I come from a fairly down-to-earth background. Farmers, shoe makers, immigrants and yes, very conservative beliefs, these are my people. So I kinda get this guy.
I may not agree with them, but I sure as hell can’t give up on them.
Anyway I find him funny. You probably won’t….
So talk about whatever. There’ll be some kind of NFL thread around before you know it.
Trentrunner
That hilarious Black Jeopardy skit on last night’s SNL encapsulates the WWC problem as well as any of the thinkpieces, hottakes, and hillbilly paeans this season.
Upshot: While black Americans and working white class Americans have potentially much overlap on many issues, WWCs’ racism will always trump that overlap.
germy
@Trentrunner: Very true. I saw the black jeopardy skit and expected something other than what they delivered.
The writers made the excellent point that the working class white guy has more in common with working class people of color than he even knows. His terrified reaction when the gameshow host approaches him for a handshake was telling: all those years of radio talk show hate and fox news has him nervous.
MattF
It’s funny in the second clip when he deadpan-mocks California liberals, accents and all. He’s got a good ear.
debbie
@germy:
That was a good skit; better than the previous Black Jeopardies. I still miss Darrell Hammond’s Sean Connery (“Your mother, Trebek!”).
D58826
Terrible news for Hillary – always wrong Karl; Rove says that ‘old little hands’ is toast. Must mean all those mystery voters have turned up and Trump will be elected :-) (snark)
MattF
@D58826: The ‘math’ against Trump must be even more dreadful than we know. In any case, Rove is mainly dogwhistling to his prospective clients– and I imagine they’re getting the message.
Cephalus Max
Love this guy. Dude’s a talented performer. As a long-time (though not by birth) Southerner, I’ve known plenty of folks who sound a lot like him. And I definitely agree with the sentiment…
p.a.
@D58826: They are SOOOoooooo devious; trying to instill a false sense of security over our real sense of security. All to hold down voter turnout. #bury’em11/8
Frankensteinbeck
@Trentrunner:
The upper middle class and rich also have a lot of shared interests with the working class, but are at least as racist with an extra layer of needing to grind the poor to prove what Galtian supermen they are.
Joel
The black jeopardy sketch is both great and horribly depressing at the same time…
WereBear
I love Liberal Redneck! So pleased he’s doing well.
Cleos
I’m tempted to employ that quote from “Blazing Saddles” but I won’t.
And yes, this does describe many of my neighbors. Salt of the earth blabbityblahblahblah but if I put up a Hillary Clinton sign “God’s people” would either steal or vandalize it by nightfall.
WaterGirl
I get 3 identical videos. I liked the first one, but not well enough to watch it 2 more times. :-)
I’ve seen him before and liked him.
WaterGirl
@Trentrunner: What is WWC?
WereBear
I just got the book:
The Liberal Redneck Manifesto
Reminder to use the Balloon Juice link if you are going to buy it.
TaMara (HFG)
I have to take off, Bailey has company coming. So I have to pick up the puppy flotsam from around the house before they get here. I’ll try and check back and if no one has put up an NFL thread, I’ll do it. I’d put my puppies in NFL gear and post a photo, but I don’t own any NFL gear.
I’ve rescued everyone from the spam folder, try not to use words like pen1s and puzzy and you should be fine.
Omnes Omnibus
@WaterGirl: Read the line above it.
TaMara (HFG)
@WaterGirl: That’s weird. Anyone else have that problem? Try refreshing a few dozen times. :-D
Here is his youtube channel if you want to see more.
Corner Stone
@TaMara (HFG):
You’re not the boss a me!
Josie
I have not seen this young man before, but he is now my new hero. What a breath of fresh air. It reminds me that the northerners at a prestigious university originally thought my son was an ignorant hick during his freshman year because of his southern accent and good manners. Boy, did they ever get a surprise!
Frankensteinbeck
I’m sorry, Mr. Liberal Redneck, but I’m from your part of the country and 70-80% of the whites voted against the black guy in the White House. And you’re unaware of just how ugly the culture of conformist cruelty is, because you do fit in. Still, you are proof that it doesn’t have to be that way, and more power to you.
@Corner Stone:
I AM SO THE BOSS OF-
Ahem. Sorry. Reflex.
Patricia Kayden
Been so busy that I haven’t actually listened to any of Trae’s full videos. Will make time to enjoy them after the election.
Trump looks like he’s going down hard on Nov 8th with one poll showing Clinton up by 12 in national polls. Hope all his talk about rigged elections leads to his supporters not even bothering to vote. Lol.
WaterGirl
@Omnes Omnibus: Technically, I think it was the line below WWC, but thanks for steering me toward a clue.
Did you ever read my reply to you in the last week or two? You asked me to explain my thinking related to Hillary and I wrote a long reply. Wondered if you had left the thread before I posted it.
Frankensteinbeck
@Patricia Kayden:
Honestly, it’s depressed Republican turnout I hope for. That is where downballot success kicks in.
WereBear
Me too. They are so fond of denial and that will keep them home.
NotMax
TaMara (HFG)
Guess the whole ‘NFL is dead to me because of concussions’ sentiment that permeated the comments not all that long ago has fallen into the memory hole.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
Asking Dems to do a better job explaining how their policies help poor whites in order to get them to vote Dem makes me want to gouge my eyes out. I heard John Fugelsang say that this morning, I hear Bernie still saying it, I hear this guy saying it, I read it over and over and over. Obama went to Elkhart, personally, to explain something as clearly as it’s possible to explain something to white folks without insulting them – drawing a straight line from 2009 to 2016 to connect his policies to the resultant fall in unemployment and uptick in demand for their RVs, and they STILL are voting Republican because white. Hey, wypipo: EVERYTHING IS ABOUT RACE.
RSA
@MattF:
That was excellent. I was reminded of times I’ve heard actors like David Tennant and Gillian Anderson speaking with the accent they grew up with, and being reminded about my own speech, “Oh, what I think of as not having an accent is just another accent.”
workworkwork
When will the recipe threads start up again?
I’ve been experimenting with some new stuff while my wife is in respite care.
This morning – low carb deep dish pizza.
Well, the crust anyway. I’ll finish cooking it up tonight. Looks good, smells great!
WereBear
@RSA: I lived in several places with accents growing up, and while I weeded out the most obvious “tells” a fine ear can still pick up Midwest.
FlipYrWhig
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: Seriously. They don’t vote for Democrats because they are the base of the Republican Party. It doesn’t require that much explanation. Just keep outvoting them until they give up.
Woodrowfan
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: like those in Kentucky that voted for the republican even though it meant LOSING THEIR OWN DAMN HEALTH INSURANCE!!!
Botsplainer
@TaMara (HFG):
Me and people replying to me have the only valid reasons for saying pen!s, since I actually ate some, and I suppose you could say they were heavily salted.
It’s a shame I speak no Chinese; I could have asked if they are sold by the bag.
Corner Stone
@NotMax:
I don’t remember any sort of consensus on the sentiment. However, in general, the community at this blog that enjoys football and enjoys yapping about football while the action is live has diminished to almost nil. So I think if you’re a person who is not interested in the game that it’s fairly easy to continue interacting in almost every thread here, and not feel like you’re celebrating something you find repugnant, etc.
Citizen_X
Similar, and also entertaining and worth watching (on YouTube or Facebook): native Alabaman, the Godless Engineer.
@Frankensteinbeck:
And how the fuck does that make him different from just about anybody else from anywhere?
aimai
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: Right. Jesus christ its not been for lack of trying that the WWC doesn’t get that its interests align with the democratic party’s actual policies.
Also, to Josie upthread. I’m really sorry that your son got caught in the backlash from centuries of white southern indifference to, or hostility to, education and travel and that for that reason a southern accent has ceased to be the national mark of an educated person. That’s totally the fault of his northern classmates who don’t have their own class, race, and gender issues and fear of being mistaken for idiots to wrestle with. His suffering must have been immense. Good thing he didn’t have to endure being educated with tits, or a latino accent, or in black skin and find himself accused of only being there because of affirmative action.
