Since we know that facts have a left-wing bias, this will probably fall on deaf ears:
Immigration has an overall positive impact on economic growth in the United States and has small-to-no effects on wages and employment for native-born workers, according to a new report.
Prepared by the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine, the report looked at immigration trends over the past 20 years to assess the economic impact of the now more than 40 million people living in the United States who were born in other countries. It found that immigration has an overall positive long-term impact on the economy.
It’s true that first generation immigrants can take more money from state, local and federal governments than native-born citizens, and that especially on a state and local level, it can be costly to educate the children of immigrants. But the report found that as adults, children of immigrants in the next generation are huge boosters of the economy, contributing more to the government in taxes than either their first-generation parents or native-born citizens.
So another hole in the vote Trump bullshit “argument.”
Trentrunner
Gonna need another comma.
Eric U.
I just got push-polled by a pro-Toomey organization. Funny thing was that Jill Stein didn’t even merit a mention in the list of presidential candidates.
Trentrunner
@Trentrunner: My work here is done.
Major Major Major Major
@Trentrunner: eh, it’s cromulent.
hovercraft
Why are liberals always lying to the American people?
Everyone knows that statistics come from the government, which lies about everything. We know that the books are cooked in order to make Obama, Hillary and Liberals look good.
hovercraft
@Eric U.:
Is she on the ballot in PA?
schrodinger's cat
I thought immigrants were snakes, zombies, poisoned skittles, rapists and murderers and we can attribute every evil under the American sun to them. That’s what Trumpster has been saying for over a year now.
lollipopguild
The sun rises in the east, water is wet, the sky is blue. Facts never matter to the right, never have , never will.
srv
No one refutes that for the socalist utopiaists its a good for them.
For all the real Americans thrown under the bus, it’s the economy, stupids.
Omnes Omnibus
@schrodinger’s cat: Ask the survivors of the indigenous tribes about that.
hovercraft
@efgoldman:
True that.
Mnemosyne
As is common with conservatives, they’ve been pointing the finger at all immigrants and claiming that they’re the problem when the problem is the employers who hire illegal workers, or deliberately underpay H1-B workers and keep them in virtual indentured servitude, or outright commit fraud and wage theft against their employees.
redshirt
They’re proud of it. They revel in being assholes.
I drive by a gun shop, and of course they have a sign to share their political views. After the Orlando shootings they offered a sale on AR-15’s and free cleanings for anyone bringing one in. This is after people die.
Today, they have a sign up which says “We are Trump deplorables”.
They’re proud of it. And I bet 100% they think they are the good guys. Devout Christians.
Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (Formerly Mumphrey, et al.)
But immigrants don’t look like us, they don’t speak English like us, they eat weird-ass food and they’re scary. Who cares if they don’t really hurt the economy (though we all know they really do)? To paraphrase Col. Nathan R. Jessep, we want that wall! We need that wall!
Major Major Major Major
@srv: aw, at least try!
schrodinger's cat
@Omnes Omnibus: But Trump is talking about the current wave of immigrants especially the ones that came after 1965, not the godly white settlers.
Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (Formerly Mumphrey, et al.)
@srv:
Jesus, dude, you really suck at this. Where did you learn how to troll? Trump University? ’Cause wherever it was, they ripped you off good.
Cacti
Being a Republican in the 21st century requires violently zealous belief in the demonstrably false.
lollipopguild
@schrodinger’s cat: You are correct! Everything else is Mooselum Terrorist in the White House’s fault or Satan in a Blue Pants Suit Hitler Clinton’s fault. Moose and Squirrel or Yogi the Bear are also to blame. And Roadrunner.
Eric U.
@hovercraft: I don’t know if she’s on the ballot in PA, but it would be really funny if she wasn’t. She just had a campaign event on Penn State’s main campus yesterday.
SiubhanDuinne
@efgoldman:
Yeah, it was Georgia.
hovercraft
@efgoldman:
I cracked up when they showed fields and fields of rotting tomatoes, and then they had farmers on bitching that they were offering 10 to 12 dollars an hour for pickers, and that people came for a day and then refused to come back. Good times. Raul Reyes of NBC reported that Trump is again advertising for foreign workers down in Florida for his resort. I’m sure that will show up in some Ads next month.
Srv
I like eating paste.
