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You are here: Home / Past Elections / Election 2016 / Polling Goodies, Plus Right for the Wrong Reasons

Polling Goodies, Plus Right for the Wrong Reasons

by Betty Cracker|  October 19, 20169:28 am| 195 Comments

This post is in: Election 2016, Hillary Clinton 2016, Open Threads, Politics, Republican Stupidity, General Stupidity, Our Failed Media Experiment

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New polling results released by Bloomberg today look good for Clinton:

bloomberg-poll-oct-19

An excerpt from the accompanying analysis:

Democrat Hillary Clinton leads Trump by 9 percentage points in the survey of likely voters, taken after a leaked video prompted a series of women to come forward alleging the Republican made unwanted sexual advances.

Support for Trump among critical groups of voters, including men and the less educated, has weakened in the campaign’s closing days, a trajectory that could translate into a landslide loss for Republicans in the Electoral College and setbacks in down-ballot races that will determine control of the House and Senate.

“This poll shows movement toward Clinton with all the right groups it takes to win—including men and those without a college degree,” said pollster J. Ann Selzer, who oversaw the survey ahead of the final debate Wednesday. “Their alignment with Clinton is a formidable change in the algebra.”

And to think I used to hate algebra!

In other good news from an unexpected quarter, Lil’ Marco is apparently immune to the Assange fanboi fever that has gripped the rest of the GOP:

Sen. Marco Rubio tells ABC News Republicans are making a mistake by jumping on allegedly hacked emails released by Wikileaks to criticize Hillary Clinton. In fact, he says he won’t talk about the hacked emails at all.

“As our intelligence agencies have said, these leaks are an effort by a foreign government to interfere with our electoral process and I will not indulge it,” Rubio tells ABC news. “Further, I want to warn my fellow Republicans who may want to capitalize politically on these leaks: Today it is the Democrats. Tomorrow it could be us.”

Now, we know Lil’ Marco lacks the courage of any conviction except his belief that he should be reelected to the no-show senate job he is on record disdaining. He has endorsed the presidential candidate he once rightly called out as a dangerous, unqualified conman in a transparent attempt to save his own bacon.

So why is he willing to indulge in truth-telling about WikiLeaks and its role as Putin’s cat’s paw as Russia attempts to interfere with a U.S. election? My guess is he’s seen polling that scares the bejeebus out of him and is attempting to micro-target specific groups in Florida.

Rubio is walking a tightrope over twin vats of boiling acid — the Trumpenproletariet in the Florida interior and panhandle on one side and reflexive Cold Warriors in South Florida on the other. He dares not offend the former by repudiating Trump and is attempting to curry favor with the latter by taking a shot at the revanchist Putin.

Lil’ Marco might also be optimistically calculating that when he runs against President Hillary Clinton in 2020, Putin might prefer to continue to deal with the incumbent rather than a callow, empty suit who built his political identity around a phony “Cuban exile” story. Ironically, Rubio may be the rare case where WikiLeaks apologists like Greenwald and Billmon, who like to tar fellow Democrats with the “red baiter” brush, might actually have a point.

But however he arrived at it, Rubio is correct to reject attempts by a foreign power to screw with our election. So is the nation of Ecuador, which has done us the favor of putting the proper name to that exercise while our own Beltway press mostly ignores Putin’s brazen power play in favor of hunting bits of salacious political gossip.

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Reader Interactions

195Comments

  1. 1.

    Frankensteinbeck

    October 19, 2016 at 9:35 am

    My phone won’t copy it. Someone please, please put up a link to a video of Trump trying to kiss a prepubescent girl on the mouth last night.

  2. 2.

    Davebo

    October 19, 2016 at 9:37 am

    IMO there’s absolutely no way Johnson gets 8% or Stein gets 3%. At best I’d say half that. So where does that 5 or 6 percent go?

  3. 3.

    bystander

    October 19, 2016 at 9:37 am

    I’m loving Trump’s new Crayola Yellow hair color. Contrasts nicely with the ochre foundation he’s having troweled on. Should attract the Pokemon voters.

  4. 4.

    prufrock

    October 19, 2016 at 9:39 am

    Judging by the stuff Trumpenproletariet wingnuts in my Facebook feed post, they already hate Lil Marco. Whether they hate him enough not to vote for him when actually confronted with an actual ballot is not something I can judge accurately.

    Edited to add: They mostly hate him because they perceive him as being weak. He’s not the strong daddy that they crave, which is why they love the short-fingered vulgarian so much.

  5. 5.

    Davebo

    October 19, 2016 at 9:39 am

    @Frankensteinbeck:

    This one?

  6. 6.

    bystander

    October 19, 2016 at 9:43 am

    It strikes me that if Trump loses and starts Trump TV, it could be a boon to us all. The networks will be hesitant to cram Trump down our throats once he’s a competitor and not a no-cost buffoon. With Trump sequestered in one place, he will be so much easier to avoid.

    This would be perfect if Kelly Anne gets her own show with Boris Epshteyn as her Ed McMahon.

  7. 7.

    msdc

    October 19, 2016 at 9:43 am

    “This poll shows movement toward Clinton with all the right groups it takes to win—including men and those without a college degree,” said pollster J. Ann Selzer

    “..and also, all the groups Clinton was already winning without.”

    FFS, Selzer.

  8. 8.

    PST

    October 19, 2016 at 9:44 am

    This is a little off the topic of the thread, but I would like to share this. I had a terrific evening at a fundraiser for Tammy Duckworth, and not just because I missed watching the Cubs lose. I did not know what a warm, funny, and inspiring speaker she is. In a small group, about a hundred or maybe a few more, she has the knack of making you feel like you are conversing with her. Al Franken, whom she met while recovering at Walter Reed, has become a friend and sent an introductory tape. Duckworth described how, when she was still an inpatient and was told that she could meet Don Rumsfeld, she asked “Is that an order?” But when Franken (who was not yet in politics) came to Walter Reed it was “pleasepleaseplease.” The highlight of the evening was a long talk by David Letterman, who met Duckworth through Franken and is a huge fan. I actually met him beforehand while getting a drink when I found him bellied up to the bar next to me. He was charming – in the practiced way of people who know how to give you a minute of full attention and then move on – and expressed pleasure that I have a kid at Ball State. He was as wry and funny as you would expect, very self-deprecating about his post-television life, and was effusive in his praise of our candidate. This is still a somewhat close contest here, although it is looking good, so consider contributing if you’re not tapped out yet. There are some Senate candidates this year that I find hard to swallow (cough! Evan Bayh, cough!) except that they are great improvements over their republican opponents. But Duckworth isn’t just part of the road to a Senate majority. She’s going to be a solid supporter of the democratic agenda and a remarkable inspiration.

  9. 9.

    Frankensteinbeck

    October 19, 2016 at 9:44 am

    @Davebo:
    Jesus. Fucking. Christ. He has his mouth an inch from hers when she figures out where he’s aiming and pulls away. That is horrifying.

  10. 10.

    Kay

    October 19, 2016 at 9:46 am

    Finally- a “think piece” that serves a practical purpose:

    The top 25 politicians, institutions, and media personalities that aided and abetted the rise of Donald Trump—and should never be absolved for it.

    I agree with the shunning idea. They deserve any and all career hits. Pile on.

    When they roll these people out on Morning Joe after this is over they should be jeered at. Accountability is key to a functioning democracy.

  11. 11.

    msdc

    October 19, 2016 at 9:46 am

    Also, this:

    where WikiLeaks apologists like Greenwald and Billmon, who like to tar fellow Democrats

    …assumes at least one fact not in evidence.

  12. 12.

    WereBear

    October 19, 2016 at 9:47 am

    @PST: We have donated to Tammy before: somehow, we felt she could go far.

  13. 13.

    Elizabelle

    October 19, 2016 at 9:48 am

    @Frankensteinbeck: Not gonna watch.

    Is the child small and blonde?

  14. 14.

    Frankensteinbeck

    October 19, 2016 at 9:50 am

    @Elizabelle:
    No, she’s black and he invites her on stage because she’s so ‘beautiful.’

  15. 15.

    Betty Cracker

    October 19, 2016 at 9:50 am

    @msdc: Good point.

  16. 16.

    Betty Cracker

    October 19, 2016 at 9:51 am

    @PST: Great story — thanks for sharing it. From what I’ve seen from afar, Duckworth seems like the real deal.

  17. 17.

    catclub

    October 19, 2016 at 9:56 am

    No, Rubio in this case is right for the right reasons, but since he is the enemy, you make up something.

  18. 18.

    Elizabelle

    October 19, 2016 at 9:57 am

    @Kay: Really incomplete list.

    NBC and particularly its odious employees like Morning Joke and Meeka belong in the top ten. Jeff Zucker, NBC emeritus.

    Even more than the Trump children, because NBC and MSNBC gave Trump crucial oxygen when he needed it. Jeff Zucker should be on the list (and yeah, he’s at CNN now, but he was instrumental in Trump’s rise, and he’s made millions dumbing down news content — the Today show, which just lost Billy Bush as its 9:00 am host? Puh-leeze.)

    And I think it’s a chickenshit list. Who doesn’t think Sean Hannity is an idiot?

    Maybe the problem is, you need 50 slots on the list, or 75 and above.

  19. 19.

    hovercraft

    October 19, 2016 at 9:58 am

    In other good news from an unexpected quarter, Lil’ Marco is apparently immune to the Assange fanboi fever that has gripped the rest of the GOP:

    Marco is still the darling of the Neocons, and they have been tearing their hair out over the GOP’s sudden embrace of Putin, even though the wikileaks leaks have targeted Clinton, they are up in arms about Putin trying to influence the American election. Weird I know. Since Lil Marco wants to be their golden boy again in 2020 he wants to stay on their good side, and they want him to retain his seat, by then he will be more seasoned, have learned to not repeat himself and by then the contrast of Hillary with standard presidential aging, but as a woman, will be huge with Marco. Also too, I’m sure embracing a Putin acolyte would not endear him to the republican part of the Cuban American community.

  20. 20.

