Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Hot air and ill-informed banter

A consequence of cucumbers

Battle won, war still ongoing.

Roe isn’t about choice, it’s about freedom.

Come on, media. you have one job. start doing it.

Never give a known liar the benefit of the doubt.

Putin dreamed of ending NATO, and now it’s Finnish-ed.

No Justins, No Peace

Speaking of republicans, is there a way for a political party to declare intellectual bankruptcy?

There are some who say that there are too many strawmen arguments on this blog.

“Can i answer the question? No you can not!”

The media handbook says “controversial” is the most negative description that can be used for a Republican.

They were going to turn on one another at some point. It was inevitable.

Marge, god is saying you’re stupid.

It’s not hopeless, and we’re not helpless.

I wonder if trump will be tried as an adult.

Stamping your little feets and demanding that they see how important you are? Not working anymore.

Motown is Joe-Town!

And now I have baud making fun of me. this day can’t get worse.

Not all heroes wear capes.

Washington Post’s Catch and Kill, not noticeably better than the Enquirer’s.

We won’t go back.

If marriage is the equivalent of selling yourself into slavery, women with self respect should reject the offer.

Stop using mental illness to avoid talking about armed white supremacy.

You are here: Home / Elections / Election 2016 / Wednesday Morning Open Thread: At the GOP, It’s Liars All the Way Down

Wednesday Morning Open Thread: At the GOP, It’s Liars All the Way Down

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As “everyone” keeps reminding us, VP debates usually have little to no impact on election results — even if they do provide running gags for the punditerati to repeat to each other for the next several decades. (Hey, remember that hilarious Admiral Stockdale bit back in 1992?) But this particular debate may have a positive effect for the Democrats (and the world), in that conventional wisdom is coalescing around the meme that Mike Pence didn’t work very hard to defend his overcard… and Donald Trump is not the man to let disloyalty like that just slip unnoticed…

Tim Kaine, IMO, did just fine. He stood up for HRClinton, fiercely. Just as importantly, he kept reminding people exactly what Donald Trump was like — and that Mike ‘the Sane One’ Pence was just as duplicitous, racist and greedy as Trump, no matter how smooth his delivery or how furrowed his noble brow…

If you don’t believe me, here’s a counter-example — Mark Halperin gives Pence two sucked thumbs up!

One could almost believe this here new-fangled social media gimcrackery might have its uses…

Reader Interactions

164Comments

  3. 3.

    Botsplainer

    Repeated from dying thread:

    For me, Trump’s biggest disqualifier is that he’s intellectually and temperamentally unfit for the job. He’s simply reactive, and gives zero thought to the ramifications of his words and actions, which explains why he’s been a disaster as a businessman, husband and father. There is zero deliberation that he undertakes.

    Combine that with his narcissism and sociopathy, and you have a recipe for a disastrous reign, one that would fundamentally and forever transform this country for the worse.

    Say what you will about the policies of a Ted Cruz, a Mike Pence, a John Kasich or a Marco Rubio, each has some inkling of self-awareness, and would stop to think something that was of a crisis nature through. Trump doesn’t, and is then enraged by any criticism of his fuckup.

  6. 6.

    Botsplainer

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    Dunno – seems to be some dank weed, no stems, no seeds, leads to a real level of calm and acceptance of even the least tolerable concepts…

  7. 7.

    Mustang Bobby

    I shut it off after 45 minutes; I got tired of Pence getting his tail all puffed up at Kaine quoting Trump back to him. According to the pundidiocy, he was “calm and dignified.” Yeah, he looked like he could play Ron Burgundy’s dad in the next sequel.

  11. 11.

    Mai.naem.mobile

    Theres seriously mentally ill Donald Trump and Liar Liar Pence On Fire. Do not want either near WH. One of the earliest tweets was how Trumpy was upset because Pence didn’t defend him enough. Can you imagine this moron dealing with an Iranian leader that says shit about him for their local population consumption and the SOS doesn’t bring up dear leader Trumps dissing enough?

  12. 12.

    bystander

    Pence is a liar. How could he win anything unless Hugh Hewitt gives up his title as “Best Ambulatory Cream Cheese Sculpture”?

    So is it now a national requirement that all women doing the weathercast must wear skintight bandeau dresses? I’m on Cape Cod watching Boston tv and these women are wearing the same inappropriate dresses they’re wearing in NYC. Plus the really old guy I would have thought had long been retired is on doing the morning news.

  14. 14.

    bystander

    @Baud:

    I would love to be a fly on the wall when they tell Trump to be more like Mike.

    Not if you had ever seen Trump’s tongue snap a moth out of the air from 3 feet away.

  16. 16.

    p.a.

    Moderator question you won’t hear next debate, but would pay to hear: “Mr. Trump, did Gov. Pence help coach you for this debate?”

  17. 17.

    Botsplainer

    @Mai.naem.mobile:

    Don’t disparage the mentally ill by comparing them to Trump. He’s the perfect product version 2.0 of American wealth – born to huge material and social resources and convinced of his own greatness, he is intellectually incurious, lazy as all fuck and mendacious to an incredible degree.