Mnemosyne
@efgoldman:
Yep, that’s what I was trying to get across: if employers can’t exploit immigrant labor, they’ll just go ahead and fraudulently exploit natural-born citizen labor and tell them they have to do it because Immigrants!
hovercraft
@Eric U.:
Well she has flown to the wrong city for a rally, so……
Felonius Monk
@srv: Is there a point you are trying to make or do you just like the smell of your own flatulence?
schrodinger's cat
@hovercraft: With all his Russian connections I am sure Trump has been misusing the J-1 visa for exchange visitors and scholars. There is a long paper trail for all temporary but long term visas like F-1 and J-1, H-1B etc. So another avenue to explore Trump’s wrongdoings and hypocrisy.
Felonius Monk
@schrodinger’s cat:
So many avenues to pursue, so many lazy journalists.
SiubhanDuinne
@Srv:
:: Snort ::
Well played, whoever you may be.
Steve in the ATL
@SiubhanDuinne: Alabama did it too!
Major Major Major Major
@SiubhanDuinne: at least this one’s honest.
Vhh
@efgoldman: Alabama, 2011. The crops started rotting, and even more importantly, high ranking execs from Honda (Japanese) and Mercedes (German) were arrested for not having ALL their ID and visa paperwork on them. Both firms have big factories in the state, and the governor had to kowtow. The idiot law is still on the books, but is no longer enforced.
srv
If liberals really cared about undocumented democrats, they’d want a wall to protect them from exploitation and wage slavery.
But all they really want is a vote to force their ideology on a free people.
p.a.
SF Fed study from several years ago: high immigrant areas result in higher native English-speaker wages. English ability becomes a positive market skill, those folks advance to management.
@efgoldman: ef I take issue with your past statement about lack of food diversity in N RI: I believe there is both Northern and Southern Italian food available! ?
MikeS
Jill Stein is on the ballot here in PA.
SiubhanDuinne
@Steve in the ATL:
Mo-o-o-om! Alabama started it!!
West of the Rockies (been a while)
@Srv:
And sniffing glue?
schrodinger's cat
Viking Cat will sing you the immigrant song.
joegy
@srv: you’re right. We all love you so much. Go to bed now grandpa. Green jello tomorrow!
p.a.
@efgoldman: The pcp I threatened with violence is in the building next door to it.
Felonius Monk
@srv:
Yes, we need a wall to protect us from your bullshit.
Elizabelle
The NY Times added this caveat to their story: Immigrants Aren’t Taking Americans’ Jobs, New Study Finds
That’s where you have a lot of H-1B abuse. I have seen it personally.
I would like to see The Mouse (Disney) socked with a billion dollar fine for outsourcing their Florida IT department. That was a blatant misuse of the H-1B program. It is not meant to supplant US workers, but is absolutely doing so in the tech sector.
Villago Delenda Est
@srv: HODOR!
p.a.
@efgoldman: There’s a T-R in Wakefield too, just found out on teh google.
Elizabelle
@schrodinger’s cat: I always love Viking Kittens.
And that kitteh wears that headgear well.
p.a.
@efgoldman: At work, our nicknames for Johnston were Ooh-fa City or The ‘Fanabla Valley. As an Italian-American I found them disturbingly accurate.
Steve in the ATL
@efgoldman: Y@p.a.: You guys are have an oddly specific conversation on an internet politics forum.
Or maybe I’m overly sensitive because my excellent doctor moved back to Cleveland. He even had a JD! Where am I going to find another JD/MD?
p.a.
@efgoldman: There’s a Malaysian restaurant in West Warwick, we could eat and get A.K’s comments at the same time. (It’s actually a generic Asian Chinese/Thai/Vietnamese etc. but with Malaysian owners and a Malaysian section of the menu. Actually it’s about time for a New England meet & greet I think.
raven
@efgoldman: Gwinnett County has more people than Boston.
Steve in the ATL
@efgoldman:
Yeah, I have a really long name, too. Sigh.
sunny raines
rational thought has nothing to do with trump and his supporters. Said another way: using rational argument is NOT the way to get supporters to change their mind and not vote for trump
Steve in the ATL
@raven:
And a shitload more diversity!
schrodinger's cat
@p.a.: RI is the only New England state I haven’t been to yet.
raven
@Steve in the ATL: I@Steve in the ATL: GGC is incredibly diverse. I was there when it as still GPC/UGA.
BruceFromOhio
@efgoldman: pats d has em rattled, and the crowd is into it also. Tough night to be Texan.
schrodinger's cat
John Cole@top
Any thoughts on Hillbilly whisperer’s NYT op-ed this morning?
