Pence looks better than Kaine in the moment, but the post-game fact checking is going to be brutal. #VPDebate
— Wyeth Ruthven (@wyethwire) October 5, 2016
People have often said that Trump's positions and statements are indefensible; Pence is proving them right
— Dan Pfeiffer (@danpfeiffer) October 5, 2016
apparently mike pence is so scared of gay people he doesn't wanna admit he's on the same ticket as another man
— Matt Bellassai (@MattBellassai) October 5, 2016
From the Guardian liveblog:
Last question: How would you bring the country together if elected?
Kaine: Clinton was first lady, senator and now the nominee. I’m surprised all the time by how well people say they worked with her. He names children’s health care and care for 9/11 survivors. “She has a track record of working across the aisle to make things happen.” He mentions he had two Republican- controlled legislatures while governor.
Pence: Thank you thank you. “This is a very challenging time in the life of the nation. .. an economy that’s truly struggling… more taxes, regulation, Obamacare, war on coal, trade deals that have put American workers in the backseat. “The best way we can bring American workers together is through change in Washington DC… The American people want to see our people standing tall again… and Donald Trump’s entire career has been about building… finding a way… to fight forward. When Donald Trump because president of the United States, we’re going to have a stronger America.
Tim Kaine is running for Vice President in 2016. Mike Pence is running for president in 2020.
— Jon Lovett (@jonlovett) October 5, 2016
I'm not entirely sure but I think Mike Pence just made a pitch for World War III.
— Charles P. Pierce (@ESQPolitics) October 5, 2016
Pence is hurting himself by contemptuously dismissing Kaine statements everyone knows is true.
— Dan Kennedy (@dankennedy_nu) October 5, 2016
Pence is a guy who could speak in very calm tones about how killing and eating you is the only logical course of action.
— Bob Schooley (@Rschooley) October 5, 2016
Pence: "Senator, that's pretty low"
Your running mate calls ppl pigs, slobs & rapists, BUT YOU'RE THE ONE CLUTCHING YOUR PEARLS?#VPDebate
— Gabe Ortíz (@TUSK81) October 5, 2016
@mollyesque I never liked Pence in "Mad Men."
— Robert Wickens (@RobertWickens1) October 5, 2016
Pretty accurate summary of the #VPDebate: pic.twitter.com/BvBtbiuX5f
— Philip Lewis (@Phil_Lewis_) October 5, 2016
Kaine interrupted too much and Pence basically denied that Trump ever said everything he has ever said. #debate
— Geoffrey Skelley (@geoffreyvs) October 5, 2016
Seems to me like Kaine did the veep’s job — making his chief look good & their guy look bad — while Mike Pence lied non-stop, but sonorously. So both sides will probably score it as a win?
PsiFighter37
Andrew Sullivan
NY Magazine should boot him off the payroll stat. Fuck him.
Some Guy
Lying liars and the US Senators who rebut them.
Baud
I agree with this tweet storm. A first.
(That was fast, AL).
hellslittlestangel
All Pence had to do was prove he’s not the obtuse dumbfuck everyone says he is. Better luck next time, Mikey.
gf120581
Yep. Kaine did the attack dog thing well and Pence was basically auditioning for 2020.
In short, like pretty much every VP debate, all sound and fury, but pretty much zilch on impact in November.
Bill E Pilgrim
I think that was the goal Pence set out for the evening. To prove, using logic, that Donald Trump doesn’t exist.
Baud
@PsiFighter37: He is a deeply disturbed individual.
Trentrunner
Shitty moderation.
Pence “won,” but it won’t matter.
Kay
Hopefully they can make Trump crazy with this :)
It’s true, too. That was the Mike Pence show and it’s supposed to be the “Hillary Clinton sucks and Donald Trump is great” show.
gf120581
@PsiFighter37: Sheesh, Sullivan is such a panic troll sometimes. Reading that you’d think Trump was cruising to victory instead of a flaming dumpster fire. (Still remember his behavior post the first debate in 2012; I was afraid they’d have to talk him down off the ledge.)
MomSense
@PsiFighter37:
I found his lying so coolly about things that are on fucking video to be terrifying.
SiubhanDuinne, liberal mob enforcer bitch
Last time I’m gonna say this, but I have to say it one more time: That moderator, so-called, was fuckin pathetic.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Kay: Paul Begala said on CNN that Pence threw Trump under the bus. Trump somehow always seems to know what people say on that loser network no one watches.
gf120581
@Kay: That’s because it was the “Pence 2020” show.
Kay
@PsiFighter37:
I love how Andrew Sullivan completely ignores that Pence is an unpopular failure at his current job- governor of Indiana.
WaterGirl
@MomSense: Pence has no soul.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@gf120581: also Sullivan hates Hillary Clinton
dmsilev
@PsiFighter37: Sullivan desperately wants a GOP that he can support.
Knight of Nothing
@Kay: I don’t think Trump thinks this deeply. “He’s on my team, he won” is as far as it goes for him.
Kaine did well enough, which is a win for Dems.
gf120581
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Yeah, there’s that too. But Sullivan is one of those who is absolutely petrified of Trump, so he’s kinda fucked either way.
Kay
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Look at it like this- in order to win this, Pence had to pretend Trump doesn’t exist.
He will not be DENIED :)
Matt McIrvin
@dmsilev: It kind of reminds me of Harry Enten at 538, in all the little discussion forum articles they have there: he always wants so badly to be evenhandedly non-partisan, but the Republicans keep disappointing him by being so pathetic.
chopper
this is astounding. was pence born an alter kocker?
dr. bloor
Because he’s so strong on LGBTQ human rights?
Like, dislike, agree, disagree…at the end of the day, Andrew Sullivan is one fucking weird dude.
Kay
@Knight of Nothing:
Oh, I do. I think Donald Trump thinks about Donald Trump all day, everyday. He’s paranoid and vindictive when he’s threatened too.
