Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Somebody needs to explain to DeSantis that nobody needs to do anything to make him look bad.

Republicans: slavery is when you own me. freedom is when I own you.

Make the republican party small enough to drown in a bathtub.

Too often we confuse noise with substance. too often we confuse setbacks with defeat.

The media handbook says “controversial” is the most negative description that can be used for a Republican.

I did not have this on my fuck 2022 bingo card.

The most dangerous place for a black man in America is in a white man’s imagination.

Donald Jessica Trump found guilty as fuck – May 30, 2024!

Conservatism: there are people the law protects but does not bind and others who the law binds but does not protect.

My right to basic bodily autonomy is not on the table. that’s the new deal.

Tick tock motherfuckers!

Schmidt just says fuck it, opens a tea shop.

This year has been the longest three days of putin’s life.

Dead end MAGA boomers crying about Talyor Swift being a Dem is my kind of music. Turn it up.

If you thought you’d already seen people saying the stupidest things possible on the internet, prepare yourselves.

In after Baud. Damn.

A thin legal pretext to veneer over their personal religious and political desires.

It looks like winning debates is a black job!

Every day Vance writes another chapter in the book called “Worst VP Pick Ever”.

If you are still in the gop, you are either an extremist yourself, or in bed with those who are.

Give the craziest people you know everything they want and hope they don’t ask for more? Great plan.

People are weird.

They think we are photo bombing their nice little lives.

You come for women, you’re gonna get your ass kicked.

You are here: Home / Elections / Election 2016 / More VP Debate Open Thread: “Who Won?”

More VP Debate Open Thread: “Who Won?”

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226Comments

  1. 1.

    Keith P.

    Pence keeps on throwing out boilerplate GOP positions, but the problem is that Trump’s positions are often in conflict with those. It’s trisecting a line…not possible to resolve.

  2. 2.

    BlueDWarrior

    I agree with the last tweet in the main post: Pence is really more trying to avoid getting sunk by Trump that actually defending Trumps bs straight up.

    He’s employing the generic National Republican playbook of “Just repeat your talking points regardless of what anyone else is telling you in real time, and hope no one actually stops you so that other person can rebut you in real time.”

  4. 4.

    ? Martin

    Yeah, Pence is doing a good job of defending conservatism. Not so good making a case for this election.

  5. 5.

    SiubhanDuinne, liberal mob enforcer bitch

    I’m sorry there’s no camera on the moderator. Every time she whispers “Please, Governor, it’s the Senator’s tu….” or “Senator, please, let the Governor fin….” I picture her making a really pained face and wringing her hands really hard.

  6. 6.

    Kay

    @dmsilev:

    It’s weird though. That’s the whole point of the VP debate- he’s supposed to hurt Clinton and defend Trump.

    I wonder if it will make Trump mad, that the second banana is running for President up there.

  7. 7.

    patroclus

    Pence is refusing to defend any of Trump’s actual statements – his entire shtick is to laugh it off as if Trump never actually said any of those things (even though Kaine is quoting him directly). Kaine’s aggressiveness is winning (and has won) this debate. On each and every substantive point – Kaine is knowledgeable and specific. In my view (admittedly not that of other observers), Kaine has made an impressive substantive case and has won this debate handily.

  8. 8.

    piratedan

    In all fairness to Pence, how the fuck can you defend what Donald Trump has said to a sane electorate… granted maybe only 70% of that electorate is sane and maybe only 40% of ’em vote but that’s a tall order to refute what has actually come out of his mouth…so he simply didn’t.

  12. 12.

    SiubhanDuinne, liberal mob enforcer bitch

    @Kay:

    Well, I think that’s part of why he announced he’d be live-tweeting the debate. Never forget who’s really in charge!

  13. 13.

    PsiFighter37

    @Keith P.: He’s co-moderating the debate on Sunday. A bit sad that I will be on a plane and probably missing the whole thing…

  15. 15.

    BlueDWarrior

    @patroclus: The problem I think a lot of people are having is that Pence is not reacting in a way that would show that Kaine is actually hitting him. Pence, to me, is only winning certain segments in the sense that he is not getting knocked down off his pedestal and trying to defend himself from the attack; you can seen Kaine looks much better when Pence is basically forced to engage him instead of repeat his talking points.

    Then again, I guess it’s really easy to look like a strong debater when you refuse to debate the points at hand, and only attack the straw man you set up yourself; again like Romney in the first debate of 2012.

  17. 17.

    SiubhanDuinne, liberal mob enforcer bitch

    @Keith P.:

    I think he’s co-modding Sunday’s Town Hall presidential debate, with Martha Radditz (who, I will remind everybody, was the other journalist on Trump’s helicopter last year along with Halperin’s).

    This debate would have benefitted from a co-mod, though.