FlipYrWhig
Do you think Trump, or Trump supporters, understand that immigrants, refugees, and terrorists aren’t three synonyms? Because they seem to use them interchangeably to mean Those Swarthy Types Up To No Good.
Doug R
@srv: What do you think most of the “lefty” concern re the TPP is about? I got mine, screw you! The fact that the TPP has labor provisions allowing for collectively negotiating wages and working conditions doesn’t seem to bother them.
Although VP candidate Tim Kaine is uncomfortable with how weak those provisions are, so there’s some wiggle room….
raven
@efgoldman: not sure, it was a stat used to justify the creation of Georgia Gwinnett College.
hovercraft
Data on early voting
North Carolina as of 9/22
These are the ballots that have been cast by party affiliation.
D 42% R 34 % Unaffiliated 25 % L <1 %
In 2012 the R's were ahead 5 points at this point.
Steve in the ATL
@FlipYrWhig:
This is a rhetorical question, right?
raven
Race Population % of Total
Total Population 805,321 100
White 429,563 53
Black or African American 190,167 23
Hispanic or Latino 162,035 20
Asian 85,292 10
Some Other Race 70,492 8
Two or More Races 25,292 3
American Indian 4,038 Below 1%
Three or more races 1,891 Below 1%
Native Hawaiian Pacific Islander 477 Below 1%
hovercraft
@FlipYrWhig:
As long as they’re not lily white, what difference does it make, what you call them?
Villago Delenda Est
@FlipYrWhig:
That is, after all, what it’s all about.
Major Major Major Major
@schrodinger’s cat: this is an example of something that really bothers me. People who have no idea of liberal history stumble into a liberal viewpoint (in Vance’s case, poor white awful people who believe terrible things deserve a just and responsive government too) and just act like they’re the first person to hold it, and then lecture the rest of us.
Steve in the ATL
@raven: I’m old enough to remember when Lawrenceville was considered nice. My last time there, about 6-7 years ago, for my daughter’s soccer game, the entire opposing squad was Hispanic. And/or Latina, I suppose–but based on the quality of their play I’m assuming there were no Brazilian girls on the team. I didn’t catch much of what was said on the pitch other than “puta” and “pendejo” when my daughter executed a slide tackle.
schrodinger's cat
@Major Major Major Major: Me too and his thesis about why they are mean made me roll my eyes. Shorter Vance, Hillbillies is mean because liberal elites point fingers at them and laugh.
NotMax
@raven
Naming kids Button after a Declaration signer from Georgia never did catch on, though.
Same holds for Lyman (also Georgia) and Elbridge (Mass.)
FlipYrWhig
@Doug R:
A thing they heard from a friend about how it was bad and corporate and neoliberal and also fracking?
FlipYrWhig
@schrodinger’s cat:
Good thing hillbillies never said anything mean about liberals or big cities or there would be what the Yalies would call “irony.”
Major Major Major Major
@FlipYrWhig: that’s the gist of it on my FB feed at least. Also St. Bernard said so.
hovercraft
@efgoldman:
They are not opening the ballots, they just count who has returned their ballots. So they are comparing apples to apples. Assuming that the polls indicating that both of them are getting between 88 and 90 % of their parties votes, she is in better shape than Obama was last time. Given the GOP craziness in NC, it is a very polarized state, so not a lot of crossover is expected.
EDIT: The Obama campaign used the numbers to track their GOTV efforts, and they said in ’08 this was how they knew they were going to win the state. They used it to push infrequent and new voters to vote, by basically harassing them till they voted.
Major Major Major Major
@hovercraft: so, this could be seen as evidence of the ground game gap.
Steve in the ATL
@efgoldman: Sounds like the country club where I spent my childhood–everyone spoke lockjaw
Srv
I can only troll for a few more minutes; mom needs to use her computer.
p.a.
@efgoldman:Nearest Vietnamese is in Pawtucket – I know nothing about it.
28a Bun Bo Hue excellent. 28 was good too, no longer on menu. 28a did not then become 28.
27 IIRC Cambodian glass noodle soup.
S3 Clay Pot Caramel sauce, choice of salmon, catfish, or pork.
SiubhanDuinne
@Srv:
Whoever you are, I adore you!