Bill E Pilgrim
Yeah from what I’m seeing here and elsewhere I’m thinking that Pence as a “Trump denier” is actually going to be the meme that has legs. Or whatever memes have. Memosomes. Wings. Whatever.
Old Dan and Little Anne
TDS show just showed Pence saying “broad shouldered leadership” repeatedly in a minute long clip. Hysterical and disturbing.
amk
Are you sure? Seems like our side is saying onoez, this is obama-mittbot 1 all over again.
Gotta give the thugs one thing. They fucking never give up.
Villago Delenda Est
Sullivan is a Tory shit who would have been tarred and feathered and sent out of town on his way to Ontario on a rail if this were 1783.
amk
@gf120581:
so stealing that.
Exurban Mom
In our social-media driven world, it will be more important what the Clinton campaign can extract and repurpose from this debate, rather than the performance in the moment. And on that score, Kaine hit it out of the park.
Baud
@Old Dan and Little Anne: I was thinking that would be a meme. Strength and leadership were his answers to every question.
divF
It sounds like Pence beat St. Peter by a long shot.
Peale
@Old Dan and Little Anne: yep. But it’s the belly of their candidate that’s broad so I don’t know who they’re talking about
senator tankerbell
Please forgive me if someone else has said something similar (and they probably have), but what scares me is that people who lean Republican but are skittish about the Donald will decide that “well, Trump’s going to leave the day-to-day governing to Pence, anyway” and thus feel comfortable voting for him. We know that Pence lied and obstructed and ignored his way through the debate, but we also know that basically, you could turn the sound down on any debate and just watch the visuals, and that will give you just as much information about who “won.”
It terrifies me that the media will internalize the notion that Pence is basically setting himself up for 2020 and basically decide that while Trump is good for ratings, Hillary is now running against Pence. I don’t know if this is going to have as small an effect as most of us thought coming in. I know I’m being a bedwetter, and I’m really sorry for that.
And the Mets have to face Bumgarner tomorrow night. Ugh.
Baud
@Exurban Mom: I agree.
amk
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: That’s what the dems need to be doing 24×7, which also happens to be true. Get under the donnie dick’s skin and mess up his 3 am tweeting.
Major Major Major Major
Drudge is sort-of headlining how Kaine said he would be Hillary’s “right hand person.” You know. Instead of man.
So, they got nothing.
burnspbesq
Looks like sticking to the AL wild card game was the right call. Will watch the debate later.
O’s and Blue Jays going to the 11th, tied 2-2.
donnah
It seemed at first that Kaine was overcompensating and Pence stayed even and level, which was his strength. But during the discussion, I think Kaine made better, clearer points. Release the Taxes was overdone on Kaine’s part, while Pence overdid the Hillary’s running a hateful campaign refrain.
The moderator was a complete fail, and I wanted to tell both candidates to just take a breath and answer the questions, which Pence hardly ever did. His statements about Clinton’s charity were blatant lies, whoppers.
Overall, the pundits will give it to Pence because he didn’t make a complete fool of himself, like Trump did. For me, it was a rehash of the same talking points and rhetoric. I’ll be glad when this is old news.
senator tankerbell
@Exurban Mom: FSM help me, I hope you’re right.
/changes pants
Matt McIrvin
@amk:
Except that it’s a vice-presidential debate in a cycle where the VP candidates are so not the story.
Elizabelle
@Kay: Yeah. Pence launched himself at the Trump ticket because he was facing an avalanche of no votes, had he been forced to run for governor again.
Did we figure out how many times “avalanche” came up?
Interesting word from a governor of a state with no mountains, to my knowledge. Does it have any big hills, even?
burnspbesq
@senator tankerbell:
And the Giants have to face Thor. And if it turns into a bullpen contest, the Mets have a yooge advantage.
Anne Laurie
@PsiFighter37: As I said in the last post, Mike Pence is the Strong Repub Daddy Andrew Sullivan’s always dreamed about.
And by dreamed, I mean fantasized while masturbating.
Baud
@senator tankerbell: Kaine did much better than Obama in his first debate against Romney, and this debate is insignificant. We would have liked to see another beat down, but those are rare.
Monkeyfister
This right here, too: https://twitter.com/Athenae/status/783501414194552832
Major Major Major Major
@senator tankerbell: relax, nobody cares about VP’s. Every time is gonna be the one where it’s different!… until it isn’t.
? Martin
@Exurban Mom: Right. Clinton won the night, but the damage really came over the next few days. We’re now getting discussion of whether Pence is calling for war with Russia – that’s not him winning the debate.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Elizabelle: it has some Haute Terre.
Lizzy L
If the emessem spends a lot of time talking about Pence’s inability to defend Trump — or his deliberate choice not to, because 2020 — it will drive Trump crazy, because he will feel that he has to defend himself, and the craziness will surface somewhere; at one of his rallies, maybe. He won’t attack Pence, but he might go after the media. And his attacks on Clinton will get even wilder and more insulting.
Major Major Major Major
@Anne Laurie: yes, this also too. Remember that Andy hates women.
Knight of Nothing
@Kay: no disagreement there :-)
Baud
@? Martin: Right. Remember when their strategy was to portray Hillary as more hawkish. That’s over.
Original Lee
Based on my FB feed, the wingnuts thought Pence won, that Kaine was a smug, smarmy asshat, and that the moderator was pathetic. The liberals thought Kaine won, that Pence was the beta version of the Halloween Mittbot, and that the moderator was pathetic. Everybody hated that the candidates were talking over each other and interrupting each other so much that very little could be understood.
I did not watch out of consideration for my blood pressure. I have an appointment with my cardiologist tomorrow and don’t want him increasing my meds over this.
Felonius Monk
@gf120581:
True dat. Ain’t it delish.
RaflW
CBS News just declared CBSN moderator Elaine Quijano the early winner.
Your objective media for all to behold.
Fuck. Me. Running.
Anne Laurie
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Even Hillary’s strongest defenders will (gladly) admit — she’s no Margaret Thatcher!
