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Balloon Juice

Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

You are so fucked. Still, I wish you the best of luck.

Too often we confuse noise with substance. too often we confuse setbacks with defeat.

Let me file that under fuck it.

Chutkan laughs. Lauro sits back down.

When your entire life is steeped in white supremacy, equality feels like discrimination.

Following reporting rules is only for the little people, apparently.

JFC, are there no editors left at that goddamn rag?

Never entrust democracy to any process that requires republicans to act in good faith.

When someone says they “love freedom”, rest assured they don’t mean yours.

He wakes up lying, and he lies all day.

🎶 Those boots were made for mockin’ 🎵

Imperialist aggressors must be defeated, or the whole world loses.

Reality always lies in wait for … Democrats.

Hi god, it’s us. Thanks a heap, you’re having a great week and it’s only Thursday!

If senate republicans had any shame, they’d die of it.

Someone should tell Republicans that violence is the last refuge of the incompetent, or possibly the first.

He really is that stupid.

Be a traveling stable for those who can’t find room at the inn.

“Why isn’t this Snickers bar only a nickel?”

Take hopelessness and turn it into resilience.

You don’t get rid of your umbrella while it’s still raining.

Technically true, but collectively nonsense

I conferred with the team and they all agree – still not tired of winning!

I’ve spoken to my cat about this, but it doesn’t seem to do any good.

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You are here: Home / Music / Late Night Open Music and Nothing to do with the Election Thread

Late Night Open Music and Nothing to do with the Election Thread

by Sarah, Proud and Tall|  November 7, 201610:14 pm| 137 Comments

This post is in: Music, Open Threads

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Hello kiddies… are we all enjoying day three million of the 2016 election campaign?

I’m distracting myself from refreshing PEC just one more time by listening to the big, beautiful and very sexy Lizzo, while baking laxative-laced treats for the Trump campaign after party.

What’s keeping you sane? (I know, there are some fundamental assumptions there that may not be justified)

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Previous Post: « Your Rights as a Voter: Share Widely, Share Well – Updated
Next Post: Late-Night Rambling Open Thread: Whither the Michigander Vote? »

Reader Interactions

137Comments

  1. 1.

    joegy

    November 7, 2016 at 10:19 pm

    Last Week Tonight keeps me sane and giggling

    Westworld keeps me distracted

  2. 2.

    Omnes Omnibus

    November 7, 2016 at 10:19 pm

    I spent much of the weekend rereading Dick Francis novels. Been listening to Joseph. Sanity level: No better/worse than usual.

  3. 3.

    Suzanne

    November 7, 2016 at 10:23 pm

    Just so ready for 2016 to be over. This year has been unpleasant and expensive and I am angry at everything. I hate my life.

  4. 4.

    Mnemosyne

    November 7, 2016 at 10:24 pm

    If you like animation and you’re not excited about Moana, there’s something wrong with you.

    Here’s today’s sneak peek for Moana Mondays.

  5. 5.

    Omnes Omnibus

    November 7, 2016 at 10:28 pm

    @Mnemosyne: Aren’t you sneaking around behind Hamilton’s back?

  6. 6.

    TheMightyTrowel

    November 7, 2016 at 10:29 pm

    Here’s my totally not election related stress of teh moment: I just realised that a paper I thought was 90% done is not in fact 90%. Actually, when I wrote it, I seem to have only used endnote for about 2/3 of the references and then just inserted the others as I was going without noting what specifically I was citing (I wrote the majority of my bits in June, so it’s been a while). Now I’m swimming through my endnote library, the notes I was making around the time I was writing and just muttering over and over “thomas 1966. what the fuck is thomas 1966”. Oy vey.

    Life lesson: when you have insomia and the 3rd sinus infection in 6 weeks (as I did at that point earlier in the year) don’t forget to write yourself notes so your future, better slept and healthier self knows wtf was going on inside your head.

  7. 7.

    schrodinger's cat

    November 7, 2016 at 10:29 pm

    Unpacking is what I have been doing.

  8. 8.

    Mnemosyne

    November 7, 2016 at 10:30 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Is it cheating if it’s the same guy in a different role?

  9. 9.

    TheMightyTrowel

    November 7, 2016 at 10:33 pm

    @Mnemosyne: (Moana is going to be in the line up next time I teach archaeology in film and fiction – the official lecture title will be “Disney’s colonialism and the ancient world”, the unofficial one: “TheMightyTrowel wrecks your childhood in 55 minutes”)

  10. 10.

    Adam L Silverman

    November 7, 2016 at 10:37 pm

    @TheMightyTrowel: Don’t forget the Three Amigos!

  11. 11.

    Mnemosyne

    November 7, 2016 at 10:37 pm

    @TheMightyTrowel:

    You may want to talk to the Oceanic Story Trust before you write your lecture — that’s the group of representatives from the various islands who approved the storyline and characters throughout the production. They have a prominent credit at the end.

    Though I’m pretty sure that a movie that includes a demigod, a lava monster, murderous ambulatory coconuts, and a singing crab counts as a fairy tale, not as history.

    And, in conclusion, I will say that you’re just jealous because most of the voice actors are Kiwis, not Aussies. ;-p

  12. 12.

    redshirt

    November 7, 2016 at 10:39 pm

    How many of you are watching Westworld? I’ve caught a couple episodes in hotels and like it, though I don’t have much of an idea what’s going on. It’s pretty.

