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You are here: Home / Open Threads / Excellent Links / Excellent Read: “The white flight of Derek Black”

Excellent Read: “The white flight of Derek Black”

by Anne Laurie|  October 16, 20167:17 pm| 110 Comments

This post is in: Excellent Links, Post-racial America, Serenity Now!

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People change, sometimes even for the better. Eli Saslow, in the Washington Post:

Their public conference had been interrupted by a demonstration march and a bomb threat, so the white nationalists decided to meet secretly instead. They slipped past police officers and protesters into a hotel in downtown Memphis. The country had elected its first black president just a few days earlier, and now in November 2008, dozens of the world’s most prominent racists wanted to strategize for the years ahead.

The room was filled in part by former heads of the Ku Klux Klan and prominent neo-Nazis, but one of the keynote speeches had been reserved for a Florida community college student who had just turned 19. Derek Black was already hosting his own radio show. He had launched a white nationalist website for children and won a local political election in Florida. “The leading light of our movement,” was how the conference organizer introduced him, and then Derek stepped to the lectern.

“The way ahead is through politics,” he said. “We can infiltrate. We can take the country back.”

Years before Donald Trump launched a presidential campaign based in part on the politics of race and division, a group of avowed white nationalists was working to make his rise possible by pushing its ideology from the radical fringes ever closer to the far conservative right. Many attendees in Memphis had transformed over their careers from Klansmen to white supremacists to self-described “racial realists,” and Derek Black represented another step in that evolution.

He never used racial slurs. He didn’t advocate violence or lawbreaking. He had won a Republican committee seat in Palm Beach County, Fla., where Trump also had a home, without ever mentioning white nationalism, talking instead about the ravages of political correctness, affirmative action and unchecked Hispanic immigration.

He was not only a leader of racial politics but also a product of them. His father, Don Black, had created Stormfront, the Internet’s first and largest white nationalist site, with 300,000 users and counting. His mother, Chloe, had once been married to David Duke, one of the country’s most infamous racial zealots, and Duke had become Derek’s godfather. They had raised Derek at the forefront of the movement, and some white nationalists had begun calling him “the heir.”…

Eight years later, that future they envisioned in Memphis was finally being realized in the presidential election of 2016. Donald Trump was retweeting white supremacists. Hillary Clinton was making speeches about the rise of white hate and quoting David Duke, who had launched his own campaign for the U.S. Senate.

White nationalism had bullied its way toward the very center of American politics, and yet, one of the people who knew the ideology best was no longer anywhere near that center. Derek had just turned 27, and instead of leading the movement, he was trying to untangle himself not only from the national moment but also from a life he no longer understood…

Most of the other students in his dorm were college freshmen, and as a 21-year-old transfer student, Derek already had a car and a legal ID to buy beer. The qualities that had once made him seem quirky — shoulder-length red hair, the cowboy hat he wore, a passion for medieval re-enactment — made him a good fit for New College, where many of the 800 students were a little bit weird. He forged his own armor and dressed as a knight for Halloween. He watched zombie movies with students from his dorm, a group that included a Peruvian immigrant and an Orthodox Jew.

Maybe they were usurpers, as his father had said, but Derek also kind of liked them, and gradually he went from keeping his convictions quiet to actively disguising them. When another student mentioned that he had been reading about the racist implications of “Lord of the Rings” on a website called Stormfront, Derek pretended he had never heard of it…

He was still considering what to do when he returned home to visit his parents later that summer. His father was tracking the rise of white nationalism on cable TV, and his parents were talking about “enemies” and “comrades” in the “ongoing war,” but now it sounded ridiculous to Derek. He spent the day rebuilding windows with them, which was one of Derek’s quirky hobbies that his parents had always supported. They had bought his guitar and joined in his medieval re-enactments. They had paid his tuition at the liberal arts college where he had Shabbat dinners. They had taught him, most of all, to be independent and ideological, and to speak his beliefs even when doing so resulted in backlash.

He left the house that night and went to a bar. He took out his computer and began writing a statement.

“A large section of the community I grew up in believes strongly in white nationalism, and members of my family whom I respect greatly, particularly my father, have long been resolute advocates for that cause. I was not prepared to risk driving a wedge in those relationships.

“After a great deal of thought since then, I have resolved that it is in the best interests of everyone involved to be honest about my slow but steady disaffiliation from white nationalism. I can’t support a movement that tells me I can’t be a friend to whomever I wish or that other people’s races require me to think of them in a certain way or be suspicious at their advancements.

“The things I have said as well as my actions have been harmful to people of color, people of Jewish descent, activists striving for opportunity and fairness for all. I am sorry for the damage done.”

He continued to write for several more paragraphs before addressing an email to the SPLC, the group his father had considered a primary adversary for 40 years.

“Publish in full,” Derek instructed. Then he attached the letter and hit “send.”…

Note at the bottom of the article: “Comments are now closed. We turn off the comments on stories dealing with personal loss, tragedies or other sensitive topics.”

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Reader Interactions

110Comments

  1. 1.

    Trentrunner

    October 16, 2016 at 7:19 pm

    Of course we want to encourage this sort of thing.

    But I can’t join in “congratulations” for someone deciding not to become a white nationalist terrorist.

    Most I can muster is a grudging “Glad you rediscovered your basic humanity, dude.”

  2. 2.

    Trentrunner

    October 16, 2016 at 7:22 pm

    Holy cow, AZ just went light blue over at 538.

  3. 3.

    JGabriel

    October 16, 2016 at 7:27 pm

    Trentrunner:

    Most I can muster is a grudging “Glad you rediscovered your basic humanity, dude.”