Thatcher is the only woman I know of that Sullivan actually admires. But then, she was a Big Mean Conservative Daddy, which is Sullivan’s idea of perfection in politics.
James E Powell
@burnspbesq:
With you all the way. Love playoff baseball. One game, now one inning. And what makes it pure enjoyment is that I don’t care who wins.
I see no reason for me to watch the debate. I can accept the consensus of this assemblage and move on into the weekend.
My question is this: There were quite a few Trump stores cooking, does this debate make them go away?
Adam L Silverman
@PsiFighter37: Can we do a retroactive extreme vetting and return him?
Mnemosyne
@chopper:
Honestly, I thought that Kaine was coming across as too brash and beating up on an old man. But to find out that Kaine is actually older than Pence?
Wow. Seriously, every time I see Tim Kaine, there’s something that makes me like him even more. That’s the one for tonight.
El Caganer
@Baud: Pretty soon they’ll dump that “Strength And Leadership” bit and go right to “Strength Through Joy.”
Suzanne
@MomSense: YES. He just lied, lied, lied. I wish these moderators would prepare with video clips or tweets or whatever and fact-check right then. The truth is worth protecting.
Baud
@James E Powell: Pence promised tax returns and talked about Trump’s charities, so stories have new legs.
senator tankerbell
@Major Major Major Major: Yeah, you’re probably right. And @burnspbesq: This is also true. But Bumgarner is a vampire. Gotta hope thunderbolts are as effective as wooden crosses. And ultimately that 2015 and 2016 are basically a replay of 1985 and 1986. I live in NYC, so I’ve got my pick of bars from which to watch the game and either drink in celebration or drown my sorrows tomorrow night. Good thing I don’t have to work Thursday. Oh, wait.
Mnemosyne
@Exurban Mom:
I think you’re right. This is going to be a campaign commercial bonanza.
Anne Laurie
@chopper:
All true conservatives go from age 12 to age 50 overnight. Maybe clenching their sphincters tightly, so as to be full of shit at all times, is prematurely aging.
(Sometimes the shift doesn’t happen til they’re chronologically in their mid-20s, but it’s pretty stark. One week, prepubescent; next week, over the hill.)
Adam L Silverman
@chopper: He has been an old man since he was a toddler.
Old Dan and Little Anne
@Baud: TDS is live tonight. I am impressed they showed clips from tonight’s debate and had immediate jokes.
Full Metal Wingnut
The VP debate is usually very inside baseball. Most people don’t really give a fuck. There are maybe eight voters in the entire country who were swayed by this.
This wasn’t about Kaine. This was about Pence. A clean cut, (relatively) sane looking man who can stay on a single topic for more than 30 seconds and is capable of speaking at a normal level instead of shouting. The guy who might make Trump-leaners think “hey, there’s a normal adult on the ticket.”
Kaine’s one job was to make sure that no one forgets that Pence answers to Pumpkinhead J. Trump. That’s it. So when some dumbass white republican watching in Ohio thinks “hey this isn’t so bad, Pence seems all right” they think “oh yeah…Trump..”
The media will try to make hay out of Kaine being “rude” and interrupting but I promise you it will not make one goddamn bit of difference to this election. And if the Trump leaners were focused on Kaine’s “rudeness” instead of thinking about Trump, they’re a lost cause anyway.
Baud
@Old Dan and Little Anne: Cool. Haven’t watched that show in forever.
Percysowner
@dmsilev: I’m not sure why Sully thinks a complete homophobe, is someone he can support. I mean Pence will work to destroy every right the LGBTQ community has gained. Oh well, he probably figures he has enough money to leave the country if things get bad.
piratedan
Pence was exactly what the GOP needed… white haired white dude who spoke in moderate tones. Didn’t really matter what he said as long as he kept his reasonable tone and tut-tutted appropriately. Mission accomplished.
Kaine simply was there to remind America that they guy at the top of that ticket was a fucking lunatic…. mission accomplished.
The Media will masturbate themselves into a heavy lidded nirvana because they can keep flogging that dead horse.
Our Erstwhile moderator, didn’t do herself any favors but at least she wasn’t Matt fucking Lauer.
Also too, I am fucking tired of every fucking debate being framed to suit GOP talking points…. This administration (and the American taxpayer) pulled the world’s financial nads out of the fire and these fucksticks get to shit all over this modest recovery as if their austerity program was the reason for it. No one talks about continuing the success, it’s all about you can’t be safe on your own streets due to immigrants and race wars and terrorists are coming to fuck your wife and steal your cows in the name of Sharia Law. We all stand a better chance of being gunned down by a RW gun nut than we do of dying in a terrorist attack..
RaflW
One thing I’m grumpy about: The GOP is very vulnerable on LGBT issues. Pence is much easier to attack on this than Trump. Pence’s shitty record is clear, and the easy way to have nailed him was to say that Pence caused economic harm to Indiana with his terrible ant0gay law. Businesses were fleeing the scene.
Not sure why Kaine didn’t go there. It still isn’t the natural space for older Dems to go towards LGBT rights I think. And he seemed more flustered that Pence. But that is because a liar bent on lying just has one job to do.
muddy
@Baud: I like it better now. Jon Stewart was too damn civil.
Mike J
@amk:
Our side has too many p-u five five y’s.
amk
CNN Focus Group Overwhelmingly Picks Tim Kaine As The “Clear Winner” Of Vice Presidential Debate .
while their pundtwits lie right in real time. the disconnect couldn’t get any harsher.
NotMax
Pence debate coaches: “If you get stuck, just remember these three little words – ‘war on coal.'”
Lyrebird
@MomSense: Thanks for watching – couldn’t stomach it, and besides, kid’s bedtime is a no-screen zone.
The lying. The cruelty even to patently-wrongly-imprisoned people. Ugh. I hope Pence and McCrory (sp? NC Hate Bill 2 dude) get well-deserved drubbings in the polls!
