I think the thing that gets me is that I knew full well that Trump would take WV- I’d been saying for a year he would take WV by 30 points, and the margin turned out to be bigger. What I don’t understand is how people were so wrong about other states. Did your state vote the way you thought it would?
Second, I don’t understand how future campaigns will work. Truth and facts and basic common decency clearly do not matter. Policy positions clearly do not matter. It honestly appears that the only things that matter are jingoism, race, and identity.
Third, I hear a lot of “we need to stay strong and fight,” and we do, but at the same time, we need to sit back and reassess. The Democratic party is in shambles. I’m going to occupy myself with the new house and my daily life, and see where we go from here. Acting out now would just be pointless and accomplish nothing.
On the other hand, I did give 50 bucks to Planned Parenthood this morning.
Everything just feels so upside down right now.
Major Major Major Major
I don’t know if it’s true that the Democratic Party is in shambles any more than the Republican Party is in shambles. If things had gone as polled we would be saying the Republican Party is in shambles. Most likely they’re both shot to shit, to be honest.
bluehill
Play with your pets. Don’t read Sullivan.
Mikefromarlington
Our goal should be to make sure Trump is a one term president and hope the supremes live another 4 years.
Trentrunner
We are through the looking-glass, people.
Pay attention to the people most at-risk from Trump’s victory.
I’ll worry later about the Dem post-mortem. Let’s keep people safe and reach out to them.
craigie
Yes. Can California become its own country now?
Cain
As shaitan said in the wheel of time, “Let the Lord of Chaos Rule”. We lost a battle, but the war continues, and it looks like we will have to deal with it for another couple of generations. But we got screwed and we need to reflect on what it was that did us in. The fact that Hillary couldn’t win against Trump is troubling. Looking at other sources, it seems that people really really wanted an anti-establishment pick… all the democrats have to offer is establishment picks.. well Bernie seemed to have done well, not sure if he would have beaten Trump.
I guess this is over for Hillary, having lost twice now.
Tim C.
I chose the ACLU, but yeah… helps to do something positive.
oldster
I agree.
Part of what is disorienting is how many theories were undermined at once: theories about polling, mobilization, ground game, data-mining, coalition-building, and so on and so forth.
Though as MMMM says, if the numbers had been slightly different, we’d be having a very different conversation.
But we thought we had a margin to cover slight differences!
Central Planning
@Mikefromarlington: Hope is not a strategy.
Tim C.
@craigie: Can Oregon come and join too?
Cain
Oregon voted the way we thought it would.
Major Major Major Major
@oldster: we had a margin to cover up to a 2.5-point difference comfortably. There was a 4-point difference.
@Central Planning: obstruction is.
Served
I think, in general, it’s institutions that are truly fucked. No one trusts the media, facts are whatever people feel like that day, EMAILS, neither party’s establishment has a fucking clue, and we’re in (hopefully) the worst part of a massive demographic and generational upheaval.
Cain
@oldster: the other thing is that Trump had no ground game to speak of. Hillary was everywhere. We thought Trump was disorganized.. He beat out everything. I’m flabbergasted by this. In any case, Trump is giong to be focused on the Republicans and the press I reckon. They have all 3 branches of government now more or less.
Cacti
Washington voted for the good guys and I’m damn glad I left Arizona 2-years ago.
Barbara
Yes, blue as expected but closer than polled. Our team didn’t show up, and I am not pointing fingers just stating a fact. Starting work soon to keep gov blue and try to turn one state chamber. WV must be tough but I won’t give up here in Virginia.
jharp
I live in central Indiana and my county went to Trump by nearly a 3 to 1 margin.
Jesus Fucking Christ. And I have live amongst these fucking dirtbags.
SenyorDave
@craigie: @craigie: Yes. Can California become its own country now?
I’m in Maryland, can we join you, we’ll have both coasts covered.
Irony Abounds
Quite simply about all we can do is wait until the Republicans turn the entire US into Kansas and ruin the economy. Of course, we also have to hope the Dems aren’t stupid enough to pick another lousy candidate. As infinitely awful a person as Trump is, the bigger problem is that the Republicans with full control of all three branches of government are going to be able push their dream agenda of huge tax cuts that will bankrupt the government, and then they will destroy the safety net in the name of fiscal sanity. And once Roe v Wade is gone, and yes, it is on life support now that the Repubs get to name Scalia’s successor as well as the likely 1 or 2 additional openings, the abortion question will be resolved by a combination of state legislation and some federal legislation. Ergo, legal abortions will be rare and difficult to come by. Call me pessimistic, but this really could be a true turning point for the country, and not in a good way.
Villago Delenda Est
White evangelicals = fascists. Everything the “greatest generation” fought for has been betrayed by their children and grandchildren.
My state voted the way it was supposed to.
Cain
Apparently, Hillary was so distraught yesterday, she couldn’t come out and speak to her supporters. It must fucking suck to lose to that asshole. I know how I feel, I can’t imagine what she’s feeling. Never mind that the party will turn against her and the establishment for fucking it up.
guachi
What now?
America showed that it’s a horrible country filled with people who care nothing for facts.
A country filled with hate.
Now? I give up. I’m going to set a meeting with my CO and see if there is any way I can get out of the military. America is not a country I can serve.
skerry
Maryland, my Maryland went for Clinton, bigly.
gbbalto
Maryland went 60.5% D versus 61+% each time for Obama. 4.2% for Johnson plus Stein.
Kurzleg
This is starting to look pretty insightful. I happen to have gone to the same high school as Cramer. She’s made a case that rings true to me, though it may not be applicable nation-wide. But it’s at least a piece of the puzzle.
ETA: I think Cramer’s approach has the beginnings of figuring out how future elections can work. Trump didn’t talk policy or facts but did hit the points that resonated with them. There’s a racial component, no doubt, but that component may not be the most critical one.
Major Major Major Major
@jharp: at least you finally got rid of your awful awful governo–oh, shit.
Peter
I think one of the most important things we can do is push the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact, and get rid of the goddamned electoral college so this can’t happen AGAIN. It doesn’t require a constitutional amendment, it doesn’t require any sign-on from the President, it operates purely at a state level, and it’s a good ways of the way to its target. If it was already in effect, we’d be talking about President Clinton now.
Eric U.
WV is far easier to guess than some other states. I think they will probably pay more too. Pennsyltucky will also be badly affected.
Barbara
@Cain: If you think about it, every Dem president since 1976 has been of the outsider type even if that assessment is somewhat exaggerated. Could be a good place to start the PM.
Cain
@Irony Abounds:
I doubt the republicans will overturn roe vs wade, they need it to keep the divisions going. There are literally people out there who only vote because of the abortion issue, and the party would lose those people. Sadly, elections have consequences. It was our race to win and we couldn’t do it against a small minded racist asshole. We lost.
cokane
some interesting stuff im going repost here. turnout was way down for dems, seems like in the cities the worst
an interesting case study in michigan:
in Washetenaw county (University of Michigan): 122k votes Clinton, 121k votes Obama
Wayne Country (Detroit): 500k votes Clinton, 590k votes Obama
So, at least in MI it appears that minority dropoff may have been the bigger issue than youth dropoff
JMG
She feels she let the country down. That’s a pretty traumatic feeling. To a certain extent, we Democrats can plan and try to reach out to more voters (especially the ones on our side who didn’t show up yesterday), but John is right. For the present, waiting is all we can do. Either the voters will rebel against the radical deconstruction of our government planned by the Republicans or they won’t. Until that dynamic, there’s little really to be done.
Mary G
Polls had Hillary by 10 here in California, and she won by 21, so…#Calexit is trending.
Barbara
@Eric U.: All those unemployed laborers who have successfully applied for SSDI better think about the future. My brother wanted to be one of those people but he could not persuade them.
enplaned
@Major Major Major Major: Difference is the GOP controls state houses, controls governorships — each far more than the Ds — and that would be true if it had lost yesterday.
Ds are not doing a good job with the farm teams, at all.
EZSmirkzz
So how’s your ass anyway John?
Those things matter to us brother, we just have to make more of us.
Easy peasy.
Local Observer
New York did its thing, but the vote totals hide the fundamental differences between NYC metro and the rest of the state (outside of a few other urban areas). Central New York is as Trump as any other rural area and the deplorables were in full gloat this morning.
Irony Abounds
@Peter: I would love for that to pass, but it will never be passed by Republican states, so that is just another waste of time and effort.
enplaned
@Barbara: And this election, more than most, the nominee needed to be an outsider — and we had the ultimate insider.
ArchTeryx
Just as a follow-on, I really do appreciate the voices of support I heard. I know I’m hardly alone in my boat, but it’s nonetheless sprung a leak and is sinking fast. We may go down together, but we’ll assuredly drown separately.
I’ve put out a couple of letters to close friends and family I know in Canada and France. One of them, I’m devoutly hoping, will be able to legally take me in if I claim medical asylum from a Trump regime. If not, well. I know what my backup plan is. I won’t go out the way the haters want.
D58826
@Mikefromarlington:
Sorry to rain on that parade but the open seat will be fill by he whop will nolt be named and you will have a 5-4 conservative tilt.
And I am woefully tired of hearing about how bad a candidate Hillary was because of her ‘baggage’. If being a self professed serial sexual predator isn’t baggage than the word has lost all meaning.
Cain
@JMG: I can’t see she could have done any better. She just wasn’t the candidate people wanted. The fact that cokane posted some numbers where the Dems weren’t coming to the polls is an indication that her team, adnd the democratic party were not making a connection with voters in the rust belt. That said, I guess some hubris on our part as well, I mean Trump is nothing we would imagine a major candidate would be like. Yet, despite all expectations, he won and that’s on all of us. We’ll have to wait and see what is going to happen in the next 4 years. I hope it doesn’t turn into a disaster.
Villago Delenda Est
@Kurzleg: From that article: “They (Milwaukee and Madison) think that we (rural Wisconsinites) are redneck racists”.
Well, when you walk like a duck and talk like a duck, and all your resentments are that brown and blah people get some of the breaks (not all of them…no walking while blah!) you do, then you must be a duck.
brendancalling
both parties, I would argue, are shot to shit.
My day looks like this. In about 2 hours I head down to my broker (Schwab) for a workshop called “Behavioral Finance: How Emotions Impact Financial Decisions”. Then after that, I get to participate in a second Schwab-sponosred event, “Schwab Live: Conversations featuring Nate Silver”, affter which I am invited to “join trading-focused sessions including a Q&A panel on trading in the current market and the impact of the election.”
So I guess my question is do I get stoned BEFORE or AFTER these depressing events?
Oh and you folks betting the GOP won’t try to overturn roe because they need those single-issue voters? Buy stock in coat hangers, because we’re gonna turn into El Salvador when it comes to women’s rights.
Irony Abounds
@Cain: I don’t think they will have a choice. Trump will pick conservative justices, who will overturn Roe v Wade, and then the state legislatures will go to town. There won’t be an outright ban on abortions at the federal level, but will be restrictions imposed such as no abortions after 20 weeks.
Waldo
This atheist is praying for divine intervention.
PeakVT
What now? State-level races in 2018 and 2020. All the effort needs to go to those.
kindness
I work for Kaiser out here in California. I’m in Regional so we look at big picture. My bosses are wondering how we are going to handle having 2 – 3 million members cut from our rolls. I’m not worried about my job, mind you. I’m worried about my country.
And really, I see a huge economic crash coming. There is no way it doesn’t happen. Clinton bailed out Bush41. Obama bailed out Bush43. I sure hope the bankers and the Finance lords know full and well that when Democrats are asked to bail their sorry asses out after the clusterfuck that will be Trump that they understand their asses will be left out on the sidewalk this next time. Careful what you wish for and all that.
Skippy-san
@Trentrunner: This is very true. A lot of us are going to have to into hiding because taking his cue from Lee Kwan Yew he will go after an independent press using the libel laws.
Dave in Dallas
The only bright spot I can see is that those f*ckers now own it. All. We’ll see how those FL retirees feel when Social Security and Medicare get cut, and how those white suburban moms feel when they or their husband loses their job, and how those rural folk feel when not a damn thing changes for them. And how those “working class whites” feel when, if a miracle occurs and their jobs do get moved back here, nobody buys their shit because the economy just tanked.
My wife and I just cancelled all holiday travel. No gifts. Cable is cancelled as is the landline. Equipment purchases for my wife’s business on indefinite hold. Stocks transferred to bonds. I suspect there are about 10 million or so other families doing the same thing today. Holiday sales will tank. Republicans broke it. They own it.
Cain
@enplaned: You’ve been reading reddit I see. :-)
Betty Cracker
No, my state didn’t vote like I thought it would. I thought it would be close but Clinton would win. Then I thought she’d hold Ohio. Then Pennsylvania. Then Wisconsin. Well, y’all saw it too. I was utterly wrong about everything. And I am deeply ashamed to be an American.
We’ll have to figure out a way forward. But not this day.
Villago Delenda Est
@guachi: I share your feeling. The greatest generation sacrificed, it seems, for nothing. Their children and grandchildren have betrayed their fight against fascism. It’s now on our shores, in power, and they are going to turn this entire fucking country into Kansas.
Big Ole Hound
I think the oft repeated phrase “crooked Hillary” had a lot of effect on voters. She and Bill walked the line on the Clinton Foundation start-up and influence rule book and it came back to haunt them among the many of the non-thinking type voters who do not understand those rules. Trump not releasing his tax info was a stoke of genius that played to the same audience in that it could not be attacked by “powers that be”. Now we live with their not understanding.
Chris
I also don’t know “what now.” Quite simply, I can’t see a silver lining. The Repubs are about to go all-out on vote suppression, and with Trump promising to go after his political opponents and the security state being behind Trump to the extent that it is (cops and FBI), that effect is going to be even worse than it would otherwise be. The usual post-election “welp, let’s take a month off, clear our minds, and then come back at this again next time” – I’m not even sure that applies anymore.