    He’s living the American dream….

  18. 18.

    OzarkHillbilly

    Future cod converstions?

    “Hey Baby, you’re really hot. Wanna shack up for the night?”

    “Que?”

    No, really:

    Scientists are attempting to discover if Cornish cod moving north with climate change will be able to understand the accents of their Scouse counterparts.

    Experts believe the fish, which make sounds with their swim bladders to attract mates, may have regional accents – and if males cannot “chat up” females who speak a different dialect it could threaten their ability to breed.

  19. 19.

    Botsplainer

    @bystander:

    So is it now a national requirement that all women doing the weathercast must wear skintight bandeau dresses? I’m on Cape Cod watching Boston tv and these women are wearing the same inappropriate dresses they’re wearing in NYC.

    I’m OK with this.

  21. 21.

    PsiFighter37

    Good to know that the media will declare the GOP a winner as long as they lie with any degree of calmness. Imagine if Trump could stay calm for 90 minutes…they would be giving him a huge tongue bath.

    Lucky for us, there’s no way he stays sedate for more than 15 minutes max.

  24. 24.

    amk

    Not sure I’ve ever seen the entire political media declare a winner, and then reverse themselves within 90 minutes.

    and these mofo’ing bubbleboyz constantly tell us how obama is out of touch.

  28. 28.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    @OzarkHillbilly: You could hike up there before the sun sets and get some pics before the rangers run you off. But a good flashlight would be a necessity, you don’t want to step on a rattler on the way down. They like to lay out on areas that got alot of sun exposure during the day after dark.

    ETA: They do have sanctioned group hikes up there occasionally after dark.

  32. 32.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @BillinGlendaleCA:

    you don’t want to step on a rattler on the way down.

    Heh, took some Brits caving here in the Ozarks some years back. We exited the cave after dark and they were ‘tra-la-laing’ down the trail w/o a care in the world until one of us said, “Guys? We do have poisonous snakes here.” They started paying a little more attention then and about 30 seconds later one of them started doing a Texas 2 step around a copperhead that was laying in the trail.

    They started paying a lot more attention after that.

  33. 33.

    p.a.

    Is Donald Trump Christ-like? Peter denied Christ thrice. Pence went further: never acknowledged Trump’s existence! Was Mike Pence a visitor from a Trump-less multiverse? And how can I get there?

  34. 34.

    NorthLeft12

    You can see how comfortable most of the media is with a standard issue GOP pol like “dumbest guy in Farmville” Pence. They oooh and aaaah over his smooth delivery and calm, arrogant demeanor. They are completely okay with a candidate who lies virtually every time they speak, as long as they do it the right way.

    Fortunately, live blogging, Twitter, etc. are available to quickly point out these falsehoods. Unfortunately, that feedback does not reach all the viewers, but you would hope that reporters would check up on any obvious fabrications. Yeah, that sounds pretty hilarious to me too.

  36. 36.

    Hal

    But no poll impact. Doesn’t that contradict the previous points Halperin made? I said before the only VP who may have made a real impact was Sarah Palin, and look how that turned out. Kaine did what the msm missed in their initial post debate analysis, but the impact will be much more obvious as the week goes on.

  37. 37.

    debbie

    Living in an area inundated by political ads, I’ve watched countless Clinton and Dem PAC ads. They all use brief Trump clips to hang him with his own words. What I’ve noticed is how much Trump says what he says just to get a reaction from the audience, like a stand-up comic.

  38. 38.

    craigie

    @NorthLeft12:
    Not just lying smoothly, but ignoring completely any actual policy. So if a GOP pol smoothly says he will kill all your firstborns, they are ok with that. I guess they figure that won’t apply to them either.

  40. 40.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    @craigie: Nope, Mt. Hollywood. Mt. Hollywood is due north of the observatory, Mt. Lee(where the Hollywood Sign is) is northwest of Mt. Hollywood.

  42. 42.

    NorthLeft12

    BTW I read somewhere that after an early mention of the Iraq-US Status of Forces Agreement in the debate, that super genius Chuck Todd said [on air] that Kaine’s claim that GWB’s administration negotiated and signed it, was not true. Did that actually happen?

  45. 45.

    Patricia Kayden

    @Botsplainer:

    Say what you will about the policies of a Ted Cruz, a Mike Pence, a John Kasich or a Marco Rubio, each has some inkling of self-awareness, and would stop to think something that was of a crisis nature through.

    Perhaps. Maybe they’d think through a crisis before acting on it but I have a feeling they would end up reacting to that crisis no differently than Trump. We already have an example of this in how Bush Jr. started two wars (one of which was completely unnecessary).

  46. 46.

    p.a.

    @NorthLeft12: they may not check facts, but twitter is ubiquitous, and they don’t like being called out and shown to be tools. Might not change the current top dogs (and I do mean dogs), but it may be positive for future reporting.

  47. 47.

    trnc

    I guess my main takeaway from the debate is that someone should introduce Mike Pence to his running mate.