  18. 18.

    amk

    Greg Sargent ‏@ThePlumLineGS 16m16 minutes ago

    Kaine working hard to get these out there:

    1) Trump insults of Mexicans/women/Obama

    2) Trump deportation plan

    2) Trump tax avoidance
    169 retweets 318 likes

    aka, doing his job.

  19. 19.

    SenyorDave

    @patroclus: Don’t see it being scored that way by viewers, I think this is a case where Clinton supporters will give it to Kaine, and Trump supporters will give it to Pence, and I think others will be pretty even. Kaine interrupts loudly too much, and people don’t like that. Pence lies all the time and just repeats the same thing and hopefully people won’t react well to that. They’re both doing their jobs, Kaine protecting Clinton, and Pence ignoring Trump and pretending that its just a normal Republican at the top of the ticket.

  21. 21.

    JMG

    The media theater critics (and the all-important Frank Luntz focus group) have already decided Pence won. My guess is that the instant polls showing who won will reflect nothing but the partisan makeup of the audience.

  24. 24.

    SiubhanDuinne, liberal mob enforcer bitch

    Kaine is nice and clear on the two foundations.

    And for the first time, the mod makes an on-point funny.

  26. 26.

    sigaba

    @SenyorDave: This is why the debates need to be completely reengineered. Photographically there are particular tropes you fulfill and as long as you do that you win, regardless of the facts or what you say.

  27. 27.

    tobie

    The problem with this debate is that every question comes out of a Republican frame. The world is dangerous, dangerous, dangerous. What are you going to do about it. Note there’s never a question like, How will you continue the job growth generated over the last eight years and at XX rate over the last four years? If your frame is that we’re in a state of doom and gloom, this automatically puts the Democrats in a defensive position.

    Somewhat out there: Kaine doesn’t seem to know where the camera is. Pence does.

  28. 28.

    dmsilev

    @Kay: Trump said he’s going to be live-Tweeting the debate; apparently it’s too much for him to let someone else get the spotlight for even an hour or two.

  29. 29.

    Mary G

    Kaine is settling down and making points now. Trump Organization is like an octopus with tentacles hidden all over the. Best positive case for Clinton Foundation I have heard. Question about North Korea ignored by Pence and answered by Kaine.

  34. 34.

    PPCLI

    I think the main thing that should come out of this debate is that someone might tell Chuck Todd and Brian Williams about the fact that Bush negotiated the Status of Forces agreement in Iraq. Not to know that is journalistic malpractice.

    It would be kind of nice if they also knew — being, you know, professional journalists and all — that to keep any troops in Iraq, Obama would have had to agree to allow US soldiers to be tried by Iraqi courts. Iraq was not going to budge an inch on that, and there is no way the US would send troops with that condition in place.

    Of course, another option would be to send troops in against the wishes of the Iraqi government, but that sort of thing tends not to end well.

  36. 36.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    daveweigel ‏@ daveweigel 4m4 minutes ago
    Pence winning debate on style, but repeatedly lying about a quote networks can run 24/7:

  38. 38.

    NotMax

    Kaine equipped with an abundance of ammo and apparently feels he must deploy every last unit of it.

  39. 39.

    Emma

    @Bailey: Except that from what y’all have been saying,, if he left it up to the moderator he would have had to resort to mime.

  41. 41.

    BlueDWarrior

    @sigaba: I’m not even sure how you’d do that, since a lot of human communication jumps off from non-verbal cues that are hard to manage from an institutional standpoint.

  43. 43.

    Elizabelle

    Social issues — straight to personal religious faith. Gag.

    However, knew Tim would respond re the death penalty. His answer is true and complete.

    And Pence talks about his Christian faith, but seeing how badly he and other GOP pols treat their fellow men — shabby, shabby, shabby. Waiting to hear his actual answer …..

  44. 44.

    Keith P.

    Best answer from Kaine so far on applying the death penalty as a Catholic. (and props for the Jesuit shoutout…good order)
    Pence seems to meander on the same answer, though

  49. 49.

    Bobby Thomson

    @Kay: Trump’s not smart enough to see that’s what’s going on. Plus it’s not as though Pence is saying something different than Trump would. Trump denies saying what you know he just said five minutes ago. The difference is that Trump is undisciplined and rambles. Pence just sticks to the lie.

  51. 51.

    WaterGirl

    “I’m just saying facts about your running mate.”

    edit: (yes, I am 10 minutes behind.)

  52. 52.

    sigaba

    @BlueDWarrior: Sound proof booths, Twenty-One-style, would be a start. I think introducing some game show elements would actually make it a lot more substantive. TV is essentially a know entertainment medium of simple actors and no context, game shows produce simple results, like one winner.

    The more you make the interchange mannered and filtered through the frame of a preecxisting trope, the more these kinds of body-language and rote lie repetition will be neutralized.

  56. 56.