    Gin & Tonic

    October 19, 2016 at 9:59 am

    I whined about this quote downstairs – it’s not fucking algebra, it is simple arithmetic.

  21. 21.

    PPCLI

    October 19, 2016 at 10:02 am

    So why is he willing to indulge in truth-telling about WikiLeaks and its role as Putin’s cat’s paw as Russia attempts to interfere with a U.S. election? My guess is he’s seen polling that scares the bejeebus out of him and is attempting to micro-target specific groups in Florida.

    It could be that he’s actually sincere – that he is appalled by a foreign government trying to influence the election. But it is also true that any discussions of Wikileaks are discussions of the presidential election, which he is desperate to avoid, so this stance is in his interest.

  22. 22.

    Betty Cracker

    October 19, 2016 at 10:02 am

    @catclub: You might trust that smarmy, shape-shifting prick to act on principle. As a constituent who has observed his entire political career, I don’t.

  23. 23.

    Anonymous At Work

    October 19, 2016 at 10:03 am

    The old school Cuban voters in Florida are all Communist refugees, in various ways and for various reasons including some legitimate ones. They see a party backing Russia and its former KGB President and they’d vote against that party.

  24. 24.

    PPCLI

    October 19, 2016 at 10:04 am

    Support for Trump among critical groups of voters, including men and the less educated, has weakened in the campaign’s closing days,

    When your whole campaign is based on projecting the idea “Vote for me, since for reasons I won’t document or go into, I’m a winner and I’ll win for you too”, you are in trouble if you start thrashing around and looking like a loser.

  25. 25.

    Gin & Tonic

    October 19, 2016 at 10:07 am

    @Anonymous At Work: There’s also a pretty good number of Northeastern and Midwestern retirees of Eastern European origin who are strongly anti-Putin.

  26. 26.

    Barbara

    October 19, 2016 at 10:11 am

    @PPCLI: It could be that Rubio’s most natural constituency, over 45 year old Cuban-Americans, do not see Russian interference in American elections with the nonchalance that the media and other Republicans apparently do. It is safe to say that for many years, Cuba’s continued existence as a sustainable state under Fidel Castro was made possible by Russia. Whether opportunistic or sincere, it’s a good thing that Rubio will not let himself be the Cuban apologist for a Russian enabled Trump. Would that Ivanka Trump and her husband could say something similar with regard to the shameless misogyny and anti-semitism that permeates the Trump campaign.

  27. 27.

    El Caganer

    October 19, 2016 at 10:11 am

    While it’s right that everybody should be concerned about the Russians’ screwing with our election (assuming that’s what is actually happening), it’s a bit much to react with jowl-quivering outrage. The good old US of A is the country that raised screwing with other countries’ elections to an art form. To me, the bigger problem is with Our Liberal Media, who show no inclination to do any actual journalism by doing things like investigating where these leaks come from, whether anything in them is credible, why are they being released, etc., etc. Instead, all OLM does is assume that everything released is true and then immediately proceed to blather about the effects such “information” might have on their beloved horse race.

  28. 28.

    Betty Cracker

    October 19, 2016 at 10:12 am

    @Anonymous At Work: Exactly right. But I have some prime swampland to sell anyone who doubts for a second that Rubio would sing a different tune if WikiLeaks had published anything truly damaging.

  29. 29.

    Hoodie

    October 19, 2016 at 10:13 am

    @PPCLI: My impression is that Marco generally knows what the right thing is, he’s just too lazy, ambitious and/or gutless to do it. It’s relatively safe for him to go after Russian hacking because no one other than Trump would defend Putin. Marco’s biggest problem is that he rose in GOP politics as a “promising hispanic” at time when they decided to go full stormfront. He probably wouldn’t have gotten anywhere in Dem politics because he’s nothing special. I’ve seen several republicans whom I suspect really don’t buy into the whole Herrenvolk program, but they chose to engage in GOP politics because it was the easier career path, whether because the GOP is dominant in their regions or because there was too much competition on the Dem side.

  30. 30.

    WereBear

    October 19, 2016 at 10:14 am

    @Kay: Accountability is key to a functioning democracy.

    Agreed.

    I did wonder just what it would take. Turns out, it takes their Presidential nominee to be a man without a single redeeming quality. Now, that is very difficult. John Wayne Gacy, the famous serial killer, did paint clowns, after all.

    But Trump would be rejected by an action movie screenplay. “You have to humanize the villain more. This isn’t realistic!”

  31. 31.

    hovercraft

    October 19, 2016 at 10:17 am

    @Kay:
    I think Morning Joe and Roger Ailes should also be on that list.

  32. 32.

    Barbara

    October 19, 2016 at 10:18 am

    @El Caganer: I am not saying you are wrong, but one strong recent example would go a long way to making your assertion more credible. The U.S. has wrongly interfered in the internal affairs of countries — Chile, Iran, El Salvador, Guatemala and Nicaragua come to mind immediately — but these were 20 years ago, and there is recognition across a lot of the political spectrum that such interference was at a minimum counterproductive, and mostly wrong.

  33. 33.

    schrodinger's cat

    October 19, 2016 at 10:18 am

    @Kay: He leaves out Patrick Healey and Maggie Haberman at NYT and Judy Woodruff at PBS and other respected members of the MSM. Its these MSM types that gave him the cover of legitimacy.

  34. 34.

    The Moar You Know

    October 19, 2016 at 10:18 am

    “Further, I want to warn my fellow Republicans who may want to capitalize politically on these leaks: Today it is the Democrats. Tomorrow it could be us.”

    Integrity born of selfish interests is the only kind of integrity I trust.

    And once this election is over, I’d sure like to see our #1 foreign policy priority be exacting some payback from the fucking Russians for this.

  35. 35.

    hovercraft

    October 19, 2016 at 10:19 am

    @Davebo:
    Fortunately I can’t watch the video. The man is a pig and a predator.

  36. 36.

    Thoroughly Pizzled

    October 19, 2016 at 10:22 am

    @hovercraft: I haven’t paid much attention to David Brooks this cycle so I don’t know what he’s said about Trump, but I’d put him on the list regardless.

    John McCain, Kelly Ayotte as well.

  37. 37.

    Brachiator

    October 19, 2016 at 10:22 am

    Lil’ Marco might also be optimistically calculating that when he runs against President Hillary Clinton in 2020, Putin might prefer to continue to deal with the incumbent rather than a callow, empty suit who built his political identity around a phony “Cuban exile” story.

    Who knows whether Putin will be around in 2020. But apart from that, if he likes Trump, he is clearly partial to empty suits.

  38. 38.

    schrodinger's cat

    October 19, 2016 at 10:22 am

    @bystander: He is not going to form his own network, its too much work.

  39. 39.

    schrodinger's cat

    October 19, 2016 at 10:23 am

    @Brachiator: Trump is more of a fat suit than an empty suit in my opinion.

  40. 40.

    Betty Cracker

    October 19, 2016 at 10:23 am

    @Barbara: I don’t think we’re out of the elections-rigging business by any means, though we’re more subtle and less Machiavellian about it these days. But it’s possible to find all tampering incidents outrageous. Condemning Russian meddling does not equal condoning US misdeeds, and it’s kinda weird that some folks automatically make that assumption.

  41. 41.

    Ruckus

    October 19, 2016 at 10:26 am

    @Barbara:
    OK you are right, for the last 20 yrs. Except for those 8 between 2000 and 2008. We interfered a lot in a couple of countries during that time. A whole fucking lot. Elections may have been the least of the interference though.

  42. 42.

    sparrow

    October 19, 2016 at 10:27 am

    I have not been here in a long time (not since there was a general clamor to primary Sanders from the right, fer fucks sake), but color me SO fucking unsurprised that you all buy the line that the leaked emails are “Putin interfering” with the election. Jesus H. Christ you’re as bad as my yokel right-wing relatives you think 9/11 was an inside job. As long as your tribal leaders tell you it’s so, it’s so. Apparently what the emails actually show is of no importance, since Hillary could eat babies on live TV and you would still sing the “most progressive EVER” song.

    Any of you around here with actual progressive values are going to find it really hard to stomach president Hillary. The emails show what those of us paying attention have known for some time: she’s no fucking progressive. She’s a neocon who doesn’t want to stick a wand up your vagina. That’s about it. The fact that I have to vote for this piece of shit is something I will be pissed about for the rest of my life.

  43. 43.

    hovercraft

    October 19, 2016 at 10:28 am

    @Betty Cracker:
    This.
    @PPCLI:
    I’m not a constituent, but from everything I’ve seen and heard, Rubio would sellout his own mother to get ahead. You don’t need to take it from me, this man railed against Trump, promising ti drive across the country on his own to stop him because he was too dangerous and ignorant, and a con man, then turned around and kissed his ass. Is there a mentor or friend he hasn’t stabbed in the back in his quest of his next big goal? It’s one thing to attack your enemies, but if your friends can’t count on you, who can?

  44. 44.

    Walker

    October 19, 2016 at 10:28 am

    @Kay:

    Tweety is not on that list. Lame.

  45. 45.

    Thoroughly Pizzled

    October 19, 2016 at 10:30 am

    @sparrow: Glad to have you on board!

  46. 46.

    Jeffro

    October 19, 2016 at 10:30 am

    I’d be shocked if half of Johnson’s support didn’t fizzle out and show up, roughly evenly, back in Trump’s and Clinton’s columns. 4% for him seems about right.

    Would also be shocked to see Stein clear 2%, period. Not sure where that 1%-1.5% goes, but I can see half drifting back to Clinton and half not showing up at all.

    This has been another exciting episode of “Jeffro Unskews the Polls For Ya”, lol

  47. 47.

    Barbara

    October 19, 2016 at 10:31 am

    @Ruckus: I would like to know in what countries’ elections we interfered between 2000 and 2008 not because I am trying to be an apologist but because I want to know. Of course we interfered in Iraq and Afghanistan. I know that we would like to have interfered in Palestine, did not, and then refused to accept the results of an election that we advocated that they hold. A greater example of diplomatic and policy incompetence on the part of Rice and Bush would be hard to find. Seriously, I would like to know.

