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You are here: Home / Armchair Jacobins

Armchair Jacobins

by John Cole|  November 7, 20166:38 pm| 150 Comments

This post is in: Clown Shoes, Manic Progressive

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This is kind of hilarious. I followed Corey Robin on FB because I like to see what other people think (a good thing), and sometimes I politely commented. I just got unfriended after this exchange:

wanker3

wanker2

wanker4

That’s just sad and funny on so many levels. And I didn’t change my initial remarks- I initially assumed he was smart enough to go from point a to point b. He wasn’t, so I extended them.

I’ve seen this over and over again with these guys. Zaid Jilani, Freddie de Boer, that Bruenig fellow.

Sad!

In all honesty, what did I say or do that was so offensive here?

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Reader Interactions

150Comments

  1. 1.

    Big R

    November 7, 2016 at 6:39 pm

    At least you didn’t give this one the keys to the joint.

    Robin’s normally a smart feller; race does funny things to people.

  2. 2.

    wonkie

    November 7, 2016 at 6:42 pm

    YOu showed him up in public. He sees his page as a forum for his wisdom which is supposed to accepted, not contested.

  3. 3.

    bobbo

    November 7, 2016 at 6:43 pm

    He is in “I know you are, but what am I?” territory.

  4. 4.

    Mary G

    November 7, 2016 at 6:44 pm

    Somebody needs a nap, and for once, it’s not you, John.

  5. 5.

    Roger Moore

    November 7, 2016 at 6:45 pm

    what did I say or do that was so offensive here?

    You pointed out that he was being a privileged jerk. There is no worse sin.

  6. 6.

    philpm

    November 7, 2016 at 6:45 pm

    Funny that actual logic has driven so many people around the bend this election.

  7. 7.

    msdc

    November 7, 2016 at 6:46 pm

    Zaid Jilani, Freddie de Boer, that Bruenig fellow.

    The bigger the troll, the thinner the skin.

  8. 8.

    Felonius Monk

    November 7, 2016 at 6:46 pm

    Relax, John. Some idiots get offended when you tell them they are full of shit, even if you do it in a gentle and subtle way. So, fuck him.

  9. 9.

    Dolly Llama

    November 7, 2016 at 6:49 pm

    Whenever you refer to this guy, I always think Christopher Robin of 100-Acre Wood fame.

  10. 10.

    BruceFromOhio

    November 7, 2016 at 6:50 pm

    In all honesty, what did I say or do that was so offensive here?

    You used logic to make a point. This is anathema to the Republican mind, worthy of excommunication from the herd.

    ETA: Or unfriending. QED.

    @philpm: Precisely.

  11. 11.

    Corner Stone

    November 7, 2016 at 6:51 pm

    I have read that exchange more than 5 times now. I keep looking for which shell the little ball is hiding under.

  12. 12.

    RaflW

    November 7, 2016 at 6:51 pm

    I didn’t even know who he was till about 7 minutes ago, but in the 39 seconds I spent at Jacobin, I can see he is a pompous fool.

    Be glad to see the backside of him and enjoy your evening, John.

  13. 13.

    kdaug

    November 7, 2016 at 6:52 pm

    You said nothing wrong. Still a carefully Coleibrated asshole, but it’s your nature.

  14. 14.

    redshirt

    November 7, 2016 at 6:53 pm

    Face the facts Cole: You’re a troll.

  15. 15.

    David ?▶️?Blue Wall?▶️? Koch

    November 7, 2016 at 6:54 pm

    translation: he/she grew up wealthy in chappaqua and hates his/her parents/family and is now projecting that hate on to the clintons and everyone else can go fuck themselves because he/she is white, privileged, and financial insulated from cluster-fuck Trump.

    Alt-Left-Firebagger

  16. 16.

    Peale

    November 7, 2016 at 6:54 pm

    Nope. Not gonna buy it that liberals are hypocrites unless they sell their belongings and live in caves.

    Anyway, I can’t find the tweet. But Jill Stein saying that African Americans shouldn’t concern themselves if Trump won because they had experienced far worse in their history…yeah, um that’s pretty much weapons grade white privilege there.

  17. 17.

    scav

    November 7, 2016 at 6:55 pm

    He’s not making a lot of sense even in post one and wanders off mid-point to get in some attempt at an an insult / justification before hitting send. (Evidently the locution pattern is catching). His carpet rebuttal against third-party candidates is only Stein and the Greens, not even the biggest third-parties we’ve got percolating right now. It’s utterly unclear why someone presumably pushing the KKK-annointed king of living in gilt penthouses is now throwing stones at living in Chappaqua NY as unimaginable expressions of white privilege, moreover a white privilege he probably denies having himself. How many bends are there in Trumplandish rivers? They’ve clearly explored well-past all of them.

  18. 18.

    AnotherBruce

    November 7, 2016 at 6:56 pm

    @BruceFromOhio: I don’t think he’s a republican. But man, what a thin skin. You can disagree with someone’s idea with out slamming the door in their face. Sheesh, I don’t think part of being an academic is that you don’t listen to other peoples thoughts if they hurt your feelings.

  19. 19.

    Baud

    November 7, 2016 at 6:58 pm

    I like to see what other people think (a good thing)

    I have yet to find this a fruitful endeavour.

  20. 20.

    lollipopguild

    November 7, 2016 at 7:00 pm

    John-You MUST agree with them on everything that they feel is important because they are always right even when they know that they are not. Certain people and Trump is one of them CANNOT be wrong on anything no matter what.

  21. 21.

