You know the crazy dream where you just did something with potentially catastrophic consequences and you beg the universe for a chance to take it back*? Apparently Donald Trump thinks you really can do that. Probably that is what growing up in a gilded little box does to you. Let’s say that young lord Fontleroy declares that he never called the cook awful names and daddy pointy hat backs him up. Who can say it ever happened? If your character bends that way already (#notallrichpamperedshits) then starting his work life as the rich boss would just make it worse.
How many times has this guy flatly denied he said something that you could easily find on tape or in writing? The debate added three, maybe four more examples to the list (I had a hard time keeping up). There was the one about the interview where he complained about employees getting pregnant. I predict Trump will especially regret the one about never paying income tax. That was the fatal rumor that scared the hell out of the Romney campaign. It really rubs ordinary voters the wrong way, and explaining it just makes the disconnect between you and them even worse. Instead of parrying the question and answering with transparency like Romney eventually did, Trump bragged about it like an eight year old who found a loophole in the literal terms of his curfew (“It makes me smart!”) and then he telegraphed how stupid that was by denying that he said what he clearly just said on live TV. This is such a gift to the opponent that you almost don’t know where to start. Maybe just stitch the exchange and his denial into a thirty second ad and run it without commentary.
Here’s a question that I dropped in the comments last night – does anyone have a comprehensive list of how many times Trump has denied saying something he is clearly on record having said? This is the sort of thing I used to count on from Steve Benen when he wrote the Carpetbagger blog. Any suggestions appreciated.
(*) If this means I should talk to a professional immediately, I never had that dream.
***Update***
Oh for fuck’s sake.
Trump insists ‘there was no sniffles’ during presidential debate
For the record, yeah, he sniffled a lot during the debate. Maybe he buried his face in coke in the green room, or maybe he’s just sick. Who knows. He should get that checked out.
RaflW
I completely agree that Trump needs to be hit hard, daily on the taxes. He opened himself up to an incredibly vulnerable line of attack on that last night.
Also the “OK, sure, I stiffed lots of contractors, but because they deserved it” (paraphrasing). He stiffed 1000s of people. They all did bad work, Donald? C’mon, that’s the rubbish a cheap-ass chisler who skips out on paying taxes says.
donnah
Privileged white male with narcissistic megalomania…he exists in his own mind as master of the universe. We can clearly see and hear all of his lies and we can post and repost them for everyone to see. The problem is that his fans and followers DO NOT CARE. There were live calls at CSPAN after th debate from his fans and they still love him. They think he can do all the things he’s promising and that he will make them happy and safe and rich, just like he is.
Hillary cleaned his clock and everyone knows it. Trump supporters will give it their best to spin it in his favor, but he got killed and Hillary owned the night. My hope is that she gained favor with some undecideds and motivated others to volunteer to GOTV across the country. I am proud of her. She is my next President. Trump is history.
MattF
It’s a puzzle. Anyone who’s a true Trumpite is also saying that the whole ‘truth’ thing just doesn’t matter, but is committed to believing Trump. How does that work?
PPCLI
I also liked the moment when Donald thought it was an adequate response to the discriminatory housing suit by saying “I settled that without admitting guilt” and liked that line so much he repeated it.
Very revealing glimpse into Deadbeat Donald’s mind-set: “If you can’t force me to admit it, it didn’t happen!”
The bit about “I should get credit for [unsaid: following Federal law and] opening a country club and allowing blacks and hispanics to join” was just icing on the cake.
SiubhanDuinne
@RaflW:
Can’t remember now who made the observation, but it was a good one — Donald claims all these people did substandard work, yet he tells us again and again that he hires and surrounds himself with “only the best people.” What makes his judgment in the one case so superior to the other?
PPCLI
@RaflW: Hey, Donald — I thought you only hired the best people. Are you really saying that you hired 1000s of people so incompetent that you had the right not to pay them what you had agreed?
Chris
The most obscene thing about his tax line is this:
It has been a widespread idea on right wing blogs for years and years that people who don’t pay taxes should not be allowedto vote, because you can’t allow people with no skin in the game to participate in the system. (“Skin in the game” is defined exclusively as money, of course. And “taxes” as income tax).
Any bets as to whether outraged right wingers will start saying the same thing about Donny? I ain’t holding my breath.
Amir Khalid
Meanwhile, Charles Pierce is probably wishing he’d never written this:
JMG
@donnah: Debates almost never change minds, or even bring in leaners and undecideds to the “winner.” What they CAN do is motivate natural supporters who might be too demoralized to work on a campaign or even to vote. I’m pretty sure Clinton accomplished that goal. But it’s going to be a very close election all the way.
Thoroughly Pizzled
It’s poetic that the first major woman candidate got to run against the earthly embodiment of toxic masculinity. Obama didn’t really get to run against an avatar of white awfulness, though Romney came sort of close.
Doug R
Hillary Clinton’s site had a fact checker page running last night. Here’s a greatest hits page.
Tim F.
@donnah: Some of his fans and followers picked up on it. According to some guy on Deadspin with a stronger stomach than I have, reviews on Stormfront were harsh. Nazis always did look down on the weak.
Wapiti
I’m boggled by this person, who has never worked for anyone else (except his own father), has likely never had a job interview, has never been elected to anything, has never served as a subordinate, and he expects to jump to the top of the government. I wonder if he can comprehend the idea that the President is the first servant of the people.
eclare
@RaflW: We need to get these people into commercials now, talking about how not getting their fair pay harmed them. I saw a few interviewed on one of the news shows a couple of months ago, you’d think the commercials would be out there by now.
Waldo
Curious what Trump’s strategy for the next debate will be. I just don’t see how he improves. If he can’t, quitting may be the least-damaging option.
MattF
@Waldo: Except that he believes he won this debate. So, he figures he’ll win the next one with more and better of the same thing.
Corner Stone
Even though IMO HRC won the debate in a clear and decisive manner, it won’t move any polls or very many votes. The people that wanted Trump were already locked in and still want what they want – vaporware.
However, IMO the outcome of that debate should have sealed off any remote chance Trump will ever be president. I think for all the handwringing done beforehand, HRC’s rock steady and vigorous performance is the firewall Trump is never going to get past.
Applejinx
@PPCLI:
…allowing? “ALLOWING”?!?
Fucker. Hate him. Did he actually say that? Because that’s obviously how he thinks about it.