And of course, expect the New Gilded Age to go into overdrive in the meantime. More safety net shredding.
Irony Abounds
@D58826: Racists, sexists, indeed most Republicans don’t give a shit about baggage, they just want to win. Turnout, or lack of it, was a killer in Wisconsin and likely Michigan and Pennsylvania.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Paul Ruan was just on my muted TV talking about Trump’s mandate
That’s our hope. That they will overreach wrt to things like abortion and Social Security and gay rights (thought I think they’re savvy enough to tamp that down), and Trump will be massively unpopular and we can use that to build up the party again. Trouble is, a lot of people’s lives are gonna get very, very bad before that can happen, and a lot of those people will blame “both parties” and “Washington”, and the usual suspects.
Howard Appel
America committed suicide last night. I don’t think it is possible to over-estimate the damage that the New American Nazi Party, aka, the Congress, the Trump Administration and the new SCOTUS, will do to America and the world. I have never been a chicken little – the sky is falling type, until now. I mourn the passing of a great democracy.
Repatriated
@enplaned: one problem with an outsider candidate: they’d have been running against the same people who the GOP candidate did: Democrats. I’m not sure how that succeeds either.
Hal
Can Michelle and Barack spend the next two years organizing and trying to GOTV for the mid term? I realize they may wan to just say fuck it and go back to Chicago, or Hawaii, or hand out in Washington, but damn, this country needs them right now.
Also, people on Facebook seem awfully quiet this morning. I expected an all out fuck yeah America/Trump! Instead it’s what I said in the thread below, about coming together and supporting this new President elect and not being mean (oh the irony). It’s like people are already embarrassed by their vote. I know Trump has obvious support, but I really wonder if a few people who just couldn’t bring themselves to support Hillary Clinton assumed she would win, so why not?
In any other election, I would have said, oh well, it’s done. Let’s see what happens. But this is Trump, and we know what will happen. I refuse to normalize this garbage truck of a human beings hatred.
cokane
Just did a comparison with Dane County (U Wisconsin) and Milwaukee and the pattern is the same.
LurkerExtraordinaire
@jharp: I’m thinking of making a Facebook group (invitation only) that connects people to people willing to help in safer places: places where LGBT, POC, women, religious minorities, etc. are safer. That way, when things get worse (as they surely will), people will know who they can turn to for help. Kinda like PantSuit Nation for the oppressed.
Anyone have any thoughts?
ALurkSupreme
Here in Madison (Dane County), the vote was 71%-23% for Clinton. The rest of Wississippi or whatever dumb portmanteau one might favor, not so much.
Corner Stone
Everything Trump touches turns to shit. The Democratic Party brushed up against his orbit and it has turned to shit as a result. Now he gets his short fingered paws on the country and so we now get to turn to shit.
White people have set this country back 30 or more years. The damage the GOP will do to voting rights and structures of power in just two short years, much less the devastating Senate losses we will see in 2018, mean the hatred and racism will be further enshrined.
brendancalling
@kindness: “I sure hope the bankers and the Finance lords know full and well that when Democrats are asked to bail their sorry asses out after the clusterfuck that will be Trump that they understand their asses will be left out on the sidewalk this next time.”
Why on EARTH would the bankers and finance lords think that? The Democrats will indeed bail them out. It’s what we do: we clean up the mess the GOP leaves behind and then we take the blame for it as well.
Steve in the ATL
Have a noon meeting. At least one participant is a hardcore Hillary hater. Wondering how much I can drink beforehand without being too obvious.
And welcome new posters I never saw before last night. Thanks for showing up after the fact to tell us why we aren’t pure enough.
Gelfling545
I’m in NY. We did better than I expected actually.
Kurzleg
@Villago Delenda Est: Fine, but that only gets us so far. The fundamental issue is that these folks don’t think they’re getting what they deserve, and they could be right. How do we as Democrats validate this aspect of their perspective but give them an alternative they might embrace? As I’ve read excerpts from Cramer’s book, she points out that many of the counties in which these folks live actually went for Obama in 2008. What does that tell you? Again, may not be valid nation-wide, but at least in WI and possibly the MW, it’s not entirely cut and dried.
Punchy
I just went thru a mental list of everything SCOTUS-related that’s about to bigly change:
1) R v. Wade is toast
2) Gay marriage is gone-zo
3) “Religious exceptions to bigotry” is about to go nationwide
4) Any remaining semblance of the VRA is also toast
5) Voter suppression (passports only?) on a huge scale will be OK’d
And Obamacare is gone, I’m guessing so is the EPA and maybe even the DoEducation. And fiscally, it’s the KS Experiment writ large. This wont be the country we recognize in 4 years.
The Dangerman
@brendancalling:
I agree; this isn’t all wine and roses for the Right (mostly wine and roses, just not completely). What happens to the NeverTrumpers? They tore Trump all sorts of new assholes so I don’t see them being welcome in their own Party for a while, if ever.
And I don’t need to say anything about the trainwreck that is the Left. The Party apparatus had one job and that was to find a way to win against a thoroughly unqualified candidate.
Major Major Major Major
@kindness: I’m in tech (if I want to be, right now I’m at a Silicon Valley think tank) and we might end up being the one bright spot. Although I guess steel, weapons, and drugs are trading well today.
lamh36
posted late in last thread but posting again.
Can any of you imagine how it feels to be around people who you know have voted for that bigot?
The same folks who have looked at my two nieces and talked about how cute they were and feeling that underneath all that they are perfectly fine smiling in my fuqn face while at home they are just happy as rain with the bullshit racism they came from him?
Smh…it’s damn hard. i honestly don’t want to even look at these people. I most certainly will no longer be sharing my nieces with any of them ever again…
I am struggling to keep off my resting bitch face right now and keeping from outright scowling at people today
if not for my trip this past weekend i would have def called into work
cokane
However, I did a comparison in Florida, between Alachua County (U. Florida) and Miami-Dade county, and Clinton does just as well as Obama in both. So maybe the largest Democratic demographic dropoff was black voters, not young voters and not latinos.
Chris
@Served:
It’s not just that people don’t trust the media: it’s that most people don’t even know what to distrust the media for. Most Americans still believe that if there’s any bias in the MSM, it’s in a liberal direction.
And that’s a huge problem if you want to get the conversation back to any kind of reality, because it means people don’t even know in which direction to compensate.
bluehill
Repost from below –
A few disconnected thoughts through the haze:
1. The markets have recovered a lot after the steep selloff last night. The dow is down 70 (actually up 140 now) or so, which is a relatively mild down day and a lot better than down 800. So at least right now, the markets aren’t predicting another recession. In some ways probably a relief rally from election uncertainty and concern about what Trump is going to do hasn’t sunk in yet. Same thing happened after Brexit and the markets actually went higher. If there is a good and bad about globalization, may be one good is that regional problems are shared globally to varying degrees and that can act as an additional buffer (trying my best here).
2. I have wondered what would cause Chaffetz and some of the other repubs to return to Trump after disavowing him when the polls at that time showed that Clinton would likely win. I wonder if Bannon et al shared win them their plans to turnout the white vote or their internal polling.
3. I characterized this election to my friends as a potential revolution but one at the ballot box. As bad as it I think it’s preferable to a real one. Doesn’t mean it can’t get worse, but we do have a system of checks and balances which should hopefully allow for a cooling off period.
Singing Truth to Power
I was shocked at how Wisconsin voted. This morning I am clinging to this from the Margaret and Helen blog:
Our Democracy is stronger than one man and one election. This grand experiment we call the United States has not failed. It has just begun.
Today we heal.
Tomorrow we act.
2018 we correct.
2020 we redeem.
We broke it and now we must fix it. The world is counting on us. I mean it. Really.
AliceBlue
@Cain:
I have to imagine that Romney and McCain were lying awake last night thinking “I lost but this asshole won? WTF!”
rikyrah
Honestly Cole, I don’t know. I read a lot of historical fiction, and I’ve always been interested in the post-Civil War depictions for Black people. Newly freed, trying to find their way. Reading about how they are trying to deal with the upcoming end of Reconstruction, and knowing, from my end, what that will mean to our people.
I feel that way this morning. Rev. Barber has a speech called the Third Reconstruction, and he was absolutely right. Everything my parent’s generation fought for is about to go up in smoke, and it’s hard, knowing that you have to start all over and begin to fight for things that your elders thought they had given the blood for.
Because White folks wanna be White and cling to White Supremacy.
sigh.
Peter
@Irony Abounds: You don’t need it to be passed by red states. Assuming that the states where it’s currently in legislative session pass, that brings the total up to 201 committed electoral votes. Throw in Oregon, Nevada, New Mexico, Colorado, Wisconsin, Connecticut, New Hampshire, Maine, Minnesota, and Virginia, and the electoral college is over.
Some of these might have Republican state governments at the moment, but they’re certainly not systemically hostile. We should push the measure in as many statehouses as we can, and drive the total closer to 270 so that when and if the others flip, we can drive a stake through the EX’s heart.
cleek
NC was close – a ~170K difference, just as everyone thought it would be.
Richard Burr (R-Senate) got more votes than Trump did. so did the Republican NC Treasurer (!).
but we elected a Dem governor and a Dem Atty Gen.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I harbor high hopes for Obama as a shadow president, but I have no idea what that looks like, how it works. It’s my own Underpants Gnome theory of politics, but I admit that’s what it is.
Ajabu
I’m done. I just have to figure out how to get back to the Caribbean with no job prospects there. (Hard to get employment from 3000 miles away.) Got to do it somehow.
No way I’m going to subject my son & grandchildren to being Black in America under what’s coming. Just got to convince my wife who says, “Nobody is going to run me off.”
She hasn’t yet realized that our 240 experiment in representative democracy is over.
I feel like I’m living in a nightmare already…
Eric S.
@craigie: will you accept Chicago as an outpost?
Gelfling545
@guachi: Well, half filled. This would not be a good time to be in the military, though
Chris
@Villago Delenda Est:
World War Two movies have been a favorite thing of mine since childhood.
Every time I watch “The Longest Day” or the like now, it’s going to be really hard to silence the little voice in my head saying “and all that was for nothing,” even if I know better.
Villago Delenda Est
@Dave in Dallas: The problem is that they will not make the connection between cause and effect. Somehow it will still be the fault of the “liberals” that stuff is going to shit. These people cannot reason.
rikyrah
@lamh36:
I’m lucky that I work at a place where everyone is as depressed as I am this morning.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Good news for pushing back on voter suppression in at least one state.
cleek
@lamh36:
yes. my FB friends list shrunk a bit this AM.
LurkerExtraordinaire
@guachi: I have so much respect for you, guachi. I’m a vet, and if you need any support at all, let me know.
lgerard
The simple truth is, for all the talk about how the GOP had to rethink their coalition and expand their appeal, it is the Democrats that need to do that. The reason is simple, the groups that they depend on, young people and minorities simply do not vote. We see it every 4 years in the off elections, and now we have seen it in a presidential election.
In other news, ‘Yellow Kid” Weil, “Soapy” Smith, Bernie Cornfield, and Charles Ponzi are all sitting up in their graves in admiration of the greatest con ever pulled off in this country.
The Moar You Know
My state: San Diego County, the bastion of conservatism on the California coast, went 58/38 in favor of Clinton.
We voted Darrel Issa out of office and replaced him with a decent Dem.
We put an aspiring GOP family out of the game.
We won our local city council.
We won our school board in spite of a 10:1 spending deficit – and it wasn’t a win, it was a blowout.
We got it done here. This county. The one that usually votes like the Deep South. We pulled it out and convincingly. What the hell happened everywhere else?
ETA: three observations: 1. The Clintons are toast. 2. We’ll be decades recovering from this. I will probably live long enough to see it, hope so anyway. 3. THE CONSERVATIVE MEDIA IS 100% RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS RESULT.
hueyplong
And let’s not forget we have a President and a majority in Congress who profess to believe that climate change is a hoax.
Jinchi
I’m just happy to live in California today.
Oatler.
As type this the ABC morning show is doing a “Meet our new First Lady!!” feature. George and his crew are quite chipper and playing along.
Bob
First and foremost – fight for 2018. Secondly get rid of the electoral college. And third (perhaps most importantly) take the Democratic Party away from the Clinton apparatus and their third way bullshit and let’s get back to our FDR roots.
The Clintons need to go away – for good.
Major Major Major Major
@Kurzleg: it tells me that obama was special and 2008 was special. How many went for Romney?
I read the article and while it raises some good points it just shows that one of the fundamental American stories is rural distrust of urban ‘elites’ and city dwellers looking down on rural folks. We knew that, we’ve known that for centuries. And yes of course race is hugely tied up in that.
dlm
@Hal: They got what they wanted and now they don’t know what to do with it. Or they voted thinking Trump would never win.
AxelFoley
Fucked, well and truly we are.
Thanks, Berniebros. Thanks, apathetic voters. Thanks, privileged white folks. Thanks, white women who don’t mind their pussies being grabbed by sexist pigs. Thanks, ignorant rednecks who think rich white folks give a fuck about you. Thanks, America for handing the keys to a bigoted fucknugget after a black man got you back in track, restoring our standing in the world with style, grace and humility.
Peter
@lgerard: The GOP is still burning the future for the present. They’re just getting a lot more present out of it than anyone thought.
kwAwk
What now?
A good start would be for a lot of people on the left to stop calling everybody who disagrees with them Stupid, Racist or a Troll. It didn’t work against Reagan, Dubya or Trump. Truth be told there are valid arguments on the right, the problem is with degrees. It is true that government shouldn’t be the primary provider of jobs in an economy, but that doesn’t mean government doesn’t have a role. You’re not going to reach out to people if all you do is insult them. Convincing people is hard work. Dale Carnagie right? You can influence people when you make it about them.