  48. 48.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    October 19, 2016 at 10:31 am

    Kelly O’Donnell arguing that inviting Obama’s brother makes sense because Trump sees Clinton as a continuation of the Obama administration.

    ETA: Now she’s solemnly intoning that it is astonishing that there will not be a handshake between Bill Clinton and Melania Trump, as is long-standing tradition between candidates’ spouses at these debates. Yes, I’m sure everyone remembers Michelle and The Lady Ann shaking hand in 2012. It was a decisive moment in the campaign, and an important moment in the History of Our Republic.

  49. 49.

    Matt McIrvin

    October 19, 2016 at 10:34 am

    @Davebo: There have been surveys; Stein’s voters mostly break toward Clinton as a second choice and Johnson’s are about fifty-fifty. But they could also just not vote.

  50. 50.

    Jeffro

    October 19, 2016 at 10:34 am

    @Kay: This piece is excellent, although a) it’s not fair that the Trump kids + Kushner take up 4 whole spots when there is so much blame to go around, and b) really, McConnell deserves a much higher ranking. The Turtle, more than anyone, enabled this sheer rage-fueled unleashed-id nonsense by setting the #1 goal as ‘making Obama a 1-term president’ and then acting accordingly, up to and including the Garland blockade.

  51. 51.

    schrodinger's cat

    October 19, 2016 at 10:35 am

    @sparrow: You are back, we have been awaiting your return to enlighten us about Hitlery. I must congratulate you on your powers of persuasion.

  52. 52.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    October 19, 2016 at 10:36 am

    @sparrow: something I will be pissed about for the rest of my life.

    Good. Choke on that rage, dipshit.

  53. 53.

    Elizabelle

    October 19, 2016 at 10:37 am

    @schrodinger’s cat: Yup. It’s a really chickenshit list.

    Incomplete.

  54. 54.

    Jeffro

    October 19, 2016 at 10:37 am

    @Matt McIrvin: That’s….uncanny (see #45)…I must have been reading the same things you’ve been seeing. Great minds and all that.

  55. 55.

    amk

    October 19, 2016 at 10:37 am

    @sparrow: The sacrifices that the ‘progressives’ have to make for plain old common sense and self-preservation. It’s just horrible.

  56. 56.

    nonynony

    October 19, 2016 at 10:38 am

    @Davebo:

    IMO there’s absolutely no way Johnson gets 8% or Stein gets 3%. At best I’d say half that. So where does that 5 or 6 percent go?

    Some split off and vote for Clinton or Trump. Many of them probably stay home – it’s hard to get the gumption up to vote for a protest candidate unless you’re a habitual voter who shows up at every election and always casts a ballot.

    Looking at the polling averages rather than a single poll, Stein is averaging 2.4% at RCP while Johnson is averaging 6.7% (I use RCP because it gives me the most pessimistic model that I’ve found for my personal preferred outcomes). I suspect that Stein will do little better than her run in 2012 – she got less than 1% in ’12 and I suspect she won’t even cross the milk threshold and hit 2% this cycle. Johnson did just under 1% in 2012 and I’d assume that as the real protest candidate this cycle he should overperform his 2012 performance – but I still have a real problem seeing him do more than triple his ’12 performance – I suspect he’ll get 3%. Maybe 4%.

  57. 57.

    MazeDancer

    October 19, 2016 at 10:38 am

    Arizona! (Sorry if everyone has already celebrated this, but just heard) Hillary ahead 5 points in Arizona!

    Arizona Republic/Morrison/Cronkite News Poll:
    HRC: 39
    DJT: 34
    Stein: 6 (May Bernie’s visit reduce that)
    Johnson: 1 (possibly because they border NM and, thus, know better?)

    Guess that “internal polling” thing is real and McCain knew this last week. As did Hillary’s campaign sending in all the surrogates.

    May all the long lines for early voting in Georgia produce similar welcome results.

  58. 58.

    Betty Cracker

    October 19, 2016 at 10:39 am

    @sparrow: Hilarious that you think WE sound like 9/11 truthers; you should hear yourself. And BTW, I don’t think anyone here expects HRC to be the most progressive president EVAR, so you can tuck that line of bullshit back in your colon (from whence it came). I expect she’ll be a bog standard Democrat on policy in the mold of Obama. Who is a goddamn top 5 president, in case you didn’t notice.

  59. 59.

    nonynony

    October 19, 2016 at 10:40 am

    @sparrow: Do you have any actual examples of “neoconservative” policy being pushed in the hacked e-mails you’re discussing? All of the reporting I’ve seen around them appears to be about the politics revealed in the e-mails rather than policy, so a pointer to anything revealing neoconservative policies that she’s secretly pushing while publicly running on one of the most progressive platforms we’ve seen in a Democratic candidate since I’ve been following politics would be appreciated.

  60. 60.

    schrodinger's cat

    October 19, 2016 at 10:40 am

    @Elizabelle: He is afraid of naming and shaming his colleagues.

  61. 61.

    amk

    October 19, 2016 at 10:41 am

    @Kay: And he puts “Republican primary voters” aka da base in the last? Nonsense.

  62. 62.

    Jeffro

    October 19, 2016 at 10:41 am

    @Hoodie:

    Marco’s biggest problem is that he rose in GOP politics as a “promising hispanic” at time when they decided to go full stormfront. He probably wouldn’t have gotten anywhere in Dem politics because he’s nothing special. I’ve seen several republicans whom I suspect really don’t buy into the whole Herrenvolk program, but they chose to engage in GOP politics because it was the easier career path, whether because the GOP is dominant in their regions or because there was too much competition on the Dem side.

    His Hispanic background isn’t at issue, even with the GOP being so anti-immigration – you’re allowed to be different as long as you tow the party line completely. His mistake (also known as a rare moment of responsibility) was when he tried to get immigration reform through…totally anathema to the GOP base, plus it meant semi-working-with Obama. Unh uh. It’s the same thing with Carson and Fiorina – their race and gender, respectively, didn’t DQ them from consideration in the GOP because they were pretty well in line with the party’s “thinking”, such as it is, and because both see Obama & Clinton as history’s greatest monsters.

  63. 63.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    October 19, 2016 at 10:42 am

    @Betty Cracker: clearly you haven’t read Glenn Greenwald 7,000 word evisceration of Clinton that shows how that email from where Neera Tanden tells Pedesta she hates Lessig is a clear demonstration that she can’t wait to go to war with Iran. Maybe I’ll cut and paste of a few of his longer updates and then maybe the scales will fall from your fucking eyes, Sheople.

  64. 64.

    Gin & Tonic

    October 19, 2016 at 10:45 am

    @sparrow:

    leaked emails

    Neither John Podesta’s nor the DNC’s e-mails were “leaked” – they were stolen (for obscure historical reasons I don’t like to use the word “hacked.”) Who stole them and how did Assange get them? That is an interesting question, no?

  65. 65.

    Betty Cracker

    October 19, 2016 at 10:46 am

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: I like Lessig’s response. What a sell-out!

  66. 66.

    hovercraft

    October 19, 2016 at 10:46 am

    @sparrow:

    I have not been here in a long time (not since there was a general clamor to primary Sanders from the right, fer fucks sake), but color me SO fucking unsurprised that you all buy the line that the leaked emails are “Putin interfering” with the election. Jesus H. Christ you’re as bad as my yokel right-wing relatives you think 9/11 was an inside job.

    Perhaps you should continue your exile, we wouldn’t want you to sully your superior intellect with the naive musings of us yokels.
    Move along now.

  67. 67.

    Nom de Plume

    October 19, 2016 at 10:47 am

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Glenn Greenwald 7,000 word evisceration

    Glad to hear he’s cut down on the length of his columns somewhat.

  68. 68.

    hovercraft

    October 19, 2016 at 10:49 am

    @Jeffro:
    True, what I’m rooting for now is for Clinton to get over 50%. The media is already preparing the no mandate because she beat a weak candidate, and even the it was only be a plurality bs. If she gets a majority then she can at least throw that back at them.

  69. 69.

    geg6

    October 19, 2016 at 10:51 am

    @sparrow:

    Then don’t. I have read the emails out so far. I see nothing alarming about them. Pray tell, what, exactly, has you so exercised over them?

  70. 70.

    Kay

    October 19, 2016 at 10:52 am

    @amk:

    I agree with that. Voters are individuals. They have as much responsibility as power which as a practical matter is “not that much” as individuals. Paul Ryan represents + 600k people. He has more power so has more responsibility. There’s responsibility that goes along with influence. That’s why the media figures have more, too.

    It’s not all fun and games being a bigshot! They have more responsibility :)

  71. 71.

    hovercraft

    October 19, 2016 at 10:52 am

    New Clinton Fundraising Tool Auto-Donates Every Time Trump Tweets

  72. 72.

    GregB

    October 19, 2016 at 10:53 am

    I have it on authority that John Podesta gets his recipes from Paul Wolfowitz, Doug Feith and Bill Kristol.

    Suck on it libs.

  73. 73.

    nonynony

    October 19, 2016 at 10:53 am

    His Hispanic background isn’t at issue…It’s the same thing with Carson and Fiorina

    I mean, it is an issue. In that none of the three of them actually had a chance of winning the primary race.

    The GOP is made up of factions. Those factions have become more and more consolidated in the post-W GOP. One of the things that many of us thought for a long time was that the apparently largest faction – the Real True Christian faction – was more divided than it was united. Turns out we were right – a sizable chunk of the Real True Christian faction is actually the Racist And Misogynist White Guys Using Their Religion To Disguise Their Bigotry faction. And they have more in common with the Openly White Nationalist faction than they do with the rest of the Real True Christian faction when push comes to shove.

    It’s not that a non-white guy couldn’t win the primary, it’s just that they’re going to need to be really exceptional. The kind of person who can get 2/3rds of the GOP base to rally behind them and ignore the rest of the gaggle of candidates that Citizen’s United money and grifting potential bring to the race. And right now the GOP bench is really shallow when it comes to politics – their national politicians are actually really bad at the whole “politics” thing in ways that surprise me. Mitch McConnell is probably the most effective politician the GOP has and his only skill appears to be the ability to say no to anything and raise a lot of money.

