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Meanwhile over at truth Social, the former president is busy confessing to crimes.

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Ah, the different things are different argument.

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Whatever happens next week, the fight doesn’t end.

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You are here: Home / Open Threads / What was THAT like?

What was THAT like?

by Betty Cracker|  October 14, 201612:02 pm| 118 Comments

This post is in: Open Threads, Politics, Assholes

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Clinton describes to Ellen what it was like to debate a rancid slab of toupeed spam that was all hopped up on wounded vanity:

She might want to request a shark cage for the final debate.

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Previous Post: « “You Have to Start with the Truth”
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Reader Interactions

118Comments

  1. 1.

    Russ

    October 14, 2016 at 12:05 pm

    Michelle, was exactly right.

    “We are drowning in it.”

  2. 2.

    Miss Bianca

    October 14, 2016 at 12:09 pm

    So, I’m going off hunting tomorrow. Seems like every week now lately that I’ve been heading off into the Great Outdoors, some news dump on Friday has been convulsing the Intertubes when I come back. What’s it going to be this weekend, I wonder? Trump ringing the Ni-CLANG! bell? The Ecuadoreans finally getting tired of Julian Assange and tossing him and ratty old bathrobe and blankie out onto the streets of London? Killer clowns attacking journalists at a Trump rally?

  3. 3.

    Tom Levenson

    October 14, 2016 at 12:12 pm

    Ellen’s wrong at 4:08. It isn’t like debating a teenager. I live with a 16 y.o., who is rigorous, fact obsessed and, while annoying as hell at times and on certain matters, doesn’t spew untruth as his default position. His friends are similar. Trump is a sociopath; he’s not merely too “x” to know better.

  4. 4.

    Elizabelle

    October 14, 2016 at 12:12 pm

    I’m sad that the GOP has a sexual assailant on their ticket, so they are sliming Bill Clinton as hard as they can. Again, no concept of “consent.”

    I think we should have Bill Clinton’s back a bit more, rather than just throw him under the bus. Yes, a lot of his legislation and actions do not hold up under scrutiny 20 years out (bye bye Glass-Steagall, with nothing to replace, DOMA, etc), but he got a lot right too.

    There is no equivalence between Bill Clinton and Trump on anything but being a horndog. And one of those two is an actual serial assaulter. You know Ken Starr would have gone to town if he could have proven Bill Clinton had non-consensual sex.

    It’s so sad. How do you think Hillary feels about this? He’s her husband. He’s a grandfather.

    The Republicans are such fucking scum. They just are. And so is cable TV for making everything into “let’s talk about Republicans ALL DAY long”, with Democrats getting occasional walk-ons when they have done something too newsworthy to be ignored.

  5. 5.

    redshirt

    October 14, 2016 at 12:14 pm

    @Russ: Madge was right decades ago: We’re soaking in it.

  6. 6.

    Elizabelle

    October 14, 2016 at 12:14 pm

    @Miss Bianca: Do you actually shoot? What is the prey?

    Enjoy the great outdoors. Colorado must be spectacular right now.

  7. 7.

    Knight of Nothing

    October 14, 2016 at 12:14 pm

    I ask in all seriousness: is there any point to having a third debate? Clinton is 2-0 so far, and neither were even close because Trump wasn’t debating. He knows nothing and it is blatantly obvious. When you can make Mike effing Pence look erudite by comparison, you have a big problem.

    If it happens, the third debate will be more degrading than the first two combined; Trump, an entitled asshole of the highest order, will be trying to ritually dominate and humiliate a woman simply for having the audacity to be far above his station in every conceivable way. I am not looking forward to it at all. I will watch only to bear witness.

  8. 8.

    DCrefugee

    October 14, 2016 at 12:14 pm

    @Tom Levenson:

    Ellen’s wrong at 4:08. It isn’t like debating a teenager.

    Yeah, this is a disservice to teenagers…

  9. 9.

    The Sheriff's A Ni-

    October 14, 2016 at 12:14 pm

    Restraining order.

  10. 10.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    October 14, 2016 at 12:15 pm

    @Miss Bianca: Have fun! Whichever flight you’re hanging with on whoever you’re taking out.

    ETA: I’m leaving that worded the way I wrote it because I expect it will make people scratch their heads, even as we wouldn’t think twice about pronouns that way in this context (obviously).

  11. 11.

    bemused

    October 14, 2016 at 12:15 pm

    Hillary seems to feel more relaxed on a tv show format like the Ellen Show and it’s easier to see her humor and warmth.

  12. 12.

    Betty Cracker

    October 14, 2016 at 12:15 pm

    @Tom Levenson: As the parent of a teenager as well, I had the exact same thought. Ellen underestimates da yoots!

  13. 13.

    Miss Bianca

    October 14, 2016 at 12:17 pm

    @Elizabelle: Foxhunting (which means coyotes and hares where we are). I don’t carry the pistol.

    Altho’ I am doing some target-practice shooting. I’d love to go out after some elk one of these years!

  14. 14.

    Miss Bianca

    October 14, 2016 at 12:19 pm

    @a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): Thank you! Hoping for an awesome run or two. Still a bit warm for good scent, but you never know – we might scare something up!

