Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

A lot of Dems talk about what the media tells them to talk about. Not helpful.

Some judge needs to shut this circus down soon.

Meanwhile over at truth Social, the former president is busy confessing to crimes.

Fight them, without becoming them!

After dobbs, women are no longer free.

Proof that we need a blogger ethics panel.

There are no moderate republicans – only extremists and cowards.

When you’re in more danger from the IDF than from Russian shelling, that’s really bad.

Republicans firmly believe having an abortion is a very personal, very private decision between a woman and J.D. Vance.

Biden: Oh no. We’ve upset Big Pharma again.

The US Supreme Court is on the ballot in november.

Let the trolls come, and then ignore them. that’s the worst thing you can do to a troll.

I desperately hope that, yet again, I am wrong.

Nikki Haley, who can’t acknowledge ‘slavery’, is a pathetic shill.

Everything is totally normal and fine!!!

I’m pretty sure there’s only one Jack Smith.

I like you, you’re my kind of trouble.

Their freedom requires your slavery.

Relentless negativity is not a sign that you are more realistic.

Wow, you are pre-disappointed. How surprising.

Never entrust democracy to any process that requires Republicans to act in good faith.

How can republicans represent us when they don’t trust women?

It could be worse. Vance could have said “post-menopausal sows.” Waiting for that audiotape to surface.

Seems like a complicated subject, have you tried yelling at it?

You are here: Home / Gun Issues / Gun nuts / We’ll Just Go Ahead and File This Under “White Privilege”

We’ll Just Go Ahead and File This Under “White Privilege”

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You gotta be fucking kidding me:

Ammon and Ryan Bundy have been found not guilty of conspiracy. Their five co-defendants Jeff Banta, Shawna Cox, David Fry, Kenneth Medenbach and Neil Wampler have all been found not guilty as well.

Jurors were unable to reach a verdict on Ryan Bundy’s theft of government property charge.

The jury returned its verdict after some six weeks of testimony followed by less than six hours deliberations, and the last minute replacement of a juror after an allegation surfaced that he was biased.

The jury was instructed to disregard their previous work and to re-consider the evidence.

I got nothing.

Reader Interactions

392Comments

  5. 5.

    chopper

    great, now every RW jackhole is going to think about grabbing a gun and ‘occupying’ some federal building.

  7. 7.

    dr. bloor

    @NYCMT: Yep. Read a piece on the prosecutor the other day–oozes competence. Looks like there just weren’t twelve people in that jury pool willing to convict white terrori–er, cowboys.

  11. 11.

    Kryptik

    Repeating this from the end of the previous thread since it’s more on-topic here:

    I really want to know the mindset of the jurors when they deliberated and made that call, because….holy fuck, what did the trial demonstrate that would un-damn them considering their own fucking statements and behavior? They literally didn’t hide what the hell they were doing and couched it in sovcit bullshit.

  14. 14.

    Mary G

    It’s all of a piece with Trump’s “cancel the election and make me president.” Laws don’t mean shit if we say so.

  17. 17.

    piratedan

    my biggest fear is how this will be “interpreted” by anyone else who feels “repressed and oppressed” by electoral system and feels “compelled” to “do something about it”…

    It makes me want to stick that jury with the bill to clean up the refuge. Fine, YOU pay for it.

  21. 21.

    Wapiti

    Now that’s pretty mind boggling. Clinton’s going to have problems down the road with this. (The seeds were of course sown when the USG didn’t force the issue in Nevada, imho.)

  25. 25.

    Kryptik

    @piratedan:

    For all the talk about ‘legislating from the bench’, this seems like as transparent a case of ignoring or re-writing law because ‘them’s good ol’ boys’ as there is.

  26. 26.

    LAO

    As a defense attorney, who has, on occasion, successfully employed a nullification defense, I’m fucking stunned. And worried about all those goddamn gun nuts running around in this country.

  29. 29.

    Patricia Kayden

    @chopper: They don’t have to think about it anymore. They can do it and get away with it now. Yippee!!

    Contrast that with how Native Americans are being tased and physically assaulted in North Dakota while peacefully protesting.

  31. 31.

    Amaranthine RBG

    At any point in the occupation, did any federal employee attempt to do their job at the building? Or did they just stay away?

  33. 33.

    Mary G

    Well, it should cut down on the Podesta email nothingburger-but-it-raises-questions coverage at least.

  34. 34.

    gene108

    Are there any other charges they can be found guilty of?

    Trespassing, maybe?

    Vandalism?

    And I got nothing…

  35. 35.

    Mike J

    @chopper:

    great, now every RW jackhole is going to think about grabbing a gun and ‘occupying’ some federal building.

    LaVoy Finicum won’t. Only way to handle them.

  37. 37.

    hovercraft

    Here’s What Happened When Black People Tried Armed Occupation

    30 years ago, a similar standoff between police and a black anti-government group in Philadelphia played out very differently. Armed members of a fringe liberation group called MOVE were bombed and burned alive for directing their weapons at police. The bombing highlighted the stark contrast in the way cops treat black and white radicals…….

    They pointed deluge guns at the house and yelled at the people inside to evacuate. Tear gas was thrown into the building to smoke them out. But when someone started shooting back, the officers returned the gunfire with 10,000 rounds. Without knowing how many people were inside, they began throwing explosives at the house. And when nobody came out, they dropped a bomb from a helicopter — setting off a fire that spread to 65 homes and that firefighters were ordered not to put out.
    In the end, one woman and one child made it out of the house alive. Five children and six adults were killed.

    But I’m sure if this had happened today, they would have been allowed to walk free, and if tried they too would have been acquitted. Right?

  41. 41.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Patricia Kayden:

    Contrast that with how Native Americans are being tased and physically assaulted in North Dakota while peacefully protesting.

    This year is playing merry hell with my emotional stability.

  44. 44.

    raven

    ” Ammon Bundy’s attorney fought with judge, agents moved in & tackled attorney, media rushed out of court, I’ve never seen that before!”

  45. 45.

    dr. bloor

    @Mike J: I keep trying to be bigger than thinking stuff like Nathan Bedford Forrest and Bobby Lee should have been hanged, and the National Guard should have tilled the entire Bundy family into their precious soil, but it’s getting more difficult.

  48. 48.

    Patricia Kayden

    @hovercraft:

     setting off a fire that spread to 65 homes and that firefighters were ordered not to put out.

    I remember when this happened. Shocking even so many decades later.

  50. 50.

    Kryptik

    @Matt McIrvin:

    It does call into question just how stacked the deck really is. We know the stacking is real, just seems like to a more significant, absurd level than we realized.

  51. 51.

    jl

    Difficult to believe.
    If the acquittals encourage any goofballs to try another crime like this, they may hurt or kill someone next time.
    And I’ll bet the results of the subsequent trial will be different.
    But would be sad and tragic result of this mistake.

  53. 53.

    SenyorDave

    Maybe Trump should win and white people should get a taste of being fwcked by the gov’t on an everyday basis.

  56. 56.

    Kryptik

    @jl:

    I’m honestly not sure the results would even be different. I’m sure they could manage to find a jury that would be able to find the deaths such assholes cause ‘justifiable’. And I’m not sure there’d be a way to un-fuck the court system if that happened.

  57. 57.

    Patricia Kayden

    @Amaranthine RBG: Not sure how to answer your question but if I was an employee who worked in the building that was taken over, I would have stayed away until the “Patriots” were out of the building. They were well armed and angry and there is no doubt that they would have killed any federal employee who challenged them.

  58. 58.

    Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (Formerly Mumphrey, et al.)

    We live in a society that looks upon Black guys as threats, even when they are shown not to be armed or doing anything against the law, and looks at armed white guys who have already shot people and doesn’t see any big deal or scary threat. (I know that these armed white guys didn’t shoot anybody, but lots of white guys with guns who have shot somebody get taken in without a drop of blood spilled.)

  62. 62.

    Patricia Kayden

    @Major Major Major Major: I’m trying to convince myself that I’m not shocked but I am. This doesn’t bode well for this country with all the angry, armed men who live here — especially under a Clinton administration. Sigh.

  64. 64.

    Eric U.

    I think we may need to go back to forcefully retaking a government building now and then so these pukes can martyr themselves.