Quit talking about how things need to be free, thank you Sen. Sanders. Talk instead about making college more affordable and controlling costs and helping people make good decisions.
Quit calling everybody racist who wants to curb illegal immigration. There is nothing inherently racist about it. We have a right to control our border. Yes some racists hide behind the notion of controlling illegal immigration but that doesn’t make the issue inherently racist.
Lastly, and people will hate me for this, while it is true that there is true abuse directed at blacks, women and gays, each group needs to swallow it’s pride a little and accept criticism when it comes their way. Religion isn’t inherently bad and is slow to change. The rate of change on issues like gay marriage was exceedingly fast. It might have been better in the short term if people got used to civil unions first. Women, yes abortion is a private decision, but using abortion as just another form of birth control, especially in the later terms is despicable.
Lastly, we all know the Cleek principle right (is that the right term?) The right mainly consists of bullies and trolls who inherently like to offend the left. The more it offends the left the more they like it. Quit being so fragile all the time. When Trump says ‘grab her by the pussy’ and people say it’s just locker room talk, well that is what it is. Sometimes jock guys talk like that. Don’t believe then Google ‘dirty sanchez’.
Feel free to call me a moron, racist or troll from here on out as you want.
kwAwk
BTW… It doesn’t hurt to compliment your opponent once in a while. For all his short comings Donald Trump is one hell of a salesman.
Elizabelle
Hillary up now.
Iowa Old Lady
@The Moar You Know: Bless you and your neighbors for throwing Issa out.
dnfree
Planned Parenthood is a good choice.
I am among those who never thought Hillary should run for president, and in fact back during Bill’s presidency I thought she knew that. I was wrong. I didn’t think she should run in 2008, and I certainly didn’t think she should be the nominee this year, having added her Clinton Foundation and corporate speech baggage to the already existing pile. It was clear people were looking for a change.
We knew from Trump’s nomination that the Republican party was broken, and we now know that the “clearing the way” for Hillary by the DNC shows that the Democratic party is also broken. So I think your “reassess” approach is wise. There are a lot of broken institutions (my perspective) in this country right now, also including Congress, the Supreme Court, and much of the Christian church. And when people on the left were cheering over the idea that the federal government could force states to take in refugees even if they didn’t want to–is that really what liberals want to stand for? So count federalism as broken also, or the balance between federalism and the states.
mkro
There is nothing that you or I or any of us can do. There just are not enough educated, enlightened voters in this country to get past this. This election proved that.
Betty Cracker
@cokane: I’m wondering why you feel the need to bang that drum in every fucking thread. We don’t have all the answers yet. I remember when Prop 8 passed in California, and everyone (including Andrew Sullivan) rushed to blame black people on the strength of exit polls. Guess what? That was wrong. There will be plenty of time for analysis and strategy adjustment. Maybe today isn’t the best fucking day for this.
RareSanity
@The Dangerman:
Now that’s funny.
We’re talking about people that endorsed or denounced Trump depending on which way the wind was blowing, and nobody cared. These are people that only care about obtaining and then maintaining power, and they will welcome anyone that will assist in that pursuit regardless of character or previously held positions.
These are the same people that could, with a straight face, say things like…”I don’t like Trump, but I’m still voting for him because he’s a Republican.”
The “NeverTrump” moniker will go down the GOP memory hole just like the GWB administration…all will be forgiven as long as they get onboard for whatever lunacy is being pursued at the time.
mkro
Move to the West Coast, aka NOT the Real ‘Murica
WaynersT
I have never panicked regarding my IRA/Savings portfolio in the stock market since Obama came into office until last night. I stayed up all night with this overwhelming sense of doom & finally just sold it all this morning. I’ve been so very thankful Obama got me my life savings back – I knew I could not tempt fate again.
Republicans will crash the economy again no doubt, and it will certainly be worse with this know-nothing in charge.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
They’re certainly done as candidates, but 18 months from now, when Trump is at 35% and Republicans are stammering to explain how they still support him after scandal/gaffe/policy disaster X, you don’t want HRC doing fund-raisers?
bemused
@Peter:
I checked out the votes from townships in my area, Iron Range, St. Louis Co, MN. Three townships north of us that really skew Republican voted for Trump and Republican Stewart Mills for MN House defeating Dem Nolan. However it did surprise me that they voted for the other Dem candidates MN House and Senate.
About 6 other townships voted for Trump but voted for Nolan and the MN House and Senate Dems.
Imonlylurking
@LurkerExtraordinaire: Do it. Count me in-I’m in Minneapolis.
Daulnay
@Trentrunner:
This is very important. Our country has elected a dictator-wannabee; unless his old age kills him, we’re in for a very rough time.
People on the margin are going to be given a very, very hard time by Trump’s hate-fueled minions. It’s likely that the economy will go seriously south at some point, possibly right away. When that happens, expect Trump to scapegoat — he’s never to blame, after all. He will attack some group, deserved or not. Given the people around him, it’s likely to be Jewish people, intellectuals, ‘socialists’, and of course anyone critical of him.
Trump’s hate-fueled minions are 1/3 of the people who voted for him. The other 2/3 are going to deeply regret their vote in 8 years (assuming he doesn’t die in office). Some of them will help. Some – and some on our side – will be filled with despair and fear and will back him. Some will be convinced to let hate fester and bloom. But if we’re going to win some of that 2/3 over, we have to start actually listening, and not just dismissing what they say out of hand (as I’ve seen all too often here and elsewhere).
Bitter faction is the death of republics. While the Republicans own most of the blame for this state of affairs, we own some of it. As in England, there’s going to be a lot of buyer’s remorse on their side. It’s going to be easy to say ‘fck them, they own it’, but we’re going to need each other. Fck the hate-fueled people, yes. There’s no helping them. You want to blame the Republican elites, well, there’s a lot of blame to go around there. But there’s been (maybe understandably) a lot of anger and frustration on our side towards the people on the other, and a lot of putting them all in the deplorables bin. Bitter faction. Going to be hard to say no, but we’ve got to stop.
daves09
Nevada blue all the way-dem. for senate,marijuana legalization, money for schools, Hilz for president.
Is it a comfort that Trump hates the repub. congressional leadership? And probably the regular party too?
His motto is going to be *nobody tells me what to do, you didn’t elect me.
The really disorienting thing is that no one, not Ryan, not McConnel, not the leaders of the rest of that world, not Trump himself, have any idea what Trump is going to do. Interesting times.
Chris
@Hal:
Yes. Good God, I find these people fucking unbearable. I loathed the NeverTrumpists as much as the Trumpists through this entire election cycle, and they’re not disappointing me. Lots of bullshit about how “I really think people voted this way because they’re tired of being called racist” and “rural America is so marginalized, so hated.” Lots of the usual “both sides do it but liberals are worse” bullshit, with every fear of Trumpian abuse of power being met with “LOL you libz didn’t care when OBAMA did it.” Etc.
cokane
@Betty Cracker: i feel the need because i’m trying to pinpoint what went wrong in this election, where clinton lost to someone who got less fucking votes than Romney.
One has to wonder at your motives — posting no data, posting no actionable information, but attacking those who do.
FlipYrWhig
@Villago Delenda Est:
Or, to put it another way, “Those people keep stereotyping us, which is the kind of thing those people are always doing, which is why we hate them so much.”
I mean, I’m not quire sure why it’s so important to be nice to rednecks in order to avoid upsetting them. Rednecks everywhere have been happily and openly hating the queers and thugs in [Nearby City or State Capital] for, like, a century.
SenyorDave
@The Moar You Know: THE CONSERVATIVE MEDIA IS 100% RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS RESULT.
I think the alt-right should have been one of the biggest stories of this election cycle. Steve Bannon, Trump’s campaign CEO, runs a website that serves as a kind of clearinghouse for white nationalists/supremacists. I think Hillary was stunned when that story got no traction, and that was the basis for the deplorables remark.
The Dangerman
@The Moar You Know:
Please tell me there isn’t some sense that HRC will try again in 4 years?
Yup. I don’t think I’ll live long enough to see it. Think of it being like a Cubs fan for all those decades.
THIS. Trump was given soooooooooooooo much airtime to spew his shit; we need a new Fairness Doctrine (yeah, I’m not holding my breath).
gene108
@Major Major Major Major:
Republicans have patched their holes with voter ID laws, unlimited corporate cash and aggressive gerrymandering, so they will stay afloat for now.
Democrats?
I don’t know what they can do to patch their holes.
Losing the Supreme Court to another generation of rabid right-wingers is going to hurt.
Hope no one else on the court dies, until 2020, so there’s a chance to retake it then, if some older conservative justices – Kennedy or Thomas – bite it.
smintheus
This is what happens when the Party decides we have to nominate the person whose “turn” it is. Enthusiasm for that person is low, and their competence as a campaigner may turn out to be low as well. The turnout was very poor among Democrats, particularly among blacks in places like WI and MI; they were never terribly enthusiastic about Clinton, the Clinton camp was warned repeatedly that it needed to do something to fix that, and it just whistled on past it.
Don’t tell me that Clinton won the popular vote. This election against a clown like Trump should never have been close. Don’t tell that the Dems could not find a semi-competent campaigner toward whom half the country was not bitterly hostile, when Joe Biden was shunted aside at the outset.
The way to campaign against Trump was not to treat him seriously, as Clinton did. The obvious path that she never pursued was to mock the living daylights out of him until people who might consider supporting him would consider him the worst kind of loser.
Chris
@LurkerExtraordinaire:
I don’t know, but do please keep us in the loop. This interests me.
Elizabelle
@Iowa Old Lady: Issa’s out? Hooray.
RealityBites
@Villago Delenda Est: your nim sums up a lot of the problem. We aren’t dealing with low information voters, we had anti-information voters. Zero knowledge of what’s at stake. And I also NEVER want to hear anyone claim that racism isn’t the problem it used to be. I am so depressed and upset. How can we solve our problems when a large portion of our society WANTS to be comfortable and clueless and blame “the others” instead of dealing with the truth.
mak
I keep repeating to myself: For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. This principle brought us Barack Obama; now I trust (hope?) that this election will bring us the opposite of whatever the fuck just happened in order to restore us to equilibrium.
FlipYrWhig
@Daulnay:
Too fucking bad. I want them to die.
cokane
@Betty Cracker: by the way, im not attacking black voters. It’s entirely possible that the question we should be asking is why didn’t Clinton appeal to black voters enough?
zzyzx
@Punchy: You forgot social security. That’s gone. Also how long does the pot legalization experiment last now?
Joyce H
@Oatler.:
Oh. my. god.
One thing we can do, I think, is push back when the media does their inevitable attempt to normalize this whole business. Contact them and make sure they know THIS IS NOT NORMAL. NONE OF IT is normal.
Maybe I’ll get to a more charitable place sometime, but right now I’m feeling vindictive. I feel like it would almost be fun to watch the Trump supporters come to the realization that they are just the latest in a long line of marks who fell for his scams – if only we didn’t have to live in the same country while they were realizing it.
And if Obamacare gets repealed and the person who loses their insurance and can’t get more because of a pre-existing condition is a Trump supporter, today I feel like I would go to the hospital and tenderly take their hand – and then JEER AT THEM AS THEY DIED.
Daulnay
@Villago Delenda Est:
This is what I’m talking about. A lot of white evangelicals are basically decent people, and certainly not fascists by any stretch. #notall…
Don’t stereotype, it’s lazy and shuts out a lot of decent people.
smintheus
@gene108: Those of us who criticized RBG for taking extreme risks by not retiring under Obama now have decades to contemplate how oh so wrong we were – as we endure under her rabid right-wing successor.
Chris
@brendancalling:
Yeah, and this is hitting me this morning too. It’s not just this election. It’s this election plus all the years of bullshit that’ve come before it. It’s being so fucking sick to death of the cycle of “Republicans break the country, Democrats are brought in to fix it, people promptly forget about it and put Republicans back in power, and inevitably this happens again” that’s been going on since the motherfucking 1920s at least. At the moment, without even specifying for individual demographics, I just want to grab the American voting public by the neck and shake it and ask “WHEN THE FUCK ARE YOU GOING TO LEARN?”
SenyorDave
@Chris: LOL you libz didn’t care when OBAMA did it.
Because Obama is the real racist, not the man who was still a birther in Jan of 2016, 4+ years after Obama released his birth certificate. I like to think when Obama meets Trump, at some point he’ll ask for a private conversation and tell him point blank “GFY, Donald, for the birther shit you put me and my family through”.
NobodySpecial
No, what matters is that so much of the Democratic ‘coalition’ saw what Trump was selling, heard his words, and sat on their asses in response.
They’re frogs in water. Obama was a fluke in moving them. They can’t be relied on.
Steve in the ATL
@gene108: at this point we hope the conservative justices survive as well. Don’t want Thomas replaced by someone younger but with the same mindset.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym
@enplaned:
I will never be able to fathom Americans’ deep seated belief that politics, unlike every other profession, is best done by total amateurs.
smintheus
@Joyce H: People are going to die because Obamacare is repealed; it’s not amusing in any way.
FlipYrWhig
@smintheus:
Maybe there should have been more than 50 micro-elections where the members of the party could settle that question.
How do you square that with the emerging narrative that rural people decided they were tired of feeling like they were being mocked and belittled?
RareSanity
@smintheus:
You mean the strategy that the participants in the GOP primary followed?
How’d that work out for them?
Daulnay
@gene108:
The Republican party is what’s left after a Nazi chest-burster emerges. The Republican party as we knew it last century is dead.
MomSense
@Major Major Major Major:
But that doesn’t explain Trump. He is the ultimate urban elite and self described multi billionaire. They rejected one urban elected to vote for a more elite urban elite? At lest Hillary is a self made woman unlike Trump who inherited millions.