Omnes Omnibus
@schrodinger’s cat: I think he is full of shit. Not just today’s piece, but his whole persona. “Ew! I had never heard of sparkling water before I showed up at a BigLaw recruiting dinner at Yale Law.” Bullshit.
p.a.
comment in moderation because??
aidian
Coupla thoughts:
1) I did a deep dive into the available literature of the impact of immigration on wages a couple of years ago. What I found is there was really no scientific research to answer the question “what impact does illegal immigration have on working class wages.” There was some stuff that was in the same ballpark, but nothing really on point, and the closer you got to this issue the worse the data got. There’s a bunch of fairly obvious reasons for this — illegal immigration and the working class is about as far from ‘tenure track academic researcher at R1 university’ as one can possibly get.
2) Even if one stipulates that immigration increases the size of the economy as a whole, especially over time (which seems obvious), the fact is that these benefits aren’t evenly shared. The impacts of immigration on wages may be ‘small’ when measured against GDP or whatever aggregate statistics, but a) the data is suspect and b) the impact is not evenly distributed. It’s construction workers in California and food-service workers everywhere and agricultural laborers and meat packers in the midwest who are hurt by illegal immigration. And these are the groups who have already gotten screwed over repeatedly in recent years.
NotMax
@efgoldman
Except that gentleman pronounced his last name with a hard g, similar to Gary.
hovercraft
@schrodinger’s cat:
This is the same bullshit excuse conservatives have for everything.
Nancy was mean to us so we can’t cooperate.
Newt had to walk out of the back of the plane.
Obama was dismissive and sarcastic and mean
And every other time they are looked at sideways they have to throw a tantrum. Grow up and take responsibility for your actions and stop blaming everyone else.
@Major Major Major Major:
Yes, RMoney learned from ’08 and ramped up his ground game, now Hillary is doing the same. Trump not so much.
schrodinger's cat
@SiubhanDuinne: DougJ!
p.a.
@hovercraft: Trump’s ‘ground game’ is Rethug state legislatures and govs attacking voting rights.
schrodinger's cat
@Omnes Omnibus: I had seen him quoted by Bobo but had never read anything by him before this op-ed. It broke my bs meter but when I did a little research about him all I could find was praise from various MSM outlets.
Omnes Omnibus
@efgoldman: Parody parody troll probably gets irony.
? Martin
@efgoldman: 20-0. That’s a decent hole they’re in. Houston is their own worst enemy in this game, though.
schrodinger's cat
@Omnes Omnibus: This too meta, like a cat on the computer monitor meme. Its a converging infinite series.
Omnes Omnibus
@schrodinger’s cat: It’s Derrida’s world; we just live in it.
hovercraft
Perhaps these people just shouldn’t be allowed to speak in public without a written script.
sukabi
@efgoldman: Georgia…rotting fruit by the ton
Apparently there is a sTEEP learning curve in the south, Georgia passed their anti migrant law in 2011 and immediately felt the consequences, Alabama thinks rotting crop are awesome so passes similar legislation in 2013. They are still paying for their stupid racism.
? Martin
My son’s HS team had a great kicker. He could reliably drop the ball in either corner of the field, inside the 5 – that’s seriously hard. One corner, sure – but kicking opposite field accurately takes a lot of practice. Could put up FGs in the high 40s without much trouble. Rest of the team was pretty much shit, but that kid was amazing. I hope someone picked him up.
hovercraft
@efgoldman:
Yes, this is the one state where they are speculating that Rentboy will actually hurt Trump and Burr, who for some bizarre reason isn’t campaigning too hard.
Omnes Omnibus
@schrodinger’s cat: I read a couple of other pieces he wrote. He was raised hillbilly and then joined the Marines. After that, he went to Ohio State. Then Yale Law. I am sure he had some culture shocks along the way. But his hick shtick is overdone.
redshirt
@efgoldman: Intimidated by a 3rd string QB? If so, they deserve to lose.
Go Pats!
Go Sox!
sukabi
@Omnes Omnibus: plus he’s one of those pity party guys believing the poors are living it up on food stamps and welfare
eta, who spells mama mamaw?
hovercraft
@efgoldman:
Cook PVI R+10
I’m guessing no.
Mnemosyne
@Omnes Omnibus:
“This is Ohio. If you don’t have a brewski in your hand, you might as well be wearing a dress.”
Omnes Omnibus
@sukabi: Christ, what an asshole.
Mnemosyne
@aidian:
This is the tricky part, though: conservatives conflate “immigrant” and “illegal immigrant” to try and make people think that all immigrants are “stealing their jobs” when the problem is employers who hire illegal workers or exploit legal ones (like H1-B visas, which are basically indentured servitude without a contract).