    SenyorDave

    I think Pence’s style will play fairly well with viewers. The mushy middle doesn’t care about issues at all, they just like warm fuzzies. That being said, I don’t see how it helps when the top of the ticket is Trump.

  57. 57.

    Major Major Major Major

    My CNN mobile alert headline (from memory, accidentally made it go bye-bye):

    Tim Kaine says Trump failed to meet “Nixon standard” releasing taxes; Mike Pence says Trump used tax code ‘brilliantly’

    I imagine one thinks Kaine won seeing that.

  59. 59.

    piratedan

    considering most of us here on this blog are better informed than the guys with the microphones, my guess is that this will be spun as a win for the GOP, so the media can continue to spin their horserace narrative because any other type of coverage appears to be an anethema to the majority of the people who hold microphones and sit at desks for the majority of thew news media today.

  61. 61.

    Kay

    @SiubhanDuinne, liberal mob enforcer bitch:

    I think all of the Trump people think they’ll really be President if Trump wins- all of them- Pence, Christie, Guiliani, Gingrich. I think it’s the one and only reason they’re in this- as a power grab when Trump can’t do the job.

    Trump is paranoid though- Pence better mention his boss occasionally or the big whiny baby will get upset.

  66. 66.

    dmsilev

    “Senator, you whipped out that Mexican thing again”

    Well, that’s the porno version of the debate all sorted out.

  67. 67.

    Bobby Thomson

    @PPCLI:

    I think the main thing that should come out of this debate is that someone might tell fires Chuck Todd and Brian Williams

    Fixed. Williams is a twit and Todd is uneducable.

  69. 69.

    ? Martin

    @Baud: Yeah, too bad the whole debate isn’t as substantive as this segment. I don’t agree with Pence but it’s a real debate on issues.

  71. 71.

    WaterGirl

    @Kay:

    I think all of the Trump people think they’ll really be President if Trump wins- all of them- Pence, Christie, Guiliani, Gingrich. I think it’s the one and only reason they’re in this- as a power grab when Trump can’t do the job.

    Oh my gosh, you are completely right.

  72. 72.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    James Poniewozik ‏ poniewozik 20m20 minutes ago
    Mike Pence will solidly win this debate in his closing remarks, when he flatly denies that Donald Trump is running for president.

  73. 73.

    Elizabelle

    @Eolirin: And Pence HAS done a better job debating than Trump has.

    Maybe some folks will start saying Pence should be at the top of the ticket (a la Palin-McCain).

  75. 75.

    Mary G

    Pence getting hot under the collar now. Kaine is doing much better. Can quote Bible vs. Trump. And saying women should be trusted to make their own choices.

  77. 77.

    James E Powell

    @piratedan:

    I felt that way before it began. So long as Pence didn’t vomit on himself or admit that he can’t stand Trump personally, he’d be declared the winner. Another week of Trump going south in the polls would mean it’s over.

  78. 78.

    BlueDWarrior

    @Baud: The most important part of that answer to me from Kaine was that he kept it at a 35k ft. level about the base legality and morality surrounding abortion in general, rather than get down in the muck discussing particular methodologies. Because let’s be honest, dilation/extraction (aka partial birth abortion) is a squicky thing to talk about, and that most people will shut you out as soon as you start. That’s why the Right can term it something like ‘partial birth’ as a pejorative and basically dare anyone on the left to try and defend it in particular.

  84. 84.

    amk

    I can’t wait for the emmessem to claim that the help did better than donnie and for the deadbeat going full mental.

  85. 85.

    PPCLI

    @Major Major Major Major: Every time one of the Trump people use that “Trump used the tax code brilliantly.” line, the immediate response should be “How do you know that? We just have to take Donald’s word for it, since we can’t see his tax returns.” And if they say “he acted within the law” the response should be”How do you know that? We just have to take Donald’s word for it, since we can’t see his tax returns.”

  86. 86.

    Kay

    @Bobby Thomson:

    Plus it’s not as though Pence is saying something different than Trump would.

    I think it’s quite different. Trump vigorously defends the stupid things he says as passing for “an opinion”. Trump takes Trump very seriously. He has absolutely no sense of humor.

    Pence is like “oh, well the things that guy says…”

    I don’t know- maybe they’ll be able to pull it off, pretending Trump isn’t the Presidential candidate, but it’s pretty bizarre.

  89. 89.

    Anoniminous

    Pence is hitting all the Great Conservative Talking Points of 1988. Nobody who isn’t under the age of 60 or a Evangelical/Fundie dipshit cares.

  95. 95.

    Eolirin

    @Elizabelle: I cannot think of anything that would do more to get The Donald to start angrily flailing about causing tons of self harm in an attempt reassert dominance than that being the take away from the VP debates.

  97. 97.

    PsiFighter37

    Jake Tapper just said Pence won on style points. Tool’s gonna do what a tool’s gonna do.

  99. 99.

