attitude may come from a ride I had in one once, a ride I had to take for my job at the time. Handled, stopped, went, looked like crap. IOW it was crap. A huge ugly pile of crap. Whomever at GM who decided that this was a vehicle that they could sell and make money on, with a straight face, should have been fired about 5 yrs before the thing went on sale.
Pogonip
@WereBear: I am glad you brought up the point about extreme weather because I didn’t think of it. Thank you!
Mustang Bobby
@Hillary Rettig: I have one: a 2007 Mustang convertible. It’s basically a 2-seater and the trunk space is minimal. It’s a great road trip car, though, and gets decent mileage for a car with a 4-litre V6 and 5-speed automatic… upwards of 28 hwy/20 city. But if you need cargo space and carry more than one other passenger, get a wagon. (PS: An SUV/crossover WISHES it was as classy as my fake-wood-grain wagon. :) )
Tom Levenson
We faced this a year ago. Our 2003 Volvo V40 needed ~$3,000 worth of work, and w. 125000 miles and being not cheap or easy to work on, we bailed.
We need a lot of space as it our main car is also my wife’s work vehicle, and she moves largish stuff and lumber quite a bit. We wanted the car to be as green as possible, and tolerable, at least for the 3-4 hour drives we occasionally take to NYC or relatives in Maine.
We looked at a ton of stuff, and ended up settling on a 2013 Toyota Prius Plug-in. It is a fine appliance of a car. Not exciting to drive in any way, but perfectly functional and not at all bad to sit in, front or back seats.
It’s best attribute is the surprising amount of cargo space with the seats down — about 40 cubic feet. That’s down a lot from our Volvo, which came close to 70 cubic feet, but it turns out that it can take quite long items and, when we need to move 4x8s, we’re on the roof rack anyway, as we were with our earlier station wagon. Definitely a two-dog back, though not, I’d guess great danes.
The other positive: the plug in. We only get around 10 miles on all-electric driving, but it turns out that almost all of our use of the car is around town. I’d guess that on the order of 2/3s of the miles we do are all electric. We fill the (tiny) tank about once a month.
Last: we bought it certified, and then for 1100 bucks extended the warranty to 8 years of the in-service date, six years for us. I hope we lose on that bet, for it will mean that our car spends no time in the shop for the next while. But it’s nice to have cost certainty for the bulk of the time we plan to own the car.
If you like the idea of a hybrid but the standard Prius is too small, the Ford C-Max is larger (and has a pretty good plug-in) and teh Prius V, though not a plug in, is freaking huge.
PS: ETA — two to three years used and certified has worked pretty well for us. I hate paying the new car premium.
Pinacacci
If you’re on a budget, the Honda Fit is a great economy car with a surprising amount of cargo space when you fold the seats down. Been driving mine 6 years now, never had a whisper of trouble. Might be too small for you…roughly similar to the Vibe, with slightly more cargo space (52.7 ft^3)
ETA numbers
Tom Levenson
And one more thing: the Honda Fit is an amazing piece of design/engineering. Tiny, and yet with the seats down can swallow ~50 cubic feet. Great gas mileage. My inlaws have two, and love them both. They’re cheap too–less than 20K for all but the most tricked out ones, new. They are much more fun to drive than the Prius, but we found the seats uncomfortable when we took our test drive. YMMV
ETA — Just saw Pinacacci at 60. Jinx!
Anoniminous
deleted by user
Ruckus
@randy khan:
I got rear ended (OK half rear ended, he took off the left side back) by a drunk on the freeway in my Honda Element. Witnesses said he was going about 110 when he hit me. Car was not totaled and I walked away. Yeah I like Honda. Although I have owned 4 of them and 2 of them had issues. I’ve also owned 2 Toyota vehicles that were lemons. Hard to find one, I had 2. I’d say that if a car works and lasts for me, either no one else should buy it, or everyone should, but I can’t decide which is the right answer.
Jeannet
Seems like some of your ‘repairs’ are really maintenance, Hillary – every car needs a tune-up, new brakes, new tires, new battery, etc. at several points in its life. I’d subtract out the maintenance items and look at the cost of the actual repairs and see how those repair expenses compare to what you could buy a newer car for.
I drive a 2003 Honda Element, and will be heart broken when it finally kicks the bucket. It’s only got a 145,000 miles on it though, so should be good for another 150,000 or so, with good maintenance!
Jim
@Pinacacci: I’d agree with the Honda Fit if you decided the CR-V is too much for you. Both are Honda-reliable.
? Martin
@Hillary Rettig: For older used cars it can work where the blue book value of the car at 5 years isn’t all that much higher than its likely to be at 7 years. If you can choose a good car (non-trivial) and put minimal maintenance into it, and then flip it for not that much less. The key is to finding one that is unlikely to need predictable maintenance items (brakes, tires) within the window you plan to own it, and then sell it before it obviously needs those things.
For example, my Honda from 2011 with 50K miles would be worth about $12K today. The same model from 2009 with 70K miles would be worth about $8K. That’s $4K for 20K miles or about $5/mile for acquiring the vehicle, compared to the $11/mile or so in the new car scenario (having subtracted out resale value). Now, you’ll have lower insurance on the 5 year old vehicle than a new one, but you may have higher service/maintenance costs – that’s the part you need to try and control for, and is difficult to do so. But if you can, you’re likely to save a fair bit of money over the new vehicle. Now, you’ll like it less, but what’s the opportunity cost here? If you had an extra $3K by doing that, what would you use that money for that you might like even more? And if you have a car that you are less attached to, are you likely to make better decisions with it – be willing to part with it when it makes more sense to do so, maybe not spend as much on amenities on it, etc.
? Martin
@Jeannet: I have an Element as well, only 65K miles on it. It’s been a wonderful car for us. Shame they don’t make them any longer.
3am
Chevy Malibu LT is currently a nice blend of size, features, fuel economy. Has a hybrid option that really gooses the mileage with minor cost in trunk space. It’s what I’m considering, in a similar situation to you. Good luck!
Mike in NC
@Hillary Rettig: One time I was getting the car serviced and had a couple of questions for the Service Manager. He said with proper care it should last 300,000 miles. Back then my commute to work was an hour each way. The day I traded it in was unexpected, as I was due only for an estimate on the current value. Then they make me the proverbial offer that I couldn’t refuse. They also said if I waited a few months all of the 2014 in stock would be gone.
Sandia Blanca
Another happy Mazda owner here–we’ve had our Mazda 3 for several years, and when I downsized after the kids moved out, I bought a Mazda 2 that is very reliable. Our son bought an early Mazda Miata, which ran great until he was rear-ended.