    Schlemazel

    November 7, 2016 at 7:00 pm

    The guy is a charlatan. He pretends to be an intellectual but the moment he runs into disagreement instead of looking at his argument and the counter argument, he turns his tiny brain off and blocks you. He is afraid to examine his beliefs because they might be incorrect so he hides from the challenge.

  22. 22.

    Mary G

    November 7, 2016 at 7:01 pm

    WaPo is taking down the firewall tomorrow. I recommend Jennifer Rubin. No, really. Except for the mad crush on McMullen, it’s primo Trump and Republican bashing all the time. Okay, a bit of “Hillary needs to turn right,” but the whupping she’s given James Comey is awesome.

  23. 23.

    RaflW

    November 7, 2016 at 7:02 pm

    @Peale: Awwww, Black folk. You’ve suffered before, so you’re well equipped to suffer again!
    That’s some seriously fresh Stein bilge right there. Jeepers.

  24. 24.

    raven

    November 7, 2016 at 7:03 pm

    Oh yea, I give a fuck what this dude says:

    Corey Robin (born 1967) is an American political theorist, journalist, and professor[1] of Political Science at Brooklyn College and the Graduate Center of the City University of New York. He has devoted his scholarly attention to the study of the contemporary forms of American conservatism and neoconservatism, as well as of the difficulties of both liberals and the New Left in dealing with American supremacy after the end of the Cold War.[citation needed]

    In 1999, Robin received his Ph.D. from Yale University.[2]

  25. 25.

    SiubhanDuinne

    November 7, 2016 at 7:03 pm

    You did nothing offensive, John.

    He is a yellow-bellied lily-livered spineless poltroon.

  26. 26.

    SiubhanDuinne

    November 7, 2016 at 7:03 pm

    @raven:

    Fuck ‘im.

  27. 27.

    raven

    November 7, 2016 at 7:04 pm

    @Schlemazel: You don’t block people on Facebook, you just unfriend them. I’m good at it and you would be too!

  28. 28.

    FlipYrWhig

    November 7, 2016 at 7:04 pm

    Corey Robin is a ridiculous person, and a reliable index of how many of your Facebook friends are ridiculous is how many follow Corey Robin.

    In this case, though, I know what he means. It’s OH YEAH WELL HILLARY CLINTON IS THE MOST WHITE PRIVILEGE HERP DERP

  29. 29.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    November 7, 2016 at 7:04 pm

    DIdn’t DougJ attempt a book club with Robin’s work on conservatism and it all fell apart? I know I bought the book and gave up on it, but I can’t remember if that was because of the book or my life.

  30. 30.

    Marc

    November 7, 2016 at 7:05 pm

    If you’ve gotten enough bad-faith readings then you get hypersensitive, and Robin gets piled on from the right and the extreme left pretty often. I’d chalk it up to no more than that.

  31. 31.

    RaflW

    November 7, 2016 at 7:05 pm

    @Mary G: The “Hillary needs to turn right” fantasy novels from lots of folks are being written tonight and this week.

    I hope she laughs in their faces. She’s seen what Obama got for his tries at bipartisanship.

  32. 32.

    FlipYrWhig

    November 7, 2016 at 7:07 pm

    @scav: You’ve diagnosed him incorrectly — he’s a leftier-than-thou academic faux-radical poseur favored by Freddie DeBoer types and other frustrated academics who are so super radical they’re into theorists you probably wouldn’t know.

  33. 33.

    msdc

    November 7, 2016 at 7:08 pm

    @raven: Robin studies American conservatism and neoconservatism from a leftist perspective. He wrote a well-respected book about it (The Reactionary Mind) a while back; I think it might even have been the subject of a Balloon Juice discussion group?

    He’s also a Jacobin contributor, a stealth firebagger, and a thin-skinned purity troll who can’t take a portion of the criticism he dishes out. (But I repeat myself.)

  34. 34.

    RaflW

    November 7, 2016 at 7:08 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: I’ll take a wild stab, after reading just one Jacobin post by him. It was the book.

    Maybe some people enjoy tiresome deBoer-ish prats, but I don’t.

  35. 35.

    SiubhanDuinne

    November 7, 2016 at 7:08 pm

    @Dolly Llama:

    Christopher Robin

    Christopher Robin is going.
    At least I think he is.
    Where?
    Nobody knows.
    But- he is going-
    I mean he goes
    (To rhyme with “knows”)
    Do we care?
    (To rhyme with “where”)
    We do
    Very much.
    (I haven’t got a rhyme for that
    “Is” in the second line yet.
    Bother.)
    (Now I havent got a rhyme for
    Bother. Bother.)

    Those two bothers will have
    To rhyme with each other. Buther.
    The fact is
    This is more difficult
    Than I thought,
    I ought-
    (Very good indeed)
    I ought
    To begin again,
    But it is easier
    To stop.
    Christopher Robin, good-bye,
    I
    (Good)
    I
    And all your friends
    Sends-
    I mean all your friend
    Send-
    (Very awkward this, it keeps
    Going wrong)
    Well, anyhow, we send
    Our Love.
    We send Our Love.
    We send Our Love.
    W LOL, anyhow, we send Our Love
    END.

  36. 36.

    gus

    November 7, 2016 at 7:08 pm

    To be fair, he never explicitly said what you suggested he did, but if that wasn’t his meaning, I can’t make heads or tails of his post.

  37. 37.

    raven

    November 7, 2016 at 7:09 pm

    @msdc: “Doesn’t mean shit to a tree” as Grace said.

  38. 38.

    Turgidson

    November 7, 2016 at 7:09 pm

    How can his initial comment up top be construed as meaning anything but:

    “Voting third party can’t be an expression of white privilege because the Clintons live in a wealthy area” – which is of course a total nonsequitur, but whatever.

    Yet he spins into a frothing rage when someone points this out. What am I missing.