    Mary G

    I’m shocked, Jake Rapper thinks Pence won, but does acknowledge that Tim Kaine quoted Trump quite accurately and Pence declined to defend him.

  100. 100.

    PsiFighter37

    And Tapper just said if Trump wasn’t Trump, he’d be up 15 points. What a fucking asshole moron. I could give better analysis than this in any state – asleep, awake, drunk off my ass…

  103. 103.

    Kay

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    when he flatly denies that Donald Trump is running for president.

    Exactly. It’s all he can do, but, wow. This goes to whole new levels of unreality. I can’t even deal with this many layers of deceit.

    People should vote for Clinton because it’s simpler :)

  104. 104.

    MomSense

    What just happened? It seemed like slow talking lies and denials from Pence with fast facts and accusations from Kaine.

    I find the ease with which Pence lies and denies videotaped statements to be really troubling.

    But I have no idea how this will play to voters.

  105. 105.

    debbie

    Listening to Pence’s final statement, I was reminded of Palin. Not her garbled word salads so much as her golly, we’re gonna bring everyone together attitude.

  106. 106.

    James E Powell

    Before anyone gets all squirmy, recall that Lloyd Bentsen wiped the floor with Dan Quayle.

  107. 107.

    Baud

    Sorry, I can’t disagree that Pence was strong on style. He was smoother. That doesn’t mean he won, since substance and honesty matter to me.

  109. 109.

    Elizabelle

    Was it four or five or more mentions of “avalanche”?

    OT: has everyone seen “Everest?” Love that movie. Great soundtrack and cinematography.

    Gerson (PBS) gives Kaine points for accuracy and Pence points for style.

    Amy “High School Girl” Walters brought up Kaine’s interruptions as her first comment.

    PBS reporter says Kellyanne Conway is backstage in the spin room. So she’s still around.

  110. 110.

    Kay

    @PsiFighter37:

    You knew they were gonna throw Trump a lifeline.

    I’m pretty sure the VP isn’t supposed to ignore the guy at the top of the ticket though.

  112. 112.

    Bailey

    @Emma:

    Except that from what y’all have been saying,, if he left it up to the moderator he would have had to resort to mime.

    Not true. He did himself no favors with the interruptions. It only made for an incomprehensible bunch of noise. He was way, WAY better when he just let Pence say something stupid and then come back and dismantle the talking points. He was very good in that regard. But interrupting cow! Kaine stepped over his own message for a good portion of the debate.

  114. 114.

    PPCLI

    “Donald Trump and I would just never support legislation that would punish a woman for making the heartbreaking decision to terminate a pregnancy”

    WTF? Tell that to Purvi Patel, who Pence’s state threw in jail for 20 years for “feticide”. For having a miscarriage.

  116. 116.

    sigaba

    @James E Powell: “You’re no Jack Kennedy” is literally the only thing I know about from that debate, and that’s only because that line was repurposed for a joke on a Night Court episode.

    I was 8 at the time; imagine how much you knew about politics when you were 8. That’s what adult undecideds know today.

  120. 120.

    Peale

    Well I guess I’d rather be discussing the riveting but rather meaningless VP debate than discussing Assange’s October Surprise.

  122. 122.

    amk

    Alex Sherman
    ✔
    @sherman4949

    Pence: I’ll defend anything Trump said
    Kaine: OK, go for it
    Pence: He didn’t say any of the stuff he said. See? Done.
    7:39 AM – 5 Oct 2016

    In a nutshell.

  123. 123.

    hilts

    Dumbass cocksucker Chris Matthews criticized Kaine for interrupting Pence too much. This smarmy asshole can’t stop interrupting people on his stupid fucking Hardball show.

  128. 128.

    SiubhanDuinne, liberal mob enforcer bitch

    Thought Kaine did much better in the final 30 minutes or so. I wasn’t much impressed with him (on style only) early on, but once it was clear that everybody was going to crosstalk and interrupt whenever they felt like it (including the pathetic moderator), I didn’t mind as much. And on substance, of course, there was no comparison. Kaine took it running away.

  129. 129.

    Baud

    Kaine was best toward the end, but most people would have tuned out by then.

    Lots of good stuff for social media, however.

  130. 130.

    Warren Terra

    Frank Luntz focus group of OH uncommitted voters: Pence won the debate in a walk, almost unanimously, even a little bit reassured about Trump (!) – but none of them swayed in their votes by this result.

  131. 131.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    I agree with both of these

    Marc DuvoisinVerified account
    Kaine has calculated his job tonight is not to be likable, or to beat Pence, but to make stick whatever he can make stick to Trump.
    Josh Barro ‏@ jbarro 5m5 minutes ago
    Pence’s “That Mexican thing” & annoyance at discussing “implicit bias” betray contempt for considering how non-whites might view anything.

  132. 132.

    Jay C

    Thank God it’s over.

    Instant analysis: unfortunately, a draw.