Raven
I have a 2003 accord with 65,000 miles. I likey.
john smallberries
Think of the repairs in terms of car payments. When the ratio of repair cost and duration to the next repair turns negative relative to the cost of a replacement car, it is tiem to either bith the bullet (because you relally love the car) or move on.
Jeffro
Get a brand-new Subaru Outback or Forester and drive it for about a dozen years. Handles great in all weather, plenty of cargo space, low maintenance, etc etc.
Barbara
We have a 1991 Volvo station wagon but we stopped using it to drive long distances about three years ago. We have put more money into it than we likely should have, but when you consider the cost of a new vehicle, the purchase price spread over its likely useful life is the least you are going to spend. Assuming you own this vehicle free and clear,and a new vehicle costs at least $20,000, if it lasts 10 years you will be spending at least $2k per year, without financing. So while $3200 in repairs is more than that, it is not so much more that you should feel bad. It used to be you could get better deals on used cars with manual transmission, but it sounds like you want some kind of vehicle with a fair amount of cargo capacity. We also have a 2001 Volkswagen Passat wagon we just bequeathed to a family member. It was not as durable as the Volvo and VW no longer sells the wagon in the US. But it sure was fun to drive And it had a lot of capacity as well.
? Martin
@Omnes Omnibus: Dude, I said ‘most’ so don’t wingnut/Clinton me, okay?
And I’m not saying to not buy a new car. What I’m saying is that most people are unable to properly understand the economics that underly the purchase of a car, and then express surprise later. I’m amazed at how many people I hear bitching about the cost of filling the tank of their monster SUV and more than once responded by noting that they chose the car, did they not consider that cost? The answer was always ‘well, I didn’t realize it would be so much’. It’s fucking multiplication, people! You know how much gas costs – you pass that number every goddamn day, and the size of the tank is clearly indicated. You’ll spend $50K and not bother to do some 4th grade multiplication? Most people make decisions regarding cars that they only later discover, but could have easily anticipated if only they stopped looking at the car through the lens of the American Dream, and instead looked at through the same lens you use when you buy milk or socks. If you’re cool dropping $50K and $150 per fillup and $1200 for your 30K service, then great – have at it.
One of my staff was complaining to me the other day about his commute and wanted me to do something about it. I reminded him he knew about his commute when he bought his new car and was proudly showing it off. M Series are very fun, very cool cars, but when you’re doing 100 miles round trip to work, they will blow through your paycheck at an alarming rate, particularly if you have an M Series car payment next to it. That’s not my problem to fix, but he was too enamored with owning a really nice to see the true cost of owning a really nice car. A lot of people are. I think that’s pretty obvious when you talk to people.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@Hillary Rettig:
Not jacy, but I’ve only been “stranded” once in my TDI Jetta Wagon (purchased new in November 2003) – the battery had been telling me for a while that it needed to be replaced and I kept putting it off. Finally one Friday it wouldn’t start after filling up. That could happen with any car.
It’s hard to generalize about VWs. For a while they had problems with electrical coils on the gas engines. TDIs don’t use coils so never had that issue. Etc.
If you are thinking seriously about a particular kind of car, it can be helpful to find where the brand enthusiasts hang out. E.g. there’s a lot of good information about VW TDIs at TDIClub.com. You can learn a lot about, say, whether particular transmissions have issues, whether one engine gets substantially better mileage than another, etc.
Good luck!
Cheers,
Scott.
Suzanne
I replaced my 2000 CR-V at 207K miles because it got expensive, and bought a 2015 CR-V. LOVE IT. Adults fit comfortably in the backseat, dog fits comfortably in the cargo area, and with the seats folded down, it does well at IKEA.
different-church-lady
@frosty:
I have a 2004:
* Blast to drive
* Fenders rotted out surprisingly quickly
* Eats tires like crazy, and they are not cheap at that size
* Suspension parts seem to be a weak spot
But they are now on the third generation of Mazda 3s, so my experience with the first generation may not apply.
In spite of all the problems listed above, I still *want* another one. I loved that car before it wore out.
Francis
1. Never buy new. You can save a huge amount by buying a car 1-2 years old, especially one that’s an early return off of a lease.
2. Jiffy Lube is quoting $155 for a transmission fluid change. That seems pretty cheap to me instead of incurring car payments.
3. Personally, I drive cars into the ground. I’ve got 155,000 into my current one, and I plan to keep it for at least another couple of years / 25,000 miles. Service and the occasional parts replacement are a fraction of the cost of car payments, even on a lightly-used car.
4. A 2002 car is essentially worthless, and has been for some time. The reasons to get rid of it are (a) you’re sick of it or (b) the car is so critical to your daily life that you cannot risk a sudden unexpected failure. If you have the flexibility to keep driving the car until some major part fails, then hang on to it until it well and truly dies on you.
Ruckus
@? Martin:
I agree that many people look at a car for how they think it will make them feel or look, not what it costs or how it works. If you do look at it this way I think you are in the minority of people buying new cars. If you weren’t those dealerships with hundreds of new cars on huge lots with oversized buildings wouldn’t exist. And people like a fella I used to know who owned half of 4 different dealerships wouldn’t be a part owner in a 50+ ft boat with a permanent captain and cook along with a $500,000 motorhome, at a time when that was about 2-3 times the cost of the average home in socal wouldn’t be making that much. It is enough money to make most of us take a moment to make any decision but not so much, like a house, that we take long enough pause and think it through. Either that or lots of people around me really can afford a $80-100K vehicle.
Mustang Bobby
@Francis: Never EVER get your transmission fluid “replaced” at Jiffy Lube. They will screw you with your pants on. Go to them for oil changes if you must, but I have had them leave the dipstick out, the oil drain plug loose, and change the radio presets all while they were trying to upsell me shit. Once they told me my battery was shot and I needed new brakes, all of which they could provide. I whipped out the receipt from the Ford dealer with the 99-point check (I went to the dealer for a warranty replacement on the airbag) and all — including the battery and brakes — were fine.
Find a local reliable mechanic and stay away from the chains.
? Martin
@john smallberries: That’s a really difficult thing to work out. You can figure that the new brakes will last you 40K miles, but that doesn’t help you to know when the transmission will crap out on you.
Another consideration for people looking at cars – how long do you keep yours? We keep ours for at least 10 years. In 10 years, it’s unlikely there will be many gas powered new cars on the market. There are already more EV charging stations than diesel fuel pumps in the US. Gas stations are closing at a consistent rate – there’s 20% fewer than there were 10 years ago. You have both countries announcing plans to ban gas cars in 10 years time, and big automakers indicating they won’t sell gas cars in 10 years time. If you think you might switch to an EV or a plug-in hybrid within 5 years or so, it may be really expensive to buy a new gas vehicle today. The resale value of it will likely plummet faster than normal as consumers seek out EVs, and the associated costs may go up more than expected late in its life. Sports cars and large SUVs will probably have a longer life than compact cars or crossovers on this front.