NorthLeft12
@RaflW: Deadbeat Donald’s history of stiffing small contractors for payment on services rendered/contractual agreements is the one YUGE attacking point that I was very happy to see Hillary utilize. Her campaign showed great discipline by not publicizing this much [I think Biden talked about it and almost no one else] prior to the debate. Trump never had a response for it that made him out to be anything but a chiseling con man
I can’t believe there are any Trump supporters, excepting the lowest of the low, who would try and defend this or admire this In any way. The Trump supporters who don’t want to pay any taxes either is much, much larger than the cheapskate platoon IMO.
OzarkHillbilly
@Amir Khalid: In this election, cynicism is the default attitude and need not be regretted.
PPCLI
@Chris: Good point! Trump is one of the 47%. No skin in the game!
No wonder Romney can’t stand him. As Romney said “It’s not my job to care about those people.”…
But yes, it is no surprise that the Republican hard core won’t bat an eye. Any more than it is a surprise that the NRA has been strangely silent about Trump’s repeated claims that he will have police stop/frisk people on the street and take their guns.
eclare
@Waldo: I expect him to double down on the racism, misogyny, bigotry, and to bring up Bill’s past. Basically saying fuck this presidential shit, I gotta be me.
ETA: already doubled down on the misogyny this morning by going on Fox and trashing the beauty pageant queen
Corner Stone
And seeing people like the vicious jackhole Michele Caruso Cabrera coming on Moaning Joe to tell everyone how well Trump did last night. And that his one liner interruptions were “funny” and most people took them as being “funny”.
What a through and through piece of human garbage she is.
Tim F.
Looks like plenty of Freepers (Daily Kos link) also saw their man get beaten. Basically his most rabid base knows perfectly well what it looks like to get humiliated by a girl, and just stand there flailing, too proud and stupid to either make things better or even stop talking.
Gindy51
@Wapiti: Rich, white privilege.
PPCLI
@Applejinx: Sorry — I should have been more careful. I remember him saying “allowing”, or “letting”, but I haven’t checked the tape or transcript so those may not have been his exact words. I shouldn’t have used quotation marks,
amk
@Amir Khalid: proof one can write and
chewbedwet at the same time.Corner Stone
Trump’s rationale for not releasing his tax returns was once again held up to be nothing but a flat out lie.
Kay
I’m worried about his vitality. He tanked after 30 minutes. He lacks stamina. The way to win a negotiation with Donald Trump is to last longer than half an hour. Next debate Clinton can do her nails for the first half hour and then plug in. She should bring a book.
RaflW
Oh, and 27% crazification factor getting a story this am!
Cermet
Just so glade that Hillary did ‘clean his clock’ and that this should help motivate the faithful. Also, doesn’t hurt to get confirmation that your candidate is the better (by far) person. All in all, a very good night for Hillary and all of us!
different-church-lady
@MattF:
It only matters when it comes to the woman.
OzarkHillbilly
@Thoroughly Pizzled:
I would say Romney is the epitome of white cluelessness which while awful in it’s own way doesn’t come anywhere near Deadbeat Donny’s awfulness.
Tim F.
@Corner Stone: Nah, look more closely at his base supporters. These are alpha male pickup artist gamergate types. They know exactly what happened last night. Trump desperately needs undereducated white men to show up in much greater numbers than usual, and dimming their spirits is possibly the best thing Hillary could possibly do. If Trump gets his ass kicked again they will lose a lot of interest in November.
different-church-lady
@JMG: If flash polls and focus groups can be believed, this time was the “almost never”.
Botsplainer
If there is a god in the firmament above, pleasepleasePLEASE I’m hoping that Machado signed one of Trump’s nomdisparagement agreements which his incompetent shithead lawyers decide to try and enforce.
Amir Khalid
I know it’s not nice to mock the afflicted, but right now I’m watching “HILLARY IS EBIL!!1!lebenty-one!” HAha Goodman lose it on YouTube over he debate performance.
ETA: He’s claiming the online are polls all saying that Trump won.
NorthLeft12
@Corner Stone: I agree. The Trump supporters are also rabid Hillary haters. They will never vote for her. The best hope is that they stay home. Sec. Clinton’s solid performance did more to galvanize her supporters and perhaps convince some [not much of it though] of the third party voters to support her. Although the 3rd Party dumbasses contain a large per centage of haters as well.
Punchy
Dems, Indies, Conservatives, 5 year-olds, dogs, cats, fish, and Canadians all say he has a sniffing issue; Trump says no. So it’s a wash, and both sides disagree. Katie, what’s the latest on Benghazemail?
Tilda Swinton's Bald Cap
I was listening to the local DC sports talkers this morning, and it turns out that they are buddies with Chris Chinchilla. They were lamenting having to talk about boring old politics, but the debate was a yuuuuge event. The biggest moron on the show started whining about fact checking being partisan. Even Chinchilla had to correct his nonsense. These guys are the epitome of white privilege, they actually make a living talking about sports four hours a day, and even admit on air they actually don’t know that much about sports.
Applejinx
@Corner Stone: People who knuckle under to actual power will toady up to Clinton, because it’ll be obvious it’s a wave election. That constitutes rather a lot of the Republican electorate, especially the ranking ones (look how they’ve rolled over for Trump: now, try to picture them courageously defending him after he resoundingly loses. Go ahead, I’ll wait.)
Hillary’s really kicking over the anthill here. It will be a looooong time before they can undo the damage done by doubling down on authoritarian bootlicking, and trying to get Trump made President. Dumbest political move ever. They would have been in so much of a better position if they had simply fallen back and let Hillary be ‘coronated’ without polarizing things this way.
Their problem is, Trump being this bad gives Hillary political cover to respond to the leftward swing of the electorate (a global phenomenon). And her doing that is a path out of the bullshit, and a way to make America functional again, and the Republicans need to render America non-functional in order to win the way they are used to winning. And that’s a dangerous game, which they’re losing as of last night.
You’d better believe this puts votes in play. People want to have voted for the WINNER. That is not going to be Trump.
JMG
@different-church-lady: I should have amended my statement. In a close election, a debate doesn’t have to move a large percentage of minds to be very important. You know the media would sure as hell be saying debates are all important if Trump hadn’t blown this one so badly. I mean, I don’t care about Benghazi, but how can the Republican forget to mention it?