WereBear
@workworkwork: Yum. I’ve done the low carb pizza quiche which is quite good, and there’s one where you use finely chopped cauliflower, but I don’t have a food processor.
Steeplejack
@WaterGirl:
White working class.
Another Scott
@Cleos: A young couple a few streets over with a home pet sitting/driver’s ed/etc. business they run out of their home have this big “Trump/Pence” banner nailed up on their fence. I was kinda shocked when I first saw it. I walked by it again yesterday after a couple of weeks had lapsed. They have a typed note by it now saying something like “This property is protected by video surveillance. You are being watched! Anyone trespassing or defacing this property will be prosecuted!!”
Sad! For a multitude of reasons! But kinda interesting, also too…
Cheers,
Scott.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@Woodrowfan:
The working class is largely people of color, and is not receptive to Trump or the GOP. That’s all you need to know. I will never forget NPR’s interview with a woman voter from KY who was ready to vote for Bevin, because even though she was benefiting from KYNECT, she hated the culture of dependency on government that she saw around her – IOW, “those people” were getting help from the government. So, fuck all these racist crackers everywhere they are sideways with a rusty pointed metal implement.
Brachiator
@Omnes Omnibus:
No line above it on mobile browser (Firefox and Android).
Or did you mean line below first WWC mention?
germy
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: They’re why we can’t have nice things.
Villago Delenda Est
@Trentrunner: This is because they have a problem that is really stupid. Skin color, not character, is the most important thing to them. They can’t get past it.
Frankensteinbeck
@Citizen_X:
Having failed to fit in in California, Kentucky, South Carolina, Oregon, and Michigan, the difference in hate levied at those who are different is night and day. The South is meaner than shit.
CarolDuhart2
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: A-f-men.
Iam, and grew up black working class. But we are practicallly invisible to pollsters. Do you want to know a secret? The Center for American Progress ran a study several years ago, and the WWC is one class that is dropping precipitously.
NotMax
@aimai
Must have been either asleep or out of the country on the day it was considered so.
;)
@Corner Stone
Almost always merrily skip right past posts highlighting any ongoing sporting event. Diff’rent strokes and all that.
Do seem to recall front page posts with extensive comments about the concussions issue, however.
schrodinger's cat
Working class dudes (and they were all dudes) that I have known in New England and NY were all Democrats, they didn’t love the Dems, especially Bill Clinton and the DLC crowd in the 90s, were big fans of Obama but always voted Dem. Mainly because of the Dem support for Unions.
This working class white men caricature in the media seems to be more of Southern and Midwestern thing.
WereBear
@germy: Yes, they will use their own nice things to burn down someone else’s house.
Josie
@aimai: I suggest you listen to Trae’s clip (#3) above. Your mean, sarcastic reply to me just proves what he says about prejudice not being limited to southerners. I never said my son suffered; in fact he was amused at the prejudices of his classmates. Many of them, although well educated, had never been out of their own neighborhoods and had never been around persons of any other color than white. He, on the other hand, grew up in a majority minority situation (85-90% Latino) and was much more prepared to function in any mixed group than they were. He was also prepared to deal with women’s issues, having been raised by a strong single mother who worked to support her sons after their father’s untimely death.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@germy:
Exactly. Bernie was on Bill Maher Friday night, being fellated by the audience and Bill of course. The discussion was about the rigged system and the CFPB, and how Bernie wanted to raise taxes on the top (fine), but Bob Kerrey, representing the liberal apologist for his fellow white male middle American Trump supporters, did a fairly good job of making the point to Bernie that raising taxes to expand the role of government into everyone’s life in order to ameliorate inequality was the “tax and spend” poison pill language that makes Dems so hated in the white working and middle class. All these white male liberals are still dancing around the 8000 pound elephant in the room.
ETA: If it were Bernie instead of Hillary, I’m not sure he’d be polling ahead anywhere outside of the NE and California.
amk
Villago Delenda Est
@RSA: I was vacationing in Singapore, of all places, and wound up with some Australians at a table. It didn’t take long for both sides to identify where the other was from, due to accents. You don’t think you have an accent (and I’m from the PNW, so I’ve got a modified Johnny Carson midwest accent) but once you’re out of the accent area, the locals there can tell you’re not from the neighborhood.
Litlebritdifrnt
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: There was a conservative commentator on AM Joy this morning pointing out that democrats really need to get their message across as to how their policies help the working class much more than Trump’s. At one point he said “health savings accounts to replace obamacare seriously? You want people who don’t have any money to put money in a savings account to pay for healthcare?”
Villago Delenda Est
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: Well, the entire GOP ‘deep bench’ danced around what made Trump the nominee: Trump refused to play by Atwater Rules. The base loved him for it.
Corner Stone
…is there, um, coursework available for this curriculum? Asking for a fr
Another Scott
@Litlebritdifrnt: Merry Mary got married.
[edit:] Whoops – that was for VDE. Sorry for the mis-click.
Cheers,
Scott.
Frankensteinbeck
@Citizen_X:
I do admit I might be bitter about three decades of social mockery, physical attacks, and insults screamed at me on the street for issues as minor as having the wrong accent or carrying a satchel.
Karen S.
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: This! It seems like as long as the message is coming from a black man or the message is meant to include Those People, they don’t want to understand. Heck, I’m sure one of the reasons many poor, rural, working class whites hate Obamacare is because they view it as charity from a black person, and they will NOT except charity from black people. It’s always about race.
West of the Rockies (been a while)
@Steeplejack:
Thank you. I was confused as well and reading the line “above it” provided no answer.
Brachiator
@Patricia Kayden:
Trump seems determined to leave a trail of hate and resentment as he slithers off the political stage.
And somebody on one of the Sunday pundit shows reported that down ballot Republicans are being punished by Trump supporters if they hint that the GOP should prepare to deal with a President Hillary.
ETA. The pundit show had a brief clip of Obama appearing in a ton of tv ads for down ballot Democrats. It’s good to be popular.
Villago Delenda Est
@Brachiator:
This is what happens to you, eventually, if you cultivate a political base that is steeped in hatred, resentment, and ignorance. They will eventually throw the baby out with the bathwater and never even notice they did so.
West of the Rockies (been a while)
Perhaps some people can’t or won’t be educated. I hope that as a nation we can somehow begin to heal, to recognize commonalities rather than differences (if those differences have to keep leading to fear and resentment).
I grew up in NorCal. First girl I fell for was a transplant from Pulaski, TN, birthplace of the friggin’ KKK. She was beautiful and whip smart — all A’s every semester. She did not seem to be full of hate and prejudice. It’s perhaps not easy, but we can wise up, wake up, and move forward.
Progress(iveism) is a great thing.
CarolDuhart2
And I suspect that part of the Trumpian anger is that we (the Obama coalition) is about to go on without them. There’s now enough of us native and legal Americans of other backgrounds that we can hold the line on the prejudices. Add the soon-to-be legals, and they can no longer hold benefits that we have earned from us. And we will have Obamacare, and equal pay, and other goodies.
I’ve seen this coming since the 90’s, when popular culture went west to California-the California of the barrios and Compton, when I began to see a multiplicity of ethnicities on the tv and in the movies. When I began to see old ghettoes empty out as people began to buy houses in the suburbs.
germy
Botsplainer
The fuck! What is it about single travelers who refuse to switch seats to accommodate couples who would like to sit together or at least in proximity? I don’t get it – I’ve done it whenever asked, and cheerfully. Twice this has happened this trip.
This guy now gets to sit in his precious window seat next to a sullen me. The woman who jacked us around in business class to Beijing tried chatting with me for the final third of the flight, wife was in a seat three ahead – I don’t know how much plainer I could make my irritation with her.
hovercraft
When asked about Trump’s Gettysburg rant, Jan Brewer responded:
Donald Trump “he has been waterboarded by these issues it seems like it’s really been somewhat of a put up oppression of Donald Trump, from all of these people lining up, it’s just unbelievable, and any body that’s been under those kinds of assaults I think would want to defend themselves, but he did a great job explaining to the American people….”