We’re in the market to replace two cars and we’re probably going to go with one older used car for 2-3 years until the EV market settles out a bit and there are more options there, and go Uber instead of the 2nd car which we only need occasionally. Buying a gas car expecting the usual longevity and costs that you are accustomed is unlikely to play out – this is a big transition point for cars. And EVs in particular have much lower maintenance costs than gas cars. There’s almost no fluids, no transmission, minimal brake wear because they regenerative brake much of the time instead of friction, and so on. That crossover point on cost is going to be much different now that you can jump into an EV and avoid some of those maintenance costs.
hueyplong
Son, daughter and wife all have Mazdas (two 3s and a CX-5). 2016 (32k mi), 2012 (79k mi) and 2008 (87k mi) models. So far so good. Regular gas, good mileage.
Yes, they’re driven a lot.
Original Lee
@Yet another Jeff: This. Although we did decide to let our really old Honda Odyssey go when it needed a new transmission for the second time, and the mileage was around 350,000. (The first time was a known manufacturing problem and was replaced under warranty; the replacement lasted about 250,000 miles.) We bought an 2005 low-mileage Honda CRV for Miss Original Teenager and she is loving it. We replaced the old Odyssey with a used CRV (I think it’s a 2012), and that was nice, because we were able to get one that was fully loaded without paying a small mint for it. Our current Odyssey has 175,000 miles and has needed one significant repair to the air conditioning, but is otherwise fine. (Yes, we had almost 10 years with 2 minivans.) I love that I pretty much only have to change the oil occasionally and run it in for the regular checkups.
For the future, we think we will replace the Odyssey with another minivan or possibly a crossover SUV. It kind of depends on what our lives look like at that point – how many folk in the household, what our activities are, etc. One thing Mr. Original is considering as a retirement activity is dog transport for the rescue we volunteer for, which would mean a vehicle that can hold two large kennels. The newer CRV will go to Mr. Original Teenager when he gets his license. To replace that car, we are thinking about a Suburu Outback, another CRV, or possibly a Tesla Model X.
jacy
@Hillary Rettig:
My ex had a Golf and currently has a Passat Wagen — his Golf did not have issues, while it seems like he has a lot of problems with the Passat. My Golf definitely did NOT have breakdown issues. There was a driver side window issue the first year — which was under warranty, and once fixed never recurred. Over the life of the car (which ended up being close to 400,000 miles), I had the clutch replaced twice, which is pretty damned good for the amount of driving. I don’t think there was another single issue that goes beyond the wear-and-tear (belts, etcetera). Again, it’s a pain to find someone to work on them, because diagnosing and fixing things is complex. But the reliability and safety were top-notch, in my experience. Toward the end, it didn’t drive as well, and when I had it looked over, it was clear that there would be some major repair work in the near future. At that point I was undergoing cancer treatment and knew that I didn’t need to be worried about when something would go wrong, so I bought a nice, reliable (boring) Volvo. But I cried when I had to let that car go!
And if you’re looking for gas mileage, even at the end I was getting close about 45 MPG, down from a peak of about 50. Again, diesel 5-speed, which was the best combo for mileage.
JMG
We have a 2013 C-RV and a 2003 Corolla. Very happy with both. We had a Forester for over a decade, and it did right by us. Do you live in a winter weather state, Ms. Rettig? If so, then the Forester’s AWD is a good thing to have.
BruceFromOhio
I’d see if I could find another Odyssey. We are making payments on a 2010 that just broke 100k, and it’s gorgeous. If you are looking to downsize, check out the CRV, any year.
Chad
@? Martin: If I could impart any piece of wisdom to my kids, it would be this nugget. “There are no good car decisions. There are bad car decisions and worse car decisions”. Cars are the worst kind of money pit. Well said!
Personally, I buy Hondas, and drive them into the ground. They are reliable for the most part, and every day I can drive a paid off car is a day that I come out ahead.
I actually wouldnt get rid of the van personally. If it drives and its ok for local back and forth to work, you are set. Rent something if you need to take a long trip.
Start saving what you would pay in a car payment, and then drive the van until you have a catastrosphic engine or transmission failure and then go get another Honda with the money you have been saving.
We drive a 2011 Honda Pilot and a 2009 Honda Fit. Both are great cars. The Fit has hauled dressers, desks, you name it.
normal liberal
@? Martin:
For what it’s worth, I found your analysis very helpful. Had I thought in those terms 3 1/2 years ago, and been appropriately skeptical about mileage claims, my garage would not now house a 2012 Sonata hybrid which gets unbelievably crappy mileage when the temperature drops below 40, not unusual in central Illinois.
It was an impulse buy at 0% interest, and possibly the second stupidest purchase of my entire life. And I’m stuck with it for at least another 3 years.
Felanius Kootea
Toyota RAV 4. Has just enough space to move a lot of stuff around, especially when you lay the back seats flat. My husband, who had never bought a Toyota before, got a RAV4 Hybrid after noticing that
I have never had to take in my nine year old Camry Hybrid (already at 100,000 miles) for anything other than 5,000 mile servicing.
I’m eyeing a Tesla Model X for my next car, which means I will have to drive my Camry until it’s a teenager, so that Tesla can work out all the kinks ;-). Love the gull wing doors but not the photos of the doors hitting low overhanging beams in parking structures because the sensors just didn’t pick up on them.
Lizzy L
I have no advice, I can only tell you what I do. I buy 3-4 year old Toyota Corollas (they usually have around 50,000 miles on them), drive them for 10 years, and replace them. I drive under around 8,000 miles annually, so the car has some trade in value. My current car is a 2007 LE model; I bought it in December 2010 and I hope to get 4 more years out of it. I just spent $1500 replacing all four brakes.
I second the advice from those who say find a good mechanic. I’ve been going to the same shop for 21 years; I trust them to do good work and so far that trust has not been misplaced. No, they aren’t cheap. Good luck!
Zinsky
2014 Odyssey, eh? You can pound the glass out of the windows, pour concrete in the doors and enter her in the local demolition derby? Or ram the Trump motorcade head on,doing a 100 per!
Gindy51
We’ve had two Subaru’s and both of them stank up the garage so badly we sold them. They are terrible for emissions. My Suburban doesn’t make the garage stink and neither did my Dodge Ram 2500 full sized truck but the Imprezza and the Outback… PU. For a car manufacturer who claims to be green they sure don’t make cars that are air quality wise.
Raven
@Chad: you never owned a boat!
Ruckus
@Raven:
Boats are not a hole in the water into which money is poured. A boat is actually a vacuum which sucks your wallet free of every dollar it can find. And it can find them all.
Still boats are fun.
