I asked some fellow elections pod hosts what question they would ask Trump at the debate. More on the latest show–> https://t.co/T2Fj9RbbvV pic.twitter.com/uJVzi0pHHR
— Jody Avirgan (@jodyavirgan) September 20, 2016
One hopes for a national political rotation away from the Summer Silly Season…
Donald Trump Jr.: My dad won't release his taxes because it'd hurt his "narrative" to give voters that information. https://t.co/E3f01kI9uD pic.twitter.com/6F5auQyU2Z
— Daniel Dale (@ddale8) September 21, 2016
“300 million independent auditors”. That’s practically poetry.
But be of (guardedly) good cheer…
New natl NBC/WSJ poll before Monday's debate (among likely voters):
Clinton 43
Trump 37
Johnson 9
Stein 3— Mark Murray (@mmurraypolitics) September 21, 2016
First tidbit from new NBC/WSJ poll: What concerns voters most about each candidate? https://t.co/l7x4Ff7XiN pic.twitter.com/wBU4dTsNi4
— Alex Seitz-Wald (@aseitzwald) September 21, 2016
rikyrah
Good Morning ?, Everyone ?
Mustang Bobby
Good morning to you, rikyrah!
For your morning editorial cartoon, Jim Morin.
sukabi
Where “narrative” = big fucking lies about wealth, indebtedness, and foreign connections.
Rob
The question from David Plotz has me wiping milk and cereal off my laptop screen.
Mustang Bobby
@Rob: Yes, but it completely ignores the search for the Entwives.
Schlemazel
@Rob:
My guess is Trumps answer would be better.
I’d also ask Trump if he would defend Quemoy-Matsu because I think the answer would be the same
JPL
@Schlemazel: Trump will say he won’t divulge his plan, but believe me, I’ll take care of it.
David ?▶️Hillary/Harley Quinn 2016▶️? Koch
Entire WNBA team knelt during the anthem last night during the playoffs.
(photo)
those girls got more guts than the entire NFL
Kay
I haven’t talked to a lot of Trump voters but it’s probably more than a hundred at this point and his dishonesty actually helps him with “moderates”. They don’t believe he’ll do the things they oppose. They believe the racism and outlandish claims are an act. I have no idea what you do with that. There’s no strategy or tactic for “I’m reassured because I don’t believe half of what he says”. What they’re really saying is he’s fooling the rubes into voting for him but his savvier voters see thru that and admire that he’s fooling the rubes, because he’ll need the unwashed masses. It’s pretty appalling, really, on just about every level. Incredibly cynical.
Rob
@Mustang Bobby #5: I hadn’t considered that aspect.
@Schlemazel #6: Indeed his answer would be better. I wish the Rohan question would be asked on Monday.
Rob
@David ?▶️Hillary/Harley Quinn 2016▶️? Koch #8: That is so awesome to read, especially the coach’s pride.
OzarkHillbilly
@Kay:
OK, now I’m starting to worry about you Kay.
Booger
“Should we intervene in Kwashiorkor or Urushiol?”
David ?▶️Hillary/Harley Quinn 2016▶️? Koch
Lester Holt: Mr Trump, which is heavier a pound of feathers or a pound of lead?
Trump: Lead, of course! Dopey media doesn’t think I know math. Sad!
Betty Cracker
@Kay: One of my uncles was Trump-curious for a while (during the primaries), and that’s how he waved away Trump’s absurd comments — that Trump didn’t really believe Mexicans were rapists and wasn’t really going to build a wall, etc,; it was all just an opening gambit in a negotiation. Fortunately, that particular uncle came to his senses later and is no longer considering Trump. I’m not sure what the final straw was for him. The Muslim ban, maybe.
Mustang Bobby
@Kay: I have heard people say that they don’t believe Trump will do what he says and that it’s all an act, but that they don’t trust Hillary Clinton. I usually leave the room at that point.
Luthe
@Schlemazel: I want to know Trump’s plan to address the illegal invasion of Narn by the Centauri Empire. And how he will improve our relationship with the Mimbari.
Kenneth Kohl
@Kay: it sounds like his “savvy” voters have more “rube” in them than they’d like to admit.