EriktheRed
Cubs.
AxelFoley
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
This. All this.
hovercraft
@Trentrunner:
Enjoyed the Black Jeopardy skit.
I love Liberal Redneck, I stumbled across him a while back, he’s funny and gives a different perspective.
RSA
@WereBear: @Villago Delenda Est: Cool.
I sometimes wonder if people can tell I’m originally from San Francisco. My family moved to Baltimore when I was a kid, and they knew I wasn’t from there. I tried the accent-removal thing, but who knows what’s left?
One of my colleagues here in NC is originally from Ireland, and even after maybe 30 years living in the U.S. he still sounds very Irish. I asked what happens when he goes back to visit his relatives, though, and they think he’s an American.
Ruckus
@NotMax:
It hasn’t for me. One thing that has happened the last few weeks is getting to talk to other vets every day. I’ve made friends with a gentleman that played nose tackle in the NFL for 9 yrs. The list of medical issues that he got from that is astounding. I won’t list them here, not my place. But I did ask him if he thought it was worth it and he said yes but barely.
Omnes Omnibus
@WaterGirl: I did not see it. Sorry.
Baud
@germy:
Modified to refer to Conservative Bible.
Kay Eye
Trae Crowder was spot on about a lot of things.
He didn’t mention that it’s too damn hot in most of the South.
Not many novelists can write with respect and great affection for desperately poor people. Pick up Carolyn Chute’s books about The Beans of Egypt Maine and their neighbors. Set in Maine, not the South, but I imagine raccoon copulation on the porch goes on there as well. Her books provide a window for the more fortunate to look through and begin to understand why and how “the government” is often seen as the enemy.
And not wanting Those People to have what These People can’t. The crippling legacy of bigotry and injustice, as Lyndon Johnson said.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: @AxelFoley: Fuglesang is very smart and sometimes very funny, and I like having someone on our side who can argue religion back at the R’s, but christ his willful, precious naiveté can be exasperating.
WereBear
@Frankensteinbeck: I am not a native Southerner, though I have come to realize that in my little Midwest birthtown there isn’t that much difference in their cultural outlook.
I heartily agree with what you said on a previous thread about the “sadistic enforcement of conformity” both of these areas are known for.
I am astonishing young people with my memory of a time when a man’s life was in danger if they had hair longer than their collar.
West of the Rockies (been a while)
@AxelFoley:
It’s crazy-making, for sure. But education takes time. And it’s probably better than waiting for 40% of the population to kick off, hoping they’ve left no influence on succeeding generations. YMMV.
hovercraft
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
And when the media went and asked them specifically about the revival of the RV industry, they acknowledged that Obama’s policies had saved them and their industry, but still they felt it was time for a change. See it was change, not race, I promise.
trollhattan
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
Is that regional? My No/Cal stomping ground doesn’t seem to reflect it (although the labor dept would know better than I).
Pest Bog Mummy, Frakensteinbeck
@WereBear:
This is a huge part of the ‘government is the problem’ sentiment. They know that it’s the federal government that stepped in and makes it harder and harder for them to violently enforce their way of life.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@Kay Eye:
Maine, the home of Paul LePage, is the other end of the Appalachians, and the whitest state in the country. Also went for Bernie, bigly, because the progressives there are able to see how the economic system could benefit them, because they love their big government – Bath builds destroyers, up until recently had the Brunswick Naval Air Station, and is now deep into a heroin crisis as we know is blamed on DMoney and Smoothy. White people love big government, if it only works on their behalf.
Corner Stone
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I like that he makes straight forward points laced with actual religious references but the argument that it’s on Democrats to take back Jesus from the Republicans is ridiculous. They are voting for Trump in large swaths. That should tell you that it would take Jesus himself to heal all the hate they must have in their hearts.
WereBear
And this is why I find it difficult to feel sorry for them.
Spite. That is a terrible terrible trait I do not understand.
trollhattan
@hovercraft:
Brewer is that special combination of angry and ignorant. I make her top choice to replace Sheriff Joe.
Corner Stone
@hovercraft:
Change Election! This is a Change Election!
Jim, Foolish Literalist
There was a poll ten days ago or so that showed Obama’s popularity with different categories of people in Ohio. His weakest support was men– maybe white– who belong to unions, who I guess resent him for saving the auto industry. And I suspect if they included police unions that would really skew that sample
ETA:
and just to stick with Ohio, this is such a change election about trade and resentment of the elites that the Establsihment’s Establishmentarian, free trader, anti-New Dealer and GWB’s budget director Rob Portman has a double digit lead and the endorsement of the Ohio Teamsters.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
He was a Bernie guy. Shocking, I know.
WereBear
@Pest Bog Mummy, Frakensteinbeck: Excellent point. Being born with a low denial capacity, I am always astonished at the things some people think are worth preserving. :)
BR
It’s going to be tough, but it may be possible to win the house. Only way is to volunteer to GOTV GOTV GOTV.
Mnemosyne
Heh. I have a Facebook friend who has a major crush on that guy. Not my type, but to each her own.
Ruckus
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
There really is a huge amount of white blue collar workers in this country. I know, I’m one of them, I used to employ a number of them. Not all of us are asshole rethugs and tRump supporters. And I see this from some places/people that I never suspected would not be rethugs and tRump supporters. None of us are that easily/neatly boxed up. There are black and Latino tRump supporters, why I have no idea but they exist. Not all of us think with our skin color or heritage or genitalia. Hell not all of us even think.
And I believe we do a great disservice to each other to talk like we all think with our external attributes, even though many of us do on occasion.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@trollhattan:
By largely, I mean out of proportion to their numbers of the overall population. Because whites are still an overwhelming majority of the country’s population, whites still comprise a slim majority of the working class.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: and so smarmy, self-righteous and delusional about it (he was seriously proposing that “Bernie” would get around Congress by governing by executive order) that I pretty much had to stop listening to his show. I do love Frank Coniff
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Ruckus: a bunch of my white male blue collar relatives surprised me last week by saying they were more or less reluctant Clinton voters. Two of them said they wished Biden had run.
I have a lot more who I’m pretty sure are Trumpkins. I will be avoiding them for the next few weeks
Baud
@Corner Stone:
According to polls, we are already winning bigly with Semites. What more can we do?
Villago Delenda Est
@RSA: In my first unit at Ft. Lewis, one of my fellow officers asked if I was from New York. Now, mind you, I was born upstate about 30 miles west of Cooperstown, but I had lived in Oregon continuously from 1960 on. There was some phrase I used, probably picked up from my parents, that he latched on to as “New York”. And my parents were not native New Yorkers by any means…Dad from Arkansas, Mom from Pennsylvania…and they met in California!
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@Ruckus:
You’re looking at it backwards – Trump supporters are overwhelmingly white/male, and the polling shows really more middle class than working class. Yes, Republicans are bleeding out college educated whites/males and white women. By election day we might actually get close to the 27% distillation of pure wingnut id, because he’s such a uniquely poor candidate, but the GOP can expand its base again with a less obvious psychopath.
WereBear
I am afraid the Fundagelicals have tarnished Jesus as a brand.
Baud
@Ruckus:
Dems still win 40% of white voters. We haven’t had a majority since 1964, but 40% is nothing to sneeze at.
debbie
@Villago Delenda Est:
I must not know what the Atwater Rules are. Atwater focused on exploiting the baser instincts of people by appealing to their fears and insecurities. This is exactly what Trump’s done, only big-leaguely. Other candidates merely alluded to them, but Trump has turned those fears into badges of honor.
It’s on the WWC for falling for this. They do this every time and they never learn. For instance, in Ohio, the teamsters are supporting the Republican Rod Portman over the Democrat Ted Strickland solely, as their spokesman admitted, because Portman has promised to protect their pensions.