Original Lee
@Original Lee: I forgot to say, I used to drive 25,000 miles a year and Mr. Original used to drive about 20,000 miles a year (this was our 2-minivan phase). I now drive a little under 20,000 miles a year on average, due to Miss Original Teenager being off at college and having her own car, and Mr. Original drives less, too, due to telecommuting several days a week. Our pre-Honda cars didn’t last as long because at that stage in our lives, we were doing a lot of city driving instead of a lot of highway driving.
The best car I’ve ever had so far, in terms of reliability, gas mileage, and being fun to drive, was my manual-transmission Ford Festiva. I really miss that car sometimes, and even at 200,000 miles, I didn’t want to give it up. But I didn’t feel comfortable driving a car that small with a baby in the back seat.
Raven
@Ruckus: so’s my truck!
frosty
@jacy:
We did two in the ’98. I expect the second was because one of my sons learned to drive on it. And $950 apiece? Really?
Not the worst, thought. My brother put 7 clutches into a 1971 Maverick!
chopper
@Jeannet:
my 2003 element is starting to show some wear, but goddamnit I’m gonna bury that car next to me when I die.
Omnes Omnibus
@Ruckus:
@Raven:
That was really the point I was trying to make in my reply to Martin above. Buying a car can be more that a purely financial, utilitarian transaction and approching that way is not necessarily wrong.
Chad
@Tom Levenson: My Honda Fit is pretty amazing. One of the best cars I’ve owned.
NotMax
If you can find one, a used Element might fit you cargo neds.
@hueyplong:
Convinced Mom to get a Mazda 3 (non-hatchback) two years ago, abd she lurves it. Fantastic mileage, zippy, fun to drive.
Raven
@Omnes Omnibus: when I bought my 66 thirty years ago the dude said “I knew you were going to buy it when you walked up to my house”!
Chad
@Raven: So…..as a belated wedding gift my father in law just gifted us with a 1979 14′ Larsen with a 2 stroke Evinrude 70 engine. To say its a project is a bit of an understatement. :-)
guachi
Your repair guy is absolutely correct that Subarus are overpriced on the used market and that the Vibe is a fantastic option. It was built at the same Southern California factory as the Matrix but it says “Pontiac” on it.
I currently have a VW Golf Sportwagen and I love it. The only thing wrong with it is that it’s a diesel so I have to either fix it or sell it.
I’ve gotten piles of compliments on the car because of how nice the interior is. VW interiors are fantastic for the segment they are in.
It has lots of space. Its 30/66 cu. ft. (seats up/seats down) is more than about 3/4 of the CUVs out there and only a little less than the class leaders. Plus, and this is the biggest bonus, it’s not a CUV and, therefore, not in the dullest car segment there is.
I loved my Mazda 3 hatchback (also a great choice). The current and some last generation models have the Skyactiv engine which is ridiculously fuel efficient for a standard four cylinder engine, 30/40, and Mazda interiors are incredibly nice.
Every time I get in my VW I enjoy driving it. It’s not actually sporty like the name implies, but the new MQB architecture provides a fantastic ride. The gas engine provides decent fuel economy of 25/35.
I love, love, love my station wagon.
NotMax
Wanna talk low mileage? At home, drive a 1994 car. Earlier this week, watxched the odometer roll past 53,000 original miles. Not bad for 22 years. ;)
Raven
@Chad: I had a 14 ft alumicraft with a 5 horse eska but at least it was a 4 stroke !
RSA
I like cars, and so I’m okay paying for the enjoyment of more than basic transportation. Right now it’s a 2006 Audi A4 AWD convertible, with about 115,000 miles on it. I used to think in terms of repair costs versus a car loan, but now I fold in how much I like it and whether it’s ever left me stranded. So far, so good.
Philbert
I like the idea of keep them for 10 years and get another one, unless it leaves you stranded more than once. It’s still worth something and it spares you from hanging on until, “oops, too late”. Speaking of Vibe/Matrix, I have a 2003 Vibe with 130K and the only problems I have had is that is it is slow and I am tired of it. It’s never failed or broke, 30 city mpg even now. It’s surprisingly big on the inside considering. AWD is available.
Omnes Omnibus
@Raven: It’s not a direction I would have gone, but you seem to get a shitload of enjoyment out of it.
RSA
@NotMax:
Nice! Until fairly recently I was daily driving a 1993 BMW 3-series, with about 85,000 miles on it. But then one of my nephews needed a car, and I didn’t need two…
germy
Additional Ethical Questions for Driverless Cars
Russ
Smell the transmission fluid. No burnt smell, it’s ok to go.
The question of when to change vehicles?
Now.
You have lost confidence in it.
What to buy?
After 33 years in the car biz, that’s the one thing I have never done and will never do. You’ll know it when you see it and feel it.
Raven
@Omnes Omnibus: well, I’ve owned that era chev or jimmy for 40 years’
Schlemazel
As a rule of thumb I try to guess how much repair costs will be in a year vs. 12 months of car payments. That is always a crapshoot but our ’04 Impala has 250k on it so I am starting to worry. We have had a few things done but at this age I assume the suspension is in danger of needing a major overhaul. In the last year the body has deteriorated badly and the transmission is obviously not healthy. We have decided it is time. We are looking at sedans, mid or full size with low mileage.
William B Clark
There are lots of questions about size, budget, and driving needs that need to be answered before answers can hope to be useful. As toi the old car, I wouild venture to guess that there are any number of expenses in the future for it to be worthy of much trust.
I would avoid Toyota and Honda. My experience there has validated my opinions about their planned obselesence. You can get a used Volt for around 18k. If thats too small, look for some other Hybrid as they are much more practical than gas only vehicles and they come in many sizes.
Ben Cisco (onboard the Defiant)
I’ve owned three Accords. The first is still running after 250k miles, the guy I sold it to just sold it to a mechanic. The second one was sold when Mrs. Cisco could no longer drive, and I traded the last one in for a Pilot. All of them were used, and the last two came from CarMax…
Dad’s rule of thumb is if you drop coin on it for repairs three months in a row, time to bail out.
smintheus
A transmission flush frequently causes problems by pushing grit in the system into components and clogging them up. It’s probably better and certainly cheaper just to do a drain/replace the filter. You get a lot of the gunk out and the new fluid added makes it mostly clean…good enough anyway.
If that’s the only major expense you’re facing, it’s not that expensive.
Stay away from 4 cylinder Subaru engines because they’re highly prone to very early head gasket failure, which costs a fortune to fix. Pre-2007 Sables and Tauruses are plentiful and underpriced, and tend to be rock solid. If they’re treated/maintained well, you can count on getting at least 200-250k from them. Not that expensive to repair because they’re so common.
Your mechanic sounds too expensive.