Kay
We have a former prosecutor here who is a Trump supporter and he asked me what it was “like” to have the only Clinton yard sign in my neighborhood. It’s a nasty question that wasn’t intended to elicit an answer so I didn’t answer and instead responded in kind – I asked him how he could support Trump since I worked with him and I know he’s enraged by liars and he told me “all politicians lie”. Since he’s a former politician I asked him if he lied the 2 times he ran and won and he was offended “no, I didn’t lie”. So all politicians lie except him. That’s what we’re dealing with. There’s no kind of tactic or clever maneuver that applies to this. It isn’t based on anything other than feelings or hunches and that’s why no fact touches it.
Matt McIrvin
@Kay:
A lot of cons are based on the idea that something illegal or dishonest is going on, but the mark is in on it.
RK
@Kay:
Of course it’s an act. Trump’s a self-aggrandizing opportunist who could easily run as a liberal if that would suit his needs. Some moderates may see his campaign as theater but I don’t think you could say it’s helping with them. In fact, I’d say it’s been a problem especially with women.
JPL
@Mustang Bobby: Trump surrounds himself with folks as racist and/or nuttier than he is. What role will Flynn play in his administration?
This is just speculation, but Trump could put Cruz on the shortlist for Supreme Court.
NorthLeft12
@Kay: “moderates”. I don’t know if that word has any meaning at all on the right hand side of the political spectrum.
The term “moderate Republican” is an oxymoron if I ever heard one.
John S.
@Kay:
Spot on. You just described my boss to a tee.
The man is brilliant. An amazing manager. I am proud to have him as a mentor. But for some reason, all logic goes out the window as he contorts himself into pretzels taking the most cynical views of Trump and his antics.
I really think it just comes down to the fact that he has a seething, irrational hatred for Clinton, and has no other way to justify his support of Trump without admitting that.
Splitting Image
@Kay:
I seem to recall that this was the case with Mitt Romney too. This year he’s tried to rebrand himself as the elder Republican statesman leading the fight against Trump, but I think he bears a lot of responsibility for the G.O.P.’s willingness to accept Trump’s constant lying. His “win” in the first debate in 2012 was due simply to his willingness to Gish Gallop his way through it.
Kay
@Matt McIrvin:
Right. I’ve heard that. That’s where “you can’t con an honest man” comes from, I guess.
I’ve noticed something that is probably related when I see people who have been conned in the law practice. They don’t report it. They don’t want people to know they were conned- there’s shame attached to it. I bet those are the people who went into it thinking they were conning someone else.
JMG
@Kay: They don’t realize they are the marks in this con. They’re the rubes.
Matt McIrvin
@RK:
He does seem to have a few strongly held political beliefs that have been constant throughout his life. Unfortunately, they’re all foolish and absurd. Racism and bluster about the need to crack down on non-white people doing crimes, that’s one. The need for reprisals against media that are mean to him is another, and the idea that we need to shaft our allies for money is another one.
Matt McIrvin
@Kay: Of course, you can con an honest man–that’s just a different variety of con.
NorthLeft12
@Mustang Bobby: My BIL posted a meme comparing how Dubya left office and how President Obama is leaving office and one of his friends posted a rant about not believing any numbers that this administration puts out, something about rumours that Sec. Clinton will skip the debates for fear of incriminating herself, voting for the least evil [Trump], and finally that he was just an honest, over taxed, hard working man.
I asked him if his rant was some kind of sarcastic performance art.
He responded that this is what he believes.
I really don’t know how you guys can deal with “honest” people like this, who believe what they want to and spread whatever self serving rumours and gossip that they want to. I can’t decide if this kind of mindset is due to an astounding level of ignorance, some deep rooted mental health issues, or just a banal strain of evil.
All three work for me.
Patricia Kayden
@Kay: Trump was found liable for discriminating against Black and Brown prospective tenants by the freaking Nixon administration so his racism is not an act. Neither was his birtherism an act. Or him taking out an ad to advocate for the death penalty for the Central Park accused rapists.
I think many of his supporters know it’s not an act and are fine with that.
nonynony
@Matt McIrvin:
yes. This is why Trump actually could not run as a liberal – at least not a 21st century liberal. He could have possibly been some kind of figure in the FDR coalition when racism was negotiable, but that time has passed. He wouldn’t have been able to pull it off because he has a long history of racism and a long history of saying nice things about authoritarian dictators (another thing that wouldn’t have been a problem in the 1930s when everyone was saying nice things about one authoritarian dictator or another, but is problematic for Democrats in the 21st century).
debbie
@Kay:
We’re dealing with unthinking people who latch onto a word or phrase as if for their life. First, it was that Trump was an “outsider,” now it is that he would “shake things up.” That video from the previous thread says it all. Trump supporters are vacuous; while they spout whatever their catchphrase of the day is, they smile as if they were doped up. They might admit something is not true, but stick to it anyway. There is no way to get through to them. They are lost.