    Given the guy’s upbringing and age, I suspect we’re talking about discovering it for the first time rather than rediscovering it.

  4. 4.

    Major Major Major Major

    October 16, 2016 at 7:27 pm

    @Trentrunner: It’s been back and forth all week, no?

  5. 5.

    sdhays

    October 16, 2016 at 7:29 pm

    @Trentrunner: He didn’t “rediscover” his basic humanity – he discovered it fairly quickly after being taken out of that environment. He clearly had a future in the movement as well, not just as a follower but as one of the up-and-coming leaders – he had plenty of incentives to stay in the pool, but he chose to get out as soon as he had an opportunity to see it for what it was.

    No matter how much parents try to screw up there kids, some make it out ok.

  6. 6.

    SuzieC

    October 16, 2016 at 7:30 pm

    It went blue two days ago.

  7. 7.

    Warren Terra

    October 16, 2016 at 7:30 pm

    That Orthodox Jewish friend – the one who organized weekly Shabbat dinners at which a diverse group of people simply shared their common humanity, in a carefully nonconfrontational manner – sounds like an amazing human being.

  8. 8.

    jenn

    October 16, 2016 at 7:35 pm

    @Trentrunner: I disagree. There are a lot of things that kids can be “programmed” to believe, growing up in a household holding strong beliefs of a particular type. It can be hard to break those beliefs. This guy broke outside of his bubble, realized he was wrong, and acted on that realization. There are so so very many people who are not capable of doing that. I don’t think the guy should have a parade thrown for him, but I also don’t think it helps anything to deny him a “good for you – now keep working.”

  9. 9.

    Warren Terra

    October 16, 2016 at 7:36 pm

    @Trentrunner:

    Holy cow, AZ just went light blue over at 538.

    NBC News has a story on the lack of a Republican campaign in AZ; some highlights, from memory:
    1) The total campaign staff in the state, jointly funded by the Trump campaign and the national and state parties, is five people. Whole state.
    2) They haven’t been running broadcast ads.
    3) They have a budget for mailers – of $15K for the rest of the month, and $7K for the week in November prior to the election. I don’t know how much a mailer costs, but I’m guessing 50 cents apiece would be a ludicrously good bargain. If we assume each is seen by two voters on average, that’s less than 50,000 voters contacted, once. In 2012 almost 2.5 million people voted for President in Arizona.

  10. 10.

    Trentrunner

    October 16, 2016 at 7:39 pm

    @SuzieC: You are right. Just checked 538. I missed it turning a few days ago.

    Still…wow.

  11. 11.

    john fremont

    October 16, 2016 at 7:44 pm

    @jenn: This! How many people will fall back on “Well that’s the way I was raised,and my parents are good people.” It takes some courage to walk away from some of the things you were taught growing up.

  12. 12.

    Smiling Mortician

    October 16, 2016 at 7:45 pm

    I like the connection in my mind between Derek Black’s story and Arizona going blue.

  13. 13.

    rikyrah

    October 16, 2016 at 7:47 pm

    AP Politics ✔ @AP_Politics
    Koch activists go door-to-door to support Republican candidates, without mentioning Trump, reports

  14. 14.

    Jim Parish

    October 16, 2016 at 7:48 pm

    Me, I think of the Prodigal Son: “But it was appropriate to celebrate and be glad, for this, your brother, was dead, and is alive again. He was lost, and is found.”

  15. 15.

    Baud

    October 16, 2016 at 7:53 pm

    @jenn:

    Reminds me of this.

    Mike Stivic: Did you ever think that possibly your father just might be wrong?

    Archie Bunker: My old man? Don’t be stupid. My old man? Let me tell you, he was never wrong about nothing.

    Mike Stivic: Yes he was, Arch. My old man used to call people the same things as your old man. But I knew he was wrong. So is your old man.

    Archie Bunker: Don’t tell me my father was wrong. Let me tell you something, a father who made you is wrong? A father, the breadwinner of the house there? The man who goes out and busts his butt to keep a roof over your head and clothes on your back you call him wrong? Father, that’s the man that comes home, bringing you candy. Father is the first guy to throw a baseball to you. And take you for walks in the park holding you by the hand? My father held me by the hand, hey, my father had a hand on him though I tell you. He busted that hand once, and he busted the other on me to teach me to do good. My father, he shoved my in a closet for seven hours to teach me to do good, ’cause he loved me. Don’t be looking at me. Let me tell you something, you’re supposed to love your father ’cause your father loves you. How can any man who loves you tell you anything that’s wrong?

  16. 16.

    Thoughtful David

    October 16, 2016 at 7:54 pm

    I saw this and thought the main point was that once he got out from his bubble (that is, into university) and got some education, suddenly he began seeing that the world wasn’t the way he had been told. Education opened his eyes.
    I also think this is why cities tend to be much more tolerant. You can’t stay in your bubble all the time. And once you start seeing that the “others” aren’t the eeebil things you’ve been told, you begin to think differently.
    In rural areas, it’s easier to stay stuck in your bigotry. You’re always with your same friends, same little church group, same bar pals, same school chums. And none of them is particularly educated about the world outside. Makes it easy to stick to your old thinking.

  17. 17.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    October 16, 2016 at 7:56 pm

    @Thoughtful David: “I like the uneducated”. Obviously, we should not send kids to college.

  18. 18.

    redshirt

    October 16, 2016 at 7:58 pm

    Clearly, this is why Republicans need to ban all education.

  19. 19.