I’m not too worried that Kaine couldn’t “win” in the optics game, because I think Clinton’s got the better ground game… telling myself it will help us stay fired up to phone bank, donate, give rides to the polls, etc…
Emma
Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, it’s a wonder we Democrats can win anything, what with the armchair quarterbacking and the panic attacks.
Point the first: this isn’t going to change anyone’s mind. The few that are undecided will not fall in love with Pence and choose to vote for vp.
Point the second: Better an attack dog than a wimp.
Point the third: Ignore the media. They are who they are. Honesty, decency, and competence are not their forte. This is a ground game, and Hillary’s much, much, much better at it than Donald.
Elizabelle
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: to go with its French Lick.
Bill E Pilgrim
@Bill E Pilgrim:
@Bill E Pilgrim:
Yep
Lit3Bolt
@dmsilev:
Sullivan desperately wants a
GOPNazi Daddy Figure that he can support.Adam L Silverman
@senator tankerbell: This is going to be done, in terms of media play, by tomorrow. Hurricane Matthew, especially as the projected track moves west towards FL and then the Southeastern Atlantic coast, begins to dominate coverage. That will take everything through to the weekend when we’ll then get a split on coverage between Matthew, depending on what its doing, and the build up to the town hall on Sunday night.
Elizabelle
@amk: CNN focus group thought Tim won? For reals?
All right! I mean, he did, but glad they concurred.
I’m already on local news (Hurricane Matthew to hit coastal areas; soggy weekend ahead; police dog that was shot twice is recovering nicely.)
RaflW
@piratedan: That Social Security question was framed like a conservative’s wet dream. The trust fund will be broke! Panic!
Minor actuarial tweaks in the tax law, esp if we can combine that with job-based economic recovery rather than a Wall Street profit-skim recovery, will get us well into the future.
Just a terrible question, and indicative of the innumeracy of so many media folks.
Lyrebird
@Mike J: Actually I think the anatomical-reference-small-kitty-cat-possessing voters are a gonna help keep Trump away from the Oval Office!
(I know it’s not what you meant. Trying to make a funny. And yep I defend small-richards as well. Body parts don’t deserve the bad reputations they get.)
Villago Delenda Est
@RaflW: Elaine may be a very intelligent, pleasant person, but she lost control of the debate and it showed, badly, as both candidates refused to pay attention to her questions.
amk
@Emma: This. If Kaine didn’t push back, the meme would be how could Kaine let that punk run all over him. The dems’ political instincts suck.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Josh Marshall flagged that the moderator used data from a Pete Peterson organization to frame that question, a group that boasts both Simpson and Bowles on its board.
burnspbesq
Dang. At least two more games in the shithole that is the Rogers Center instead of the best park in the AL, Camden Yards.
Adam L Silverman
@Major Major Major Major: Except for Thatcher.
Baud
@Villago Delenda Est: Agree.
@RaflW: Right. I like that Kaine said it would never be privatized.
JGabriel
@senator tankerbell:
There are two more Presidential debates before the election. Most Americans – with our famously short memories – aren’t even going to remember Pence’s name by the time Election Day rolls around.
______________
Edited to Add:
What Emma said.
Baud
@JGabriel: Who?
Mary G
CNN snap poll Pence won but not a blowout so no big deal.
hovercraft
CNN poll Pence 48 Kaine 42
Warren Terra
I’m surprised Sullivan would cheerlead for Pence. I mean, I’m not surprised that he wants a resurgent GOP, both for its own sake and because he hates Clinton, but … Pence? Sure, he’s probably in sync with Pence on his anti-abortion extremism, and Pence’s misogyny won’t bother him a bit … but Pence is also viciously anti-LGBTQ, and in particular has horrible things to say about people with HIV. You’d think Sullivan’s narcissism would mitigate against him accepting Pence, if nothing else …
magurakurin
@shomi: I don’t know. I don’t see anyone saying that. My own tweeter feed is pretty much, “Tim Kaine was sent into attack Trump and he did the job well.” I don’t hear anyone at all talking like this is a bad thing. And the Clinton camp seems pleased with his job. You just make these things out of whole cloth and attack them. Not sure why. You’re a weird dude. But, heh, being weird isn’t a crime. Have at it, if it wiggles your waggle.
sukabi
@PsiFighter37: wonder how Sully wil like his conversion therapy under (not) pres. Pence…
James E Powell
@RaflW:
I didn’t see it, but I’ve read the coverage, so to speak. I’m inferring that Kaine understands that Pence isn’t running for anything, what he did or didn’t do in Indiana doesn’t matter right now, and hitting Trump is how Kaine sets up Hillary for Sunday night. If she dominates Trump again, it’s over.
PsiFighter37
@amk: butbutbut they’re all Virginia voters! /wingnuts
lahke
I wish Kaine has spent more time rebutting arguments that Pence made that only sounded reasonable if you don’t know anything. That whole schtick about Pence being a better governor, for example. Kaine was governor through 2010–in other words, he tried to get his state through the Great Recession, but Virginia’s one-term limit meant that when he left, it was still bad times nationally. Pence started in 2013 after the recovery was under way, and is claiming credit for the effect of the national recovery. Not telling that story left Pence’s lie unchallenged.
hovercraft
According to John King Trump is not pleased, he’s listening to the post game, and he doesn’t like the fact that they keep saying that Pence won for Pence, and that he didn’t defend Trump, and that Pence and Hillary are better debaters than Donald Trump.
amk
@PsiFighter37: also. too. luntz’s group was ‘undecided ohioans’. so, both sides.
Felonius Monk
The takeaway meme should be Pence could not defend Trump because even he knows that Trump is truly indefensible.
Mary G
I think the more people say that Pence didn’t defend Trump the worse Trump’s going to react.
amk
@hovercraft: mission accomplished.
Baud
@Mary G:
@hovercraft:
Seems fair, given how these things are judged. As mentioned above, I think we take the lead in the post debate social media analysis. But we’ll see.
Best part is that this puts pressure on Trump to perform at the next debate.