    Speaking of which, I stayed at the Intercontinental in Boston last week. Pretty nice, but I’ve become jaded, so not like “blow me away” nice. The gym was the nicest I’ve ever seen in a hotel, and it had waterfront views.

  13. 13.

    redshirt

    November 7, 2016 at 10:41 pm

    @Mnemosyne: Do you get paid per post or is there an aggregation?

  14. 14.

    Crashman06

    November 7, 2016 at 10:43 pm

    @redshirt: Really loving it, and although it’s a slow build, I’m really loving all the weirdness and mystery. I like how the park mirrors a video game. It’s not perfect but I think it’s really fun. Yesterday’s storyline with the brothel owner was great.

  15. 15.

    Mnemosyne

    November 7, 2016 at 10:44 pm

    @redshirt:

    You’re asking the wrong question. It should be “on the clock or off the clock”?

    For the record, I’m currently off the clock, but I really do love the movie.

    ETA: And, to be clear, the Giant Evil Corporation would probably term my on-the-clock activities here as “time theft.”

  16. 16.

    redshirt

    November 7, 2016 at 10:45 pm

    @Mnemosyne: LOL. You should hype the Marvel movies too, then, since they are Disney.

  17. 17.

    Omnes Omnibus

    November 7, 2016 at 10:45 pm

    @Mnemosyne: Yes.

    @efgoldman: The Trowel draws out the pain. Sadistic that way.

  18. 18.

    Adam L Silverman

    November 7, 2016 at 10:47 pm

    @redshirt: You should see the gym at the Palmer House in Chicago.

  19. 19.

    Mnemosyne

    November 7, 2016 at 10:47 pm

    @redshirt:

    Different division. Animation rules, live action drools.

  20. 20.

    Peale

    November 7, 2016 at 10:49 pm

    If the hatchling keeps its nerve it may just avoid detection

  21. 21.

    piratedan

    November 7, 2016 at 10:49 pm

    going to see these guys tomorrow:

    …

  22. 22.

    redshirt

    November 7, 2016 at 10:49 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: I’d have a hard time believing it’s better. This gym was HUGE. They even had a cross fit section. And attached to an indoor pool, and locker rooms with saunas and steam rooms.

    They also had iced water with lemons.

  23. 23.

    Helen

    November 7, 2016 at 10:49 pm

    @schrodinger’s cat: Packing is what I’ve been doing.

  24. 24.

    redshirt

    November 7, 2016 at 10:50 pm

    @Mnemosyne: What do you know of Marvel Studios from the inside? From what I can tell from the outside, Disney corporate seems to leave them entirely alone.

  25. 25.

    Adam L Silverman

    November 7, 2016 at 10:51 pm

    @redshirt: The Palmer House has all of that as well. When they did a refit of the hotel in the mid 00s they did built a huge new gym, health club, and spa.

  26. 26.

    schrodinger's cat

    November 7, 2016 at 10:52 pm

    @Helen: That’s what I was doing a week ago. I am beat. If I don’t see another box in my life, that will be too soon.

  27. 27.

    Mnemosyne

    November 7, 2016 at 10:52 pm

    @redshirt:

    Not a single thing. I’m not even allowed inside their building. They’re like Pixar, they keep totally to themselves.

  28. 28.

    Omnes Omnibus

    November 7, 2016 at 10:52 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: @redshirt: I have never judged hotels by their gyms. Their bars, however….

  29. 29.

    schrodinger's cat

    November 7, 2016 at 10:53 pm

    @efgoldman: I am not in Amherst. House is in good shape but my stuff is still mostly in boxes. I got 90% of the kitchen unpacked, so that’s progress.

  30. 30.

    redshirt

    November 7, 2016 at 10:54 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: Yeah, checked out the website. It’s close. Waterfront views, though. It’s right on Boston Harbor.

    FYI I am an expert on Boston hotels now. AMA.

  31. 31.

    trollhattan

    November 7, 2016 at 10:55 pm

    @Suzanne:
    Come Wednesday 2016 gets a lot better.

  32. 32.

    Adam L Silverman

    November 7, 2016 at 10:55 pm

    @redshirt: I’m good, but thanks.

  33. 33.

    redshirt

    November 7, 2016 at 10:56 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: I never check out the bars so I can’t vote on that. I caught a glimpse of the Intercontinental’s and it looked swank. The Sheraton’s bar in Boston has a giant chess set which looks fun.

  34. 34.

    different-church-lady

    November 7, 2016 at 10:56 pm

    are we all enjoying day three million of the 2016 election campaign?

    No, we are not. Thanks for asking. We can haz it be over now?

  35. 35.

    Chris

    November 7, 2016 at 10:57 pm

    What’s keeping you sane?

    I live in a house with two cats and a dog, but none of them are actually mine. So I’ve got all the benefits of being a pet owner and none of the responsibilities. That’ll do wonders for your sanity.

  36. 36.

    Chris

    November 7, 2016 at 10:59 pm

    @different-church-lady:

    We can haz it be over now?

    Sure! By this time tomorrow, we’ll be so absorbed by the 2020 presidential campaign we won’t even remember this one.