  50. 50.

    MJS

    @NorthLeft12: I saw that too, it was posted here early in the debate, but I think someone was simply guessing at what Chuck might say. AFAIK, no networks were giving running commentary during the course of the debate.

  53. 53.

    satby

    @rikyrah: Good morning rikyrah and all ?

    So my die hard Republican cousins are voting Johnson (or staying home, if Johnson continues to say insanely stupid shit). I’m hoping that’s a suburbanite trend ?

  54. 54.

    p.a.

    @Baud: Business opportunity for Trump Inc! Yuge improvements! Trump tweets broadcast to all, no ‘follow’ necessary! *bang bang bang* Priebus head on desk.

  57. 57.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @satby: Seeing as nearly all Republicans spout the same stupid talking points (just a little more dog whistle-y) I’d think they’d just stay home every election.

  63. 63.

    NorthLeft12

    @Baud: You have me a little confused here.

    The media has a tough time dealing with GOP lying.

    Do you mean that they know they are lying and just refuse to address that fact, or that they rationalize their way around it by a) believing the lie themselves; b) believing it to be a difference of opinion and not of fact; or c) gives the Repub the benefit of the doubt in that he is mistaken and not purposely lying.

    The more I see of the modern media behavior they seem to be so different from their much earlier image of cynical and ruthless reporters, to now an almost infant-like gullibility and focus. Maybe I relied too much on movies I watched when I was much younger or novels I read as a teenager. But most of these guys are willfully ignorant and misinformed.

  64. 64.

    Iowa Old Lady

    @Botsplainer:

    He’s simply reactive, and gives zero thought to the ramifications of his words and actions, which explains why he’s been a disaster as a businessman, husband and father

    That pulls together an understanding of Trump’s life. It’s quite clarifying.

    OTOH, god help us. Trump has driven you to saying a semi-good thing about Cruz, Kasich, and Rubio. Curse the man.

  66. 66.

    Baud

    @NorthLeft12: All of the above. It’s ingrained in them that the GOP deserves respect and the benefit of the doubt, no matter what. A significant faux pas that gets the public’s attention might snap thm out of it, but on mundane day to day stuff, the media is submissive to the GOP. (there are exceptions, of course)

  70. 70.

    bemused

    @satby:

    Have your die hard Republican cousins seen the video of Johnson suddenly sticking his tongue way out and talk at the same time? Seriously, what the hell was that? The reporter looked at him as if he had turned into pile of crap Chet.

  72. 72.

    Mustang Bobby

    We will find out later today if my office will be closed tomorrow (Thursday) because of the approach and passing of Hurricane Matthew. As of this writing — early morning on Wednesday — Miami-Dade County is under a tropical storm watch, but just to the north of here, from Fort Lauderdale to Jacksonville, they are under a hurricane watch. If you want to follow the preparation and the warnings, the Miami Herald has lifted their paywall portcullis for the duration.

    Hurricanes are a messy business; they radiate wind and rain miles away from the center of the storm and in my previous brushes with them in 2005 (Katrina and Wilma) even being on the outer edge brings destruction. The authorities tell us to stock up and make plans for hunkering down or evacuation. I’ve followed their advice: both cars have full tanks, I’ve got cash, and I have enough water, canned soup, bread, peanut butter, and Nature Valley birdseed bars to last a week. Oh, and yes, I did renew my renters insurance.

    So we wait.

  73. 73.

    OzarkHillbilly

    A gift, just for Trump:

    The Full Body Project by Leonard Nimoy – in pictures

    These photos of full-figured women were taken by the late Leonard Nimoy in 2007 to challenge entrenched concepts of beauty. They echo the work of artists from Botticelli to Matisse and Helmut Newton. The models are from a burlesque group in San Francisco, the Fat Bottom Revue. All photographs by Leonard Nimoy/courtesy of R Michelson Galleries

  74. 74.

    Comrade Scrutinizer

    @bemused: Lizard People always accidentally reveal themselves. Eternal vigilance. It’s the price of our survival.

  76. 76.

    Kansi

    Kept hearing pundits say that to those who haven’t been playing close attention yet, Kaine might leave a bad impression as too aggressive. I’d like to see the voter subset who say, yeah don’t know much about this election, but I think I will watch a 90 minute VP debate with two people I never heard of.

  77. 77.

    satby

    @bemused: I love those cousins, but they’re politically dumb. We only see each other at weddings and funerals generally. I only know they’re choosing Johnson because occasionally they answer my political posts on FB. But I’m pleased that they’re not such hardcore Rs that they’d get aboard the Drumpf train. They’ve bought the CDS entirely, so they’ll never vote for Clinton, but if the Republican in the race was normal, they would have voted for the puke, so it’s not a lost vote.

  79. 79.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Mustang Bobby: I’d been watching the projections because of the possibility that it might roll over New England after passing the Carolinas, but that now looks like it’s not going to happen. Usually, tropical cyclones (as opposed to extratropical northeasters) aren’t a huge issue where I am, because they lose a lot of energy coming north, and more when they make landfall… but there are exceptions. Stay safe.