  67. 67.

    goblue72

    And thus why when this was going on I suggested the FBI just storm the damn place and shoot these cretins. Because that would be actual justice. Until American society no longer abides IN DEED black men getting killed in the street for selling loosie cigarettes or pulling out their wallet, then justice demands the equivalent treatment when white hee-haws take over Federal property by armed force. THAT is justice. THAT is equitable.

    Because we don’t live in some abstract reality. We live in the world as it is, and until that world changes, the kinds of actions need to be responded to on the basis of what has been deemed standard operating procedure in THIS world.

  68. 68.

    gene108

    @SenyorDave:

    Huh?

    If Trump wins, the Civil Rights movement goes out the window. White people will be on top again, without question.

    All white people will feel are the bones of minorities, as they are crushed underfoot.

  70. 70.

    raven

    In a monthlong trial here, the defendants never denied that they had occupied and held the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge headquarters for nearly six weeks, demanding that the federal government surrender the 188,000-acre property to local control. But their lawyers argued that prosecutors did not prove that the group had engaged in an illegal conspiracy that kept federal workers — employees of the Fish and Wildlife Service and the Bureau of Land Management — from doing their jobs.

  71. 71.

    Spider-Dan

    Jury nullification. Simple as that.

    The law doesn’t apply if you are a white Sovereign Citizen.

  72. 72.

    Mnemosyne

    So, just to be clear, planning to squat at a federal facility and executing that plan doesn’t count as conspiracy because … reasons? WTF!

  74. 74.

    Aleta

    Weren’t there were questions to the judge in the last 2 days about whether they could split the guilty verdicts per defendant, and whether they could find guilt on some counts but not all? Seems like they were divided but came to believe they would acquit because they weren’t unanimous?

    Inconfuckceivable. Dangerous. Feeling sick.

  75. 75.

    JMG

    Next time, bring in the drones and incinerate ’em. White Americans are the enemy of human civilization, chapter one trillion.

  76. 76.

    WaterGirl

    I am as shocked as when OJ was acquitted. That’s not snark, I’m being serious. Un-fucking-believeable. So discouraging.

  77. 77.

    MD Rackham

    So the lesson for white “patriots” is that they can do as they please.

    And the lesson for the feds is that Waco is the example to follow.

  78. 78.

    Aleta

    @Major Major Major Major: I believe I read yesterday that they could not be convicted of the charge of having a gun at the federal offices unless it was determined that it was a conspiracy. If no conspiracy, then no gun conviction.

  80. 80.

    jl

    @gene108:

    ” White people will be on top again, without question. ”

    Unless you piss off Trump. Or you are too critical. Trump doesn’t like people he deems too critical. The white bigot authoritarians forget about, or lie to themselves, or don’t understand how the beatings (that are necessary to maintain morale) tend to spread under governments based on open and explicit authoritarian principles.

  82. 82.

    Mj_Oregon

    I am still shaking with anger and frustration after almost an hour. This will bring on open season for any federal OR state facility in the West, and elsewhere for that matter. The damage done to the refuge, including desecration of Native American artifacts and burial sites, was and is heartbreaking – indeed the wildlife refuge buildings are still not open to the public. I can NOT understand how these people have been found not guilty of all charges. The years ahead will be stained with blood of innocents because of this – and I don’t mean the “patriots.” Anarchy has just been legitimized in Oregon. FSM protect us.

  83. 83.

    Ella in New Mexico

    So I can just take over a Federal property waving guns and create chaos and destruction at the site with absolutely no punishment?

    ‘m really hoping that pending analysis of this case and how the jury came to it’s conclusions will make sense of what is otherwise completely and totally insane. This simply has to be an anomaly.

    Because this verdict just put a fucking bullseye target on the backs of every local NPS, BLM, USGF and USFS employee and their state-level counterparts.

    The FBI should have taken them out by force by the end of the first week they camped their assess on that refuge.

    Meanwhile, we’ve got the state of ND sicking dogs and police on Native Americans on behalf of a private corporation…

  84. 84.

    Aleta

    This puts BLM and FWS and federal forestry employees and researchers in even more danger than before. (not to mention the sacred artifacts, land, animals, insects, water, trees)

  85. 85.

    Patricia Kayden

    @JMG:

    White Americans are the enemy of human civilization, chapter one trillion.

    I’m not going to paint all White Americans with such a broad brush. But this is a trying situation and I understand everyone’s frustration. I feel exhausted now. What a day.

  86. 86.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Amaranthine RBG: You really are that dumb, aren’t you? If my office is taken over by a bunch of people toting guns and demanding snacks, I am prevented from doing my job due to their presence. Because no rational person is going to go there.

  87. 87.

    MJS

    @Major Major Major Major: True. Hopefully a lesson learned by those sworn to uphold the law. Specifically, when confronted with a white occupier of government land, don’t count on a jury of his peers to do the right thing.

  89. 89.

    Amaranthine RBG

    @Patricia Kayden: me too, but from what I have read, they- the Feds- didn’t put evidence in the record re key elements.

    Look I hold no brief for the occupiers and I think Feds would have justified to storm the building and kill them all if they resisted. That said, lots of people here (including a few sad sack dumbasses who shouldn’t practice piano, let alone the law) are assuming that 1) they know what the elements of the various charges were and 2) that the Feds satisfied those elements.

  90. 90.

    raven

    “Despite the acquittal, the Bundys were expected to stand trial in Nevada early next year on charges stemming from another high-profile standoff with federal agents. Authorities rounding up cattle at their father Cliven Bundy’s ranch in 2014 because of unpaid grazing fees released the animals as they faced armed protesters.”

  92. 92.

    Patricia Kayden

    @raven: So occupying a Federal building is not sufficient to keep Federal employees from doing their jobs in that building or on nearby property? Federal employees are supposed to risk their lives dealing with armed, angry people now? Ludicrous.

  100. 100.

    gene108

    @jl:

    As long as the right type of conservatives are in charge, they will be perfectly happy to have th gays, blacks, Latinos, Asians, white-race-traitors and other undesirables rounded up and sent away.

    One thing that stuck out about the early years of Bush, Jr. was how much conservatives did not give a damn about processes or the rule of law, as long as their guys were doing what they wanted.

    Conservatives have a very strong affinity towards fascist strong daddy types.

  101. 101.

    burnspbesq

    @Amaranthine RBG:

    You’re so fucking smart, describe in detail the elements of the offenses that were not proven beyond a reasonable doubt, and where the evidence fell short.

    Everybody is Tom Fucking Brady the morning after the Super Bowl.

  102. 102.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @srv:

    You know what, srv? (Yes, I know that I should not feed the troll.)

    You can fuck right the fuck off. (Yes, I know that I should not feed the troll.)

    And the fucking horse you fucking rode in on, too. (Yes, I know that I should not feed the troll.)

  103. 103.

    Aleta

    IIRC, Brian Cavelier (sp,) who’s pictured there, already pled guilty to some felony charges, and was sentenced to time already served. Can no longer possess guns or go onto some federal property like Malheur.

    Had they not been tried together, this outcome might be different.

  107. 107.

    Ella in New Mexico

    @srv:

    God works in mysterious ways.

    Yeah, well if I were a Refuge or Park Service or BLM employee, I’d pretty much start packing right now, for personal protection. No need for Waco, just self-defense. I hope God works his magic for them then and it’s just a flesh wound.

  108. 108.

    raven

    @burnspbesq: At trial, the case was seemingly open-and-shut. There was no dispute the group seized the refuge, established armed patrols and vetted those who visited.

    “Ladies and gentlemen, this case is not a whodunit,” Assistant U.S. Attorney Ethan Knight said in his closing argument, arguing that the group decided to take over a federal workplace that didn’t belong to them.

    On technical grounds, the defendants said they never discussed stopping individual workers from accessing their offices but merely wanted the land and the buildings. On emotional grounds, Ammon Bundy and other defendants argued that the takeover was an act of civil disobedience against an out-of-control federal government that has crippled the rural West.”

  109. 109.

    Patricia Kayden

    @Ella in New Mexico:

    Meanwhile, we’ve got the state of ND sicking dogs and police on Native Americans on behalf of a private corporation…

    This! A million times this!

    @raven: I sure don’t. You got me there.

  113. 113.

    agorabum

    Everyone is ripping the jury right now, but…(devil’s advocate), the DA had a role in picking that jury and we get to speak with them after deliberations, so I guess we’ll hear about their reasoning in the next day or so.