  39. 39.

    FlipYrWhig

    November 7, 2016 at 7:11 pm

    @gus: He means there are many ways to express white privilege, as for instance living in a posh locale, so voting for a third party doesn’t rise to the level of “ultimate” display of white privilege, neener neener.

  40. 40.

    Baud

    November 7, 2016 at 7:12 pm

    @FlipYrWhig:
    @msdc:

    Sounds deplorable to me.

  41. 41.

    raven

    November 7, 2016 at 7:12 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    Eskimo Blue Day
    Sun cuts loose… from the frozen
    Until it joins with the African sea
    In moving it changes it’s cold and it’s name
    The reason I come and go is the same
    Animal game for me
    You call it rain
    But the human name
    Doesn’t mean shit to a tree

    And if you don’t mind heat in your river
    and forked tongue talking from me
    Swim like an eel fantastic snake
    You can take my love when it’s free
    Electric feel with me
    You call it loud
    But the human crowd
    Doesn’t mean shit to a tree

    Change the strings and notes slide
    Change the bridge and string shift down
    Shift the notes and bride sings
    Fire eating people
    Rising toys of the sun
    Energy dies without body warm
    Icicles ruin your gun

    Water my roots…the natural thing
    Natural spring to the sea
    Sulphur springs make my body float
    Like a ship made of logs from a tree
    Ah, Redwoods talk to me
    Say it plainly
    The human name
    Doesn’t mean shit to a tree

    Snow called water…going violent
    Dam the end of the stream
    Too much cold in one place breaks
    That’s why…you might know what I mean
    Consider how small you are
    Compared to your scream
    The human dream
    Doesn’t mean shit to a tree

  42. 42.

    FlipYrWhig

    November 7, 2016 at 7:12 pm

    @Turgidson: You’re not missing anything. He’s an asshole.

  43. 43.

    scav

    November 7, 2016 at 7:13 pm

    @FlipYrWhig: Well, OK for the Trumpism, but if that’s what passes for holier than thou academic leftism, they’ve exploring a similar riverine landscape. That paragraph has not only explored past several bends, it’s pure stream of conscious (a braided one, to get technical). I can almost make the case that the last two sentences are his attempting to use his former residence at Chappaqua as the ultimate expression of white privilege which, having established he posses it himself, is then immediately used to tell everyone else to piss off.

    Seriously, what is the single take-away, logically-developed point from the pseudo-paragraph. Fuck off, is clearly the takeaway, but the accompanying verbiage?

  44. 44.

    FlipYrWhig

    November 7, 2016 at 7:14 pm

    @scav: In its simplest form it’s this: voting for a third party isn’t the “ultimate” display of white privilege because living among fancy white people is even more white privilege-y than that, checkmate!

  45. 45.

    Roger Moore

    November 7, 2016 at 7:14 pm

    @Turgidson:
    You didn’t get it quite right. It’s not that voting third party isn’t an expression of white privilege, it’s that it’s less extreme privilege than living in a rich, white neighborhood. I think Cole nailed it, though; that’s really about the privilege of wealth.

  46. 46.

    Chip Daniels

    November 7, 2016 at 7:15 pm

    I read Corey Robin over at Crooked Timber and usually find his posts to be thoughtful and especially like his dissection of conservatism as being about the maintenance of private male privilege.

    What is going on in this Facebook exchange, I haven’t a clue.

    But maybe even thoughtful serious people get cranky and irritable sometimes.

  47. 47.

    Frankensteinbeck

    November 7, 2016 at 7:16 pm

    I’m not sure what you did, John, but he blatantly was not interested in a good faith argument. You asked for clarification of a vague statement (I wondered if he just meant white privilege can get even more insane than you’d imagine) and he got snotty and refused to give it, then banned you when you tried to lay out where you came from. At no point did he make any argument at all, aside from the original cryptic sentence, and he was the one raising the ‘aggressive and insulting’ stakes. Whatever bug is up his ass, you are totally clear in this one.

    @Peale:
    Jesus fuck. That is Republican-grade callous.

  48. 48.

    Baud

    November 7, 2016 at 7:17 pm

    @FlipYrWhig:
    @Roger Moore:

    Corey’s wrong even on his terms. Voting third party in the context of this election is a far worse display of white privilege than just about anything else.

  49. 49.

    philpm

    November 7, 2016 at 7:17 pm

    @Turgidson:

    Yet he spins into a frothing rage when someone points this out. What am I missing.

    Just a lot of well-disguised butthurt.

  50. 50.

    David ?▶️?Blue Wall?▶️? Koch

    November 7, 2016 at 7:18 pm

    yeah know, Franklin Roosevelt grew up rich.

    And for that crime the Alt-Left freaks would spit at him today

  51. 51.

    Barbara

    November 7, 2016 at 7:18 pm

    @Big R: I like Corey Robin’s work. For the record, my daughter, the Bernie supporter, has been appealing on her FB page for a while now exactly what you tweeted — that before you vote you think about who stands to lose the most if Trump is elected. It’s not a subtle point even if Corey Robin would prefer to take a stand that is unadulterated by worry over the consequences for other people who don’t look like him and who, by the way, also don’t have tenure.

  52. 52.

    FlipYrWhig

    November 7, 2016 at 7:18 pm

    @Chip Daniels: He’s a dick who can’t admit someone else might have a point and is convinced he’s the expert on everything he decides to think about, that’s what’s going on. DeBoer, Greenwald, and Robin are peas in a pod.

  53. 53.

    Bobby Thomson

    November 7, 2016 at 7:19 pm

    Never heard of this dickhead before, but he’s a dickhead.

  54. 54.