  15. 15.

    germy

    October 14, 2016 at 12:21 pm

    In an appearance Friday on Fox News, Republican vice presidential candidate Mike Pence blamed the news media for what he characterized as an obsession with “unsubstantiated” claims by Trump’s accusers.

    “There will be more evidence coming out” to prove Trump’s innocence, Pence said. Asked what evidence he was talking about, he said, “The campaign is working on bringing that information out.” He did not elaborate.

    AP

  16. 16.

    Starfish

    October 14, 2016 at 12:22 pm

    @Tom Levenson: I wonder where the 16.y.o. in your house got that from.

  17. 17.

    sukabi

    October 14, 2016 at 12:25 pm

    @Tom Levenson: teens may be hormonally cray, but they aren’t as immune to facts as drumpf… debating him would be like debating a nonsense lie generator.

  18. 18.

    Frankensteinbeck

    October 14, 2016 at 12:27 pm

    @Knight of Nothing:
    With a moderator who has declared that he thinks Trump is a brilliant debater and considers fact checking a violation of his duty.

  19. 19.

    Punchy

    October 14, 2016 at 12:29 pm

    @germy: Ah…..evidence something didnt happen. Pence is going to finally prove the negative! Huzzah!

  20. 20.

    Percysowner

    October 14, 2016 at 12:29 pm

    Because we can all use some levity Kids describing Republicans and Democrats.

  21. 21.

    PPCLI

    October 14, 2016 at 12:29 pm

    @germy: Remember when Melania’s path to citizenship was at issue, and a letter was released from some agent that was supposed to be a defence, but actually dug them in deeper (apparently indicating that Melania got her green card by an earlier marriage, which could easily have been a fraudulent immigration marriage). We got that same “we will release this information at the appropriate time and venue” line. A month later we got a letter from Trump’s lawyer with the standard boilerplate that Melania obeyed all the laws of the country. No actual documents.

    “we’ll release it at the appropriate time” is clearly Trump-speak for “I got nothing but I’m going to pretend like I do.”

  22. 22.

    MattF

    October 14, 2016 at 12:29 pm

    @DCrefugee: More like debating with a 3-year old.

  23. 23.

    sukabi

    October 14, 2016 at 12:33 pm

    @germy: they’ll produce it with Michelle’s whitey tape, proof of Baraks birth certificate forgery, drumpfs tax returns and proof he actually gave anythiing to charity that he’s claimed.

  24. 24.

    Brachiator

    October 14, 2016 at 12:33 pm

    @Elizabelle:

    I think we should have Bill Clinton’s back a bit more, rather than just throw him under the bus.

    Bill Clinton is not running for president. I may not want to throw him under the bus, but I am not going to buy into any aspect of the Trump tactic of trying to bring up Bill’s past and character in order to reflect on or criticize Hillary.

  25. 25.

    Knight of Nothing

    October 14, 2016 at 12:33 pm

    @Frankensteinbeck: Exactly! Trump’s debate shtick is a combination of angry old white guy insult comedy, poetry slam paranoia, and a gorilla beating his own chest. (Oh, and cocaine.) This is not debating.

    And Chris Wallace is one of Fox News’s best.

  26. 26.

    Matt McIrvin

    October 14, 2016 at 12:35 pm

    @Elizabelle: The thing is, it’s not impossible that Bill Clinton did actually rape Juanita Broaddrick in 1978, or do something that we’d call rape today even if nobody would then. It’s the one accusation where there’s a plausible case for something beyond mere skeevy philandering, though no legally usable proof. We’re probably never going to know. Dismissing it out of hand makes us look hypocritical.

    The attempts to tie Hillary to it, claim she harassed or tried to harm these women, etc. are laughably tenuous, of course. But I don’t feel entirely comfortable saying it never happened. And if it did happen, defending him (as opposed to Hillary) is sort of splitting hairs, even if Trump’s history of sexual assault is a thousand times worse.

  27. 27.

    sukabi

    October 14, 2016 at 12:36 pm

    @Knight of Nothing: you forgot the “sad” after declaring Wallace FOX best.

  28. 28.

    jl

    October 14, 2016 at 12:37 pm

    Pence has promised that by the of today, this slander will all be revealed as a vile conspiracy. Thank goodness I am busy all day, so I will be distracted and won’t be waiting breathlessly for the whole anti-Trump smear campaign to be revealed.

    Not sure if what Pence will reveal will be the international media-HRC-banker-Mexican billionaire-Jewish-no scratch that… Arab Mexican billionaire-liberal-PC.. aw snap! I lost my train of thought.

  29. 29.

    waysel

    October 14, 2016 at 12:37 pm

    @Punchy: Easy. Trump tower security cam footage,for a minute and a half, showing anonymous passers by. Date and time in lower left corner, written in that MS fingerpaint program, like Betty Cracker uses. Same deal with empty interior shot of room where Trump forced himself on the woman. See, nothing happened. Also, just ask Hannity. He was there when it all didn’t happen.