    I don’t get it, but we’ll get an explanation with some time

  117. 117.

    gene108

    Part of me wants these lands to be auctioned off to the highest bidder. Let the free market decide. The people buying up the land will be east coast financiers.

    Th she Sovereign Citizen types are big about sticking all kinds of conditions on who can buy land, should the Feds auction it off.

    They know, if it went to the highest bidder, they would lose.

    For all their anti-government rhetoric, they know they need to hide behind the skirts of big government interference for their plans to work.

  118. 118.

    Botsplainer

    Next time, roll on in and kill them all.

    Surely can do no worse – expect more stupid, drawling white trash bullshit in the future.

  119. 119.

    Coin operated

    These hicks are going to think they can act this way until we send Spectre gunships to do the negotiations. Martyrs be dammed…It’s the only thing these fuckwits understand.

  120. 120.

    D58826

    In the meantime armed storm troopers are clearing the demonstrators from the pipeline sight in North Dakota. But that is ok because they aren’t white.

    Trump is right – cancel the election and declare him dictator.

    American democracy and the rule of law died today.

  122. 122.

    Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (Formerly Mumphrey, et al.)

    So, off topic, but, Lord in heaven, is the American press awful. Chris Hayes and Rachel Maddow are about the best there are, but Hayes has spent the first 20 minutes of tonight’s show talking about how Mike Pence’s plane skidded off the runway. Nobody got hurt, and nobody yet knows how or why it happened, but they’ve wasted 20 minutes establishing that nobody got hurt and nobody yet knows how or why it happened. Hayes’s show is among the best, but today, with this 24 hour news cycle shit, even his show has to waste a third of its slot going over all this horseshit.

  124. 124.

    Amanda in the South Bay

    @burnspbesq: Since the trial took place in the Federal Court for the District of Oregon, there’s a lot of nasty folk outside the Willamette Valley (as its true everywhere outside large cities and college towns on the West Coast).

  127. 127.

    dr. bloor

    @raven: Yeah, and unfortunately for Bundy, et al, they’re going to find out that certain parties in Nevada are a whole lot more concerned about Nevada’s reputation in the public eye than are Oregonians.

  128. 128.

    Soylent Green

    I am protected by armed guards at the Portland federal building. It’s now open season on my thousands of colleagues out there on the land.

  130. 130.

    Mnemosyne

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    If my office is taken over by a bunch of people toting guns and demanding snacks, I am prevented from doing my job due to their presence. Because no rational person is going to go there.

    But, see, that just proves that you have an irrational fear of guns, so ARBG and his buddies need to wave their peni$es guns in public to prove that they just want you to look at them. And maybe touch them, if you want to. A little fondling might be nice … oh, yeah, like that …

  137. 137.

    dr. bloor

    @Ella in New Mexico: A number of BLM employees already have packed and left due to this stuff, including intimidation by “constitutional sheriffs.”

    Get the feds out of everything other than military and national security interests between Palm Springs and St. Louis. Let the yokels and the corporate interests settle matters as they may. Put on the Jiffy Pop.

  140. 140.

    Enhanced Voting Techinques

    @gene108: a) Trump is out for Trump.

    b) As the Mormons have pointed out, some white people are less white than others.

  142. 142.

    Mike J

    @WaterGirl: They didn’t have evidence to convict OJ. It was right that he was acquitted. Which isn’t to say he didn’t do it, but not guilty was the right decision in that case.

  145. 145.

    Botsplainer

    @goblue72:

    Great goddamn to know I agreed with you then AND agree with you now.

    This is what comes of kindness and forebearance for the thoughts, theories and concerns of “hard working white people”.

    Fuck ’em.

  147. 147.

    NYCMT

    @dr. bloor: Nah. That’s giving up! The laws are the laws, even if a bunch of chickenshit nullifiers are on the jury. Remember the battle hymn of the republic.

  148. 148.

    dr. bloor

    @agorabum: Substitute a bunch of black folks, Native Americans, or Latinos for the Bundy Crew, and try to envision a similar outcome.

    Anything the jury shits out over the coming days and weeks is classic post hoc rationalization.

  149. 149.

    Enhanced Voting Techinques

    @WaterGirl: Would you seriously vote to convict a defendant after the detective admitted to planting evidence? This is the LAPD we’re talking about too.

  150. 150.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Calouste: We can start with the fact the Supreme Court is an appellate court.

    If you want bench trials for everyone, then think about what happens when someone is standing in front of a Scalia-esque, W appointed judge. Wouldn’t that be fun?

  151. 151.

    Kryptik

    @Mike J:

    The investigation into OJ was a fuck-up that nullified a lot of evidence against him because of police malfeasance.

    This was just straight up bizarro world fuckupery that seems incomprehensible currently.

  152. 152.

    debbie

    @Mnemosyne:

    I missed you in an earlier thread, so I’m trying again:

    O/T, but would you ever think of doing a movie blog on something like this? Of the three movies mentioned in this piece, I’ve only seen The Lion in Winter, but I’ve reserved the other two at my library. There’s something in the American character that foments grifting. Post-election seems a good time for some introspection.

  153. 153.

    dr. bloor

    @Oldgold: Knight was, by media accounts anyway, a ultra-competent, no nonsense prosecutor. It’s more likely that there weren’t 12 people in the jury pool that weren’t aching for a chance to stick their finger in the Feds’ eye.

  155. 155.

    Amanda in the South Bay

    Of course /r/Portland is full of white contrarian douchebags enjoying their time in the sun.

  157. 157.

    NYCMT

    @Adam L Silverman: That fact pattern was as clear as clear can be – a casebook exemplar. That’s okay. We’ll get ’em next time. (I mean, it’s not okay, but the Republic is patient. And remorseless.)

  158. 158.

    Mnemosyne

    @debbie:

    I’d have to think about it — it’s not usually where my brain goes, so I’m not sure I could. I’ll keep it in mind, though.

  159. 159.

    Cacti

    The venue for the Nevada trial will be Clark County, where the odds of getting a box full of sympathetic wingnuts are considerably lower.

  160. 160.

    WarMunchkin

    What the fucking fuck shit? So apparently, in responding to an attack on Fort Sumter, the Northerners were in the wrong. Our bad.

  161. 161.

    singfoom

    I mean who hasn’t occupied a federal building while armed? Youthful hijinks obviously good natured fun, right? /s

  163. 163.

    Mnemosyne

    @Enhanced Voting Techinques:

    Are you talking about Furhman? IIRC, he didn’t say he planted evidence, he admitted that he didn’t have a proper warrant for the place where he found the bloody glove and had hopped a fence to get to it.

  164. 164.

    Soylent Green

    @RobertDSC-Mac Mini: No.

    But the site should have been blocked off until they ran out of food and surrendered. No media circus and no freedom of movement. The government erred on the side of caution.

  165. 165.

    WaterGirl

    @Mike J: @Enhanced Voting Techinques: True enough. But it was still a travesty of justice that he killed her and got off scott free.

    When I was on jury duty 3 years ago, the other jurors were a little cranky with me. I agreed with them that they guy on trial was certainly a bad guy and I thought he had done the crime. But I needed to work through it so I could be sure that I believed they had proven that rather than convicting him because we all thought he was guilty. I voted to convict, we all did, and then we got to learn all the stuff that wasn’t allowed into evidence.

    He was a very scary guy who had some very scary buddies, and the murder weapon had been hidden in the back yard around the corner and two houses down from me. They walked us all to our cars after the verdict and I was skittish for a week or 10 days. Then the tree fell on my house and pretty much pushed everything else out of my head. I guess that was the silver lining from the tree crashing.

    edit to add: I hadn’t believed the cop that testified, not for a moment. once I eliminated his lies because I couldn’t think of them as evidence, I needed to be sure that the whole thing hadn’t just been based on his lies, which sounded to me like retroactive bullshit to cover a bad warrant.

  167. 167.

    Cacti

    @Kryptik:

    The results of that trial won’t properly counteract the consequences of this one, though.

    Agree.

    This acquittal is probably going to get innocent people killed.

  169. 169.

    dr. bloor

    @Soylent Green: I feel really badly for you right now (stay safe!), but disagree. The DOJ is good at learning from their mistakes, and more to the point, gaming interests have too much skin in the game.

