This is what being ‘people of faith’ is supposed to look like: These Mormons take their religion’s teachings seriously, and attempt in their daily lives to live up to its ideals. And when it comes time to vote for civic leaders, they look for those who’ve also tried to live by their common virtues, even if their punchlist of “issues” isn’t in total alignment. (As a nun once told me, We’re looking for guidelines here, not for loopholes.) Good for the people in this ad… and for the people on HRC’s media team that put it together!
The past 2 weeks in a single chart—from a dead heat, to Clinton leading by a historic margin: https://t.co/m7WovaTLJK pic.twitter.com/ymT7HZC9FM
— Yoni Appelbaum (@YAppelbaum) October 11, 2016
If this woman got a congress that would work with her, we could (ironically, given… everything) imagine change. https://t.co/dEGWhnRSfT
— Rebecca Traister (@rtraister) October 11, 2016
Baud
They are sooooo good, it’s scary.
Trentrunner
Fine, but we LGBT people in California have NOT forgotten how out-of-state Mormons poured money into the 2008 anti-marriage equality proposition–AND WON. (This directly kept me from being able to marry.)
So, yeah, the “squeaky clean” Mormons can vote how they like. But, as far as I’m concerned, and always will be concerned: They can also fuck right the fuck off, fuckily.
lamh36
Speaking of “I’m With Her”…I read somewhere, Michelle O will be on the trail with Tim Kaine in NH this week.
No need to say it here, but I LOVE FLOTUS!
And stuff like this, is why –>
@sesamestreet
.@FLOTUS joins Rosita and Zari for an inspiring message on #DayoftheGirl! #LetGirlsLearn
PhoenixRising
@Trentrunner: careful. Don’t be the one who refuses to take yes for an answer.
SiubhanDuinne, liberal mob enforcer bitch
Apparently Drumpf is (subconsciously) With Her Too, based on his voting advice to his followers.
Baud
@SiubhanDuinne, liberal mob enforcer bitch: It’s RIGGED, I say. RIGGED!
cynthia ackerman
One thing I have always admired about Mormonism is its fundamental certainty of perfectability.
You can be a Saint.
Contrasted with Judeo-Christian guilt, there is something positive here.
In other ways Mormons are completely nutty, but by gosh they think pretty highly of you.
Omnes Omnibus
@Trentrunner: Let’s take their votes and then not ask them to the after-party – it not like they show up anyway..
divF
@Trentrunner: It is also a little jarring how unrelievedly white the people in this ad are.
That said, these are Mormons for Hillary. I am willing to suspend disbelief to think that the intersection of such a group and the Prop. 8 Mormons is small, approaching nonexistent.
FlyingToaster
@Trentrunner: These are almost certainly not the Mormons who threw money at California.
Romney ≠ Reid
Major Major Major Major
@Baud: on Facebook I list my political views with the old “I am not a member of any organized political party, I am a democrat” quip. I’ve been worried I’ll need to change it soon, but I’m sure it will be accurate again next time we hold a house of congress.
Baud
@divF: Are there a lot of minority Mormons? Some groups simply are almost all white.
amk
Drew Linzer
Baud
@Major Major Major Major: Right. Let’s wait a spell before considering ourselves well-oiled.
divF
@Baud: The Mormons came to racial equality pretty late in the game (1978).
? Martin
@Trentrunner: I can’t argue with any of that – we fought pretty hard on Prop 8 as well, but consider whether LGBTs are better off with their votes or not, and consider if Mormons listen to Democrats more whether they are likely to be more broadly supportive of LGBTs.
Remember the campaign slogan: Stronger together.
Anoniminous
@Trentrunner:
Take their votes and stick the shiv in their back later.
It’s the American way.
Zinsky
There are a lot of Mormons in the suburb where I live and while I certainly don’t agree with some of their viewpoints, particularly the wretched paternalism, but they tend to be decent people. They are great singers and wonderful neighbors and will help with any problem or project you have. I certainly would rather have Mormon neighbors than evangelical Christian ones, who tend to be stand-offish, judgmental assholes. Just sayin’…
Baud
@divF: I knew that! I don’t know what they are like now. They recruit fairly aggressively.
schrodinger's cat
Spokeskitteh PSA: Keep the shouty clown away from me.
Major Major Major Major
@Baud: what’s Bernie been up to lately?
Baud
@Major Major Major Major: I think he’s been good lately. Credit where credit is due.
? Martin
Consider the scope of the social challenge we have ahead of us: the way things stand now we’re probably looking at a 40-50 point gender gap in the presidential race. There’s no way that ends on Nov 8.
divF
@Baud: They came around in part due to their missionary efforts in South America. Now there are 500K black Mormons worldwide.
Baud
@divF: But in the U.S.? The ad isn’t going to feature foreign Mormons.
Mike J
@Baud: They didn’t consider black people human until 1979.
Gin & Tonic
Last night Adam posted the Eichenwald/Newsweek story about Russian propaganda being (apparently) piped directly into the Trump campaign. Tonight he posted more details, with comments from the intelligence community. As a result he is being attacked relentlessly on Twitter – not by Trumkins, but by Greenwaldites.
Tells you a lot, doesn’t it?
Major Major Major Major
@Baud: sshhhh, I’m trying to start a fight
scav
@divF: But they certainly don’t send all their missionaries to lily-white destinations. (I’ve vague recollections they’re among the faster growing denominations.) I’m just really unclear about how many of those make it to Utah.
ETA: Huh. I either never knew or forgot the Romney connection to the Mexican colonies
Baud
@Major Major Major Major: Can’t you hold off until November 9? (Or is it November 29?)
Baud
@Gin & Tonic: How does one know on Twitter which clan they belong to?
schrodinger's cat
@Gin & Tonic: Greenwald, Assange, Snowden all birds of the same feather.
cokane
House + Senate would be nice even for just 2 years, last time we got Obamacare, economy saving stimulus and a significant draw down on overseas troops.
SiubhanDuinne, liberal mob enforcer bitch
@Baud:
I, for one, am totally in favor of having him remind Republican voters that Election Day is November 28th. As often and loudly as possible.
Mary G
They are reading from her book and those words are more inspirational than 99% of political ads. I was shocked to hear “Mormons for Hillary” at the end, even though I noticed the whiteness.
Bill E Pilgrim
I really thought this was the Onion at first.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@SiubhanDuinne, liberal mob enforcer bitch: Remember to talk to your family at Thanksgiving, convince them to vote Trump over turkey.
cokane
@Gin & Tonic: Greenwald and the Intercept are fucking nuts on this story. Admittedly it’s their wheelhouse, so in a clickbait economy, they’re fools for not publishing it.
Look I’m sure many, maybe most of emails are legit. But man, they are going to get burned with this lack of journalistic rigor, if not now, eventually. It’ll be like Dan Rather-National Guard shit.
patroclus
The Mormons (or at least BYU, which is the same thing) appear to be on the verge of a major shift in policy as a result of their wanting to get their football program into the Big 12 Conference. BYU’s “honor code,” by its own terms has always discriminated against LBGT people; prohibiting all forms of public displays of affection between people of the same sex and mandating an honor code hearing and expulsion if students (or anybody subject to the code) violate it. It has allowed limited forms of such displays by heterosexual students. And it prohibits all forms of pre-marital sex by anyone. The word is that they have agreed to change this to be non-discriminatory if the Big12 agrees to admit them – various student groups at Big 12 schools have demonstrated and passed student legislative resolutions on the issue and the Big 12 schools’ administrations have listened. In addition, BYU has already announced a non-discriminatory policy regarding attendees at sporting events. Now, this would not be a quid pro quo, but it is effectively one. So, if this happens, thank the students at the Big 12 schools for taking a stand on the issue.
In 1978, the LDS Church memorably changed their policy on African Americans. Notwithstanding the Prop H8 campaign, 2016 could similarly see a sea change regarding LGBT’s.
jl
The ad choked my up a little, even after realizing that Mormons were reading the lines. Which was kind of jarring, since I have a few not too favorable opinions. Utah is plus Trump by ten or eleven, right? Not much chance. Maybe HRC figures if she makes a move there, will rattle more Utah pols to abandon Trump and make some news.
Anyway, sweet ad with great message. Yeah, Mormons for Hillary.
amk
@Gin & Tonic: assange, greenwald and alt-reichs. talk about strange bedfellows.
psycholinguist
Anybody know what they were reading? Was that Hillary’s book, or some Mormon tome?
Adam L Silverman
@cynthia ackerman: There is no such thing as Judeo-Christian guilt. There is Jewish notions of guilt and there are various Christian (Catholic, Protestant) notions of guilt. They do not line up, they do not overlap. In fact there is no Judeo-Christian anything. Judaism is a primary religion that is complete unto itself. Christianity is a secondary religion that draws from Judaism, as well as Hellenistic mystery religions and fuses the disparate strands into something new. American Evangelical Protestantism is a tertiary offshoot of Protestant Christianity (one type of the secondary religion that is Christianity) that has reimported/reemphasized the Judaic scriptures in a particularly unique and reactionary manner that, in relation to the 2,000 year historic arc of Christianity and its development, makes little actual theological or dogmatic sense.