I just bought a used Toyota Avalon. It’s a great vehicle to own, extremely reliable. Got it because Avalon owners always say it almost never needs to be repaired and lasts for a very long time. It retains its value as a used car, though.
Honus
@RSA: that’s nothing. I have a 1957 Studebaker Silver Hawk with 42k original miles.
HinTN
We had a Matrix. It sucked. Too small, blind spots, etc. Went back to Camry. Buy them used with up to 100K and have the dealer service them. Get 200K more. Enjoy peace of mind.
Raven
@Honus: fuck yes!
HinTN
@Ben Cisco (onboard the Defiant): That’s a good rule o’ thumb.
Cat Herder
@? Martin: I agree wholeheartedly with your financial analysis… except for your statement that you should never finance a car. The decision to finance is entirely dependent on the interest rate (and any financing fees). If your interest rate is lower than the rate of return on a financial asset (T-bill, stock dividend, etc.), it actually often makes more sense to finance the car and then invest the money you would have used to purchase the car outright.
tl;dr: don’t forget about opportunity cost!
JustRuss
When do you retire your car? In my case, when my wife said “I want a new car or a divorce!” after getting stranded one time too many.
Odysseys of your vintage are famous for killing transmissions. As others have said, you don’t have to flush it, but get the fluid changed unless you’re sure you’ll be replacing it soon.
I can’t really recommend a replacement without knowing what your criteria is, but if you’re thinking something a little smaller but with some hauling ability, Scion xB is hard to beat. With the Scion brand being killed, you might get a deal on a new one while they’re still around.
Pogonip
@Pogonip: Oops, I just noticed I did not read right. You spent $3100, not $4100, in 9 months. So the old clunker is saving you money. Unless you live where Wearbear lives it’d be cheaper to keep it. If you absolutely cannot stand to look at the same stains one day longer, consider detailing. A good detailer can work miracles.
That reminds me. A while back Walter took one of his giant trademarked Walterdumps on Cole’s car seat, then walked around to make sure it was all distributed evenly, and Cole didn’t know if he’d be able to get it all out. Did he?
Honus
@Raven: gold and white two tone. And it’s not a garage queen. I’ve taken it on road trips to philly, DC, Baltimore and Wrightsville Beach. Tire smoking 260 V8 that gets 20 mpg on the highway. Mostly drive it to tailgate at UVA games these days.
Inherited it when my uncle died in 1970.
Omnes Omnibus
@Honus: Gold and white would actually work well on that car. Cool thing to have.
Jeannet
I’d like to second the positive takes on the Scion XB – very dependable and hauls a lot for a little box of a car.
Honus
Now cars aren’t such a bad deal now. You can usually get 0% or 1.5% financing which is spending somebody else’s money. Most new cars have free maintenance for two or three years, including oil changes. And you have a 60 or 70k power train warranty. It’s likely gonna use less fuel than a used car too, and pollute less. If you can use your old car for the down payment, the only cash you lay out is for the first payment. The 5-10k you’d pay for a decent used car will make your payments for the first two or three years.
Honus
@Omnes Omnibus: gold and white is classic. The Golden Hawks in the ads were often that color.
Guy at the shop where they changed the oil said “your Studebaker is ready… I haven’t said that in a long time.”
Barry
@Mike in NC: “Traded in my 2004 CR-V when it had 205K miles on it, because I knew a bunch of expensive repairs were coming due (brake job, auto door locks broken, etc.) and the dealer gave me the full Kelly Blue Book value. Got an excellent deal on a 2014 CR-V because they needed to make room for the 2015 models.”
This. If you have a good deal available, then it’s a better bet to replace the old car.
Mary G
I love my Subaru Forested. The steering wheel is so easy to turn with bad hands, the ride is incredibly smooth, and it’s big enough to haul stuff without being a giant tank. I bought it new on New Year’s Eve for $6k off the sticker price. If you don’t care about things like what color you get or how long it takes you can get a great deal when the dealer is trying to make a sales goal.
satby
@Honus: I live near the Studebaker museum in South Bend so that’s the last time I saw a Studebaker, and what a great car you have!
satby
I just bought a 2015 Hyundai Accent hatchback from Avis car sales.
Got it for a couple thousand less than the equivalent used cars on lots and knew that it was maintained well. I now spend less than $20/week in gas on average when I was putting that into that 2005 Ford Taurus I unloaded every other day.
Holds quite a bit of cargo too with the seats down. But I got it mainly for the mileage and the remainder of the 5 year warranty.
Howard Beale IV
I bought a 2015 RAV4 Limited AWD on 0% to replace my Gen II Prius (which sucked in the snow, even with Nokian WR G3’s.) I was surprised how much the dealer got in mark-up. Since I telecommute these days my mileage is extremely low, so I expect I’ll drive this thing for decades. I did have to replace the auxillary battery in the Prius as they are notorious for failing in 5 years, thankfully it was a fairly painless exercise.
Philbert
Mary G: ++ on buying the last few days of December!
Juju
I have a 2001 Subaru Forester and a 1969 VW bug convertible, and also access to my Mother’s BMW X3. I love the Subaru and got a really good price on it since it had been through a hail storm. It is easy and reasonable to take care of. I replaced the battery that came with the car in May 2007, and I had to buy a new battery for it a couple of weeks ago. I guess nine years is a long time for a battery. I’m in the process of deciding what to do with the Forester. My mother is 83 and I drive her car a lot, but I still really like my Forester. I can only drive the bug up to 2000 miles a year. It was my first car and the car I drove for many years, but now is considered collector car and has special insurance. Try test driving some cars. It can’t hurt and you’re under no obligation to buy. I will say I do love my Subaru and haven’t regretted once buying that car. I had a jeep that I was willing to leave in a parking lot with the keys in it.
Honus
@Yet another Jeff: 1980 Monte Carlo. Please tell me it’s black.
Chris T.
@? Martin:
Largely agreed. I did take one out a few years ago, though, after getting married: spouse needed to replace car, spouse had various education loans (total well over $100k) at rates from 4.75 to something north of 7 percent, and I had the option of paying cash for the car, or paying off all the high rate student-loans and borrowing at 3% on the car.
I went for “borrow at 3% on the car”. The car will be paid off in less than 3 years at this point. The one remaining student loan (at 4.75%) is below $20k and I’m eating into that one as fast as possible while keeping prudent cash reserves.
kindness
My work car is a 2001 Toyota Solara SE. 5 speed (manual) v6. I bought it at 64,000 miles and it now has 490,000. I’m hoping to crack the half million miles before I replace it. That should be soon sadly. I drive 85 miles each way to work & back so it adds up.
I’ve been looking at the Lexus GS 350s for a replacement. A 2014 is what I’m aiming at.