RaflW
@Thoroughly Pizzled:
I’d argue though that Romney was a very solid stand-in for how white privilege works in our country. He isn’t the Archie Bunker of race the way Trump is the Archie Bunker of misogyny, but Romney’s pernicious but quiet country club racism is what has respectably fucked up this country for generations.
cokane
always so weird comparing my own somewhat isolated (not checking web) experience to what gets on the interwebs. I didn’t pick up on the sniffles at all during the actual debate. Tho they seem obvious in clips later.
Was the same thing with Romney’s binders comment, which didnt seem memorable to me at the time. As well as Obama seeming “tired” or whatever.
germy
@Corner Stone:
I watched the entire debate. Wife and I agreed she won; he was terrible. HIs fans in the audience were disruptive. He often made no sense, while she was prepared and intelligent. After the debate, I checked my favorite blogs (including this one) plus some amusing tweets from people like Patton Oswalt and Bob Schooley, and saw I all the comments saying basically “She killed him! She murdered him! She won the debate hands down! Game over, man, game over!”
And then I listened to the radio and watched some of the experts on TV and they were all “Well, he held his own, while she was stiff. He made some misleading statements, but so did she.” (etc. etc.)
This morning I turned on our local news (for the weather report) and one announcer said “Some of the things Trump said didn’t pass the fact check, but Hillary made a comment about one of her plans, and the fact check said it was untrue because she would need the approval of congress, and good luck with that.”
So I’m here in my bubble, while my neighbors and co-workers believe what they hear on drive-time morning AM radio…
hovercraft
@MattF:
When reporters speak t his supporters and read them his crazy quotes they are not bothered because it’s not necessarily what he says that they love, it’s the way he says it and who he says it about. He’s hitting the smug, liberal people who they feel look down on them. So when he ‘exaggerates’ to make his point, or tweak his enemies it actually makes them love him more, because liberals and the media are screaming about how it’s offensive or not true, and Donald refuses to back down, apologize, and tow the line, he just tells them to all go to hell.They have been forced to stop saying things and using words for so long, and here is this great hero who says offensive things, and gets and with it, they love it.
amk
@RaflW: yup, mittbot was the epitome of institutional racism while this carnival barker is of the plain, garden variety kkk type.
Roger Moore
@RaflW:
And he stiffed the US government because he thinks it’s doing a bad job, which is why he desperately needs to become president and change everything. It all fits with the classic Republican POV.
JMG
@RaflW: In fairness, Romney has a very cynical view of ALL people. He is a competent administrator with views I deplore, but oddly for a pol, he doesn’t seem to much like folks, even his fans.
germy
So Trump’s mic was “too quiet” and he’s hinting this was a deliberate attempt at sabotage? Did he really say that, or is it some rawstory clickbait bullshit?
Bruce K
When people talk about “keeping the powder dry”, that blast from Clinton about Trump stiffing his contractors is what they were talking about, right? Save it for the moment when it’ll be the most devastating?
hovercraft
@PPCLI:
Total lack of awareness of how this sounds to normal people. Same mentality that lets Bill O’Reilly go on national TV and say how impressed he was that patrons at Sylvia’s were civilized, or that the slaves who built the White Hose didn’t have it that bad because they were fed, clothed and housed. These people don’t get it, saying that it’s smart to screw the little guy and not pay any taxes may go over well with you fellow ‘titans’, with the rest of us (excluding republicans), it sounds callous. Real people lost their homes and life savings.
PPCLI
@Punchy: Call Sean Hannity! He’ll back Trump up. No sniffles.
hovercraft
@Tim F.:
But the Drudge poll says he won 81 to 19, what you say is unpossible!
Thoroughly Pizzled
@RaflW: That’s a good perspective. I was giving Romney too much credit.
RaflW
@eclare: One of the things Alicia Machado did in her video posted last night was in fact to say that Trump cheated her out of the 10% royalty she was due for her work promoting his various crap palaces and third rate products.
But I agree, there need to be a series of ads with people he’s screwed. Chances are, Trump will call in to daytime TV and trash them again since he’s a walking, talking grudge machine.
Jeffro
I think it’s imperative that we spread the questions about Donald’s “cold” and be sure to use quotes around “cold” whenever talking about his “cold”.
(We can use air quotes whenever we talk with friends and relatives about Donald’s “cold”)
Let the right wing see how they like this sort of crappy, speculative, Cavuto-mark nonsense. About Donald’s “cold”
vhh
@MattF: This is called the “Führerprinzip” in the original German. In traditional English this translates as “Who are you going to believe, Me or your damned eyes?”
Corner Stone
Paul Ryan, what a jokehole. Such a sad little man.
Thoroughly Pizzled
It was pretty awesome hearing Donald Trump, Man of the People, talk about America’s shitty airports and tax-avoiding expats. Regular people problems.
Betty Cracker
Paunchy, elderly Trump went on Fox & Friends this morning to fat-shame the tall, lithe beauty pageant contestant. That’s definitely going to help him address the gender gap that threatens to utterly tank his candidacy.
Betty Cracker
Trump went on Fox & Friends this morning to fat-shame the pageant contestant. That’s definitely going to help him address the gender gap that threatens to utterly tank his candidacy.
Tilda Swinton's Bald Cap
@PPCLI: You may enjoy this.
Bobby Thomson
@Thoroughly Pizzled: Rmoney was kind of the avatar for white privilege, except that I never thought he was out and out stupid. Just oblivious and tone deaf.
Trump is the avatar for overt racism.
hovercraft
@different-church-lady:
Trump and his people are out trying hard to create a new reality, he won, everyone says so, he was very presidential and showed a great deal of restraint, and no he did not sniffle his way through the debate. Unfortunately for him, for a huge portion of the voters, this wasn’t the terrible media telling them stuff, this was what they saw and heard with their own eyes and ears.
JPL
Several newsies have said that Trump wasn’t prepared, or did not prepare enough. How do we know that? Maybe Trump did prepare, but is not capable of expressing deep ideas or plans.
Ruckus
@MattF:
It works because they are stupid and bigoted. There may be other levels that it works on but those two are by far the main reasons. You could reverse them, bigoted and stupid if that makes you feel better.
hovercraft
@Amir Khalid:
Online polls are so reliable.
Bill Arnold
@RaflW:
It is a fundamental constant of human nature. :-)
I don’t have a clue how to derive it from first principles, though. Perhaps something involving scale-free yadayadas?
catclub
But you have to wonder: What’s up with that nose?
bemused
@Kay:
Ha. love doing her nails image.