The phrase Judeo-Christian is offensive in regards to Jews and Judaism as it indicates that the former is subsumed within the latter and has no value except in relation to its partial offshoot.
ETA: I want to make to make it clear I’m not trying to dump on you. I apologize if the above is more acerbic in how it comes across than is what is intended. Almost no one realizes the dynamic when they use Judeo-Christian.
Mnemosyne
@Trentrunner:
FWIW, a lot of ordinary Mormons ended up being pissed off at their leadership because they felt like they got hounded into supporting Prop 8 and then had to deal with the massive backlash against it. I don’t think the church’s leadership would be willing to push that hard again against anything.
@Baud:
In the US, they’re pretty white, but they’ve had a lot of luck converting people in the South Pacific, so worldwide they have a pretty sizable Asian/Pacific Islander contingent. That’s why there’s a BYU campus in Hawai’i.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Three words too many
divF
@Baud: Correction: 1M worldwide, but only 180K in the US, and there is a high attrition rate, so very few lifetime Mormons (all this is from the Wikipedia link).
All things considered, it is understandable that the ad would be so white. Particularly given the rest of the Clinton ad campaign, it was (to me at least) quite striking.
Baud
@Adam L Silverman:
No guilt in Pastafarianism.
Anne Laurie
@divF: I strongly suspect this ad is targeted at Mormons in particular swing states… ones that may not be, shall we say, minority-weighted. (Or even minority-friendly.)
And remember, much as I hate to give the guy any credit, it was out-and-proud Mormon Mitt Romney who signed the first state-wide bill permitting gay marriage. Not a bill he supported, or agreed with, but once Justice Marshall put it on his desk, Romney did his job, to use a Dem tagline.
Bill E Pilgrim
@Adam L Silverman: There is WASP gilt though.
jl
@patroclus: I think new revelations are allowed in LDS. They have some council of elders who are authorized to get them. Perfectly respectable. Progressive revelation is a doctrine in many branches of mainline Christianity. Mormons are good at planning preparation and foresight. Glad they can progress, on important issues like polygamy, racial prejudice, permitted soda pops, other important issues.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Charlie Sykes looks like he ready to go apeshilt as a Hill reporter talks about Turmp’s war on Sweet Paulie Blue Eyes
Adam L Silverman
@Gin & Tonic: This is surprising?
Major Major Major Major
@Baud: I was just starting to feel nervous. But somebody is bashing the intercept now so I imagine I’ll feel better soon.
catclub
@Baud:
Mara Liasson, believe it or not, said about Trump saying he could grab women by the pu$$Y because he is a big star, “Talk about a rigged system”.
I thought wow.
Mnemosyne
@jl:
Both Nevada and Arizona have large Mormon populations, so that’s more where the ad is targeted. Nevada leans blue, and Arizona is looking like it might swing, so it’s definitely worth a try.
Some people are saying that, after last week, even Utah might not be out of bounds. Mormons strongly prize niceness and politeness, so they’ve never been comfortable with Trump. Plus they’re not on board with Muslim-bashing since they still have a strong cultural memory of their own religious persecution.
Gin & Tonic
@Baud: You can look at the timeline of their own Tweets and who they’re following and make inferences.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Anoniminous
@jl:
Real Clear Politics has Trump ahead by 14, HuffPo has him up 18. Nobody I know thinks Utah will flip to the Blue column.
ETA: the ad is probably aimed at Arizona where there is a large Mormon vote and Clinton does have a shot of flipping.
jl
@Adam L Silverman: Doesn’t the Person Achaemenid Dynasty want to have a word with you?
Adam L Silverman
@cokane: There’s a self preservation on this. They’ve tied themselves to Wikileaks and Putin via Snowden. If the DOJ’s Counterintelligence folks start pulling on those threads regarding the hacks, the damage isn’t going to be limited and they’re not going to be able to hide.
Jean
@amk: 100% is what Plouffe said a week ago or so on MSNBC.
JMG
When people are struggling with what for them is a real crisis, kindness and openness are the only means of communication.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: Trump’s just taking a page from the Baud!2016! playbook, rig the election against himself.
jl
@Baud:
‘ No guilt in Pastafarianism. ‘
Thanks. I now have the Word of Baud on that. I’ll have mine with meat balls tonight. No guilt! Wheee….
Mary G
@psycholinguist: Hillary’s book It Takes a Village. Right-wingers particularly despise it because they think it’s advocating communism.
Mnemosyne
@Adam L Silverman:
I’ve seen some sources claim that the guy who originally came up with the phrase “Judeo-Christian” was an anti-semite who was trying to get people to abandon Christianity in favor of atheism because it had corrupt Jewish roots. Not sure if it’s true or if it’s propaganda on top of propaganda.
Gin & Tonic
@Adam L Silverman: No, just pointing it out.
Bobbo
Aren’t there some major Utah pols who came out pro-same-sex marriage? Governor? Mayor of SLC?
Adam L Silverman
@jl: I do not have a voicemail from them.
Anne Laurie
@jl:
The #NeverTrump professional Repubs are making a vast push, right now, in favor of Evan McMullin as the Trump-alternative. This is explictly pitched to Mormons, because EM is one of them.
They don’t want to (be seen to) give electoral votes to Hillary, but they very much want to deny them to Deadbeat Donald. Since McMullin is liable to pull even fewer potential Hillary voters than Gary Johnson, I’m willing to let them do all they can towards that goal!
Barbara
@Trentrunner: FWIW, and I can’t point to a reference, but I believe the Mormon church officially decided to stop interfering in gay marriage battles (well before most recent court decisions). It doesn’t take the sting out of what they did, but it shows some capacity to change.
SiubhanDuinne, liberal mob enforcer bitch
@Bill E Pilgrim:
And it is slathered on every piece of furniture in the Trump Tower family penthouse.
Bobbo
@Anoniminous:
Also forcing Trump to spend $$ in Utah?
Felonius Monk
@Baud:
Some people have been known to have guilt pangs, if they have failed to put enough garlic in the sauce.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: Didn’t Snack Team Six leave a 55 gallon drum of lube?
Gin & Tonic
@Bobbo: SLC has had Democratic mayors for the last 40 years.
Anoniminous
@Mnemosyne:
Clinton can win Nevada without the Mormon vote, which is why I think it is aimed at Arizona. Getting Mormon votes in Nevada would be lagniappe.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Bobbo: Rocky Anderson, former mayor of SLC, and apparently his successor as well
Bill E Pilgrim
@SiubhanDuinne, liberal mob enforcer bitch: I’m thinking maybe you didn’t click my link.
Adam L Silverman
@Mnemosyne: Wouldn’t surprise me. Martin Luther wanted to jettison the Jewish Scriptures/Old Testament from the Christian Bible, but ultimately gave up on that. That should tell you what the father of Protestantism thought of Judaism.
hovercraft
@Major Major Major Major:
It’s eerie how organized and disciplined our last three presidential campaigns have been. What happened to us?
Thanks Obama!!
Now if only we could learn to stop bedwetting.
Mnemosyne
@Mary G:
I recognized it once they got to the “takes a village” part. And it’s also a smart move for that audience because that kind of language about community is exactly in their wheelhouse as far as their religious values.
Plus the book is, what, over 20 years old now? Nobody can claim that this is some new belief (or flip-flop) on her part, it’s what she’s been saying for decades now.
Anoniminous
@Bobbo:
The mayor of SLC is a lesbian and since she got married earlier this year I think it’s safe to conclude she is in favor of Same Sex Marriage.
Baud
@Mnemosyne:
You clearly don’t appreciate the power of Hillary Hate.
cokane
@Adam L Silverman: What’s your opinion on Eichenwald and now people like NYMag and WaPo criticizing Eichenwald? Seems like legit criticism
http://nymag.com/selectall/2016/10/putin-doesnt-need-a-trump-mole-when-he-has-the-internet.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/10/11/the-trump-putin-link-that-wasnt/
That all being said, I still think news orgs that are credulously posting all of these recent emails as true are going down a path of getting burned hard eventually, akin to Rather like I said.
bluehill
It’s kind of ironic that all these tough guy repubs can’t stand up to Trump, in some cases literally running away, while a woman is kicking his @$$.
cynthia ackerman
@Adam L Silverman: I sit corrected, and thank you.
In my own experience there is a similarity between secular Jews and secular Catholics especially which suggests a common frame of guilt theologically. Theocracy os different, but I catch your drift.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Anoniminous: Guess I shoulda read Wiki more carefully… I remember Rocky Anderson was something of a Dem celebrity in the later Bush years and I was curious to see if there had been a backlash.