    ET

    October 16, 2016 at 7:59 pm

    I sort of felt sorry for him. With parents like there is no way he wasn’t going to be in the family business it was in a way a Cult that got ahold of someone young and inculcated them into a life they didn’t choose. I guess curiosity and a university education are the most dangerous things. He finally discovered who he could have been all along if his parents were better people and not warped people who brainwashed him.

  20. 20.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    October 16, 2016 at 7:59 pm

    @redshirt: All the youngings need is some good home schoolin’ and church.

  21. 21.

    Baud

    October 16, 2016 at 8:02 pm

    @BillinGlendaleCA: There was that conservative kid who spoke at the RNC and he grew up and went to college and grew out of it.

  22. 22.

    NotMax

    October 16, 2016 at 8:03 pm

    Marjoe Gortner redux. (The embrace of reality, not necessarily the specifics.)

    History classes ought to be another revelation for him.

  23. 23.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    October 16, 2016 at 8:03 pm

    @Baud: See! That just points out the danger of these so called “colleges”. Bastions of liberalism corrupting our youth.

  24. 24.

    cain

    October 16, 2016 at 8:05 pm

    @Baud:

    Some of the best television was Archie Bunker, Jeffersons, Good Times…. some really hard hitting stuff at times. (and possibly fresh prince of bel-air)

  25. 25.

    cain

    October 16, 2016 at 8:06 pm

    @Trentrunner: I think a person who is working on redemption, and is resolute about it deserves every praise we can muster.

  26. 26.

    TheMightyTrowel

    October 16, 2016 at 8:06 pm

    OT: back home! Huzzah. Survived the fucking freezing A380 thanks to the kindness of Qantas flight attendant who saw me shivering and gave me 2 extra blankets. That said…

    So, on my long flight from dubai to Sydney last night i got up to walk a little and have a stretch in one of the more open areas. As I’m stretching an older man reached his arms out towards me and tried to touch my stomach. I was able to step back out of reach but he just laughed, wiggled his fingers and went ‘coochie coochie coo’. One of the flight attendants was stood right next to me, saw the whole thing, and did nothing except roll her eyes. None of the other passengers in the area said anything and most avoided eye contact with me when i looked around for some support.

    This isn’t the first time a man has taken advantage of the close quarters in a plane to try and touch me against my will and unfortunately it probably won’t be the last. It’s also not the first time there have been witnesses who let it happen and failed to speak up or intervene. A PSA: don’t be like these bystanders. If you see something like this speak up. Say something at top volume like ‘it doesn’t look like she wants you touching her!’ I’ve used this line before and it works well to shame these sorts of asshats. It’s particularly useful when other men shame them – and it’s often safer for men to speak up. Please do.

  27. 27.

    PsiFighter37

    October 16, 2016 at 8:07 pm

    Great read. Kudos to a young man overcoming the prejudices built in from his upbringing.

  28. 28.

    ShadeTail

    October 16, 2016 at 8:07 pm

    @Trentrunner:

    Of course we want to encourage this sort of thing.

    But I can’t join in “congratulations” for someone deciding not to become a white nationalist terrorist.

    Most I can muster is a grudging “Glad you rediscovered your basic humanity, dude.”

    I’m not sure you realize this, but you’re blaming the dude for how he was born. It’s not his fault who his parents are. It’s not his fault that they raised him in a stew of white supremacy and racial resentment. It’s not his fault that he had literally no other point of reference for his entire childhood and the first few years of his adulthood.

    He’s not to blame for any of that, any more than he is to blame for his skin color or his sexual orientation. They’re all artifacts of his birth, and he had no say in that.

    So I declare emphatically that you are wrong. He absolutely should be congratulated for coming out of that kind of childhood and still managing to learn better, because rising above where you came from is no small feat.

  29. 29.

    Baud

    October 16, 2016 at 8:08 pm

    @BillinGlendaleCA: I blame literacy.

  30. 30.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    October 16, 2016 at 8:08 pm

    @TheMightyTrowel: Wait, Trump was flying to Oz?

  31. 31.

    geg6

    October 16, 2016 at 8:10 pm

    I applaud this young man. He saw what was wrong, was thoughtful and open-minded enough to listen and read and risked everything, his family and the future he could have had through them and came out a person who takes responsibility and has great empathy. I hope he finds some peace and doesn’t blame himself too much. With his background, he could easily have gone the other way. It s to his credit that he didn’t.

  32. 32.

    Baud

    October 16, 2016 at 8:10 pm

    @TheMightyTrowel: How creepy.

  33. 33.

    Thoughtful David

    October 16, 2016 at 8:11 pm

    @TheMightyTrowel:
    Sort of older white guy? Kind of orange hair? Short fingers? I think I know who he was….

  34. 34.

    cain

    October 16, 2016 at 8:11 pm

    @TheMightyTrowel:

    Wow, that’s just crazy… I haven’t never seen that… That would have been shocking…

  35. 35.

    sigaba

    October 16, 2016 at 8:12 pm

    @Trentrunner: It’s been on the bubble, it was light blue earlier this week too.

  36. 36.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    October 16, 2016 at 8:12 pm

    @Baud: Exactly, what ever literacy is. All you need are the 3 R’s(Readin’, Rittin’ and Rithmatic) and the Good Book.

  37. 37.

    Baud

    October 16, 2016 at 8:14 pm

    I’m proud to say I’ve never groped anybody.

    Starting to wish I used that as my campaign slogan.

  38. 38.

    scav

    October 16, 2016 at 8:15 pm

    Continuing with my tangential sequiturs, given Derek Black’s history in radio, I really want him to broadcast with Elon James White — especially if they can discuss the his Orangacity and the Red State / Blue State divide. And medieval bows and swords of course.