    Omnes Omnibus

    November 7, 2016 at 7:19 pm

    @David ?▶️?Blue Wall?▶️? Koch: He was also a Wall Street lawyer.

  55. 55.

    Chip Daniels

    November 7, 2016 at 7:19 pm

    @RaflW:

    I hope she laughs in their faces. She’s seen what Obama got for his tries at bipartisanship.

    One thing I admire about Hillary is her toughness and shrewdness. She has been embattled since the day she entered the public stage, and doesn’t strike me as having any sort of naivete.

  56. 56.

    Comrade Scrutinizer

    November 7, 2016 at 7:22 pm

    I’ve read his post three or four times. I don’t think that he said what you say he said, but on the other hand, what he said doesn’t make much sense. What I’m reading is “some people say that third-party voting is white privilege. I have not encouraged third-party votes. This sentiment (which sentiment? Third-party voting ==white privilege?) is idiotic and is on social media. I grew up in a rich white community. That (living there?) is the ultimate in white privilege. Neener, neener, FOAD.” I don’t get anything but whinging out of that.

  57. 57.

    John Cole

    November 7, 2016 at 7:22 pm

    @Marc:

    If you’ve gotten enough bad-faith readings then you get hypersensitive, and Robin gets piled on from the right and the extreme left pretty often. I’d chalk it up to no more than that.

    Could be, but I don’t see how this was a bad faith reading. His post made no sense.

    @Chip Daniels:

    I read Corey Robin over at Crooked Timber and usually find his posts to be thoughtful and especially like his dissection of conservatism as being about the maintenance of private male privilege.

    Generally been my experience, as well. Maybe he just got out of a shitty faculty meeting and hasn’t had a drink yet. Those things can make you want to kill someone.

  58. 58.

    the Conster, la Citoyenne

    November 7, 2016 at 7:23 pm

    Watching the white male left melt down over Clinton is as entertaining as watching the white male right melt down over Clinton. Some day we’re going to have a national discussion about the intersectionality of class, race and gender. Oh wait, that’s tomorrow.

  59. 59.

    Chip Daniels

    November 7, 2016 at 7:24 pm

    @FlipYrWhig:
    Kind of like the whole “Can I admire Wagner’s music even though he was an anti-Semite” thing, I can admire someone’s work even if they are a dick in their personal life.

  60. 60.

    Mnemosyne

    November 7, 2016 at 7:24 pm

    @msdc:

    If a person studying American conservatism is unable to coherently discuss race and white privilege, how is anything else that person says a valuable insight into American conservatism?

  61. 61.

    different-church-lady

    November 7, 2016 at 7:25 pm

    @Roger Moore:

    that’s really about the privilege of wealth.

    Problem being that on the Venn diagram the wealth circles and the race circles have got some serious correlations going on.

  62. 62.

    Lawrence Rocke

    November 7, 2016 at 7:26 pm

    @RaflW: Corey Robin wrote the very excellent The Reactionary Mind. Essential reading for these times. He blogs at Crooked Timber and they are always well worth reading. Don’t let this tempest in a twitter cup give you the wrong idea; this election just wears on folks

  63. 63.

    Shana

    November 7, 2016 at 7:26 pm

    @FlipYrWhig: Oh, so he’s the political equivalent of John Cusak’s characher in High Fidelity. I movie I dearly love BTW.

  64. 64.

    jenn

    November 7, 2016 at 7:27 pm

    @Frankensteinbeck: Honestly, a lot of these folks have had a Tsunami of Awful directed at them for quite some time. After you’ve had a few too many posts and tweets about Pepe, ovens, and lampshades directed your way, I’d imagine that you’re a little more primed to be pessimistic about a comment’s intent, and the temptation increases to pull the plug on conversations. Most of the time that’s probably a good choice – but other times that means you’ve misread the situation and good faith conversations are cut short.

  65. 65.

    Schlemazel

    November 7, 2016 at 7:27 pm

    @raven:
    Oh, I know how its done but mostly I don’t friend people I know are assholes. The couple I have blocked have refused to accept that I won’t allow racist, sexist or misogynistic crap to appear on my wall.

    One of my friends, who remains steadfastly apolitical posted something interesting last week. “Say nothing negative about the other candidate. Tell my why you support your candidate” I wrote a long history of Hillary’s experience and her successes. SOmeone else (a dairy farmer from upstate NY) wrote about how he was prepared to dislike her when she became his senator then he met her & she listened to his problems & offered to work with him on getting necessary changes. A third person wrote about personal experience with her and her humanity. By the end of the week there were 8 pro-Hillz comments and zero Trumpers. That made me happy

  66. 66.

    Shana

    November 7, 2016 at 7:27 pm

    @Turgidson: You’re not missing anything. Got it first time.

  67. 67.

    Mike J

    November 7, 2016 at 7:27 pm

    Argh. My next door neighbors are getting a new roof and it sounds like Addie Bundren has taken a turn for the worse.

  68. 68.

    different-church-lady

    November 7, 2016 at 7:28 pm

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne:

    Some day we’re going to have a national discussion about the intersectionality of class, race and gender. Oh wait, that’s tomorrow.

    I just took a look at the schedule and it says “TUES NOV 8: TOPIC – CLINTON EMAILS”

  69. 69.

    Frankensteinbeck

    November 7, 2016 at 7:28 pm

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne:
    Tomorrow is the slap in the face. The conversation may start Wednesday, but I’m holding open that it will probably start with years of whining.

  70. 70.

    Litlebritdifrnt

    November 7, 2016 at 7:29 pm

    I am guessing that one of The Boss’s songs tonight will be “We Take Care of Our Own” what are your guesses.