  80. 80.

    NorthLeft12

    @MJS: Thanks, I thought it might have been on here that I saw that.

    Funny, but I would have believed it since Chuck Todd was involved. Yeah, the running commentary during a live debate would be something that the networks would not likely do, just because they would be talking over the other guys already talking over each other.

  81. 81.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Kansi: Too aggressive? Compared to what? Trump? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA….. gasp…..wheeze…. Stop it, yer killing me.

  83. 83.

    randy khan

    @bystander:

    So is it now a national requirement that all women doing the weathercast must wear skintight bandeau dresses? I’m on Cape Cod watching Boston tv and these women are wearing the same inappropriate dresses they’re wearing in NYC. Plus the really old guy I would have thought had long been retired is on doing the morning news.

    There’s actually some kind of Facebook group (or something like that) for women who are weather reporters where, among other things, they trade tips on what kinds of dresses to wear on air. So if you were to watch a bunch of channels, you could easily see the forecasters wearing exactly the same things once in a while.

  84. 84.

    MattF

    Didn’t watch the ‘debate’, but it looks like the after-debate topics include Pence’s flat-out dishonesty about Trump. I give Kaine credit for that.

  86. 86.

    Jeffro

    Breaking news it looks like Bill weld has decided to drop off the libertarian ticket and join the Democratic justice league temporarily

  87. 87.

    NorthLeft12

    @Baud: Yes, the media seems to jump over an obvious factual howler [ie. Gerald Ford’s Eastern Europe gaffe] but they let a thousand more slip by. The ones they let go are far more insidious and damaging than the dumb mistake though.
    It’s all about image and perception with the modern pundits. They make me sick.

  88. 88.

    raven

    @Mustang Bobby: They are trying to figure out what to do with the Georgia-South Carolina game scheduled to be played in Columbia Saturday night. Haley has ordered an evacuation of the low country and that means a million people trying to find shelter. The idea that they are fooling around about this game is fucking ridiculous. Last year they moved the SC-LSU game to Baton Rouge and we have our stadium and the Georgia Dome available. Get on it dumbasses.

  89. 89.

    NorthLeft12

    I think the strong takeaway for Dems will be Kaine’s calm and articulate support for a woman’s right to choose. This is exactly the issue for me…..as a former Catholic. Well said.

  90. 90.

    FlipYrWhig

    It’s really pretty amazing that a cable news channel can have like a dozen people on to analyze the debate and at least 11 of them will talk ONLY about body language and tone of voice. Why the fuck do they do that? _Anyone_ can do that. They’re supposed to add value and make observations that Joe Schmoe at home _can’t_. It’d be like having the NFL commentators say “that was a running play, because running plays are when you hand the ball to a runner. Only the scoreboard will be able to tell whether it was an effective play. Chris?”

  93. 93.

    GregB

    Shorter Mike Pence: As a pious and practicing Bible believing Christian, I find crooked Hillary Rotten Clinton’s insult based campaign abhorrent.

  94. 94.

    bemused

    @satby:

    I have some Republican friends and family who are not teaparty wackos but we don’t talk politics. The rare times Trump’s name has come up as a joking reference when we are all in a larger group, there hasn’t been any defense of Trump. Some big sighs. One groaned loudly and put her head in her hands. They don’t seem to be a bit happy. I am curious how they will vote but won’t ask. It’s too damn upsetting when decent people I’ve known all my life reveal some beliefs that are contrary to how they actually conduct their lives and treat people.

  97. 97.

    nonynony

    @Jeffro:

    Breaking news it looks like Bill weld has decided to drop off the libertarian ticket and join the Democratic justice league temporarily

    Eh – it’s more like when Legion of Doom teamed up with the Justice League to help them fight Darkseid. He’s not really joining the league, he’s just decided that Trump’s too dangerous and Johnson is too much of a buffoon to not take it seriously.

    Except comparing Trump to Darkseid is demeaning to Darkseid.

  99. 99.

    Kay

    Everyone is running their own show for their own benefit in the GOP.

    I think it’s the natural end result of the ideology.

    It won’t work with Trump, though. Trump smears crap on anyone who gets near him. People end up fighting for distance so they can maintain a scrap of dignity.

  100. 100.

    satby

    @bemused: it’s all about the money. They’ve bought the bullshit that Republicans are better for the economy and have never had anything penetrate that corrects that false idea. And there is that very low level classist-racism at play: they’re fine with POC who are middle class like them, but their default assumption is that most POC are poor and have “different” values. Which goes double for Muslims, who they also think are dangerous in the abstract. Which they’re told all the time by the media they mostly consume.
    I’m on a multi-year mission to provide a glimpse of information that’s not sourced by the right wing via FB. Because I like windmills.

  101. 101.

    Matt

    Pence won because civility.

    How, even in CNN-land, is backing the Orange One even vaguely “civil”? On the scale of incivility from “farting silently in public” to “skull-fucking the corpse at a funeral”, that’s “aforementioned skull-fucking but while forcing the bereaved to eat your ass”.