  74. 74.

    Jesse

    October 19, 2016 at 10:53 am

    @sparrow: Hmm, what’s the appropriate response here?

    Oh, wait, I know.

    Fuck you.

    Before you start singing your little song about how Hillary Clinton is Satan, show me something real from the emails, not just you sputtering about how she’s a “neocon” because she, like every fucking president ever, is aware that our country has a military.

    If you honestly think there’s no difference between Hillary Clinton and the people who lied their asses off to topple Saddam and keep the permanent shit-show going, go ahead and vote Stein. She’s just about on your intellectual level, after all.

    You’re still butthurt about Bernie Sanders, but everyone else is being “tribal”. Got it.

  75. 75.

    trollhattan

    October 19, 2016 at 10:54 am

    @sparrow:

    The fact that I have to vote for this piece of shit is something I will be pissed about for the rest of my life.

    A long time for a 14Y.O. to be choking on bile, don’t ya think?

  76. 76.

    hovercraft

    October 19, 2016 at 10:57 am

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:
    Kelly O is very much an apologist for the GOP, she is always justifying their behavior, especially Ryan and Pence, they are such good men who are serious about their religions and policy, put in an impossible position.

  77. 77.

    low-tech cyclist

    October 19, 2016 at 10:57 am

    Ecuador, which has done us the favor of putting the proper name to that exercise while our own Beltway press mostly ignores Putin’s brazen power play in favor of hunting bits of salacious political gossip.

    Stuff that benefits Republicans is just ‘politics,’ as far as the media is concerned, even when it involves lawbreaking. (See Libby, Scooter.) But stuff that might possibly benefit Dems is examined microscopically for possible flaws in the Optics that might Raise Questions, even if it’s well within the law, and not even particularly unethical.

  78. 78.

    amk

    October 19, 2016 at 10:58 am

    @Kay: Nope, the voters brought out this shitstain on to the world politics on their own, despite multiple warnings, some of them from their own party. They own this and deserve the first prize.

  79. 79.

    Hal

    October 19, 2016 at 10:59 am

    Meh. Bill Clinton had less than 50% popular vote his first win and went on to do pretty well for himself. I’m not buying Stein or Johnson getting what they are polling at right now. IIRC, Stein ended up with .5 last time around after polling 1 to 1.5. Johnson, given this election year, might do better, though.

  80. 80.

    Another Scott

    October 19, 2016 at 11:01 am

    @Davebo: Agreed. I would assume that the Johnson/Stein vote will be X% HRC, Y% Donnie, Z% NoVote rather than them getting those numbers. I’d like to think that X >>Y > Z, but who knows.

    Nader got 0.56% of the vote in 2008, Johnson got 0.99% of the vote in 2012. Those strike me as more likely numbers (rather than, say, Perot’s 1992 18.9%).

    We’ll see.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  81. 81.

    Fair Economist

    October 19, 2016 at 11:01 am

    @El Caganer:

    While it’s right that everybody should be concerned about the Russians’ screwing with our election (assuming that’s what is actually happening), it’s a bit much to react with jowl-quivering outrage. The good old US of A is the country that raised screwing with other countries’ elections to an art form.

    Au contraire. It’s having a HUGE fit about this that could get opponents the moral authority and public acknowledgement to stop the US from doing it as well.

  82. 82.

    danielx

    October 19, 2016 at 11:01 am

    Kinda OT, but – HRC, unlike Obama, is not and will not be under any illusions about “bipartisanship” and “reaching out” to the opposition. Obama wasted the better part of his first term in efforts to work with Republicans under the assumption that there were at least some Republicans who were interested in actually getting shit done that would be in the best interests of the country. Exhibit #1 being the ACA, most of which was lifted wholesale from Heritage Foundation proposals. Hillary will be more realistic, knowing from day one that most of her opponents would prefer to see her in a hole in the ground or failing that in a prison cell.

    On the other hand, assuming she is elected (knock on wood), look for her inaugural speech to include Lincolnesque platitudes about binding up political wounds and so forth, for all the good it will do.

  83. 83.

    liberal

    October 19, 2016 at 11:01 am

    @hovercraft: Funny how they didn’t say that when whatshisface actually lost the popular vote in 2000.

  84. 84.

    catclub

    October 19, 2016 at 11:02 am

    @The Moar You Know:

    I’d sure like to see our #1 foreign policy priority be exacting some payback from the fucking Russians for this.

    No, no, no. That is taking Trump’s approach to policy. How many innocent people would you like to have die so we can exact some payback against Russia?

    If it is good for the US do it. Otherwise, no.
    We need Russian support for of the Iran deal. We need Russian cooperation over Syria.

  85. 85.

    liberal

    October 19, 2016 at 11:03 am

    @danielx:

    Obama wasted the better part of his first term in efforts to work with Republicans under the assumption that there were at least some Republicans who were interested in actually getting shit done that would be in the best interests of the country.

    You might exaggerate a little, but AFAICT Obama did appear to believe that there’d be at least some good-faith efforts by some Republicans.

    Such thoughts were strangely out of touch. ISTM that that was pretty much all over by 1994.

  86. 86.

    lamh36

    October 19, 2016 at 11:04 am

    Ugh…i am so ready to get this thing over with…this election season seems like the LONGEST IN FUQN HISTORY

    Anyway here’s something to get ya through the day…it’s both Fabulous and Sad…Don’t leave us Michelle!!!

    Michelle Obama WERQs a STUNNING Atelier Versace at her final state dinner like a diva making a curtain call | Tom Lorenzo

  87. 87.

    liberal

    October 19, 2016 at 11:04 am

    @catclub: Why is supporting jihadists in Syria good for the US? Or helping S.A. bomb the living shit out of Yemen?

  88. 88.

    oldgold

    October 19, 2016 at 11:04 am

    Historically, as election day approaches, third party candidate’s numbers shrink. I do not think that is a given this year.

    Stein and Johnson’s numbers might actually improve, if on the very eve of the election it is clear Hillary is going to win. Then, it is a cost free protest vote. That is very appealing to a lot of voters this year.

    On the other hand, if for some reason the race tightens, Stein and Johnson’s numbers will collapse. numbers will collapse.

    There is a new PRRI poll published this morning that shows Hillary up 15 points in a two way race.
    http://www.prri.org/research/prri-brookings-october-19-2016-presidential-election-horserace-clinton-trump/

  89. 89.

    trollhattan

    October 19, 2016 at 11:05 am

    @catclub:
    OTOH how many more hunks of Ukraine would President Trump be sanguine about Vlad gobbling up?

  90. 90.

    liberal

    October 19, 2016 at 11:06 am

    @Fair Economist: Would be nice to think so, but seems unlikely. Hypocrisy re foreign policy knows no bounds.

  91. 91.

    liberal

    October 19, 2016 at 11:06 am

    @trollhattan: OTOH why is it in the US’s interest to care?

  92. 92.

    hovercraft

    October 19, 2016 at 11:07 am

    @Betty Cracker:

    This is the first comment on the page, it resembles me.

    I would not be surprised if Lessig published this classy response, then went to dinner with his wife and said “Fuck Tanden, Podesta, and that crew. Scumbags.”

    And that would be fine, and is still classy. Because we should be allowed to make different statements privately, and publicly. And we should accept that this is not always duplicity. It is just having a working filter. People without filters are sociopaths and Trump.

    As humans, we need and deserve separate outlets for our raw anger, and for our rational, thought-out, and public expressions.

  93. 93.

    trollhattan

    October 19, 2016 at 11:07 am

    @lamh36:
    Friend’s older daughter, George Washington University student, got to have lunch at the White House yesterday with the president and Italian PM. Lucky girl!

  94. 94.

    trollhattan

    October 19, 2016 at 11:11 am

    @liberal:
    If you have to ask….

  95. 95.

    low-tech cyclist

    October 19, 2016 at 11:11 am

    @WereBear:

    Turns out, it takes their Presidential nominee to be a man without a single redeeming quality. Now, that is very difficult. John Wayne Gacy, the famous serial killer, did paint clowns, after all.

    But Trump would be rejected by an action movie screenplay. “You have to humanize the villain more. This isn’t realistic!”

    You may be familiar with what Terry Pratchett’s character Granny Weatherwax once said: “Sin, young man, is when you treat people like things.”

    Well, Trump treats other people like things. Always. Without exception. I’m not sure he knows any other way. By Granny Weatherwax’ definition, Donald Trump is the epitome, the perfection, of sin.

    Maybe he’s the Antichrist.

  96. 96.

    danielx

    October 19, 2016 at 11:13 am

    @sparrow:

    Any of you around here with actual progressive values are going to find it really hard to stomach president Hillary. The emails show what those of us paying attention have known for some time: she’s no fucking progressive. She’s a neocon who doesn’t want to stick a wand up your vagina. That’s about it. The fact that I have to vote for this piece of shit is something I will be pissed about for the rest of my life.

    If you haven’t yet learned that life in general and politics in particular includes a whole series of choices of the lesser evil, the rest of your life is going to be one long series of disappointments and a lot harder than it needs to be. There aren’t enough drugs in the western hemisphere to assuage my disappointment with many of the policies of every president we’ve had since I was old enough to know who they were, but I accept small victories when and where I can find them.

    Shorter: grow the fuck up.

  97. 97.

    catclub

    October 19, 2016 at 11:13 am

    @liberal: I don’t think I said either of those things in my post.

  98. 98.

    Chyron HR

    October 19, 2016 at 11:14 am

    @sparrow:

    The fact that I have to vote for this piece of shit is something I will be pissed about for the rest of my life.

    The good news is you don’t “have to vote for” her, because she’s winning in a landslide without you.

    The bad news is that this disproves all the Bernie Baby nonsense about being “the base” and “the future” of the party, and you won’t get to come back in 2024 and demand that your primary votes should count for more than a bunch of dumb n-words in red states. Sorry!