    Kaine was marginally better on policy – when he bothered to articulate it – otherwise mostly canned talking points. Pence looked OK (even if most of what he said was entirely canned talking points).

    Mike’s big problem, though, is just like his running mate’s: a running litany of “he didn’t say that” when video evidence of Trump saying exactly “that” – or worse is readily available.

    For now that seems to be what the media is chewing over …

    Bottom line, IMO: no loss, but a blown opportunity.

  133. 133.

    ? Martin

    Since they need to win over undecided voters or Johnson voters, I think Pence failed at that, and Kaine may have grabbed a few. Overall probably a wash as far as the polls go. Pence should be a big win for the evangelicals, but they’re all-in for Trump anyway, so no real benefit from what I understand in the polls.

  137. 137.

    Another Scott

    I saw the whole thing. It was much more substantive than I thought it would be, and that’s a good thing. It was a little disconcerting for Kaine to be talking over Pence so much, but it was only off-and-on and not continuous. I wonder if Kaine felt he needed to do it to combat his reputation for being a “nice Dad” or something, or if there was something in particular that set him off. Overall, I think it worked for him, but I think that some of his best lines were lost in cross-talking.

    Pence was only preaching to his choir. He wasn’t even trying to expand his universe of voters. I liked how he completely blew off the question of how he and Trump would unite the country after the election, and only talked about how horrible Hillary and Obama were…

    Kaine won on substance and on actually answering the questions. Mrs. Greenspan and the folks at NPR’s Morning Edition will no doubt be horrified by how rude they were to talk over each other so often. But it’s hard for me to see them spinning it as a Pence victory.

    We’ll see…

    Cheers,
    Scott.
    (Who thinks it might be studied in detail by those who want to know how to counter the Gish Gallop.)

  138. 138.

    SenyorDave

    I don’t think Kaine’s style played well at all. And I do think he missed opportunities. Pence lied the whole time, but he was calm and didn’t flub.

  140. 140.

    Bailey

    @amk:

    you got gish galloped. congrats

    I forgot that up is down here and down is up.

    Kaine’s substance was on target, but his interrupting style stepped all over that. He was devastatingly effective when he wasn’t interrupting. Sorry, I don’t think I’m a traitor for pointing out the obvious.

  141. 141.

    Mnemosyne

    @BlueDWarrior:

    I’m willing to defend it in particular: sometimes, it’s the only way to safely remove a doomed fetus and preserve the mother’s fertility. If we’re picking and choosing medical procedures based on the “ick” factor, should Dick Cheney have been allowed to rob a dead person’s corpse so he could use its heart to keep himself alive?

    And to veer away from the present, I’ve been reading up on Georgian England (roughly mid-1700s to mid-1800s) and came across a pretty horrifying description of a partial-birth abortion that became necessary to save the mother’s life when the fetus died during labor. That was in the pre-anesthetic, pre-antibiotic days, so not only did the mother have to endure it while fully awake, the family then had to pray afterwards that she wouldn’t subsequently die of an infection.

    So, yeah, fuck the people who whine about how “icky” lifesaving procedures are.

  142. 142.

    Mary G

    CNN undecided voters give it to Kaine. Trapper says they are biased because they are Virginians.

  144. 144.

    Jeffro

    @Bobby Thomson:

    The difference is that Trump is undisciplined and rambles. Pence just sticks to the lie.

    Pence is almost Reaganesque that way, isn’t he? You all know that’s what we’re going to hear a bit of in the a.m. right?

  145. 145.

    patroclus

    Oh well, it looks like I’m in the vast minority on this. It’s not the first time. Kaine won handily on style and (especially) substance. No doubt in my mind whatsoever.

  148. 148.

    gogol's wife

    @Mary G:

    I wonder if he’s trying to make up for the fact that he committed some journalism with Giuliani the other day.

  149. 149.

    PsiFighter37

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: I’m sure they focus-tested the crap out of this and determined that was more important than if the chatter was that Pence won the debate. They both have similar qualifications on paper (even if Pence is a nutjob), so I think it was going to be hard to really be all that concerned on that front.

    Kaine definitely needs to improve if he’s on the top of the ticket in 2024, though. I would be interested to see how this debate performance compares to those he had while running for the Senate in 2012 or for governor in 2005.

  150. 150.

    Warren Terra

    I stand by my earlier judgment: Kaine was appallingly bad at communicating/explaining/defending policy, even though had the facts on his side.

    On the other hand: he effectively (if obviously scriptedly) attacked Trump (though the Russia attack needs a lot of polish), and the swivel to pointing out Pence wouldn’t defend Trump was good. If we assume veep nominees can’t actually benefit their sides, reinforcing Trump’s negatives was maybe the smart play.

    If so, Kaine helped the ticket without helping himself. If that was the plan, I guess it speaks well of him. But I wish he’d done a better job of presenting a Democratic vision.

  153. 153.