  170. 170.

    Corner Stone

    @Botsplainer:

    @goblue72:

    Great goddamn to know I agreed with you then AND agree with you now.

    God, you and that fucking clown canoodling together under an open IV blood drip shower in a bathtub.
    Get a fucking hold of yourself.

  171. 171.

    Woodrowfan

    my cousin just called from the Dayton area. Took at least an hour to vote, very slow process. And lots of angry-looking older white guys were prowling up and down the line outside the building trying to look intimidating. One young black women in line behind my cousin left and didn’t vote after people were rude to her. They didn’t do that to white voters…. .

  172. 172.

    Mike J

    @WaterGirl: If you ignore the bad evidence, as you should, there wasn’t enough evidence to convict. That’s the opposite of a travesty of justice. That was the proper outcome. There’s no other way to stop prosecutors.

  173. 173.

    Cacti

    @Woodrowfan:

    my cousin just called from the Dayton area. Took at least an hour to vote, very slow process. And lots of angry-looking older white guys were prowling up and down the line outside the building trying to look intimidating. One young black women in line behind my cousin left and didn’t vote after people were rude to her. They didn’t do that to white voters…. .

    Photos need to be taken and the DOJ should be contacted any time and anywhere this is an issue.

  174. 174.

    Corner Stone

    @singfoom:

    I mean who hasn’t occupied a federal building while armed? Youthful hijinks obviously good natured fun, right?

    Not a federal building but once a few years ago I grabbed Gov Rick Perry by his My Little Pony pajama collars and threw him bodily out of the TX Gov House.
    I was feeling a mite peckish though, I must admit.

  175. 175.

    Mary G

    @Calouste: You are probably a troll and I should just go on ignoring you, but this is the stupidest idea I’ve heard in a long time. The American jury system is the worst one in the world, except for all of the other systems.

    I said this was nullification in the last thread and that it is scary, and it is, but if some over-zealous wingnut prosecutor in the future (when we’re all living under the thumb of Ted Cruz) takes a progressive to trial, we still have nullification to fall back on.

  177. 177.

    WaterGirl

    @Mike J: Yes, you have to ignore the bad evidence. I agree that there’s no other way to stop prosecutors from doing that stuff. And that may have been the proper verdict from the jury if the case and trial were mishandled.

    But I still think it’s a travesty of justice when a murderer goes free when it’s pretty damn clear that he did it.

  179. 179.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Patricia Kayden:

    Yeah, I generally do, but for some reason this time he just royally pissed me off and I couldn’t didn’t control myself. Which, of course, is his entire raison d’être, I know that.

  181. 181.

    WaterGirl

    I am not altogether sure that my mom did the right thing when she raised her daughters to believe that the world should be fair.

  182. 182.

    tsquared2001

    I have to see Eric Garner get choked to death. I have to see Tamir Rice get shot down in less than 5 seconds. I have to see John Crawford get shot at a fucking Walmart. The lack of justice in ALL of those cases is just something I have to fucking swallow.

    And now, I have to see a bunch of yahoos get off because other fucking yahoos want to enshrine the primitive notion that white makes right.

    I am done.

  184. 184.

    Botsplainer

    @Cacti:

    Better yet, call local armed white people to confront the old white intimidators.

    It’s Ohio. I wouldn’t count on law enforcement to help, but a shaming crew of angry white liberals may well do the trick.

  186. 186.

    TS

    @Baud: The lone holdout was removed from the jury for “bias”

    Edit: I’m probably the last of many to mention this

  187. 187.

    WaterGirl

    @Omnes Omnibus: I am wondering whether you are speaking generally or if you are saying that about the OJ case or this case with the so-called sovereign citizens.

  188. 188.

    hovercraft

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (Formerly Mumphrey, et al.):
    I know, and that was after Tweety spent two segments talking about “Clinton Inc.” he ranted about the the Clintons always skating to the edge, he raved about the Motel 6, Lincoln bedroom scandal. lining them up and renting it out by the hour, then he concluded that people don’t change just because you put them in the White House. If you want that, then vote for her, that’s who those people are. Then he ended his show with a lament about Trump not just sticking to the issues and instead going off on all these tangents, he added that it’s not that he wants Trump to win, he just wants the election decided on the issues, not this crap.

  190. 190.

    Botsplainer

    @Corner Stone:

    You forgot to mention “gargling with the blood of well-meaning, honest white patriots who only want the best and deserve to be treated with tolerance, compassion, and respect for their alternative views”.

    This is what people get for being nice to them. ?

  192. 192.

    NickM

    Reading the new Hilter biography by Volker Ullrich, one of the contributors to the rise of fascism was the unwillingness of authorities to enforce the law against the right wing. The Beer Hall Putsch resulted in the murder of a number of police officers in an attempt to overthrow the state. The right wing judge hearing the case helped to nullify the charges. He allowed Hitler to cross examine the prosecution. He dispatched the lightest possible sentence. And prison authorities made sure the Nazis were well housed and well fed, even allowing them to hold dances every weekend. They supplied Hitler with the materials to complete the first volume of Mein Kampf, and then released him and his cohorts after a year. In 1932, a SA gang kicked a communist official to death. They became a Nazi cause celebe, had their sentences reduced from death to imprisionment, and were out within a year.

  195. 195.

    hovercraft

    @raven:
    Tweety talks about that crap, Chris and Rachel will report the days highlights and move on, they don’t dwell, so that wouldn’t have been an issue.

  196. 196.

    WaterGirl

    I keep refreshing this thread, hoping for a right-arrow that will bring a thread to distract me from the rage and sorrow that this verdict brings.

  198. 198.

    RK

    How can you know whether a verdict was proper or not if you haven’t sat through the entire trial. I watched the entire Trayvon Martin case and I would’ve been shocked if Zimmerman hadn’t been found not guilty.

  200. 200.

    Botsplainer

    @NickM:

    Yep. This went off the rails when an Idaho jury handed money to Randall Weaver’s dumb ass for getting his wife and child killed.

  203. 203.

    Peale

    @hovercraft: I will say this every night. I assume Tweety will change his show to cover issues. He’s only had 25 years to do that. But he hasn’t seemed all that concerned about it until now.

  204. 204.

    jenn

    I am so filled with rage at this, I cannot find words. I have typed and deleted over and over and over.

    I was incredibly pissed off that the Feds just let those armed fuckers stay there, when ANY OTHER DEMOGRAPHIC would have been hauled out of there by force. I reconciled myself to it by the fact that justice would be done in the courts. But now there’s no justice, just mockery. More – I have friends who work in the land management agencies – an open season has just been declared against them, because that fucking jury has decided that armed dipshits can act against them with impunity. I feel not unlike what I felt when I heard that Zimmerman’s attorney argued that Trayvon was armed with the damn sidewalk, and the jury evidently went along with that, and acquitted. If all it takes for a black kid to be considered armed and dangerous is to be standing on a sidewalk…. What the everloving fuck. In both the case at hand, and how that impacts future cases.

  205. 205.

    Oldgold

    @dr. bloor:

    The results would seem to contradict that assessment. No way nullifiers should be able to slip through a competent voir dire in a case such as this.

    Now, sometimes in Federal Court the presiding Judge will f-up beyond all recognition the void dire. I wonder if that happened here.

  206. 206.

    Mnemosyne

    @WaterGirl:

    I think I mentioned in the other thread that there were a lot of LAPD screw-ups, stupid stuff that let the defense say that the evidence was potentially contaminated (like the ME leaving blood evidence in his car for hours). So there were a lot of own goals by the police and prosecutors that created reasonable doubt for a jury that was already skeptical.

  209. 209.

    Corner Stone

    @Botsplainer: I don’t give a shit about being nice to them, listening to their views or treating them with any modicum of respect. I do, however, have a problem with government deciding they are guilty and executing them out of hand as said guilt is clearly manifest.
    I’m against government sanctioned murder of our citizens when it happens to black folk, men and women of color and I am against it when some propose these yokels also deserve death by acclamation of an outraged few. The system did its thing. Hate on the outcome all you want. Push for reform and change where we can.

  210. 210.

    Botsplainer

    @Oldgold:

    Sometimes judges will bend over backwards to accommodate asshole Wingnut lawyers and pro se litigants from the aspect of appearing to be fair AND to get the morons to shut the fuck up.