  30. 30.

    hovercraft

    October 14, 2016 at 12:38 pm

    @Elizabelle: @Elizabelle:
    The Rush diatribe about the “lefts” tolerating any sexual activity as long as there is “consent”, is still stunning to me. How does a man reach his age and not understand that the term “consenting adults” is a literal term. Yes I get to do anything I want with whomever I want, as long as we are both or all above the age of “consent”, this is not a complicated thing. Four I assume rational women have “consented” to become Mrs Rush, a decision I don’t understand, a decision that is gross to me, but one that they are free to make, why can he not give the rest of us that same autonomy over how we live our lives?

  31. 31.

    Calouste

    October 14, 2016 at 12:38 pm

    A shark cage might not be enough.

  32. 32.

    Knight of Nothing

    October 14, 2016 at 12:39 pm

    @sukabi: Right! It is definitely implied. I almost ended with “let that sink in,” but that phrase has been working so hard in the last six months, I thought I’d give it the day off.

  33. 33.

    sukabi

    October 14, 2016 at 12:42 pm

    @jl: right, all those recordings of drumpf being a vile, predatory piece of crap, bragging about sexual assault, are a vicious slander attack…..by Donald Trump.

  34. 34.

    Rob in CT

    October 14, 2016 at 12:42 pm

    @hovercraft:

    That bit from Rush is so, so revealing. The Dittoheads will nod along, but basically anyone else should be able to see the problem.

  35. 35.

    waysel

    October 14, 2016 at 12:43 pm

    @Matt McIrvin: For us in the trenches, I would like to see it always mentioned that Ken Starr, in the Bill C witch hunt, considered the evidence so iffy that even HE was not willing to try to use it against Bill. Wouldn’t make a good bumper sticker, though.

  36. 36.

    Villago Delenda Est

    October 14, 2016 at 12:43 pm

    @germy: Gosh, you’ve got Drumpf on tape saying that he assaults women, and that is “unsubstantiated”.

    It’s amazing Pence can remember to breathe, even his lizard brain is damaged.

  37. 37.

    trollhattan

    October 14, 2016 at 12:45 pm

    @Knight of Nothing:
    Think I agree. What the hell antics will the “unshackled” Trump deploy now? My guess is he’ll spend the time using a dog-klaxon for a 90-minute shout-out to his moron followers. Future customers, donchano.

  38. 38.

    Ella in New Mexico

    October 14, 2016 at 12:45 pm

    @Knight of Nothing:

    I ask in all seriousness: is there any point to having a third debate?

    Absolutely, if only to further demonstrate just how composed, tough and persistent Hilary is, and of how completely down the toilet the Republican Party has become.

  39. 39.

    Brachiator

    October 14, 2016 at 12:48 pm

    @Knight of Nothing:

    I ask in all seriousness: is there any point to having a third debate?

    Yes, because there are many important policy issues to be ignored while Trump goes on another rage-fueled rampage.

  40. 40.

    Betty Cracker

    October 14, 2016 at 12:48 pm

    @Ella in New Mexico: I take your point, but at this juncture, it strikes me as unfair to require Hillary to share a stage with that seething degenerate.

  41. 41.

    OzarkHillbilly

    October 14, 2016 at 12:48 pm

    @sukabi: Not true. Shepard Smith has committed innumerable acts of journalism on FOX.

  42. 42.

    Elizabelle

    October 14, 2016 at 12:49 pm

    @Matt McIrvin: the standard is “not impossible”?

    Rather than: highly likely?

    I don’t like buying into the rightwing character assassination about any Clinton.

    None of us would ever be unsullied if the standard is “not impossible.”

    Both of my parents died in my care. Helpless with late stage cancer. Morphine and all manner of pharmaceuticals in the house. Is it possible I killed either?

    Why, it’s “not impossible.”

    See that slope?

    I don’t like that Reagan was god made man, and Bill Clinton is a rapist who got away with it. It’s what kids hear. Over and over and over again.

  43. 43.

    sukabi

    October 14, 2016 at 12:50 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est: I know where they’re going with this, it wasn’t drumpf on those tapes, it was JOHN FUCKING BARRON on those tapes.

  44. 44.

    Soylent Green

    October 14, 2016 at 12:52 pm

    Last night my Trump-loving brother called to say he would be voting for Pat Paulsen. Across America, towels are being thrown.

  45. 45.

    germy

    October 14, 2016 at 12:53 pm

    @Brachiator: Is it true the third debate (if it happens) will be restricted to only two topics?

    EDIT:

    I found this:

    • Debt and entitlements

    • Immigration

    • Economy

    • Supreme Court

    • Foreign hot spots

    • Fitness to be president

    These are the topics Chris Wallace is sticking to

  46. 46.

    MattF

    October 14, 2016 at 12:54 pm

    Somewhat OT… I’ve noticed that the Huffpost Pollster averages move even when there’s no new data. The gap between the candidates is now 8.4 percentage points, which is bigger than it was an hour ago and there haven’t been any new polls in that time. This suggests that their ‘smoothing’ and averaging appears to act dynamically over time up to the current moment. Isn’t that a bit peculiar? Their answer changes even when there’s no new data?

  47. 47.

    Knight of Nothing

    October 14, 2016 at 12:55 pm

    @Betty Cracker: Yes, this. HRC was heroic in both debates in different ways. In the first, she calmly and patiently made the case for her presidency and exposed Trump’s complete lack of preparation. In the second, she endured — with more dignity than almost anyone could — Trump’s grotesque sideshow. IMO, there is literally nothing that can be learned from a third.