  37. 37.

    different-church-lady

    November 7, 2016 at 10:59 pm

    @TheMightyTrowel: Look, even when I was a kid I knew Bugs Bunny was teaching me more about how the world really worked than anything coming out of the Magic Kingdom, no matter how earnest.

  38. 38.

    Omnes Omnibus

    November 7, 2016 at 11:00 pm

    @redshirt: Never been into swank bars. Comfortable and welcoming. Like a good pub or a proper dive bar.

  39. 39.

    greennotGreen

    November 7, 2016 at 11:00 pm

    Hullabaloo posted a link to a King Crimson song. I had forgotten how much I loved them back in the day, so I’m going to saturate myself in their LSD-soaked music the rest of the evening. Each to his or her own drug.

    Which reminds me of one of the best pranks I saw during my first set of college years 1968-1972. The morning before a big concert some friends and acquaintances posted a large banner made out of sheets on what passed for a student center. It listed the time concert attendees should take their various recreational substances in order to achieve the maximum high for the show. At my conservative Southern school the banner didn’t stay up very long, but it was funny and a good reference.

  40. 40.

    redshirt

    November 7, 2016 at 11:00 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: Well, unbidden, if you’re ever in Boston check out the Hotel Commonwealth in Kenmore Square. Not a great gym, but adequate. However the rooms are spectacular. Due to charisma I’ve got to stay in various of their three room suites for my bargain Hotwire level price, and it’s just phenomenal. I don’t want to go out, or go to bed, or leave in the morning. Especially fun during baseball season.

  41. 41.

    Old Dan and Little Anne

    November 7, 2016 at 11:00 pm

    @redshirt: I had a crazy ass dream the other night in which the scenery was absolutely breathtaking. Most likely from Watching Westworld. Show is bananas. Love it.

  42. 42.

    NotMax

    November 7, 2016 at 11:00 pm

    There’s an election?

    Why doesn’t anyone ever tell me these things?

  43. 43.

    redshirt

    November 7, 2016 at 11:01 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: Do such things exist at fancy hotels?

  44. 44.

    different-church-lady

    November 7, 2016 at 11:04 pm

    @Chris: Absorbed. Like in the way The Blob absorbed victims?

  45. 45.

    different-church-lady

    November 7, 2016 at 11:04 pm

    @NotMax: It was an act of mercy.

  46. 46.

    different-church-lady

    November 7, 2016 at 11:05 pm

    @greennotGreen:

    Hullabaloo posted a link to a King Crimson song.

    Ooh, which one?

  47. 47.

    Lyrebird

    November 7, 2016 at 11:06 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: Thanks for the Joseph song. Must now share.

  48. 48.

    geg6

    November 7, 2016 at 11:06 pm

    Booze. That’s how I’m going to get through the next 24 hours. I’ve done my part up to this point with donating time and money as available, so there is nothing left to do but wait and sip wine. Compulsively.

  49. 49.

    Omnes Omnibus

    November 7, 2016 at 11:06 pm

    @redshirt: Some have multiple bars with different characters.

  50. 50.

    different-church-lady

    November 7, 2016 at 11:06 pm

    @Suzanne:

    Just so ready for 2016 to be over. This year has been unpleasant and expensive and I am angry at everything. I hate my life.

    If you want a distraction, you can come on over and hate mine for a while — I’m having a hard time keeping up.

  51. 51.

    Suzanne

    November 7, 2016 at 11:07 pm

    Question that may already have been answered: last election, Cole set up an election chat on some third-party site so we didn’t blow up the blog. Is he doing that again, or is the blog more robust since the last upgrade?

  52. 52.

    Suzanne

    November 7, 2016 at 11:09 pm

    @different-church-lady: Fuck, right? Do you need an ex-husband? I have one. I’m happy to give him away to a good home. Or a home. Or a street corner. Or a prison.

    Prison. That’s where I’d like to see him. Prison.

  53. 53.

    TheMightyTrowel

    November 7, 2016 at 11:10 pm

    @Mnemosyne: I get you’re being a bit tongue in cheek, but seriously, there are real questions about the way that Disney is using Polynesian culture that real honest to gosh Polynesians are discussing in scholarly and interesting terms (example). Moreover, Disney in particular really doesn’t get a pass because of the decades of racist and colonialist imagery and characters (not to mention storylines: hello Pocahontas) which have been a major part of their brand for decades. It’s not just Disney of course – DreamWorks’ The Hunt for El Dorado is pretty shocking when viewed through this lens, and piles of other kids programming also fits this mold.

    Pretty much anyone who studies history or archaeology will tell you that the past is incredibly powerful along numerous axes, including reinforcing present-day power dynamics through calls to and control of long-standing beliefs, values, practices and identities. The way Disney commodifies the past (yes, through the creation of fantasy worlds, but all of our pasts are fantasies – there is no past. the past is gone. we are telling stories in the present) is a powerful thing and one which plays with and neither undermines nor criticises deeply distressing narratives of colonialism, European dominance (either in fact by highlighting the powers and attractiveness of European people and culture, or implicitly by grounding its stories in a fundamentally Euro-centric world view and value system) and capitalist values.

    By the way, this lecture topic was suggested by some of this year’s students who became really interested in how the themes we’ve been studying play out in children’s fiction and films. They (and me) still love watching this sort of media; but watching uncritically because ‘it’s just a story’ lets Hollywood off the hook.