Old Dan and Little Anne
Kaine did fine by me. Fuck pence and MSNBC wanking on style and proclaiming him the winner 2 minutes after it was over. And while I’m at it, fuck the blue jays, too. I hope they lose in the most devastating way possible next round.
Lizzy L
@senator tankerbell: I feel ya. Some of us are having a very hard time this year. I’m an ex-New Yorker, therefore a Mets fan, I lived in Chicago for 5 years and fell in love with the Cubs, and have spent nearly 50 years in the Bay Area, including 10 years in San Francisco, so Go Giants! Except damn it, the Giants have won the Big Trophy — hell, Madison Bumgarner practically carried it off by himself that year — and the Cubbies, damn it, haven’t. So, this year I really really am hoping for a Cubs win.
If the Series goes seven games, the last game will be played on November 4th.
Gin & Tonic
@burnspbesq: You mean Centre.
sukabi
@SiubhanDuinne, liberal mob enforcer bitch: agree, she sucked.
Baud
@lahke: The election is not about Kaine vs Pence.
Omnes Omnibus
Warning: Sports analogy. Many years ago, I ran track. This debate is like the second leg of a relay. It is usually assigned to the slowest of the four runners on the team. The second guy’s job is to just hold place and keep the really fast people 3 and 4 in a position to win (I know I was #2 in so many 4 x 400s until my coach and I figured out that I was an 800 person). Kaine did his job.
Shomi!
Buh, buh, buh, Al Gore!
? Martin
I agree with O’Donnell that there’s nothing from this debate that you can cut a pro-Trump ad from except maybe Pence’s answer on abortion, but a lot you can cut a pro-Clinton ad from – mostly Pence denying things he’s on tape saying, or denying Trump saying things Trump said.
Mike J
@Lyrebird: The 19th and 15th amendment people are going to save the United States.
muddy
The NYT has a fact checker up. It’s a joke.
Adam L Silverman
@hovercraft: This is the key. Kaine’s job was to force Pence to defend the indefensible. He couldn’t and didn’t even try. And the coverage shows that on every network I’ve seen/seen referenced. The strategy here was to leverage this tactic to get under Trump’s skin and set the conditions for Trump to loose his shit on twitter over this for the next several hours or so. Kaine got himself on the objective, so the tactical job is done. Now we have to wait and see whether the strategy was successful.
NoraLenderbee
@Baud:
Ooh. I like that. Say it again.
sukabi
@Gin & Tonic: @Knight of Nothing: disagree… for trump it’s ALL about trump, and Pence didn’t bring the love.
CZanne
I think I have my analogy now: Donald Trump = King Joffrey: the ranting, screaming, petulant child who gleefully tortures anything that walks, crawls or flies, has no shame about it, can’t bear getting hit by a girl and has the emotional regulation of a toddler in need of a nap. Mike Pence = Roose Bolton: the soft-spoken, stately-looking teetotaler who will burn your house, flay your kid and whose idea of dinner and a show is a massacre where he delivers the killing blow to his boss.
Baud
@Adam L Silverman: That comment needs more maps.
Mnemosyne
I just can’t decide on a t-shirt purchase. Stronger Together or Pantsuit Palette? Or both?
Adam L Silverman
@Baud: Here you go:
https://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I know during the primary, Trump said he was against privatization or cuts to Social Security, but somebody dug up one of his books where he said it has to be privatized. I would love for that to become an issue for the next month
Omnes Omnibus
@Shomi!: Fuck you. Read the fucking blog and the comments if you are going to bitch about them. It is fucking obvious that you don’t and that you have weird personal shit with some of the front pagers. Get help.
cokane
@PsiFighter37: rofl Sullivan wants to wait for Christianist Pence?
hovercraft
@Adam L Silverman:
Good point.
Another Scott
@lahke: There wasn’t enough time for Kaine to rebut all of Pence’s lies and distortions. It wouldn’t have helped Hillary for him to do so, either. He had to keep the focus on Trump and how Hillary was much, much better. That’s what he did, and he did it well.
Cheers,
Scott.
Baud
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Did Pence answer the how to save Social security question?
SiubhanDuinne, liberal mob enforcer bitch
Arguably, one of worst and stupidest things MSNBC has done in its entire history is to reinstate Brian Williams. He is glib enough, but has about as much substance as cotton candy floss.
West of the Rockies (been a while)
I thought Kaine did very well on the faith/public office question while Pence confirmed a lot of fears.
Kaine hit hard on taxes and the Putin love-fest. I wish he’d interrupted less, but overall he did no damage. Pence may have seemed more calm, but his facial expressions were smug and not crazy photogenic. I don’t think we’ll be discussing this debate in 48 hours.
cmorenc
@dr. bloor:
Sullivan exists in enough of a rarified-crust social strata that homophobic discrimination isn’t a significant enough personal problem for him to force any break with his conservative ideological inclinations and his leanings toward the US political party that identifies as conservative. He wishes that substantial factions in that party weren’t so hostile to LBGT rights, and hopes that if they ever won the presidency (e.g. Pence 2020) they would somehow magically become much more moderate, kind, and understanding toward gays.
hovercraft
@SiubhanDuinne, liberal mob enforcer bitch:
But he looks the part right? Remember it’s all about optics.
Elizabelle
Stephen Colbert: USA Today believes that if Trump wins, there will be no USA Tomorrow.
[And he mentioned all the traditionally Republican papers that have endorsed Hillary. And that not one of the top 50 newspapers in the US has endorsed Trump.]
Mike J
Christopher Hayes Verified account @chrislhayes
A brief dip into Nazi-frog twitter shows them furious at Pence for the Russia stuff.
Matt McIrvin
@hovercraft: Ha ha, I hoped that would happen! Pence could have “won” without accomplishing anything but to get his own presidential candidate’s goat.
? Martin
So apparently there is a report out now that Trump is pissed that Pence did better than Trump did. Astounding. Trump’s ego needed Pence to implode, and now Trump is going to run into Sunday needing to prove himself. If this report is true, I would expect Clinton to jab Trump about this and then twist the knife by praising something that Pence said which Trump opposes.