  48. 48.

    sukabi

    October 14, 2016 at 12:55 pm

    @Soylent Green: there are going to be all manner of write ins… the question is will Deez Nutz pull a higher vote total than drumpf?

  49. 49.

    schrodinger's cat

    October 14, 2016 at 12:55 pm

    @Betty Cracker: Its abuse, pure and simple. At this juncture Trump is behaving like a rabid animal.

  50. 50.

    joel hanes

    October 14, 2016 at 12:56 pm

    @Soylent Green:

    voting for Pat Paulsen

    Ah. Well do I remember his campaigns. He once stated:

    “We’re upping our standards. Up yours too!”

    I can see why that would appeal to a disgruntled Trump voter.

  51. 51.

    jl

    October 14, 2016 at 12:56 pm

    @sukabi:

    ” right, all those recordings of drumpf being a vile, predatory piece of crap, bragging about sexual assault, are a vicious slander attack…..by Donald Trump. ”

    Trump should sue himself? I’ve read his legal team is into novel legal theories.

  52. 52.

    MattF

    October 14, 2016 at 12:57 pm

    @Betty Cracker: I agree, sort of. The purpose of the debates is, supposedly, to inform undecided voters, right? So, who, exactly, is undecided at this point?

  53. 53.

    Lizzy L

    October 14, 2016 at 1:00 pm

    Sam Wang’s EV numbers this morning: Clinton 332, Trump 206. Clinton November win probability: 95%.

  54. 54.

    trollhattan

    October 14, 2016 at 1:01 pm

    @germy:
    Can anybody envision Chris Wallace out alpha-maleing Trump into sticking with the script?

  55. 55.

    patroclus

    October 14, 2016 at 1:02 pm

    Other than Ellen’s wanton and willful attack on teenagers resembling racist sexist proto-fascist sociopaths, the most interesting thing about that show was Hillary suddenly starting dancing to Ken Bone’s question in the debate.

  56. 56.

    hovercraft

    October 14, 2016 at 1:02 pm

    @germy:

    Fitness to be president

    This covers a veritable multitude of landmines, it could be anything, from Vince Foster’s murder to puzzyghazi. On top of that since they can both turn any question regardless of topic, to the issue they actually want to talk about, the list of topics is basically meaningless.

  57. 57.

    Bill E Pilgrim

    October 14, 2016 at 1:03 pm

    @Soylent Green:

    Across America, towels are being thrown.

    That’s just locker room talk.

  58. 58.

    jl

    October 14, 2016 at 1:03 pm

    @germy: Debates are total corrupt crap at this point. Too damn many miscellaneous topics. Almost as pathetic as a Sunday news talky interview. The corporate hack news divas are fishing for gotchas and soundbites. Total BS. Probably skip the 3rd one too and check the transcripts. ‘Foreign hot spots’? What is that shit show segment going to be? A question each on Ukraine, North Korea, Syria and Yemen?

    And a few dishonest Petersen Institute scam questions on social security going ‘broke’?

    I remember when there would be a whole debate on domestic policy debate,another on foreign policy.

  59. 59.

    Calouste

    October 14, 2016 at 1:03 pm

    @MattF: Most likely, as in almost all poll models, polls lose some or all of their value after a certain time. So what you are probably seeing is the effect of a poll aging out.

  60. 60.

    JPL

    October 14, 2016 at 1:04 pm

    @trollhattan: hahahahahahahahahahahaha

  61. 61.

    Kenneth Kohl

    October 14, 2016 at 1:04 pm

    @sukabi: yep, IIRC, in “talks” with my son and nephew/nieces when they were teens, they had their “growing into” pains, but they also clearly could call bullshit.

  62. 62.

    MattF

    October 14, 2016 at 1:05 pm

    @Calouste: That makes sense. Aging out shouldn’t depend on exactly when new polls come out.

  63. 63.

    Bill E Pilgrim

    October 14, 2016 at 1:06 pm

    Great article illustration. Great article too.

  64. 64.

    Betty Cracker

    October 14, 2016 at 1:11 pm

    @Soylent Green: My husband works with a 40-something lunkhead who has never voted in his life but registered specifically to vote for Trump. Now he’s decided to be a non-voter after all. Anecdata, I know, but this is a guy who was fired up, and now he’s not even gonna cast a ballot.

  65. 65.

    debbie

    October 14, 2016 at 1:13 pm

    Has the video disappeared for a reason?

  66. 66.

    Tilda Swinton's Bald Cap

    October 14, 2016 at 1:13 pm

    @srv: Bwa ha ha ha, Vermont.

  67. 67.

    Joel

    October 14, 2016 at 1:14 pm

    @MattF: They use some kind of time-weighted average. Even without new polls, the influence of older polls diminishes by the day, ergo the changing averages.

  68. 68.

    Knight of Nothing

    October 14, 2016 at 1:14 pm

    @Brachiator: heh heh, yeah. Like I said, I’ll watch to bear witness, but I’m dreading it. What foulness awaits?

  69. 69.