I thought it was a revealing projection for Trump, sweating, sniffing, struggling to stand still, to say Hillary doesn’t have the stamina to be president.
Knight of Nothing
@Amir Khalid: a lot to love about last night, but this bit about the “online polls” is pretty much my favorite. The polls cited have as much credibility as the ones that came up with “Boaty McBoatface” (for a science vessel) and “Hitler did nothing wrong” (for that new flavor of Mountain Dew).
germy
@catclub:
JJ Cale wrote a song about it.
Corner Stone
That Alicia Machado commercial is a pretty good one. He treated her like less than nothing and that comes through clearly in her ad. Ambushing her with reporters when she goes to workout? Saying, “this is somebody who likes to eat” ?
What a scumbag. I hope every R woman in the US is just mouthing the words her husband wants to hear to avoid fights and when the time comes to pull the lever…
hovercraft
@germy:
He said it, now if only someone would ask ow a mic that wasn’t picking up his voice in the hall was able to pick up his ‘breathing’?
MattF
@Amir Khalid: Pierce has changed his mind on this.
The Dangerman
@Waldo:
The scary thing is Trump may legitimately think he knocked it out of the park; I’m beginning to feel for his campaign manager. Trump on a teleprompter showed some signs of life lately and all of it was shit away. Truly stunning, really.
I guessed yesterday he’d claim rigged (“it was the microphone!”) and drop out of the next two debates. That may be the least damaging option indeed.
catclub
@germy:
And I was thinking that Mara Liasson saying that Hillary had Trump on the defensive most of the night was pretty clear “She clobbered him”
for NPR.
So, Rashomon.
jonas
@Amir Khalid:
To be fair to Pierce, that’s pretty much the only criticism even the most uncharitable pundits were able to make about Clinton’s performance. She was *too well* prepared. What a horribly disqualifying blunder!
Reminds me of the classic Mr. Burns line: “Honestly Smithers, I don’t know why Harvard even bothers to show up. They barely even won!”
Cermet
@hovercraft: If you have better, please share. Otherwise, you sound like tRump and boy, that isn’t a good thing … if you think we don’t know and understand the limit of polls, then maybe you need to join the tRump bandwagon; it has room for one more … .
RaflW
@cokane: I didn’t care about the sniffles (shades of the total bullshit Gore sighs thing). But the two times Trump groaned into his mic, particularly the time when race was being discussed. I am fairly sure black voters heard that. As did white voters like me who abhor his racist, angry, bitter orangeness.
catclub
@MattF:
Andrew Sullivan is criticized for being manic, but so is Pierce, when his immediately previous post was along the lines of: “There is no way Hillary can win the debate, she is doomed.”
SFAW
@Betty Cracker:
Why must you LIE about him? He’s not “paunchy,” he just has a few extra pounds. After all, his “doctor” said he weighs 230, and could Trump have a BP of 116/70 if he were “paunchy”? Those statins must reduce his BP something fierce, which I guess is a new use for them, too. Maybe Trump is also using leech therapy to drop his BP.
Assuming Trump loses, I think Eric Schneiderman should maybe have the NYS Medical Ethics Board (or whatever it’s called) have a little chat with “Doctor” Bornstein. Last I heard, it was not standard practice for a “doctor” to put false information in medical reports.
Cckids
@Punchy:
Oh, please. Trevor Noah even had asniff compilation on his show last night; implied Donald did coke as prep for debating. I can’t link because I’m on the phone, but look for it on Comedy Central. It was good.
Matt McIrvin
@RaflW: I see so many contractors on the street with huge poster-size Trump stickers pasted on their trucks. Those guys are Donald Trump’s natural prey. He lives on screwing them over. Maybe, maybe a few of them will get the message.
germy
@catclub:
wow! Mara said that? I didn’t hear her. She’s usually the master of the subtle art of casting doubt on everything Democrats say and do.
When she says Hillary had him on the defensive, I wonder if she tempered that statement with Hillary’s basic unfairness in cornering the poor man with dubious “facts”.
Corner Stone
@hovercraft: He was sucking wind like an out of shape boxer. Every other sentence he’d take a big pull of air in through his nose. Not the first time he’s displayed this but this time it lasted for 90 minutes. I think the man just has no stAHmin-UH.
catclub
@The Dangerman:
Why not? If he asks his supporters they already are saying this.
NotMax
Strictly for the record, it’s Fauntleroy, not Fontleroy.
germy
@RaflW: Yes, when HRC pointed out the strengths of the Black community, he sort of went “Ugh!”
germy
@NotMax: Fontleroy is the sans serif version.
Amir Khalid
@Knight of Nothing:
All those Britons voted for Boaty McBoatface because they figured it would be amusing to have that name on one of Her Majesty’s official government science ships. But with online political polling, what’s to stop HA Goodman from voting 150 times against Hillary and getting his friends to do the same?
jonas
@germy:
That’ll be Cokie Roberts’ job.
Jeffro
Really big picture – 3 thoughts:
1) She got Trump to admit, TWICE, that he has paid no federal income taxes for years AND that it “makes him smart”
2) She called him out on his “racist, birther lie” and he has no defense for that whatsoever
3) She has him all wound up for the next debate, where – knowing him as we unfortunately do – he’s going to be firing on all cylinders with the slimiest, scuzziest, most irrelevant attacks around. And she is going to filet him for it.
Now – 3 smaller thoughts:
1) Trump’s clearly for gun background checks and for not selling to those on the ‘no-fly’ list. That should make a nice ad…what say you, NRA?
2) Notice, she left plenty of ammo still in her ‘clip’ – Trump U, all his failed businesses, and lots more about how he has slandered everyone from the Khans to McCain to women to Hispanics.
3) He will likely “study” a bit for the next debate and think he has over-prepared. That’s when she can really hit him on specifics of whatever passes for his policies/plans.
germy
@catclub: Pierce is a sportswriter, and that’s how they are. The Grantland Rice gene.
Back in the 1920s, the humorist Robert Benchley wrote a parody of a Grantland Rice article: “Back snapped the ball!” was one line I remember, plus a bunch of overdramatic descriptions of players as Greek gods.
RaflW
@germy: A number of reporters in the spin room were tweeting about the mic thing.
I think what Trump was meaning was that he couldn’t get a rise out of his audience, except once when they broke decorum. He was complaining that the mic wasn’t working in the room. In other words, he was trying to say the P.A. wasn’t blasting his zingers for the audience to ohh, ahh, clap and laugh to.