  71. 71.

    scav

    November 7, 2016 at 7:29 pm

    @FlipYrWhig: That’s a search for “the” ultimate expression of white privilege? Choice of neighbors is further down in the circle of hell than abetting handing over the nation to an racist incompetent whose reign will very probably have actual impacts upon the lives of not only to Americans but people globally, the economy, the planet, blah blah blah. That’s a Through the Looking Glass standard chess-board there (there’s a boat in that as well, go figure). It’s not your actions and motivations that define you, it’s the demographic profile of your zip-code.

    ETA: Seriously, Are ZIP codes the countertop based analyses of this tribe of intellectuals?

  72. 72.

    Mnemosyne

    November 7, 2016 at 7:31 pm

    @Frankensteinbeck:

    His argument was basically, Al Gore says he’s so concerned about global warming, but he still rides in airplanes. A nonsequitur designed to dodge the underlying question.

  73. 73.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    November 7, 2016 at 7:32 pm

    @Litlebritdifrnt: Land of Hope and Dreams, Born to Run

  74. 74.

    laura

    November 7, 2016 at 7:32 pm

    I’ve usually appreciated Corey Robin’s opinion at Crooked Timber, and agree with Cole that he took foolish exception in this instance. It’s not just Corey Robin sadly. . . I’m a huge fan of Naked Capitalism but am waiting out the vote Trump and JohnStein 3rd party “no more lesser evil for me” focus.
    I just can’t anymore.
    Is it Taco Tuesday yet?

  75. 75.

    TF79

    November 7, 2016 at 7:32 pm

    Robin is way more insightful than GG or DeBore on average, though similarly thin-skinned, bomb-throwers (“F off with your cheap moral drama…” clearly being a call for civilized and thoughtful debate re: privilege)

  76. 76.

    mainsailset

    November 7, 2016 at 7:34 pm

    My niece just informed me that I keep missing the point because, ‘Thinking ruins common sense’. I believe that’s what you just encountered John.

  77. 77.

    hellslittlestangel

    November 7, 2016 at 7:36 pm

    @John Cole: I’ve noticed over the past few months a strong drift toward contrarianism at Crooked Timber. It’s like an unfunny parody of doctrinaire academic leftism. I used to find it an interesting blog — now I only give it a glance when I’m surfing aimlessly and see the link in Eschaton’s blogroll.

  78. 78.

    Roger Moore

    November 7, 2016 at 7:36 pm

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne:

    Some day we’re going to have a national discussion about the intersectionality of class, race and gender. Oh wait, that’s tomorrow.

    We aren’t going to have a national discussion of it until our media gatekeepers are diverse enough to welcome that kind of discussion.

  79. 79.

    Pete

    November 7, 2016 at 7:37 pm

    Twitter is for flouncing; but if you keep doing that, whom are you addressing?

  80. 80.

    the Conster, la Citoyenne

    November 7, 2016 at 7:37 pm

    Propane Jane is my guide through all of this shit show of an election, and she nailed it a couple of days ago –

    Trump, Bernie, and all the Bros in between; all mad that the expiration date on privilege finally came.

    What we’re witnessing in real time, in all its aspects, is inchoate rage and confusion from white males who either aren’t woke, or think they’re woke but aren’t, around that fact.

  81. 81.

    different-church-lady

    November 7, 2016 at 7:37 pm

    So, now that we’ve established that living in a rich white community is the ultimate form of white privilege, how does voting third party help non-whites exactly?

  82. 82.

    the Conster, la Citoyenne

    November 7, 2016 at 7:38 pm

    @Roger Moore:

    Ok, not a discussion, but more of a referendum. There will be a lot of mischaracterization of the meaning of it, for sure, from cable news mostly white/male panels.

  83. 83.

    msdc

    November 7, 2016 at 7:39 pm

    @Mnemosyne: Oh, he can discuss race and white privilege very coherently. He just doesn’t think we should discuss them in relation to him.

  84. 84.

    Comrade Scrutinizer

    November 7, 2016 at 7:40 pm

    @mainsailset:

    Thinking ruins common sense.

    Sigh. Sounds like most of the students in any intro physics class I ever taught.

  85. 85.

    Steeplejack

    November 7, 2016 at 7:40 pm

    I doubt if Jill Stein’s countertops—​or even Gary Johnson’s—​could stand up to an inspection for white privilege. Egg McMuffin? Maybe.

  86. 86.

    Redleg

    November 7, 2016 at 7:40 pm

    I can’t see how Cole’s comments were inappropriate or even inaccurate regarding what Robin wrote. At Crooked Timber Robin normally seems like a reasonable fellow. Perhaps he was having a bad day. Or perhaps on blog posts he takes more time to read, think, and reply while on the Twitter he just fires away like Donald Trump at the slightest provocation.

  87. 87.

    Barry

    November 7, 2016 at 7:42 pm

    @msdc: “He’s also a Jacobin contributor, a stealth firebagger, and a thin-skinned purity troll who can’t take a portion of the criticism he dishes out. (But I repeat myself.)”

    The book is IMHO very good, and his central thesis (for the right , it’s never about freedom, but rather hierarchy) is great.

    But he is a thin-skinned guy.

    If you want more, go to Crooked Timber, where he’s a front-pager.

  88. 88.

    scav

    November 7, 2016 at 7:42 pm

    @mainsailset: ‘Thinking ruins common sense’. ? Is that like “Sentence structure ruins real communication”? And then, isn’t that just a smidge elitist to assume that all those hypothesized possessors of common sense are necessarily incapable of thought?

  89. 89.