    Suzanne

    I never want to hear another word about “partial birth abortion” from a politician. If we need to discuss dilation and extraction, I’d like to note that it is practically only performed on women who are dying.

  154. 154.

    Kay

    @Baud:

    I saw they’re saying “the Johnson voters” (who are mythical,btw) are coming to Clinton’s corner as this goes on.

    I was hoping for that- I wanted her out of the 40’s.

  156. 156.

    Bobby Thomson

    Again, everyone seems to have forgotten that Biden repeatedly interrupted Ryan.

    Didn’t watch this but the double standard HERE was palpable. When Kaine did it it was interrupting; when Pence did it it was filibustering. Y’all are shitty surrogates.

  160. 160.

    Kay

    @Suzanne:

    I’d like to note that it is practically only performed on women who are dying.

    I wonder why people are reluctant to raise that. I’ve read a little about it and, boy, if women knew that this far Right stuff on abortion could delay life-saving intervention we’d be having a much better debate.

  163. 163.

    Baud

    @Bobby Thomson: Biden was able to project dominance. Kaine stayed a nice guy. That was the main difference.

    Pence is a smooth talking politician. I’ll give him that.

  164. 164.

    sdhays

    @Mary G: Jake Tapper is clearly still smarting from when President Obama said he’s not a real journalist at Obama’s last White House Correspondents Dinner. He and Donald Trump should form a club for people horribly scarred (“not strong enough”, as Donald would say) by being mocked by the sitting President of the United States in front of their “friends”…

  165. 165.

    Mary G

    Van Jones said Kaine committed the small sin of interrupting and Pence committed the large sin of lying.

  166. 166.

    Elie

    Hillary was perfect against Trump’s energy. She was sharp but light – she smiled as she stuck the rapier in his ribs. Kaine swam in his lane and kept the relay going with us slightly ahead. Hilz will bring it home in the last two legs. This is HER job and she is ready and up for it.

    PS: Can someone take Bill and take him on a cruise to Vanuatu or wherever for a few weeks. Lordy, I knew it had been too long since he stuck another foot in his mouth…PLEEZ someone take him somewhere…

  167. 167.

    LAC

    @Bailey: I think he threw pence off and that was good. You are not dealing with a normal ticket, so this handwringing over interruptions of the lying shit by pence about trump is meh worthy.

  169. 169.

    hovercraft

    The fact that it took Fucking Steve Schmidt to correctly point out that Pence failed is pathetic.

  170. 170.

    Jeffro

    @Jay C:

    Mike’s big problem, though, is just like his running mate’s: a running litany of “he didn’t say that” when video evidence of Trump saying exactly “that” – or worse is readily available.

    For now that seems to be what the media is chewing over …

    I have a funny feeling that the Clinton oppo, ad, and social media teams are about to help ol’ Pence-ster remember just those very things…

  173. 173.

    Face

    @Warren Terra: If you think peeps are watching for in-depth policy discussions….whoa boy! Repubs want Pence to land noogeys, Dems want Kaine to land a dutch rub or two.

  174. 174.

    PsiFighter37

    @Mary G: Nice to see Van not being a tool (he’s been annoyingly contrarian when I’ve watched him on CNN the few times I put it on pre-debate).

  175. 175.

    MomSense

    So after a long discussion on MSNBC where they discussed how dishonest Pence was to deny statements that they have on video (or lying to normal people) they then decide to talk about whether Pence should be the nominee in 2020?! Isn’t repeatedly lying like Pence just did disqualifying? Are they really willing to say that style points or optics are more important than telling the truth?

  177. 177.

    SiubhanDuinne, liberal mob enforcer bitch

    @schrodinger’s cat:

    Pence won on style and Kaine won on substance. We know what the MSM judges on.

    Well, but that’s exactly the problem, isn’t it? That’s why some of us are commenting on style points, because those are of utmost importance to the MSM and therefore those are what will be communicated nonstop to the viewing public.

  182. 182.

    Kay

    @Baud:

    It’s odd though. I personally think it doesn’t get brought up because people have two categories – women who are headed toward giving birth and women who are heading toward an abortion.

    That isn’t the way it works though- those two groups aren’t completely separate. No one talks about abortion within the context of childbirth, but that’s where it can be necessary.

  183. 183.

    Suzanne

    @Kay: It’s really horrible to think about, due to how it is performed. That’s why Dems back away from it—except with people who have some degree of medical knowledge, it is stomach-turning and there is no soundbite-friendly way to defend it. But it is incredibly rare, and only done when there is no other way to preserve the woman’s life and health. It would be nice if we could tell the GOP that a small government doesn’t come into the surgical suite.

  184. 184.

    Bailey

    @LAC:

    I think he threw pence off and that was good. You are not dealing with a normal ticket, so this handwringing over interruptions of the lying shit by pence about trump is meh worthy.