This whole resentment of elites explanation is just trying to come up with a more palatable explanation than racism and mysogyny. He hated the people they hate and he said so without trying to soften it. That’s the real reason.
geg6
I just can’t. For the first time in my 58 years, I just can’t.
This is worse than how I felt about Election 2000. This is worse than how I felt in the run up to Iraq War II: Electric Bugaloo. This is worse than I felt after 9/11. I just don’t think I can do it any more.
FlipYrWhig
@Daulnay: Fuck “decent people.”
SenyorDave
@Joyce H: As type this the ABC show is doing a “Meet our new First Lady!!” feature. George and the gang are quite chipper and playing along.
MEET YOUR FIRST LADY, sho is probably in the country illegally at this point. She worked illegally (did not have a work visa), and my understanding is that makes her illegal. She should go first in the deportation line. Can a private citizen report someone to ICE?
Joyce H
@smintheus:
I’m not amused. I’m freaking FURIOUS.
rikyrah
@Punchy:
Medicare=voucher
Emma
@Joyce H: Yes. My mean streak is active and I don’t think it’ll become dormant again in a long while. I might be sorry for the children but the rest of them can live with what they will get.
Emma
@Daulnay: Where the hell was their decency when they were voting?
FlipYrWhig
@MomSense: Yeah, the “resentment of elites” thing makes no sense to me either. I think it’s entirely “it doesn’t matter, let’s vote for the guy who’s ‘politically incorrect,’ I like the way he pisses off Those People.”
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I think you have that exactly backwards. My Monday-morning QBing, and honest and for true I’ve been having this thought for the last couple of weeks, is that she;/they put too much focus on Trump’s personality– abnormalizing him, to borrow Chait’s term– and not enough normalizing him as just another tax-cuts-for-rich GOP plutocrat. I assumed they had everything poll tested and focus-grouped and knew what would work.
Major Major Major Major
@gene108: you can be afloat but still broken and just animated by dark magic. A party that self-perpetuates merely because it’s self-perpetuating isn’t really a party in any meaningful sense.
Cermet
@Chris: Love the utter lie of the “Greatest Generation”! First off, it was the sticking commie’ Russians under the mass murdering Stalin who defeated the Nazi’s. Next, those Amerikan GI’s hated Ni”Clang” ers as much as any one. Hatred was one of their greatest achievements – look how much progress in civil rights occured after the war – almost nothing. They, the privileged white soldiers demanded and got vast government handouts and all they could do was bragg what great soldiers they were when they still face only a tiny minority of the German army and often got their ass’s handed to them in many fights; thank god for the Brits and their allies. LOL
Daulnay
@Chris:
Look in the mirror first. Part of this was our mistake too — go back and look at the rhetoric people used here when Bernie supporters tried to point out Hillary’s weak points. Look at what people said to Jim Webb supporters. Heck, look at the responses to this post that will soon be coming.
Chris
@RareSanity:
Every NeverTrumper I’ve met, every one, was a “both sides do it but liberals are worse” type of asshole, who refused to reckon with what Trump meant for his party, who tried to portray him as a totally inexplicable thing that appeared out of thin air like “poof!” and who couldn’t go one sentence without talking about how he was just like the Democrats, how the Democrats brought this upon us, how it’s just terrible that our two choices are Trump and a Democrat, etc.
They’ll fit in very well into this new era. They’ll be the refined and respectable Good Germans who weren’t wild about that grubby little Austrian house painter with his coarse ways and his rabble-rousing politics, but nevertheless stuck with him because of high minded patriotic principles of Country First and whatnot, and also because leftists are worse.
Botsplainer
Time will tell as to whether we got Sil Berlusconi or Augusto Pinochet.
Sadly, or institutional checking mechanisms are under control of a venal Congress.
I can’t wait to get my 20% off vouchers for my Medicare that I’ve been paying into for four decades now (I’m 54, and figure that vouchercare for those under 55 gets signed by February 1).
Mom will say “I didn’t expect them to do that to you, but there were too many colored getting it”.
sherparick
@Kurzleg: First, reference Trump’s victory speech last night. As I thought (since I am now an old coot and was alive at the time), it is straight from Nixon’s 1968 speech. Check it out starting at the 6:33 mark.
https://www.nixonfoundation.org/1968/11/victory-speech-1968/
I feel like Cole a bit. Besides giving money to organizations that are going to need it spades, I just want to tend to my own garden.
As the old curse says, I guess we live in interesting times.
Dave Remnick says a lot here: http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/an-american-tragedy-donald-trump
http://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/blogs/stateline/2016/01/22/fewer-manufacturing-jobs-housing-bust-haunt-many-us-counties
Brownback is supposedly at 26% approval, but Kansas still voted for Trump in order to apply Brownback’s policies to the whole country.
NMgal
New Mexico voted as expected, Clinton by 8%. My rural, diverse (Anglo, Hispanic, Native) county voted Clinton about 70%, Trump 18%. Non-negligible percentages for Johnson (7ish) because he’s from here and Stein (4ish) because we have some hardcore leftier-than-thous and CDS sufferers.
I still feel sick, and in shock. I really thought we/they were going to pull it off. And how could the polling be so wrong? Fuck.
SenyorDave
@rikyrah: Medicare=voucher
I’m 58, I figure they’ll target the under 55’s. I still think its hard to take away medicare from the young. Vouchers are assinine. My mom is 87, I call her and I hear about her next 10 doctor’s appointments (usually in the space of a little more than a month). And she is fairly healthy compared to her friends. Insurance companies will be beating down her door to cover people like her.
Lizzy L
@The Moar You Know: According to der Google, Darrell Issa won re-election.
Shit.
chopper
@Cacti:
can we just carve off the west coast and call it Ecotopia?
Mary G
@The Moar You Know: @Iowa Old Lady: I hate to burst your bubble, but we did not succeed in throwing Darrell Issa out.
From the California Secretary of State website:
Much, much closer than previous elections, but not close enough. I spent hours and hours volunteering starting in July, and donated more than I could afford, but we came up short, so Darrell and Donnie, the Terrible Twosome, will be together in DC.
Betty Cracker
@cokane: No need to speculate about my motives: I’ll tell you straight up. People are seriously depressed about this catastrophic outcome. I’ve seen suicide mentioned, and not in a sarcastic way. Feelings are raw as hell, and a couple of valued members of this community have expressed that they feel attacked as people of color by comments like yours — people who have every reason to feel especially vulnerable right now. I’m not saying don’t ever analyze it. I’m suggesting that maybe all the information isn’t in (Prop 8), and maybe this isn’t the time. But you do you.
Enhanced Voting Techinques
The radio had a segment from a Fox News panel filled with such conservative derp thinkers as Tucker Carson and they sounded just as stunned and horrified as we are. Do keep in mind while Trump was all over the place the message that got him elected was throw the crooks out and heavy handed government intervention into the economy. Trump is the end of Reganism, so what does Trumpism mean? You take the racism away, jobs for the poor an’t that far from what the left wants. so if it ends up some kind of rural socialism, is that a bad thing?
Anyway if your’ feeling sick, go do an hour of something physical. Adrenalin turns to poison if it’s not used up.
rikyrah
@smintheus:
That was one of my first thoughts..
20 million people will lose healthcare.
People will die.
Daulnay
@Emma:
They were too caught up in bitter faction. Just like we are.
MomSense
@FlipYrWhig:
I love this idea that there was a better candidate out there. Who? And seeing how Bill Clinton and Obama were treated, who the hell would subject themselves to that? We had all of three people step forward-one 70 year old socialist, Hillary,and a not ready for prime time former Governor who was terrible at it. Oh and that Chaffee dude and shitheel Webb for all of five minutes. My at the time undecided son saw the first debate and immediately decided Clinton was the only serious ready to be President candidate.
gene108
@lamh36:
Funny thing is I have a couple of co-workers, naturalized U.S. citizens from India, who said Trump’s going to close all the military bases overseas and bring troops home.
I think one voted for Trump and one for Hillary.
I am struck by how much people have projected whatever they want onto to Trump, despite everything he’s said and done.
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
That’s really up to the media to go after the scandals. And so far they have stayed away from making them front and center like e-mails and Benghazi.
I do not see that changing.
Even when Trump goes to trial over Trump U and rape charges, the media silence will be deafening.
I personally think Trump will be smart and when he wants to use the U.S. government to enrich himself, he’s going to lean on foreign governments to give his business favorable treatment. Most Americans really will not care that India or Pakistan or Brazil or wherever decided to buy a bunch surplus Trump steaks and Trump brand clothes. Even though it’s a conflict of interest for normal people in office.
The Moar You Know
@kwAwk: I will sign on to that.
mkro
@Mary G: Something tells me that the endless fruitless investigations into the Executive branch will suddenly come to a screeching halt.
smintheus
@Corner Stone:
Much more than that. The standing of the US in the world is going to plummet. Trump will almost certainly create major schisms in NATO, our allies will lose all faith in US leadership and begin to go their own way. Nobody is going to trust a puppet of Putin, much less an unpredictable clown. I don’t see how we ever are likely to recover our eminent position in world leadership. Why should our allies trust us enough to tie their futures to ours, when we’re willing to elect a reality-show ignoramus as president?
Peale
I guess what happens next really depends on what happens in the House and Senate. My guess is that the filibuster is gone and Democrats should not ever vote to pass damn Republican bills unless they have influence. So they can vote to keep the lights on and pay the debt, but if nothing is offered to get their support, then no votes should be given. We’ve seen what happened to an entire generation of DNC Reach Across the Aisle types who vote for Iraq Wars that are unpopular with our voters. Or even think about passing trade deals. Or bailing out the banks. Or passing bankruptcy “reform” bills. Those things eventually come back and bit us in the ass. The Republicans have a mandate, and they actually do. I don’t know what damage they can do, but the Senators especially have to make certain that the damage if their vote, not the votes of anyone who expects to run for higher office.
But sadly, no one wrote me in for Senator or the House and I can’t be the whip. Somewhere out of this mess we need to find the legitimate “last honest person in politics” who voted against all of the shit is about to happen. But God, Dems, don’t do what you did in 2000 and think popular vote win combined with a electoral vote loss means that you have to start voting in favor of shit you know Democratic voters will hate.
Daulnay
@Enhanced Voting Techinques:
Hate to play this violin again, but Trump is a genuine fascist. They do massive public works to sustain the economy — and it will make Trump temporarily popular, just as it did Mussolini and Hitler.
frank
don’t go away john. as corny as this sounds, and i know you were on the other side for a while with the W, but places like this help, and they help a lot. they help people in real ways and they help up lift each other through the struggle to come
mkro
@The Moar You Know: Problem is, I fear that Trump’s campaign will now act as the new template for all future POTUS campaigns. Dig up deep-seated core resentments, throw around insults and innuendo, share conspiracy theories …
SenyorDave
@gene108: Even when Trump goes to trial over Trump U and rape charges, the media silence will be deafening.
The rape complaint was dropped, my guess is a settlement.
Major Major Major Major
One thing that interests me and would have made a fun TV show in the parallel universe where it isn’t reality is how everybody is going to deal with drugs. We have a patchwork of legalization laws that now include an entire coast and the world’s 6th-largest economy, a deeply compromised FBI tasked with dealing with it, a fascist president who honestly probably doesn’t give a shit, and a gold rush between pharma, big ag, and tobacco/alcohol companies to take over the market through shell companies.
Chris
@The Dangerman:
I’ve been saying this with regards to Bush’s legacy in the Middle East for ages. In this country… holy crap.
cokane
@Daulnay: Starting to wonder if stuff like the Sistah Souljah moment and all that 90s anti minority triangulation is coming back to haunt the Clintons a bit. There’s some evidence that black voters dropped off significantly from 2012 levels, some of that had to be expected. But some urban counties have like 20% vote for clinton, more than enough to cost her Michigan at least.
ETA: Also wondering if maybe just campaign resources were misspent, not enough effort on GOTVing these areas, assuming they’d go big blue
The Moar You Know
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Absolutely not. They need to pack up and leave. If history is any predictor of the future I’d suggest another country for their own safety.
greennotGreen
I don’t blame Hillary. I don’t blame the Democratic Party. I blame the American electorate. Enough of us voted for the candidate that was endorsed by the KKK and the American Nazi Party. The Republicans won by embracing hate and fear and resentment. I don’t want the Democrats to ever become that party.
You know the famous Rosie the Riveter poster that says, “We can do it!” I think it that line should be replaced by, “We can’t do it, and it’s somebody else’s fault.”
Kurzleg
@Major Major Major Major: I think what it tells us is that the racist/nativist aspect of their resentment isn’t determinist. That’s a good sign! So as I said, we’ll need to start figuring out how to appeal to such folks in our messaging and campaigning. There appears to be opportunity. I don’t think it requires a big change in platform but rather the language we use, etc. I mean, an effing billionaire with whom they’ve got nothing in common got their votes. I don’t see why that can’t change.
frosty
@Barbara: many didn’t show up due to being purged from voter rolls…
gene108
@Enhanced Voting Techinques:
When you get past the rhetoric of a transaction tax on Wall Street trading, Trump is giving away more to the rich, via tax cuts, than any other candidate.
He’s a “billionaire”, who is going to give himself the biggest tax cut in history.
As far as the rest of the promises to impose trade barriers on imports, I’m not sure how he’s going to do it, because Republicans in Congress will not support it and deep down, Trump does not care that deeply about any single issue, other than his fame, enough to fight for it.
Rommie
My state of Michigan was indeed stupid enough to elect Herr Trump. North North Alabama showed up en masse to vote for him. The CSA wins the long long game. Fuck John Wilkes Booth.
Category: “Lives That Matter” Well, it was good while it lasted, America.