He is incapable of producing a performance without instant adoring feedback. He very obviously surrounds himself with sycophantic yes-men and -women (and his deplorable offspring), so he just can’t comprehend a room that echoes emptily when he ‘nails her’ with his brilliance.
There was video of him appearing to argue with staff and even get cross at his son-in-law out by his motorcade. Completely spitballing here, but I can imagine he was agitated, saying “they messed with my mic! The audience didn’t respond!” and his staff/fam trying to explain to him the rules. And hes all “Rules? WTF are audience rules?”
catclub
@germy:
Of course she did. I think it was along the lines of ‘Trump made a good case against her on trade’.
aimai
@hovercraft: Oh come on–Bill O’Reilly was just doing us a public service,like Trump with birtherism, in telling me that black people did not, in fact,order tea by shrieking “give me my motherfuckin’ iced tea” in fine dining establishments.
Jeffro
@Corner Stone:
Don’t be silly, he has a “cold”. You know what I mean, a “cold”? That’s all. Donald had a “cold”.
germy
@Jeffro:
I loved his response to the housing discrimination lawsuits: “Hey, we were all being sued back then.”
Yeah, you sure were.
catclub
@germy: Never admit to a mistake.
Betty Cracker
@SFAW: There’s pretty good evidence that they (Trump and Bornstein) lied about Trump’s height (adding an inch) to keep him out of the “obese” category for the doctor’s report show-and-tell on Dr. Oz. All previous records of Trump’s height had him at 6’2″, but at age 70, he’d suddenly had a growth spurt and gained an inch in height, which coincidentally kept him out of the “obese” range and into merely “overweight.” Sounds legit! Seriously, I don’t give a shit how fat or thin someone is. But he’s got a lot of nerve publicly criticizing that pageant contestant. What a dick.
Calouste
@vhh: I think the American translation for “Führerprinzip” is “If the president does it, that means it’s not illegal,”
catclub
@RaflW:
Someone earlier last night linked to the ‘Grammar Nazi’ version of Downfall. That was funny.
Kay
@Betty Cracker:
I love the complete lack of awareness among Fox hosts. Their cable channel is a sewer of sexual harassment and coercion where they all put up with that gross old man pawing his employees for years.
So they decided to take the lead in attacking this woman. Just to really drive that home.
germy
@RaflW:
The rules were for the audience to keep quiet. Of course, the republicans in the audience (the party of law and order and rules and civility) were the first to yell and shout.
aimai
@Cermet: What the fuck? IIRC hovercraft is a respected Balloon Juice commenter and a woman of color. Where the fuck do you get off accusing her of being a Trump supporter?
NotMax
@Corner Stone
Also note that Mr. Stamina backed out of a planned appearance at a post-debate event in Suffolk County, a relatively quick drive from Hempstead in Nassau County.
bemused
A few months ago I heard Trump on my tv as I was busy with other stuff and his sucking air was so loud and noticeable, I had to stop what I was doing, watch and listen. At the time, I thought he was having high anxiety and almost hyperventilating. He reminded me of a bull snorting, pawing the ground ready to charge. Probably a combination of anxiety and anger that he has to defend his statements when everyone is supposed to acknowledge his awesomeness.
MCA1
@Applejinx: There is that. People do like to say in retrospect that they voted for the President.
My biggest concern/problem right now is that there are still far, far too many people who have swallowed so much of the “Oh, gaaawwwwd, Hillary Clinton. Blahhhhhh. She’s so awful” for half their lives that they can not or will not engage honestly in this campaign. I know this, because I hear it constantly. These people stayed away from last night’s debate, because they just KNOW that both candidates are terrible. Everyone’s been saying so at every party they’ve been to for the last 6 months. “None of the above.” “I can’t believe they’re the two candidates.” “What I think the whole thing is so depressing.” “I’d consider voting for Johnson because the system is so awful.”
To those people, I can only say, fuck off. Turn off twitter and actually sit for an hour, just one hour, and listen to the two of them speak. Their speeches are readily available anywhere. You will find that one candidate is squarely between the 40 yard lines. She may be on the other side of midfield from where you normally sit. She may be a little too Tracy Flick for you and/or remind you of your own inadequacies. She’s married to kind of a sleaze, whose presidency you may not have loved. She’s done some politician-y truth stretching over the course of her long career. She’s not inspirational in the way the current President is.
But, come. fucking. on. That’s at worst a spinach salad when you’d prefer the field greens. The other option is an actual, steaming shit between two pieces of moldy pumpernickel.
This election is not “They’re both terrible.” No. You don’t just walk away because you don’t “like” either candidate. One of these two people will be the next President of The United States of America. And one of the two of them is a walking, yammering extinction level threat to democracy and you personally. They are not comparable. There are degrees of bad, and Donald Trump is off the goddamned scales. Actually pay attention for a day or two and seek out unfiltered experience with the two candidates, and you cannot possibly come away thinking they are equally bad.
I blame our media, of course.
hovercraft
@Cermet:
I was being sarcastic. Online insta polls are the least reliable polls, and all of the legitimate insta polls had her winning going away. She won almost all of the focus groups, so I’m inclined to think she won. Chill, we had a good night but there’s still to f**k it up.
Mnemosyne
I love how Hillary knew exactly what buttons to push and pushed them every time. As soon as she dropped “NATO” into the middle of one of her answers, I turned to the rest of the viewing party and said, “Okay, now watch what happens. There is NO WAY he’s not going to take that bait.” And he did, immediately.
Kay
Alicia Machado, please go on Twitter and call Donald Trump fat- as a service to the country.
She should get a medal if she engages Donald Trump in a fight over who is fatter.
BR
Ok, you all know what time it is — TIME TO GOTV — SIGN UP. Time to press the advantage and bank early votes.
Chris
@RaflW:
Very much this.
That’s exactly what I loathed about Romney and everything he represented and why despite everything I still hate him more than I did Trump. The completely unearned respectability for a person who, really, was just about as bad as Trump was.
germy
@hovercraft: My favorite thing is when RW NutJobs leave pro-Trump comments on my local online news and they cite stupid online polls that they’ve voted on a hundred times. The ones that say in fine print on the bottom “Note: This is not a scientific poll. The results reflect only the opinions of those who chose to participate.”