    I don’t think he threw Pence off of anything, which is the problem. Kaine had some great counter-jabs that were just absolutely lost in all of that. Pence didn’t get rattled from the interruptions. Kaine could have STILL beat Pence on points AND style AND overall effectiveness.

  185. 185.

    weaselone

    @Warren Terra:

    I don’t buy the unanimous decision of Pence being the winner, although I would say objectively, Pence probably put in the stronger overall performance. The not altering the vote seems legitimate though. One, it’s the VP candidates and two the margin and manner of victory was so trivial, I can’t see it shifting many opinions.

    I am curious about the after debate. Pence will get credit from the press for the victory, but there’s some pretty notable, easily identifiable and quotable lies from Pence and some good sold shots taken by Kaine. Those are probably what’s going to get replay in the media and could be more important than the “win” as far as candidate support is concerned.

  186. 186.

    Mary G

    Begala says Pence threw Trump under the bus setting himself up to run in 2020.

    Van brings up a good point, Kaine didn’t bring up any of Pence’s own horrible record.

  187. 187.

    MomSense

    Pence was a statesman? When he was finally asked to say specifically how they would achieve safe zones in Syria he defaulted to doing what we are doing now. Whenever they are asked for details they cannot produce.

  189. 189.

    Anne Laurie

    @PsiFighter37:

    Sully has been on suicide watch virtually this entire debate.

    Mike Pence is Andrew Sullivan’s beau ideal politician — an old white anti-human-services bigot with a mouthful of cheap pieties and a headful of really great hair.

  191. 191.

    SiubhanDuinne, liberal mob enforcer bitch

    Aaaaaand…I just got the CNN headline: “Kaine and Pence repeatedly talked over each other….”

  192. 192.

    pattonbt

    This debate doesn’t matter. It would change nothing if either of the two had crushed the other. VP debates simply do not change the landscape (or at least to date never have). This is just a snack for the pundit class to chew on until Sunday. This will be forgotten in 2 days tops. I don’t even know why they bother with these.

  193. 193.

    Steeplejack (phone)

    @BlueDWarrior:

    Just braved a minute of NBC post-debate coverage. Rachel talking to some Republican hack about Trump live-tweeting: “Is that just some Trumptastic thing?” Shoot me now.

    Back to the baseball game, which turned out to be great and is going into extra innings.

  194. 194.

    Bailey

    @Mary G:

    Begala says Pence threw Trump under the bus setting himself up to run in 2020.

    Van brings up a good point, Kaine didn’t bring up any of Pence’s own horrible record.

    I really wish Kaine would have brought up his anti-LGBT governorship in Indiana. That was kind of big news.

  195. 195.

    James E Powell

    @MomSense:

    Are they really willing to say that style points or optics are more important than telling the truth?

    They are more than willing. All cable shows argue – by their words and by the way they produce their shows – that style points and optics are all that matters. That’s how we got George W Bush. It’s also why the GOP has never been able to land a glove on Obama.

  196. 196.

    Kay

    @Mnemosyne:

    I felt like the case in Ireland would start the debate- people would wonder “is that an abortion?”. Because it is ,of course. They don’t put it within that context. They should. That’s where health and life of the mother exception” came from.

  198. 198.

    Warren Terra

    @MomSense:

    they then decide to talk about whether Pence should be the nominee in 2020?! Isn’t repeatedly lying like Pence just did disqualifying?

    Please let me introduce you to the 2016 GOP nominee …

    And, for that matter, Romney got the nomination by running against his centrist record, then won the first debate by presenting a candidacy completely at odds with everything he’d been saying for the preceding year, befuddling Obama (who adjusted and cleaned his clock the next time).

  199. 199.

    Suzanne

    @Mnemosyne: No, I know. My point is just that it is only performed when time is of the essence to preserve the woman’s life and health, and as a last resort. It’s not like we’re getting knocked up all over the place, waiting 24 weeks, and then deciding that we want partial-both abortions. It’s not something done at a Planned Parenthood clinic. It’s major emergency surgery.

  200. 200.

    Elie

    @Suzanne:

    That is true, but with these folks, its never the facts. Its the family who goes through this that could speak to it — how it feels to terminate a pregnancy that far along because the mother needs immediate treatment or will die. And hear me — what a specialized skill that is — the experience and training a doc needs to do it…

    sigh.

  201. 201.

    SiubhanDuinne, liberal mob enforcer bitch

    @Baud:

    I have several acquaintances who are not themselves especially aware politically but know I am, so they are always asking my opinion on things political. I’ll wait until tomorrow night when they’ve had 24 hours to marinate in whatever soup CNN and all provide, and see what the overall consensus is then.

  203. 203.

    Lizzy L

    @MomSense: The emessem is not going to say that being a smooth talker is more important than telling the truth — and they are not going to say that telling the truth is more important than being a smooth talker. But by presenting those two qualities as if they carried the same moral weight, they inevitably privilege the smooth talker over the truth-teller. And they absolutely refuse to see that, because admitting it would expose the moral vacuity of what they do. They just can’t.