I feel like we have to hope that Trump is even more of an uncontrollable beast that he’s shown, and doesn’t listen to, or like, the poop Congress will send him for a rubber stamp. Yeah, good luck with that, sigh.
Will Trump defend the Baltics? Taiwan? Any nation who doesn’t pay up for protection? Or does the US start getting froggy again, and use force to end disputes? Both? Does the military salute the flag, not the man, and follow any orders given? All questions we never should be asking for real, but now are.
But hey, WMU got a win in a tough weather game and can still go to the Cotton Bowl – a little one I guess, when you’ve lost the big one.
Shalimar
@cokane: If your information is “actionable”, what are your proposed actions? It looks like scapegoating from here.
Daulnay
@smintheus:
Europeans went through this before. They know what’s coming, and I would bet a lot of the older ones – the ones that weren’t fascists – are filled with dread. NATO is a dead letter, or will be soon unless Trump’s age gets him first.
David
@The Moar You Know: hate to be the bearer of worse news, but Issa won. http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/elections/sd-me-election-issa-20161106-story.html
Jim, Foolish Literalist
This is addressed in a couple of threads below: Somebody Who’s Out There Who We Don’t Know About, like Jimmy Carter in 1975. That Candidate could not have failed.
I’m still shell shocked. This won’t quite sink in. This isn’t a poll or a primary or even a law that’s passed. There will be no gangplanks to run back across, which at least the UK had with Brexit. This is it for at least two years, more likely four or more. The Supreme Court is gone. Obamacare gone. The climate fucked. I know these things, but they’re not quite sinking in.
Chris
@RealityBites:
I’ve had plenty of political arguments with my father over the years. The one that he indisputably won, though (as I conceded years and years ago) was that race remains the axis on which American politics turns.
His coming-to-political-awareness was the civil rights movement, so he that’s his perspective.
bemused
@FlipYrWhig:
Rural people feeling they are mocked and belittled is ingrained in them and it’s been like that for as long as I’ve lived here, over 60 years. If it’s not one issue that gets their panties in a twist, it’s another and they swiftly jump from one beef to another and then the next one. They are grievance collectors. That’s not to say that they don’t have legitimate issues to be angry about but they really don’t spend any time figuring who/what is actually responsible.
catclub
@Botsplainer:
I think the present model is Erdogan.
MomSense
Here’s a cheery thought. Health insurance companies and private prisons stocks are soaring today.
This is our future.
WarMunchkin
The way Bill kissed Hillary on the forehead after her speech was cute. I’m a little annoyed at how rowdy the crowd was; I mean, yeah, I get why.
Daulnay
Amen.
jake the antisoshul soshulist
Kentucky went the way I expected, only more so. I thought it might be 8-10 points, but 30.
cokane
@Shalimar: seeing dropoff in turnout is ALWAYS actionable, it isn’t hard to figure out, that at the bare minimum, you spend more campaign resources in those counties next time. And maybe you up whatever issues folks there care about in your campaign rhetoric. Fuck off with your unhelpful tut tutting
Brachiator
My state of California voted for Clinton by a big margin (61% to 33%). We also voted for Kamala Harris to succeed Barbara Boxer in the Senate.
We voted to increase taxes on the wealthy to help schools, voted for cigarette taxes (and stupidly also for e-cigarette taxes).
We voted new gun and ammo restrictions.
But we also voted to keep the death penalty and to accelerate the process to speed death row inmates to their execution.
Oh, and adult movie performers don’t have to use condoms.
catclub
@Chris: Trump doing absurdly well with black men spells misogyny.
Gavin
What to do as Democrats?
Throw out the neoliberals.
Throw out the fealty to Wall Street.
Throw out the people who stopped paying attention to labor — you know, the group that voted for Trump.
We had a winning candidate — Sanders. His message was Trump’s, but without the race-baiting.
This was an election based SOLELY on the economy.
Trump voters knew they wouldn’t get any better over the next4 with Clinton.. or any establishment figure.
They thought they had a shot at getting better with Trump.
geg6
@bluehill:
You do know that that is how Hitler came to power, right? I am not as sanguine as you seem to be.
MomSense
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
My kids are freaking out and I’m trying to be strong for them but holy hell this is tough. The older two are draft age.
Shalimar
@gene108: One good thing about the limited information we got during the election: Trump can’t give himself the biggest tax cut in history, because he doesn’t actually pay income taxes now.
mak
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
This is an interesting question. As a gentleman, one would think Obama would respect the tradition of ex-presidents avoiding criticism of the sitting prez. At the same time, he’s already signed up for a project with E Holcomb to organize state and local democrats for the mid-terms, so he’s going to have regular access to the press, ergo a very good reason to criticize whatever weekly stupidity Drumpf shares with the class, and fewer than zero fucks left to give. And after the Cheney ex-regency, I wonder if that old rule applies any longer.
We shall see.
What the fuck.
Daulnay
@Chris:
That’s been painfully true. There are two blocs that will never, ever be on the same side – Blacks, and the whites that want to re-enslave them. Everyone else has been lining up with one side or the other since the Civil War.
catclub
@gene108:
Also his heirs in the inheritance tax.
Daulnay
@mak:
You are assuming that Obama’s going to stay out of prison. I wouldn’t count on that under The Donald.
MomSense
@geg6:
I think you and I are feeling similarly today.
Shalimar
@Gavin: Sanders is Jewish. The anti-semitic rhetoric would have been the centerpiece of the campaign if he had been the nominee, and I suspect you would be shocked at how few of Trump’s white supporters see Sanders as a fellow white guy.
catclub
@mak: My first guess is the press will make him as much of a non-person as Gore was after the 2000 election.
smintheus
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: There’s a difference between treating a rival as an extremist, and making him an object of derision. The authoritarian types on the right side of the spectrum are not attracted to people who are viewed as pathetic.
Trump was doing everything possible, successfully, to drive down support for Clinton. She needed to (a) give potential supporters a clear set of reasons to go out and vote for her [which she mostly didn’t enunciate, witness the low turnout], and (b) do a better job of depressing potential Trump supporters’ enthusiasm about him.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
You have that backwards
Nope. Trump was promising to cut taxes, Sanders to raise them, and that, for a lot of reasons, is still the most potent single argument in American politics.
geg6
@Daulnay:
Nope. Not interested in them any more. I’ve tried this shit. Never again.
Oh, and the republic already died. Last night.
Shalimar
@Daulnay: I agree with this. Trump was a Hillary Clinton supporter before he started positioning himself politically to run for president. I doubt he has any personal animosity against her or any reason to pursue charges against her. She is the past.
Trump hates Obama. Everyone knows it. Just because there is no evidence Obama has ever done anything illegal doesn’t mean they won’t railroad him on something political that Republicans disagree with.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@smintheus: what we mock in Trump, his ignorant bluster, is exactly what his voters like about him
Daulnay
@Gavin:
No, Sanders was not a winning candidate. He did not run in order to become President, he ran to raise issues. He is very old, and that would have been an issue. And you did notice the anti-Semitic campaign adverts that Trump ran? Sander’s message was a winning message, but he had a lot of baggage on top of being a Socialist. He would have had a lot of trouble turning out the Black vote, and may not have added enough to the Dem coalition. Liz Warren might have been able to win, though.
Roger Moore
@cokane:
Minority turnout in states adopted voter suppression after Shelby County. I’m going to lay a chit that minority voting was down far less in states that didn’t go out of their way to make it harder.
gene108
@Major Major Major Major:
@Kurzleg:
Good luck with that.
Democrats have been struggling with that, since 1964.
chopper
@rikyrah:
yep. Paul Ryan may not be speaker in a few months but he’s getting his budget.
social security, Medicare, welfare, all cut to the bone. big tax cuts for the rich.
the epa and doe are gonna be running on a shoestring if their even around in a few years.
smintheus
@FlipYrWhig:
Trump is not rural. The point would be to make potential Trump supporters see him as a pathetic, effete, weak clown. Who wants to associate themselves with a candidate like that?
gene108
@catclub:
I wonder what the repeal of the inheritance tax is going to do to all the lawyers, who went into estate planning.
geg6
@Daulnay:
No, they are not. And yes, they are. I know a lot of them. You obviously don’t. They would nail you to a cross and poke you with sticks until you died and laugh while they did it. Because you, sir, are a sinner!
Chris
@Botsplainer:
We’re seeing a lot of soft autocracy/illiberal democracy lately, where presidents concentrate power around themselves and rule by increasingly autocratic means, thanks in part to a genuinely strong public support base. Putin in Russia is the ur-example, but also Erdogan in Turkey, Viktor Orban in Hungary, Maduro in Venezuela, whatsisface in the Philippines.
I’m afraid that Trump’ll put us down that path.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
also, if you’re arguing that African-Americans were unenthusiastic about Clinton… Sanders heart and votes may have been in the right place, but he could never talk about justice issues without manifesting his impatience to get back to the real issue: Billionaires!
JMG
It is quite probable that the next leader of the Democratic party will be someone whose name we don’t know yet. I really wish there wasn’t so much bickering here today. I know people are just venting, and they have every reason, but we have to be with and for each other.
celticdragonchick
@Gavin:
I guess you missed the white nationalism…especially since voting for Trump does not seem to correlate with economic insecurity but correlates pretty damned well with racial resentment.
Oh, and fuck off.
D58826
@Bob: with all due respect between 1968 and 1992 the FDR coalition won one presidential election – Jimmy Carter and that may well have been a hangover from the Nixon pardon. The terrible Clinton machine gave us 8 years of bill and a budget surplus and Obama and Obamacare. Not to shabby.
Now I agree that the Clinton’s have to step aside., Hillary certainly isn’t going to run in 2020. I’m not sure we can fit the FDR roots into a 21st century economy. There have been a lot of comments about how the D’s abandoned the white working class. Maybe that is true but the jobs that the white working class depended on are gone. They are not coming back. They are gone due to globalization, robotics, changes in other technologies (less steel is used in a car today so fewer jobs for steel workers, container ships need fewer longshoreman, used to take 6-7 men to run a train that was maybe 400 feet long while today 2 men run a train that is 2 miles long). The D’s have to addresses that issue and offers solutions, if there are any.
The same way with the criticism that the D’s have to close ties to Wall Street (i.e. Hillarey’s Goldman speeches). Well guess what it takes big buck (usually) to run a campaign and Wall Street is where the money is. The FDR coalition could tap into a unionize work force that made up 35% or so of the working class. The strong unions bargained for benefits that were passed along to the non-union white collar workers. Private sector unions today make up 7% of the workforce and are on the defensive in most of the country.
So the FDR coalition won’t cut it. The D’s have to figure out a new coalition. And I have no idea what that might be. When you have people in Kansas reelecting Brownbeck after he tanked the economy and electing Bevins in Ky after he promised to take away peoples Obamacare, I’m not sure what you can say to win their votes. When all of thew indices of social well being are in positive territory in the ‘blue’ states and negative in the red states but red state voters are for family values, well I give up.
liberal
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Yes, this is EXACTLY my main concern going forward: that the press and other assorted idiots will blame “both sides”.
If we rely on the press to blame the Republicans, it won’t get done.
frosty
@cokane: actually how many were disenfranchised
Chris
@smintheus:
The potential breakup of the Western alliance system is one of the many things that terrifies me about this. I’m not an ordinary case, but I think that would shatter my sense of identity in a way I never considered until recently.
cokane
@Roger Moore: this is worth looking into for sure
Corner Stone
@Daulnay: Did they vote for Trump? There are other ways to determine if they are fascists, but that’s the bell ringer where you know for sure.
ArchTeryx
@smintheus: *raises hand*
Daulnay
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Actually, the Dems did ignore one section of the electorate that really was theirs to pick up — the Hard-Pressed Skeptics of Pew’s analysis of the 2012 electorate. They’re your ‘labor’. And Trump didn’t, he spoke to them while Dems ignored them. Now he’s our effing President, God help us.
Cain
@smintheus:
Easy to say that now, but we all approved of the way Clinton handled Trump on this blog. I don’t really think mocking him would have worked especially when he was well and truly mocked by everyone else.
Major Major Major Major
@Rommie: oh god, Taiwan. Our commitment will be tested sooner rather than later especially with Duterte shitting all over things in the Philippines.
cokane
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: yeah i agree, if black voter dropoff was Clinton’s biggest issue, I don’t think that bodes well for saying Sanders would have done better, the opposite actually!
Brachiator
@RealityBites:
@Chris:
And yet Obama was elected twice. And Clinton lost states that Obama won in 2012. On the other hand, Trump did better than Romney.
There are odd, conflicting forces at play here. There is no question that racism and nativism has intensified, in the US and in other developed countries. And the worst racists feel emboldened by Trump’s victory, and feel vindicated by his ascendancy.
But there is also a clear dissatisfaction with both the Democratic and Republican Establishment and with the status quo. There is a palpable resentment against public officials who promise one thing, but then do nothing.
Bobby Thomson
@Trentrunner: this.
cleek
@cokane:
at the same time, black and latino men voted for Trump in numbers greater than they voted for Romney.
doesn’t take much thinkin to puzzle that one out.
chopper
@Gavin:
pull the other one, it’s got bells on.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@liberal: I was referring to the WWC voters who put Trump in office and will be hurt by his, and Ryan’s, policies. They’re the ones who will blame “Washington”.
geg6
@The Moar You Know:
I agree completely. I think their safety is totally at issue now. They should go and go now.
celticdragonchick
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Trump was pushing the Dolchstoss meme where rioting blacks, rapist Mexicans and murderous Muslims were destroying America and he was the strongman to make them stop. He talked to white workers in the rust belt who were convinced that those strapping young bucks were still cutting in line to buy t-bone steaks on welfare.
It comes back to race resentment and misogyny.
bluehill
@geg6: Yes, I know. And I am definitely not sanguine. I think (hope) that there will be multiple points for changing course going forward, but agree this election puts us on a dangerous path.