  54. 54.

    Petorado

    November 7, 2016 at 11:11 pm

    Sarah – One of your last music posts featuring Big Wild led to me discovering Chairlift’s “Cha-ching” and Kaytranada’s “You’re the one”.
    1/2

  55. 55.

    greennotGreen

    November 7, 2016 at 11:11 pm

    @different-church-lady: Epitaph, but it was the a cappella version, so I had to hunt around on You Tube (ended up on Vimeo) to find the original. I’m listening to “In the Court of the Crimson King” right now. Yes, I am old.

  56. 56.

    Petorado

    November 7, 2016 at 11:12 pm

    Those vids were followed by Rufus du Sol’s “You were right” and a bunch of tunes by Oh Wonder. Those earworms are keeping me sane and happy.
    2/2

  57. 57.

    Omnes Omnibus

    November 7, 2016 at 11:12 pm

    @Lyrebird: The band consists of three sisters. The women thing seems somehow apropos.

  58. 58.

    schrodinger's cat

    November 7, 2016 at 11:12 pm

    @TheMightyTrowel: What are your thoughts about Jungle book?

  59. 59.

    TheMightyTrowel

    November 7, 2016 at 11:13 pm

    @TheMightyTrowel: Two more links on Disney and Moana

  60. 60.

    Steeplejack (tablet)

    November 7, 2016 at 11:13 pm

    @Suzanne:

    I think the blog can handle it. Got a lot of traffic during the debates, and the front-pagers were good about putting up new threads as the previous ones got big.

  61. 61.

    different-church-lady

    November 7, 2016 at 11:14 pm

    @greennotGreen: ITCOTCK is not old — it’s timeless. And it makes you timeless too.

    Saw them a couple of autumns back — what an amazing legacy of music Fripp has created, and the new band mined it well.

  62. 62.

    jl

    November 7, 2016 at 11:14 pm

    Nope. A good Chuck D quote overrides:

    Chuck D
    ‘VOTING is like washing your a** in the morning. Adults HAVE that option to NOT do it. But they shouldnt be complaining something is STANK.’
    https://twitter.com/MrChuckD/status/795748919900680192

    I haven’t heard that anal (heh heh heh) ogy before. That his or is one of those wisecracks these damn kids say these days?

  63. 63.

    TheMightyTrowel

    November 7, 2016 at 11:16 pm

    @schrodinger’s cat: haven’t seen the new one yet, but my feelings about the cartoon can best be summed up with this photo.

  64. 64.

    Omnes Omnibus

    November 7, 2016 at 11:16 pm

    @different-church-lady: There is an entrepreneurial opportunity here for an ambitious person. Go get it.

  65. 65.

    schrodinger's cat

    November 7, 2016 at 11:18 pm

    @efgoldman: I did take several carloads over a course of a week to the new home before the moving van arrived so the house was some what functional when all the furniture and rest of the stuff arrived.

  66. 66.

    redshirt

    November 7, 2016 at 11:19 pm

    I’ve had a fantastic 2016. Hopefully that continues tomorrow night.

  67. 67.

    Face

    November 7, 2016 at 11:20 pm

    @Suzanne: So….it ended well, huh?

    24 hours before the 2020 campaign begins. I’m thinking about phone banking for Warren on Friday.

  68. 68.

    NotMax

    November 7, 2016 at 11:21 pm

    @greennotGreen

    Would have guessed 21st Century Schizoid Man.

  69. 69.

    Omnes Omnibus

    November 7, 2016 at 11:21 pm

    @redshirt: Bowie and Prince mean nothing to you?

  70. 70.

    greennotGreen

    November 7, 2016 at 11:22 pm

    @different-church-lady: Three degrees of Kevin Bacon here! My ex boyfriend, after we broke up, played for awhile with Adrian Belew who was a member of King Crimson. So close to greatness and yet so far…

  71. 71.

    greennotGreen

    November 7, 2016 at 11:24 pm

    @NotMax: Yes, I’ve just listened to that, too.

  72. 72.

    Mnemosyne

    November 7, 2016 at 11:24 pm

    @TheMightyTrowel:

    Well, I do love it when people become enraged about a film before they even see it.

    Having said that, not knowing who the members are of the Oceanic Story Trust, a group that was hand picked by Disney to shepherd the cultural content and merchandising, we can’t ask these Pacific Mouseketeers what the capital F they were thinking when they helped Disney strip mine our culture(s) for the sole purpose of making a profit.

    The author of that article will be able to check IMDb the day the movie opens, get each of the names of those people in the Oceanic Story Trust from the credits of the film, and personally call them up to curse them out, if she likes. However, I doubt that she will, because the movie she’s created in her head isn’t the movie I saw on Saturday. Oh, and she’ll probably be extra enraged when she sees they’re not just from Hawaii — they also included people from Fiji, Tahiti, New Zealand, Samoa, etc.

    Here is my question for you: when Disney makes films only about Europeans and European fairy tales, they get criticized. When they make a movie about Polynesia using Polynesian actors, Polynesian musicians, and consult with Polynesian storytellers, they get criticized. So what are they supposed to do, exactly? Is it really better for American companies like Disney to ignore the rest of the world and only make movies and TV shows about white people?