OzarkHillbilly
@NorthLeft12:
FOX news.
Botsplainer
Had a case about 20 years ago where we used an old con man as an investigator. Wouldn’t have been a good witness because of his record, but he was great at ferreting out facts. Told me when he was running cons, he always had some criminality unit to insulate him from police reports.
He also showed me a quick change in action – I knew what he was doing and still couldn’t follow it. The confusion on the face of the cashier was palpable as he turned a $20 bill into $50 (he gave it back to her after the lesson was over).
Ceci n'est pas mon nym
@John S.: And the seething, irrational hatred comes down to her willingness in the 1990s to have an independent voice and career while her husband occupied the White House. That’s what got them mad in the first place. And she still hasn’t apologized for having a brain!
Snarki, child of Loki
I, for one, would like to hear what Trump plans to do in response to the takeover of Agrabah.
rikyrah
@Kay:
Ah, that White Privilege again.
I will say it again :
There is nothing in the history of America that makes me NOT take the man at his word.
Only way as a thinking Black person that I can see it.
Botsplainer
BTW, those percentages alarm me – particularly the Johnson numbers. If enough of those go back home to the mothership…
JMG
@Botsplainer: Almost every poll I’ve seen shows that Clinton gains when Johnson and Stein are eliminated from the question. She has more votes to get in that group than he does.
Kay
@Matt McIrvin:
There’s something to it though. We had a con that operated here. It was “teachers on summer break who paint houses”. Fake teachers who looked and sounded like no teacher I have ever encountered. Some of the people who got ripped off asked me questions about redress. In talking to them I realized that they DID know the bid was too good to be true. They took it because they believed naive teachers underbid a painting job and they were getting one over on the painters. It’s like a twist on “if if it seems too good to be true it isn’t”. They know it isn’t “true”. They just believe they are in taking advantage of someone else.
I feel like it isn’t discussed because the general approach to people who get ripped off is sympathy. But there’s a subset who aren’t at all victims. They hoped to victimize someone else.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Botsplainer: Trump isn’t the mothership for many of those Johnson folk.
ETA: What JMG said.
RK
Meet the liberal Trump.
That Trump’s a shapeshifter doesn’t mean he hasn’t painted himself into a policy corner to some extent for several reasons but it’s also possible he’d change his positions once in office if he felt he could successfully do so. But Trump’s opportunism since his Birther schtick is what makes him so despicable: It’s one thing to be a white nationalist, another to play one for personal gain.
satby
@rikyrah: Good morning to you, rikyrah! And to everyone else!
Day off today, so I have many Etsy orders to get caught up on, more unpacking, laundry, etc.etc. I’m enjoying my new job, but I should have asked to start it at least two weeks after I moved, not less than 1. At the rate I’m getting things unpacked, my children will be going through boxes after I’m dead.
Looking forward to hearing about Baud’s trip too.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@RK: If it’s an act, he’s been doing this act for 40 years.
OzarkHillbilly
@Kay: In STL they were called “College Student Painters” and they used mostly high school drop outs.
debbie
@Kay:
Those “teachers” were just another (smaller) version of Bernie Madoff. It seems to be human nature to be looking for a deal or an inside edge.
Kay
It’s funny because just the basics contradict Trump’s claims. He doesn’t work. He’s spent the last 4 years running for President. I don’t care how much you can do with modern communications, if you’re actually running a billion dollar business you can’t NOT work for 4 years.
It’s probably the reason more actual business people don’t run for President. Romney never said he was RUNNING Bain while campaigning 24/7, because that’s unbelievable on its face.
James E Powell
@John S.:
An awful lot of Trump support is rationalized hatred of Clinton. See also Sanders support. 25 years of propaganda paying off.
Kay
@OzarkHillbilly:
Right, because it’s a theme. There ARE teachers who paint houses in the summer and they’re “honest and hardworking”.
I have contempt for people who think they can pay shit for contracting and get good work. They’re dopes who undervalue hard work. They’re probably bad people :)
Tokyokie
@RK: I remember during the somewhat recent unpleasantness in the Balkans reading a news account of a study that looked into ethnic nationalist movements around the world (I can’t remember the time frame other than it was post-WWII) and the study’s conclusion was that ethnic nationalism is almost always a cover for criminal activity, like more than 90% of the time. Politicians like Radovan Karadžić are essentially gangsters who use ethnic hatred to whip up the masses and draw attention away from their looting the treasury and/or the assets of those groups they have demonized.