Honus
@satby: that’s a cool place. Got the calendar!. Driving the old Hawk is a lot of fun. You can park it next to a new Porsche Turbo or a Ferrari, and everybody want to look at the Hawk. And I say that as the owner of a Porsche Turbo.
Lymie
@? Martin: Interesting analysis. Two points – 100k miles is conservative for modern cars, we usually get close to 200k (don’t ask about the Saab, however) and second – with good credit we have gotten two different car loans through the dealer for 5 years and 0.9% interest – which is essentially free money.
? Martin
@Cat Herder:
Generally, no. Even if your interest rate is lower, you should instead buy a cheaper car than finance. I assume you are referring to the corner case where you are ready to buy with cash in hand and you get a 1% finance offer – you aren’t using the loan to make the car affordable, you are just taking advantage of an opportunity that shouldn’t be presented to you. I’ve done this as well, but it’s really uncommon.
Aside from that, with the rare exception of a car that increases in value (I see you ’57 Studebaker up there, but good luck identifying that in a new car) and a car that adds value to some other aspect of your life – real estate agent where the car is effectively your office and showroom, you are borrowing against a depreciating asset which you should never do. The two big rules that consumers miss, usually because we don’t teach this in society but also because everyone is vulnerable to marketing:
1) Loans exist to time-shift. They allow you to buy something earlier than you could afford with the presumption that the value of the thing you are buying will increase faster than the cost of the loan. You can’t jump over to some other asset vehicle to justify it, because there is most likely a better vehicle between the two you should focus on instead (is there some other asset to borrow against that would lose money slower than the car – yes, almost anything else). You borrow for a house because of the expectation that a house will increase in value either directly through appreciation of indirectly through reduction in other costs such as taxes or very indirectly through such things as stability so your kids can be more successful. Education you borrow for because presumably the education will increase your income faster than the loan will decrease your savings. Your health you borrow for because it doesn’t matter how much debt you have if you are dead. You can borrow for a car if it’s truly necessary for your job (Uber driver, real estate agent) but for the vast majority of us, instead go downmarket, get something used for cheap, and instead put your cash in that investment vehicle and when you’ve saved enough then sell/buy. There’s no way in any market you can get a loan relative to a safe investment return that would also outpace depreciation of a car. Saving will always win.
2) Insurance does not exist to eliminate the inconvenience of paying for something you’d rather not pay for. It exists to cover the cost of something you cannot afford to pay for. I have life insurance. My wife does not. Her income is low enough that if she died, I could support the family without it and without having to hire someone to do what she does. I don’t need an insurance payout to get through so paying for her policy is only a drain on income now. The reverse is not true – she could not support the family without my income so we put money into that policy to cover that eventuality. Insurance companies are extremely good at coming out ahead, even if by just a little bit. If they are only paying for things that you could otherwise afford (replacing the screen on your phone, burying your kid, paying for routine medical care, etc) then your insurer is almost certainly coming out ahead. As soon as you can afford to reliably pay for something out of pocket, drop that part of your insurance and pay out of pocket.
Now, the latter makes for good personal advice, but terrible social advice. You have to be the kind of person that won’t skip the mammogram just because it costs $200, and most people aren’t like that. But if you are that kind of person, then do it. That’s why your parents told you to drop the comprehensive coverage on your car insurance once your car got old. You keep liability, so you can’t be sued into bankruptcy, but stop paying for every scrape and dent and just suck it up – you’re just burning through money, and they don’t make a big difference in value on an older car.
? Martin
@Chris T.: No, that was a good decision. Well done.
Lymie
@Hillary Rettig: Another vote for the new CR-V. In Eco mode we get low 30’s mpg unless there is serious mountain terrain. Moved the girl to and from school 3 times so far. With a cocker and a springer tucked in around the edges for another dog-unit.
frosty
@smintheus:
I’d have to agree. The 2001 I got from my mom when she couldn’t drive any more sure seems rock solid, and no major repairs at 100,000. The engine lopes along at ~2,000 RPM at 65. Nice road tripper, but pretty boring to drive.
Bloix
@Tom Levenson: You can put a bicycle in a Fit without removing the front wheel. It’s amazing- the car just seems to swallow it up.
Howard Beale IV
The 2005-2008 Ford Five Five Hundred/Mercury Sable with AWD’s were fine rides-they were based in the Volvo platforms and using a CVT transmission and could get a whopping 30 MPG on the highway.
redshirt
@? Martin: A general thanks, Martin, for your well written and informative posts on this blog. Love to see you as a Front Pager if you’d take the job.
? Martin
@redshirt: Thanks. How many Tom Friedmans does the world need, though?
Juju
@? Martin: I paid $1600 for my 1969 VW bug convertible in 1979. It’s insured for $15,000. I’m in the process of getting it back in mint condition. It’s in near mint condition now. If I do that it will be worth, so I am told, $25,000-30,000. I never thought of that when I bought the car. I just loved the way it looked. Who knew?
grumpy realist
@Tom Levenson: I have a Nissan Versa, which is their version of the Fit. I love it because it turns on a dime and gets good gas mileage (avg 34.5 in my experience). Got the thing new but with a bunch of rebates.
The two useful add-ons I’ve found are a) rear video camera, and b) extra protection for the windshield. Since I do a lot of highway driving the latter gives me extra peace of mind from rocks flying up from the road.
redshirt
@? Martin: Heh indeedy.
Pinacacci
@Bloix:
Haha! This is true!
grrljock
@I’mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: Re: TDIclub.com, I was an occasional lurker there and eventually used it to sell my 97 Passat Wagon TDI. I was living in TX at the time, and 2 guys flew down from NorCal to buy it. We broke the ice when we all agreed that none of us liked the airport being named after GHW Bush, they checked out the car, wrote me a check, and started their drive back. Fast forward about 5 years later after I myself moved to CA: I pulled into a parking spot at a Whole Foods, noted that the car beside mine looked really similar to my old Passat, then was convinced it was the same car when I saw the old TX registration stickers on it. I left a note on the car and got a confirmatory email back. That chance encounter delighted me, it was like running into an old friend unexpectedly.
rl
love our ford cmax with the seat down loads of cargo
plenty of pep and it is a hybrid
Betsy
If the car payment you’d make x 12 would be larger than the annual repair cost, then don’t buy. At $350 / month you’d be looking at $4200 in annual repairs before it’s worth moving on.
smintheus
@Howard Beale IV: I had a ’96 Taurus wagon that got 33 mpg on the highway. Those wagons could haul a lot of stuff too.
The problem with the Volvo era Tauruses/Five Hundreds and Sables was the CVT transmissions tended to blow out and since they were used in nothing else, cost an obscene sum (I’ve seen people saying $7000) to replace.