    MJS

    October 14, 2016 at 1:14 pm

    @hovercraft: You make a wild leap of faith when you assume Limbaugh has had marital relations with any of his wives. Like Trump, he has ironclad NDAs for all of his relationships, including wives/ex-wives. And there is the further matter of his being busted with another man’s Viagra upon coming back from a destination known for its sex tourism (hence his ignorance of the term “consenting adults”, emphasis on “adults”). Lastly, he has no biological children. Therefore, there is no proof that Limbaugh has had any sexual relations with his wives or any other women.

  70. 70.

    MisterForkbeard

    October 14, 2016 at 1:15 pm

    @Matt McIrvin: @Matt McIrvin: The problem with this is that it’s not credible. Like, at all. Not impossible, but not credible.

    Here’s a quote from the NYT article in 1999:

    “There is no physical evidence to verify it. No one else was present during the alleged encounter in a Little Rock hotel room nearly 21 years ago. The hotel has since closed. And Mrs. Broaddrick denied the encounter in an affidavit in January 1998 in the Paula Jones case, in which she was known only as ”Jane Doe No. 5.” Through all those years, she refused to come forward. When pressed by the Jones lawyers, she denied the allegation. And now, she has recanted that denial.”

    So basically: I try to give women the benefit of the doubt, but there’s a lot to overcome here. You can create valid reasons for this (such as “I was afraid of talking about it in 1997 when I denied it.”, but the fact that Ken freaking Starr largely stayed away from the allegations also says a lot.

    The main thing that points in her favor is that she hadn’t gone looking for fame or becoming a celebrity and generally hadn’t tried to monetize any allegations she’s made. That’s sort of over now, with her recent attachment to Trump and his campaign.

  71. 71.

    Uncle Cosmo

    October 14, 2016 at 1:16 pm

    @MattF: Dusting off my long-unused, beat-up research statistician’s hat, the answer is: No. it’s not peculiar when you’re amalgamating data from different times into a time series to gauge a trend. A “moving average” may be set up to include data from the last N time periods, & even with no new data, as time passes the limits of the interval will move, thus it’s possible that the earliest data points in yesterday’s average may have moved out of the interval & are no longer included in the average.

    And even when the interval over which data is averaged is large (or indeed infinite), such “moving averages” are often weighted to decrease the contribution of data to the average the older it is. (But if it’s done using exponential weighting, I don’t think the passage of time affects the relative weights so long as no new data is included… So go with the first reason.)

  72. 72.

    PPCLI

    October 14, 2016 at 1:16 pm

    @MattF: I don’t know how they do it, but it could be that they weight older polls less, and if Trump’s older polls are holding his average up, the passage of a day can make his average go down even in the absence of new data, if a high poll gets discounted further as it gets older. That’s just one possibility that comes to mind.

    ETA: Ah, I see others have covered it with more genuine expertise than I have.

  73. 73.

    Elizabelle

    October 14, 2016 at 1:17 pm

    @Betty Cracker: Don’t do anything to change his (OK, of negligible quality) mind!

    Stick it to the man us.

  74. 74.

    hovercraft

    October 14, 2016 at 1:17 pm

    @Knight of Nothing:

    Trump, an entitled asshole of the highest order, will be trying to ritually dominate and humiliate a woman simply for having the audacity to be far above his station in every conceivable way. I am not looking forward to it at all. I will watch only to bear witness.

    Timothy Egan OCT. 14, 2016

    A wounded bear is a dangerous thing. Detested and defeated, Donald Trump is now in a tear-the-country-down rage. Day after day, he rips at the last remaining threads of decency holding this nation together. His opponent is the devil, he says — hate her with all your heart. Forget about the rule of law. Lock her up!…..

    But those who take pleasure in watching Trump destroy the Republican Party are missing the bigger picture. He’s trying to destroy the country, as well. Civility, always a tenuous thing, cannot be quickly restored in a society that has learned to hate in public, at full throttle……

    He’s destroyed whatever moral standing leading Christian conservatives had — starting with Mike Pence. Their selective piety is not teachable. Take solace in one of the small acts of courage breaking out in recent days: a group of students at Liberty University telling their Trump-supporting president, Jerry Falwell Jr., to practice what the school preaches……

    So it has come to this: The core lessons that bind a civilized society are in play in the last days of this election. We long for family dinners where Trump no longer intrudes, for tailgate parties where football is all that matters, for normalcy. Remember those days? They may be gone forever.

  75. 75.

    sigaba

    October 14, 2016 at 1:18 pm

    @PPCLI: I bet their “evidence” is going to be either:

    1. Some Wikileaks email showing the international cabal, like Journo-List 2.0 or something.

    2. Photos of all of Trumps victims smiling after the alleged assault took place, or some documentation that they didn’t all instantly cut ties, therefore they couldn’t possibly have been any wrongdoing.

  76. 76.

    Shell

    October 14, 2016 at 1:19 pm

    some news dump on Friday has been convulsing the Intertubes when I come back.

    As someone else reported, Pence has been promising that evidence will be revealed sometime today that will put all this to rest. Really. Any minute now. Stay tuned. Or maybe they’ll just haul the Clinton accusers out again.