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud:
You could power a city with it.
Punchy
So if the Dems fail to take the House, will all the GOP vote (no) in unison on everything for 4 years, just to ensure her demise?
Shorter: will the HOR go extreme Burn-It-Down just to save their party at the expense of the country? Cant imagine how that would engender good feelings and more votes.
Mnemosyne
@Adam L Silverman:
Well, it’s not like my ancestral Catholics were much better — it took John XIII and Vatican II to write all of the anti-Semitic crap out of Catholic doctrine, and you still had assholes like Mel Gibson’s father leaving the church because of it.
jl
@Adam L Silverman: Aww,, snap! Ask the Great and Good Baud to hook you up, then.
Mary G
I love me some John Scalzi, and two things:
1) his new novella is avaiable as audiobook only and free at Audible right now. I’ve listened to it and I liked it.
2) he has a new entry up on his blog about the GOP:
Jim, Foolish Literalist
hmmmm….. LO’D just teased a ‘surprising’ poll out of Georgia
ETA: And while looking for that Wilson tweet, I saw this
Frank Luntz @ FrankLuntz 20m20 minutes ago
Between Sept. 10th and Oct. 10th, the Florida GOP registered 117 new voters.
Florida Democrats registered 6,920.
jl
@Punchy:
” will all the GOP vote (no) in unison on everything for 4 years, just to ensure her demise? ”
They will hunker down and BS in the locker room.
PVDMichael
The President looked like he was enjoying the schadenfreude out on the campaign trail. Good for him.
Anoniminous
@Bobbo:
Trump is reported to be pulling ad money from Florida, Ohio, North Carolina, Iowa, Colorado, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania, and Maine. He simply HAS to have Florida and Ohio to win so pulling ads there to buy in a state where he is comfortably ahead doesn’t make any sense.
hovercraft
@Adam L Silverman:
The irony being that those who use the term most often are the people who profess to be the closest most bestest friends of Jews and Israel. Well at least until the rapture kills them all when they refuse to convert to Christianity.
jenn
@schrodinger’s cat: Plus emptywheel is tweeting at Josh @ TPM, evidently under the mistaken impression that Russian hacks and disinformation leaks would **never** be falsified. Something something gmail. Something something, Podesta would surely recognize if they’re false. To which I answer, (a) how is it I know more about how disinformation campaigns work? Seriously, she assumes that Russian hackers, Russian intelligence, and flipping Wikileaks all have our best interests at heart? and (b) Podesta’s thinking the hack may have come away with TEN YEARS of emails. If you have 100,000 bland emails, and 17 have been falsified and buried in there … the only way is for him to confirm every damn email that comes to some journalist’s (or “journalist’s”) attention. That is a significant fucking burden on someone who is, in reality, a victim of a crime.
Major Major Major Major
@Punchy:
Curious about your use of the future tense there.
BillinGlendaleCA
@jl:
IIRC, the Church President is also a prophet. This is how Blacks were allowed into the priesthood.
Peale
@Anoniminous: maybe he just wants national ads during football games?
dmsilev
@Omnes Omnibus: And it’s endlessly renewable!
Not particularly clean though.
schrodinger's cat
@Adam L Silverman: What is the historical root of anti-Semitism because I don’t get it. The virulent hatred makes no sense to me.
Adam L Silverman
@cynthia ackerman: No worries. There are significant differences in the nature of guilt between Judaism and Christianity – both Catholicism and Protestantism just as there are differences between Catholicism and Protestantism.
The primary difference is that in Judaism you actually have to do something wrong before you incur a penalty and therefore guilt and the need for repentance. There are no thought crimes in Judaism. This is not the case in Christianity. Also, one of the similarities between Judaism and Catholicism is that nature is not, itself, perverse. For Protestants, rooted in Luther’s own teachings, nature is itself corrupted and corrupting. And, of course, there is no original sin in Judaism.
Baud
@jenn: How did they hack his Gmail account? A vulnerability in the system?
Mnemosyne
@Adam L Silverman:
Okay, now I have to re-post this:
Siskel and Ebert on the country’s real problem: the fucking Protestants
Anne Laurie
@psycholinguist:
Hillary’s famous ‘It Takes A Village’ book. That’s what I meant about faith alignment — Mormons don’t agree with everything a Methodist like Clinton believes, but the ad shows them reading her testimony and deciding, okay, this is someone whose commitment is to the same deep faith as ours.
The ad says Let’s start from common ground, and work towards compromise for everyone’s good. Yes, there’s part of me that wants to hear, The Repubs got themselves into this quicksand, let’s laugh & applaud while they drown in it… but I’m not the vote she’s reaching for here.
Bill E Pilgrim
I’m seeing more pieces about the growing plausibility of the GOP losing the House. I don’t know if it’s sunk in for a lot of people, but in addition to Democrats hanging Trump around the neck of any Republicans running for the House and Senate, Trump is now attacking Republican members of Congress and saying that he hopes they lose. The GOP nominee.
Baud
@schrodinger’s cat: The Romans.
hovercraft
@Anoniminous:
I think the hope, at least among the Never Trump supporters is for Evam Mucmullen to win Utah.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I suspect she’s going rogue. Trump would never admit to not having gotten it right the first time.
And if he had, he would’ve wanted some kind of public ceremony, with big stars like Voigt and Kirstie Alley, and music by Nugeant and Meatloaf
Anoniminous
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I only know about it because a guy who lived there married a very good friend of mine and moved here to be with his husband.
dmsilev
@Bill E Pilgrim: Well, the GOP started the fight, what with at least a few of them deciding that they were uncomfortable with having an admitted sexual predator as their nominee. A few of them, mind. Most seem to be at least accepting of the idea.
Geoduck
@Bobbo: It’s my understanding that Salt Lake City proper is surprisingly cosmopolitan and tolerant. It’s only when you get out into the surrounding boonies that you encounter the real knuckle-draggers.
Aleta
Jibeaux
I have lost my purse or wallet about 4 tumes in my life, and every time it’s actually been returned, but 3 of those times without the cash in it. The only time every penny was untouched was when I left it on a park bench in Salt Lake City. So that’s my tiny soft spot for Mormons.
If you want to see the 180 degree opposite reaction, I recommend Alex Jones in full on meltdown mode. I don’t know how to link it, but I saw an edited version from a site called Cafe.
jl
@Mnemosyne: @Anne Laurie: Thanks for info. Can’t believe I forgot about the NV and AZ Mormons. Since I have or had family in AZ, ID and NV, I should have thought about that. Certainly remember Mormon presence when visiting Boise and Pokeytown.
And i can see the very clean cut and wholesome and earnest McMullin being a Mormon.
schrodinger's cat
@Baud: Aah the original Republicans!
Baud
@Aleta: Hillary Rettig will be pleased.
Anoniminous
@Peale:
I have no idea what that asshole (and his little Bannon too!) thinks he’s doing. Main sporting events, like Football, are the most expensive ad-buys one can make and the evidence isn’t there that they do a political campaign a damn bit of good
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Geoduck: I was there in the eighties with my family, and my dad had to go to a locked cabinet with the restaurant manager to get an airplane bottle of gin for his martini.
I was there about ten years ago, and bars were private clubs where you had to pay a dollar cover charge.
I gather now it has a thriving brew pub scene.
Bill E Pilgrim
@dmsilev: Oh assigning whose fault it is was the last thing I was thinking about, I mean that’s a whole other and interesting topic, but it just occurs to me how now both parties, including the very head of theirs — whether they like it or not that’s what he is at the moment — are attacking and dissing GOP House members running for reelection. Just crystallized for me why it might actually be pull-offable for Democrats, as people have been writing.
dmsilev
@Aleta: So it’s come to that. Puppies have come out in favor of Hillary Clinton. Have the kittens endorsed yet?
Mark B
@Anoniminous: he’s not trying to win any more. He’s just trying to create the biggest shitstorm he can. Chaotic evil.
Mnemosyne
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
And since my cold is making me cranky tonight, here’s where I start a religious war and bitch some more about the basic moral bankruptcy of Protestantism’s belief in “faith not works.” If all you have to do in order to go to Heaven is say some magic words and nothing else because grace alone will save you, then you’ve basically allowed people to continue being assholes 24/7 but feel righteous about it because, hey, they feel in their hearts that they’re already saved, so they don’t have to take any further action. The only thing Trump’s being “born again” would do is make him a braying, self-righteous asshole on a few extra subjects.
Say what you will about the Mormons, but at least their church has a religious obligation for charitable works (that mostly go towards their own church members, but anyway …) IIRC, that was one of the rumors about Mitt’s taxes: that they would show he had not been tithing at the level he’s obligated to and would lose status within the church.