Betsy
@Hillary Rettig: no, not if you like the car and it meets your needs. My vehicle is worth only salvage value but it runs, holds three passengers and two bikes, has AC and a good stereo, comfortable seats and armrests .. I know its repair and maintenance history. So I want for nothing, and could never replace it for its book value ..in fact, replacing it would be at least $5000.
smintheus
@frosty: Yep, they are boring as sin. Which is one of the main reasons there’s little demand for them used; which is why they’re ridiculously cheap for such reliable and safe cars.
Omnes Omnibus
@smintheus:
You are doing something wrong.
smintheus
@Omnes Omnibus: To me, if it’s fun it’s hard to make the case that it’s sinful. Sin is wasting your life doing boring stuff, like spending Sunday mornings in church listening to sinners preen and prattle.
Omnes Omnibus
@smintheus: Fair enough. I withdraw my objection.
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet
@grrljock: It’s a small world, especially among TDI lovers. :-)
Nice story. Thanks for sharing it.
Cheers,
Scott.
Ruckus
@Omnes Omnibus:
I’ve owned fun cars and utility vehicles. Mostly trucks as I owned a business that I needed one for. The fun cars weren’t as much fun for me as some people act like they are. But I bought a new car six months ago that I expect will be my last, because when I retire I won’t have enough income to buy another. So I spent, not a lot in the overall scope of it, to have a car I enjoy and that gets good mileage and that should make it for the rest of my driving career. Martin seems to think there will be no gas cars in 10 yrs. But there are too many people who can’t purchase any kind of new car, so they buy used to very very used. That’s not going to go away unless cars get a bunch cheaper or we invest a treasury’s worth of money in public transportation, and neither of those are happening. Cars have gotten a lot more expensive, especially considering average wages, at some point many people won’t be able to buy them new. And yet we have a market for 400 hp sedans and SUVs and the like that most people only buy as status items. I don’t see gasoline/diesel powered going away for at least 20 yrs, those gas powered cars being sold today are going to still be around and are going to be cheaper to purchase and that is what most people look at when they buy, especially in the used to very, very used market.
Revrick
Hillary, I think you’re asking the wrong questions! In our culture, a car is not just a mode of transportation, but also an emotional statement of who we are. Cars are, after all, one of our five skins we present to the world, the others being our actual skin, our hair, our clothes, and our homes. So what kind of person do you see yourself as?
For instance, picture in your mind what kind of car the farktards who go at precisely 54.8 mph in the left hand lane drive. Usually, they buy something that markets itself as ‘safe,’ because they tend to be fearful people. On the other hand, smart arses or oddballs usually drive VW’s. Where do you see yourself on this spectrum?
A car should be a good balance of steak and sizzle for you (of course within the limitation of your bank account).
Howard Beale IV
@smintheus: I still see plenty of AWD vehicles of the Five Hundreds/Sables Before they went to they went to the six speed for the one year during the transition year to the new model.
TriassicSands
I’ll put in one more positive recommendation for a Honda Fit. Good gas mileage and lots of cargo space with the seats down. The back seats are cleverly designed and can be arranged two different ways (apart from the normal seating position). You have to see it — I’m sure there must be a video on the Internet somewhere showing the different seat arrangements.
Omnes Omnibus
@TriassicSands: If I were ever looking for a pure city car, the Fit would be really high on my list.
maurinsky
I’m glad you asked this question, because I always wonder about this too. I have a 2009 Toyota Corolla (and I’m shocked there aren’t more Corolla drivers on here, every other car I see on the road seems to be a Corolla), I am about to turn over 170,000 – my regular daily commute is short but I also am a musician and gigs can take me farther afield, plus I have a regular music gig which is 65 miles round trip two or three times a week. Except for a repair to the shocks and struts owing to a pothole related injury, I’ve only ever done regular maintenance. It’s been a very good car and I hope to make it to 300,000 before I have to even think about buying a new car….although I save money every week for the next one.
Singing Truth to Power
I drove my last car for 15 years, and probably hung on a year or two too long. My new car/truck is a Ford Transit Connect. I absolutely love it. It drives a bit like a truck, but is pretty nimble, pretty compact, and hauls a boatload of stuff. The headroom is amazing. I got the short wheelbase 5 passenger version, and took the passenger seats out, because I do art fairs and can haul the booth, displays, and merchandise with no problem.
Steeplejack (phone)
@Singing Truth to Power:
Those look interesting. How is it on the highway?
MaxUtil
@wenchacha: +1 on the XB’s. Drives like a compact, but you can fit a lot in it. Not ‘minivan a lot’, but still.
Kayla Rudbek
We have both a Honda Fit and an older Prius – both bought used. The Fit will hold a tandem bicycle with the front wheel off (although not safely IMAO – we have done so once and we had the bike in between the front seats); the Prius holds the tandem bicycle quite well with the wheels off and rear seats folded down. The Prius is a more smooth ride and the Fit is a sportier ride; the Fit IMAO has better visibility and a much smaller blind spot. If we were going to replace a car, a newer used Prius with the backup camera would be our way to go (I’d personally love to have an electric vehicle but we live in an HOA and I think it will take at least 5 years to get the plug-in stations set up in our parking lot)
BretH
Faced exactly the same decision, and literally today sold my ’03 Odyssey. I don’t need a minivan any longer and I have an ’12 Forester manual so after a lot of research I bought an ’11 Prius. I’ve been a Honda owner since forever, and the Forester was the first (and in all likelihood only) new car I ever bought and I never thought I’d get a prius, until I drove one.
It totally surprised me by being unsurprising. Now I love it for how it just works while getting amazing mileage. It’s also very versatile, and has great rear legroom.
Could have kept the van – I’m pretty good with minor repairs, but I really think that sooner rather than later it would need something major and I figured I’d never get as much for it as now .
Anna in Pdx
@Ruckus: the worst car ever sold was the Plymoith Reliant. That was my first car. Argh. It died on I-90 right outside of Philadelphia. One of the worst evenings of my life, for sure. (This was in 1991)
Ruckus
@Anna in Pdx:
Won’t argue, that was a piece of shit. Actually there were so many cars in the 70s to 90s that were just fucking horrible, to buy to own, to drive, to look at, that people actually paid for. Not all of them for sure but way, way too many. Hey we didn’t have the Reliant Robin here, speaking of bad Reliants. That thing was far worse than any American car of any time. If you look at it wrong it rolls over. A 3 wheeled car is just an abomination because it’s the worst of both motorcycles and cars without any redeeming qualities. And I like racing sidehacks, those motorcycles with three wheels, a driver and a passenger who has to jump around depending or which way the corner goes. Great fun to ride, you have to know what you are doing and work with each other or you crash. Like a go cart with a passenger. And a lot of horsepower.