Cain
@zzyzx:
Yeah, our legal pot is probably in danger now. God knows what next year is going to be like. But nobody is going to pressure the FDA to change the scheduling. On the other hand, Trump might just abolish the FDA. :D
Chris
@geg6:
“Sinner,” eh. I think this understates the extent to which white evangelicals are simply unreconstructed segregationists with a thin makeover. They don’t care all that profoundly about your soul.
Erick
@craigie: hey don’t forget us in Oregon and I think Washington is with us too
cokane
@cleek: i dont agree with this analysis though. i mean, misogyny no doubt played a part, but again, Trump got LESS votes than Romney. Clinton got SIGNIFICANTLY LESS votes than Obama. The key to this election is how WE can do better, not why THEY are so bad.
Keith G
The (approximately) liberal political party in the US needs to figure out a few things. What are the needs of our society that can be addressed by liberal politics? What are the best policies for those needs? How will we form coalitions to address the needs and develop policy?
In some ways, the Democrats got penalized for believing too much in Demographic shift as the answer. Yes, demographic shift, but also a mission that helps give greater buy in to the various groups. Apparently the center-left establishmentarian outlook of the Democratic Party (DLC-ism) was not inspirational to enough of the population.
WE have a chance to start over and I want all the DNC gone….okay leave a few who seem to have a knack for strategy. WE have a great chance at a 2018 comeback, but not if it’s the same Democratic Party. We need to treat Donna Brazile, the way we wanted William Crystal to be treated in 2006. Clintonism and it’s off-shoots need to be put away on the shelf. Let’s not be afraid to rebuild.
Daulnay
@Corner Stone:
A lot of non-fascists voted for Trump this election. A lot of very foolish people held their noses because ‘Supreme Court’, or because they hated Clinton. Or they just thought a corrupt Hillary who cozied up to big business, who pushed the free trade pacts that have hurt them, who took millions in speaking fees from the bankers, might not really have their best interests at heart.
Those things don’t make them fascists.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Daulnay: I’m not familiar with that Pew study, but Dems haven’t ignored middle and working class voters. The policies are there, from infrastructure to health care reform to the minimum wage. The WWC doesn’t want to hear about them. The horses were shown the water, and didn’t want to drink. They put Boehner and then Ryan in the Speaker’s chair, McConnelll in the Senate leadership, and now Trump in the Oval Office.
RareSanity
@catclub:
Wait…what?
What “absurd” number? The black vote was running 80%+ for Hillary everywhere, more than ANY other group. How much more exactly were you expecting?
AxelFoley
@kwAwk:
Fuck you.
Daulnay
@Keith G:
You are assuming that the Republic will be here in four years. That’s very hopeful of you.
AxelFoley
@kwAwk:
Fuck Trump and fuck you again, bitch.
The Moar You Know
@Botsplainer: We’re getting Rodrigo Duterte.
Gavin
@celticdragonchick:
Might want to, you know, read a few things. Not just me saying this.
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/06/wall-street-2016-donald-trump-hillary-clinton-213931
Heliopause
“Second, I don’t understand how future campaigns will work. Truth and facts and basic common decency clearly do not matter. Policy positions clearly do not matter. It honestly appears that the only things that matter are jingoism, race, and identity.”
Here’s what you need to know to figure this out:
1. As of now Trump has fewer popular votes than McCain did in 2008. With a little counting left to do let’s assume those numbers will be equal.
2. Factoring in population growth that means Trump got several million votes less than McCain did in 2008.
3. In 2008 McCain lost in about as close to a landslide as our system will allow.
4. Hence, Trump got fewer votes than a recent landslide loser.
Once you’ve figured out that your candidate lost to someone objectively less popular than a landslide loser you’ll have this thing halfway licked.
WereBear
It is my theory that the polling was so off because people didn’t want to admit they were going to vote for Trump.
And then they did anyway.
Ascap-scab
I don’t understand how future campaigns will work. Truth and facts and basic common decency clearly do not matter. Policy positions clearly do not matter. It honestly appears that the only things that matter are jingoism, race, and identity.
Brawndo -It’s what plants crave!
Chris
@Daulnay:
See Robert Paxton: fascists by themselves are never enough to get anywhere, they require cooperation from other factions, generally “traditional” conservatives who consider them preferable to the other potential alliances there.
But this doesn’t actually let said conservatives off the hook. The best thing you can say about them is that instead of hating minorities as an objective in and of itself, they care so little about the lives of minorities that they’re willing to throw them to the dogs in order to guarantee themselves a few extra million bucks when the taxman’s through.
Call that what you will (“racist” is absolutely one of the words that applies); a Captain America comic from a few years ago had this covered exactly:
Dr. Erskine: “You work with the Nazis, but you don’t share their ideology?”
Johann Schmidt: “And?”
Erskine: “Am I supposed to think that makes you less despicable than them, or so much more?”
Schmidt: “Forgive me for answering your question with a question, Doctor. If I kill your family because of their Jewish blood… or if I kill them because you refuse to work for me… Will they not be dead all the same?”
If you do fascist things, you’re a fascist. And voting for a fascist is doing fascist things. Elections aren’t therapy sessions and nobody gives a fuck WHY you voted for the fascist. Only what the result is.
lgerard
@WereBear:
Not surprising when these are the very same people who hate “the media”
geg6
@Daulnay:
They voted for a fascist. Whose fascist policies were out and proud. I don’t care if your sweet Aunt Sue and funny Uncle Buck are among them. They are fascists any way you look at it and I want nothing to do with them. Ever. “Trump’s Willing Executioners” will be the book written about them. I’m throwing family overboard over this. And I don’t regret it one bit. I don’t want to associate with them in any way ever again.
Ascap_scab
I don’t understand how future campaigns will work. Truth and facts and basic common decency clearly do not matter. Policy positions clearly do not matter. It honestly appears that the only things that matter are jingoism, race, and identity.
Brawndo -It’s what plants crave!
celticdragonchick
@Gavin:
Your purity pony bullshit is duly noted. Nice to see some white, entitled progressives are far too pure to vote for the female politician who worked and mastered the issues and policy because an acerbic crank who only joined the fucking party a year ago decided he wanted to showcase his warmed over Marxist theories on class struggle.
Oh, and fuck off.
catclub
@The Moar You Know: Accurate, except with less previous public service.
Cain
@smintheus:
When that happens I expect the value of the dollar to plummet. Maybe Rand was right about gold…
Keith G
@Daulnay: It will. I am rather confident that no elected federal official will be on board for changing that…and further…If some cabal tried to move such a thing from idea to act, it would not survive first contact with the outside world. There are many ways we might go tits up, but it won’t be this nor this soon.
RareSanity
@cleek:
I can’t believe I’m reading this, here on this blog…
So people here are going to focus on the 13% of black men that voted for Trump…fucking 13%(!)…like that’s significant compared to the 26% of Latino women, and fucking 52% of white women?!?!
Double a small number is still a small number, and not enough to have won anything. How about we focus on why so many women voted for Trump instead of settling on “those black and browns did it to us again”.
Jeebus, did I just warp on to Breitbart News?
cokane
@RareSanity: we shouldnt be focused on anybody who voted trump. i agree with the sentiment expressed by many here — fuck them.
we can win without them, we beat a bigger number in 2012, by a healthy margin
Daulnay
@kwAwk:
You started almost reasonable, and went downhill all the way to this comment:
People need to push back when they are assaulted, when their innocent kids, mothers, husbands are shot by police for no good reason, when they’re killed for being gay. The hatred that gets expressed isn’t ‘criticism’, it’s just hatred. The ‘pussy’ comment wasn’t just ‘locker room talk’, unless by that you mean the rape culture that’s all too common in locker rooms. A lot of ‘criticism’ of blacks is just racism.
Yes, Dems need to actually listen to people on the Right without just dismissing their complaints. But 1/3 of the Republican voters really are hate-fueled, and there is no point listening to the hate.
Roger Moore
@MomSense:
This. I’ll acknowledge that Hillary might not have been the best candidate in history, but she was the only one in the whole damn election who was fit for the office if she won. Trump may be a brilliant campaigner, but he’s going to be a disaster as president, and that’s true to a lesser but still significant extent of every other candidate except Hillary and maybe O’Malley.
D58826
@RareSanity: didn’t Obama get 90%? That might have made the difference in PA and NC. Don’t misunderstand I’m not laying the blame exclusively on black men. In many ways it was the perfect storm for Trump. All of the lose ends broke in Trumps favor. If a couple had broken Hillary’s way she would have won.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Hillary Clinton, tool of Wall St
Daulnay
@LurkerExtraordinaire:
This is a great idea.
Applejinx
I’m in Vermont, John. They never even mentioned us, not once.
Election Day, I went and voted a straight Dem ticket. I bought two boxes of donuts with money I can’t really spare, and went off to Keene NH to a place I was told about by a MoveOn canvasser who’d called me the previous day asking for money. I said, I have no money but will be in Keene Tuesday so tell me where I can volunteer.
Turns out it wasn’t a Dem office, it was specifically a MoveOn office. We sent canvassers out to places like Sullivan County and I entered data all day long, hammering info into the Dem VoteBuilder system I learned working for Bernie. In many places we canvassed, the Democrats had sent nobody, choosing to canvass and re-canvass downtown. We got several people to the polls or changed their votes with various special pleading (for instance, some people were responsive to ‘voting Hillary will make Bernie chair the budget committee’ where other arguments failed.
I went to the Dem office to watch the results come in, and returned home after 3 AM. I’d personally worked to get people who swore they’d never vote Clinton to give her a chance. I still believe, even now, that if she’d pulled off a landslide, the odds are good that she’d have been amazing and fully engaged with a desperately needed progressive platform addressing things like income inequality and climate change. I don’t believe she would have recanted the platform, I think she’d have gone through with it (and likely caused a civil war in the process).
I don’t believe Bernie would have done as well and don’t regret publically backing Clinton. I am however very grateful I have no Clinton iconography on anything like my car because I can’t afford to have my stuff smashed, I have so little already. I think most of all, I regret that I will never be able to see if I was being a fool to trust Hillary Clinton even as much as I did. Again, I still think it could have been true.
I trusted you people.
Good job, gold star. :/
Aleta
Sarah Jarosz singing:
Underneath that shirt you’re wearing
Strained muscles and a heart of stone
Leather costume like a wild chameleon
You make me want to be alone
I can hear you knocking on the door
I won’t leave it open for you anymore
I can hear you knocking on the door
Knocking on the door of the house of mercy
Don’t try to change my mind
That knock gets louder all the time
Don’t try to wear me down
you’ll never get inside this house
(House of Mercy)
Aleta
Sarah Jarosz singing:
Ring them bells for the blind and the deaf
Ring them bells for all of us who are left
Ring them bells for the chosen few
Who will judge the many when the game is through
Ring them bells for the time that flies
For the child that cries
When the innocence dies
Ring them bells Saint Catherine from the top of the room
Ring them from the fortress for the lilies that bloom
For the lines are long and the fighting is strong
And they’re breaking down the distance between right and wrong
RareSanity
@D58826:
My point is that regardless of whatever the small percentage was that voted for Trump, to put forth that the group that gave a steady 80%+ (over 90% in some areas) of support, from ANY one group, to ANY one candidate, could have done more is probably a fairly good indication of quite a bit of what went wrong in Hillary’s campaign.
Nobody supports Democrats like black people…NOBODY. But that’s not enough, huh? You want 100% compliance? Well yessah massah…we’s gonna do bettah next time.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Roger Moore
@cokane:
Let’s just say that the trend will be so obvious that it will require a legal mind the caliber of John Roberts to justify ignoring it.
Carolina Dave
@Punchy: can’t disagree with any of this.
catclub
@Cain: The Iran deal is also a biggie. Israel always wanted to bomb them, Obama convinced them not to
because of the deal and negotiations working. Now?
Chris
@geg6:
To add to all that spiel I put above, I just remembered a much simpler summarization from a blogger I love:
“To bastardize an excellent quote, Nazi isn’t something you are. Nazi is something you do.”
My sweet Aunt Sue and my funny Uncle Buck are among them. That’s why I have no hesitation in calling them fascists. It doesn’t mean they’re cartoon characters. They love their children, take care of their dogs, there are any number of things I could rely on them for. But they’re also people whose prejudices are such that, given the chance between bona fide fascism and one of the groups they’ve developed an irrational hatred for, they’ll pick fascism or, at most, sit on the sidelines and bitch that both sides do it (but fascism’s victims are worse). They would, in another time and place, be the quintessential “Good Germans” who, at best, allowed fascism to happen.
Cain
@Chris:
The republicans will never allow that to happen. He will be in for a fight with Congress.
In any case, we can trust nothing that comes out of Trump’s mouth about his intentions.. it will change week to week.
Aleta
@Aleta: lyric above was wrong:
Leather costume like a wild chameleon (No!)
Double crossin’ like a wild chameleon (Yes!)
catclub
@RareSanity:
Good point. I did that. I was wrong.
D58826
@Gavin: Depressing read. I think it’s called cutting your nose off to spit your face. The progressive McGovern lost big, the progressive HHH lost, the progressive Mondale lost. Yesterday the progressive Feingold lost. It is just possible that there are not enough progressives to win a national election. Maybe Hillary was the status quo candidate but the status quo included rescuing the economy, rescuing the auto industry, Obamacare and Dodd Frank. The choice between Hillary the status quo and a back to the 17th century Gooper should be a no brainer. A vote for locking in the status quo, tilting the balance on SCOTUS, making some marginal gains on things like climate change and minimum wage while building a more progressive oriented coalition seems like a pretty good approach when you consider the alternative. Most of those red states are net consumers of tax dollars generated in the terrible blue states. Until you can convince those red state voters that the GOP serves the 1%, a progressive agenda is DOA.