  39. 39.

    Joel

    October 16, 2016 at 8:16 pm

    Anyone hear about the firebombing in NC? Hoping for a quick and non violent arrest.

  40. 40.

    TheMightyTrowel

    October 16, 2016 at 8:16 pm

    @cain: I WISH i were shocked. And definitely not trump: (a) I was travelling in cattle class not gold-plated-first and (b) he was neither white nor orange.

    The issue really is that most of these assholes don’t have bright orange skin, dead ferret headpieces or teeny tiny fingers to make them obvious and easy to avoid – they look just like any other guy. which of course is why it’s always ever so difficult to believe women when they come forward. Only creepy looking guys are creeps, right?

  41. 41.

    Barbara

    October 16, 2016 at 8:19 pm

    @Warren Terra: I could not decide which of these young men I admired more — they both showed an openness and generosity of spirit that is unusual. Derek risked losing more personally. Many membets of his family no longer speak to him.

  42. 42.

    Comrade Scrutinizer

    October 16, 2016 at 8:21 pm

    @Joel: No.

  43. 43.

    Thoughtful David

    October 16, 2016 at 8:21 pm

    @TheMightyTrowel:
    Sorry–I wasn’t trying to diminish the horror of your experience. Bad joke. No matter what, the guy was a creep, if not worse.

  44. 44.

    the Conster, la Citoyenne

    October 16, 2016 at 8:22 pm

    This story is why we’re liberals and not conservatives – we have facts, reason and empiricism on our side, and the power of an objective reality that just doesn’t yield to spin and lies no matter what anyone says or does to deny science and the truth of the matters it points to. It’s why so many educated people are liberal, and why so many conservatives fight to deny access to education. There’s a certain resonance that truth has – things seen cannot be unseen, and the bell rung in one’s awake mind cannot be unrung. This person reasoned his way out of an ideology that he was taught, and it’s an object lesson on the power of reason and the force of personal interaction with those outside your bubble.

  45. 45.

    NorthLeft12

    October 16, 2016 at 8:25 pm

    Thanks for posting that article. I guess it is just reinforcing the idea that people can change, no matter their roots and previous actions/beliefs.
    My takeaway is that this is an incredibly personal decision, that occurs over a long time and requires the defeat of ignorance.

  46. 46.

    Barbara

    October 16, 2016 at 8:29 pm

    @TheMightyTrowel: Please don’t touch me, said loudly, often does the trick. For whatever reason, even when I was young I found my voice. I learned first with my mother, who used to hit me. I was amazed that she would stop just because I told her to. Which is not the same thing as saying you are responsible for this idiot’s unlawful touching. I just think too many women are too nice. It is our upbringing.

  47. 47.

    NorthLeft12

    October 16, 2016 at 8:30 pm

    @TheMightyTrowel: Not excusing the passengers in the area, but i think you needed to speak directly to the attendant and ask what she saw, and why she did not do anything. She owes it to all her passengers that they have a safe and enjoyable flight. That guy’s conduct deserved a reprimand……at the least….from a person in authority.

  48. 48.

    Brachiator

    October 16, 2016 at 8:35 pm

    @Trentrunner:

    But I can’t join in “congratulations” for someone deciding not to become a white nationalist terrorist.

    Sounds like he renounced white nationalism. This is more forceful and definitive than you seem to want to allow.

  49. 49.

    Lizzy L

    October 16, 2016 at 8:35 pm

    @Trentrunner: I’ve been watching AZ: it’s been light blue before. The numbers are very close. Still, I’m hopeful.

    ETA: I see a lot of people before me have pointed this out.

  50. 50.

    Pogonip

    October 16, 2016 at 8:40 pm

    Zombie movies–is there anything they can’t do?

    Trowel, I believe that in your situation etiquette requires grabbing the offending party’s thumb, bending it the wrong way till you have his full attention, then explaining that you are not amused.

  51. 51.

    Uncle Cosmo

    October 16, 2016 at 8:40 pm

    @Baud: That scene is a stunning example of why people back then who were bubbling that “All In The Family is bringing Americans back together” were full of shit. Yeah, we all got together physically in front of the tube & laughed our butts off, but we were laughing for utterly different reasons:

    KIDS: Jesus Christ, listen to that asshole!
    PARENTS: That’s right, Arch, you tell ’em!

  52. 52.

    Prescott Cactus

    October 16, 2016 at 8:41 pm

    @Warren Terra: AZ will be blue. Alot is happening here.

  53. 53.

    Felonius Monk

    October 16, 2016 at 8:41 pm

    @Baud:

    Starting to wish I used that as my campaign slogan.

    Maybe next time: Baud! — 2020. Didn’t Grope in 2016 and Ain’t Gropin’ Now.

  54. 54.

    cain

    October 16, 2016 at 8:44 pm

    @TheMightyTrowel:

    Yeah, I can sort of understand… I was in Ireland and being a non-white person in a very white country I had some fairly unwanted attention. I generally like to be low key, and while probably nothing like the kind of attention a woman might get every day it definitely gave me pause as I didn’t like the aggressiveness that some women were portraying.

  55. 55.

    Ceci n'est pas mon nym

    October 16, 2016 at 8:47 pm

    @TheMightyTrowel: I will keep this in mind, but I haven’t actually seen any of this groping.

    I’m not saying it doesn’t happen. I know it does. I’ve been reading all the accounts people have been posting. I believe them. I’m well aware that there’s a lot of groping happening out there on public transportation.

    I’m just saying that somehow as a frequent rider of public transportation and planes and a non-groper, any groping is apparently happening where I’m not seeing it. Or perhaps it’s right under my nose but I’m not comprehending what I’m seeing.