PPCLI
[This is not a joke original to me, but I can’t remember where I read it, maybe a month ago. It does seem to me more fitting every day. Too good not to share. Apologies if it’s old hat and I’m just the last to know.]
I have a vision of Trump, at the end of election night, after losing massively, the GOP in ruins, the political landscape spinning God knows where. He steps up to the microphone for what people expect will be a concession speech. He looks out at the audience and says: “And I call this: “The Aristocrats” “
Adam L Silverman
@schrodinger’s cat: It was rooted in a need to differentiate early, Pauline Christianity – which just becomes (the basis of) Christianity for most of the West (this leaves out the Copts, the Syriacs, the Chaldeans, and the Abbassinian Churches) – from Judaism in the Roman Empire. At the time that Christianity was developing, but before it was made the official religion by Constantine, it was in competition with Judaism and several other religions and sects – most notably Mithraism an offshoot of Zoroastrianism. The oldest Christian sect, which did not survive, where the Ebionites (Ebionim – meaning Pure Men). This was the synagogue of James the brother of Jesus. They maintained their practice of (rabbinic) Judaism with the addition that Jesus was the anointed (Meshiach/Messiah) king, had been taken into a spiritual communion with the Deity, and would return to lead the Jews/Judeans against the Romans. They lost the protection of the other rabbinic Jewish authorities during the Bar Kochba revolt when Bar Kochba was declared/anointed as the King. They fled to Pella in what is now Syria where they were ultimately put down by representatives of the official Church. They left behind to gospels: The Gospel According to the Hebrews and the Gospel According to Peter that were discovered at Nag Hamadi (also called the Nag Hamadi corpus or gospels) that recount a very different Jesus than the synoptic gospels (though there are significant overlaps with Mark and Matthew in parts), the Gospel of John, and/or the Gnostic gospels.
The actual accusation is rooted in the Jews being both regicides and deicides. That the Jews, specifically the priests (Saducees) gave up their king, who was also their Deity incarnate, for execution to protect their social, religious, political, and economic status. And, as a result, a collective guilt was leveled against all Jews that could only be expiated, and, perhaps, not even then, by conversion to Christianity.
hovercraft
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Howard Dean on Chris Hayes tonight said that for Hillary to go as aggressively after Rubio today at her rally meant that their numbers must show that his numbers were crashing, if he was still way ahead she wouldn’t attack him like that because she would want some of his voters to split their tickets.
Omnes Omnibus
@Jibeaux: I’ve lost my wallet once. In the Gare de l’Est in Paris. It was immediately turned into lost and found – still full of cash.
randy khan
@jl:
There are lots of Mormons in Nevada and Arizona, too. (Not to mention Idaho, which likely is totally out of reach.)
Major Major Major Major
@efgoldman: …Beckett gets drunk and fires everybody, but Zombie Mark Twain says his script is too outlandish.
jl
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Salt Lake City is a beautiful city, things to see and stuff to do. But, yeah, out in the sticks in UT an ID, it can get rather odd. Due to both small isolated communities, and fact that after a few minutes contact, pretty much everyone knows you are not LDS. Except the few and far between non-Mormons, and a Jack Mormon here and there who’ll help you find coffee or a beer.
divF
@Adam L Silverman: Some loose associations for this particular thread.
Bill E Pilgrim
@Omnes Omnibus: Funny I found one there once. In a pay phone.
You’re probably not a Japanese businessman though, just a wild guess, so it wasn’t you.
Gin & Tonic
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: SLC has had a good brewpub scene for over 20 years now.
hovercraft
@Anoniminous:
What happened to all the money he supposedly raised the last couple of months? I know he’s gouging the campaign, he’s barely advertising, so surely they have a shitload of money, no?
Omnes Omnibus
@Bill E Pilgrim: I was a 20 year old college student.
Mary G
@efgoldman: Horrors, no! He would never allow that hair to be dunked. I can just imagine it, three feet long and all on one side of an otherwise completely bald noggin.
Aleta
@dmsilev:
They aren’t as likely to make PAC statements, but individually, they can be counted on.
randy khan
@Anoniminous:
I know someone who works with TV stations on political ads, and she has been saying for a while that Trump isn’t spending much at all on ads, much to the stations’ chagrin. Usually election years are really good for them.
Mark B
@hovercraft: That’s another theory about ditching the ad buys. He’s avoiding spending so he can pocket the cash. It makes sense given what we know of Trump’s history.
jl
@Adam L Silverman: I don’t think Romans were particularly anti-Semitic, as long as they followed the rules. IIRC one of the warring Maccabees invited the Romans for some protection and muscle in their internecine feuds and then unexpected results occurred. Though probably the Romans would found a need to occupy the place sooner or later regardless.
Anoniminous
@efgoldman:
If those guys were running the campaign it would at least be of artistic merit. Assuming it was possible for the egos of Sartre and Breton to fit in the same room at the time.
Adam L Silverman
@cokane: I don’t think there’s enough information to adjudicate this right now. Eichenwald’s conclusion is plausible – the hacked email was doctored and that doctored email appeared only at a Kremlin backed news source. So there’s your Kremlin link. What Josh Marshall and others are arguing is that there’s an equally plausible alternative pathway: alt-right/white supremacist/neo-NAZI twitter and websites, which, apparently, live off of Sputnik News, RT, and other Kremlin backed/based propaganda outlets, including a dedicated set of twitter accounts. Each is possible and plausible. Which one is accurate? That I can’t say. Regardless, it ultimately links back to a Russian government orchestrated or backed hack combined with a Russian government orchestrated or backed doctoring/fabrication within the hacked materials being disseminated to serve the purposes of the Russian government and Putin.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Mnemosyne:
Eh, that’s not how it works. Your faith is demonstrated through works. But it does allow for redemption.
/lapsed American Baptist
Cacti
@Gin & Tonic:
Those classy disciples of Greenwald have apparently taken to tweeting threats against Eichenwald’s wife.
Go figure.
Adam L Silverman
@hovercraft: yep
randy khan
@Anoniminous:
I saw a Trump ad during a baseball playoff game last Thursday, and I was in a very blue part of New Jersey at the time. It was either a national buy or one of the dumbest local ad buys in the history of political advertising.
Cacti
@Adam L Silverman:
It was also pulled down immediately after Eichenwald called shenanigans.
Otherwise, I’ve no doubt it would have remained.
Omnes Omnibus
@Adam L Silverman: I think that it is possible that both theories are true.
jl
Rats jumping back onto the sinking ship ’cause the lifeboats are going down faster?
First Trump de-endorser jumps back to Trump. Handful who bailed Saturday now on sinking lifeboat
https://twitter.com/joshtpm/status/786040704824999936
Edit: someone needs to collect their heartfelt de- and re-endorsements for some hilarious sick humor.
Punchy
@Geoduck: This is very, very true. You couldnt tell SLC from Minny without the accents. Very cosmo with bars and breweries.
Mary G
@randy khan: I saw a Trump here on the coast of California last night, so I imagine it must have been national.
Mnemosyne
@BillinGlendaleCA:
Well, that’s how it’s supposed to work. It usually doesn’t happen that way, especially in fundamentalist circles. If you leave the system open to gaming, people will game it.
Adam L Silverman
@hovercraft: The race, as of what I saw yesterday, was Rubio 44/Murphy 42. That’s within the margin of error. He’s not handled the Trump stuff well.
Anoniminous
@hovercraft:
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
He’s not spending it on his campaign, at least that I can see. And he is in Texas raising money as we type.
amk
@Anoniminous: He is comfortably ahead in OH & FL?
hovercraft
@Mark B:
Now that sounds like the Trump we all know and hate.
Mnemosyne
@Adam L Silverman:
Isn’t both/and also completely plausible? We already know that Putin is financing right-wing groups in Europe and even secessionist groups in Texas. Who’s to say that Breitbart doesn’t have some Russian money in its coffers, wittingly or no?
ETA: Or what Omnes said.
Adam L Silverman
@divF: Waterclosets are important bits of infrastructure to build too!
Omnes Omnibus
@jl: Churchill, when he switched back to the Tories after WWI, said “Anyone can rat, but it takes a certain ingenuity to re-rat.”
FlipYrWhig
@hovercraft: Using it to buy huge portraits of himself again?
Anoniminous
@randy khan:
And as I mentioned above he is pulling previous buys.
Too weird for me
divF
@Adam L Silverman: It’s just a question of priorities.
ETA: From purely a standpoint of personal comfort, I lean towards the Roman. However, the Jewish approach is more appealing from a cultural and community point of view.
Corner Stone
Alright, fine. Can we politely ask Nina Turner to GTFA?
Peale
@BillinGlendaleCA: agreed. You do good words in themselves. Just don’t expect God to let you into heaven because of them. God is perfect and is not going to be fooled by a lack of faith. And don’t even think of trying to take credit for them in this life either…don’t go running around pretending God made you do these things and God blesses you. You don’t speak for him.