  73. 73.

    different-church-lady

    November 7, 2016 at 11:25 pm

    @greennotGreen: When? Which Ade band? MUST KNOW!!!!

  74. 74.

    redshirt

    November 7, 2016 at 11:26 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: In the overall scheme of things, celebrity deaths mean very little.

  75. 75.

    NotMax

    November 7, 2016 at 11:26 pm

    @efgoldman

    Heh. Not quite.

    On the other hand, know who won right now.

    See that Carrot Flop is not holding his election night shindig at one of his hotels, rather at a Hilton.

  76. 76.

    CarolDuhart2

    November 7, 2016 at 11:26 pm

    Looking forward to Christmas decorating, to having my floor completed, and getting another cat who will snuggle next to me. I miss that one so badly-having something living with affection that will crawl next to me in bed and sleep.

  77. 77.

    different-church-lady

    November 7, 2016 at 11:26 pm

    @Mnemosyne:

    So what are they supposed to do, exactly?

    MORE DONALD DUCK CARTOONS!!!

  78. 78.

    Suzanne

    November 7, 2016 at 11:27 pm

    @Face: My ex-husband, who has not paid me child support in a year due to being an unemployed, lazy drunk, freaking took Spawn the Elder to get her hair cut this weekend. He said, “Nothing radical”. She came back with a haircut that I would call a pixie cut if it wasn’t so fucking hideous. This is after we spent thousands of dollars for her orthodontia and her mental health treatment caused by trauma from the fallout of his more recent marriage (his ex-wife said that she never wanted to see his kids again), and he didn’t pay for a dime of it. When I told him to pay me, I asked if I was pregnant, because I’m “showing”. Never mind that he has no job and still shows up at my house with new tattoos and shoes and shit.

    The one thing I wanted was Christmas photos of my kids looking cute, and now she looks like a fucking Muppet.

  79. 79.

    different-church-lady

    November 7, 2016 at 11:27 pm

    @NotMax:

    See that Carrot Flop is not holding his election night shindig at one of his hotels

    Aren’t they all in receivership now?

  80. 80.

    greennotGreen

    November 7, 2016 at 11:28 pm

    Now I’ve drifted off to Adrian Belew. Next I’ll be pulling out my Eno CDs. I think that will be my music of tomorrow.

  81. 81.

    TheMightyTrowel

    November 7, 2016 at 11:28 pm

    @different-church-lady: Clearly not that

  82. 82.

    redshirt

    November 7, 2016 at 11:28 pm

    @different-church-lady: Scrooge McDuck cartoons for 1% relevance.

  83. 83.

    Omnes Omnibus

    November 7, 2016 at 11:28 pm

    @redshirt: Back to that, are you?

  84. 84.

    redshirt

    November 7, 2016 at 11:31 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: Back to what?

  85. 85.

    different-church-lady

    November 7, 2016 at 11:32 pm

    @Suzanne: OK, maybe I’ll help you hate yours instead…

  86. 86.

    Omnes Omnibus

    November 7, 2016 at 11:32 pm

    @Mnemosyne: Off the top of my head, I doubt that there is a single South Pacific culture (other than seriously good rugby). Odds are Disney ended up with a mishmash of cultural things.

  87. 87.

    Lyrebird

    November 7, 2016 at 11:32 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: Perfect. Will send it to my sister, too! She and I are both on the job market, both non-traditional professionals over 40, so galvanizing messages about not giving up are good.

  88. 88.

    Omnes Omnibus

    November 7, 2016 at 11:35 pm

    @redshirt: Don’t play the cowboy with me, Sonny Jim.

  89. 89.

    Sarah, Proud and Tall

    November 7, 2016 at 11:35 pm

    @Petorado:

    Kaytranada’s “You’re the one

    I like that one… thanks!

  90. 90.

    TheMightyTrowel

    November 7, 2016 at 11:36 pm

    @Mnemosyne: Accept that they’re making cultural properties which people will critique? I’m sorry, Mnem, I have the utmost respect for you as a commenter, but I think this might be too close to home for you. Are you genuinely making the argument that criticism – particularly criticism by non-western/non-white people and from scholars of cultural properties is so heinous that the producers of those things are being asked to take their balls and go home? Do you really think that Disney, of all the stuff we shout about on the internet, should get a pass on cultural criticism grounds because it’s fun and for kids? Why?

    As I said in previous posts, you can enjoy things and still watch them critically. One of the standout films in my film/fiction class is Apocalypto which many of my students love – I hate it, but I’m squeamish about violence – that doesn’t stop them from deconstructing the racist and colonialist narrative which animates the film and drives its plot. It certainly doesn’t stop them from reading Native American discussions of it which tack back and forth between ‘isn’t it awesome to see this sort of lush cinematography lavished on native people, languages and materials’ and ‘wow this is totally ethnocentric and kinda racist’.

    Shouldn’t we hold an even higher standard for the media we disseminate for children? Why does Disney get a pass on critical discussion of racist and colonialist narratives?

    (and also, for the record, i feel like i shouldn’t even have to say this to you Mnem because i truly do respect you as a commenter and I KNOW you’re sensitive to these things, but seriously, just because some members of a minority group agree with a particular representation of them and their culture in the media does not mean all other members of that (HIGHLY DIVERSE, MULTI-LINGUAL and MULTI-NATIONAL ethnic group are obligated to agree and allow that endorsement to abrogate all critical discussion)

    (I need to add here that (a) I’m white and (b) I’m American so I am not trying to put myself in the position of a Polynesian person, but I am trying to say that all voices should be heard and respected)

  91. 91.