And I have seen nothing to convince me that der Trumpenführer isn’t the latest politician in that vile tradition.
bemused
@Kay:
Wow.
Cermet
@Kay: And the end result, if the Rump is elected will be, those that had thought the Rump had really fooled the rubes will be right; however, they are the very rubes that the Rump had fooled, The fact that congress will very likely be fully controlled by thugs (if the Rump did win) means they get all they have dreamed of as the Rump rubber stamps every single thug bill.
So-called “Moderates” like these need to not vote at all.
Anonymous At Work
@Rob: I think Trump would bluster through it. I somehow imagine that Clinton would get the reference and give an actual answer.
Denali
@Kay,
Fear trumps(sorry)racism. People are afraid; Trump plays on their fear; they don’t care if they are racist. And they don’t want a woman in power.
@Toyokie,
Just finished reading The Little Red Chairs, a superb novel based on the story of the war criminal/con man Rdovan Karadzic. It is one of those books which shows that fiction can reveal more truth than reality.
NorthLeft12
@Kay:
THIS^ THIS^ THIS^! That includes using cheap materials, etc. When my daughter and her husband were house hunting, my wife and I joined them on a few house tours. I saw some of the worst reno work that I have ever seen. I asked my SIL to see if he could find out who did the work, because if it was a local contractor I would make sure I avoided them in the future. Most of the shoddy work was DIY stuff……which is why I rarely do it myself unless I have 100% confidence and it is the type of work which is not visible and not critical to the function of the house.
Tokyokie
@Denali: Along those same lines, I highly recommend Philip Kerr’s Berlin Noir trilogy, a set of three detective novels set in Germany/Austria just before, during, and after WWII. They told me more about the Nazis and their enablers than any historical tomes I’ve read. (And it taught me that those who think they can control a demagogue are tragically mistaken.)
NotMax
So, what was scored during the NY trip?
Shan’t bore you with the full list of swag, however some here might get a glimmer of nostalgia from items picked up at a funky little shop called Old Candy. Wide, constantly changing choice of stuff ubiquitous during the 50s and 60s but not seen much anymore. (All as currently, if at all, marketed – not literally aged candy.)
For me, a couple of rolls of these, fondly remembered from kiddiehood (and still just as tasty now). Each still individually wrapped in wax paper, just as they were back when.
For Mom, one of her faves, which she said she hasn’t seen for sale in decades (and gushed over).
Also saw this dentist’s delight, but passed as its current incarnation is no longer chocolate covered as it used to be, nor on a stick anymore.
Did however bring back a couple of flavors of Bonomo Turkish Taffy bars – vanilla and banana – to introduce to the young’uns in our weekly dinner/gaming group.
Smiled myself at seeing chocolate cigarettes and pastel-colored candy cigars on the shelves.
Wapiti
@Tokyokie:
One of the things Kerr puts out there is that the members of existing German police forces were incorporated into the paramilitary death squads in Eastern Europe. I think of that story when I see the police in the US pushing back against Black Lives Matter, or endorsing the racist candidates.
gvg
@Kay: have there been any adds somehow pointing out that there are no other businessmen or investors saying how they got richer off a deal with Trump, through him being a good business manager? Only examples of people who got ripped off exist. Trump usually gets richer but no one else does. Even Maddoff made money for his earlier investors through his pyramid scheme. Trump is actually bad at business. These supporters who think they are in on the con need to be laughed at now, not wait till after the election. There has got to be a way to get them to see they are being suckers. If they wise up before voting, they won’t end up feeling as foolish…….
StringOnAStick
@Tokyokie: Thanks for the book rec. I’m always looking for things to read and having a rec from someone I know (sort of?) really helps.
Walker
@NorthLeft12:
I have come to fear DYI jobs made by the previous owner. Every major repair I have had to do was because of a hidden DYI from the previous owner. One time he fixed an ice line that spring a leak with duct tape. And then sealed that off when he finished the basement. Fun times.
We call them “(Name of the previous owner) specials”.
bk
Your over-reliance on tweets has made this site unreadable.
The Lodger
@Kenneth Kohl: These guys can’t spot the sucker at the p0ker table, but they’re sure it ain’t them.