    Mary G

    November 7, 2016 at 7:45 pm

    @RaflW: Yeah, she may pay lip service to bipartisanship, but she’s known the right up close and personal for decades. No way will she be as naive as President Obama. I suspect a Maggie Thatcher Iron Lady is going to be the model.

  90. 90.

    the Conster, la Citoyenne

    November 7, 2016 at 7:45 pm

    @different-church-lady:

    That’s the last question any third party voter asks themselves, because their vote is a special snowflake vote. Which is all you need to know about third party voters.

  91. 91.

    Roger Moore

    November 7, 2016 at 7:50 pm

    @different-church-lady:

    Problem being that on the Venn diagram the wealth circles and the race circles have got some serious correlations going on.

    Not in a way that really affects this. The circle of real wealth is a lot smaller than the circle of whiteness, even if wealthy is mostly inside white. But I suspect that, say, Oprah Winfrey would have a much easier time getting acceptance in a place like Chappaqua than Joe Sixpack would. Meanwhile I suspect that Oprah is going to be a lot less prone to vote third party than Joe Sixpack is.

  92. 92.

    Matt McIrvin

    November 7, 2016 at 7:52 pm

    @hellslittlestangel: It’s been a long time since I read Crooked Timber regularly, but there’s always been a prevailing opinion there that conventional US party politics is stupid and useless as a way to ever make anything better, and advocacy for Democrats is something most of the headliners there find distasteful, done only as an alternative to some greater catastrophe and maybe not even then.

    I remember dsquared in particular having a contrarian urge to advocate not voting, whenever the subject came up. It was the first time I saw the argument for voting for a candidate you don’t particularly love, lest a far worse candidate get in, described as “extortion”.

  93. 93.

    Omnes Omnibus

    November 7, 2016 at 7:53 pm

    @Mary G:

    No way will she be as naive as President Obama.

    I don’t think that Obama was naive. I think that he felt that he had to seen as making the effort – that he could not behave in a way that the GOP and MSM were going characterize as “Angry Black Man.” I know they did it anyway, but, if he hadn’t done the playacting, it would have been worse.

  94. 94.

    Mnemosyne

    November 7, 2016 at 7:55 pm

    @msdc:

    Ah. Sadly, that’s a common blind spot for my people. I would probably have an even bigger one than I do if I hadn’t had it (figuratively!) beaten out of me by very patient people of color, some of them on this very blog.

  95. 95.

    Chip Daniels

    November 7, 2016 at 7:57 pm

    Like Cole, I am a relatively recent convert to liberalism.
    One of the things I have noticed is that, even when well meaning, the most dominant voices on the left are pretty much white, male and educated.
    Don’t know why this should be such a surprise, since the same forces of privilege and in-group clubbiness would reward white men of all political persuasions.
    But the thing about being white and male and educated I have learned, is that its not enough to think of ourselves as “enlightened” or “sensitive” even if we have read all the right books and nod along.

    We can’t possibly speak about things we haven’t experienced, and the difference between a white male speaking and a black female speaking about race and sexism is the difference between anthropology and testimony.

  96. 96.

    Comrade Scrutinizer

    November 7, 2016 at 7:57 pm

    White privilege? Having a color background with your blog post.

  97. 97.

    Bobby Thomson

    November 7, 2016 at 7:58 pm

    SEPTA strike settled!

  98. 98.

    AnotherBruce

    November 7, 2016 at 8:00 pm

    @different-church-lady: I’m glad you stressed the word ultimate I think that ultimately, the word ultimate was pissing Robin off. Just a theory, but I think that he might have agreed if John had said “Third party voting is an expression of white privilege.”

  99. 99.

    msdc

    November 7, 2016 at 8:01 pm

    @Mnemosyne: Yeah, I’m not into masochism as the pathway to political enlightenment, or bullying as the way to get people there.

  100. 100.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    November 7, 2016 at 8:03 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: and the whole “getting things passed by the Senate outside of that two month window when Dems had a supermajority”

  101. 101.

    Omnes Omnibus

    November 7, 2016 at 8:04 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: That too.

  102. 102.

    chopper

    November 7, 2016 at 8:05 pm

    the guy had no point whatsoever. you pointed it out, and it pissed him off.

  103. 103.

    RaflW

    November 7, 2016 at 8:07 pm

    @Lawrence Rocke: OK, I will try to be less crispy myself. But I think he really misconstrues what white privilege is in that Chappaqua crack.

    He’s an academic, I can’t imagine he doesn’t understand white privilege in terms of 1. access to voting power, 2. access to things like not driving while black (which a white cracker in Alabama gets even if he’d be too poor to have lunch at a Chappaqua’s most down-at-heel lunch joint). Robin just seems to willfully throw up the place-based, class-based crap when the issue is freedom from race-based consequences in daily life. It seems highly bullshitty.

  104. 104.

    the Conster, la Citoyenne

    November 7, 2016 at 8:09 pm

    @Chip Daniels:

    Good for you for traveling the path to being awake to your unearned status. It’s very difficult for white men to see outside of the white supremacist patriarchal paradigm that privileges them in every way it’s possible to be privileged. It’s like trying to explain water to fish. But, once seen, it cannot be unseen, or denied. That’s what the struggle is that we’re seeing now everywhere breaking out – the struggle to keep the white male supremacist lid on a changing country that sees it, and wants it gone. Obama’s very existence was the crack in it, and Hillary is the smashing of it.

  105. 105.

    BruceFromOhio

    November 7, 2016 at 8:13 pm

    @AnotherBruce: No shit. See also Loomis, Erik. That dude puts himself out there, way out there, not only tolerates it but engages it. This guy? Sheesh.

    See also: what @raven said.

  106. 106.

    eemom

    November 7, 2016 at 8:13 pm

    who IS that guy? Am I supposed to know?