    All I can say is that I’ll start looking more consciously for signs of groping, and try to say something if I actually see it.

  56. 56.

    Brachiator

    October 16, 2016 at 8:48 pm

    @TheMightyTrowel:

    I was able to step back out of reach but he just laughed, wiggled his fingers and went ‘coochie coochie coo’.

    If I were a woman, I might have said, if you try that again, I will break your fingers. As the eldest brother I counselled my sister AND brothers to be prepared to fight back against a predator, but only if they could do so safely. But otherwise avoid or flee if necessary.

    It’s unfortunate that no one else on the plane helped. In other situations, you can’t be sure whether the offender might become violent, which makes people reluctant to intervene.

    I think the air crew could tell the man that he could be arrested when the plane landed. That probably would have made him wet himself.

    Very sorry that you ever have to deal with this.

  57. 57.

    Ruckus

    October 16, 2016 at 8:49 pm

    @NorthLeft12:
    The flight attendant might not be allowed to reprimand someone in flight if they are just being assholes and not disrupting the cabin. I agree with you but there are a lot of rules that some airlines have about how to act while the plane is in the air so as to not create a disturbance, especially on an overseas flight. Personally I think a sharp smack over the head with say the buckle end of one of those seat belt extenders they use to show us all for the umpteenth time how to buckle up would not have been out of line.

  58. 58.

    Ceci n'est pas mon nym

    October 16, 2016 at 8:51 pm

    @Uncle Cosmo: And some people didn’t get that Carroll O’Connor himself was directly opposed to what his character was saying.
    @Baud: Thank you for actually calling Mike by his name. I have never understood why the tendency is to use Archie’s nickname, “Meathead” for Michael. Even in ads back when the show was going on. “Enjoy Archie, Edith, Gloria and Meathead.” Irritated me then, irritates me now.

  59. 59.

    gogol's wife

    October 16, 2016 at 8:52 pm

    @Felonius Monk:

    That’s a winner!

  60. 60.

    Mingobat f/k/a Karen in GA

    October 16, 2016 at 8:57 pm

    @NorthLeft12: @TheMightyTrowel: I agree — I wonder why the flight attendant wouldn’t do or say anything?

    ETA
    @Ruckus: I guess that makes sense on one level, but where do they draw the line between things worth doing something about, and things to ignore? I’m imagining the guy trying to grope someone isn’t worth doing anything about, but if the woman instinctively smacks his hand away, does she get reprimanded for being physical? It’s just strange that they would ignore that.

  61. 61.

    Davis X. Machina

    October 16, 2016 at 8:58 pm

    @ShadeTail:

    I’m not sure you realize this, but you’re blaming the dude for how he was born.

    Blaming children for making a bad choice of parents is as American as apple pie.
    There’s a whole political party based on the premise.

  62. 62.

    Prescott Cactus

    October 16, 2016 at 9:01 pm

    @TheMightyTrowel: Good advice. Giving guy folk a heads up on how we should act can always make the world a little better, especially if we follow thru.

    Never thought of an airplane as an unsafe zone for females. We live, we learn. THANKS !

  63. 63.

    Brachiator

    October 16, 2016 at 9:02 pm

    @Ceci n’est pas mon nym:

    I’m just saying that somehow as a frequent rider of public transportation and planes and a non-groper, any groping is apparently happening where I’m not seeing it. Or perhaps it’s right under my nose but I’m not comprehending what I’m seeing.

    In Los Angeles, there was a major campaign by Metro to deal with the sexual harassment of riders.

    I don’t see it often myself. But I ride early in the morning and usually only once in the evening. The same fellow riders who not only recognize each other, but who often always pick the same seat, they are such creatures of habit, are other members of the commute.

    Some trivial observations. Over the years, I have noticed that pretty women will at times sit in front and chat with a male driver, not because they want to flirt, but because it discourages creeps from engaging them.

    And then there is the multiplicative power of beauty. A couple of times I noticed very attractive women who did not know each other sit together. A guy who might try to talk to a woman alone sometimes is intimidated by “hot” women sitting together.

    I’ve seen working class Latinas work as a group and support and protect a woman who was being bothered.

  64. 64.

    JJ

    October 16, 2016 at 9:08 pm

    @Ceci n’est pas mon nym: Frottage – handless groping. It’s stealthier and probably more common on public transit. And it allows for ambiguity of intent.

  65. 65.

    Ed

    October 16, 2016 at 9:08 pm

    3 things I have picked up this election

    1) “You can’t reason someone out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into” – Jonathan Swift

    2) Folks believe a) racists are bad b) I’m not bad c) therefore I am not a racist ( Sadly this is not true )

    3) People think you need to hate to be racist – Some of these Trump supporters do really impressive mission work – but you really just need to believe that you are superior.

  66. 66.

    Balconesfault

    October 16, 2016 at 9:11 pm

    This of course, is the reason why a lot of Republicans here in the great state of Texas wanted to ban critical thinking from the State High School curriculum.

  67. 67.

    Ruckus

    October 16, 2016 at 9:17 pm

    @Mingobat f/k/a Karen in GA:
    I think that bad behavior should be stopped immediately, it doesn’t take much for things to get out of hand. OTOH 35,000ft and possibly over several thousand miles of ocean till landfall, I’d also think that the safety of all concerned might be more important. It’s a difficult issue to square from our armchair positions. Would it be better if the world was a nicer and far less grabby place? Absolutely. Would it be a better world if some men didn’t act like they owned and were owed the world? Absolutely. I do know that sometimes a plane is met by the police and people are taken into custody for crap they pull, but the plane has to be on the ground for that. This is not an American airline and it is not going to America so I’m not sure also of the rules of how this is handled, if at all.