  102. 102.

    nonynony

    @Kay:

    Everyone is running their own show for their own benefit in the GOP.

    I think this is exactly right. They have a collective action problem – and it’s mainly because they don’t believe in collective action.

    That’s why obvious grifters and self-dealers can rise so high in the hierarchy of the GOP – there is no community to oppose them. Just a whole bunch of individuals who want to do the same thing so they can’t call it out.

    I pretty much think that W is responsible for this too – W and his cadre of supporters. He destroyed the national GOP and left a leadership vacuum that nobody has been able to fill. Prior to W the party was full of grifters and self-dealers, but there was a leadership apparatus that could at least pull the whole mess together. W destroyed it.

    It doesn’t seem to have infested the state-level parties yet though. Ohio’s GOP seems to still understand what teamwork is and how you have to work together for a common goal. Or maybe they’re just better at faking it because of the overwhelming electoral advantage they seem to have these days.

  105. 105.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Jeffro:

    Weld, who last week said he was “not sure anybody is more qualified than Hillary Clinton to be president of the United States,” plans to travel to a series of red states in the next five weeks to push his anti-Trump message.

    That’s gonna leave a mark.

  106. 106.

    Patricia Kayden

    @NorthLeft12:

    They are completely okay with a candidate who lies virtually every time they speak, as long as they do it the right way.

    That’s what is so dang scary about the media. They’re perfectly okay with a liar, who is partnered with a uniquely dangerous, inexperienced Bigot, being in control of this country’s military and nuclear arsenal. They could care less about the irreparable damage this partnership would cause to this country and the world. Sigh.

  107. 107.

    satby

    @OzarkHillbilly: @Jeffro: and because I am a beyotch, I just posted that link and copied that exact quote on FB.
    By the time of the election, I want most of the puke supporters and libertarian-curious to just stay home.

  108. 108.

    Kay

    @nonynony:

    It hasn’t infested the state Parties because they don’t immediately land in other high-dollar jobs when they lose. My husband thought Pence was auditioning for Fox News after Trump loses. Boehner is making more now than he ever did as an elected.

  109. 109.

    Another Scott

    @randy khan: I remember hearing/seeing a story about that (maybe on the BBC?) a while ago. Those women get paid very little in most markets, and they don’t get a wardrobe budget. So they have to come up with ways to get lots of inexpensive clothes that don’t look cheap but don’t look like the same thing multiple times a month. E.g. this Daily Mail story.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  112. 112.

    satby

    @OzarkHillbilly: OT geometry question for your expertise: that wall in my new kitchen where I want to pull the fridge to and add new cabinets is only 7 feet long (6 1/2 if I don’t impede the doorway to that nook). How would you cram in a smaller fridge, smaller sink, and an 18″ dishwasher? Am I completely hallucinating thinking I can?

  114. 114.

    Applejinx

    Trump will fire him, Trump will fire him. He’s a traitor, he’s Trump’s big mistake. He will try to get elected to be the real President.

    Yes Trump basically said that was exactly what he was for. Doesn’t matter. Trump will fire him, because he ‘won’.

  115. 115.

    FlipYrWhig

    @Kay: But, as you’ve pointed out regarding reporting, they could fill time and space with analysis of what the politician just said, and not “is it consistent with what he said the last time?” but “what would the effect be of really doing that?” And the moderators can do that too. Without that, the whole thing is so hollow and ritualistic, and _embraced_ for being hollow and ritualistic. It’s descending into cargo-cult status: will the gestures he made for us bring a bounty from the sky? Only time will tell!

  116. 116.

    Kay

    @nonynony:

    There’s some of it on the D side too. In 5 years Howard Dean will be Ed Rendell, except Ed Rendell will still be there so there will be two. Why are these people still around? Don’t they have to run for something or go away?

    My daughter lives in Pennsylvania. I had to tell her Rendell was once governor. OMFG go do something productive.

  117. 117.

    Kay

    @FlipYrWhig:

    They could but they have too much time even for that. Honestly, you can get a wrap up of the day’s political news in 10 minutes. The rest is filler. Everyone knows this. You could have dropped out after the DNC and dropped back in today and “the race” would be mostly the same. Two months of filler.

  119. 119.

    Kay

    I like Kaine. I like that his resume includes local and state government and I like that he defends his principles. I would happily support him for President. I heard a talk he did on slavery, Lincoln and the constitution on CSPAN. It wasn’t a prepared speech. He was talking about something he understands. He’s smart.

  120. 120.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @satby:

    Am I completely hallucinating thinking I can?

    That depends, will the frig hold more than an apple, a pint of milk and a slice of bacon? Do you want to wash more than one spear of asparagus at a time? Is the 18″ dishwasher a trained monkey? Do find counter space a waste of good kitchen? (I think you get the idea)

    How wide is your kitchen? Also, did you see where I said that the supporting wall at the frig nook/pantry can be easily taken out and replaced with a support beam?

  121. 121.

    SFAW

    @raven:

    Maybe they can move it to Boston College’s stadium? Since New Englanders don’t generally get fazed by a little rain.