    Mnemosyne

    November 7, 2016 at 11:38 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    The story takes place during the time of the wayfinders. By definition there was no “Maori culture” vs “Tahitian culture” because the islands were still being settled and the cultures had not separated from each other (to the extent they ever did). IOW, it takes place before the first Polynesians ever arrived in what are now the Hawaiian Islands, and she’s outraged that it’s not Hawaiian enough? It’s like complaining that the characters in Clan of the Cave Bear didn’t have French accents.

  92. 92.

    Face

    November 7, 2016 at 11:38 pm

    @Suzanne: Wow. Yikes. But the hair will grow back a bit before Xmas, so always time to re-do it. My brother once cut my hair a day before school pictures, and my mom almost had a heart attack. And almost killed him with curse words.

  93. 93.

    redshirt

    November 7, 2016 at 11:39 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: People die all the time. Sad, but true. Even celebrities.

  94. 94.

    Lyrebird

    November 7, 2016 at 11:41 pm

    @Mnemosyne: I dunno, I think it’s more complicated than this:

    Here is my question for you: when Disney makes films only about Europeans and European fairy tales, they get criticized. When they make a movie about Polynesia using Polynesian actors, Polynesian musicians, and consult with Polynesian storytellers, they get criticized. So what are they supposed to do, exactly? Is it really better for American companies like Disney to ignore the rest of the world and only make movies and TV shows about white people?

    Disney has made some changes that are quite impressive, e.g. making Brave. Their TV channel has started featuring shows that don’t make me ill. (Try to take a kid to the pediatrician w/o watching Disney Jr….) And Moana could be amazing, and yes there are culture critics who will never be satisfied by anything. As Tevye says, on the other hand… Poca freaking hontas was a travesty to anyone who knows some of the history there. Disney still pushes the unhealthy spindle-waist princess look (not part of the Trowel’s critique but it grates on my nerves).

    Again, I don’t know. Wishing you the best in your work though!

  95. 95.

    Omnes Omnibus

    November 7, 2016 at 11:41 pm

    @Mnemosyne: I am just going to point you at what TMT just said.

  96. 96.

    Omnes Omnibus

    November 7, 2016 at 11:44 pm

    @redshirt: If you see Bowie and Prince simply as celebrities, you miss a lot. They were people who added to our culture. Their deaths mean that they no longer can add to our culture. What TMZ says means fuck all.

  97. 97.

    TheMightyTrowel

    November 7, 2016 at 11:48 pm

    @Mnemosyne: Also that’s not entirely true – while modern Hawaiian/Tahitian/etc. identities weren’t around, even in the earliest phases of polynesian expansion we see considerable variety in material culture and ritual activity between regions in the pacific.

    This is actually one of the issues that Disney and other children’s media (and lots of pop culture aimed at adults too) makes use of: homogenising past people so that they aren’t distinguishable. While we can talk about the merits of setting Frozen in an ambiguously Scandiwegian setting, in terms of the depiction of non-European people this is a long-standing (literally since the european expansion out of europe) narrative tool which (through ignorance or intent) serves to diminish the creativity, uniqueness and wealth of non-western cultures. It allows racist ideas of European cultural superiority to flourish and dehumanises non-Europeans. As any of my students would tell you, Westerners writing about non-western worlds – and the directors and screenwriter of Moana are 3 white guys – need to be especially careful not to elide cultural specificities we aren’t aware of or primed to recognise.

    You want to know, fundamentally, what Disney can do to get less criticism? Stop letting white guys write and direct these stories.

  98. 98.

    jacy

    November 7, 2016 at 11:49 pm

    @Suzanne:

    Maybe we could chip in and buy an island to send our ex-husbands to. Preferably one filled with rabid wild pigs and dachshund-sized leeches.

  99. 99.

    Omnes Omnibus

    November 7, 2016 at 11:50 pm

    @TheMightyTrowel: I still think you need to address the rugby.

  100. 100.

    Mnemosyne

    November 7, 2016 at 11:50 pm

    @TheMightyTrowel:

    Are you genuinely making the argument that criticism – particularly criticism by non-western/non-white people and from scholars of cultural properties is so heinous that the producers of those things are being asked to take their balls and go home?

    That’s exactly what the author of the article you linked to is arguing: Disney should not have made Moana because doing so was exploitative by definition and no amount of consulting with people in Polynesia could ever mitigate that. In fact, she says that the people who did work with Disney on the film are a bunch of sell-outs who should be ashamed of themselves.

    Do you really think that Disney, of all the stuff we shout about on the internet, should get a pass on cultural criticism grounds because it’s fun and for kids?

    Not at all. But I would like people to actually watch the fucking film so they’re criticizing the actual film and not the assumptions they’ve formed about what must be in the film based on their preconceptions about Disney based on films from 50 years ago. Hint: Maui is not a comic sidekick in the film, and that’s just one of the things she states as a fact that she gets completely wrong.

    I will be happy to discuss the cultural implications of the film once it’s actually been released and people can discuss the content of it, not the trailers and the merchandising.