  68. 68.

    jenn

    October 16, 2016 at 9:17 pm

    @TheMightyTrowel: That’s terrible, I’m very sorry. Yes, definitely people should speak up if they see something like that. I think it’s been (in a way) good to have had this whole conversation about sexual assault out in the open, because it allows people to think about what they’d do in a particular situation. There have been a few situations in my life where something has happened to me or I have witnessed something happening to someone else (not assault), where I haven’t acted as I’d like because I was too shocked that it had happened to react properly. Then the next time a similar situation came around, I was prepared to deal with it appropriately.

  69. 69.

    jenn

    October 16, 2016 at 9:18 pm

    @TheMightyTrowel: Oh, also – have you thought about reporting this to the airline? Ask them how they are supposed to respond in such a situation; encourage them to develop guidelines if they don’t have a coherent answer?

  70. 70.

    Ruckus

    October 16, 2016 at 9:21 pm

    @Brachiator:
    Don’t know about the metro buses but on the Metro trains they announce about calling the sheriff every few minutes and give the numbers and apps and have an emergency button to alert the driver. Metro takes it serious. I’ve never seen this level on any other public transit system I’ve been on. They also have sheriffs ride the trains regularly. It seems to make a difference.

  71. 71.

    Mingobat f/k/a Karen in GA

    October 16, 2016 at 9:25 pm

    @Ruckus: Obviously they have to consider that they’re stuck with each other in a flying tin can and there aren’t a whole lot of options. But there are procedures in place for someone who causes a disturbance — even if it’s just having the police meet the plane when they land. I’m just questioning how far someone is allowed to go before his behavior meets their definition of “disturbance.”

  72. 72.

    TheMightyTrowel

    October 16, 2016 at 9:25 pm

    @jenn: Yeah I did that as soon as I landed. I doubt I’ll get more than platitudes in response…

  73. 73.

    Ruckus

    October 16, 2016 at 9:29 pm

    @Mingobat f/k/a Karen in GA:
    Agreed.

  74. 74.

    JJ

    October 16, 2016 at 9:32 pm

    @sigaba: @TheMightyTrowel: I missed your comment earlier. That sucks, what happened. And it sucks you got no support. I’m sorry.

  75. 75.

    nutella

    October 16, 2016 at 9:35 pm

    There was a case once in the US where an adult male passenger repeatedly groped the teenage boy in the seat next to him. Flight attendants told him to cut it out but DID NOT MOVE THE POOR KID TO A DIFFERENT SEAT so he did it some more. You’d think that moving the victim away from the molester would be something they COULD do easily enough.

    Molester was arrested when the plane landed but that didn’t help the underage victim during the flight.

  76. 76.

    hovercraft

    October 16, 2016 at 9:35 pm

    @BillinGlendaleCA:
    It is why conservatives bitch about “liberals” indoctrinating their kids in school. It’s the one place they can’t control who and what their kids are coming into contact with. This has been one of the biggest impetuses towards the homeschooling movement. They lose a lot of their young to normal society, when they go off to college. This is a “problem” both for groups like this and for evangelicals. The evangelicals have an easy solution to this problem, they can create places like Liberty, for the racists it’s not that easy, an openly racist college would never fly.

  77. 77.

    cmorenc

    October 16, 2016 at 9:38 pm

    Truthfully, most of us white folk who grew up in a small southern towns in the pre-civil rights era internalized the racist attitudes of our surrounding society as the correct order of society, and didn’t really begin to evolve away from it until our schools began to be integrated in the mid-1960s, and some of us didn’t make a complete break until we were away at college. Especially for those of us whose racial political attitudes evolved toward a firmly progressive direction decades ago, the racist mindset of our youth can seem so long ago and far away that it is a brutal shock when we unexpectedly come across a mirror into the ugly mindset of our youthful selves.

    In my case, it was a chance encounter down at the beach in 2009 with one of my best childhood friends, whom I had lost contact with some 40 years earlier when we each went away to different universities. Back in high school, the times we had discussed politics, our views were similarly quite conservative (I quite admired William F Buckley at the time). Back to our chance 2009 encounter – we quickly decided to head to a local bar and catch up on each other’s lives, families, etc, and had a pleasant couple of nostalgic hours together, without anything remotely involving political or social issue discussions. Before parting, we exchanged email addresses. My friend then included me in a listserv group of his friends – which often included conservative political rants (ok, so my old friend still seems to be a right-wing Republican and so are his friends) – but soon came some chain emails with overtly racist, offensive stuff about the Obamas (the one that really sticks to my mind is an attached photoshopped .jpg of MIchelle Obama morphed to look like a chimpanzee). What really bothered me though was when I contemplated why this friend I hadn’t seen in 40 years felt comfortable cutting me into a chain email list with folks sending such blatantly racist crap – holy cow! It’s because back then, I was just like them! Of course, my own political and racial views had evolved light-years distant from there in a progressive direction – and I did remember that I had been rather right-wing back in high school, but damn – having a mirror held up to see the ugly parts of my former self was a very uncomfortable experience.

    FORTUNATELY, people can change and evolve away from being racist. I did.

  78. 78.

    hovercraft

    October 16, 2016 at 9:39 pm

    @TheMightyTrowel:
    I thought Trump was in Trump Tower tonight, didn’t realize he ran down under to hide.
    Seriously people need to realize how very common it is for men to assume they have the right to touch us just because they feel like it.