  99. 99.

    catclub

    October 19, 2016 at 11:15 am

    @low-tech cyclist:

    Maybe he’s the Antichrist.

    And all along the wacko far right were insisting it was Obama. Ironic.

  100. 100.

    Pest Bog Mummy, Frakensteinbeck

    October 19, 2016 at 11:17 am

    @danielx:

    Exhibit #1 being the ACA, most of which was lifted wholesale from Heritage Foundation proposals.

    Utterly false. It took one thing from the Heritage Foundation proposal: The mandate. You think they included two thousand pages of insurance regulations? Nosiree bob.

  101. 101.

    catclub

    October 19, 2016 at 11:19 am

    another item on polling – the overall case in 2012 and 2016. Compare and contrast. It looks better for Clinton in 2016 than it did for Obama in 2012.

  102. 102.

    catclub

    October 19, 2016 at 11:22 am

    @low-tech cyclist: Trump is another aspect of the GOP problems with consent and empathy.

  103. 103.

    Matt McIrvin

    October 19, 2016 at 11:24 am

    @Davebo: Also, I think the numbers for both Johnson and Stein there are a little high as current polling goes. Johnson usually gets about 6-7% and Stein about 1-2%.

    The rule that third-party candidates always underperform their polling isn’t always true. There seems to be a threshold of success and media coverage beyond which the polling is actually accurate. Perot actually slightly outperformed his Gallup numbers, if I recall correctly. The polling on John Anderson was about right in the end, too, though he had faded in the home stretch. Even Nader in 2000 polled more or less accurately, and he was down around 3%.

    My wild-ass guess is that Jill Stein will not break 1%, but we may be seeing good numbers for Gary Johnson.

  104. 104.

    nonynony

    October 19, 2016 at 11:27 am

    @danielx:

    Obama wasted the better part of his first term in efforts to work with Republicans under the assumption that there were at least some Republicans who were interested in actually getting shit done that would be in the best interests of the country. Exhibit #1 being the ACA, most of which was lifted wholesale from Heritage Foundation proposals.

    This is actually not true on the ACA part. Not just because as pointed out above that the Heritage Foundation plan is very different in everything but the mandate, but also because he wasn’t trying to make Republicans happy. He was trying to make Max Baucus and Joe Lieberman happy along with a few other Dems from conservative areas. He was hoping to get some bi-partisan buy-in on the plan, but even if he acknowledged that that was impossible he STILL needed his own Democratic coalition on board for it and had to make concessions and changes to bring them on. And IIRC it was mostly Baucus who kept thinking that he could get Susan Collins and/or Olympia Snow on board if they could just make this tweak or that tweak – when it became obvious that they would say no no matter what he eventually gave in.

    It’s true that Obama reached out to Republicans and gave them every opportunity to smack his hand away, but the reason why things moved slowly was on the Democrats in Congress – mostly in the Senate. It’s the problem of having an “big tent” with a narrow margin of vote for victory – you have to accommodate everyone in the tent before you can make any progress.

  105. 105.

    bystander

    October 19, 2016 at 11:29 am

    Just heard on MSNBC that Breitbart has a woman who claims Bill Clinton did something to her in 1980. She’s never come forward before. I’m still waiting for a man HRC groped or a recording of her boasting about how men are begging her to touch them, otherwise I just don’t get why BC’s behavior is transferred to her. I also don’t get how HRC is responsible for emails between a State Dept. employee and an FBI person.

  106. 106.

    Redshift

    October 19, 2016 at 11:30 am

    @liberal:

    OTOH why is it in the US’s interest to care?

    Right, because nothing bad for the US has ever come from allowing strongmen in Europe to seize territory of other countries unchellenged…

  107. 107.

    Peale

    October 19, 2016 at 11:31 am

    @nonynony: Yep. It wasn’t actually Obama saying that he would only sign onto a bill that had some Republican support. Unfortunately, I think what he learned is that once you leave the senate for the executive branch, your influence over Senators diminishes quite a lot.

  108. 108.

    nonynony

    October 19, 2016 at 11:31 am

    @Matt McIrvin:

    Also, I think the numbers for both Johnson and Stein there are a little high as current polling goes. Johnson usually gets about 6-7% and Stein about 1-2%.

    As always, look to the averages, not the polls themselves.

    Johnson is getting 6.7% at RCP in their polling averages. Stein is getting 2.4%. Johnson’s average has been slowly trending downward since the beginning of September. Stein’s has been meandering downward since August. This is to be expected as individuals who were upset by the nominations of Trump or Clinton migrate back to their home party as they realize just how bad a Clinton or Trump presidency would be for them.

    I’m still surprised to see Johnson that high up – I’m still thinking he doesn’t break the 4% barrier when the final results are tallied, but he’s got a ways to drop to get there.

  109. 109.

    Joel

    October 19, 2016 at 11:32 am

    @catclub: Yeah… I’m going to give Rubio the benefit of the doubt here. There’s not a whole lot of immediate benefit for him to take this stance. (Long term is a different story).

  110. 110.

    Amaranthine RBG

    October 19, 2016 at 11:35 am

    Why in the world would anyone care about a nationwide poll?

  111. 111.

    hovercraft

    October 19, 2016 at 11:38 am

    @bystander:
    So he wants to have a face off about how many women he and Bill Clinton have abused? He does realize that for the vast majority of the electorate this is a binary choice, right? Chose me fewer women have accused me of sexual misconduct than have accused her husband, oh and the ones who accused me are lying and they are ugly. You can’t chose her because she enabled her husband by attacking the women, never mind my wife was just on TV attacking my accusers as lying attention seekers who are part of a vast left wing conspiracy against me. You must vote for me because her husband is scum, and there is no proof that I am, believe me.
    This is an excellent strategy.

    EDIT: State was trying to retroactively cover her ass because she used to run the place. I’m sure Chaffetz will be hauling the parties before congress any day now.

  112. 112.

    Gindy51

    October 19, 2016 at 11:39 am

    @Frankensteinbeck: Not just that but when she pulls away he continued use to try and kiss her lips. I had flash backs to something similar that happened to me at age 7 and some creepy old fuck friend of my parents. They thought it was cute but I was disgusted. Poor child and fuck her idiot parents or putting her in such a horrendous position.

  113. 113.

    Redshift

    October 19, 2016 at 11:40 am

    @catclub:

    No, no, no. That is taking Trump’s approach to policy. How many innocent people would you like to have die so we can exact some payback against Russia?

    I don’t think it should be our #1 priority, but I don’t think we can just let it go in hopes of getting more cooperation from Russia. It’s not worth starting a war over (which is what the actual Trump approach to policy would be; either that or a series of angry tweets), but we shouldn’t allow it to be accepted as normal behavior either. Some kind of brushback, with an implication that we don’t want to escalate, but will if they don’t cut it out. (I’m just handwaving here, because I know I don’t know enough to say anything specific about what would be effective.)

    I’m reminded of a criticism I read of Reagan many years ago when he was in office. Reagan used to like to make hay out of publicly accusing the Soviets of nuclear arms treaty violations. Experts noted that this kind of this was real, but the Soviets had a history of backing down if a formal complaint was made. That is, they were testing us, and Reagan tended to use that for political gain instead of making an actual effective response. I see possible similarities here — if we make firm demands that they stop, it won’t necessarily hurt cooperation on other issues, because they know what they’re doing is out of line, and will respect a firm response more than us letting it go just to be cooperative.

  114. 114.

    Jeffro

    October 19, 2016 at 11:41 am

    @hovercraft:

    True, what I’m rooting for now is for Clinton to get over 50%. The media is already preparing the no mandate because she beat a weak candidate, and even the it was only be a plurality bs. If she gets a majority then she can at least throw that back at them.

    Yeah but even with a majority, that’s what they’ll say – a “singularly weak, corrupt, and incendiary candidate” in Trump. Never mind that he was also one a) with about $2B in free advertising on top of b) decades worth of public exposure, including over a decade as a TV star (blech), and perhaps most importantly one c) WHO HAD THE REPUBLICANS’ – both their base voters and an overwhelming number of top GOP officials – CHOICE FOR PRESIDENT!! He won the nom fair and square, he also held onto Ryan’s and McConnell’s and Christie’s and Carson’s and many many others’ endorsements right up until…well, at least as of 11:41 on Tues Oct 19!

  115. 115.

    Joel

    October 19, 2016 at 11:41 am

    @The Moar You Know: What’s to say that we aren’t already doing this?

  116. 116.

    Matt McIrvin

    October 19, 2016 at 11:42 am

    @catclub: I look at those charts and I think “uncertainty is not your friend”. The national polling was consistently off in Romney’s favor in 2012–I think Gallup’s likely-voter screen alone was a large part of that. Gallup isn’t in it this year, and it’s entirely possible that the systematic error is in the opposite direction this time.

    That said, aggregated state polling pretty much nailed it in 2012 while the pundits were getting excited about the horse race, just as it did in 2008 and 2004. The one state they really couldn’t call in ’12 was Florida, so there was this uncertainty between 303 and 332 EV for Obama. Right now, Florida is trending blue, Iowa is red, but Ohio and AZ and some other places are up in the air; the probable EV range seems higher than 2012 but not as high as 2008.

    (People have been crowing about crazy realignments, but I think in the end the map we see is not going to be tremendously weird compared to the last few election cycles. A bunch of Southern states might be closer than we’re used to seeing.)

  117. 117.

    Jeffro

    October 19, 2016 at 11:43 am

    @nonynony: respectfully disagree…Carson was fine until he was revealed to be too dumb and too sleepy to carry the torch…Fiorina was just unlikeable and even in that crowd had some loser-stink about her…and Rubio of course killed himself with immigration reform.

  118. 118.

    MomSense

    October 19, 2016 at 11:45 am

    @nonynony:

    Oddly, it was Snowe who was trying to keep a complicated version of the public option alive in the Senate Finance Committee and she did vote to move the bill out of the finance committee. She didn’t vote for it when it was before the full Senate. Collins was on the Senate HELP committee and not finance.