    I’m thinking this likely here.

  211. 211.

    Amaranthine RBG

    @RK:
    Shhhhj…shhhhh…. we for lots of folks gettin their righteous indignation on!

    We don’t need no stinkin juries— the internets know who is guilty!

  213. 213.

    Botsplainer

    @Corner Stone:

    My take has always been the same – nobody has the right to an armed standoff. Due process is about coming in peacefully. Once the standoff starts, consequences are on you.

  215. 215.

    The Sheriff's A Ni-

    @Corner Stone: Well, I’m certain once the bodies start falling, we can sort this all out with a sternly worded letter or two.

    I’m really starting to wonder if Obama’s no drama policy is indirectly setting us up for some serious future bloodshed.

  218. 218.

    WaterGirl

    @jenn: I am completely with you on everything you said. I don’t even know what to do with my rage and sorrow.

    @dr. bloor: Thanks for that. just watching the kitty tummies go up and down slowed my breathing and tears started rolling down my face. Anger and rage aren’t go-to emotion for me, so I don’t know what to do with them. When the tears started as I watched the kitties, I was reminded that that’s what happens when I’m so enraged that I don’t know what to do with myself.

    I left the kitty tab open, heading back there now.

  220. 220.

    Another Scott

    @Woodrowfan: Horrible. I hope people are filming the intimidation efforts so that there will be some consequences. (Unfortunately, it may be too late in this case.)

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  221. 221.

    NickM

    This isn’t exactly a he said she said mystery about what happen d one night. The defendants broadcast and tweeted evidence of their crime, which was not exactly subtle. It’s not difficult to have a firm grasp on the evidence without having been there.

  222. 222.

    tsquared2001

    @WaterGirl: I’m done with giving the benefit of the doubt to white people. Moms was white and her awakening was Emmett Till. I thought my own awakening was Rodney King but in the years that ensued, I had forgotten how I felt after that verdict.
    No more. Fuck honkie

  223. 223.

    hovercraft

    @Peale:
    He never talks about issues when he is discussing Hillary and Bill, but since he really wants Trump to do well because he agrees with him, he hates it when Trump forces people to focus on the fact that he’s a sexist, racist, xenophobe. Tweety would like Trump to keep that side of him hidden and just focus on his “issues”.

  229. 229.

    sigaba

    Okay NOW we can start making the Weimar comparisons. I was waiting for us to check the “Courts let right-wing terrorists walk” box, now here we are.

  231. 231.

    The Sheriff's A Ni-

    @Corner Stone: I’d rather not go back to Ruby Ridge / Waco, but the current alternative isn’t quite working either. Rural America is turning into an armed insurrectionist front. How do you stop that?

  232. 232.

    celticdragonchick

    @Botsplainer:

    No. The shoot order was blatantly unconstitutional. Randy Weaver is an asshole. I loathe any and everything he believes. He and his wife and kid still did not deserve what happened, and there was never any fucking reason to have US marshals all over the place over a damned missed court date that stemmed from an marginally illegal sawed off shotgun that was found to be an entrapment problem (IE a federal plant cajoled Weaver into sawing off a shotgun 1/8 of an inch shy of legal)

    BTW, the freewheeling bullshit that the FBI and ATF did in those days is what fed the militia movement.

  236. 236.

    Eric U.

    @Soylent Green: the perimeter should have been much smaller around the building. People leaving should not have been allowed back. Nobody should have been allowed to enter. It was far too lax, and they were allowed to terrorize the locals for far too long. Same with the Bundy ranch standoff. I understand the “no martyrs” policy, but this was sloppy

  238. 238.

    raven

    @debbie: I was watching Eastwood in the Unforgiven today and, when the blind cowboy said “he didn’t deserve it” Munny said “We all deserve it”.

  240. 240.

    Corner Stone

    @Botsplainer: I’ve got a lot of very “white people say” shit to say about how easy it is for us to be all erect at the thought of govt sanctioned violence against those who disrupt our sense of equanimity.

  243. 243.

    Wapiti

    @celticdragonchick:

    there was never any fucking reason to have US marshals all over the place over a damned missed court date that stemmed from an marginally illegal sawed off shotgun that was found to be an entrapment problem (IE a federal plant cajoled Weaver into sawing off a shotgun 1/8 of an inch shy of legal)

    I was a bit surprised that the Weaver entrapment case wasn’t used more in the various Muslim terrorists cases that seemed to be manufactured by the FBI. Well, not really surprised, since the defendants were black or Arab, so somehow entrapment isn’t the same.

  245. 245.

    WaterGirl

    @tsquared2001: I was shocked and upset about Rodney King but that was a long time ago and over the years the police seemed to be less the bad guy and more the good guy. I suspect I just didn’t see what was happening.

    But after Trayvon Martin, I just can’t un-see it. It enrages me and breaks my heart at the same time. I don’t blame you for not trusting us. But some of us have our eyes open and we are with you. I just don’t know how to change our screwed up system.

  246. 246.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @NYCMT:

    The laws are the laws

    The Law is the true embodiment
    Of everything that’s excellent;
    It has no kind of fault or flaw,
    And I, my Lords, embody the Law.

  249. 249.

    piratedan

    its just incredibly frustrating that we have 12 people, who somehow believe that having armed people on your worksite, occupying your place of employment, 24/7 is somehow legitimate. I’d love to hear how willing they would be to have strangers sitting in their place of residence or workplace for six weeks and have them think nothing of it. To have them trash the place is simply a bonus.

  250. 250.

    tsquared2001

    @raven: To be honest, it has been the last 8 years. But it USED to be that the powers that be would be somewhat apologetic over their white supremacy ethos and I took comfort in that. The arc of history and all that ying yang.
    Now – it right the fuck in my face with NO apology.
    Like you do with LBJ, I do with honkie.

  252. 252.

    Soylent Green

    @The Sheriff’s A Ni-: The president’s degree of poise has nothing to do with this. The government’s response at the Malheur refuge was designed to avoid any and all bloodshed at the site, and it succeeded. The big mistake was letting the occupiers come and go, letting the media in, letting them resupply, letting the militias reinforce them, letting them get online, etc., which turned them into rural folk heroes and gave the jury the idea that they had done nothing wrong.

    The next time, the FBI better have a goddamned siege strategy in place. That’s hard to do when the next occupation will also be in the middle of nowhere, where it will take law enforcement weeks to mobilize.

    My best friend, an employee of the Malheur National Forest, said she is somewhat afraid to go to work.

  253. 253.

    TriassicSands

    @PaulWartenberg2016:

    It is impossible to overstate just how stupid, ignorant, or evil a huge slice of the American population is. How could Trump possibly be even remotely competitive in a presidential race? How could Bundy, et al. get off? The answer comes down to the ever worsening condition of the American people.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if there were at least several jurors who favored conviction, but were held hostage — “Look either vote for acquittal or you won’t be home in time to watch TV tonight.” “Just think of all the social media you’re missing out on being stuck in here. Vote not guilty and you can go home.”

    That theory would make the jurors who favored conviction extraordinarily shallow and worthless as jurors. But it wouldn’t surprise me at all.

  256. 256.

    Patricia Kayden

    @RK: Because it’s perfectly fine with you for a White man to gun down an unarmed Black kid, right? You seem to be on the wrong blog. Stormfront would be more of your thing.

  259. 259.

    Ella in New Mexico

    @dr. bloor: I’ve got kids who do this work…this verdict scares me. I’ve advised them accordingly and reassured them that we’ll mortgage the house if we need to to defend them, should something happen.

  260. 260.

    WaterGirl

    @debbie:

    Don’t waste your energy.

    Yeah, but we can’t just do nothing. What’s happening is so wrong and so against what this country stands for that it would be wrong to just say “oh well, they’ll get theirs”.

  262. 262.

    hovercraft

    @Major Major Major Major:
    I’m not sure when the Ads stopped running, but they announced a few weeks ago that they were pulling out, at the time the race was not close, Rubio was up I believe double digits. But the race has gotten tighter recently, and the DSCC has been heavily criticized for pulling out. I read somewhere that Obama and Hillary wanted them to go back in, her because if they can knock him off, she not only gets the senator, she could also set his presidential aspirations.