  107. 107.

    Mnemosyne

    November 7, 2016 at 8:15 pm

    @msdc:

    Unfortunately, when a white girl straight from the suburbs (like me) says something really, really stupid about race, it is painful to hear that I just said something really, really stupid regardless of how kindly the other person lets me know. It’s not bullying for someone to speak up and let you know that you just said something hurtful.

  108. 108.

    Frankensteinbeck

    November 7, 2016 at 8:16 pm

    @Roger Moore:
    Those gatekeepers have made it plain they will let the gate burn down before they share. Sound like any political movements you know?

  109. 109.

    the Conster, la Citoyenne

    November 7, 2016 at 8:19 pm

    @Roger Moore:

    Maybe Oprah because of her exceptionally high visibility, but any rich black person in a rich white neighborhood will trigger police calls – ask Morgan Freeman or Chris Rock, or Henry Louis Gates.

  110. 110.

    different-church-lady

    November 7, 2016 at 8:20 pm

    @AnotherBruce:

    …ultimately, the word ultimate was pissing Robin off.

    Fair enough. But I do believe we’re seeing an good example of why when someone says a stupid thing, saying a counter-stupid thing is not really the answer.

  111. 111.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    November 7, 2016 at 8:21 pm

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne: Tim Scott, I don’t like the guy but I give him props for speaking up the way he did

  112. 112.

    the Conster, la Citoyenne

    November 7, 2016 at 8:22 pm

    @Frankensteinbeck:

    The most under-reported, unacknowledged memory hole story of this election cycle is the one day story of Hillary identifying Bannon and the white supremacist alt-right’s takeover of the Trump campaign. All of the media are beneficiaries of that system. It was the dog that didn’t bark. It’s all you need to know about what’s going on.

  113. 113.

    the Conster, la Citoyenne

    November 7, 2016 at 8:22 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Yeah, so, why is he a Republican?

  114. 114.

    debbie

    November 7, 2016 at 8:23 pm

    I hate social media. I just blocked and unfriended my asshole nephew and need to figure out how to avoid Thanksgiving.

  115. 115.

    BruceFromOhio

    November 7, 2016 at 8:24 pm

    @Schlemazel:

    SOmeone else (a dairy farmer from upstate NY) wrote about how he was prepared to dislike her when she became his senator then he met her & she listened to his problems & offered to work with him on getting necessary changes.

    This is how it is supposed to work. This is how shit gets done. Too many in DC have forgotten this. Democracy in general, and America specifically, has generated a splendid civilization based on this simple arrangement.

  116. 116.

    JJ

    November 7, 2016 at 8:24 pm

    I wonder what he makes of Bill’s Harlem office.

  117. 117.

    msdc

    November 7, 2016 at 8:26 pm

    @Mnemosyne: I understand. I just don’t start from the assumption that those conversations should only flow one way (if they do, then they aren’t conversations) or that they require the performance of abjection and self-deprecation to proceed in a healthy direction.

    To put it another way, Robin’s problem isn’t that he hasn’t had his blind spots “beaten out of him,” it’s that he refuses to discuss them at all – and he blocks people like John when they do.

  118. 118.

    BruceFromOhio

    November 7, 2016 at 8:30 pm

    @debbie: Watch football and drink beer.

    Always worked for me…

  119. 119.

    BruceFromOhio

    November 7, 2016 at 8:32 pm

    @msdc:

    I just don’t start from the assumption that those conversations should only flow one way (if they do, then they aren’t conversations) or that they require the performance of abjection and self-deprecation to proceed in a healthy direction.

    Holy crow, you just described a specific incident that occurred over the weekend, and it ended with fairly big decision to end a long-running business relationship. Nice to see it caught in a single sentence.

  120. 120.

    trnc

    November 7, 2016 at 8:32 pm

    @debbie:

    I just blocked and unfriended my asshole nephew and need to figure out how to avoid Thanksgiving.

    Head on, because you’ll be the one in a position to gloat. Tell him he should hang onto his “Hillary for Prison” shirt because it will be way more valuable as a collectors’ item when she finishes her second term.

  121. 121.

    Dolly Llama

    November 7, 2016 at 8:34 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne: Thank you so much. Sorry I was so late getting back to you, I was waylaid, but thank you sincerely.

  122. 122.

    JJ

    November 7, 2016 at 8:36 pm

    @Schlemazel: She called that her “Listening Tour.” She went to every county in NYS and listened. What a lot of stamina she has, I thought at the time.

  123. 123.

    Gus diZerega

    November 7, 2016 at 8:58 pm

    @Big R: Robin has little interest in respecting informed disagreement. I have had my own experience with him. Very thin skin.

  124. 124.

    YellowDog

    November 7, 2016 at 9:03 pm

    Robin reminds me of some of the lefties I knew in graduate school. They epitomized white privilege, and fancied themselves the vanguard of the proletariat. They were also stoned most of the time, so nothing happened.

  125. 125.

    gus

    November 7, 2016 at 9:05 pm

    @FlipYrWhig: Right, what I gathered as well, but when you have to say “he means” it means his post was horribly written. Maybe he intended to leave himself an out for Cole’s argument, which he must have suspected would happen.

  126. 126.

    debbie

    November 7, 2016 at 9:07 pm

    @BruceFromOhio:

    Not sure there’s enough beer for that to work. It’s a very long day.

  127. 127.

    Omnes Omnibus

    November 7, 2016 at 9:09 pm

    @debbie: Vodka?

  128. 128.

    debbie

    November 7, 2016 at 9:18 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I’d pass out by 2 pm. Maybe that’s the ticket!

  129. 129.