    As to he third debate, Im undecided. Do we really want to watch what could be another horror show? Though if it puts the final fork in Trump maybe it will have served some purpose.
    Whats the format for it? We’ve had behind-the-podium and the town hall get together.

  77. 77.

    Elizabelle

    October 14, 2016 at 1:20 pm

    @MisterForkbeard: Link, please? Source?

  78. 78.

    sukabi

    October 14, 2016 at 1:21 pm

    @trollhattan: nitpick…
    Drumpf is not an alpha, he’s a predator. He’s gotten away with it for this long ONLY because he’s got enough money to make it go away, and thru intimidation, that’s predator / thuggish behavior, not alpha.

    Also exhibits same behavior in his business dealings, make a deal, break a deal, refuse to pay, profit off other peoples labor, file bankruptcy to wiggle out of debts. Do it again with other peoples money. That’s not alpha, that’s predation.

    An alpha works and understands he is a leader of his group, has a responsibility to help the group function and succeed as a whole, not just for himself.

  79. 79.

    MisterForkbeard

    October 14, 2016 at 1:21 pm

    @MattF: My guess – polls are reduced in their weighting as they get older, even if they’re not replaced by a new instance from that same pollster.

    There’s some validity to that.

  80. 80.

    Mayur

    October 14, 2016 at 1:23 pm

    @Elizabelle: I just reread that article a couple days ago.

    http://mobile.nytimes.com/1999/02/24/us/on-tortuous-route-sexual-assault-accusation-against-clinton-resurfaces.html

  81. 81.

    Cacti

    October 14, 2016 at 1:24 pm

    Trump victim #9 has stepped forward.

    Kristin Anderson

    Says Trump put his hand up her skirt at a Manhattan nightclub.

  82. 82.

    Bill E Pilgrim

    October 14, 2016 at 1:27 pm

    @Cacti: Trump’s strategy to ace the next debate will be to have a press conference with four women in the country that he found who he hasn’t assaulted. Got to be four somewhere.

  83. 83.

    lgerard

    October 14, 2016 at 1:27 pm

    @germy:

    In an appearance Friday on Fox News, Republican vice presidential candidate Mike Pence blamed the news media for what he characterized as an obsession with “unsubstantiated” claims by Trump’s accusers.

    “There will be more evidence coming out” to prove Trump’s innocence, Pence said. Asked what evidence he was talking about, he said, “The campaign is working on bringing that information out.” He did not elaborate.

    Sadly, they are unable to release this information at the present time because trump’s sex life is under audit.

  84. 84.

    mapaghimagsik

    October 14, 2016 at 1:29 pm

    @schrodinger’s cat: So its Old Yeller with a happy ending?

  85. 85.

    MisterForkbeard

    October 14, 2016 at 1:31 pm

    @Elizabelle: Sure. The NYT article in question is… wait, I can’t post naked links. Uh. Search “NYT broaddrick” and it’s the article from Feb 24, 1999. Should be near the top.

    I screwed up the blockquote in my comment, so only the first paragraph is from the NYT. The other two are mine. The last bit of exculpatory evidence from Broaddrick that hasn’t been refuted is that when she was initially interrogated by Paula Jones’ lawyers, she basically said it was a horrible time and didn’t want to relive it (but explicitly denied a rape), and that she’d deny it if questioned further (there’s audio of this). When she WAS subpoenaed, she denied it under oath as she said she’d do.

  86. 86.

    catclub

    October 14, 2016 at 1:33 pm

    @Cacti: Should I know who Kristin Anderson is? Silver skates? Pied Piper?

  87. 87.

    chopper

    October 14, 2016 at 1:33 pm

    @Matt McIrvin:

    The thing is, it’s not impossible that Bill Clinton did actually rape Juanita Broaddrick in 1978, or do something that we’d call rape today even if nobody would then. It’s the one accusation where there’s a plausible case for something beyond mere skeevy philandering, though no legally usable proof. We’re probably never going to know. Dismissing it out of hand makes us look hypocritical.

    the sworn affidavit she signed saying the relationship was completely consensual makes dismissing it out of hand relatively easy.

  88. 88.

    Trentrunner

    October 14, 2016 at 1:37 pm

    @Cacti: Actually, sorry to be crude, but that wording sanitizes what Trump did: He put his hand up her skirt and he grabbed her p*ssy, without consent, without knowing her.

    Trump bragged that he does this.

    Now women are now confirming that Trump has done this.

    This is not an epistemological conundrum, folks.

  89. 89.

    debbie

    October 14, 2016 at 1:43 pm

    If Mr. Trump disagrees, if he believes that American citizens had no right to hear what these women had to say and that the law of this country forces us and those who would dare to criticize him to stand silent or be punished, we welcome the opportunity to have a court set him straight.

    Doubtless I missed the posts about the NYT’s response to Trump’s threatened lawsuit, but their last sentence reminds me of NYT’s better days.

  90. 90.

    D58826

    October 14, 2016 at 1:44 pm

    She might want to request a shark cage for the final debate.

    Hopefully a stronger one that the one that a great white managed to bite trhu the other day.

  91. 91.