  122. 122.

    Jeffro

    @nonynony:

    Except comparing Trump to Darkseid is demeaning to Darkseid.

    Darkseid’s smarter, more honest, never started Darkseid U, never tried to sell mail-order steaks…good point.

  123. 123.

    Patricia Kayden

    @OzarkHillbilly: Liked all of the photos except the one of the Maasai’s woman’s feet. Didn’t understand how that fit the category. My favorite was of the woman walking down that green bridge.

  124. 124.

    MomSense

    @Botsplainer:

    I had a thought last night that was frightening. We’ve learned from observation and his ghost writer that everything der Trump says about others is projection. So when he called Mexicans rapists and murderers was he talking about himself? There is a current civil case in NY alleging he raped a 13 year old when he was palling around with known sex offender Jeffrey Epstein, whom Trump said liked beautiful women on the young side (EWWWWWWWW). Should we look into old cases of people dying in bizarre falls down elevator shafts during hair furor’s construction projects?

    I’m also wondering just how many people in broadcasting are sociopaths. Regarding Pence’s lying in the debate last night, Morning Joe said flippantly that it’s a “style substance thing”. Really? Repeatedly lying and denying statements that are preserved on video is the moral equivalent of style? We have heard lie after lie from the Republicans and the pundits keep trying to normalize pathological lying. It’s depraved. I would love to make a video of soccer moms and dads watching a video of der Trump and Pence lie about things they have said on camera and just ask them if they would let these two liars babysit their kids. Normalizing this kind of brazen lying is unacceptable.

  125. 125.

    Kay

    I love how everyone pretends no one has ever explained the Democrats position on abortion. Kaine did a good job but Kaine’s position is the Democrats position and it has been for 40 years. Republicans are the people who went far Right on abortion. They need to explain. A lot. What about crisis pregnancies? What about sanctions attached to these laws? Who gets punished? How are they planning on enforcing mandated pregnancy to term anyway? What about medical discretion?

    They’re the ones changing the laws. The onus is supposed to be on them.

    The Republican makes this bullshit, vague pious statement and then they bat it over to the Democrat- “defend THAT”

    Fuck that. I want to hear some details on the new laws they’re planning.

  130. 130.

    bemused

    @satby:

    I was horrified when one woman in her 50’s said she liked to listen to Michael Savage a couple of years ago. She thought he was funny. I heard from a relative that she liked Trump when he first came on the scene. She has two granddaughters but I don’t know how she feels about Trump and his sexism now.
    Another woman in her 60’s grew up with a very Republican Bible reading dad who hated unions. He was a carpenter who wasn’t a union member and I think deeply resented union carpenters getting well paid jobs. This woman is a very loyal person, to her inherited Republican dad’s beliefs, to her church, etc. She is also very soft-hearted and donates to charities. Abortion horrifies her and seems to be a top issue with her. Knowing how she grew up, I think she has God helps those who help themselves deeply ingrained in her outlook on life. She sounds disgusted with people like Whitney Houston and Prince who have died from overdoses…”what a waste”. I think she believes people can overcome addictions if they only had the will to do so.
    I feel sorry for people who were raised with the Republican personal responsibility mantra drummed into their heads. It’s no wonder that they can’t grasp why people can’t overcome addictions, pull themselves out of poverty and so on. But that puts a heavy load of guilt and feelings of failure on them if they or their family members are ever in those situations.

  131. 131.

    FlipYrWhig

    @sherparick: It’s not even good theater criticism! “Admittedly there was no action or character in tonight’s show, but there was a stage, and all the actors stood more or less upright and periodically moved their mouths, and I think that’s what the audience was looking for tonight, Tim. By that measure, a confident and poised performance that may later prove to have been what changed the momentum of the season.”

  132. 132.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Patricia Kayden: I liked the feet, a lot. It said more about the life of a Masai woman than words could ever. But I’m weird and as a travel photo, you may have a point.

  134. 134.

    nonynony

    @Kay:

    OMFG go do something productive.

    They move into the “consulting” class once they fall out of elected politics.

    But I don’t actually think that’s a terrible thing (though in Rendell’s case I’ll make an exception). The elder statespeople should actually be working with the state and national parties to share their experience and expertise to help the next generation come up. The TV punditry can go away, but having a group of experienced but retired politicians working as mentors and party apparatchiks for current politicians isn’t a terrible thing in itself.

  135. 135.

    bemused

    @Kay:

    Rendell would only do something productive if it paid as well and he’d get his face on tv as often as he does now.

  136. 136.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @bemused:

    I think she has God helps those who help themselves deeply ingrained in her outlook on life.

    You should ask her when did Jesus say that.

  137. 137.

    NorthLeft12

    @FlipYrWhig:

    at least 11 of them will talk ONLY about body language and tone of voice.

    THIS^^^ A BILLIONTY MILLION TIMES THIS^^^!
    It’s all about image and perception, style over substance, fantasy over reality. Sickening.

  138. 138.