Betty Cracker
@Kay: Yep. And the fact that the gross old creeper is a Trump adviser isn’t considered newsworthy. It’s maddening.
hovercraft
@aimai:
Well I guess I should thank him for telling the world that we also too have places where shirts and shoes are required. It’ reminds me of Trump tacking on at the end of his insult, “and some are good people”. The first part of the sentence or sentiment is so bad as to render the ‘compliment’ meaningless.
Hal
One point of confusion: is it possible to pay 0 federal taxes? I can see where exceptions and tax loopholes would greatly reduce your tax rate, but can you go all the way to no federal taxes owed?
PPCLI
@Kay: Though Fox wasn’t enabling him there. If you watch the faces of the three Foxoids, they are clearly uncomfortable and giving the most non-committal responses possible. The woman in the middle clearly looks disconcerted. They know he is hurting himself badly by dumping on this woman and talking about how “she was a problem” because “she gained lots of weight”.
hovercraft
@aimai:
Thanks, you are correct.
lurker dean
canadian journalist daniel dale makes a daily list of trump’s lies. because the US press can’t be bothered of course. i read somewhere that dale started this practice while covering rob ford.
https://www.indy100.com/article/this-journalist-is-listing-all-the-lies-donald-trump-tells-every-day-7322776
PPCLI
@Chris: Indeed. The remark that certain issues were very important, but needed to be discussed “in quiet rooms” rather than in public was a fatal tell for me.
gene108
@PPCLI:
I got a chuckle out of him saying everyone was discriminating against blacks back then, as if it made what he was doing O.K.
germy
@PPCLI:
The woman in the middle knows her high-paying Fox job would be in jeopardy if she ever gained even a small amount of extra weight. The thought probably terrified her.
PPCLI
@Hal: Sure. Especially if you have pieces of a lot of real estate, and can claim massive depreciation on all of them.
And that’s not even mentioning tricks like having payments sent to your foundation rather than yourself, to avoid taxation. And then using the untaxed money to buy portraits of yourself and pay legal settlements for cases you are sure to lose.
catclub
@Hal: Yes, of course. It is all a matter of finding expenses that cancel out income. My understanding is that depreciation (of real estate in particular) is an expense for real estate companies. So you heavily mortgage to buy a building, and both the interest payments and the depreciation are expenses to cancel out any income from other sides of the business.
ETA: I shake my tiny fist at you PPCLI!
Jeffro
@MCA1:
AMEN AMEN AY-MEN! While it won’t change most of their minds, these are the folks who need to be pushed back on, gently or not, good-naturedly or not, with a “ya gotta be kidding me”. Why is the whole thing depressing, Insightful Independent? There was a pretty clear display last night of one person who’s going to be ready for the job on Day 1, and one person who just needs to stay home and rant at his TV all day.
Corner Stone
@hovercraft: She may have been correct about some of it, but “respected”? Come on!
catclub
@gene108: So that must have been when he proudly said that his resort in Florida does not discriminate,
and has been complimented for his generosity in this regard.
Bill E Pilgrim
@catclub:
Raises hand.
People were making jokes about what it must be like in his inner circle in the limo or on the plane after the debate and I immediately thought that someone should do another Downfall parody, but the Grammar Nazi version seemed to fit.
Actually I want to see someone with video editing chops do a mix of Miss Teen South Carolina’s “and like the South Africa and the Iraq, such as..” and Trump’s “she was a very against police judge” and other beyond incoherent lines.
I mean, it was BAD. Anyone today spinning otherwise is like a salmon trying to climb Niagra Falls.
hovercraft
@Hal:
Yes, as a real estate ‘baron’. Basically all his properties ‘depreciate’ every year which is total bullshit, so every year even though his properties are actually appreciating in value, for tax purposes they get to claim they are depreciating in value. it is one of the most egregious loop holes in the tax code.
Eric U.
@Kay: next time he’s on one of the talk shows hosted by a comedian, they should ask him to take his shirt off. C’mon, Putin did it
Mnemosyne
Okay, last thing before I get ready for work: it was interesting to see Donald say about his taxes exactly what I’ve heard right-wing nut jobs say IRL, that it’s A-OK to not pay any taxes or cheat on them, because liberals are just going to waste the money anyway. Christ, what an asshole.
hovercraft
@Corner Stone:
I’d like to think I’m respected by non naked commenters.
How’s your girl Tamron today, is she tearing the bark off of anyone?
peach flavored shampoo
Howie Dean did the Dems a YUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGEEEEE benny last nite by opening up the door on coke use. Now, every self-respecting journo is going to ask the HRC campaign to comment, and their response had better be, “Well, I’m not sure if he’s on coke or something else, it would be irresponsible not to speculate”. Wash, rinse, repeat.
If Trump’s clowns can insinuate brain damage and ill health based on nothing, certainly the HRC campaign can opine on a Howard Dean statement about Daffy Don’s drug usage.
Tractarian
Check out Daniel Dale’s Twitter feed. He’s a Canadian journalist who’s been posting daily lists of the candidates’ untruths. It’s not limited to false denials, but it’s very useful.
Emma
@catclub: Well, in all honesty, a lot of people in lefty blogs were having nervous breakdowns for the same reasons: the expectations of Trump’s behavior were so low, my unborn cousin would have passed.
Bill E Pilgrim
@Tractarian: Not a comprehensive list but it is effective:
https://twitter.com/nowthisnews/status/780637027779932160
Jeffro
@peach flavored shampoo: I missed Dean, what did he say?
Citizen_X
@Kay:
Yeah, well, cocaine’ll do that to you.
NorthLeft12
@Jeffro: To say that Deadbeat Donald slandered Sen. McCain is a real reach. All Trump said was he did not consider him a hero because he was a POW. Said he prefers his heroes to not be captured.
Honestly, that is not slanderous at all. Frankly, I would not even call it an insult. It is a bit of a dig.
dmsilev
@peach flavored shampoo:
If asked, the Clinton campaign should tell reporters to go talk to Trump’s “doctor” (and yes, they should use the air quotes) and get his verdict.
? Martin
Get ready, everyone:
You know the GOP will coordinate to vote on every Benghazi, email, and Vince Foster question they can. I suspect the effort will fail because those are really only interesting to the fringe, but the leading question right now is:
with 187 votes. If the Dems are smart they won’t vote for gotcha Trump questions, but about ones that you can imagine less engaged voters caring about and just trust that Clinton will have an answer.
Bill E Pilgrim
@Emma: I think the lesson is that everyone saying “It’s not fair, all he has to do is avoid acting like a complete blithering idiot!” was giving him capabilities beyond his reach.