    Reading that article was very frustrating because she makes claims about what she thinks is in the film but she got at least half of it factually wrong. How am I supposed to argue against someone who’s angry about what she assumes is in the film when it isn’t actually there? It’s like trying to talk to someone who’s angry about Hillary’s emails.

  101. 101.

    Lyrebird

    November 7, 2016 at 11:51 pm

    @TheMightyTrowel: Oh phooey, you said EVerything so much better than I did. AND you’re getting your grading done. Jealous jealous. For your students or for your own sanity, I recommend getting access to some seasons of the Backyardigans. The way they re-do storylines like Tarzan, the Odyssey, shoot-outs in the Wild West, and ninjas vs samurais in a kid-appropriate and reverse-appropriating way cracks me up. Maybe they don’t get as far as Hamilton does, but having these very diverse child actors voice tubby animals as Tarzans, sirens, and so forth is refreshing. The animation is not as crisp as what you’ll get on Disney, Jr., but thank heaven it doesn’t use the same facial-expression algorithms. My nitpicking about animation style aside, the shows are worth checking out.

  102. 102.

    TheMightyTrowel

    November 7, 2016 at 11:53 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: You mean how Chicago magic let Ireland beat the Kiwis for the first time ever WTF?

  103. 103.

    Omnes Omnibus

    November 7, 2016 at 11:55 pm

    @Mnemosyne: You probably shouldn’t get into a fight with an expert on the topic. OTOH, it’s never stopped you fighting with lawyers. You do notice that we all give you deference on film issues.

  104. 104.

    different-church-lady

    November 7, 2016 at 11:58 pm

    Can we go back to celebrating Brian Eno now?

  105. 105.

    Omnes Omnibus

    November 7, 2016 at 11:58 pm

    @TheMightyTrowel: Anything that beats the All Blacks. OTOH, I back the Eagles and when they are eliminated; I back France.

  106. 106.

    redshirt

    November 8, 2016 at 12:00 am

    @Omnes Omnibus: Meh. They weren’t that relevant any more in terms of cultural impact, and of course what they already did will last a long time. People die, Omnes. Sorry if this harsh truth ruins your buzz.

  107. 107.

    TheMightyTrowel

    November 8, 2016 at 12:02 am

    @Omnes Omnibus: ALLEZ LES BLEUS

  108. 108.

    Omnes Omnibus

    November 8, 2016 at 12:04 am

    @redshirt: May I ask a personal question? Are you on the spectrum? Or are you just kind of an asshole?

  109. 109.

    redshirt

    November 8, 2016 at 12:07 am

    @Omnes Omnibus: LOL. I could ask the same of you.

  110. 110.

    Omnes Omnibus

    November 8, 2016 at 12:07 am

    @TheMightyTrowel: Damn straight!

  111. 111.

    Petorado

    November 8, 2016 at 12:09 am

    @Sarah, Proud and Tall: Kidnap Kid’s “Brokenhearted” (no relation to tomorrow’s election results) is also an amazing tune.

  112. 112.

    Mnemosyne

    November 8, 2016 at 12:12 am

    @TheMightyTrowel:

    As any of my students would tell you, Westerners writing about non-western worlds – and the directors and screenwriter of Moana are 3 white guys – need to be especially careful not to elide cultural specificities we aren’t aware of or primed to recognise.

    So talking to and discussing your story with people from that culture is never good enough? Only people from a specific culture or background can write stories with characters from that culture or background?

    Do me a favor: when you see the film, look at the names of the people listed under Story. Those are the employees who fleshed out the story so the screenwriter could write the dialogue. They are not all white. At this point, I’m pretty sure they’re even not majority white. The monolithically white Disney Studio that you’re envisioning doesn’t exist anymore. Those names that go by at the end of the credits are the future leadership of the Studio when Ron and John retire.

    Again: if artists are only going to be allowed to make art about their own personal experiences within their own personal ethnic group, the world is going to be very much poorer. The director of the short film playing in front of Moana is Japanese-American, but his film is not about that experience. Should the studio heads have told him he couldn’t make the story he wanted to because it didn’t fit his ethnic group?

  113. 113.

    Omnes Omnibus

    November 8, 2016 at 12:12 am

    @redshirt: No, my issues are different. I just can be an asshole at times. I am asking because I wonder and don’t want be an asshole to you if you are not intending to be an asshole as well.

  114. 114.

    Suzanne

    November 8, 2016 at 12:16 am

    @jacy: And syphllis. I want them all to go crazy.

  115. 115.

    different-church-lady

    November 8, 2016 at 12:17 am

    You’re on the spectrum! YOU’RE on the spectrum! The whole FORUM is on the spectrum!!!

  116. 116.

    Major Major Major Major

    November 8, 2016 at 12:17 am

    i thought this was the no politics thread, not the everybody be an asshole thread.

  117. 117.

    redshirt

    November 8, 2016 at 12:18 am

    @Omnes Omnibus: Not intending to be an asshole in this case! All I said to begin was 2016 was a great year for me. You took it to other places.

  118. 118.

    redshirt

    November 8, 2016 at 12:20 am

    @different-church-lady: LOL. My god, it’s full of stars!

  119. 119.