  119. 119.

    catclub

    October 19, 2016 at 11:47 am

    @bystander:

    I also don’t get how HRC is responsible for emails between a State Dept. employee and an FBI person.

    I think those emails were in 2014 or 2015 – so obviously Clinton was responsible.

  120. 120.

    Peale

    October 19, 2016 at 11:48 am

    @Jeffro: Yep. No one ever said “Bush was weak, because he beat nothingburgers Kerry and Gore.” They spent a lot of time creating the narrative that Kerry and Gore were nothingburgers. But that didn’t translate into “Bush had no mandate.”

  121. 121.

    catclub

    October 19, 2016 at 11:50 am

    @Matt McIrvin:

    I look at those charts and I think “uncertainty is not your friend”

    yes, the one unconscious bias in the article was along the lines of “If the polling is off by 3% then Clinton’s margin will be even bigger” …
    unless it is wrong the other way.

    I am concerned, but hope that Clinton having better ground game is not accounted for by the present polling.

  122. 122.

    Pest Bog Mummy, Frakensteinbeck

    October 19, 2016 at 11:51 am

    @Jeffro:
    I respectfully disagree with both of you. It is a well established trend in American politics that many people want to pretend they have different leanings than their actual voting shows. The fundies are very big on trying to pretend they’re not racists, when racism is actually their #1 issue. Carson got exactly the support I expected: Lots of Christianists voted for him in the primaries right up until he got enough support to look like a contender. The moment that happened they dropped him like a hot rock, because fuck no, they’re not going to actually vote for a black man for president. Cain had a similar arc. They love their Token Black Guy, and he gets the same respect all Token Black Guys get.

  123. 123.

    Applejinx

    October 19, 2016 at 11:53 am

    @sparrow: Ah, I thought maybe I wasn’t the person who believed in Clinton least ;)

    I don’t buy it. You’re talking crap. What I see (and people have plenty of trouble with that, believe me!) is that Clinton’s aware and taking pains to learn from both her previous primary loss, and the current state of politics out there. She’s doing a better job at it than most people around here: but she’s smart, and she has to.

    She doesn’t get another chance. This is not a lady who is going to sit back and rely on her old stereotypes and assumptions. I honestly admire that.

    It MATTERS because for a long time there, she at least leaned in the direction you decry. Hard to tell how much is her and how much is Bill: they’re a team, and I’m convinced she’s the smarter one and has always had a profound influence.

    I saw her talking about ‘basement dwellers’ and her talk about how she’s now rich and doesn’t have to pay attention to the little poor people like those she grew up with, differently than apparently you do. You have got to understand that for the REAL rich, the real elites, this doesn’t even come up because they unthinkingly assume privilege. Hillary had to fight for it, sometimes tolerating things we may never fully know: you don’t come from her background and get as powerful as she and Bill without stepping on some toes and blurring lines. That is easy for you, Sparrow, to believe.

    But she’s smarter than the average neoliberal bear and understands what she’s seeing when she looks at the electorate.

    People are flipping out when I even suggest that she’s ruled by her head and not her heart. I’m not sure it matters, when the results are the same. Anyone who’s listening to the right people and keeping up to speed (and I’m thinking Mark Blyth, Douglas Rushkoff, Elon Musk: not O’Keefe and Breitbart) has figured out that it’s time for a leftist, populist swing. Not because that’s morally right but because that is actually the center and we’re in Right Freakistan without properly acknowledging that fact, and if we don’t we will go down in big ugly flames.

    I hear ya, Sparrow, but you’re wrong. Hillary Clinton has every reason to keep faith with us this time, and no reason to pull a face/heel turn like you’re expecting. And the thing about Clintons is if you keep faith with THEM they don’t forget lightly.

    I’m voting for Clinton and will tell anybody why that is, and I believe what I’m saying is true. I have seen NO sign that she’s actually going to prove a catastrophic mistake, and many signs she’ll keep faith with us, and it’s in our power to help her do that: the less that remains of the Republicans, the freer hand she’ll have.

    Please do vote for her, and what’s more, vote for every Dem you can, and get others to do likewise even if you have to spin it as ‘this ONE LAST CHANCE’. I don’t think it’s much of a gamble, but even if it was, imagine what we’d stand to gain if you were pleasantly surprised, and Hillary turned out to be determinedly progressive for whatever reason!

  124. 124.

    Anoniminous

    October 19, 2016 at 11:57 am

    @Amaranthine RBG:

    National polls drive the media narrative.

  125. 125.

    catclub

    October 19, 2016 at 11:57 am

    @Applejinx:

    I have seen NO sign that she’s actually going to prove a catastrophic mistake,

    This. Clinton will have a chance to pleasantly surprise lots of people who expected very little from her. We live in hope.

    Eta: I did not even read to the end of your post. You got that in. Cheers!

  126. 126.

    Amir Khalid

    October 19, 2016 at 12:00 pm

    I just caught this ad on YouTube. It’s only been up a few hours. Is there even one person Donald Trump ever connected with like this that would or could vouch for the man and the nominee?

  127. 127.

    Applejinx

    October 19, 2016 at 12:02 pm

    @catclub: I’m a diehard Bernie fan longing to see him head the Budget Committee, and I believe in Hillary Clinton like, I think, Bernie does. Not because I have to: because she has earned it.

    And not with ‘a lifelong legacy of unwavering liberalism’: a lot that meant in the nineties!

    With how sharp she’s being NOW. And we need her NOW. If she lives up to what we need… and she may… then I’ll ‘coronate’ her myself, dammit. We need results and can’t derp around with idealistic vaguely political goofballs. Stein never impressed me one bit. We need Hillary for this.

  128. 128.

    FlipYrWhig

    October 19, 2016 at 12:03 pm

    @Betty Cracker:

    From what I’ve seen from afar, Duckworth seems like the real deal.

    FYI, if I remember my blogosphere history correctly, Tammy Duckworth’s original run for Congress was one of the first betrayals of True Progressives and Fifty States Of Strategy accomplished by evil mastermind Rahm Emmanuel.

  129. 129.

    Kay

    October 19, 2016 at 12:06 pm

    (((Harry Enten))) ‏@ForecasterEnten 2h2 hours ago
    Newest Fairleigh Dickinson poll from NJ has Chris Christie’s job approval rating at 21%. His career looks finished.

    If only. We’re stuck with these people for life. He’ll probably run in 2020.

  130. 130.

    The Moar You Know

    October 19, 2016 at 12:07 pm

    The fact that I have to vote for this piece of shit is something I will be pissed about for the rest of my life.

    @sparrow: So don’t. You’re just an insignificant bastard anyway, and we can do without you voting. The nation, quite frankly, is much better off when people like you don’t vote.

  131. 131.

    Peale

    October 19, 2016 at 12:10 pm

    @Barbara: I think its rather naive to think that the US abroad stopped interfering with internal politics of states 20 years ago. Especially in states where the U.S. relationship is in doubt. But it is a lot softer than it was, unless you wish to follow the left and basically interpret any pro-US politician as a CIA puppet and any anti-US politician as representing the true voice of the people. I do expect though that the interference will increase. I don’t think we are going to sit back an allow Russia to fund and organize anti-EU nationalist groups.

  132. 132.

    Kay

    October 19, 2016 at 12:11 pm

    “No, I do not believe that” there will be widespread voter fraud on Election Day, @KellyannePolls tells @SRuhle on @MSNBC

    Poor Kellyanne. The career panic is setting in just about now. Not to worry. Morning Joe will hire anyone. They got the smart career move wrong too.

  133. 133.

    catclub

    October 19, 2016 at 12:14 pm

    @Kay: But I still want to hear questions on how the Trump transition team, headed by Christie, is doing.
    Just for laughs.

  134. 134.

    Peale

    October 19, 2016 at 12:20 pm

    @catclub: My guess is that Christie has come up with a short list of at least 2 dozen jobs that he’d be the best candidate for.

  135. 135.

    Barbara

    October 19, 2016 at 12:21 pm

    @Peale: What is amazing to me is that the larger or more prosperous EU countries are not doing more to prevent this from happening within their own borders.

  136. 136.

    Calouste

    October 19, 2016 at 12:24 pm

    @Kay: Running for President is a way to make money for Republicans who’s career has come to an end. At a minimum you get free meals out of it, and you can put your spouse and your kids on the campaign payroll. And after you bail out, you can sell your list of suckers to the other candidates, like Cruz does.

  137. 137.

    hovercraft

    October 19, 2016 at 12:24 pm

    @Amir Khalid:
    Great Ad, I actually teared up.

  138. 138.

    hovercraft

    October 19, 2016 at 12:32 pm

    @Kay:
    All I can say as a constituent, he is dead to me and many of my fellow New Jerseyans. His behavior the last week or so may have pissed off the Orange one, so I’m not even sure there will be a place for him there.

  139. 139.

    JPL

    October 19, 2016 at 12:35 pm

    @Amir Khalid: What an amazing story!

  140. 140.

    Fair Economist

    October 19, 2016 at 12:36 pm

    @Applejinx:

    I hear ya, Sparrow, but you’re wrong. Hillary Clinton has every reason to keep faith with us this time, and no reason to pull a face/heel turn like you’re expecting. And the thing about Clintons is if you keep faith with THEM they don’t forget lightly.

    This time? The Clintons NEVER do heel turns. All the things lefties complain about with Bill’s administration, like NAFTA and criminal sentencing, were things he’d actively and loudly campaigned for before election. There was no turn at all. Hillary will be exactly the same; she’ll fulfill her platform to the best of her ability.

  141. 141.

    bemused

    October 19, 2016 at 12:38 pm

    @Kay:

    I’m just wondering if Trump will renege on paying full amount of the salaries due Conway and rest of his campaign team as he is famous for.

  142. 142.

    Major Major Major Major

    October 19, 2016 at 12:46 pm

    @sparrow: I try to avoid the fundamental attribution error, but I think I can safely say that you’re an idiot who apparently doesn’t know what ‘neocon’ means.