  264. 264.

    LurkerExtraordinaire

    Called it.

    Shit is gonna get ugly before it gets better. Wouldn’t surprise me at all if this country breaks up in my lifetime.

  265. 265.

    jl

    @gene108:

    Surely, ‘white-race-traitors’ will be watched. But I guarantee you, some white right thinking right voting authoritarian little people will get on a list if they get in the way of power, money or whim in any Trumpist authoritarian administration, whether run by Trump, or Cruz, or whoever. As long as not too many, they will just be very surprised and chagrined collateral damage, and they will be surprised that their white right thinking right voting brethren don’t care. As long as critical mass of white bigots and authoritarians can tell themselves it can’t happen to them, will be no fuss.

    Of course, if anything one tenth as bad happened to a white bigot authoritarian under the tyrannical fascist boot heel of an Obama or HRC, or any Democrat, then all hell would break loose in the media and House GOP caucus.

  267. 267.

    hovercraft

    @Baud:
    Are you suggesting she go and murder people like Bill and Janet Reno did at Waco for no reason at all?

  268. 268.

    sigaba

    @Baud:

    Hillary is going to need some leeway in dealing with these folks.

    We either win according to the rules or we lose.

  269. 269.

    Patricia Kayden

    @tsquared2001: By acknowledging that White privilege exists without blaming all White people for its existence. John Cole is White. He probably has benefited from White privilege but why should I hate him or blame him for that?

  270. 270.

    celticdragonchick

    @Wapiti:

    I think they tend to build those cases from contacts that already expressed interest in some sort of terror activity on the internet or some such. They had no proof of any such interest on Weaver’s part that he was offering to go illegally modifying weapons.

    In any event, they really only wanted to hold that over him as a threat and recruit him to go spy on Aryan Nation.

    He refused, and he didn’t show up for court regarding the shotgun charge (and the court dates were apparently screwed up so even if he had shown up, he still might have been charged with refusing to show since he had been given the wrong date)

    We know what happened after that.

    Now I guess the feds cover their bases a bit better on those things. You can never tell with juries, though.

  273. 273.

    ChrisGrrr

    @Mary G: Oooh, well said.

    I am so relieved to find so many commenters I respect here to be as confused or angry as I am…

  276. 276.

    debbie

    @WaterGirl:

    Well, nullification is not as rare as it used to be. Maybe this increase in incidents points to weaknesses in the system. How would you change it? I might have ideas, but I’m still smarting over the smackdown from my plans to change the UN. ;)

  278. 278.

    Patricia Kayden

    @Baud: This is definitely something President Hillary Clinton will have to deal with as the “Patriots” have now been emboldened.

  279. 279.

    Soylent Green

    @TriassicSands: I spent two days observing at the trial. The defense’s incompetence and stalling tactics and irrelevant motions and verbosity and parade of clueless witnesses added several tiresome weeks to its length. After six weeks, the jury wanted to get it over with, so took the easy way out.

  280. 280.

    hovercraft

    @Major Major Major Major:
    That’s probably why they are going back in, when they announced they were leaving no one cared because it looked like a lost cause. As it tightened every one started to notice that they had pulled out, and started criticizing them

  282. 282.

    The Pale Scot

    @dr. bloor:

    Nathan Bedford Forrest and Bobby Lee should have been hanged,

    Absolutely, in that era any other country all of the combatants would have been hung. At least the officer class should have been hung, and the NCOs watched very closely

  283. 283.

    hovercraft

    @Baud:
    I was being facetious, of course no matter how she handles something like this will be wrong. Too harsh, too lenient, to wishy washy, sending mixed messages.

    ETA: the reaction to Waco was a perfect example of Clinton rules. Plus he was responsible for Ruby Ridge. Don’t quibble about dates.

  285. 285.

    scav

    The more I witness the values of a good number of mercans, the less comfortable I am here. They talk a good talk about rule of law, etc etc, but are worthless at upholding it. This is just more tantrum throwing ‘you’re not the boss of me’ behavior.

  287. 287.

    Mnemosyne

    @piratedan:

    its just incredibly frustrating that we have 12 people, who somehow believe that having armed people on your worksite, occupying your place of employment, 24/7 is somehow legitimate.

    If why didn’t the federal employees just keep going to work while armed protesters were there? isn’t the absolute stupidest thing I’ve heard today, it comes very, very close. One wonders what kind of brain damage someone has suffered to be confused about that point.

  288. 288.

    WaterGirl

    @hovercraft: It’s probably uncivilized, but I wanted to write “fuck Chuck Schemer”.

    Leaving Schemer there because the autocorrect was just too perfect.

  289. 289.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @LAO: That’s about the best I could do too. I can’t even.

    Shows what we know. And of course I believe it’s clearly nullification in operation. Good thing I’d tapered off these last few weeks, or I’d be in big trouble withdrawal-wise.

  290. 290.

    RK

    @Patricia Kayden:

    Because it’s perfectly fine with you for a White man to gun down an unarmed Black kid, right?

    No, because the evidence in relation to the relevant Florida law demanded the verdict he was given. You may want to acquaint yourself with the importance of public trial by jury.

  292. 292.

    Tilda Swinton's Bald Cap

    A commenter posted this at LGM:

    It’s a real problem in our federal system that the trials have to be in the location of the crime and draw their juries from there. This was a real issue for federal attempts to fight the Klan during Reconstruction, even when the U.S. Attorneys took it to them local juries wouldn’t convict.

  293. 293.

    hueyplong

    My first impulse is to say no about Lee, but Forrest definitely should have been hanged. He was a serious war criminal.

    People here talk about whether they can be friends with Trump supporters. I can’t maintain even a casual acquaintance with people who admire Nathan Bedford Forrest.

  294. 294.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @Patricia Kayden: Pretty much as clear an illustration of white privilege as we’re going to see this week. And so many people overlook the indigenous as an embattled minority.

  296. 296.

    Eric U.

    @hovercraft: Waco was another one of the presents that GHWBush left Clinton, Somalia being the best, of course. They probably shouldn’t have convinced themselves to go in, just waited it out. And Ruby Ridge was a travesty of the first order, but that was all on the Bush admin.

    I think this verdict says that the feds need to be a lot more proactive about containing the standoffs. Cutting internet and power and supplies would be a good start. I don’t want people to die, but I don’t want them to do this sort of thing either. And we need to protect BLM workers against the harassment they are getting from local governments too. That is our land, I’m not ceding it to radicals without a fight.

  298. 298.

    The Pale Scot

    @JMG:

    and incinerate ’em

    Use VX gas, or just bombard the strong point with radiation ( x-rays ) like those other sovereigns tried to do.

  299. 299.

    Miss Bianca

    @NickM: Oh, yeah, and it just gets “better” after that. Good old Hindenburg, Papen, et al. – “oh, we can control an obvious fascist nutjob and his private army! Don’t worry, he’ll do OUR bidding!”

    I’m just so sickened by this verdict, I can’t even snark properly tonight.

  302. 302.

    Vhh

    @Soylent Green: The Feds should have changed the venue to a bluer location. I wonder if the Feds can try again with a civil rights charge and a civil suit for property damages.

  303. 303.

    dr. bloor

    @hueyplong: For me, the argument for Lee isn’t that he was as sociopathic as Forrest–no one could have been–but that he was the West Point Golden Boy who knew exactly what he was doing when he chose Gray over Blue. No one could have been more surprised that he died of old age than he was.

  304. 304.

    JanieM

    Question for lawyers, or, well, anyone who knows the answer: does a jury have to say out loud that nullification is what they’re doing? My impression (probably formed by watching movies; I’ve never been on a jury) is that they don’t have to give a rationale for a verdict.

    ??

  308. 308.

    WaterGirl

    @Baud: Can a judge overturn a jury decision because it was based on nullification? I’ve seen that happen on TV more than once, wondering if that’s really a thing or if it’s just TV.

  309. 309.

    Oldgold

    In a matter such as this, I would have tried them one at a time for trespass and destruction of government property.And, sh*t-canned the conspiracy theory. K.I.S.S.

  310. 310.

    Pinksnapdragon

    @Amaranthine RBG: As a retired federal employee I can only say: Are you fucking crazy? Under what circumstance would any employer send an employee into a facility that has been taken over by armed invaders?