Emma
@srv: Now that I’ve had my belly laugh, I can go to sleep happy.
RaflW
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: That Pete Peterson buttwipe ‘think tank’ was pushing promoted tweets at me for weeks. Had to block them, they are awful.
Baud
@Elizabelle: I do wish Kaine had pointed out the endorsement disparity.
@Mike J: hahaha
Lizzy L
From Josh Marshall’s post at TPM, his final paragraph:
Baud
@? Martin: As predicted.
SiubhanDuinne, liberal mob enforcer bitch
@Mnemosyne:
I like them both for different reasons. For a whimsical souvenir I’d get Pantsuits Palette. But for a shirt to wear whilst volunteering this fall, I’d go with the other one. I might order it myself –something with Hillary’s name might get me shot around here, but I think I’d be okay with Stronger Together.
amk
mikey not
defendingwilling into buzzsaw on behalf of donnie will not only enrage the carnival barker but also his loony base. A twofer.gbbalto
@Omnes Omnibus: I think you got whoever is trolling the real shomi.
ETA To the extent that shomi is real
Baud
Now is the time to tell Donald that he doesn’t have the authority to fire Trump.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Baud: not really
IOW from Pence: Don’t worry olds, we’ll only screw people younger than you. It would be great if this is part of a longer strategy to put privatization front and center.
ETA: Mike Murphy and Steve Schmidt saying Kaine damaged Trump
gf120581
@? Martin: You know that Trump can’t stand the thought of anyone being better at anything than him, but especially not his own running mate. And the fact that the pundits are almost universally saying this was all about Pence’s chances in 2020 and not about Trump is especially going to get Donnie’s goat.
Elizabelle
@Baud:
Colbert had a segment where Trump was endorsed by a shopper’s weekly in Gangrene, Wisconsin.
“There’s just something about a Trump presidency that makes people want to stock up on canned goods.”
Baud
@Baud: fire *Pence*
hovercraft
@Lizzy L:
Tweety, Schmidt and Mike Murphy seem to think it was the first event in his 2020 campaign. Hugh Hewwitt thinks this was great for Trump, but then he’s turned into tis years everything is good news for John McCain.
Baud
@Elizabelle: Hahahaha.
amk
@? Martin: mike, YOU ARE FIRED.
RaflW
@PsiFighter37:
So Pence, incredibly anti-gay Christianist winger, is a hope that Sullivan clings to? Maybe we can have a frequent flier miles donation drive and send him a Make-a-Wish one way airline ticket to some other country for him to wank on about conservative principles in.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
MSNBC has Steve Schmidt, Mike Murphy and Steve Schmidt, ‘balanced’ by the (too) kindly Doc Maddow and the genteel Gene Robinson.
Mnemosyne
@SiubhanDuinne, liberal mob enforcer bitch:
I keep all of my snarkiness about Trump and the Republicans over here, and I make all of my Facebook stuff very Pollyanna-ish about Clinton. Lots of #StrongerTogether and #LoveTrumpsHate hashtags.
Okay, I admit that I use #LoveTrumpsHate partly in the hope of annoying my cousin who thinks she’s a Super Christian while spewing hatred about Hillary. But I keep it deadpan.
Elizabelle
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Yeah, that one came through loud and clear.
Omnes Omnibus
@gbbalto: I know someone is trolling srv, but I was unaware that someone was trolling shomi.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I kinda figured this was happening, but I can’t believe they’re saying it to the press already. The Blob must be pissed
ETA: on Favreau @ jonfavs 21m21 minutes ago
Was that source named John Barron?
Matt McIrvin
@RaflW: I read that more charitably as Sullivan having his usual panic, and clinging to this “hope” as an alternative to believing in an impending Trump landslide.
gbbalto
@Omnes Omnibus: The more the better
Barbara
@cmorenc: Sullivan also does not understand the connection between feminism and acceptance of LGBTQ persons. He seems to think that there is a magical place where rights for gay people will be guaranteed regardless of how a society treats women’s autonomy. The common link to the decline of rigid sex roles eludes him.
Omnes Omnibus
@Matt McIrvin: Why would you give Andrew Sullivan the benefit of a doubt?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
they are very creepy people
Villago Delenda Est
@RaflW: Petersen and his think tank are the sort of people who inspire assaults on the Bastille.
Villago Delenda Est
@Barbara: A great many things elude Andrew Sullivan.
Anne Laurie
@Percysowner:
Sullivan is the ultimate Spite Voter. Sure, he thinks, if Trump wins I’ll have to flee the country, but at least he’ll put THOSE PEOPLE in their place!
Women back to the kitchen, people of color back to the fields / maintenance crews, desperate people forced to debase themselves to religious ‘charities’ if they can’t afford to feed their kids. And it’s not as though Sullivan expects the “serious” people — his social peers — to start persecuting queers or burning down mosques and temples; he figures it’ll just be a circus for the rubes, like Survivor or some other reality show, only with wider circulation. Great for cocktail-party viewing & chatting, too!
SiubhanDuinne, liberal mob enforcer bitch
@hovercraft:
I guess so. I heard him on XM on the way home. (I do know what he looks like, but my comment was based only on his anodyne commentary.)
seaboogie
@gf120581:
I didn’t see the debate because I was working, but comments across the board seem pretty consistent. So I’m amusing myself trolling Trump re: Pence. Trump is going to go into the next debate a hot mess, I believe – and I am willing to heat up his mess in any way that I can.
I’ll bet that Hillary’s debate prep is pretty interesting and far-ranging. So many more ways to get under the thin orange skin in the last week…..
The Lodger
@RaflW: They have no shame. That is all.
Srv
I can cut and paste, and I like to eat paste.
SiubhanDuinne, liberal mob enforcer bitch
@? Martin:
WRONG!
WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!!!
amk
sully couldn’t even hack it in the two-bit pundtwit world and we are discussing him why?
Irony Abounds
@Percysowner: @Omnes Omnibus: I actually do think the point he was making is that he hopes conservatives who otherwise would vote for Trump out of hate of Clinton will be willing to not vote for Trump with the thought Pence would be around in 2020. I honestly don’t think a gay man could support a homophobe like Pence.
Omnes Omnibus
@Anne Laurie: Yeah, Sully thinks he has a solid landing ground in Farage’s London. His problem is that London will never be Farage’s territory.
GregB
It appears both Donald Trump and Mike Pence have prolapsed souls.
mkro
Did you really include a tweet from Jon Lovett?? For real?? WHY!?!
amk
Mary G
An analyst for CNN Latino just came on and said Hispanic Twitter is all lit up with outrage at Pence’s “There you go with that Mexican thing again.”
Mission Accomplished, Tim Kaine. None of this other crap matters.
Ivan X
I just discovered that if I look in the “offers” section of my American Express Everyday card, I can get $50 any single expenditure at Washington Post; in other words, $49 for a year of the digital subscription, instead of $99. Not sure I want to make that kind of commitment, but Fahrenthold’s work almost justifies it. Weirdly, the offer was only available on that one card, and not any of my other Amex cards. I don’t know how they do their offers, but if it’s attached to the kind of card, the Everyday is no-fee, so potentially a way to get WP for cheap for a year.
amk
amk
seaboogie
BTW, on my way home from a work gig in Yolo County, CA, I saw a sign that read “Cleek for Congress”. Pretty sure that this is not our Cleek.
Mike J
@mkro: I liked The Newsroom, at least the first season.
amk
@mkro: no, this is the other one.
mkro
@PsiFighter37: Well, I guess when you live in an all-male household like Sully, you don’t worry about women’s rights. So the Republican shitting all over women by forcing births is meaningless to Sully.
hovercraft
@mkro:
I think that’s the former Obama speech writer not the actor.
West of the Rockies (been a while)
@srv:
Yup. Keep telling yourself that.
Omnes Omnibus
@Irony Abounds: I don’t read it that way. I also have little sympathy and trust for the guy. If he says something, he gets no benefit of the doubt from me. YMMV.
hovercraft
@Mary G:
This debate performance is getting better and better.
I love it.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Hugh Hewitt thinks overturning Roe is a winning issue for Republicans. THat’s why no GOP nominee has talked about it since Reagan.
Mary G
Sully did have an amazing thread on the Dish printing testimonies from men (as fathers) and women who had had late term abortions for all the harrowing reasons they are actually necessary. He grudgingly admitted to a mite more understanding of the issue afterwards.
hovercraft
@amk:
Is that what Nostradamus is calling himself these days?
Mnemosyne
@Mary G:
Yeah, it’s feeling like Kaine is the guy they find at the bottom of the pile on the football field with his hands just barely over the line of scrimmage. He may be bruised and battered but, damn it, he still moved the team forward.
Jibeaux
So who has the tech skills to take that original TP logo, with the T penetrating the P, and flip the roles, hmmmm?
Omnes Omnibus
@Mary G: Does that that cancel out everything else?
The Lodger
@Baud: Actually, he does have the ability to fire Trump.
hueyplong
Trump will be doubly mad at Pence. First, Pence looked more presidential than Trump (I know, low bar). Second, and even worse, Pence didn’t go all out to defend Trump. And the Clinton people will be highlighting that fact between now and the next debate.
Trump is going to be pretty worked up. Kind of looking forward to watching it.
The Lodger
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Because you can never have enough Steve Schmidt. He’s the cowbell of punditry.
TS
So a question on religion. Wonder why we will never see that in a Trump/Clinton debate?
amk
same old crap.
Mary G
@Omnes Omnibus: Oh, definitely not. He is a major league misogynist and always will be.
Omnes Omnibus
@Mary G: @Omnes Omnibus: I will assume that your lack of comment is a yes.
Mnemosyne
@seaboogie:
After this week’s SNL, I’m more convinced than ever that Hillary’s campaign took my advice and secretly had Alec Baldwin play Trump in the debate prep.
(Okay, not really, but it would have been awesome if they had.)
Omnes Omnibus
@Mary G: Explain please?
Mary G
@Omnes Omnibus: I admired his willingness to publish points of view different from his own, like the “dissent of the day.”
Suzanne
@mkro: Rich white gay men like Sully still have plenty of race, class, and sex privilege. I know more than a few gay men who don’t give a rat’s ass about women’s rights and are anti-feminism. I don’t think he’s self-hating or conflicted as much as he is just an asshole.
Peale
@hovercraft: well. I guess it’s good news that they’re already discussing the 2020 horserace. Like we can never get too much of that.
Just One More Canuck
@burnspbesq: I was at the game – it was amazing
AnotherBruce
@shomi: Um, that was a great post until the last sentence. I think you should go back and re-read that one and correct it. Or not.
Jilli Brown
@Trentrunner: I thought the format was horrible. I kinda felt like I was watching uncle buck. Rapid fire questions with no congruence (is that the right word?) It was choppy and disjointed.
Neither performance will change the trajectory of the race.
Just my 2 cents.
Just One More Canuck
@burnspbesq: agree with you about the rogers centre – probably the most soulless stadium I’ve ever been in, and I went to games in the Kingdome
redshirt
There is no spoon
redshirt
Cubs v. Red Sox would be the best WS ever, right?
Ryan
OT: any news on Snack Team Six? I rely on you Adam!
RaflW
@amk: Because pointing and laughing is good, clean childish fun!
RaflW
@Irony Abounds: Dozens (maybe many dozens?) of gay men spent money to have Newt Fucking Gingrich speak to them just this week at a Log Closet GOP event. There are self-haters who would vote for Pence.
Pisses me off biggly, but there are such deluded rubes. Some with dangerous amounts of money. (I admit I cannot imagine Cook actually voting for Pence, but Ryan ain’t exactly a best friend of teh ghey).