Really, a Republican protect any pension other than his own? When over the millennia has that ever happened? You know after he’s reelected, Portman will pull a Scott Walker on these guys by either saying he never said that or saying it was unavoidable.
The WWC is right to be angry, but until they stop supporting those who have caused their pain, they’ll get nowhere.
Baud
@debbie:
Talk in code.
Villago Delenda Est
@Pest Bog Mummy, Frakensteinbeck: The really stupid thing is, if you think about your day to day life, the Federal Government doesn’t enter into it that much. Your employer is far more likely to make your life miserable and blame it on the government to duck their own responsibility.
debbie
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I abhor Portman more than you, but a good part of his lead is due to Strickland himself.
Ruckus
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Weeks seem like not nearly enough.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@debbie:
Whites are voting against their economic self interest and voting their racial self interest – to preserve the system of white supremacy that grants their mediocre white asses unearned privilege. It’s rational.
debbie
@Baud:
Ah, okay, thanks. Never mind.
Villago Delenda Est
@debbie: As Baud points out, you can do all those things…but never, ever say “ni*CLANG*” because that gives it away. Always talk in code. That way the lazy fuckwits of the MSM won’t notice.
Villago Delenda Est
@debbie: They think that Portman won’t break that promise in a heartbeat?
debbie
@Villago Delenda Est:
But then how do you explain Trump, who’s used less code and is getting greater support? Maybe the GOP’s had it wrong all along.
lamh36
ok…the SNL Black Jeopardy skit was pretty funny…
plus I have noticed that a lot of less bougie white folk really do luv Tyler Perry’s Madea…lol
Black Jeopardy with Tom Hanks – SNL
lamh36
So I decided to catch up on my Lethal Weapon eps on DVR. I was surprised how much I like the first ep…and looks like alot of folks do also
debbie
@Villago Delenda Est:
I saw a brief interview with the spokesman. He seemed to brush that aside. He even said he was willing to take Portman at his word. You can’t fight that kind of nonsense.
AxelFoley
@Brachiator:
Amazing how Dems want to be seen with Obama now. Too bad they didn’t have the balls to stand with their President in 2010 and 2014.
Fuck ’em.
Corner Stone
@Baud:
Obviously, start making a hard push to attract the large pool of passionate, motivated anti-semites! They are, in fact, the real face of America and the only voters that count! If that were not true then why would the media spend so much time interviewing them in an effort to see what issues and policy they really care bout?
Anoniminous
Problem with Kentucky is the lack of political engagement. ~31% of voters turned out in the 2015 election. 44.2% turned out in 2014. Going across the South: Mississippi had a 29% turnout in 2014, Alabama 32.9%, Georgia 38.2%, South Carolina 34.8%, Oklahoma 29.9%, Texas 28.3%, & yadda-yadda. And the rest of the country isn’t much better. The only state that had a turn-out remotely like that of a Presidential year was Maine with 58.1% but even they were down from the 68.2% in 2012.
The only broadly accurate statement about the White Working Class is they don’t vote. And if they don’t vote it does not matter what they think or want.
debbie
The depths of their blindness:
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@debbie: College educated whites (to speak in broad pundit talk) of the tote-bagger stripe, who need to be able to tell themselves that Romney wasn’t a birther, that voter ID laws aren’t about race, that they don’t mean what they say about gays or abortion or foreign policy, so they can vote for tax cuts without feeling selfish or guilty
Doug R
@Kay Eye: Hey, we have gangs of scrapping raccoons here in the PNW. Glad there’s no people-chasing bears in our neighborhood at least.
Ruckus
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
That wasn’t what I meant at all. Yes tRumps supporters are mostly white, I’d bet they are close to 100% racist, they after all do comprise mostly white males making decent if not great money and no college degree.
But what I’m discussing is grouping people by their external attributes, even if it’s shorthand. I’m an older, white, blue collar male with no college degree and I’m pretty far to the left. I know of others that feel the same way. None of us are monolithic based on our external attributes. I’m not sure how to describe people with shorthand that doesn’t group or box them in places they don’t belong. Conservatives do that. I think we should do better, even if it doesn’t fit in 140 words.
hovercraft
@WereBear:
I don’t feel sorry for their plight, I do feel sorry that they live in a state of willful ignorance that causes them to vote the way they do. Because they result of their votes hurts all of us as well, and makes them even more bitter and determined not to listen to reason.
@trollhattan:
Maricopa will have time to get their act together if Arpiao goes down, he down 15 points, the democrat wins, then they will have 4 years to see what a normal sheriffs department looks like. Jan Brewer would probably lose a contest of knowledge and ability to speak clearly to Sarah Palin.
WereBear
No, the code talking gave them the illusion of respectability. This is how “moderate” Republicans could hide their racism.
Corner Stone
@debbie: Could just be they believe Portman is going to win and think they may at least have a chit to call in one day. Probably won’t work out too well for them, but going down with the SS Strickland isn’t going to do much for them either. Maybe just craven politics?
Frankensteinbeck
@debbie:
It’s complicated, but the core argument is that moderately racist voters at first embraced dog whistles as a way of sticking it to minorities without feeling like racists. Over time, this has not stopped minorities from closing the gap in numbers and social power. Then a black man became president, and they are fed up with trying to be polite. They went looking for the most openly white supremacist asshole they could find as a candidate.
Corner Stone
I don’t think “sloppy” comes anywhere close to describing the first half of this MIN v PHI contest.
Corner Stone
@lamh36: Enjoyed the whole skit but my favorite part is where Tom Hanks’ character answers, “Not a damn thing.” when asked what skinny girls can do for you.
Jeffro
@Litlebritdifrnt: I have to agree with that; at this point everyone and their uncle knows the Democrats are the party of inclusivity and diversity … what they need to do is ask: economic anxiety? well let’s take a look at the 18 different ways the Democratic Party tries to look out for working-class and middle-class families… if they still think the Republicans offer a better deal then they’re not thinking rationally for some reason or another and I wonder what that could be
Suzanne
@Botsplainer:
Worse, I’ve had people refuse to move so that one of my young children could sit next to a parent. Now my Elder is old enough to sit alone, but before that, we would happily split into two pairs of two so each kid could sit next to a parent. But we took flights in which, just by chance or whatever, there were only single seats left, and people wouldn’t switch to accommodate so that a kid under the age of five could sit next to a parent. Like, what?
I had to take the weekend off of election volunteering, because this weekend is pretty much nonstop busy, but I’ll be back at it next weekend.
Cute Spawn story that warmed my heart:
Spawn the Elder (who is twelve) and her longtime friend Fred switched schools this year because they were being pretty badly bullied at their last school, and both of them were having some pretty bad mental health effects because of it. Fred is a tiny little guy, and identifies as bisexual and gender non-conforming—wears makeup daily, is growing his hair long, cross-dresses on weekends. At their new school, they made a group of new friends, including Rachel, who is cisgender and heterosexual, like Spawn the Elder, and Jake, who is gay and transgender. Fred and Jake have since become a couple. Elder told me that the last time they all went to the mall, they had a great time at Sephora, except Jake kept freaking out about how much all the makeup cost. I asked if Jake ever wore makeup, knowing that his transition really just began in earnest quite recently, and that some of the boys in their group wear makeup, too. Elder said, “No, Jake doesn’t wear makeup. He’s a typical dude.” Hearing that the middle-school set, even in red-state suburbia, can so easily accept their transgender peers with such ease made me really happy.
WereBear
@lamh36: I used to love it. Can’t look at Mel Gibson any more, though. Just. Too. Weird.
Mnemosyne
@debbie:
He’s not actually getting greater support, though, which is why he’s far behind in the polls and losing many of the same voters that McCain and Romney won. Trump is getting much more vocal support from those much smaller numbers, but that’s a different kettle of fish.
SWMBO
@Citizen_X: Will check it out.