RareSanity
@catclub:
I know it wasn’t on purpose, and emotions are still a little raw, but we have to keep our wits about us. :-)
Roger Moore
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
This is what I’ve been saying. Talking about low minority turnout while ignoring voter suppression is ignoring the Republican elephant in the room.
Kurzleg
@gene108: Like I said, it isn’t going to be easy. But we just need to make progress at the margins for it to pay off.
Kay
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
They’re the same kind of assholes as Trump.
I’m proud of Clinton. She fought. She stood up for AA’s and Muslims and immigrants and women. She didn’t compromise on core values and decency to get a share of the coveted “Trump white working class and upper class asshole” vote (which she wouldn’t have gotten anyway).
She didn’t move an inch in their direction on bigotry or racism or religious intolerance or hating on women and treating them like chattel and I’m proud of that.
boatboy_srq
@Hal: interesting comment re: Facebook. The ONE comment I’ve seen from the other side complains about the “vitriol” from the Left. Really? When the GOTea candidate is on record saying some of the nastiest stuff I’ve heard from a candidate ever? When “make America white again” isn’t merely some wing it slogan but popular enough to put on T-shirts and sell by the gross at campaign events? UH-HUH.
VA went about the way I thought it would. Ditto NH and ME. FL was a surprise, not because the blue parts went blue but because the inland and panhandle are so flipping red.
There’s definitely an urban/rural chasm that will need to be bridged. But how do we do that when the RWNM is documented to keeping it open? The NRA would not be nearly so powerful if the conservatists didn’t believe every single liberal wanted to confiscate all their firearms right down to little Bobby’s BB gun; the anti-choice forces would either if the same group weren’t convinced that “pro-choice” literally means “we abort every fetus we encounter”; etc. The problem is the misinformation that divides. And unless the Fairness Doctrine comes back, or the public start demanding accuracy from their news feeds, we will never get that.
D58826
@Brachiator:
both sidesism again. Obama did want to try and get some things done. The GOP obstructed every step of the way and have been rewarded for it. And as Obama has said over and over again sometimes you have to accept the loaf one slice at a time.
Cain
@catclub: Ugh, I forgot about that.. jeezus, the world is goign to get more dangerous. He’s going to bankrupt us with the number of missions he is going to put the U.S. on.. we are going to be totally isolated from allies thanks to this clown.
D58826
@Kay: YEP!!!!!!!!!!!
OGLiberal
The three states that surprised me were MI, WI and PA. FL is 50/50 every time. OH is lost to the Dems and good riddance. NC is also a 50/50 proposition and VA isn’t even a swing state any longer. I could only find exits for MI for both 2012 and 2016. Here’s what stood out:
2012 – Obama:
Whites (77%) – 44%
Women (51%) – 57%
Men (49%) – 50%
White Women (39%) – 47%
White Men (38%) – 41%
AAs (16%) – 95%
Latino (3%) – 63%
Education – High School (22%) – 59%
Liberal (26%) – 91%
Moderate (39%) – 60%
Dem (40%) – 95%
GOP (30%) – 4%
Indy (30%) – 48%
2016 – Clinton:
Whites (75%) – 36%
Women (52%) – 53%
Men (48%) – 41%
White Women (40%) – 43%
White Men (36%) – 29%
AAs (15%) – 92%
Latino (5%) – 59%
Education – High School (20%) – 46%
Liberal (27%) – 81%
Moderate (37%) – 52%
Dem (40%) – 88%
GOP (31%) – 7%
Indy (29%) – 52%
Her white overall total was -8%. White men, -12%. White women, -4%. Lost a lot of libs and mods who I’m thinking went to Johnson and Stein. She also got 7% less Dems – again, a number of them probably went Johnson or Stein. I know exits polls are generally not very reliable but this is all we have so it looks like in this Midwest state, the third-party candidates did have a negative impact and white folks in general are more comfortable with a black dude than a white woman..or probably any woman. And that includes white women voters, who supported Obama 4% more than they supported Clinton.
Betty Cracker
@Kay: Amen. There’s going to be a lot of pressure to jettison our values to expand the party’s appeal to the white working class Trump voters. We can’t let that happen.
LurkerExtraordinaire
@MomSense: And this is exactly why I want to start that group. To get people to safety if they need it with the help of friends.
And, by the way, my name is Adria McDowell. I’m no longer lurking, and I put my name on anything I post here from now on.
CarolDuhart2
@craigie: #Calexit is trending on twitter.
sherparick
@craigie: Can Virginia join?
AxelFoley
@cokane:
You’re really trying it with this blame black people shit, instead of placing blame on the majority of white people who voted for this assclown, especially the 66% of white women.
Grace
@zzyzx: “Also how long does the pot legalization experiment last now?” Depends on how much money the ‘right’ people make off the experiment. (Same as just about everything in the economy under Goopers: are the right people looting enough from this enterprise to justify keeping it around? Are the right people enjoying this enough, or are the ‘wrong’ people benefitting too much from it? Always the calculus for them.)
Adria McDowell (formerly LurkerExtraordinaire)
@Kay: Me, too. Really proud. We cannot compromise our sense of justice and fairness.
trnc
@Trentrunner:
I’ll need a few minutes for that one because I think some of the people who are getting ready to suffer greatly are the ones who elected him. I’m not talking about minorities.
Chris
@Cain:
I hope it’s true, but I’m not at all sure of it.
Cckids
@Cain: Nevada actually exceeded my expectations. We got our first female Senator; a Latina !! Took back Joe Heck’s House seat. Got the state Assembly back in Dem hands. Passed recreational pot. I haven’t checked this morning, but last night the gun -control/background check bill was winning. Gotta find silver linings wherever possible.
I’m still moving to WA in January. Going to a more reliably blue place.
NobodySpecial
Question.
It’s open enrollment time for Obamacare. Should I even bother?
What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?
@Enhanced Voting Techinques: I was saying early on that Trump was serving up cold war era Democratic big government with a side of racism. It’s true…but I’m not sure how strongly he feels about any of that stuff, or anything really. My guess is he signs anything Congress puts in front of him. I doubt we get trade protectionism. Maybe he’ll make some progress on the wall but probably desultory progress. He’ll be a figurehead. The Republican Congress will do whatever they want which is actually worse for the nation.
ruckus
Work is about as I expected. The loud and proud asshole supporter is being just that.
What do we do about it? I have no idea. Sucks to be anything less than wealthy right about now. If you aren’t your choices are limited, your options not all that good.
AxelFoley
@Daulnay:
Shut the fuck up with that bullshit.
Chris
@What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?:
He care about the racism. He doesn’t care about the big government, unless by big government you mean his ability to do anything he wants.
boatboy_srq
@lamh36: I think a lot of us are in that boat. tRumpets are everywhere, and come in all shapes and colors and preferences. What disturbs me most is that many will treat me, individually,as a person worthy of respect and acceptance, but will view others just like me (who are distant and therefore faceless) as animals that should be locked up, silenced or otherwise diminished.
Tom Q
A few things:
1) Anyone trying to compare voting/turnout to 2012 or 2008 should wait a few weeks — there are probably 5-10 million votes still to be added to the tallies (it’s what’s happened in all recent elections). And you should expect these additional numbers to augment the Dem margin: Obama rose from a 6% lead to 7.25% in 2008, and 2.6% to 3.7% last time. The West Coast is always added late.
2) It’s very strange that NC voted to remove its governor last night but simultaneously voted to inflict his policies on a national scale.
3) Anyone who says “No more Clinton/Third Way” is proving he/she paid not one word of attention to Clinton’s campaign this year.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Oh, okay,
I didn’t know you were insane.
boatboy_srq
@NobodySpecial: Yes.
It will take a year or more to wind the program down regardless of what the GOTea wants. 2017 won’t be cheap but it will be there. 2018? That’s a different matter.
thepanzer
Where’s your god now hillbots & obots? Good thing you guys hitched your wagon to Obama for the last 8 years after he continued Bushes 3rd and 4th terms. Great idea throwing Sanders under the bus and going with Ms. “It’s my turn” instead. At least dems will pretend to oppose war again for awhile since a R is in the white house.
Seriously, in good news though. Obama’s entire legacy may disappear in the next 100 days. The ACA gone in a puff of smoke. But hey, that pragmatism thing and going with neoliberal puke for close to a decade paid wonders eh? Telling most of the working class population to go F themselves paid real dividends. I guess the intersectionality identity politics wing of the electorate wasn’t quite up to snuff…
Your tears are like bright pretty gems. Like candy, i eat them up! More, more tears please! So much salt!
The Clinton, Obama, and Bush dynasties are all finished. The neocons who ran to “the annointed one” are now out in the cold. I guess Victoria Nuland doesn’t get to start a war with Russia after all.
Now over to digby’s, more tears to harvest. Then salon, then huffpo, then jezebel, then vox, then slate. So many hillbots, so little time.
You guys climbed on the bandwagon for one of the most corrupt, power-hungry, and warmongering politicians in recent memory. Hillary was Dick Cheney in a pantsuit and you guys ate her drivel up. Here’s a little hint, the public rejected Hillary not because they’re racist jingoists, they rejected her because she had the worst traits of Dick Cheney and Jamie Dimon all rolled into one. The better question is why you doofus’s thought she wasn’t terrible in the first place. So I’ll take my narcissistic skirt chasing New York real estate developer over your pant suited Satan any day of the week. Looks like a healthy majority of the country felt the same way.
Where’s.your.god.now?
Cain
I’m hoping that our midterms we can keep status quo… I really worry that we are going to lose influence all over congress and basically be helpless passengers on the road to destruction.
Chris
@boatboy_srq:
J. K. Rowling had this covered years ago: “you call everyone of my birth a mudblood. Why should I be any different?”
NR
Any course of action going forward has to begin with cleaning house and getting rid of the corrupt Democratic party establishment that foisted such a godawful candidate on us in the first place. Absent that, we won’t be able to mount any kind of effective resistance against Trump.
Chris
@Cain:
Ditto.
liberal
@catclub: Yeah, that’s a bad one. Very bad.
OGLiberal
@Chris: Trump didn’t enter this thing thinking he’d win. When he won the primaries he both said eff it, I’ll keep going, which he would have done anyway because of his giant ego and he always has to win. I really don’t think he or his folks expected to win last night. I think Romney’s folks actually did but I don’t think Trump did – I think his goal was what some sources said, to better than Romney so he could stick it to that back stabber. Now, he’s president elect. We heard this from a Kasich source months ago but I think he spends his presidency going around the country, holding rallies saying stupid/crazy stuff and opening up golf courses and hotels. Bible humper Pence takes care of policy and is assisted by Rudy, Newt and a whole host of other lunatics/frauds. He’ll sign anything Congress sends him and will allow them to tell him who he should select for SCOTUS because he’s just to lazy and interested to even think about who it should be. He may not even run for a second term – his ADHD head will probably be so bored with it all by that time. But by then the damage will be done.
Or, he becomes dictator for life. Could happen. Heck, he got elected so anything could happen.
So shocked and sad…sorry, but this country sucks….well, the white part of it.
Chris
@NR:
So you’re going to get rid of over half the Democratic electorate. Got it.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Chris: gotta get rid of all the people who have been working and voting and volunteering for decades, and replace them with the soul patches, nose rings and white-boy dreds who think Bernius Sandersdore was gonna cast the Freebus Collegius spell
(and yes, I am troll baiting. it’s a fading thread)
liberal
@smintheus:
Agree, agree, agree, agree.
I saw it in MD (female candidate, had been LT gov). Happened in MA twice with Martha Coakley (Sen, then Gov). Now it’s happened with Clinton.
OTOH it’s not true the Republicans _never_ do it; they certainly did it with Bob Dole. But that’s not our problem.
NR
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Trump got a bigger share of the black and Hispanic vote than Mitt Romney did, but go ahead and keep blaming shit on the Berniebros if that’s what it takes for you to get your rocks off.
Chris
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
You know, I had no fucking problem with Bernie Sanders for most of the campaign, or even his trolls. And all the volunteering I did for Hillary, I’d have eagerly done for him.
In the months since his concession, though, God damn if I haven’t come around to the dominant BJ point of view concerning the surviving Berniebros.
liberal
@Brachiator: Great points.
Brachiator
@D58826: RE: But there is also a clear dissatisfaction with both the Democratic and Republican Establishment and with the status quo. There is a palpable resentment against public officials who promise one thing, but then do nothing.
Bullshit! I get tired of people who insist on looking for and finding easy ways to dismiss an idea instead of considering them.
The dissatisfaction with the parties have different sources, and yes, absolutely, the Republicans suckered some voters into a “both sides do it” perception that no one would compromise even though the truth was that Obama was checked by Republican obstructionism.
And Hillary Clinton was in many ways unfairly branded as “doing nothing for 30 years” and being part of the Establishment.
But Trump sold himself better as being anti-Establishment. Early on he actually criticized the Bush Administration for Iraq (and then later waffled on it). And even though I think his proposals are evil, he promised his base to do something about immigration and national security protection against terrorists even though he is going against the GOP elite on these issues.
The Democrats rightly noted that Trump was going to far, but the bottom line is that the voters did not like the Democratic Party alternatives, or did not believe that they were what they wanted.
And the Democrats clearly did not understand nor were they able to sufficiently deal with the Bernie Sanders phenomenon, which was clearly an anti-Establishment movement.
Here is the problem. Obama is right, but the voters did not care. They were not willing to accept the loaf one slice at a time.
The sad fact is that the Democrats may have lost this time no matter what, because the voters wanted things that the Democrats may have been unwilling to deliver for valid purposes.