  312. 312.

    raven

    @JanieM: I was on a jury that went against the instructions of the judge. We didn’t have to say anything but not guilty but I knew the prosecutor and talked to him later. He asked how we could do it and I asked how the fuck he could put a particular witness on the stand?

  313. 313.

    Soylent Green

    @Vhh: There’s no bluer venue than Portland. But the jury was selected from all over the state and not from here. As has been said, if you took Seattle and Portland out of Washington and Oregon, both states would be Idaho.

  317. 317.

    Mnemosyne

    @RK:

    It’s true, under Florida law you can pretty much kill anyone you want to, claim after the fact that you felt “threatened,” and walk away scott free. The Martin case wasn’t even one of the more egregious ones — this man went to his ex-wife’s house with a gun, sent her fleeing, and killed her boyfriend. He was acquitted, because the judge agreed that under the law, he was justified in killing someone he felt threatened by even though he was the one who had gone to the house with a gun.

    The fact that you seem to be A-OK with the fact that Florida has legalized cold-blooded murder as long as the killer can convince a judge that he was scared is a whole different problem.

  320. 320.

    TS

    @Soylent Green:

    so took the easy way out

    They took the white way out – just as easy if they had all said guilty. Only person who wanted guilty was taken off the jury..

  321. 321.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @agorabum:

    the DA had a role in picking that jury

    I know I’m late to the party here, but this is another time when I need to explain that “picking a jury” is a misleading phrase. The attorneys for the government and defense – or plaintiff and defendant in civil cases – in fact “un-pick” a jury. There’s a pool of potential jurors and out of that group, individuals get started in chairs as potential jurors randomly and respond to questions from counsel for each party. Both sides have a limited number of what are called peremptory challenges to remove potential jurors “just because,” and no reason need be given. There are also challenges for cause, when counsel ask that a potential juror be stricken because a response indicates bias, but challenges for cause are difficult to make successfully.

    That’s a giant oversimplification, but the bottom line is you don’t “pick a jury” but rather try to eliminate the potentially troublesome prospects to the extent you can. Also, too, not every court will permit counsel/the media to query jurors post trial – – it’s not legally required that a judge allow it, and either way a juror is not required to explain anything to anyone. Though they are free to do so if they wish.

  323. 323.

    WaterGirl

    @raven: Interesting!

    My take is that nullification is a good thing when the jury gets it right and a really bad thing when they don’t. Gets it right = justice is served. Yes, I realize that is in the eye of the beholder.

  324. 324.

    CarolDuhart2

    @dr. bloor: My take is that the decision was a reward for him not taking his soldiers into a guerilla war. That leaving Lee alone would help his men go home and obey the law. It’s hard to second-guess Grant’s decision. But without Lee’s leadership, any attempt to revive the rebellion was moot. Yes, no win by conventional means, but there could have been a slow boil.

  325. 325.

    WaterGirl

    @LAO: @Omnes Omnibus: hahaha

    Actually, I thought that was interesting. You can reverse a conviction but not an acquittal. Seems like there is a certain wisdom to that.

    edit: *but only if you trust the judge.

    edit: silly me, until Bush v. Gore in 2000, I thought judges were actually non-partisan. Learning that lesson was a kick in the gut.

  326. 326.

    Mnemosyne

    @Pinksnapdragon:

    Under what circumstance would any employer send an employee into a facility that has been taken over by armed invaders?

    But you see, in ARBG’s world, people who walk around carrying guns never actually use them, so having armed strangers in your office is perfectly safe. No need to be alarmed at all. Until, of course, they decide to shoot you, but then the argument magically switches to saying that you should have known that person was one of the Bad Ones before you showed up for work that day, but there’s still no reason to think that armed people standing around your workplace are any danger to you. Until they are, and then you should have known that ahead of time.

    It’s some catch, that catch-22.

  327. 327.

    The Pale Scot

    @gene108:

    The people buying up the land will be east coast financiers.

    More likely the Saud family or the Chinese, they are buying up food production all over the world

  328. 328.

    hueyplong

    @ WaterGirl

    It’s just TV.

    Ammon has another trial coming. The prosecutors will go to school on what happened. The judge didn’t release him after the verdict because of the next trial (presumably his flight risk), causing his defense lawyer to melt down.

    These guys were exposed and held up to ridicule. Today is a temporary setback and the cost of having an altogether great concept of a jury trial system. The right things will happen in the end.

    There are a few people in Mississippi and Alabama who can tell you about some instances of jury nullification causing a lot more harm than giving temporary succor to a bunch of clowns (who didn’t actually kill anyone in OR).

    We’re good. Go vote if you haven’t already.

  329. 329.

    Ruckus

    @WaterGirl:
    The world should be fair. Teaching you that is not wrong. Now if she tried to teach you that the world is fair that’s a different issue altogether.

  330. 330.

    Peale

    @Eric U.: yep. It’s amazing to me how many people assume that Ruby Ridge happened under Clinton. It didn’t. Waco started three weeks before Janet Reno took over Justice. Although she made bad descisions that are on that administration. fast and furious started in 2006.

  333. 333.

    raven

    @WaterGirl: I had another one here where they used “similar transaction” in a really nasty rape. The dude had beaten and raped several women and they testified. He had a 15 year gap in his record and some people on the jury thought he had reformed. I said” you people are nuts, he was in jail”. After it was over I learned that he was indeed. My lawyer friends don’t like “similar transaction” but I don’t think we would have convicted him with out it. He got life plus 120 and didn’t bat a funky eye, Three hots and a cot I guess.

  336. 336.

    WaterGirl

    @Ruckus: Good point, and interesting question. She instilled an expectation that the world should be and would be fair.

    Hey, I was fast skimming 2 days of threads because I was away from BJ on Tuesday and Wednesday. What’s this about you packing up and moving?

  337. 337.

    hueyplong

    @WaterGirl: Good job. Anti-Trump vote banked. Think about how irritated Ammon is going to be, watching Hillary get inaugurated from a jail cell or else huddled around other paranoid types in a “compound” in the uninhabitable part of a western state.

  339. 339.

    JR in WV

    @Calouste:

    OK, name three.

    And remember about judges. we have former Chief Justice of the State of Alabama, Roy Moore, dismissed from his position for installing a monument to the Ten Commandments, and refusing to allow Alabama officials from marrying same-sex couples. Roy was elected to the Alabama Supreme Court repeatedly.

    You want your case heard by a guy like that? Puh-lease ~ !!!

  340. 340.

    WaterGirl

    @raven: I’ve never heard it called that, but I think that similar transactions are very relevant. How can you ask juries to arrive at a reasonable verdict if you hid half the information?

    I bet you are interesting to be on a jury with. You probably don’t take any crap and have a practical perspective.

  345. 345.

    RK

    @Mnemosyne:

    The fact that you seem to be A-OK with the fact that Florida has legalized cold-blooded murder as long as the killer can convince a judge that he was scared

    Lol You may want to brush up on your reading comprehension. Becoming acquainted with the facts of the case and the law may be a good idea as well.

  349. 349.

    redshirt

    @Mike J: Camp is a shack on stilts by the lake deep, deep in the woods. Everyone in Canada, for example, has a camp or knows someone who has a camp and they can hang out at.

  350. 350.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @RK: Given that if you’re female and blah and make the same assertions ZImmerman did, but with a lot more credibility, and you’re sent to jail, it seems you’re a fucktard.

  351. 351.

    WaterGirl

    @hueyplong: Funny that you should say anti-Trump vote. That’s what i would have predicted 3 months ago, voting against Trump while holding my nose. I’m still not her biggest fan, but I think Hillary is better than I have given her credit for in the past. I think she could be a good president, at least on domestic policy. Still concerned about her foreign policy. But she doesn’t grate on me like she did before and I no longer actively dislike her. Progress!

    I wonder how many people were influenced by the incessant over-the-top attacks on Clinton.

  353. 353.

    sigaba

    @dr. bloor: Lee is a good example of the old saying that it’s better to be a banker who goes bankrupt in a conventional way, than a banker who gets rich in an unconventional way.

  354. 354.

    Ruckus

    @tsquared2001:
    Can’t say I agree with your conclusion. But then again I can’t disagree with it either. Way, way too many white people are fucking assholes, at the very least. Many of them are far worse. And I have no idea what to do about that. I thought it was getting better quite a few yrs ago. One more thing in the “Boy was I fucking wrong column.”