    NorthLeft12

    @Patricia Kayden: Yes, I would like to believe that the members of the media have some optimistic faith in the inherent intelligence and goodness of the American voter to see through this fog of BS that the media has created, but that theory fails on the face of it.

  139. 139.

    NotMax

    @NorthLeft12

    Baked in since the very first televised debate.

    Those who heard it on radio gave Nixon the win on points. Those who watched on TV, by an overwhelming margin, awarded it to JFK.

  140. 140.

    Another Scott

    @satby: You might need to think outside the box. Could you tolerate a small fridge (maybe even an under-counter one) in the kitchen and a bigger one in another room or the basement? Maybe even wrap the fridge in cabinet panels and put it in the dining room or something? There are tiny fridges and even tiny drawer-based dishwashers now, but I’m sure they’re spendy and may not do what you want/need. But look into them.

    Having an island-like counter/cabinet on casters might be worth considering too, for more work space and storage.

    Maybe pictures 28-31 here will give you some ideas, too.

    Good luck!

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  141. 141.

    Cacti

    Kaine won the debate because he made it a debate about Donald Trump’s fitness to be POTUS. Pence did nothing to reassure anyone about his ticket topper.

  142. 142.

    amk

    @Kay: Arguing that ageism is the real problem is all fine. The dems voted in the youngest and freshest face and then knocked out his chair’s legs in less than 2 years. The dems problem is disinterest, apathy, and lack of drive and initiative to push through their agenda over years. The mcdonald’s mentality.

  143. 143.

    bemused

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    We don’t talk religion either. She goes to the same Lutheran church she was raised in every Sun barring illness or traveling out of town and feels very guilty when she can’t. I’ve never been a member of a church nor will be. Funny that we have been best friends since we were about 5 years old while being totally opposite when it comes to religion and politics. She’s a person no one has a bad word to say about plus she totally gets sarcasm and irony…not your typical Republican personality.

    I don’t discount the power of growing up with an authoritarian type parent shaping her views. Straying too far from those views even though her parents passed away years ago is difficult for many to do.

  144. 144.

    NorthLeft12

    @MomSense: According to Repubs and the pundits that worship them, “Everybody does it!”. “IT” includes adultery, cheating on taxes, fraud, sexual assault, uttering violent threats, and bigotry.

    Yes, projection with a capital P.

  145. 145.

    Miss Bianca

    @debbie:

    What I’ve noticed is how much Trump says what he says just to get a reaction from the audience, like a stand-up comic.

    Trump the Insult Comic Dog? Or would that be Comic Gibbon?

  146. 146.

    Bill

    I’ll be honest, I stopped watching about half an hour in to the debate last night because I could not handle all the talking over each other. I went back and watched a bunch of highlights this morning, which was a much more palatable way to take in that shit show.

    Pence is awful in both style and substance. His lying about what Trump said was over the top even for a Republican. I can’t wait for the side by side footage of Trump saying awful things, and Pence denying he ever said it. Plus he comes off as a cross between a televangelist and a used car salesman.

    I also have no idea what Kaine was supposed to bring to the table. Nothing about him excites me. (Not that it matters much this election because I’d walk through fire to vote for Secretary Clinton.) He’s like watching a high school vice principal give a lecture to a truant kid.

  147. 147.

    Miss Bianca

    @OzarkHillbilly: But is Weld actually going to go to red states and say, “don’t vote for Trump, don’t vote for us, vote for HRC”? *That*would leave a mark for sure!

  148. 148.

    Redleg

    The media reversal from “Pence won on style” to “Kaine won on substance” is not unusual when you think about it from a psychological perspective in which emotional and cognitive processes work in parallel and emotional processes tend to work much faster and more automatically than the slower and more controlled cognitive processes.

    The stylistic aspects of a debate, such as interrupting, talking over, making strange facial expressions or odd gestures,and clever zingers tend to have a stronger impact on the viewer’s emotional state at the moment than on the viewer’s cognitive appraisal of what was actually said (the substance or content). When asked to judge the debate immediately following the debate, it is likely that the viewer’s feelings about the style will be more accessible than the viewer’s cognitions about the substance, since the cognitive “side” of information processing hasn’t quite caught up with the faster emotional side. It will take a bit of time to recall and judge the debate on terms of substance, so we would expect the critique of substance to follow the critique of style. The unfortunate part, however, is that the viewer’s emotional state at the time of recall will likely have an impact on what information is most accessible to the viewer’s recall, usually in favor of the debater who “won” the stylistic aspects of the debate.

    Anyway, I felt the same way as some of the talking heads on MSNBC. While I don’t believe that Pence won the “style” portion, I was initially concerned about Kaine’s interruptions starting in the early part of the debate. Kaine appeared to get things under control as the debate progressed while Pence appeared to be a bit less controlled over time. After considering the actual statements of the candidates, I concluded that Kaine did a better job providing details of policy proposals (points 1 through 5 for example) and showing that he had a good grasp of the issues. Pence did not provide much detail on any policy proposal other than on immigration. He also made a few unclear statements on the Syria/Russia issue, including the notion that we needed to stand up to Russia by attacking Syrian targets.