Ramalama
@maurinsky: I had a 1996 Corolla and retired it at 405,000 miles. It was a great car for the first 350K or so. And then I had to seriously start replacing stuff because..stuff happens. When my car flunked the safety sticker check, needed new brakes, I realized I had to get another car. Partly due to he mileage of the Corolla but also I had to stop driving through the mountains with only a front wheel drive. I had long commutes to Quebec just about every week from Boston. And I’d been really lucky having been through countless snowstorms while on the highway and not crashing.
My mechanic said that 96 was a great year for Corollas – since he hardly ever worked on them, since they hardly ever needed work done on them. But at 400K I needed to stop gambling on my drives.
Got a Legacy GT wagon, used with high miles, with this weird stuff like a sunroof? Leather seats? Porsche engine? I had to get a cr loan since my income was really low and I didn’t have cash. Weirdly, it was the only subaru I could get a loan for. I tried for lesser vehicles but had to use a loan shark to get the car. Anyway, the minute I switched to the subaru, my life changed. Those long hours in the car melted like butter in that luxe ride. I counted – I drove through 10 snowstorms the first 2 months I got the Subaru, and it was the easiest thing in the world. My hands no longer tingled from holding on to a shaking steering wheel for 7-8-9-10 hours. I was no longer completely wasted – tired the next day after the drives. I could also drive my humongous Malamute in the back without him getting an upset stomach because the car didn’t vibrate like a tin can.
The gas mileage absolutely sucks. I did the math before buying the Subaru but was prepared for it because I needed the AWD and did not want to get an SUV. I’ve also had to shell out a crapload of money to do all kinds of repairs I never had to do on the Corolla. It’s the best driving car ever but I am always waiting for yet another shoe to drop on repairs for such a sensitive car. I paid off the loan early. I love this car but I bloody well hate the repairs. I also hate the Subaru dealer in our small redneck Quebecois town so much so that I am actually thinking about trying another manufacturer.
I liked reading everyone else’s reviews of their own cars.
HeartlandLiberal
This is a good year to deal with a Volkswagen dealer, on a new or used car, because of their self-inflicted reputation woes.. The Passat line model introduced in 2012 offers four or six cylinders, and various trim lines, from spartan to full blown sport trim. After our Mercedes was totaled last December, six weeks later we bough a 3013 six cylinder gas Passat in full sport trim. The leg room is better than the Mercedes. The trunk room is unbelievable and deep, plus back seats flip forward to carry long loads. The OEM warrant expires this month, so I bought the premium extended warranty thru my credit union two weeks ago. The officer at the credit union who helped me had looked up the extended warranty cost back in Spring, and by time I bought it in late August it come down almost $400. Apparently the model is developing a really good repair record, i.e., not needing major repairs as it ages. The car had less than 30000 miles, and drives like new. Great driving car. I have driven the four cylinder models, our is six, and even the four cylinder models drive with plenty of power. I did replace the 17 inch wheels with 16 inch VW OWM inch rims, mounted with higher profile Michelin tires, the sport low profile tires just became too harsh bouncing around town for our old geezer bones. So consider how plush you want to ride. Anyway, summary, look for roomy sedan, good price, and reliability, the gasoline engine Passat is a winner. FWIW, with the new tires, on road trip in SW Indiana a month ago on the new I-69, I averaged 29.8 miles a gallon driving at 75 miles an hour. Which is really not bad for a sport tuned sedan gasoline..
HeartlandLiberal
FWIW, a side note, and this all depends on how you like your car to feel when you drive it, but I rented a brand new Nissan Altima recently, and I swear, driving that barge was like driving a garbage scow. Totally unresponsive, slow, sluggish steering that would not stay on center. How can this be such a best selling model??Just saying, if you like to feel like you are controlling the car through the steering wheel, this is NOT the model to buy.
Hillary Rettig
@HeartlandLiberal: I’ve copied your post b/c lots of what you’re saying is resonating with me. I loved my (very) old Mercedes but could never justify buying another b/c of repair costs. From what you’re saying the Passat could be an alternative. Thanks for sharing the details.
navarro
my wife delivers a rural mail route which means she does it from her own vehicle. she’s been using a honda cr-v since 2008, first a new 2008 and then since 2 years ago a used 2011. in the 2012 and subsequent model years they put a console all the way from the dash to the back of the front seat which makes it unusable for someone who rides in the middle and has to get in and out a lot. if you want to torment a car salesman tell them you want a compact suv with either a bench seat or no midseat console. one guy’s eyes turned bloodshot within 5 seconds of asking that question.
our problem has always been one $2500+ repair too many. on the 08 we had to get a transmission job at a cost of around $2800 in 2012 and it ran great for another 15 months but then we needed a new radiator plus a couple of other things so we shelled out $3200 and then a month later we needed a new rear end. we should have just gone for the new car when the radiator went out rather than repairing it. it’s a real drag.
HeartlandLiberal
@Hillary Rettig: I promise you, with the wheel setup I switched to, and the interior bells and whistles, because I bought the top of the line 3.6 SEL sport trim, backup camera, electronics, navigation, the whole nine yards, you will think you are riding in a Mercedes. I convinced my wife by finding an online review comparing this Passat line and Mercedes mid range cars, and the reviewer decided the only notable difference was 1) you were giving up name recognition and status of the Mercedes, and 2) there was no difference otherwise.
I will also will make a side sociological observation. We are 70 years old. Driving the Mercedes was increasingly drawing attention in a negative way from people on the street, especially young toughs looking for geezers to harass. Seriously. Only ONE TIME in all my years have I ever had to brandish the gun I keep in the car. And it was because some mid-20s looking for trouble early on a Saturday morning decided my wife and I were easy targets at the crack of dawn on a mostly deserted street outside the diner we were headed for for breakfast. They retreated when I got out of the car with my gun at my side. I would have people yell at me “Grandpa get out of the way” driving the Mercedes, too. The Passat is the ultimate sleuth vehicle. It looks really nice, but is not flashy, and just does not draw that kind of attention.
Singing Truth to Power
@Steeplejack (phone): It’s pretty good on the highway. Because of its funky boxy shape, it suffers from some of the same problems vans do in high winds, but it is a fairly heavy little beast – almost 3500# for the short wheelbase model – and sticks to the road pretty well. I have to say that I don’t find the front seats very comfortable, but I got a $20 seat cushion at Costco that does the job. It’s a good road trip vehicle too –
Singing Truth to Power
@Steeplejack (phone): Another comment on the short wheelbase Ford Transit Connect wagon – it is only 14.6′ long, but the cargo volume with second row of seats out is 103.9 cubic feet.
jame
@? Martin: To sum up, your philosophy is the same as mine: Don’t fall in love with a car; it will not love you back.