-semi-Lutheran
Arclite
Can we stop talking about Mormons for a sec and talk about the child tax credit? It’s amazing she’s announcing this now, when it’s not really anything that will net her any votes. It’s just the right thing to do.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Trentrunner: Politics isn’t a battle to the death, the idea is to persuade people.
Adam L Silverman
@jl: The Romans were tolerant to a point with the Judeans. The point was that they would tolerate the Judeans religion/religious difference provided they didn’t interfere or use it as a rallying point to interfere with administration of the province. The real anti-Semites, though, I think, the better term here would be anti-Judeans were the Greeks within the Empire. They viewed the Judeans as a threat and this carried over to the Hellenized Romans.
The other problem with the Romans, as the Maccabees learned, is that if you invited them in they wouldn’t leave. They were like the old phrase: The problem with Danegeld is once you invite the Dane in and pay, you can’t get rid of them. Same dynamic with the Romans. Once they showed up somewhere, even if you were entering into what you thought was an alliance with them, they never left and always tried to, and usually succeeded in, taking over.
gf120581
@Corner Stone: She’s still around? Does anyone care?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Corner Stone: Lemme guess, she’s very Concerned about Wikileaks.
Corner Stone
@Mark B:
He has proven he will cash a check for 13 cents.
Back when you actually had to take action to endorse and cash a physical check.
Omnes Omnibus
@Mnemosyne: I am guessing that you don’t know a lot about Protestant theology. I’ll leave it at that since I have no interest in a religious argument this evening.
Lizzy L
@Adam L Silverman: In fact, he was a vicious anti-Semite and recommended that Jewish schools and synagogues should be set on fire. Lutherans of all types have spent a lot of time squirming about this. Not that my fellow Catholics do any better, historically speaking. In modern times, the Catholic Church has repudiated supersessionism, (it has been named a heresy) and now speaks respectfully of the Jewish people as “our elder brothers.” I don’t know what the official Lutheran line is, or if there even is one.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Mnemosyne:
Uh, I grew up in a fundamentalist Baptist(American, the folk they left over slavery) church and that’s what we were taught. I left while in college due to the increasing politicization of the message(late 70’s early 80’s).
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Arclite: one of our newer, or newly re-nymmed, trolls is a big bleater about how Dems need to prove themselves to working people. The new tax credit is one more reminder that some people can’t, or won’t, take yes for an answer.
Soylent Green
@schrodinger’s cat:
(Lenny Bruce joke:) We killed Jesus. And when he comes back we’re going to kill him again.
Corner Stone
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I…uhhh..damn. How did you know she was concerned about Wikileaks?
Frankensteinbeck
@Adam L Silverman:
I never laid it out in those terms, but you’re right. There are superficial similarities, but the basic foundations of what morality means, what should motivate people, the purpose of religion (ESPECIALLY that one), and even how logic works are different.
Just from the attitude that none of Judaism’s rules apply to non-Jews you see gulf of separation between Judaism and Christianity.
catclub
@BillinGlendaleCA: yeah, my understanding too.
Salvation is not available by works, you cannot earn it, as it is only given as grace.
The hope is that in gratitude for that salvation, those works of faith will come.
hovercraft
Kellyanne on Anderson tonight, he didn’t let her do her usual gish gallop.
Corner Stone
@gf120581: I am honestly kind of sad about it. She had a great voice.
amk
@hovercraft: eeeww, what a creepy ‘smile’
Punchy
@Anoniminous: can he put the leftover campaign money (hundreds of mills, rite?) into his Foundation, then extract it and place it in a Swiss account? Launder through “charity”?
Adam L Silverman
@Omnes Omnibus: @Mnemosyne: That would not surprise me. From the reporting I’ve seen Podesta has indicated he’s spoken with the FBI and that he told them he believes that Roger Stone had advance knowledge of the hack and/or release. I think this is based on Stone’s tweets back six to eight weeks ago. That’s a node with one link back to Trump/the Trump campaign. The CI guys will work quick, quiet, and thorough, but it is possible that Stone has finally fucked one rat too many. They don’t even have to hit him with an espionage charge – there’s plenty of Federal cyber crime laws they can nail him with.
cokane
@Adam L Silverman: I appreciate it
hovercraft
@Corner Stone:
What did she do now?
Adam L Silverman
@amk: No he’s not.
SoupCatcher
And now it’s up to the bullpen.
catclub
@Soylent Green:
It probably makes no sense to kill witches because they are in league with Satan.
Unless you actually believe there is a Satan and that those witches ARE in league with him, then it makes sense. Likewise if you really believe that “the Jews” killed Jesus – who is God -, then hating them for doing it makes sense. Ignoring, of course, that without the crucifixion there is no salvation.
Dork
@Corner Stone: whats GTFA? Get Tapioca Flour Already? Going To Fry Anchovies?
Mnemosyne
@BillinGlendaleCA:
That may be the disconnect here — I’m talking about what fundamentalism has devolved into after those 30+ years of politicization. I’m also trying to drag some historical arguments into it, but I’m too doped up on cold medicine to really be coherent on that front, so I may have to drop that part.
Basically, my argument is that Donnie is going to be allowed to go in front of his audience, declare himself “saved,” and not change a single goddamned thing about himself, because that’s all you have to do in the current politicized arena of Protestant fundamentalism.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Adam L Silverman:
From what I’ve heard about Roger Stone, he’ll fuck ANYTHING.
Ridnik Chrome
Well, looks like the Cubs are in the middle of yet another post-season meltdown. Why did I think this year was going to be any different?
KS in MA
@Adam L Silverman: Original sin isn’t supposed to make you feel guilty. It’s supposed to make you compassionate.
Lizzy L
@Bill E Pilgrim: It’s sunk in here in my house. I’m drinking a beer to celebrate. And also listening to the baseball game. It’s Giants against Cubs and whichever teams wins, I will be happy. (Looks like it’s going to be the Giants tonight.)
Trump is spending money in Texas? And pulling it from Ohio? Okay, then. *more beer*
hovercraft
@Punchy:
Technically he can keep his money in that account or roll it over into a PAC, and then use that money to cover various “expenses”, that’s what the Queen of the Northwoods did. So he can continue to raise money and just stash it for future use. His moron fans are dumb enough to keep sending a “billionaire” money even after he loses.
Adam L Silverman
@Frankensteinbeck: I decided I’d take my masters in comparative religion out for a walk…
Omnes Omnibus
@Mnemosyne: If you want base your arguments about Protestant theology on whacked out fundamentalists, then you should be okay with others taking Mel Gibson’s dad or Opus Dei as par for the course in Catholicism.
amk
@Adam L Silverman: I know. The only state that the deadbeat could flip at this point is IA. You know, the state he called stupid?
Frankensteinbeck
@catclub:
And to go back to the distinction Adam made, Judaism doesn’t even have a concept of salvation.
Adam L Silverman
@catclub: And this is a major difference/break with Judaism. Judaism is an orthopractic religion. It is all about right behavior, not right belief. Protestantism is much closer to orthodox, with the various Evangelical denominations (Evangelicals, Charismatics, and/or Fundamentalists) pushing orthodoxa more than almost all other forms of Christianity. Catholicism, Anglicanism/Episcopalianism, Methodism, and the Orthodox churches are more of a fusion of orthodoxy and orthopraxis partially rooted in the admonition from the Epistle of James that faith without works is dead.
Anoniminous
@randy khan:
Weird^2
@amk:
No. They are tied in Ohio according to the HuffPo Poll-of-Polls and she is +3 in Florida
BillinGlendaleCA
@Mnemosyne:
I understand that, what I’m saying is that’s part of the perception from the outside, that’s not the faith tradition inside the church.
Adam L Silverman
@cokane: You’re quite welcome.
SoupCatcher
So far, the bullpen has laid an egg on top of Matt Moore’s solid 8-inning performance.
West of the Rockies (been a while)
@Mnemosyne:
Yes, especially when you factor in the predestination crap that some believe in. Ludicrous.
Adam L Silverman
@BillinGlendaleCA: I have seen that article about him and his wife too.
redshirt
@Adam L Silverman: I can’t believe our domestic NAZI’s are taking orders from Russia. Such a thing!
Anoniminous
@Punchy:
I know nothing about current campaign finance regulation.
JR in WV
@Baud:
There are a lot of Pacific Islanders in the LDS, but few African-Americans, because the original founders of the church wouldn’t allow blacks into the church.
The top-most Priest (I forget the title, if I ever knew) had a revelation late in the civil rights movement, and learned that God (or Moroni, I’m pretty much on autopilot here) wanted them to recognize A-A members. But they haven’t really been out recruiting much, while there are missionaries sent to the Pacific island nations. Tough duty, I’m sure, but someone has to do it.