However, the bottom line is that the Democrats did not understand the degree of discontent, and the anger beneath it, and could not come up with a compelling counterargument.
liberal
@Chris: You clearly don’t know what the word “establishment” means. It isn’t a reference to who voted for whom, or the finer points of ideological preferences. It’s a reference to the power brokers in the party.
Chris
@liberal:
I understand the word just fine. You just don’t seem to understand how she actually got to the top of the ticket.
liberal
@SenyorDave:
Yes, they’ll pull the backloaded “under 55” shit.
Of course vouchers for medical insurance for old people can’t work. The real danger is that the people in Congress _really believe this shit_. They’re true free market worshippers.
liberal
@Chris: He’s talking about cleaning out the establishment as a matter of internal party maneuvers, not in terms of a primary.
Whether it can happen is another matter.
NR
@Chris: The primary vote only happened after the party establishment had cleared the field for Hillary. All that was left to challenge her was Bernie Sanders. A 74 year old socialist was not a serious challenger, and yet he still got over 40% of the vote against her. That right there was a giant red flag for anyone who was paying attention–but of course, by then it was too late.
liberal
@OGLiberal:
The simultaneously funny as hell yet scary as hell thing is the thought that Trump could make Bush 43 look like a paragon of competence.
liberal
@NR: Exactly. The party establishment can’t decide how people will vote, but they have a lot to do with setting the field.
liberal
@Brachiator: Agreed. You have to go to the election with the populace you have, not the one you wish you had.
Rick Taylor
My opinion is it was a mistake to nominate Hillary. And I say this as someone who likes and admires her, and thinks she would probably make a good President.
But she’s been demonized in the right wing press. I have some conservative evangelical friends on Facebook, and they were as terrified of a Clinton Presidency as I was of Trump. It’s not fair, but in choosing who we nominate, we need to keep these issues in mind.
Shell
Still cant decide if the country has lost its mind or if its so rotten to the core that this is the guy they really want in the Oval Office. And as far as the morons who are saying they voted this way cause they ‘want change,’ well, Im sure its coming. And I hope that change runs right over you.
Hell, Im still waiting for this all to turn out to be a bad dream.
Roger Moore
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I don’t know that it is insane. Trump has already threatened to appoint a special prosecutor to throw Hillary in jail, even though there’s no evidence she did anything criminal. Why wouldn’t he go after Obama, too? With the wrong judge and jury, I’m sure you could get a conviction.
mr_gravity
@Served: I believe we have moved well beyond blaming “the media” for anything. The problem I see that a lot of people are overlooking is that we are all now a part of “the media”. Everyone with a phone has a camera and a mic. The misinformation being spread on facebook and twitter and others seems to have a much greater impact on group think than ever before. None of it sourced, most of it inaccurate, all of it biased one way or the other. Trump and others have hammered the “the media” to the point where low-information voters ignored factual sourced reporting (what there was of it) and relied on “social media” and their own circle of like-minded friends. I can think of no other plausible reason why so many were willing to accept a virtual torrent of lies and swallow them whole. Hook. Line. And Sinker.
Cain
@OGLiberal:
he’s going to hate being president because his movements will be all restricted due to security. All of that shit might be okay for domestic stuff, but shit will hit the fan for domestic disasters and actual foreign policy shit. I mean, I think we are sitting duck because this man will have no clue what to do in the advent of something bad happening against the U.S.
I personally think that our enemies will be embolden to try something to test the waters.
Cain
@Roger Moore:
He doesn’t have to do that. He’ll go after ObamaCare and destroy anything Obama has done for the past 8 years. He will kill Obama’s legacy. Every deal, every bill whatever it is, he’ll get rid of it. The man is vindictive.. and maybe if they find something that could be possibly criminal he will smear Obama with it as well.
Peale
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Yep. And that is the bind. I think Kay wrote about the resentment that the volunteers for hillary in her area felt that the young Obama supporters disappeared when it was her turn. They supported her in 2008 but went along with their candidate and then 8 years later when things were looking grim in their state, Obama’s supporters weren’t there in the trenches. I get that. Those volunteers, though are the base and that has been the problem with integrating the Bernie supporters from the beginning. They are adament that they are the base once again because their absence caused us to loose the election. They are part of those missing 5 million voters from 2012.
But they aren’t the base because they don’t actually show up and vote.
So fine, I want to win again, so I guess we can let this very very weak “base” that is prone to run away choose our candidate next time. If that’s what it takes to get them back to the polls. Because I do think we can get those voters back much more quickly than the RNC can find its missing Bush voters. That said, they’d better stick with it. It was always my fear with Bernie from the beginning that Sanders supporters would find excuses to leave us holding their very hard for me personally to vote for candidate.
Hopefully they find that next candidate soon, because I won’t vote for it if it hasn’t done the groundwork to get support and endorsements from other groups within the actual base of voters.
Brachiator
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
If you are referring to the Democrats, the problem is that they did not know what would work.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Brachiator: Yes… that was kind of my point. They and I were wrong.
Roger Moore
@Cain:
I don’t think he actually will throw Obama- or Clinton- in jail; that stuff was just something to get the crowds riled up. But it’s hardly insane to suggest that somebody who has explicitly threatened to jail his political opponent would go after others, too.
Peale
@cokane: Or the population of detroit declined.
Anyway, it isn’t really an issue of either the young people or the African Americans were the source of the drop off. It could, you know, be both. It could be young African Americans in that state – or maybe formerly progressive middle aged voters in other places. There may be a reason that in the final days Bill was visiting Lebanese delis and Clinton was on stage with both Beyonce and Bruce Springsteen.
Brachiator
BTW (and someone else may have noticed this as well). The polling failed to indicate the degree to which voters, especially those in the battleground states, were defecting from the Democrats.
And to give credit where credit is due, some actual reporting in the Atlantic, the Guardian, and by the Young Turks website people, with real people in Ohio and Pennsylvania clearly indicated that many people there simply did not believe that the Democrats were looking out for them.
The double whammy is that some of these people had lost jobs when companies left the area, and they did not believe that unions, which had already been humbled, was a magical solution anymore.
Cain
@Brachiator:
I think it is true, and it is possibly true that nobody is looking out for these folks. But what can you do? These jobs are going away because there are cheaper alternatives in technology and robotics. As I was saying in another thread, it is likely that we won’t even have cabs with drivers in them in the future. Eventually, everything labor intensive is going to be done with robotics or something else. I don’t know how to help them.
artem1s
Roe is gone. Social Security will be gone as soon as Ryan can privatize it and then crash the economy. Then will come Veterans pensions and benefits. and finally they will mandate liquidating all trusts and endowments. they will leave no stone unturned when it comes to killing what is left of the New Deal. No money for stimulus or infrastructure. Only the richy richests will get to go to college and then run their trust funds dry. expect to see every state to try and reinstate DOMA laws. And if they can get to Comey, expect to see a return of DADT too. The military chicken hawks will find endless brown people to blow to bits for the right to unbid government contracts. Right to persecute anyone who isn’t a fundy wingnut, that will be first on their list of getting things done in SCOTUS.
The real question will be, because of everything that is burning, will any of us notice when they start rounding up people they don’t like. Move them out of the nice neighborhoods and push them into ghettos. who will be first? Mexicans or the people who protest the round ups? Political enemies of all kinds to go after. Will anyone notice? Or will we all just hide and pray that we aren’t next.
moderateindy
Hillary Clinton’s baggage that mattered was that she was plain, and simply a perfect incarnation of an establishment politician. The same establishment that has helped cause the current conditions we have that people are so upset with. Trump was the opposite. That’s why the extraneous things stuck to her, because they were all part and parcel of being part of that establishment. Trumps crap, while way more egregious, did not link him to Washington. Also, Hillary did not have any message that resonated with people; thus she didn’t especially inspire anyone that wasn’t going to turn out for the Dem nominee whoever that would be.
What truly gripes me was that people on this blog argued endlessly about how she was more electable than Sanders, even against Trump. Totally ignoring that Sanders best quality from a rhetoric standpoint was his economic populism. A stance that would have negated Trump’s biggest strength among the white working class voters in places like PA, MI, WI, and OH. Sanders inspired people that might not have otherwise voted. Hillary was competent, and a hard worker, but she does not have that quality, whatever it is, that her husband, and Obama have that translates into being an inspirational leader.
We could have had a nominee that was a true progressive, but too many people, like the ones on this site, were afraid of something new, and wanted to stick with what they saw as the “safe choice”, even if they identified more with the policy aspirations of Sanders. Well you still ended up with something new, and I doubt it will be the kind of new anyone is gonna like.
Arclite
My state did, but I live in a reliably Dem state. I think what happened is that people lied to the pollsters. Interview polls are the most reliable, and people were embarrassed to admit they were voting for him.
Politics and voting is all emotion and tribalism. There are studies proving this. That’s why an awful person like Trump can win.
OGLiberal
@NR: She has her warts, the email server was stupid, and some of her long time staffers are a bit too paranoid, but she ran a pretty damned good campaign that involved a lot of the folks who brought Obama to victory. Her campaign made few errors, all her “scandals” were years old and had no proof of wrongdoing. She handled the debates tremendously and had top notch surrogates. They paid attention to the right states – they were in Michigan at the end because they saw the same late movement the Trump folks did. (in fact, I don’t think the Trump folks saw it, they were just throwing a hail Mary – her folks saw it) There was no Mark Penn garbage, Bill’s gaffes were kept to a minimum and the Bernie Bros were much less vocal and idiotic than the PUMAs. The economy is much better than it was in 2012 when Obama won re-election. They had big time staff in all key states and very good GOTV. And they had an incumbent president with approval ratings higher than Reagan’s at the end of this second term.
The problem was that there was an unusual number of undecideds very late in the game, mostly in key states. Johnson and Stein actually carried more votes than I thought they would – in most cases their totals were close to the polling. So it seems that in the Midwest and, to a lesser extent, in NC and FL, a bunch of white dudes, most of whom only have a high school education, decided at the last minute that they couldn’t vote for a woman, especially one who was going to give free stuff to brown people. When I say white dudes with a high school education only I don’t mean unintelligent people or even low income/working class people. Could be a dude pulling in 150-200K a year from his building contracting business. But they are guys who – unlike me who has worked in a company with many women in top positions and who has had several female bosses – have never had a woman boss or peer. The concept of a woman president is alien to them. Throw in that she might give free stuff to brown folks and they decide late in the game to vote for the guy who joked about grabbing a woman’s privates, which to them was actually kind of funny – even though he sounds a bit unhinged and full of you-know-what. Obama was black but at least he was a dude. But a lady who is old and not a “hottie” like Sarah Palin? Nope, I’m voting for the dude I want to have a beer with.
Sadly, I don’t know how you combat that outside of lying to them that you are going to bring great manufacturing jobs back to a place where they will never return. And that’s what Trump did. He didn’t present a plan for how he would do that – just ragged in Mexico and Jyna and said he’d bring the jobs back bigly.
I’ll probably catch flak for this but white men (count me as one of them, about as white as they get) are a very big problem in this nation….and they aren’t going away.
Stan
@Cermet:
Whoa there.
Stan
@Brachiator: Obama’s opponent didn’t engage explicity in race baiting the way Trump did.
Brachiator
@Stan:
And so?
brendancalling
@The Dangerman: do not, do NOT get me started on the “left”, because if you do I’m gonna punch a Luke Cage sized hole through my front door.
I am so so so sick of the “left”. I want to punch each and every one of them in the fucking face right now. And that’s not even what i’d really like to do, which would involve quartering.
Brachiator
@OGLiberal:
This may not be true. The polling may not have registered the degree to which people had decided, but were not saying. Or the polls simply did not accurately reflect likely voters.
The wild card was the unpopularity of both candidates. This may have contributed to what you note is an unusual number of undecideds, or it may have caused the estimation of likely voters to be inaccurate.
Brachiator
@Cain:
Trump lies to them by saying that he will bring jobs back and stop other jobs from leaving.
The Democrats have to come up with a solution. And it has to be something other than “there will be some infrastructure jobs, but you may or may not get them or want them.”
Cain
@Brachiator:
I don’t think they can come up with anything. They can’t control the market. Even if they come back, those jobs are nothing like what it was in the 80s. It will be only a small percentage of what it was if they came back. Everything else would be automated. It is going to be really sucky for blue collar workers from here on in.
These people are going to drunkenly vote for one bombastic politican after another, looking for the person who will give them their jobs before they retire. Too bad when they do, they’ll find out that they got no social security because Paul Ryan killed it and they have vouchers now.. yay.
notoriousJRT
@Mikefromarlington:
The Supremes need only make 3, right since Trump can’t put anyone forward in an election year.
/snark
cokane
@NR: this seems an overly simplistic analysis of why Clinton faced few challengers. I don’t think the party actually “cleared the field.” Most ambitious Democrats assumed Clinton would run and be a tough candidate to beat. Politicians want to win above all else. Campaigning is tough, thankless work. Your personal life and your family becomes public, you spend your days on the road, you are constantly fudging the truth. Why put yourself through all that for what, a 10% chance of beating Clinton? This is especially true in a crowded field, where the one Dem with the most name recognition would have had even better odds.
Paul in KY
@Howard Appel: Me too, Howard.
Mike
@John Cole: Whenever a straight white male talks about how he’s going to manage his sanity after this election, it should be prefaced with “I have the privilege”
As in “I have the privilege of occupying myself with the new house and my daily life, and see where we go from here. Acting out now would just be pointless and accomplish nothing.”
Many are not so lucky…or at least at this point too fearful to exercise this simple basic right.
The Truffle
Let’s ignore the trollish nihilists coming into these threads to sneer. These people aren’t interested in constructive debate.
I wasn’t totally on Team Bernie OR Team Hillary, but I was okay with either. I still have a bad feeling that Bernie would’ve lost badly in the general OR been limited to a one-term president. I prefer him as a the Goldwater of progressives, energizing the base.