I posted Trae’s Black Lives Matter video on facebook on my cousin’s line. She has three biracial children living in Texas and they were needing some way of responding to All Lives Matter. If nothing else, his perspective has helped those kids have a good comeback. It may yet help the next generation bridge the divide so that it will get easier down the road for all races and colors.
scav
@Mnemosyne: Not only noisy vocal support, but also more easily televised support (albeit in a sort of train-wreck Springer fashion very often). Romney supporters on TV would have been far more reminiscent of paint drying most of the time.
lamh36
@WereBear: the Fox tv series actually.
Stars Damon Wayons as Murtaugh and this new guy as Riggs.
Watched the first ep and I really enjoyed it.
Apparently alot of folks did cause it was given a full season pickup…
hovercraft
@Corner Stone:
The media is trying, but they are starting to realize that they are not going to get the shiny new toy that would be a Trump administration, and on top of that they aren’t going to get their republican check in the senate to hold Hillary in check.
They are still clinging to the CHANGE election meme. But how are they going to explain Bayh and Feingold and the democrats defeating up and comers like Ayotte. The voters seem to want democrats in charge not the GOP, that is also CHANGE, just not the type they’re talking about.
WereBear
@lamh36: Oh, cool. I will check that out.
debbie
@Corner Stone:
They have always supported Strickland — up until this election. He’s never done anything anti-union, as far as I know. Kay may know better.
Doug R
@lamh36: I find this new interpretation of Riggs to be more believable than Gibson’s in the movie series. Much more subtle. Wayans as Murtaugh is pretty good too.
Pogonip
@TaMara (HFG): your DOG has company coming? Or is there also a person named Bailey in the picture?
Anoniminous
Factoid to put into the mix: fifteen billionaires own the six corporations that own 90% of US media.
hovercraft
@Baud:
Did you ask Jake Tapper about why that is?
debbie
Listening to Roger Stone stick up for a Trump presidency was a lousy way to begin a Sunday morning.
lamh36
@Doug R: Yes…I agree. Gibson’s Riggs was soo movie plotline over the top but for the time was ok.
I do like the subtlety of the new guy. I also like the Murtaugh wife…
The chemistry of the cast is really good
Villago Delenda Est
@hovercraft: You’d think that they’d be all for a wave election favoring the Dems, strictly for the ratings friendliness of a huge story that turns everything upside down. Not to mention the ’73 Belmont Stakes was the most exciting horse race I’ve ever seen.
WaterGirl
@Omnes Omnibus: Bummer! I really put some thought and time into it.
philadelphialawyer
@Botsplainer: Um, the guy in his “precious” window seat probably reserved it early, because that is what he prefers. And, just maybe, your sullenness, and the emotional state in general of the particular stranger he is inevitably (even if he goes along with your request, his seatmate is going to be a stranger) sitting next to, is not his highest priority. What is with it Entitlement Couples who think that they have the right to make us single folks move around, to suit your preferences, and to compensate for the fact that you, unlike me, in a situation where reserved and assigned seating is the rule, did NOT book your seats according to those preferences?
I am in my assigned and booked seat. It is a window seat, which I prefer. I booked it early. I boarded as soon as I could. I am all settled in, my stuff is in the overhead above my seat, my sedative of choice (legal, of course), is taking effect…..aaaah…Then you and your spouse flounce in, two minutes before take off, and demand I move to an aisle seat, X number of rows away from where my stuff is stored (in an overhead rack that is now full), just so you two can sit together in adjacent seats that you didn’t book.
No.
Another Scott
Sam at PEC has bumped up the Senate from 50:50 to 51:49. Woot! Let’s run the table!!
Cheers,
Scott.
Monala
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: Several years ago, my daughter and I watched a series of kid flicks on Netflix about a spunky girl named Bookie from a white working class family living during the Depression. It was fiction, of course, but well-researched and authentic.
I was stunned by how often the parents told their kids that they were strong and independent and didn’t take handouts from anyone. This, even though they got free healthcare at a charity hospital, free food from a food pantry, and the kids got free lunch at school. In fact , when Bookie is kicked out of the free lunch program for making fun of the food, her parents go up to the school and threaten to call the local paper and tell them they’re letting poor kids starve if they don’t reinstate her.
Never at any point did it seem to occur to this family that their motto of self-reliance wasn’t true. It made me wonder how many white people heard a similar message from their family, so much that they believe it, even when it’s patently false. (See actor Craig Nelson, claiming no one ever helped him when he was on welfare and food stamps).
In contrast, I was at an event yesterday for African American families, and so many people shared how they wouldn’t be where they are today without all the people who helped them, and that’s why they have to give back.
gene108
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
Forgot who brought this up, but a good while back he or she pointed out that small towns are struggling, poor, and with a lot of folks on government aid programs. And the people they get pissed off with is “cousin Bobby”, who might could get a job, but in their opinion is too lazy and just mooches off the system.
So they’d rather not vote for Democrats so the cousin Bobbies can get a kick in the butt and get working.
WaterGirl
@Pogonip: I’m sure it’s a play date for the puppy!
edit: or perhaps someone coming to meet Bailey for the first time.
Chris T.
@WereBear: There’s no such thing as no accent.
There are some classic words for separating similar (e.g., many east-coast) accents: get someone to say “Mary, marry, merry” for instance. Word choice is also a locator: sack vs bag, soda vs pop, and so on. Of course there are some dead giveaways, such as “bubbler” (water fountain).
philadelphialawyer
@gene108: Yeah, but “cousin Bobby” votes Republican too! And, as Monala points out, it is not just “cousin Bobby” who gets benefits from the government, or private charity, or both, or family, etc.
An aunt of mine is all for Trump. Lower middle class woman. Gets Medicare. Sent seven kids to public school: 13 years times seven kids, ie 91 years of school from “the government.” Her taxes certainly did not even come close to covering just those two items alone.
Corner Stone
Kellyanne Conway is one of the most despicable people in our current political sphere. Post 11/8 it is my fervent hope she never, ever be heard from again about anything.
West of the Rockies (been a while)
@Monala:
I’m hard-pressed to think of an actor less charismatic and more full of himself than Craig T. Nelson.
West of the Rockies (been a while)
@Corner Stone: She reminds me of a younger version of Jan Brewer, spouting talking points and lacking any integrity or self awareness.
hovercraft
Breitbart News To Hire Curt Schilling Days After He Was Criticized By The Head Of The Anti-Defamation
Corner Stone
GFY Thomas Friedman.
Joel
@Ruckus: demographic stuff is too fucking granular for my tastes. All this discussion of the white working class reminds me of the prop 8 discussion about black people, and not in a good way.
Baud
@Corner Stone: He almost certainly has.
Suzanne
@philadelphialawyer: I know a LOT of LDS families out here in the Phoenix East Valley who are voting for Trump for the same reason, never mind that many of the families had at least six children, if not more, and were on free lunch at public school because God forbid a Mormon mother have a job. McMullin didn’t make the ballot. LMAO.
hovercraft
@Villago Delenda Est:
They want change, not towards democrats, if there is a republican hose and senate with a democratic president, then they can cover the friction. If the GOP holds onto the senate, then they get to cover the endless fight to get Clinton’s cabinet and sub-candidate nominees confirmed, and of course the biggest fights over the supreme court and the rest of the judiciary.
WaterGirl
@lamh36: I laughed out loud though the whole thing. Too funny. And yes, sad, when you think about the sad truth of it. Still funny enough that I am going to watch it again right now.
hovercraft
@Corner Stone:
Based on her success wooing women in this campaign, she will continue to be the go to consultant/pollster for campaigns that need help with women.
aimai
@Josie: I don’t know you and Idon’t know your history so, naturally, I am not attacking you or your history at all. I apologize if I took your comment the wrong way but it rubbed me the wrong way. There are lots of kinds of bigotry and ugliness in this country but the idea that important people, or elitists, or northern school kids are uniquely or even meaningfully oppressive to white guys with southern accents is just silly. It reminds me of the people who say that “prejudice against christians” or “prejudice against people with red hair” is the last kind of prejudice that is permitted. Its simply to take small personal issue and to blow it up into an enormous personal and social grievance and to project one’s own feelings of anxiety onto the rest of the world. Its a solipsistic fantasy that everybody is thinking about and judging you, or your son. In reality they are all probably just struggling with their own shit. Shit that neither you, nor he, nor I, have any idea about. But I can assure you that you are not the only single mother, and he isn’t the only kid raised in poverty, in his school.