  143. 143.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    October 19, 2016 at 12:49 pm

    @danielx: Obama wasted the better part of his first term in efforts to work with Republicans under the assumption that there were at least some Republicans who were interested in actually getting shit done that would be in the best interests of the country.

    Jesus. I’ve tried to be tactful when this stupid fucking bullshit keeps coming up, as it does seemingly about once a week but let me try one more fucking time:
    To the extent he negotiated with Republicans, it was the Stimulus, not the ACA, and that was because “we” didn’t have sixty votes. “We” needed Republican votes, and it was just as much work, maybe more, to get Claire McCaskill and Ben Nelson and Evan Bayh and Jim Webb on board as it was Collins, Snowe and then Republican Spector. “We” had sixty votes for about six weeks, and “our” sixty votes included not just the aforementioned Blue Dogs, but also Blanche Lincoln, Mark Pryor, Tim Johnson, Mary Landrieu and spite-monster Joe Lieberman. to say nothing of the bipartisan obsession of people like Max Baucus, and he was not alone in that. And that’s without getting into the granularity of the House (have you ever heard of Bart Stupak? Daniel Lipinski? Ike Skelton?). So could we just let this infantile, whiny, fire bagger bullshit about Obama’s alleged naivete die already? or just go watch a fucking school house rock video if you’re still confused about how a bill becomes a law

  144. 144.

    Major Major Major Major

    October 19, 2016 at 12:50 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Honestly getting the R’s on board for the stimulus was easier than getting fucking Nelson to give us the time of day, from the accounts I’ve read.

  145. 145.

    trollhattan

    October 19, 2016 at 12:51 pm

    @Jeffro:
    I’m counting on Hillary to carry forth Carson’s plan for a national strategic grain pyramid storage reserve.

  146. 146.

    hovercraft

    October 19, 2016 at 12:55 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:
    This is where I can see die hard Bernie voters turning to Trump, he like Bernie is just going to do these things, he’ll just get things done. I on the other hand remember shit like the Stupak amendment that was tacked on to get pro-life democrats on board even though the f**king Hyde Amendment already prohibits the use of Federal funds for abortion.

  147. 147.

    Betty Cracker

    October 19, 2016 at 12:56 pm

    @Fair Economist: Shhh! Applejinx is the Bernie Baby whisperer. Whatever nonsense they need to tell themselves to prevent them from voting 3rd party should be A-OK with those of us who want to avoid the Trumpocalypse.

  148. 148.

    hovercraft

    October 19, 2016 at 1:00 pm

    @trollhattan:
    The construction of which will be a stimulus program, she can have them built across Ohio in order to bank the state for her re-election. Oh wait that may not work out so well as evidenced by Elkhart IN, which voted for Obama in 08, acknowledged that the stimulus and the auto rescue rescued the city from the brink, but then turned around and voted for Mitt because it was time for a change.

  149. 149.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    October 19, 2016 at 1:05 pm

    @hovercraft: The rumor was (so FWIW) that some American Cardinals promised Stupak some kind of papal knighthood or decoration (that included an audience) if he would toss a redundant wrench in the works even though, as you say, the Hyde amendment had already pacified most ‘pro-life’ Dems.

  150. 150.

    hovercraft

    October 19, 2016 at 1:05 pm

    Clinton maintains double-digit (51% vs. 36%) lead over Trump | PRRI/Brookings Survey
    That is 15 points.

    With only three weeks remaining in the 2016 campaign, Hillary Clinton maintains a double-digit lead over Donald Trump among likely voters (51% vs. 36%, respectively).1 Support for Clinton among likely voters has increased significantly over the past few weeks. In late September, Clinton was tied with Trump among likely voters (43% vs. 43%, respectively).

  151. 151.

    Another Scott

    October 19, 2016 at 1:10 pm

    @Amir Khalid: She’s such a horrible monster.

    ;-)

    Thanks.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  152. 152.

    GregB

    October 19, 2016 at 1:10 pm

    @FlipYrWhig:

    If I recall that was one of the purity pony harbingers at Fire Dog Lake which set me casting about and ending up at this blog run by the accident prone Cole.

  153. 153.

    hovercraft

    October 19, 2016 at 1:12 pm

    Speaking pf Little Marco*
    The Miami Herald endorsement of Patrick Murphy it not kind to him.

    Beyond the political differences, there are issues of sincerity and character for voters to consider. First, he reneged on his unequivocal pledge not to run for re-election for a position he once openly disdained — but only after he lost his bid for the Republican presidential nomination to his nemesis, Donald Trump. Then he endorsed Mr. Trump, whom he called a con man during the campaign. And still at this late date, he continues to stand by that endorsement, even as the Republican candidate stumbles from gaffe to insult to outrage.

    Mr. Trump’s candidacy is a test of character, and Sen. Rubio is failing that test. How can voters believe he’s sincere when he says he does not share Mr. Trump’s awful views on Mexicans, immigrants, Muslims, women, etc., yet — at the same time — stands by his endorsement of the New York billionaire? His act is unconvincing. It reeks of political convenience rather than political conviction.

    And he has refused to issue a clear, unequivocal statement on whether he will finish out his term if he wins reelection. And though he used the June massacre at Pulse, the gay nightclub in Orlando, as his excuse for getting in the race, he has a disastrous record as far as LGBT issues are concerned, opposing marriage equality and adoption by gay parents, and voting against giving LGBT Americans workplace protections.

    * will he ever shake the name?
    SAD!

  154. 154.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    October 19, 2016 at 1:13 pm

    @GregB: I remember in Emmanuel’s first Chicago primary, I got a fundraising email from a group run by Hamsher and IIRC Greenwald. The message was “STOP RAHM!” that barely got around to mentioning, much less make a case for, his primary opponent. Kind of summed up the whole FireBagger movement to me.

  155. 155.

    Steeplejack (tablet)

    October 19, 2016 at 1:21 pm

    @Amir Khalid:

    Awesome. Really touching.

  156. 156.

    ruckus

    October 19, 2016 at 1:24 pm

    @Barbara:
    We interfered by trying to destroy their countries. We destroyed the crappy system they had and left them with less. We didn’t so much mess with an election as we did trying to destroy a country.

  157. 157.

    the Conster, la Citoyenne

    October 19, 2016 at 1:25 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Jeebus gawd, thanks for hauling that raft of facts out from under the porch again – it should be a macro. So sick of the Obama sold us out/was naive/was slow to understand arguments about the results Obama wrestled out of that shitshow. Berniacs and the new to politics knowitalls with bropinions have no memory of that time, and how difficult it was to get anything done because every single one of the people you mentioned took full advantage of every opportunity presented to be the preening shitbag of the day – almost all of whom had imagined themselves as President one day, and none of whom were inclined to help or was invested in, an Obama legislative victory. I’ve just fucking had it with purity ponies and their idiocy.

  158. 158.

    Jeffro

    October 19, 2016 at 1:31 pm

    @Pest Bog Mummy, Frakensteinbeck:

    Carson got exactly the support I expected: Lots of Christianists voted for him in the primaries right up until he got enough support to look like a contender. The moment that happened they dropped him like a hot rock, because fuck no, they’re not going to actually vote for a black man for president.

    Ok, I hear you. That moment, though, coincided with most people getting their first exposure to Carson of any kind, not just how he looks, but the things he had to say in his own unique, confusing, sleep-inducing way. That may have been a contributing factor in addition to what you’re saying.

    It seems like Perry got the same treatment once he started to get more press and then subsequently demonstrating he wasn’t the sharpest knife in the drawer.

  159. 159.

    MomSense

    October 19, 2016 at 1:32 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    We also got some of those assholes to vote to end Don’t Ask Don’t Tell and let people serve w/out fear.

  160. 160.

    Peale

    October 19, 2016 at 1:32 pm

    @ruckus: Honestly, I’d prefer interfering in elections rather than, say, joining Saudi Arabia in their attempt to “influence” who is in charge of Yemen.

  161. 161.

    Jeffro

    October 19, 2016 at 1:32 pm

    @hovercraft:

    Clinton maintains double-digit (51% vs. 36%) lead over Trump | PRRI/Brookings Survey
    That is 15 points.

    Catch a wave and you’re sittin’ on top of the wor-rrrrld…

  162. 162.

    Applejinx

    October 19, 2016 at 1:38 pm

    @Betty Cracker: Thank you, Betty.

    Sheesh, how hard is it to comprehend that when you face someone who’s like ‘yagggh, Hillary always eats babies!’ the functional move there is to go ‘I hear you: now watch closely, and I bet you that NOW Hillary doesn’t eat any babies. So vote for her plz kthxbai’.

    I mean, sure truth, sure justice, but this is real and we need all the votes ever, both for Hils and downticket, and you have to admit if you look closely at Hillary now you can see she’s not eating any babies. You can even establish she’s way better off if she doesn’t eat babies, and claim she’s real smart and therefore you can be certain she isn’t going to be eating them in the future. And none of it is lying.

    It’s called giving people an out so they can save face. Leave the loyalty oaths to Donald Trump. We need all the votes.

  163. 163.

    chopper

    October 19, 2016 at 1:39 pm

    @sparrow:

    jesus, your tears taste even better than i thought they would.

  164. 164.

    the Conster, la Citoyenne

    October 19, 2016 at 1:41 pm

    Also, add Steve Schmidt to the list of people who I’d never believe I’d be heartily agreeing with along with Jennifer Rubin and Bill Kristol. That bomb he dropped in useless Brian Wiliams lap yesterday comparing the GOP to the Titanic, but not about the deck chairs, about how the initial contact with the iceberg barely made a shudder and then the physics of the event took over, was a thing of epic and poetic beauty. He did an ode to the sanctity of the peaceful transference of power as conferring legitimacy, as the highest duty, and his duty really is to country.

  165. 165.

    hovercraft

    October 19, 2016 at 1:43 pm

    I missed this on Morning Joke this morning.
    Steve Schmidt: ‘The Panic Is Beginning’
    Watch

    Republican strategist Steve Schmidt sees a landslide victory for Hillary Clinton and possible Democratic majorities in both the U.S. Senate and House.