    WaterGirl

    October 14, 2016 at 1:46 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est: The thing is, Trump et al do not recognize “grabbing a woman’s pussy out of the blue without consent” as sexual assault. They really think this is “guys just being guys”.

    To you and me this shows just how screwed up they are, but to them, no big deal.

  92. 92.

    WaterGirl

    October 14, 2016 at 1:48 pm

    @Elizabelle: I’m sorry about your parents, that’s so hard.

    On the more political side, you make an excellent point.

  93. 93.

    WaterGirl

    October 14, 2016 at 1:49 pm

    @germy: Wow. • Fitness to be president leaves room for absolutely anything..

  94. 94.

    Pest Bog Mummy, Frakensteinbeck

    October 14, 2016 at 1:50 pm

    @trollhattan:
    I can envisage Chris Wallace telling Hillary to shut up and let Trump talk when he’s eight minutes past his scheduled time, agreeing that there’s no evidence Trump sexually assaulted anyone, and admonishing Hillary for not answering the question of why entitlements are the worst thing ever and need to be cut to the bone.

  95. 95.

    WaterGirl

    October 14, 2016 at 1:52 pm

    @Knight of Nothing: I completely agree with what you said, except for the part where you said there’s nothing to be gained. What can be gained are the eyeballs of the people who weren’t watching the first two and have not been paying attention until now.

    I didn’t watch the first debate, but the second debate showed me that she will have a much steadier hand on the wheel than I would have expected.

  96. 96.

    Brachiator

    October 14, 2016 at 1:53 pm

    @germy:

    Is it true the third debate (if it happens) will be restricted to only two topics?

    I had originally heard that the debate would primarily be about immigration and the Supreme Court. Your list looks more interesting.

    But I assume that Trump will try to redirect the debate to whatever he wants to rant about.

  97. 97.

    Cacti

    October 14, 2016 at 1:54 pm

    @catclub:

    Should I know who Kristin Anderson is? Silver skates? Pied Piper?

    Nope. Just the name of a woman brave enough to put her name out there as a victim, and invite all of the scrutiny that goes with it.

  98. 98.

    WaterGirl

    October 14, 2016 at 1:55 pm

    @MattF: My sister, who is surely still not paying attention yet.

    She always votes, but she says she can’t control any of the stuff that happens anyway, so she just tunes it all out and lives in a world where the day-to-day of her work and home life is all there is. Multiple her by a zillion – those are the undecided voters that are still reachable. I bet she starts thinking about this in a week or two.

  99. 99.

    WaterGirl

    October 14, 2016 at 1:57 pm

    @debbie: Oh good, it’s not just me! I had to go to Chrome in order to see it – i just got a big empty space in Safari.

  100. 100.

    Brachiator

    October 14, 2016 at 1:57 pm

    @chopper:

    the sworn affidavit she signed saying the relationship was completely consensual makes dismissing it out of hand relatively easy.

    I do not think that Broaddrick admits to any sexual relationship with Clinton in that affidavit.

    I don’t know why she has changed her story now (apart from the political aspects). In any event, the election is really about Hillary, not Bill Clinton.

    I’m not interested in Trump’s insinuations about Hillary and Bill. If he has any evidence of anything criminal, he can try to bring it. Otherwise there is no point to this.

  101. 101.

    hovercraft

    October 14, 2016 at 2:01 pm

    @D58826:
    From Seth Meyers Closer Look at Trump’s recent troubles.

    former Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee and shows the former Arkansas governor explaining, on Fox, what’s really motivating Trump supporters. Huckabee and others say, “At least he’s not Hillary.”

    Mike Huckabee: “It’s like Captain Quint in the movie Jaws. He’s [Trump] vulgar. He’s salty. He’s the guy who’s going to save your butt and save your family. So at the end of the day, when he kills the shark, you’re happy about it. Now Hillary is the shark. The choice is, do you vote for Captain Quint, who’s going to save your family, or do you vote for the shark— Hillary is the shark.”

    Meyers :

    “He’s right! Trump is Quint, and Hillary is the shark. Wait, how did that movie end again?

    So if she’s the shark, I’m okay with that.

  102. 102.

    trollhattan

    October 14, 2016 at 2:06 pm

    @hovercraft: Huckabee would have released the shark from prison on learning the shark had converted to Christianity.

  103. 103.

    Elizabelle

    October 14, 2016 at 2:07 pm

    @MisterForkbeard: Thank you. It was the additional two paragraphs that confused me. :)

    Here’s link to your article: NY Times, February 24, 1999: On Tortuous Route, Sexual Assault Accusation Against Clinton Resurfaces

    The language from the article showed up in a lot of rightwing news sites, hence my question. Article looks worth a read.

  104. 104.

    randy khan

    October 14, 2016 at 2:08 pm

    @srv:

    You know the article does not say that Vermont is in play.

    This isn’t a question, by the way. The last two polls show Clinton up by 20+.

  105. 105.

    Elizabelle

    October 14, 2016 at 2:09 pm

    @WaterGirl: Ah, thank you. Think of them every day.

  106. 106.

    Gelfling 545

    October 14, 2016 at 2:16 pm

    @germy:

    “These are the topics Chris Wallace is sticking to”

    I wish him good luck with that. This is Trump we’re talking about.