  356. 356.

    CarolDuhart2

    @The Pale Scot: And if anything, they will be even less inclined to give in to the Bundys of the world, not living here or sharing anything else with them. The rural way of life they love so much only exists because the Feds have bought up the property and prevented development, and the tourist income allows people to actually remain in those places on a permanent basis. Think Vail in terms of privatization. Yes, the trees are there, but so are condos and chalets far too expensive for the locals to live in. The Bundys could intimidate Federal workers who work for modest pay. They could inltimidate Native Americans who just want to enjoy native lands. No dice against land buyers who could hire a few Xe mercenaries and far outbid Bundys who would be foreclosed on in a New York minute.

  357. 357.

    Mnemosyne

    @RK:

    Becoming acquainted with the facts of the case and the law may be a good idea as well.

    I am familiar with both. When they passed “stand your ground,” Florida legalized murder, because they removed the very important language we have here in California that says you cannot claim justifiable homicide if you were the one to start the fight. In Florida, it doesn’t matter who started the fight and whoever survives can successfully claim immunity, which is why the adult who followed a teenage boy in his car and then got out of it to confront him was able to successfully claim that he was the real victim.

    As I said, you seem to be okay with that. I am not.

  359. 359.

    CarolDuhart2

    @WaterGirl: I still think she is more thoughtful than not when it comes to Foreign Policy. The same cautiousness will serve her well at times. In any event, I don’t expect a fiasco like G-Dub’s war in Iraq.

  361. 361.

    hueyplong

    @WaterGirl: I only said “anti-Trump” because I was speaking to your state of upset with today’s RWNJ news out of Oregon. Had originally typed “Clinton vote” but changed it.

    I’m definitely pro-Clinton as well as extremely anti-Trump.

  363. 363.

    Mnemosyne

    @Major Major Major Major:

    It’s written into the self-defense clause of the law now. All someone has to claim in Florida is that they felt their life was threatened by the person they killed, and the jury instructions are that they should be acquitted.

    (Edited above for clarity)

    What Zimmermann did was waive having a Stand Your Ground immunity hearing, which is a different thing.

  366. 366.

    Botsplainer

    @redshirt:

    Let’s see them roll their fatty scooters around the house to different firing positions when they can’t recharge because the electricity is out…

  368. 368.

    WaterGirl

    @CarolDuhart2: We’ll have to agree to disagree on your first two sentences. I don’t trust Hillary’s foreign policy instincts the way I do Obama’s. I don’t think you are right, but I hope you are. I would be glad to be proven wrong on this. Time will tell.

  370. 370.

    Ruckus

    @WaterGirl:
    Not packing up and moving, I’ve got stuff that I’d like to sell, tools that I’ll never used again, that type of thing. Like an iMac 21 1/2 in, works great, runs the latest OS but I bought a 27 in so I can zoom everything and don’t need glasses to see it. Stuff like that. Of course when I actually retire I’ll have to move, I won’t be able to afford to live where I do on SS alone and the things that I had thought I’d do when I retired to make some side money, doesn’t look like I’ll be physically able to accomplish because of health issues. So I’ve got that going for me.

  375. 375.

    RK

    @Mnemosyne: Zimmerman had a standard self-defense defense; if you knew the case you’d know that. And if you knew the facts you’d know he met that standard. Which is to say nothing of the prosecution’s case turning out to be one for the defense.

  376. 376.

    WaterGirl

    @Ruckus: Ah, okay. Good for you! I don’t think you can go wrong doing that. I thought I had missed something big.

    I went through everything I had after the tree crashed on the house 3 years ago and got rid of a lot of stuff. Then I went through everything again a year or 18 months ago, got rid of some more nice stuff that I didn’t need. It felt pretty good. I probably need to do it again at some point.

  377. 377.

    frosty fred

    @dr. bloor: I have no more use for Marse Robert than the next one, but I’m five years older than he was when he died, so it doesn’t look like old age from here.

  378. 378.

    burnspbesq

    @RK:

    It is possible to concede that a jury correctly applied a fucked-up law. Are you actually contending that Florida’s stand-your-ground law is anything but deeply fucked up? If so, please explain the basis for that contention.

  379. 379.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @RK: Stop trying to derail the thread. You are wrong on the facts and the law. The only reason you are bring it up is to distract from today’s legal fuck up. I honestly hope you are getting paid. Doing what you do as for free would be to sad to contemplate.

  380. 380.

    The Pale Scot

    @CarolDuhart2: Fur shure. They say the feds should give the land to the states, and then the state should give the “back”? to the people. Wouldn’t that be to the Paiutes?

    Oh, Yea…

    The Burns Paiute tribal council had told ICTMN in an earlier interview that the entire U.S. Fish and Wildlife staff have been ordered to stay home for their own safety.

  381. 381.

    JR in WV

    @Major Major Major Major:

    I always want to scream and shout when I hear a TV reporter tell the world that a jury finds someone “Innocent” of some crime. NONONONO They didn’t !!!

    Not guilty and innocent are not synonyms at all. Having been on several criminal and civil juries, and having an interest in legal findings, I have at least gained that much knowledge.

  382. 382.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @JR in WV: The only place innocence comes into play is our presumption of innocence which puts the burden of proof on the prosecution.

  383. 383.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    @Mnemosyne: You see, armed people in your office are not a problem because you’re also armed. An armed society is a polite society*.

    *This message has been brought to you by your friends at the National Rifle Association.

  384. 384.

    RK

    NYT:

    Soon after Mr. Zimmerman was arrested, there appeared to be a chance that the defense would invoke a provision of Florida self-defense law known as Stand Your Ground. Ultimately it was not part of Mr. O’Mara’s courtroom strategy,

    Dan Abrams:

    The controversial section of that law relates to the fact that there is no “duty to retreat,” meaning that in non-stand your ground states one must, in most cases, first attempt to get away if he or she can.

    In Florida, however, there is no such requirement and the shooter may “stand his or her ground” when firing in self defense.

    But the duty to retreat was not an issue in either Dunn or Zimmerman. In both cases the defendants argued that deadly force was used because they “reasonably” believed that it was necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily injury. That, is at its core, no different than the law in almost every other state.

    Zimmerman claimed Trayvon Martin was pummeling him and Dunn that he had a shotgun pointed at him by a young man saying “I’m going to kill you.” If Dunn’s account were true — and it was contradicted by other witnesses — then retreat hardly seems like an option.

    Regardless of what one thinks of the defenses (and because of Zimmerman’s injuries and the testimony of eyewitnesses, his defense was far stronger legally than Dunn’s claim, which was only supported by his own testimony) the controversial aspect of the law was hardly the issue.

  385. 385.

    Amaranthine RBG

    @Mnemosyne:

    No, Zimmerman didn’t assert the SYG defense at trial either.

    I explained this to you again and again while the trial was happening but you continue to float around in your own imaginary little world.

  386. 386.

    RK

    @Amaranthine RBG: They appear to be saying it didn’t matter what was argued because the SYG instruction was read regardless. What they don’t understand (because they obviously don’t know the facts of the case) is that SYG was irrelevant to Zimmerman’s defense.

  387. 387.

    catbirdman

    I wonder how many jury members feared for their lives if they came down on the gun nuts. The comments of those observing suggested a level of hostility against any aspect of the system that might actually do its job properly. I don’t know how comfy I’d be handing down an 11-year sentence against one of those wackos, if I lived up in that region.

  388. 388.

    OGLiberal

    If this gang of idiots had been black/brown/Muslim – something other than white – there wouldn’t have been a trial…they’d be dead, shot up by various LE agencies. This is a freaking disgrace. That jury can eat a bag of you know whats.

  389. 389.

    low-tech cyclist

    @?BillinGlendaleCA:

    @Mnemosyne: You see, armed people in your office are not a problem because you’re also armed. An armed society is a polite society*.

    *This message has been brought to you by your friends at the National Rifle Association.

    Has anyone ever asked Wayne LaPierre why our inner cities during the 1980s weren’t the most polite, well-mannered places on earth?

  390. 390.

    No One You Know

    I’m livid and helpless. I live here in Oregon. All I can say is that the Bundys must have indeed been judged by their peers, and we are less safe because of this.

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