RaflW
This is a great headline!
Mike Pence Won The Debate For His Imaginary Running Mate, Mitt Romney
SiubhanDuinne, liberal mob enforcer bitch
@RaflW:
“Log Closet,” LOL.
RaflW
@Mary G:
Great point. Pence 2020 will be leaving the starting gate badly hobbled with Hispanic voters.
BillinGlendaleCA
@El Caganer: I think there may be a conflict with the Baud!2016 campaign slogan: “Joy though hand strength”.
hilts
@Elizabelle:
Hillary has been endorsed by 23 daily newspapers, Gary Johnson has been by 6 daily newspapers, and Trump has been endorsed by ZERO daily newspapers.
BillinGlendaleCA
@shomi: You didn’t say “Ball Juice”, you lose 2 points.
hilts
@shomi:
Chris Matthews is a smarmy, obnoxious waste of protoplasm who whined about Kaine interrupting too much when that’s all he does on his stupid Hardball show.
hilts
@redshirt:
Of the teams still standing it would be the best matchup, but I would have preferred seeing the Cubs end their drought by beating the Yankees in 7 games on a walk-off grand slam.
Juju
Does Pence have a reflection when he looks in the mirror?
Asking for a friend.
Peale
@RaflW: I don’t really worry about it. Obama got 72% of the LGBT vote in 2008′ 76% in 2012 and Hillary will get 80%. As a whole, my peeps seem to less delusional than white middle class women and white 18-30 year olds. Given that I’ve been told by my betters that I’m still supposed to be bitter about DOMA and vote against Hillary based on those feelings, I think as a whole we’re over it. Isn’t forgiveness a sign of good mental health? I’m really not into psychoanalyis of 20% of my people who aren’t there yet.
? Martin
@RaflW:
The GOP has lost Latino voters for at least a generation. They were slipping away with Romney, but Trump has shoved them out completely and I wouldn’t expect them to come back until voters parents are too young to remember this election. CA has shown how this goes.
I don’t know how the GOP wins from here on out. They’re going to have to do a lot better than Rubio to win back the demographic groups that they’ve pissed off, and I don’t think their voter suppression efforts can withstand the legal assault they’re under. They’re losing court cases left and right now.
Mai.naem.mobile
Colberts on fire tonight. Hes got Leguziamo on whos also on fire.
frosty
@burnspbesq: yeah, a real bummer that the O’s are done. But what a game! Three times they get out of a jam with an inning ending double play. And a great pitcher’s duel with every reliever they can throw onto the field.
Steve in the ATL
@Omnes Omnibus: no kidding. Are we all getting personal parody trolls? I want one!
amk
@hilts: gary uzbekibekistan got six!!!
Steve in the ATL
@Villago Delenda Est:
Le zing! Bien fait.
amk
the very professional bbc’s big take
Trump ‘fool’ and Clinton ‘weak’, say VPs.
they should just open up a bw media shop. will fit right in there right away.
? Martin
I don’t know if this will get any notice, but this line got my 15 yr old daughter to pay attention:
But we really feel like you should live fully and with enthusiasm with the commands of your faith — but it is not the role of the public servant to mandate that for everybody else.
That was within the abortion answer from Kaine, but it applies just as well to LGBT issues and a host of other things. My daughter pretty much swung from ambivalent at best about Clinton to supportive of her. We talked about it a bit and she thinks that line, if it got bigger play to young voters, would bring a lot of young people back to Clinton. In the last Pew religious survey, only about ¼ of millennials rely on religion for guidance on right/wrong issues. They have their own moral compass and a greater respect for people in other religions, so they just don’t buy the moralizing through legislation that drives the GOP on issues like gay marriage, bathroom rights, and abortion. Kaine got it exactly right – including for a lot of young religious people.
Steeplejack
@Omnes Omnibus:
Yes, Balloon Juice nyms are (regrettably) case-sensitive.
amk
amk
@? Martin:
Anne Laurie
@RaflW:
Hell, Peter ‘Infuses the Blood of the Young’ Thiel is a big Trump donor — there’s even a story that Trump promised Thiel a seat on the Supreme Court. (Thiel can’t run for President himself, because he was born in Germany.)
SenyorDave
@RaflW: Dozens (maybe many dozens?) of gay men spent money to have Newt Fucking Gingrich speak to them just this week at a Log Closet GOP event. There are self-haters who would vote for Pence.
Quislings, kapos. Terrible terms, but what else can you say about people who would vote for a prty that hates them for who they are.
Major Major Major Major
@SenyorDave: say what you will about Peter Thiel, at least his speech was pretty clear on the “can’t we all put our bigotry aside and just agree that I, Peter Thiel, should be wealthier?” point.
SenyorDave
I think the idea of Pence running for president is laughable. If he was the nominee, the debates would be a constant attack on his being too far right, and all of a sudden his positions, not his demeanor, would matter. There would be a non-stop attack on him for his efforts to privatize Social Security, and they would be very effective with lolder voters.. His extreme ant-gay views would go over like a lead balloon with young voters.
He’d be seen as a far-right conservative, which he is. He just seems sane compared to Trump.
? Martin
Clinton campaign had a web ad up within 2 hours of the debate showing Pence lying in denying Trump said the things Kaine asserted.
amk
@SenyorDave: mikey doesn’t have the charisma to run as the veep let alone the prezinent.
sukabi
@Ryan: saw something that Ryan was going to restify, to get the truth out…
rikyrah
@Mike J:
True.
Uncle Cosmo
@divF: IOW, Peter’s Pence? Or maybe not…
Fermion T. Clown
@Bill E Pilgrim: “… memosomes. wings. whatever.” +1
“… and in heaven, another memosome got its wings.” as amk said at 30, “so stealing that.” Also, too: “panic troll”.
Fermion T. Clown
as a long-time lurker, Ah gotta say, you guys are a hoot.
So stealing so many of these lines.
“So long, and thanks for all the … laughs.”