  107. 107.

    Brachiator

    October 14, 2016 at 2:30 pm

    @Elizabelle: I know it was not a central topic in this thread, but just wanted to note my sympathy in reference to your parents. I know that must have been a difficult situation for you.

  108. 108.

    Brachiator

    October 14, 2016 at 2:50 pm

    @hovercraft:

    But those who take pleasure in watching Trump destroy the Republican Party are missing the bigger picture. He’s trying to destroy the country, as well. Civility, always a tenuous thing, cannot be quickly restored in a society that has learned to hate in public, at full throttle……

    Trump is neither that important, nor that dangerous. He is destined to become a footnote in history, the man who made fools of the Republicans in 2016, and who lost to the first woman president of the United States. Unless, of course, he wins, in which case he will be the last president and there will be no future history to document the destruction of the country.

    Civility did not come to an end with Trump, no more than it was Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky who invented oral sex (a crazy claim by some conservatives).

    Trump tapped into an anger that was already festering in the country, and he magnified aspects of it with his own obsession with conspiracy theories and gutter antics, and his own defective personality.

    But he can no more channel his own rage than he can make political use of his supporters’ anger and dissatisfaction to help him win the election.

    I don’t deny that he will cause trouble and add to our national political mess, but at most he will leave a lot of mess to be cleaned up by others.

  109. 109.

    rikyrah

    October 14, 2016 at 2:53 pm

    @Lizzy L:

    Sam Wang’s EV numbers this morning: Clinton 332, Trump 206. Clinton November win probability: 95%.

    Hers are too low…his are too high…

  110. 110.

    Bill Arnold

    October 14, 2016 at 3:22 pm

    @Betty Cracker:

    I take your point, but at this juncture, it strikes me as unfair to require Hillary to share a stage with that seething degenerate.

    This is about down-ticket races now. If Hillary can tip the House, she wins big politically for the next 2 years at least.
    A third debate has its risks, but the upside potential is significant too.

  111. 111.

    Original Lee

    October 14, 2016 at 3:26 pm

    @Matt McIrvin: I’m seeing a lot of “No rapists in the White House – vote Evan!” on my FB feed. Many of these are from former Trumpkins, and others are from the formerly Johnson-curious. The few who can converse about it without acrimony basically say they don’t care that Bill isn’t on the ticket, he will still be representing the U.S. as First Laddie. They don’t want him anywhere near the building.

  112. 112.

    Bill Arnold

    October 14, 2016 at 3:52 pm

    @WaterGirl:
    I use Firefox+NoScript and had to allow a few site’s scripts, started with ellentube.com

  113. 113.

    Bill Arnold

    October 14, 2016 at 3:54 pm

    @sukabi:

    That’s not alpha, that’s predation.

    Thank you. Many people have been missing this distinction.

  114. 114.

    Juju

    October 14, 2016 at 5:49 pm

    @MisterForkbeard: One of the things that bothers me is Broaderick can’t give anything close to a date or day of the week that the alleged incident happened. I would have to look it up and I don’t really care to, but I think the most specific detail as to when the alleged incident happened was autumn sometime. That’s a little too vague for me. There is also the issue of habit, or you are what you are. Bill Clinton has a history of taking no for an answer. Even Paula Jones said when she said no, he stopped. I am all for giving the benefit of the doubt, but there is so much of Broaderick’s story I find a bit too iffy.

  115. 115.

    Kay Eye

    October 14, 2016 at 5:50 pm

    My morning paper headlines. Left side, 3 columns, Trump Calls Accusers ‘Horrible, Horrible Liars’ – right side, 2 columns, Sexual Assault Reports Climb At Texas State (TX State University in San Marcos).
    Sub-head under the Trump story, a note that “Meanwhile, the first lady berates Trump in an emotional speech.”
    Austin American-Statesman. Such fun.

  116. 116.

    Cleos

    October 15, 2016 at 11:28 am

    @Elizabelle:

    I don’t like that Reagan was god made man, and Bill Clinton is a rapist who got away with it. It’s what kids hear. Over and over and over again.

    I wouldn’t be at all surprised if a number of people too young to remember the Right’s antics during the 1990s think it was all exaggerated. Sometimes the truth is weird enough that it’s an understandable assumption.

    Black helicopters. Murder speculations with no basis other than wishful thinking. “Hillary” putting pornographic ornaments on the White House Christmas tree*.

    And will people give her the courtesy of a last name if she’s elected? I’m guessing a sizable percentage will continue to refer to her as if she were a child, pet or even a favorite houseplant.

    * This made the rounds during that silly fad for pickle ornaments.

  117. 117.

    Cleos

    October 15, 2016 at 11:40 am

    @Bill E Pilgrim: Towels are snapped, and *then* thrown.

    Or so I’ve been told.

  118. 118.

    Older

    October 16, 2016 at 7:46 pm

    @Shell: A third debate might be a horror show for Secretary Clinton, or it might be another triumph. It won’t be a horror show for Mr Trump, because he’s too stupid to realize it, and it won’t be for most of us. It will be hilarious, like the first two. So: for whom would it be a “horror show’? Possibly for sensible Republicans, were there any left.

    Personally, I can’t wait.

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