    Although Pence had a relatively calm demeanor during much of the debate, he was also lying through his teeth a good part of the time, either mischaracterizing Clinton’s actions and policies and the state of the economy and by denying that he and Trump had made the public statements that they had made. It takes some real chutzpah to accuse the Clinton campaign of personal attacks against Trump when all Kaine did was use Trump’s own words against him.

    Anyway, I am looking forward to another Clinton debate win this Sunday.

  149. 149.

    Elizabelle

    @Miss Bianca: Weld’s biggest contribution would be dropping off the Libertarian ticket, endorsing Hillary, and campaigning for her.

    This “all attacking Trump, all the time” is pretty much an appeal to Glibertarians who want to vote “none of the above”. No courage at all from Weld. He probably doesn’t want to be a laughingstock now that Gary Johnson’s liabilities as a candidate and potential statesman have hit the news. He can’t seriously promote that.

    He might be pulling away some votes that would have gone to the Democrats, just to keep Trump out of the White House.

    Weld’s actions are pretty self-serving, IMHO.

  150. 150.

    Matt McIrvin

    @Kay: I’ve talked to some progressives–Bernie supporters but not Bernie-or-Busters–who still regard the selection of Kaine as a betrayal, and say he seriously dampened their enthusiasm for the ticket. I like him but I’m from Virginia; to me, he just seems like the kind of liberal who succeeds in Virginia.

  151. 151.

    Uncle Cosmo

    @OzarkHillbilly: Cripes, that’s nothing compared with Kotor (& I’ve been in both) when even one ocean-going cruise ship is in port. I was there in 2013 & the entire Old Town was gridlocked from pedestrian traffic alone.

  153. 153.

    Jeffro

    @Matt McIrvin:

    I’ve talked to some progressives–Bernie supporters but not Bernie-or-Busters–who still regard the selection of Kaine as a betrayal, and say he seriously dampened their enthusiasm for the ticket. I like him but I’m from Virginia; to me, he just seems like the kind of liberal who succeeds in Virginia.

    I like him a lot too: great judgement, smart, principled. All the things that should matter. Maybe he can borrow Uncle Joe’s shades and Trans Am for the complete package. =)

  154. 154.

    the Conster, la Citoyenne

    @Bill:

    Clinton’s team already has the ad up showing Kaine’s words about Trump on one side of the split screen, Pence’s denial and Trump’ saying the exact words on the other side of the split screen. It’s devastating, unless you’re a Trump supporter which means you live in upside down world.

    To your point about Kaine – he’s a white male ally of women and people of color, who gets it. Really gets it, as a lived experience. He’s a role model for other white guys, and did his job of supporting Hillary. A really good job of doing that, and showing other guys how it’s done.

  155. 155.

    FlipYrWhig

    @Matt McIrvin:

    I’ve talked to some progressives–Bernie supporters but not Bernie-or-Busters–who still regard the selection of Kaine as a betrayal, and say he seriously dampened their enthusiasm for the ticket.

    Because what they wanted was someone whose selection would generate headlines saying that Clinton made a pick to appeal to progressives, because that would make them feel important. They are some of the whiniest, neediest motherfuckers around.

  156. 156.

    Tilda Swinton's Bald Cap

    Just remember one thing for 2020. The media proclaimed that the guy who lied the entire 90 minutes was the winner. The media is morally and intellectually bankrupt. They are a failed institution.

  158. 158.

    Patricia Kayden

    I listen to Liberal talk show host, Stephanie Miller, and she just said that the whole country is being attacked by a scary Orange clown. I’m dying of laughter. At the very least, this election has given us some good laughs despite the fear that an egomaniac could win (although that possibility is growing slimmer by the day). After this is all over, I’m sure many of us will laugh and laugh for hours on end about the spectacle that has been Trump’s bizarre and clueless campaign.

  159. 159.

    J R in WV

    @satby:

    You may know already, but in case not, here goes.

    The financial indicators, from stock market to employment, wages earned, everything, all indicators do much better during Democratic adminisrations. You can look anywhere and see this effect.

    During Republican administrations, all economic indicators typically fall, as what is good for the Masters of the Universe – Republican Ownership – is not so good for the economy as a whole. Over and over we have proven that trickle down doesn’t, and the Laffer Curve of tax cuts producing economic benefits is a laugher, false every time it’s tried out in real life, each time a Republican President is elected in other words.

    Google for a chart with both financials and political administrations, they are out there. Republicans lie, we know this for we can see their lips move. Money and power for themselves is all they think about. You don’t have to like a president to agree with her economic strategies.

  160. 160.

    J R in WV

    @Kay:

    They could educate us about the rest of the world. Hearing BBC a lot recently, there’s a ton of news out there. Things important happen all over the world. But they never mention the cease-fire in Colombia that just got killed off by a referendum, for one tiny example.

  161. 161.

    workworkwork

    @bystander: My theory is that they’re dressed for the after-show cocktail party where they go into a corner and make out with the sports guy.

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