    Omnes Omnibus

    November 7, 2016 at 9:18 pm

    @debbie: Always happy to help.

  130. 130.

    Uncle Ebeneezer

    November 7, 2016 at 9:26 pm

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne: I’m simultaneously thrilled (because of the importance) and petrified (having seen how these things usually go) at the prospect of this.

  131. 131.

    msdc

    November 7, 2016 at 9:42 pm

    @BruceFromOhio: Wow. I hope the decision turns out well – that can’t have been easy.

  132. 132.

    sherparick

    November 7, 2016 at 9:43 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne: I enjoyed reading “the Reactionary Mind.” But like a lot of left intellectuals he basically likes being agreed with and take any argument or challenge as a personal insult. He also, like all the special snowflakes voting for Jill Stein or just not voting because Hillary is so “Third Way” (she’s not, far from it), he is a little thin skin on having it pointed out to him that rich white academics like himself or not likely to feel the heel of the state and its actors likes millions of Black, Brown, white working people, and women of all colors will if Trump is elected.

  133. 133.

    mainsailset

    November 7, 2016 at 9:47 pm

    @scav: Yup, pretty much.

  134. 134.

    NW Phil

    November 7, 2016 at 9:49 pm

    …I like to see what other people think (a good thing)…

    That’s why I love this site. Y’all are braver than me about reading other websites/ watching cable TV news and will report back on what the loonies are saying.

  135. 135.

    Doug!

    November 7, 2016 at 9:55 pm

    I think maybe his post made even less sense than you think it did and that’s why he didn’t understand your critique.

  136. 136.

    Diana

    November 7, 2016 at 10:17 pm

    @Lawrence Rocke: I agree. I read his earlier work when it came out during the Bush administration and it was exactly what I needed; no-one else was explaining so clearly exactly why the right wingers needed their war. I think it’s just the election driving everyone crazy, because I really can recommend the Reactionary Mind.

  137. 137.

    Diana

    November 7, 2016 at 10:19 pm

    @eemom: He’s a scholar of politics. I think of him as the guy who reads Edmund Burke so I don’t have to. His work is very thorough.

  138. 138.

    aimai

    November 7, 2016 at 10:21 pm

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne: I love propane jane.

  139. 139.

    Diana

    November 7, 2016 at 10:25 pm

    @Mnemosyne: Because there’s more to conservatism than race. Edmund Burke didn’t write about race.

  140. 140.

    Nick

    November 7, 2016 at 10:27 pm

    @hellslittlestangel:

    I agree — something happened to Crooked Timber this election cycle, it stopped being interesting and relevant. A lot of posts and arguments seemed to assume certain facts to be well understood, when an outsider couldn’t even figure out what the point was.

  141. 141.

    eemom

    November 7, 2016 at 10:34 pm

    @Diana:

    Thank you!

  142. 142.

    the Conster, la Citoyenne

    November 7, 2016 at 10:45 pm

    @aimai:

    She’s so on point. For me, she provides the unified field theory of politics/intersectionality – the key to understanding everything about our political and media landscape. She should be on TV with Joy Reid.

  143. 143.

    RK

    November 7, 2016 at 10:48 pm

    Robin’s taking issue with third party voting as “the ultimate expression of white privilege.” He dismisses that claim and cites his own example but offers no argument for his position making his post kind of pointless.

  144. 144.

    catbirdman

    November 7, 2016 at 10:59 pm

    You called him out on his misdirection — a la, Al Gore flies in airplanes and is fat, so he can’t make any valid arguments about climate change. They don’t like that.

  145. 145.

    JimV

    November 7, 2016 at 11:52 pm

    CR’s point (barring some other context from other posts that I don’t have) is that calling a third-party vote the ultimate in white privilege is way overblown, and in his view, comes off as sanctimonious. For some unknown reason (again, barring other context) he decided to state this in an obnoxious and intentionally offensive way.

    I think he may have a semantic point. That is, I tend to agree that people who vote for a 3rd-party candidate for President might do so because they honestly think that candidate is the best choice and that both DT and HRC are bad choices. I think they would be wrong, but being wrong and exercising white privilege aren’t necessarily the same thing. In fact, for a clear counterexample, there are a (very) few Blacks and Latinos who will vote for third-party candidates (or even Trump), making your blanket statement wrong.

    If that is what he meant, which seems to me a plausible if perhaps charitable reading, then your reply is off point. A better tact might have been just asking him for clarification, without making and stating an assumed position to argue against preemptively.

    What do I know? Not much, but you did ask what we thought. You’re welcome. (I have to admit, playing the privilege card seems like a mean tactic to me. Why not make an argument, such as HRC is not the demon that she has been painted, Trump is, and the 3rd-party candidates are unqualified?)

  146. 146.

    Tim in SF

    November 8, 2016 at 12:01 am

    Here’s the link to the exchange, in case you’re curious. It doesn’t seem like his other friends gave him much of a pass.

  147. 147.

    Marc

    November 8, 2016 at 12:37 am

    Rawk on, Mr Cole.

  148. 148.

    Jan Glynis

    November 8, 2016 at 1:47 am

    @JimV: This is exactly what he meant, and Cole was the ONLY person in the thread who failed to understand that.

  149. 149.

    Uncle Ebeneezer

    November 8, 2016 at 1:54 am

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne: The tear she went on about Why We Can’t Have Nice Socialism (Spoiler: because of racism) was one of the most epic and best reads of this election cycle.

  150. 150.

    Constance Reader

    November 8, 2016 at 8:37 am

    What you said that was so offensive was “vote your values and principles” instead of “ERMAGERD Republicans you have to vote big D or we are all doomed, I tell you, DOOOOMED.”

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