Mnemosyne
@Monala:
Yep. I still remember my parents simultaneously praising Medicaid and disparaging Obamacare because … they’re different things? My brother’s friend was on Medicaid for cancer treatment at the time and was getting great care, but God forbid if he had ended up on Obamacare instead.
I still have a little whiplash from that one. Or possibly a minor aneurism from repressing my scream of, They’re the exact same thing! Will you turn off Fox News for one goddamned minute so you can see reality?!?
Denali
I get Trey Chowder because I am originally from the same neck of the woods. I get how the Bible Belt and spite can warp minds. The phrase white trash was coined for a reason. But I don’t get how evangelicals can embrace Donald Trump.
Mnemosyne
@aimai:
She didn’t say that. What she did say was that the other students at the college underestimated her son because he had a Southern accent and was raised in poverty, and you read a whole lot more into it than was intended.
MattF
@Corner Stone: I wouldn’t bet on that. She’s got a long history of defending indefensible political candidates. It’s her life’s work.
Botsplainer
@philadelphialawyer:
With that attitude, no wonder you’re single.
“I booked it, so I won’t make an accommodation to people who pleasantly make a small request because I’m a pathetic single traveler and wish to passively show my rage at my status” is a helluva great attitude.
I’ve made that accommodation every single time asked, graciously.
germy
@philadelphialawyer: My wife and I paid ahead of time for plane tickets, reserved our seats next to each other. A total of four plane rides, seated together.
When we showed up at the airport, they told us we couldn’t sit next to each other.
philadelphialawyer
@Botsplainer: No, I won’t accomodate your request, because you are a complete stranger, and have no more right to be fully satisfied with the seating arrangements than I do. And yet you are trying to shame me into just that, first on bogus grounds of courtesy (because “courtesy” means you get your way and I don’t, even though there is no inherent reason why that should be the case, and even though I am not asking you for anything, while you are asking to me to cede the seat that I booked, paid for and am actually already occupying at the moment), and now on my alleged social inadequacy, evidenced by the fact that I, like hundreds of millions of other people, sometimes travel alone. All because you and whoever are joined at the hip, and can’t bear to sit apart by a few feat for a few hours in what is a public setting.
You wouldn’t know graciousness if it bit you in the butt. Get off my cloud, suck it up, sit in your assigned seat, and zip it, jack.
Major Major Major Major
Whenever I’m over my article limit at the WaPo and I visit, it gives me the popup to try and make me subscribe that says “you obviously love great journalism…” Before reopening the link in an incognito window to bypass this, I roll my eyes and think, and yet, here I am…
Cckids
@Anoniminous:
My spouse early voted yesterday (in Las Vegas), and at the machine next to him was a loud Trump supporter (“I’m voting Republican up & down the ballot!”), who had not a single clue how to use the voting machine. These same machines have been in use since at least 1996, so who knows if he’d ever voted before. The poll worker/saint attempting to help him had to endure a diatribe about “why should I have to choose a language? These should only be in English!” Etc, etc. He was still working on it when the spouse left. My guy gave the exit person a smile & said “I bet you’re having an interesting day”, she refrained from rolling her eyes but quietly said, “You have no idea”.
So now I am a bit nervous about this stupid state. I don’t for a minute believe there’s an army of uninformed white guys who can swing this to Trump, but apparently at least some of them figured out how to register, and are showing up.
SFBayAreaGal
@Villago Delenda Est: I was stationed at Ft. Lewis from 1976-1978. When were you at Ft. Lewis?
Pogonip
@WaterGirl: You know your life’s dull when a dog’s social calendar is fuller than yours. What’s next, canine calling cards of the paper variety? Dog butlers? (“Madam will see you as soon as she has finished licking her butt.”). Donald Trump saying, “Wow, if that puppy was a little older…”?
philadelphialawyer
@germy: And that proves what? If I am in my assigned seat, and like it, that’s just too bad, cuz the airline messed up your arrangements, so I have to move?
Gin & Tonic
@philadelphialawyer: Witty repartee like this is what keeps me coming back here.
Omnes Omnibus
@philadelphialawyer: If you are in an aisle seat, do you refuse to get up to let the window seat person get out to use the restroom as well?
aimai
@Mnemosyne: Yes, I did. Because this election, like every other one, is soaking in endless, weepy, reminders about southern white males and their issues with the rest of the country. There are a fuckload of other people at every school who also get underestimated because of their skin color, their size, their sex, their ethnicity, and their accents. Southern White Males are not the only people who deal with stereotyping–far from it. And they generally have other compensating advantages such as whiteness, or maleness, to fall back on to enable them to handle the vanishingly small amount of trouble their accent causes them. One of them even went on to become President of the United States. I am just so, so, very over hearing about the trials and tribulations of a small portion of the country. Sothern males have been demanding sympathy and special treatment since the revolution. I save my tears for real emergencies.
Josie
@Mnemosyne: Thank you.
Major Major Major Major
@philadelphialawyer: I’m going to agree with “no wonder you’re single”.
philadelphialawyer
@Omnes Omnibus: No. Why would you think so? I am all about following the rules in situations like this. The rules are there to ensure fairness to everyone.
I book way, way in advance, when I fly. I get exactly the seat I want (which, by the way, is never an aisle seat). And I want to sit in that seat. That’s following the rules. And that does NOT mean that I try to carry on more than is allowed, or hog the armrest, or, if I were on the aisle, would refuse to let the window seat passenger use the rest room, or any such thing that does not constitute following the rules.
germy
@philadelphialawyer: It proves that the couple could have planned ahead of time to sit next to each other. You said
We booked our trip three months in advance. Chose our seats carefully and got confirmation that we’d be seated together. We even paid extra to make sure we’d be together next to a window, rather than in the middle of the plane.
When we showed up at the airport, they reassigned our seats. I’m not saying you HAVE to surrender your seat. I agree, why should you? But don’t assume couples have been separated because they didn’t bother planning ahead.
philadelphialawyer
@Major Major Major Major: Thanks, your anonymous internet opinion of my social life and my personality is so important to me. Here, take my seat, asshole.
Steeplejack (phone)
@Anoniminous:
Link? Not skeptical; it would be useful for future debating with wingnuts.
Jim Parene
@philadelphialawyer: I have to agree with you.
Josie
@aimai: God, who appointed you special arbiter of all that is good and holy. I repeat, my son did not suffer, he did not expect or get special treatment. I was making a joking reference to the fact that he was originally judged on his accent, as I was 50 years ago when I traveled out of Texas. It is amusing to us that our accents always cause us to be pigeon-holed by people, like yourself, who should know better. We are not, however, asking for sympathy or anything else, just making an observation.
philadelphialawyer
@germy: Usually, that is the reason. I am not going to “assume” that, most times, the airline has screwed up. Your Amusing Anecdote to the contrary notwithstanding.
Omnes Omnibus
@philadelphialawyer: I was just checking. Do you have a list of the rules that must be followed and/or the requests that can be safely declined?
Major Major Major Major
@philadelphialawyer: Seems to be bothering you, so I’ll score it a success. Also, you seem to think that being single is a perfectly legitimate lifestyle choice, so why should somebody pointing out that you have the personality traits of a single person bother you?
You also as @germy noted seem to be laboring under the misapprehension that germy somehow didn’t follow the rules and book their seats in advance.