  79. 79.

    hovercraft

    October 16, 2016 at 9:41 pm

    @Baud:
    Baud 2020
    I Never Grope!

  80. 80.

    stinger

    October 16, 2016 at 9:45 pm

    @TheMightyTrowel: Ugh. So sorry that happened to you.

  81. 81.

    Patricia Kayden

    October 16, 2016 at 9:47 pm

    Very nice story about someone completely revising their way of thinking at great personal cost (although it appears that his Father still talks to him).

    There is hope for the Trump kids yet. /s

  82. 82.

    Jeffro

    October 16, 2016 at 9:49 pm

    Just a quick note…to note…that Hillz can win this whole shebang EVEN WITHOUT Florida, Ohio, North Carolina, Iowa, AND Nevada (although she’s favored to win all of those, with Iowa being the closest)

    I do love that NYT electoral calculator!

  83. 83.

    Anne Laurie

    October 16, 2016 at 9:50 pm

    @TheMightyTrowel: Ugh. Hasn’t happened to me that I can remember, but when I notice such things happening to others (and I’m not that attentive, I’ll admit), using my best not-shouting-but projecting voice to say EXCUSE ME in my best imitation of Miss Manners, I’ve been able to cause a public groper/nuisance to find a sudden interest in their reading. That might work for you, if goddess forbid it happens again?

    In my experience these guys pull shit because they think they won’t be noticed, or called out… I think that’s why ‘best practice’ at the moment seems to be that a bystander should address the victim, in a friendly way. Theory being you don’t want to ‘challenge’ a macho idiot, but if they don’t consider themselves invisible they’re liable to go looking for an easier target.

  84. 84.

    Brachiator

    October 16, 2016 at 10:11 pm

    @Ruckus:When I say Metro, I include bus, rail and DASH systems. From Metro:

    For the past two years, Metro’s semi-annual Customer Satisfaction Survey has asked a question about sexual harassment: “In the past six months, while riding on Metro, have you experienced unwanted sexual contact including, but not limited to, comments, touching or exposure.” In the fall 2014 survey 22 percent of respondents answered “yes.”

    They take the problem seriously, and have followed through on the entire system.

  85. 85.

    Ian

    October 16, 2016 at 10:12 pm

    @Baud:
    I know we are all in the tank for you, but even you have to put a link on that shit.

  86. 86.

    TheMightyTrowel

    October 16, 2016 at 10:19 pm

    @Anne Laurie: Yes. all of this.

  87. 87.

    Brachiator

    October 16, 2016 at 10:19 pm

    @nutella:

    There was a case once in the US where an adult male passenger repeatedly groped the teenage boy in the seat next to him.

    One of the most recent bad cases involved a male passenger who assaulted an unaccompanied minor girl. This went on for a half hour before the passenger was moved and detained. He was later arrested.

    The airline was sued for not making sure that the minor was provided reasonable protection from predatory advances.

  88. 88.

    Gus diZerega

    October 16, 2016 at 10:27 pm

    @Trentrunner: You are far too harsh, Especially when combined with family affection ideologies are like parasites controlling minds rather then being the tools we use to try better to understand thew world. People are blind to alternatives. We have become their tools rather than they being ours.
    Moral factors can break them down, especially when combined with integrity. I commend this guy.

  89. 89.

    Tehanu

    October 16, 2016 at 10:27 pm

    @ShadeTail:

    He absolutely should be congratulated for coming out of that kind of childhood and still managing to learn better, because rising above where you came from is no small feat.

    Couldn’t agree more. I too thought of the Prodigal Son, and how he was greeted with a feast — a party , for chrissake. If you were in that kind of position and after all your struggle, everyone just said, “Well, about time, stupid,” chances are you’d wonder why you bothered.

  90. 90.

    Matt McIrvin

    October 16, 2016 at 10:40 pm

    @hovercraft:

    The evangelicals have an easy solution to this problem, they can create places like Liberty, for the racists it’s not that easy, an openly racist college would never fly.

    That was originally what the white evangelical schools were for, mostly. But the government eventually forced them to be officially non-discriminatory if they wanted tax-exempt status, which was one of the big outrages that motivated the religious right.

  91. 91.

    Matt McIrvin

    October 16, 2016 at 10:42 pm

    @cmorenc: I guess my experience is a bit unusual; the environment I encountered in college was more racist than what I was used to back home.

  92. 92.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    October 16, 2016 at 10:49 pm

    @Trentrunner:

    Most I can muster is a grudging “Glad you rediscovered your basic humanity, dude.”

    More like found threw the storm of the BS is parents buried him in.

  93. 93.

    Bupalos

    October 16, 2016 at 10:50 pm

    That’s a pretty inspirational story. I’m a little surprised at some of the at least slightly grudging reactions here. The journey this young man managed to make is far more than most ever do. If liberalism means anything, it means understanding that most people come by their bad right-wing lives and intolerant opinions through bad circumstance and ignorance. We would probably all do well to remember that and try to emulate the kid who invited Black to come in out of the cold.

  94. 94.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    October 16, 2016 at 10:56 pm

    @redshirt:

    Clearly, this is why Republicans need to ban all education.

    What do you think homeschooling is about. Their problem is like with this guy it falls apart at collage when they lose control of the information.

  95. 95.

    Ydobon

    October 16, 2016 at 11:11 pm

    @Prescott Cactus: Airplanes are unsafe at any speed, as you should know. Check out this …

  96. 96.

    Gvg

    October 16, 2016 at 11:23 pm

    I found the story interesting and think both young men are exceptional but what really surprised me is that the father didn’t disown him and apparently has been criticized by his own family and friends. Apparently his child actually matters to him. I kind of wonder what his future will hold.