    Schmidt told MSNBC’s “Morning Joe” on Wednesday morning that Clinton was currently “trending over 400” electoral votes, based on recent polling, and he said Republicans are freaking out over the real possibility of losing their majorities in both houses of Congress.

    “If this election was today, I think Republicans are down 25 seats (in the House), as of today — with the trend line going in the wrong direction,” Schmidt said.

    Rohorohoo

  166. 166.

    Jeffro

    October 19, 2016 at 1:44 pm

    Serious Question: when does the predictions (EV and % of the vote) thread go up? What about the Senate races – perhaps those should get their own ‘predictions’ thread?

  167. 167.

    Another Scott

    October 19, 2016 at 1:44 pm

    BooMan at WaMo: Here Comes the Landslide:

    The race has also narrowed in states like Indiana, Missouri, and (perhaps) Montana. The last poll out of South Carolina, which was conducted between September 18th and 26th (before all the sexual assault allegations against Trump) showed him leading there by only four points.

    It’s clear which candidate has the momentum. It’s also clear that Trump is responding badly by acting in a very erratic way. The gender gap is exploding to unprecedented levels. Trump’s lead in the Census Bureau-defined South has shrunk to 1.2% (Romney won it 7.1%).

    In the primaries, Trump consistently performed poorly with late-deciding voters.

    Voters on the fence have not been supporting Trump. Among the three in 10 Nevada GOP voters who made up their minds in the final week, Rubio won four in 10 of them, compared to about a quarter for Trump and Cruz each. Cruz has also seen more success than Trump with late-deciders, though slightly less than Rubio.

    Similar patterns appear in other early voting states, with Trump winning just 14 percent of late-deciders in Iowa and 17 percent of late-deciders in South Carolina – both behind Rubio and Cruz in states where almost half of voters made final decisions in that time period.

    That seems to be repeating itself now, and with a large pool of undecided voters and voters who are flirting with third party candidates, a late tilt in Clinton’s favor rather than a roughly even split would move the popular vote margin even higher and put some of these close-polling red states in serious jeopardy.

    OpleaseOpleaseOplease… :-)

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  168. 168.

    Jeffro

    October 19, 2016 at 1:45 pm

    @hovercraft: he must be seeing some polls and info that I’m not seeing, ’cause getting to 400 would mean Trump losing UT, TX, and AZ and…hey, never mind, that’s actually do-able…wow…

  169. 169.

    the Conster, la Citoyenne

    October 19, 2016 at 1:47 pm

    @hovercraft:

    Also too from Steve Schmidt: It’s Over

  170. 170.

    hovercraft

    October 19, 2016 at 1:47 pm

    And speaking of taking back the house, I saw my first anti Scott Garrett Ad this morning, hitting him for not voting for the Violence Against Women, and calling him a Tea Party Republican, not right for Jersey.

  171. 171.

    hovercraft

    October 19, 2016 at 1:50 pm

    @Jeffro:
    He’s been talking about the internal polls, remember they’ll only show those if they are good. Charlie Cook said on MTP Daily last week, that in the last few wave elections, you don’t see the wave coming till the last 3 to 2 weeks. That would be right now. So fingers crossed.

  172. 172.

    chopper

    October 19, 2016 at 1:51 pm

    @nonynony:

    johnson is going to do reasonably well in the end, i think, maybe 5% or so. lots of disaffected goopers are gonna pull the lever for him because they just can’t stand trump.

    if the race was closer and that 3% or so felt that they could make enough of a difference they might swallow their pride and help put the republican in the WH, but if trump is down by 10 then what’s the point? might as well make sure he loses bigger if you think maybe the party will decide to change in the aftermath of a historic loss.

    stein tho, she ain’t getting shit.

  173. 173.

    Barbara

    October 19, 2016 at 1:52 pm

    @ruckus: I’m not an idiot. I know where the U.S. has overtly intervened in the world. I was asking a narrower question. It doesn’t mean I am ignorant of, let alone endorse or approve of other kinds of intervention.

  174. 174.

    hovercraft

    October 19, 2016 at 1:54 pm

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne:
    Yes
    I saw that the other night. Still we have to keep the peddle to the metal and take back the house. Bring Nancy back to get things done.

  175. 175.

    chopper

    October 19, 2016 at 1:59 pm

    @hovercraft:

    15 points? clearly the worst major party candidate in modern history.

  176. 176.

    the Conster, la Citoyenne

    October 19, 2016 at 2:05 pm

    @chopper:

    ikr? Can’t help but trying to imagine shouty finger wagging old white Bernie up against shouty short fingered old white Trump, advocating his huge tax increase to vastly expand the role of government in the financial, educational and energy sectors, while also hiding his tax returns and sending out Cornel West and crazy Nina Turner as his surrogates to the Democratic base. Bernie also has some sketchy 70s woo sex stuff that wouldn’t match up well either. We dodged a bullet.

  177. 177.

    liberal

    October 19, 2016 at 2:10 pm

    @FlipYrWhig: Americans for Democratic Action gave her 85% last year, which is mediocre.

  178. 178.

    liberal

    October 19, 2016 at 2:12 pm

    @The Moar You Know: Really? We’re better off when people farther to the left don’t vote for Democrats?

    LOL.

  179. 179.

    sukabi

    October 19, 2016 at 2:14 pm

    @Frankensteinbeck: are you kiddig? That is sooooo inappropriate, but so drumpf…

  180. 180.

    Turgidson

    October 19, 2016 at 2:14 pm

    @FlipYrWhig:

    I remember some battles about her on GOS back in 2006. The premise wasn’t entirely absurd, if I’m remembering things right. There was a liberal candidate who ran in 2004 and lost a respectably close race to eleventy-billion-term-incumbent Hyde, and she was running again. She, and her fans at GOS, felt betrayed that the DCCC, run by Rahm, supported Duckworth over her. Duckworth didn’t live in the District, if I remember right. And she barely lost the general, which the rabble blamed on Rahm despite it being a fairly strong GOP district.

    Rahm is an insufferable POS and all, but discovering Duckworth and helping her launch her political career was hardly one of his worst moves.

  181. 181.

    sukabi

    October 19, 2016 at 2:20 pm

    @Kay: Morning Joke should be cancelled.

  182. 182.

    hovercraft

    October 19, 2016 at 2:21 pm

    @chopper:
    Why isn’t she leading by more, Trump is collapsing she should already have this in the bag! I guess that’s why she’s expanding into red states, and why Priorites USA is now spending in downballot races, not just the presidential.

  183. 183.

    waysel

    October 19, 2016 at 2:22 pm

    @Applejinx: My sympathies to you regarding your good friend who has gone from rational to irrational. Seriously. I was shaken internally for a whole day at least after discovering recently that a dear to me couple was voting Trump. Appearently gun law based, mostly, but whatever the reason, it was much easier when I saw Trump voters as dumb, or racist, or abhorrent ingenerous people. And kudos for keeping up the good fight.

  184. 184.

    sukabi

    October 19, 2016 at 2:22 pm

    @Kay: can you run for office from prison?

  185. 185.

    hovercraft

    October 19, 2016 at 2:33 pm

    @sukabi:
    Yes, back in 2012 40 % of democrats in the Kentucky or West Virginia primary voted for some asshole who was in prison rather than vote for their parties nominee, the sitting president of the United States!

  186. 186.

    the Conster, la Citoyenne

    October 19, 2016 at 2:46 pm

    @waysel:

    They’re white nationalists/white supremacists. That’s all Trump has consistently offered and is a reliable proponent of, since he’s been completely unable to articulate any other coherent or consistent policy. He’s been a useful sorting hat to ferret out what we already suspected about our fellow white folk. By this I mean that most white people harbor racist attitudes and thoughts occasionally or often, but don’t actually believe in white supremacy as an ideology or white nationalism as an organizing principle. Trump supporters – the avid ones – do. It’s all they know and care about him. They’ll say it’s about taxes or guns, but again, that’s just caping for what they really want, which is to have those people kept down, and kicked out.

  187. 187.

    sukabi

    October 19, 2016 at 2:49 pm

    @hovercraft: I know Trafficante from Ohio ran for congress from his prison cell…I guess it comes down to “better the crooks you know, than the ones you don’t”

    Stupid people being stupid.

  188. 188.

    sukabi

    October 19, 2016 at 2:55 pm

    @hovercraft: and that’s something else that needs to be fixed…if you can have your voting rights stripped for being a felon, then you also should be banned from holding public office… also, if you’re convicted of crimes while in office you should lose any pension associated with that office.

  189. 189.

    stinger

    October 19, 2016 at 4:05 pm

    @nonynony: Great comment — it’s good to see clear explanations of how consensus law-making actually works. Some people seem to think if only Obama had wanted it badly enough, had tried hard enough, was pure and progressive enough, we’d have single payer now.

  190. 190.

    stinger

    October 19, 2016 at 4:18 pm

    @lamh36: Wow — she looks like a statue of Venus, all those shining curves and long fluid lines — thanks for the link!

  191. 191.

    Ruckus

    October 19, 2016 at 4:26 pm

    @Barbara:
    Didn’t call you an idiot.
    I actually thought I was pretty clear in my first post and was just expanding on that, per your inquiry.

  192. 192.

    SWMBO

    October 19, 2016 at 4:53 pm

    I don’t know if this is Pence or Rubio. It’s really a toss-up.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PS6lNDrCi88

  193. 193.

    different-church-lady

    October 19, 2016 at 6:11 pm

    @Kay:

    …and should never be absolved for it.

    Abso-godammed-lutely correct.

  194. 194.

    Ian

    October 19, 2016 at 8:16 pm

    @Barbara:
    More recent examples include Venezuela, Mexico, Honduras, Haiti,Iraq, Lebanon, and Afghanistan.

  195. 195.

    JR in WV

    October 19, 2016 at 8:54 pm

    @Betty Cracker:

    I contributed to her first House campaign, and twice again to this campaign. I thought she was the real deal from the beginning, I’m glad to hear from someone who met with her that this is probably the case.

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