Now, what we have here is two sets of people who booked their seats in advance, one of which contains two people and one of which contains one. We can, for the duration of the flight, make two people unhappy or we can make one person unhappy. Just because the one person in this situation is you doesn’t make a decision not to accommodate right.
germy
Good, then don’t “assume”
Mnemosyne
@aimai:
Josie is a regular (though she hasn’t been around quite as much since she moved), so your reaction seemed a little over-the-top. She’s a West Coaster, so maybe you haven’t seen her around as much as I have?
WaterGirl
@Pogonip: I don’t know, I love that TaMara arranges play dates for BIxby, and now for Bailey. It seems to me that TaMara has a lovely, full life, not boring at all. :-)
Major Major Major Major
@philadelphialawyer: You might want to be more careful about using the pronoun ‘you’ to mean ‘a generic person/couple’ when responding to somebody who just told a story about themselves and their partner, then.
redshirt
Sincerely, this is a fascinating discussion on giving up a seat.
I can see both sides of the argument fairly easily, and both have merit.
Maybe instead of getting angry at each other, we should get angry at the airlines?
Major Major Major Major
@redshirt: I think that horse sailed when philidelphialawyer
joined the conversationdecided to be a dick about it, but i repeat myselfMnemosyne
@philadelphialawyer:
So if you show up at the airport and it turns out that the airline screwed up and booked you into an aisle seat by mistake, you quietly accept that and never ask to be moved to the seat you originally requested?
philadelphialawyer
@germy: No, I will assume the usual case, which is that you did not book adjoining seats. @Major Major Major Major:
“… what we have here is two sets of people who booked their seats in advance, one of which contains two people and one of which contains one. We can, for the duration of the flight, make two people unhappy or we can make one person unhappy. Just because the one person in this situation is you doesn’t make a decision not to accommodate right.”
(1) That is the exception, not the rule.
(2) Again, it is not about being “me,” it is about wanting to sit in the seat I booked, paid for and am occupying.
To deal with both of the above, let’s just take the case where, like Germy, the seat I booked and paid for in advance is for some reason NOT available. When I get my boarding pass, and I see it is not what I booked, I would complain. If the airline said, “Well, we screwed up, and read the fine print, you are not actually guaranteed that seat,” I would be unhappy. I might ask for a refund, or to be re assigned to some unoccupied seat. What I would not do is ask some innocent third party to give up his or her assigned seat.
Is that so hard to understand? And do we have to deal with every hypothetical microvariation scenario.
I ain’t moving for you: your fault, the airline’s fault, no one’s fault. Unless you are elderly, infirm, pregnant, or the like.
philadelphialawyer
@Major Major Major Major: Whatever. Changing the subject. And gibberish anyway, as “you” can mean more than one person.
workworkwork
@WereBear: I think Trader Joe’s has riced cauliflower but still seems like too much trouble.
philadelphialawyer
@Major Major Major Major: Right. And Botsplainer led off with a reasoned, balanced, exploration of the ethics of the situation, and didn’t at all preen in his self righteousness. Nor was he the first to make it personal, with his “no wonder you are single” crack. Which you did nothing to pile on to, in your wonderfully enlightening opening salvo.
GFY
Mnemosyne
@philadelphialawyer:
Except that, when you complain, the airline personnel will ask another passenger to move. So you’re okay with the airline doing your dirty work for you of asking someone to move to accommodate your preferences, but you get mad if someone else does the same thing?
philadelphialawyer
@Mnemosyne</a:What part of "unoccupied" don't you understand?
Cheryl from Maryland
@Botsplainer: I agree with Philadelphiawyer — A long time ago, I was on my first trip to Europe. It was just short of my 21st birthday. I had carefully made plans to pay for a window seat so I could look out on the ocean and enjoy my first trip abroad. A woman sitting next to me with her son asked me early on to exchange seats with her and her young son because “it was his first trip to Europe.” My reply — “No, it is also mine, and I planned and paid for the view.” PS, I am not single.
workworkwork
@germy: So values are an optional extra?
Major Major Major Major
@philadelphialawyer: I would like to take the opportunity to apologize as I’d just gotten some bad news and acted out over the innertubes, as you noted, anonymously.
Ruckus
@Joel:
I understand. It’s easier to pigeonhole people according to what we see and perceive than to spent the time to get the whole picture. It is also what racism, misogyny and all the other hateful things are, and liberals do it too, even if we think we hate for all the right reasons.
But some days I just have to look for the better side, to try to look for some way to clarify rather than to categorize and miscategorize. We have to fight for a better way, a better world, categorizing all white working men as racists doesn’t do that any more than categorizing all blacks as lazy and shiftless. We aren’t and neither are they. I don’t know a better way, we do seem to have a need to put people and things in places, to find order (however you define that) to make a relatively nonsensical world make sense. All bikers are members of the Hell’s Angels, all wwc men are racist pigs, all blacks like one kind of music….. and on and on. We all are somewhat or a lot guilty of this, I think we should do better or at least try to.
germy
@philadelphialawyer: I actually agree with you. The airline has outsourced it’s job to you. It shouldn’t be your responsibility to ensure a couple can be seated next to each other. That’s the airline’s job when the couple has reserved seats ahead of time together.
If you have a definite seating preference, if you arranged to be seated next to a window, or if you prefer to sit in the middle, you shouldn’t be forced to change your preference for an Entitled Couple™ who decided to flounce onto the plane at the last minute to demand your seat.
My question is why can’t airlines keep their word when it comes to seating? Why do they overbook and bump people who have paid for their seat?
I dislike the airlines and I dislike most passengers. Some individual airline employees have been nice and competent. They are the exception to the rule. Some passengers have been nice; they also were the exception to the rule.
Another Scott
@Josie: To further your point, in the hope of turning down the temperature a little here… ;-)
J and her twin sister attended a private grade school in NoVA (St. Agnes) in the ’60s. When her father got transferred to the Boston suburbs, they were initially put in a “slow learners” class there because they had a Virginia accent. Her parent complained. A few weeks later, they skipped a grade because they were so far ahead of their classmates… ;-)
Cheers,
Scott.
Kay Eye
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: Yep.
Paul LePage is all that keeps Texas from being the bottom of the dumpster, governor-wise.
And Carolyn Chute is a damn fine and darkly funny writer. I repeat my rec for her work.
redshirt
I think giving up the seat is context dependent. Just because someone asks doesn’t mean you have to.
That’s true everywhere – should you give up your seat on a crowded subway car to a 30 year old apparently healthy guy if he asked? No. But you should voluntarily give it up for an 80 year old man.
Josie
@Another Scott: Sounds familiar. Luckily, it is a misconception that is easily disproved. Thanks.
Denali
@everybody,
As everybody has probably noticed, there are veryfew unoccupied seats on airlines nowadays. I flew by myself recently, on short notice to my aunt’s funeral. As a relatively small person, I don’t mind the middle seat. The aisle is definitely annoying because the flight attendants and passengers constantly bump your arm when moving down the aisle. I don’t see why couples need to be seated together on short flights; I do see that parents would want to be their
children. I think people do have a right to refuse to move; I do wish people would be more considerate of others and not make wrong assumptions. So there.
Ruckus
@Omnes Omnibus:
Oh, call on me, I know the answer to that one!
The answer is, if I’m an entitled asshole who never does anything for anyone else because I don’t have to, no I don’t get up. Most of us aren’t normally that big of asshole.
I once had a window seat and the extra large person who pushed me out of the way while storing my bag and sat down and wouldn’t get up so I could get by when politely asked. I just climbed over him, stuck my ass in his face going by and dropped into my seat. He didn’t say a word. If I had needed to take a leak and he wouldn’t move I’d have done the same thing 2 more times. I’m a very nice guy but my better angels do have their days off occasionally.
Mnemosyne
@philadelphialawyer:
How do you know for sure that the airline didn’t bump someone else to accommodate you because you made a big fuss? Again, the fact that they did your dirty work for you shouldn’t make any difference in your scheme of things.