His campaign manager today only said that Hillary “needed to land a knockout punch and failed”. I mean, if the person running your campaign can only say okay he was beaten to a pulp but he managed to stay in the race — yikes.
? Martin
Someone front page this site. We have two weeks.
Jeffro
Just signed up for another voter registration shift this Sunday btw. GOTV people!!!
peach flavored shampoo
@Jeffro: He tweeted out that all that sniffling was possibly coke usage (I’m paraphrasing). Now the HRC camp can simply opine on his words, without being accused of being so unladylike.
scav
Random ponderings.
The very bones and sinews of the moral majority’s (and their heirs) religious structure are being revealed. Faith is all that matters, what they believe is true rather than any evidence to the contrary and there is a clear distinction between those of the faith and everyone else. Deference to their chosen authority is baked in hard. We all know that the true beleivers will look at der Donald on the stage and see da baaybe jebus before Herod’s court (Mocked! Abused! Magnificent Silence! Sniffles Stigmata!). Tom L painting should go here. And Pence clearly must believe in some sort of political afterlife because I’m finding it hard to believe he expects a GOP-promised political success in this one as reward for his abject submission in this one. Unless he really is just in it for whatever gravy served as “consultant” or “talking head” promised in this world because Golly is that man an slime-mold crawler.
BR
@? Martin:
Yes. Please repost often — looks like a lot of winger Qs on there now.
randy khan
@germy: I see what you did there.
? Martin
Another example:
That’s the top question under economy and jobs.
Top question under government and elections:
Under infrastructure and technology:
Under civil rights:
Yes, the biggest civil rights question we should be asking is whether you are an originalist on the 2nd amendment.
randy khan
@RaflW:
This was one of the reasons I thought he was at a disadvantage – he needs the audience reaction, and he wasn’t going to get it (not to mention that on at least one occasion, the audience seemed to be mocking him). His choices (at least in his head) in such cases are to go bigger than his usual level of bluster or to go a lot smaller, and neither plays well on TV.
gene108
@RaflW:
On a local Phily NPR show, a lawyer, who did work for Trump in Atlantic City called-in. He said he’d been stiffed or short-paid (can’t remember) on his bill. He said there were something like 3500 lawsuits against Trump for non-payment.
Thousands of more people chose not to sue, because it was not worth their time and/or money, since Trump is notorious for dragging cases against him out and hoping the other party quits.
The lawyer chose not to sue, for the reasons noted above.
? Martin
Oh god, it keeps getting worse:
We are not relinquishing internet control to the UN. This is going to wind up being ’30 questions that Alex Jones wants answers to’.
Matt McIrvin
@Waldo: Trump has announced outright that he’s going to go low and hit her on Bill’s sexual adventures. He can’t keep his mouth shut.
Bill E Pilgrim
Not a comprehensive list but it is effective
WereBear
A narcissist is never wrong. I was hoping for a full tantrum, but there’s two more debates to go.
And why are we astonished that Trump followers have no sense of what Reality is? Since 1980 there has been oceans of dollars poured into creating alternate institutions: Right wing news, think tanks, science, universities, pundits, and public relations. They make their own reality, people! This is what they must bank on, since reality has that liberal bias.
So their followers live in this alt-reality, this disconnected dream world of paranoid conspiracy and threats and MRE hoarding and gun fantasies. They wouldn’t know a fact if it sat in their living room and drank all their liquor.
I think we’re going to find out just how deep this rabbit hole goes.
Brachiator
The list is huge! Someone has already posted Trump tweets clearly from the Donald himself which proudly trumpet tales that he has subsequently trashes as lies. And his strategists and surrogates have been put in the position of also having to actively lie for him.
The sad thing is that after about a week of denouncing Trump’s bullshit for what it is, the political press has returned to meekly claiming that it’s not their job to fact check Trump or to make honest assessments about his weaknesses.
Trump is a sad little manchild who really believes that he can blatantly lie and have everyone else simply nod and agree.
Trump’s sniffles are so obvious a thing that, as I noted in another thread, the British comedian who does a Trump imitation on the BBC show “Dead Ringers” quickly incorporated it into his performance. And this started a couple of years ago.
randy khan
@Hal:
There was a very good New York Times article maybe 6 weeks ago (business section, not front of the paper, which may explain it to some) that concluded there was a pretty good chance that Trump doesn’t pay federal taxes at least some of the time. Tax law is incredibly favorable to real estate developers, and there are lots of techniques for sheltering income and gains on properties and essentially deferring taxation forever. (This, btw, is a strong argument for the estate tax.) The key point of the article wasn’t that Trump was abusing the system, but that the system was set up in such a way that it would be strange if he were paying much tax.
Apropos of that, my wife and I have a couple of rental properties, and I can tell you that depreciation really cuts down on the taxable income you get, and since you can carry losses forward from one year to another, it’s easy to go years without official making a profit, even with consistent positive cash flow.
hovercraft
@? Martin:
What no questions about the UN stealing our golfs?
hovercraft
@Matt McIrvin:
That was the thing he had planned to say/ ask last night, but because he respects Chelsea Clinton, he didn’t. He was planning to hit her on Juanita Broderick and Hillary’s ‘abuse’ if her. Where ever she is Hillary is saying “please proceed”.
randy khan
@? Martin:
That’s an ugly mess right now. Obviously it’s being freeped.
Brachiator
@scav:
Cool band name. Very, very bad name for a porn star or Vegas stripper.
gene108
@hovercraft:
You do not want to open the door to allowing companies to mark-up assets to market value. They are recorded at the value you bought them at on the books and you depreciate from there.
The amount of shenanigans you can pull, with allowing companies to mark assets up to market value will create a mess, because companies will be under pressure to show their assets have appreciated in value, so they can appear more valuable and thus have higher stock prices.
The amount of creative accounting and finance tactics involved would make Enron and MCI-WorldCom look like small time frauds.
Edit: We have a system for recording the value of assets. It’s not perfect. But no one’s come up with a better alternative.
NotMax
@hovercraft
Hey, those black helicopters don’t pay for themselves, don’tcha know.
(Couldn’t resist, based on your nym.)
Switching gears, repeated from above:
What hosting a debate means to the college or university where it takes place.
Thanks to the Hofstra alumni/alumnae and others who ponied up for the event.