I think Mitt was sent into deepest, darkest France, home of champagne and goat cheeses, to preach the Mormon way of not drinking. Tough duty!!
Cacti
@SoupCatcher:
And just like that, 8 innings of great pitching squandered.
Ridnik Chrome
I don’t believe it. They just came back and tied it up in the ninth. And there’s still nobody out…
Adam L Silverman
@Ridnik Chrome: They just tied it up and an error by SF just put the go ahead and winning run in scoring position.
Adam L Silverman
@KS in MA: I’m Jewish – its not supposed to make me feel anything.
amk
@Anoniminous: per drew linzer, she is ahead in FL by 2.8% and ahead in OH by 0.4%. In any case, he is not ‘comfortably ahead’ in either of these states.
Lizzy L
Whoa, I spoke too soon! 5-5! (I’m a Giants fan, but I lived five years in Chicago at an important time, and I love the Cubbies.) OMG, we’re going to 13 innings again.
Donald Trump hates the Cubs, of course, because they’re losers.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@ RonJohnsonWI
Senator Feingold’s 34-year political career is the same age as @ kenbone18 — but not nearly as inspiring. #WISen #KenBone
allowing that Johnson’s a moron… what was so “inspiring” about this guy? he seemed pleasant enough, and I guess it’s nice that a guy who works for the extraction industry mentioned the environment, but…
Anoniminous
@Lizzy L:
Raising money in Texas. To not spend it in Ohio and Florida.
CaseyL
The thing about Christianity that has always bugged me is how it pushes evangelism and conversion. My attitude toward religion is basically, believe what you want but don’t push it on anyone else; your right to worship as you please does not include a right to insist everyone else worship what you do, in the same way you do.
But Christianity is dedicated to converting anyone it can get its hands on. When the Romans made Christianity their state religion, they melded that with their expansionist militaristic ethos and came up with the idea of forcibly converting people – a purely political act, which the Church rationalized as “saving people despite themselves.” So much of what’s horrible in the world comes from the idea that you can and should force religion on people. I’m pretty sure the concept of coercively expansionist ideologies came out of that as well – that is, not only should you conquer whatever you can (which is as old as humanity) but you should also force the conquered to believe in what you believe, whether that belief system is religious or ideological.
If your religion is so terrific that everyone should join it, we’ll know by the kind of life you live, by the kind of society you create. If you have to convert everyone by the sword, then maybe your religion isn’t so terrific.
jl
@Adam L Silverman: but… but… it’s and even year. Can’t happen. It just can’t. Cubs will choke,you watch.
It’s an even year, even year, even year…
BillinGlendaleCA
@redshirt: It’s just the Hitler-Stalin pact of the 21st century.
Adam L Silverman
@Frankensteinbeck: Yep, you get one shot and that’s it. The whole point behind Tikkun Olam/Repairing the World. You’re supposed to make the most out of your life, not by fixing everything, but by doing enough good as to fix a bit of it. Doing so is a sign of a life well lived.
redshirt
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Ken Bone? It’s internet sarcastic mockery.
hovercraft
@amk:
Do you mean to say he lying? But he never lies, everybody else around him lies about him, but honest Don never lies.
Lizzy L
Cubs ahead!!
redshirt
@Lizzy L: Someone was hating on the Patriots because of Trump, and for good reason.
But if you agree, share your hate for the Cubs ownership, who are far worse.
different-church-lady
@Ridnik Chrome: That’s why you play all 60.
BillinGlendaleCA
@JR in WV:
That’s technically not true. Blacks could be members of the church, BUT could not be part of the priesthood(women still cannot be part of the priesthood). You are correct that the prophet had a revelation in 1978 and Blacks were allowed in the priesthood.
randy khan
@Lizzy L:
When I was in Sunday school back in the ’70s, we were taught that Jews could go to heaven under certain circumstances, as could other Christians. That was at an LCA (now ELCA) church, although I can’t say that it was the official Lutheran position. A Missouri Synod church would have a much different point of view – they’re not sure that ELCA Lutherans can go to to heaven, let alone Catholics.
Also, the ELCA specifically repudiated Luther’s anti-Semitism in the 1990s.
jl
@CaseyL: Many religions have had evangelism and conversion fever in the past. I think even Judaism at one time. But the circumcision thing was a problem. So they set up a gentile auxiliary, of sorts, that was quite popular in the Mideast for a while. That was a long time ago. Romans got pissed with their ingratitude for all they had done for them, and got intolerant, IIRC.
Miss Bianca
@Adam L Silverman:
That’s always been my understanding of how Anglicanism worked. You couldn’t have one without the other. I remember my confirmation teacher using the analogy of having either a car or a can of gasoline – how neither one on its own was going to get you very far. (I’m not sure how doctrinally sound that analogy is, but I still remember it forty years later).
redshirt
Are Mormons still converting dead people? That seemed a specific concern at one of my uncle’s funerals.
Redleg
It would be nice if this Mormons for Hillary group was large enough to win Utah’s electoral votes for Hillary. We can use whatever help we can get to keep Trump out of the White House.
craigie
@Omnes Omnibus:
My wife left her purse in the women’s room at Logan airport. She didn’t realize it until an hour later. When we got back to the airport, expecting to be laughed at, it was in the Lost and Found, completely intact – including a lot of jewelry she had brought to wear to a wedding the next day.
Adam L Silverman
@redshirt: They used to be tightly tied to Islamic extremists because both groups hated Jews. Aryan Nations and a number of other white supremacists/neo-NAZIs/Christian Identity adherents used to all link to a website run by an ex-pat Algerian military officer who fled to Norway seeking asylum from persecution for his religious beliefs and put up this huge Islamic extremist site that had just about every anti-Semitic conspiracy theory, meme, trope, idea, image, etc on it. I don’t think the site still exists.
Cacti
@BillinGlendaleCA:
Also not entirely on the mark. Under Joseph Smith, there was a free black man named Elijah Abel who was a Mormon elder and priesthood holder. It was Brigham Young, the second prophet of the church that instituted the one drop rule with respect to the Mormon priesthood, which remained in place for more than 100 years.
Spencer W. Kimball was the Mormon prophet who made the change.
Peale
@randy khan: yep. Missouri Synod teaching is that while it’s nice that you ELCA folks think nice things, your ecumenicalism pretty much damns you. Heaven is for Missouri Synod folks, thank you very much. I’m sure it’s full of back stabbing dour angels who rat to district any youth pastor who organizes fellowship volleyball games with methodists. At least that’s the message I got there.
Adam L Silverman
@jl: Not in Judaism. We just started 5777. I think its the year of the knish. Might be kreplach. Definitely not koogle – noodle or potato.
Omnes Omnibus
@randy khan: It is my understanding that all Lutheran synods have repudiated Luther’s anti-Antisemitism. Missouri Synod formally did it in 1983.
Adam L Silverman
@jl: Judaism jettisoned it as a protective measurement once Christianity became the religion of the Roman Empire. The idea was to not present itself as a threat to the dominant religion that had now merged with the secular authorities. Religion on religion dispute is one thing. Religion on religion that is the state dispute is quite another.
Villago Delenda Est
@amk: Not really. Greenwald has some shaky history when it comes to making kissy-kissy with antisemites.
Adam L Silverman
Chicago wins!
Cacti
@Villago Delenda Est:
Assange too.
Adam L Silverman
@Villago Delenda Est: Which is kind of strange given Greenwald’s religious background – regardless of his current practice or lack thereof.
Punchy
CUBS WIN! CUBS WIN! CUBS WIN!
BillinGlendaleCA
@redshirt: Baptisms for the dead are one of the functions of Mormon temples.
jenn
Today’s GOP:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/09/30/gop-blocks-probes-into-trump-russia-ties
Scamp Dog
@Lizzy L: I’m a lapsed Lutheran (now Unitarian), so I don’t have any current knowledge (beyond attending Christmas services with my brother), but I don’t recall ever hearing anything anti-Semitic coming from a Lutheran pulpit. Now of course as a small child I’m sure I wasn’t paying a bit of attention, but when I was an adult and still attending (early to mid-eighties) there was none. They didn’t talk much, if at all, about Luther’s anti-Semitism, to be sure, but they’re no longer practicing it.
amk
have no idea who he is dissing here.
Omnes Omnibus
@Scamp Dog: I would posit that no mainline Protestant church countenances anti-Semitism anymore.
FlipYrWhig
@Villago Delenda Est: If Glenn Greenwald heard about a guy who defended the free speech rights of Nazis and then played footsie with the Civil Rights Act-opposing Paul family and a hacker who high-tailed it to authoritarian Russia, his guilt by association radar would never stop pinging.
Lizzy L
@Scamp Dog: Oh, I’m sure contemporary Lutherans have jettisoned anti-Semitism. Didn’t mean to suggest otherwise.
CUBS!!!!