I don’t think it’s rude to ask if someone is willing to accommodate a request, but I also don’t think it’s rude to politely refuse the request. My husband and I would have liked to sit next to each other on our way home from his father’s funeral, but it wasn’t a big deal that we couldn’t.
ETA: Also, too, the length of the flight has something to do with it. Not sitting with my husband on a 4 or 6-hour domestic flight is no big deal but a long international flight would be a different matter.
Doug R
@philadelphialawyer: I tend to agree. The caveats being if there is a young child or disabled person who needs assistance. Otherwise, what’s wrong with being apart from your spouse for a few lousy hours? OMG, you might talk to someone new. Isn’t that why you’re travelling, so you can meet other people?
SWMBO
@Botsplainer: I’m confused. Neither Window nor Aisle would move to let your wife sit next to you? Even if Aisle could move three rows forward and still be on an aisle seat? That’s understandable irritation. The irritation at Window guy? Not so much. Or did I completely misread this?
Ruckus
@Ruckus:
I will also say that I’ve held infants and watched kids for people who needed someone to do that while they stowed their gear, and if asked nicely I will change seats. A couple weeks ago the crowded commuter train I was standing (packed) in wouldn’t move because the brakes wouldn’t unlock due to overloading. The driver begged some people to get off. A few did, he begged more and no one moved. As I was standing in the middle of the car I would have a tough time of getting off. But when he begged again and no one standing at the door would move, I said out loud, “Fuck it I’ll get off, none of us are moving until people get off” and pushed my way out. It took two more tries and the sheriff standing on the platform to get enough people to not be so fucking selfish. And the next train was along in less than 5 minutes. And I got a seat. It cost me nothing.
WaterGirl
For what it’s worth, I don’t think it’s rude to ask and I don’t think it’s rude to say no. I think part of the social contract that makes it okay to ask for something like that is that you acknowledge that it’s also okay for the other person to say no. You have no “right” to what you are asking for; you are asking a stranger for a favor.
But making a comment like “no wonder you’re single”? That is just plain rude.
debbie
I’m just glad I don’t have to fly anymore.
SWMBO
@WaterGirl: Wasn’t he getting a divorce? And stopped posting about it because it could possibly be used in the divorce against him? Did he marry someone else or did they reconcile?
germy
@Denali:
I agree about short flights. A ten hour trip to Europe, and then another ten hour trip back home, I’d like to be seated next to my traveling companion, especially when we reserved our seats together months in advance.
But it shouldn’t be up to passengers to negotiate proper seating with each other. The airlines shouldn’t overbook and treat their customers like cattle.
Cheryl from Maryland
I also agree with all of the comments about how the airlines outsource their issues to travelers. My husband was on a plane once and ended up seated next to a woman with an assistance dog. He is DEATHLY allergic to animal dander. What he had to go through to get moved to another seat was painful and probably only successful because he is a lawyer.
Doug R
@redshirt: Redshirt with the win!
eclare
I think those clips were great, and I may buy his book. But like him, I am also from TN, where the leaves and rednecks turn orange in the fall. Also, why is orange UT’s color? You wear it to the game Saturday, you wear it hunting Sunday, and you wear it on the road crew on Monday!
Pogonip
@WaterGirl: No, I meant MY life was boring.
WaterGirl
@Pogonip: So sorry, I completely missed your point!
Ruckus
@debbie:
Me too. I used to fly regularly, as in almost every week and I’m amazed that people seem to think it’s anything more than a bus with wings. But lately I’ve replaced it with commuter trains and a bus. It is a lot different as disabled people use these a lot and they take precedence. Seats reserved for them, areas for their wheelchairs. Most people are quite accommodating but there are always some who have to be told. Friday I had to get up for a lady that had no arms but did have hands and an electric wheelchair. She rates very high in my book for people who have an actual shitty life verses people who feel that life should be treating them better. That and the guy I saw about 3 weeks ago at the VA who had lost both legs, way above the knee and had 2 steel posts with large pads on the bottom, located about where his knees should have been. He walked by himself and had a smile on his face, which was located just over table high.
Grumpy Code Monkey
@aimai:
Just the one?
Clinton, Carter, Johnson, Wilson?
redshirt
@Ruckus: How does someone have no arms but has hands?
Matt McIrvin
@Grumpy Code Monkey: For decades, it was an accepted fact of life that only a Southern white male could be elected President as a Democrat.
Suzanne
Here is the flying scenario I cannot abide: dudes with wide shoulders or who manspread. We make overweight people buy a second seat if they are wider than the seat, but not men with big shoulders or who spread their legs. If you are wider than the seat anywhere, then you should buy a second seat. How many flights have I limped off because I spent the whole flight contorted into a pretzel trying to avoid physical contact with a stranger? Answer: many.
scav
@redshirt: Thalidomide a strong candidate for how. Practically, just have very short arm bones.
redshirt
@Suzanne: Relatedly, I am tired and defeated by the arm rest wars. I give it up. It’s yours.
WereBear
@redshirt: When they are born that way.
WereBear
@Suzanne: I know a way to make manspreaders curl up in a ball. (She laughs evilly.)
Suzanne
@redshirt: Me too.
This is making me a bit apprehensive, as I have to fly on Wednesday and Thursday, and it’s for a project interview we just got shortlisted for, so my flight was just booked on Friday. This is gonna suck.
WereBear
Flying sucks, and I am resigned to it.
Omnes Omnibus
FWIW, in about 90% of situations where was asked if would change seats to allow people to sit together, I would do so. I don’t mind doing minor favors that make other people happy. If someone is demanding, I may well not do it. In that case, I would decline politely. If I have a particular reason or need for the seat I am in, I would say no and explain why.
Villago Delenda Est
@SFBayAreaGal: Well, I was there for the summer of 1978 (ROTC summer camp and three weeks as a “Third Lieutenant” at 2/4 FA, then again on active duty from 1983-1987, year off to Korea, and back again from 1988-1990.
Omnes Omnibus
@Villago Delenda Est: Third Lieutenant?
Steeplejack (tablet)
@eclare:
Okay, that’s funny!
john fremont
@Ruckus: This. The friends that I have that are Trump supporters are people that moved from blue collar to white collar positions through their career. They think all of the time they spent going to college in their off time to earn better salaries and move up will be all for naught if those millenials start getting “free college.” They also think their taxes will go up and say why did I do the extra work to get ahead and better myself only to have my taxes raised to help out slackers and lump lumps!
Steeplejack (tablet)
@Omnes Omnibus:
ROTC “intern” joke, I believe. Lower than snake shit but not enlisted!
Omnes Omnibus
@Steeplejack (tablet): We called them Cadidiots when we got stuck with them.
Ruckus
@Steeplejack (tablet):
And of course there is the old joke of when someone calls you sir. “I’m not a sir, I work for a living.” Bullshit works both ways.
Ruckus
@scav:
She looked about the age of being a thalidomide child so that’s my suspicion. She seems to have adapted OK. Bet it was and is far from easy.
JR in WV
@Major Major Major Major:
Sorry to hear you got bad news. Admire your adult apology.
I like the aisle seat, as once service is over I can stand up and stretch a little. I am a little bit of a wide body, partly from hard work on hobbies, partly from being medically retired from that hard work. So I try hard to not irritate fellow people in seats nearby.
Take care.
JR
WaterGirl
@JR in WV: @Major Major Major Major: I admired the apology, too, and should have said so. The comment seemed so out of character for M4 who is truly one of the good guys.
Villago Delenda Est
@Omnes Omnibus: Yeah, it’s a way to put you somewhere in the hierarchy when you have no actual status. Surely you had some Hudson High types during the summer hanging out learning some ropes in your unit?
Omnes Omnibus
@Villago Delenda Est: See above.
Matt McIrvin
@Corner Stone:
Trump should have been the perfect candidate–he knows all about change; he’s gone in all the changing rooms.