Brachiator
@hovercraft:
Not always a problem. When the properties are sold, the depreciation is “recaptured” and the appreciation will be taxed at capital gain rates, which still may be advantageous for many reasons.
And as another poster noted, you don’t want to screw around with how you record the book value of assets, which could lead to other distortions.
Brachiator
@Bill E Pilgrim:
Damn. These people know how to stay on message. For the past couple of weeks, Trump’s people like to claim that Clinton is a terrible closer. Trump himself said this in some post-debate comments. Foolishly, Trump also uses this in his bizarre and offensive claim that it was he and he alone who could end the birther controversy (which he himself fed and kept alive).
But if this idiot and his dopey followers want to use boxing metaphors, Clinton clearly shredded a defenseless Trump with vicious cutting jabs and never even got touched herself. The refs should have stopped the fight early on because sputtering Trump was dead on his feet at the end of the first round.
Gindy51
@hovercraft: As far as our property is concerned, it appreciates every year. Our tractors, farm equipment, etc. depreciate every year. Our house is worth more than we bought it in 1998, lots more even with the crash of 2008. Our car from that era… oh hell no.
How the fuck do HIS buildings depreciate and ours do not? I guess it is different for a business than it is for a private citizen.
Donalbain
@Bill Arnold: The crazification factor is dependent on h*2.
Thick as two Planck’s.
cokane
@RaflW: o yeah that “UGH!” was very noticeable, though I felt like he assumed Clinton was going to call him racist at that point and he was trying to preempt it. You could tell he regretted it as soon as she said “the black church”
schrodinger's cat
@Donalbain: You do realize that Planck’s constant is an extremely small number that only matters at the atomic level and below. Physics joke fail.
Miss Bianca
@NotMax: Also, strictly for the record, little Lord Fauntleroy was actually a very sweet kid, very interested in the plight of the poor, because he was one of them – or had been, before all the old Earl’s other heirs died. Kind of ironic that he’s become the poster boy for privilege, because the whole point of the story is how his essential goodness as a character shames his selfish bastard of a grandfather into remembering that he actually has obligations to his tenants and the rest of society.
ETA: LLF is the anti-Trump, if you will. : )
TriassicSands
I was looking through HRC’s fact checking and came across this (my favorite):
Donald Trump: “When I look at myself in the first grade and I look at myself now, I’m basically the same…The temperament is not that different.”
It’s funny, but that is one of the very few things Trump has ever said that I believe. I’m not sure the 1st grade is precisely right — it might be kindergarten (imagine Trump building gigantic edifices out of blocks and them smearing his name all over them in gold paint) — but his temperament is definitely that of someone stuck in early childhood. I doubt Mr. and Mrs. Trump senior ever won any prizes for parenting.
TriassicSands
@Brachiator:
I came across Ross Douthat’s response to the debate at the Times and, remarkably, he thinks Trump won the opening round of the debate even though:
If you were already a Trump fan, then, yeah, he won that round. But he also won the whole debate, because, well, because Hillary is a “&*@^$” who belongs in jail. But no rational person (which excludes all Trump supporters, except maybe for those who hope he’ll destroy the country) thinks that interrupting, bullying, talking over, and being a crushing boor is a winning performance.
catclub
@schrodinger’s cat:
Not quite true. It also saves us from ultraviolet catastrophe – which would collapse the sun, which is large!
catclub
@Donalbain:
Thick as a whale omelet.
Monala
@eclare: I’ve seen a few commercials about this. A quick YouTube search (“Trump stiffs contractors”) will pull them up.
Applejinx
@Hal:
All of the ‘yes’, ask Elizabeth Warren. Ask Mark Blyth. I’ve seen a talk by him where he mentions how insane the tax system has become. Mark is a 1%er economics professor for Brown University, with a nice house and money in the bank.
He pays more taxes than either United Airlines, or Bank Of America. I’m not making that up and have no reason to doubt him (he took the trouble to go find out, and being the well-connected Ivy League economics prof he could get that information).
That’s one not-all-that-wealthy guy, paying more taxes than those two entire corporations. It’s possible my mom also pays more taxes than United Airlines and Bank Of America.
YES, if you’re willing to manipulate things hard enough, you can pay zero taxes, but only if you’re rich enough to. Trump does say he is constantly audited, and I saw someone posting that if you ever come out of an audit blameless you get three years before another. Apparently Trump’s audits are always because he always lies and cheats on his tax returns, and he always gets caught and pays in fines and settlements rather than actually in taxes.
It sounds exhausting to me, but then I’m not a narcissistic sociopath at war with basic reality :)
Cermet
@aimai: Didn’t see this; so, sorry for the late comment: oh, because she is of color I can’t point out the flaw in her logic nor use humor? She is respected – ok; so logical flaws are to be ignored? All I can say is – what the fuck are you saying? Her saying polls are pointless is not correct? Of course that logic is incorrect – they offer good guidance when there limits are clear. That they depend on assumptions is damn obvious.
Cermet
@hovercraft: Posting does not always translate as humor to to someone reading it – I understood it as a serious post and was puzzled; hence, my sharp rejoinder. Thanks for the explanation; so then I stand corrected (really sitting) and withdraw my statement.
rikyrah
@lurker dean:
Benen did it in 2012, with the Lies of Willard Romney. That’s what put him on the map in 2012. He admitted afterwards how down it got him.
I didn’t think he could handle Ferret Head too.
Ruckus
@Hal:
My accountant told me once that he could make out a federal tax return in which I’d pay no taxes on the corp that I owned. Not one cent. I would however be audited and he would win every point the IRS contested, he guaranteed it. He taught tax law an a major university and he knew his shit. I believed him. Then he went on to say it would cost me more to defend not paying the taxes than I saved so pay my fucking taxes. I answered yes sir and signed the return. He’s been a friend for over 40 yrs, and some of that is to his giving great advice.
Bonnie
Keith Olbermann has a rundown of 174 lies by Trump. It is in video form for GQ.
Ed
Michael Moore Says Trump ‘Won’ The Debate http://dailycaller.com/2016/09/27/michael-moore-says-trump-won-the-debate/
How Trump won over a bar full of undecideds and Democrats http://nypost.com/2016/09/26/the-best-debate-takes-come-from-inside-the-bar/
cwazycajun
@donnah: frank luntz polled a group of people some for drumpf some for Clinton and dammed near everyone after they watched the debate were going to vote for Clinton…he didn’t do himself any favors being being the Donald warts and all