Enhanced Voting Techinques
@Kay:
The correct and only reply to that guy is “Most people say the very same thing about lawyers. I mean after all the Clintons are lawyers”.
Elie
To me all the white folks who have convoluted rationales for supporting Trump are just uncomfortable admitting their racism and entitled white rage. They actually like and support all Trump advocates and also admire his belligerent and coarse name calling. Each of them has a little Trump inside. They just don’t want to say it out loud to anyone but they are right on board with all of this
stinger
@NotMax: Regal Crown sour cherry! I loved that! I remember all the ones you mention/link, but loved those candies.
stinger
@StringOnAStick: Same here. I’ve just added The Little Red Chairs and the Berlin Noir trilogy to my look-for list.
maurinsky
I know an older couple who are enthusiastic Trump supporters, and these are two lovely people in most respects. The husband rides his bike to grocery shop so he doesn’t contribute to greenhouse gases, but also doesn’t believe in climate change (just to give you an idea of the cognitive dissonance at play here). I don’t even know what to say to them. They do watch nothing but Fox News, and I expect that racism is a factor – they don’t exhibit any racism to any of the Latinos or black people that we both know, but I bet they feel differently about all those black and Latino people they don’t know, and I’m sure that their feelings about Muslims are terrible and take the shine off of their loveliness to people they know.
EBT
@RK: Between his father being in the Klan and his long history of redlining, I think deadbeat donnie really is just a racist shitbag.
Elie
@maurinsky:
Support of Trump for me is a show stopper for any existing friendship. I feel even more strongly about any black (or brown) “friend” who supports him. Up to now I have been laisez faire but not on this thing. Haven’t had the occasion but I might have to get up in a friends grillwork on that
sukabi
@Rob: equal human rights. Not just for white men. Most of us women get it, because it’s still lacking.
Aleta
@NotMax: brought to mind the little white candy cigarettes with the red tips that my brother and friends would swagger around with and talk tough.
(Vt Country Store online also sells some ‘old time’ candy made in traditional way. Saw another similar site once too. But being in a store and picking it out is part of the vintage taste I think.
J R in WV
@OzarkHillbilly:
Also, prosperity Gospel for a profit. Preaching Christianity with baked in heresy. It is attractive to believe that God wants you to be rich, even though Jesus preached that a camel will pass through the eye of a needle before a rich man will enter heaven.
I’m not a believer, but that doesn’t mean I’m ignorant about it.
Jesus preached love for all your neighbors. Which was heresy to Yahweh, who ordered his tribe to kill all the neighbors they could.
The prosperity gospel preachers teach that their flock should steal everything their neighbors have that they can get away with. Not in so many words, but that’s what they mean! Not Christianity. Completely different.
And it’s a big problem for a liberal nation based upon equality and freedom. When a religion based upon hate of the other becomes important, everyone else is in big trouble. No religion based upon hate can admit the least bit of logical reasoning through the door, lest someone realize that hate isn’t a good thing.
I worked with a wonderful couple from India. They came to America because they would have been killed if they had stayed in India. One was Hindu and one was Muslim. They fell in love, married, were having a great career in software, were delightful to work with. But would have been killed by a mob if they had stayed home.
That’s what we’re working against here.
Aleta
@J R in WV: Similar vein, I’ve been thinking about cult believers wrt Trump supporters. He’s had cult-like believers from the early days when he claimed his books and seminars would impart his secret mantra road to (as you said) prosperity. The TV show, more culty mesmerization. I think his political support goes beyond that, but a part of his supporters are under a spell.
The desire to join an unyielding group in order to change one’s identity ? Dangerous throughout history.
Steeplejack (tablet)
@NotMax:
I would love to find antique Sweet Tarts, made with the original recipe from the ’60s.
Aleta
@NotMax: regal crown sour cherry, sold 12 rolls at a time at VT Country Store (an actual general store with a porch) for 15 dol.
NorthLeft12
@Walker: And if you saw some awful looking work, you could be damn sure there were probably four jobs that you did not see. Personally, I would be embarrassed to have family and friends over to see the lousy work I had done. I have one BIL who has criticized the painting that my wife and I have done in the house.
NotMax
@Aleta
Probably sold through Amazon as well.
It’s just that had not seen them or so much as thought of them for over 50 years and was pleasantly surprised to spot them (and learn they’re still around and seemingly unchanged by the passage of time).
Betsy
@Kenneth Kohl: Bingo.