    Mnemosyne

    November 8, 2016 at 12:20 am

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    We are fighting about film right now. I think people need to actually see the film before they decide it’s all a gigantic act of cultural appropriation by a bunch of white guys. I am also frustrated on behalf of my non-white coworkers whose hard work on the film is being handwaved away as, Well, since the co-directors are white, that’s all we need to know. That may be how live action works, but it’s not how animation works.

    I also get very frustrated by declarations that artists are only allowed to write about their own ethnic groups. I guess I have to drop the half-black character in my historical novel since I’m white and therefore have no business trying to include a mixed-race character in my book.

  120. 120.

    Major Major Major Major

    November 8, 2016 at 12:20 am

    @Mnemosyne:

    So talking to and discussing your story with people from that culture is never good enough? Only people from a specific culture or background can write stories with characters from that culture or background?

    There are respected cultural critics who say this. I think they’re full of shit, but there are respected cultural critics who say this.

  121. 121.

    different-church-lady

    November 8, 2016 at 12:24 am

    @Major Major Major Major: No, this is Getting Hit Over the Head Lessons.

  122. 122.

    Major Major Major Major

    November 8, 2016 at 12:25 am

    @different-church-lady: I thought this was arguments.

  123. 123.

    Jerzy Russian

    November 8, 2016 at 12:26 am

    @Major Major Major Major: Shut your festering gob, you tit!

  124. 124.

    Mnemosyne

    November 8, 2016 at 12:26 am

    @Major Major Major Major:

    I agree that those respected cultural critics are full of shit. I understand the bad history that they’re coming from, but I think there’s a difference between cultural appropriation and writing about another culture. They are not automatically synonymous.

  125. 125.

    Major Major Major Major

    November 8, 2016 at 12:27 am

    @Jerzy Russian: I must have wandered into abuse.

  126. 126.

    Omnes Omnibus

    November 8, 2016 at 12:31 am

    @Mnemosyne: You got all promotional about a movie that we can’t see yet. You made claims about it. People who know about the region have expressed concerns. Should I ignore them?

  127. 127.

    redshirt

    November 8, 2016 at 12:32 am

    @Mnemosyne: I agree with your general point here, but also with the critique; it’s good to maintain a healthy tension between the two.

  128. 128.

    Mnemosyne

    November 8, 2016 at 12:36 am

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    You don’t have to ignore them, but you should probably take their claims about the specific content of the film with a grain of salt until it’s in general release.

    I’m sure there will be things in there that will make everyone cringe in retrospect because they got missed, but the writer of that specific article had enough factual errors about the content of the film that it annoyed me.

  129. 129.

    greennotGreen

    November 8, 2016 at 12:37 am

    @different-church-lady: Yes. I’m now listening to Another Green World.

  130. 130.

    Omnes Omnibus

    November 8, 2016 at 12:40 am

    @Mnemosyne: Disney has a history. Does this movie belie that history?

  131. 131.

    different-church-lady

    November 8, 2016 at 12:41 am

    @greennotGreen: Completely under-recognized masterpiece.

  132. 132.

    Mnemosyne

    November 8, 2016 at 12:41 am

    @redshirt:

    The critique was based in part on factual errors and incorrect assumptions. I’m sure there is a valid critique to be made of the film and there is an interesting discussion to be had about the tension between making popular culture more inclusive and cultural appropriation, but I honestly do not think that restricting what people are allowed to write about based on their race is the way to do it. For one thing, it means that Big Hero 6 should not have been made, because it was about minority characters but written and directed by white guys.

  133. 133.

    Mnemosyne

    November 8, 2016 at 12:48 am

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    History is not prophecy, and it’s not 1967 (or even 1997) anymore.

    I would say that The Princess and the Frog, Big Hero 6 and Moana are all good-faith attempts to tell more inclusive stories using a more diverse group of filmmakers (again, in animation you can’t just look at the directors and screenwriter to decide about diversity). We can argue about how successful or unsuccessful those efforts to break with past history are, but I get frustrated when people act like those efforts don’t even exist.

    (I’m leaving out Zootopia because it’s talking animals but, fuck me, Disney did an allegory about racism and intersectionality this year that made a billion dollars worldwide and people still assume that Moana is going to be as culturally disrespectful as the 50 year old The Jungle Book was?)

  134. 134.

    different-church-lady

    November 8, 2016 at 12:54 am

    @different-church-lady: Okay. a little more recognized than I thought…

  135. 135.

    NotMax

    November 8, 2016 at 12:56 am

    @Mnemosyne

    How do you feel about Song of the South and its enduring amusement park attraction, Splash Mountain?

    (ducks)

  136. 136.

    redshirt

    November 8, 2016 at 1:04 am

    @Mnemosyne: The critique in general. It’s less about a specific film and more about white men in positions of power. Why not more women writers and directors? Why not more POC? Etc. That’s a legit critique in general.

  137. 137.

    Mnemosyne

    November 8, 2016 at 1:27 am

    @NotMax:

    AFAIK, all of the objections to the film are centered on the live action segments, but it’s not like it’s available to watch in the US anyway.

    @redshirt:

    Disney’s first female feature animation director won an Oscar. Moana is filled with the names of female artists in story and animation, including lead animators. It’s an industry-wide problem that is being worked on, but there are lots of women working as artists, writers, and directors at the animation studio and they are working their way up through the ranks even as we speak.

    ETA: The head of the story department on Moana is Mexican-American.

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