  207. 207.

    Warren Terra

    @Bailey:

    I really wish Kaine would have brought up his anti-LGBT governorship in Indiana. That was kind of big news.

    I mean, sure, but I can’t see it as a priority: no-one’s voting for either veep nominee, so attacking Pence is a bit moot, and anyone who cares about LGBTQ issues enough for it to affect their vote, whether they’re LGBTQ themselves or just a decent human being, knows which campaign is helmed by a volcano of bigotry allied to the Fundamentalists, and which is set to continue Obama’s legacy and has its own strong track record.

  208. 208.

    LAC

    @Bailey: I disagree.pence having no response or in denial about trump said weakens his position. I liked kaine getting in his face and this was not unique to some previous VP debates. All pence did was repeat tired talking points.

  210. 210.

    Mnemosyne

    @Kay:

    I think people think that couldn’t happen here, so they refuse to think about it.

    And, yes, even nutty fundamentalists don’t think of it as an “abortion” if they need to do it. Didn’t someone read over Santorum’s description of his wife’s “miscarriage” and realize that what had actually happened was that the doctors induced labor after the fetus died, which is an abortion?

  213. 213.

    Bailey

    @Mary G:

    Yeah, leaving out the mandatory funerals for fetuses was bad. Hillary needs every woman’s vote he can get.

    I had managed to forget that. Horrific.

  214. 214.

    JR in WV

    @MomSense:

    They don’t read it as a book. They have “Bible Study” sessions where they take some verses and dig into them without any of the context (such as there is available) around those verses.

    They dig into every word of the 200-300 word section they’ve all studied for a week, and don’t consider any of the other words in the whole book, because we’re working on II Moo. 25:42 today.

    In this manner they never get a picture of the meaning of the actual book. And they concentrate on Paul to the exclusion of the actual words of the Christ as reported.

  217. 217.

    Suzanne

    @Elie: They make me sick.

    There was a prominent case here in PHX in which a woman who already was a mom of three or four kids went to a Catholic hospital dying while pregnant, and the head nurse, who was also a nun, authorized an abortion to save the woman’s life. The woman survived and the nun was excommunicated, and that was the end of me ever seeking care at Catholic hospitals. That fetus was never going to survive and the nurse saved three or four children from being orphaned, and got excommunicated for it. There is no circumstance in which government has any role in this scenario.

  218. 218.

    Elie

    @Mnemosyne:

    No. Sorry. Induced labor or extraction after fetal death is not an abortion. Depending on the gestational age, its a D&C or D&E. I am being technical but its important for us advocates to get it right..

  219. 219.

    Another Scott

    @MomSense: He looked worried to me. Pence knew he couldn’t defend the things that Trump said. So he just lied. But he knew that everyone has video of Trump saying the things he said, so the anti-Trump/Pence ads write themselves.

    Even when he kinda had a point, he made it worse for Trump. “He also said some of them were good people! You always leave that out!!11″ Does he really think that anyone of Mexican background is going to be assuaged by that? Does he really think that’s a winning come-back to anyone except to the neo-Nazi types that are his base?

    The bottom line is that Pence couldn’t defend any of those half-a-dozen things that Trump said. That has to be the absolute 0th order instruction to a VP candidate in a debate – Defend the Candidate. Pence failed. Kaine did that job to perfection.

    Yeah, in the greater scheme of things, it probably doesn’t matter much. But I think Kaine did very well even with his interruptions.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  220. 220.

    Cckids

    @Elizabelle: If you’ve read “Into Thin Air”, Everest, beautiful though it is, craps on several people’s lives & deaths. There wasn’t a stalwart hero & a stoner slacker, just talented people making tragic errors in judgment.

    Sorry to rant, but Everest really rubbed me the wrong way.

  221. 221.

    Elie

    @Suzanne:

    Oh yeah… Lots of stories like that. Also lots of stories where docs from Catholic hospitals will send their patients under the table to get treatment. It is an event of unmatched emotional intensity. Being with these moms and dads or just with the women grieving and yet knowing what is essential for her life and/or their existing children. My goodness! That politicians exploit that is just so — unbelievably painful and wrong… I really have a hard time talking about it…

  225. 225.

    Dmbeaster

    @Elizabelle: Good photography in Everest but a weak telling of the incident. Several of the shots are on the South Col route, so fairly realistic. Krakauer hated the movie, and called it total bull. Go read Into Thin Air. And if the subject interests you, get Everest: A Mouraineering History by Walt Unsworth.

  226. 226.

    No One You Know

    @Mary G: Misses the point. Kaine doesn’t have to make Pence look bad. He had to make Trump look bad by showing how weak Pence is at rebutting criticism of Trump’s record.

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