Illegal workers probably do suppress wages at the bottom of the scale but, as I mentioned, there’s also wage theft and other shenanigans going on that mean legal workers (including natural-born citizens) get screwed that way as well. Look at the shit that places like Wal-Mart got caught doing when they were forcing people to clock out and keep working so they wouldn’t have to pay overtime.
Omnes Omnibus
@Mnemosyne: Heathers ref. That movie was set in a fictionalized version of Worthington, Ohio. An older money suburb of Columbus. More sophisticated than the movie indicated. When the guy was at OSU, he probably didn’t drink anything but Bud and Pepsi, but he had to have learned that other things existed. He is playing a character and he isn’t believable.
? Martin
27-0. Imagine if NE had even their 2nd string QB in.
Villago Delenda Est
@hovercraft: It’s scum like Pittenger who make hatred against whites perfectly understandable.
schrodinger's cat
@Mnemosyne:
That’s an exaggeration. For one there are strict time limits on how long you can be on an H1-B. Not all H1-Bs work in tech. There is abuse yes but saying that everyone who has been and ever been on an H1-B is an indentured servant is a bit of hyperbole.
Matt McIrvin
@Mnemosyne: They will also insist that anyone they hear speaking Spanish is an “illegal”. (Around here, such a person is likely as not to be Puerto Rican, and a native-born US citizen.)
Omnes Omnibus
@schrodinger’s cat: My ex’s sister and her husband came here on H1-Bs. They got hired by Microsoft and were paid the standard starting salary that MS paid at the time. After a while, ex-b-i-l got tired of MS and moved to Google with no issues. Anecdata.
Matt McIrvin
@NotMax: Hearing about Button Gwinnett used to remind me of a silly old Isaac Asimov story called “Button, Button”, about a guy who uses a sort of time machine to extract a genuine signature of Button Gwinnett to sell on the autograph market (the twist ending is what you probably guessed it is).
Now it just reminds me of the Mr. Show sketch about the Founding Fathers designing a flag nobody can poop on. “DOG PILE ON GWINNETT!”
schrodinger's cat
@Omnes Omnibus: I have many such anecdata too. Universities use H1-Bs when they hire their research staff, sometimes sponsor them for GCs and such. Getting an employment based GC takes years, so H1-B is used as a bridge visa. Sure there are employers who will string you along and then bail when the time comes to sponsor you.
Omnes Omnibus
@schrodinger’s cat: It is why I am distrustful of those who say that H1-Bs are automatically exploitative Also, again anecdata, after she had placed just behind her to-be-husband in a tech contest thingie, I asked her if she was the second best computer whatever in Romania as indicated by the contest. She paused for a moment – she is very nice but is rather humorless – and said. Well, top five.”
BeezusQ
So so so much stupid!
Two must readsforward.
Also this piece that he links to in the article is brilliant.
gq.com/story/a-word-for-donald-trump-voters
esquire.com/news-politics/politics/news/a48795/trump-election-normalizing-stupid/
Eric U.
@sukabi: I grew up in Appalachia, and mamaw is someone’s grandmother. Apparently it’s quite common. I think there may be a correspondingly weird term for grandfather, but I think it’s usually “grampaw”
Where I grew up, both words have 2 1/2 syllables, there is a dip and then rise for the ‘aw’ at the end. Of course, “milk” has at least 2 syllables there. Hard to explain in words.
@Omnes Omnibus: I’ve known a lot of h1-b holders indirectly through the people I’ve met in academia. I have never heard of anyone being exploited. I definitely have seen visa holders displacing U.S. citizens from jobs. Most of them were getting less than a similarly qualified U.S. citizen would get for the same job, but not much less. Not sure what to do about it.
Ian
@raven:
I know of no country with 800 million people. The US has 350 million.
Omnes Omnibus
@Eric U.: If the H1-B person is better than the US person, is it wrong? My anecdata people bought a house on Redmond and had a couple of anchor babies. Soon, they will be citizens. They will contribute value to this country.
Eric U.
@Omnes Omnibus: my anecdata is that the person was smart, but inflated their credentials. And the employer didn’t give a shit because they were saving 20 percent on wages. I see this credential inflation all the time with grad students.
I believe in stealing talent where we can get it. Having said that, we usually aren’t getting particularly talented people, just cheaper.