Dog Dawg Damn
Rachel is digging into strange Pence – Trump relationship. It truly is bizarre that he’s on the ticket as Trump trashes all his former colleagues and friends.
She’s reporting multiple fundraisers cancelled as donors are pulling out of the campaign.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Dog Dawg Damn: as far as the Beltway establishment is concerned, I think Paul Ryan will suffer from all this about as much as St McCain did from Palin et al, but Mike Pence will be taking over from Huckabee selling reverse mortgages and cinnamon cures
Eric U.
I liked living in Utah, although the feeling of being an outsider is hard to escape. The people are really nice. Too bad they vote for Republicans.
Lizzy L
: @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Well, he couldn’t win an election for dogcatcher in his home state, They really don’t like him there. I hope you are right. He’s a horrible man. He only looks good if Trump is in the room.
amk
hitler bunker rant, here we come
Punchy
@Dog Dawg Damn: This fucks all the downticket Senate and House races in dire need of that filthy lucre, eh? Or will the Kochs just write 300-odd $1 million dollar checks to each R in a race?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Trump
redshirt
@amk: Trump.
Dog Dawg Damn
@Punchy: It will most likely affect them all. It’s an entangled eco-system of support, and he’s throwing bombs inside the tent.
redshirt
@Dog Dawg Damn: Gads, is this really happening? The destruction of the GOP?
JR in WV
@Mary G:
Scalzi can really twist a sentence with the best of them. That’s a pretty good description of Trump, isn’t it?
Mary, thanks for posting this!!
ETA fix speling
amk
@redshirt: rock the vote… on nov 28th.
divF
@Scamp Dog:
While we’re on the subject, is there such a thing as a lapsed Unitarian ?
seaboogie
@? Martin: @Trentrunner:
Even in a pretty insular religious community, change does begin to happen, and I think it should be embraced. We should welcome them in the spirit of “Love trumps hate”.
Lizzy L
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Ah, fuck. Yeah, Trump.
GregB
Red Hats are the new Brown Shirts.
redshirt
@seaboogie: Agreed. If you’re willing to laugh off Trump, join us. He’s a clown. A scary clown lurking in the woods just outside the Junior High.
joel hanes
@CaseyL:
it pushes evangelism and conversion
You should hang out more with Congregationalists and less with evangelicals.
BillinGlendaleCA
@redshirt: Don’t worry, they’ll be back in 2018.
hovercraft
So how many democrats will respond to Trump’s attacks on Clinton by staying home? Last time I checked in 2012 there were many democrats who were not happy with Obama but they came out because of the GOP obstruction, and the birther crap, and the attempts at voter suppression. I think that if it was only Hillary out there trying to get out the vote, it may be a winning strategy but with the entire democratic party all on deck rowing together, I doubt it can work.
Lizzy L
@hovercraft: It’s a fair question. I think having the President and Michelle Obama and Bill and Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren all out there will make a big difference. Hillary’s not out there having to respond to these attacks alone. Also, Trump is not going to be silent as his numbers drop. He’s going to continue to say ugly, insane things, which will rile the Democratic base.
Origuy
A childhood friend of mine was and is a Mormon, although I think he disbelieves a lot of the BOM. He was a professor of theatre at BYU and still writes plays. Until I started following him on Facebook I didn’t know that there was such a thing as Mormon theatre. Anyway, he is a Democrat and writes a blog called Mormon Iconoclast. Here’s his latest entry on the election.
redshirt
@Lizzy L: We have so many advantages and they have so many disadvantages, it’s a true wonder.
Mnemosyne
I wandered off to watch Joe Dante on “Trailers From Hell.” Here’s his bit on the classic Mario Bava giallo, Blood and Black Lace.
Mary G
@hovercraft: I think the attacks on Bill Clinton will backfire. Even if he was a sexual harasser or rapist, how is that Hillary’s fault? Also, too, those accusations are old. If a woman was accusing him of bad behavior last week, I’d be more worried.
amk
@hovercraft: the more vile the dick gets, the more energized the dem base will be. the surrogates are there to get the icing, flip the senate and the house.
Doug R
@amk: Assange and his buds have backed right wing fringe parties. And Putin’s kgb likes supprting right wing parties as well.
JR in WV
@schrodinger’s cat:
Adam has provided a theological and historical basis from the founding of the various early Christianities, but more recently it goes back to a number of accusations, the major being that the Jews were Christ Killers, that the Romans putting Jesus the Rabbi on the Roman execution device were acting for the politicians of the Jewish community, who wanted things quiet and this rabbi was causing trouble.
Then there was a forged document called “The Protocols of Zion” IIRC, probably first published in Tsarist Russia, to justify pogroms against the Jewish communities, the confiscation of their property, the murder of their community leaders, etc. I’m not sure if this was more for financial benefit or just a power equation in the rural villages of Russia, which were way behind even Europe culturally.
Various versions of this document make different claims involving blood sacrifice, well poisoning, plague spreading, etc. This was all before any clues about what actually causes diseases, how they spread, it was all folklore and most of that was full of fear and hate.
Remember, this was a culture that burned old widow ladies as witches, and tortured people into confessing that they were married to Satan and rode broomsticks to revels with demons. Torquemada and the Spanish Inquisition, which spread all over Europe, with public auto de fe’ celebratory executions of those tortured into confessing their non-Catholicism. Burned at the stake.
There were whole cultures in Europe that varied in their religion, which were erased, all killed, the holy books burned. They often would force the walled city open, force the people into their church, close the doors, and burn the building and people to the ground. Cathars were eliminated in the Albigensian crusade in southern France and NW italy in the 12th-14th centuries.
I think but am not sure that anti-semitic activity increased after the false-Christians were all killed off.
So the possibility that Jews were evil was pretty normal at that time. Everyone different was evil, and should be killed. Sort of early Trumpism.
Then the Nazis adopted their final solution, and here we are.
Adam – if I’ve wandered off the track of reality here, please correct this. I’m operating on things I learned 50 years ago, mostly. I revisited the Albigensian crusade a little before we traveled there, not too much – it’s so horrible, I didn’t want to know about every tragedy wherever we went.
Omnes Omnibus
@Mary G: In Trump-world, HRC is inseparable from Bill. Women are appendages or accessories – they have no agency. Hillary, therefore, must be a mere way for Bill to get a third term.*
*For mentally climbing inside that view, I need a shower. I’ll be back.
amk
billy fucking shrub is out, per wsj.
It’ll be fun to watch alt-reichs rooting for a bush klanistah.
Lizzy L
Would love to hang out some more, but after staying up for the end of the game last night, I’m beat. Going to bed. Sleep well, all.
redshirt
@Omnes Omnibus: As a Judge don’t you have to do that all the time?
redshirt
@Lizzy L: Congrats on your Cubs!
hovercraft
@Lizzy L:
@Mary G: @amk:
Thanks, that’s my take. I was just watching CNN, and they say that his campaign has decided that they can’t get suburban white women back, so they want to disgust them and the millennials who don’t trust Hillary to just stay home, thereby giving them an electorate that looks more like a midterm, and win. They think it’s their only shot at winning, and while they’re at it try to fulfill Bannon’s dream of burning down the GOP and rebuilding it as a white supremacist party.
Peale
@Doug R: I am starting to feel that we were had by Wikileaks from the beginning. They took advantage of the liberals wh wanted truth about the war, but were probably lined up to support Putin early on.
JR in WV
@JR in WV:
Also, the Protocols of Zion, supposedly Jewish documents probably
composedforged by agents of the Tsarist secret police, spread from Russia across Europe into what eventually became Germany. So it was everywhere, not just in Russia. I ran out of edit time to add this.Omnes Omnibus
@redshirt: I spent some time as an Administrative Law Judge, but the Scotty Walker admin ended that.
redshirt
@hovercraft: Burn it all down and rule the ashes IS a strategy, I suppose.
Anne Laurie
@randy khan:
People who do this stuff for a living say that Trump isn’t interested in moving votes with his ads as much as seeing them himself — or at least knowing they’re being seen by those he considers “important”. Thus, (relatively) big buys in states like NY & California that he can’t win, instead of in boring dull Rust Belt swing states. And in a corollary, he’s said to be spending particularly big in his former opponents’ states: TX (Repub safe state), WI (should’ve been), FL (Rubio *and* Jeb), and of course, Christie’s New Jersey.
Villago Delenda Est
@amk: Dang, it’s weeks early for that!
Omnes Omnibus
@Anne Laurie:
Should have been what?
Peale
@Omnes Omnibus: walker dropped out. He’s spending in WI to remind Walker that he drove him from the race.
hovercraft
@redshirt:
Well what do spoiled brats do when they don’t get their own way, they break shit and throw tantrums. So that’s what he’s decided to do, and since there are no adults in his campaign that’s what they’ll do. They also believe that since the NBC/Wall St poll showed them getting back a lot of their republican support after the debate, that they can at least get back to being competitive even if they can’t overtake her.