  97. 97.

    joel hanes

    October 17, 2016 at 1:47 am

    Here’s a toast to those whose decency and thoughtfulness allow them to overcome early inculcation with bigotry and/or reactionary Republicanism :

    Fred Clark (slacktivist)
    John Cole (some shitty blog)
    Derek Black

    several regular commenters here, who have owned up to being Reagan supporters in those years.

    Who else ?

    My optimism, such as it is, is sustained by these reachable people.

  98. 98.

    Joey Maloney

    October 17, 2016 at 2:21 am

    @Baud: Better: “I’ve only ever groped for words”

  99. 99.

    TriassicSands

    October 17, 2016 at 2:24 am

    @BillinGlendaleCA:

    This is just one of countless reasons why I object so much to the characterization of college as nothing more than a credentialing machine to get a job. Obviously, if someone goes to an indoctrination factory like, say, Liberty University, where the point is to re-inforce a strict set of predetermined beliefs, then this kind of growth and change is unlikely. But in a university without an ideological or religious purpose, the real promise of college is that young people can become better people. That’s why a liberal arts education is so important and why turning our colleges and universities into nothing more than factories to feed corporations is such a tragic mistake. I’ve long believed that in an ideal world everyone would get a liberal arts degree first, before moving on to job preparation. We’ve lost sight of the fact that education and training are not the same thing. That’s why you can have doctors who have spent lots of time in a post-high school educational setting, and be extremely well-trained, but poorly educated.

    Derek Black had his mind opened, his horizons broadened, and his entire world enriched by getting away from the indoctrination of his parents and being exposed to the life-enhancing world of college/university life. In truth, his transition may be reasonably rare, since the power of 17 or 18 years of mind-closing indoctrination can be overwhelming. He deserves credit for his decision to leave the ugly, narrow world of bigotry behind. I doubt it was easy.

  100. 100.

    Msb

    October 17, 2016 at 3:02 am

    Welcome, Derek Black!

  101. 101.

    Patricia Kayden

    October 17, 2016 at 3:57 am

    @joel hanes: Charles Johnson of Little Green Footballs was Rightwing and now is progressive.

  102. 102.

    Procopius

    October 17, 2016 at 5:53 am

    @Trentrunner: Well, he had the common decency to hide his beliefs because he understood they would be distressing to people he like, so there’s that. I seem to remember there was some thirteen-year-old prodigy at CPAC or something like that who spouted reactionary ideology to the applause of crowds and then ten years or so later announced he had “grown” since those days. I found the story confused — start at age nineteen, mention age 27, than talking about college at age 21, and then somehow at some unspecified time and place he’s writing a letter announcing that he doesn’t believe the same as his father any more — too confusing. Maybe the original article is better written, but I’m too jaded to bother. I wonder how many people he converted to “the cause” before he had his Damascus Road moment.

  103. 103.

    Procopius

    October 17, 2016 at 5:59 am

    @Thoughtful David:

    Education opened his eyes.

    I’ve always distrusted that belief. Experience opened his eyes. Contact with reality opened his eyes. In my experience too many people speak of “education” when they mean “indoctrination.” Or “training.” There’s an old Sufi saying, “When the student is ready, the teacher will be there.” Many, many people never become ready. That this guy did just shows God is merciful. Sometimes.

  104. 104.

    sherparick

    October 17, 2016 at 7:23 am

    @Warren Terra: It seems like all the money that the right wing billionaires and millionaires are sending to fund these campaigns as being suctioned off into Cayman Island bank accounts. Well, I guess this is what happens when Ayn Rand’s doctrine of selfishness is blended with W.C. Fields’ bon mot “Never give a sucker an even break.”

  105. 105.

    sherparick

    October 17, 2016 at 7:25 am

    @Patricia Kayden: So was this blog’s founder, J.C. I remember in 2002-2003 when this was a “center-right” blog.

  106. 106.

    What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?

    October 17, 2016 at 9:44 am

    @Thoughtful David: I’m worried about what happens once people leave that environment…in some cases I don’t think the change “sticks”. I went to a high school with a very diverse student body – it was roughly 20% black, 10% hispanic, and we had a non-trivial number of recent Vietnam immigrants (this was in the mid-1980s). I never heard any of my friends say anything disparaging about black people while we were in high school (even after hours when we were hanging out away from school and there wasn’t a person of color anywhere around). Once we graduated though, and went to colleges where whiteness was pretty much all there was, they started talking about black people as stereotypes – thugs, criminals, welfare cheats, etc., borderline racist stuff. All I’m saying is once you’re out of that environment that opens your mind, the mind may re-close – maybe not completely but partially.

  107. 107.

    ShadeTail

    October 17, 2016 at 11:00 am

    @Davis X. Machina:

    There’s a whole political party based on the premise.

    True, but I like to think it’s the other guys and not us.

  108. 108.

    Stan

    October 17, 2016 at 12:27 pm

    @nutella: No, the molester should have been moved. Then beaten to a pulp. Then arrested

  109. 109.

    Stan

    October 17, 2016 at 12:30 pm

    @Matt McIrvin: My children have had similar experiences – college was vastly whiter and more bigoted than their high school.

  110. 110.

    The Other Bob

    October 17, 2016 at 1:16 pm

    @Warren Terra:

    That Orthodox Jewish friend – the one who organized weekly Shabbat dinners at which a diverse group of people simply shared their common humanity, in a carefully nonconfrontational manner – sounds like an amazing human being.

    YES! I want to be that guy.

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