Scamp Dog
@Lizzy L: I wasn’t thinking you had, I just got to thinking about it, and searched my memory for a bit. I could think of a few people who had made those kinds of remarks, but never from anyone with an official connection.
So anyway, it’s mostly a bit of reminiscing. And it’s good to realize things some get better, even if it’s slow and inconsistent.
JR in WV
@Omnes Omnibus:
You know, people talk about how rude the French are, especially in Paris. I think these are people who are themselves rude, and so get treated badly everywhere they go if people don’t know they are important rich people who you need to be especially kind to. Like Trump.
We had a wonderful time in France and Spain. In rural France, wife once used her high school French to say pardon me to three old women blocking the sidewalk, and they immediately landed on her for not following formalities they believed they deserved, they she may have known 40 years ago, but probably not.
Otherwise everyone was as helpful as they could be, perhaps because we were pathetic and helpless. I used an android tablet and google translate when there was nothing else to do, and it fascinated people who may have been less understanding otherwise.
But I love France in general, and was contemplating moving there if Trump won. Spain too!! Nice people, great food. I learned quickly that in both countries, the word for “BAR” was BAR, and they had food as good as fancy restaurants here.
Vhh
@? Martin: recent polling shows the gender gap to be more like 10-15%.
Omnes Omnibus
@Peale: Perhaps. I just saw this phrasing “WI (should’ve been)” following this “TX (Repub safe state).” The wording raises questions.
JR in WV
@BillinGlendaleCA:
Wife was raised American Baptist, so I learned a little about it. Formed from a schism with what became the Southern Baptists, who believed that slavery was ordained by God and necessary for being a Bible believing Christian. The American Baptists became abolitionists shortly after the schism.
I wouldn’t be surprised if works are far more important to American Baptists than to Southern Baptists, who seem to always make the immoral choice about any spiritual matter. Just look at them and how they act, hateful towards everyone who isn’t a Southern Baptist, competing to see which congregation can build the bigger church, etc, etc.
Omnes Omnibus
@JR in WV: If you think of Paris as New York, the brusque and hurried attitude makes sense. Most people’s experience of France is Paris. Now imagine gong to New York if the only language you speak is Spanish. You will be, by and large, fucked. If you accepted that as part of the adventure you are okay. If not, you are kind of screwed.
Anne Laurie
@Frankensteinbeck:
That’s what I’ve seen anthropologists call the root of anti-Semitism: Judaism assumes, as a ‘chosen people’, its members will always be one group & probably a minority group among many. Pauline Christianity assumes that “anybody” can become a true member, and the unspoken cognate is that everybody should become a member, eventually. Or else. It’s sociologically efficient — don’t you want to be SAVED, “my brother”? What, you don’t want to be my brother? — then how am I ever to TRUST you?!?
MisterForkbeard
@hovercraft: Rebuilding it as an overtly white supremacist party, you mean. Sigh.
Anne Laurie
@Omnes Omnibus: My understanding was that WI was considered “safe” for the GOP because Walker’s minions were so efficient at keeping Those People in Milwaukee from voting. I’m willing to be disabused of that notion, if it’s wrong.
Omnes Omnibus
@Anne Laurie: While we are on the religion thing – may I suggest that you as a former Catholic, now Animist*, do not understand Protestants. Please do not talk about them.
*It is my understanding I have correctly identified your views. If I am wrong, I am sorry,
Omnes Omnibus
@Anne Laurie: You think WI may go Trump? Feh.
BCHS Class of 1980
@efgoldman: I’m just looking forward to when BYU comes to Morgantown for football. The culture shock for the Utahns should be off the charts.
JR in WV
@West of the Rockies (been a while):
I once, first semester at college, invited a pretty girl to go to a movie. I was fresh out of High School and into college during a summer session, kind of slide into things early, small numbers of classes and people on campus, get familiar with the campus and how things worked 2 months ahead of the rest of the incoming freshman class.
Now I was raised first in Presbyterian, not much stuck, but I did get a bible to read myself for showing up every time my mom and dad showed up. Sunday school with kids that years later I would be in High School with. Then the folks joined up with friends and relatives to form a Unitarian-Universalist Fellowship, which was a church too small to hire a minister, and so the grown ups took turns reading articles and sermons written by highly regarded scholars in the U-U church hierarchy.
But I was surrounded by Baptists in grade school, met some catholic kids in Jr High, finally realized that those kids were Jewish. But I was in a daze about religion, having read the Presbyterian bible cover to cover a couple times, I was 14 and trying to merge all the different theologies of these churches based upon the same document, containing the revealed works of the Lord and men who were at least inspired to write what they wrote by the Lord’s specific direction and will.
So I took this nice, bright, interesting girl to the movies, and we talked about religion – which we were both a little interested in. Me from the hoover up all you can about all the religions and try to make sense of the variations. Her from the weekly preaching from the pulpit of her church, in which she believed implicitly.
And what she believed in was predestination – God’s will was so strong that everything that happened in the world was ordained by his will. Every sparrow that fell did fall on God’s watch. Now, I was 17, and she was both smart and cute, but I was deciding rapidly that she was crazy.
I had questions about predestination, with examples, what if… and she had answers to any question I put out. Mostly memorized I suppose. I didn’t want her to be crazy, because that would make getting close to her difficult…. but that looked foreordained nutz. She may have been Lutheran, or Calvinist or some kind, I think both of them had a streak of predestination in their theology. Why not?
So I never bought enough predestined theology to understand it enough to argue about it. I did learn enough about physics and math to see that the world probably didn’t need visible femtosecond intervention by the Creator, so he could actually work on colliding galaxies and such, if he was active and interested.
The big bang theory doesn’t require a creator, actually, and so I tended to slide into don’t care about it – if he needs me to care, all he has to do is ask. In the meantime, just be good to people, do a good job, don’t worry, be happy.
I’m still interested in the psychology of theology, the history of how groups got to where they are today, because that helps understand and work with people with very different belief structures and cultural sets. That helped me manage big bunches of people with a wide variety of religions at work, much later on.
I better stop now. It’s interesting stuff. Later on the chemicals that alter time and space and your sensorium made it a little more real again, but that was, again, 40 years ago. You can’t do much of that and study computer science seriously. You loose the handle on pointers, you need to do 5th semester over to get pointers back. Or something.
gex
Just so we’re all fucking clear, they battled against my marriage rights until after Kate died. Mostly, based on their own memos, to win over other Christians to support Mitt’s campaign. And Mitt, though he signed MAs marriage law, was still as opposed to gays as every other Republican.
They stopped being actively virulently anti-gay when it started hurting them. This is praiseworthy behavior for them apparently.
carame
@Adam L Silverman: Too bad he failed. Shady motives notwithstanding, the world would be a better place if Evangelicals weren’t so obsessed with their interpretation of the Old Testement.
Barry
@Anoniminous: “Trump is reported to be pulling ad money from Florida, Ohio, North Carolina, Iowa, Colorado, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania, and Maine. He simply HAS to have Florida and Ohio to win so pulling ads there to buy in a state where he is comfortably ahead doesn’t make any sense.”
Unless the money is being laundered and skimmed.
sam
Can I just say, on a more general level, how much I appreciate the style of all of Hillary’s ads? I absolutely love the text captioning of peoples’ words. I honestly don’t know if it was purely a style choice made for emphasis, but as someone who can’t turn up the sound on my computer at work, I enjoy being able to watch these ads and understand them without hearing the sound.
And when I was watching this one today and appreciating that feature, I realized that my able-bodied self was probably the least-important constituency for a built-in, beautifully styled, closed captioned ad, and remembered just how much outreach (including specific ads with and for folks with hearing impairments) her team has being doing with people with disabilities.
I mean it’s not just the basic “sure we’ll throw in some closed captioning at the bottom”, but making a genuine effort at BEAUTIFUL inclusion.
InternetDragons
Good ad, but be careful. The rather cloyingly sweet post accompanying it is very blind to the realities of the LDS church. If you chatted with any of those nice ladies about the rights of LGBT people, for example, or the proper role of women in the family, many of you would be left sickened.
Feel free to check out the suicide rates for young LDS LGBT people (five in just one week this last summer, for example) and the very recent and ongoing incidents of young LDS LGBT people being subjected to conditions that can only be described as torture in order to “cure” them. All done by their “loving” families. Mormons want you to idealize them – but don’t ask too many questions or look too closely at the reality underneath it all. AL fell neatly into their trap.
I am all in favor of temporary alliances in order to push change forward even if those alliances are with people I profoundly disagree with on other issues. But don’t go all gooey and idealistic over what the LDS church stands for. It – and most likely these women – are not your friends, and they most certainly don’t represent an ideal for “people of faith” to live up to.