Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

🎶 Those boots were made for mockin’ 🎵

I wonder if trump will be tried as an adult.

And we’re all out of bubblegum.

Sadly, there is no cure for stupid.

Republicans in disarray!

I’ve spoken to my cat about this, but it doesn’t seem to do any good.

Putting aside our relentless self-interest because the moral imperative is crystal clear.

I see no possible difficulties whatsoever with this fool-proof plan.

You can’t attract Republican voters. You can only out organize them.

Let me eat cake. The rest of you could stand to lose some weight, frankly.

Putin dreamed of ending NATO, and now it’s Finnish-ed.

“I never thought they’d lock HIM up,” sobbed a distraught member of the Lock Her Up Party.

No offense, but this thread hasn’t been about you for quite a while.

Let’s finish the job.

Whoever he was, that guy was nuts.

Hot air and ill-informed banter

Russian mouthpiece, go fuck yourself.

In short, I come down firmly on all sides of the issue.

No Justins, No Peace

“What are Republicans afraid of?” Everything.

Yeah, with this crowd one never knows.

Sitting here in limbo waiting for the dice to roll

They fucked up the fucking up of the fuckup!

Take hopelessness and turn it into resilience.

You are here: Home / Organizing & Resistance / Don't Mourn, Organize / Friday Night Food Fight Open Thread: Howard Dean / Keith Ellison for the DNC?

Friday Night Food Fight Open Thread: Howard Dean / Keith Ellison for the DNC?

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From the Politico link:

SCHUMER BACKS ELLISON FOR DNC CHAIR — Soon-to-be Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer is backing Minnesota Rep. Keith Ellison to be the next head of the Democratic National Committee, a big boost for the Minnesota Democrat as the party searches for a new leader. Schumer spoke with Ellison Thursday afternoon and “supports him for chair,” according to a source close to Schumer, who added: “Without a Democratic White House, Schumer’s view is the DNC is where grassroots organizing in sync with leg battles should be organized.” Schumer’s nod comes as others like former DNC Chair Howard Dean have launched their own campaigns to run the embattled organization. Ellison, co-chair of the Congressional Progressive Caucus, hasn’t officially thrown his hat in the ring, though he has said he’ll make an announcement on Monday.

—Elizabeth Warren last night said on MSNBC that Ellison would make a “terrific” DNC chair, while she was cool to Dean’s bid. “I talked to him. Fine,” she told Rachel Maddow…

NYTimes writer sniffs disdainfully:

Pure provocateurism:

Reader Interactions

325Comments

  2. 2.

    Shalimar

    I like either of them as DNC chair. Dean’s lobbying for MEK is unnerving, but at least he wouldn’t be doing it anymore if he gets the DNC job, and I’m guessing most DC lobbyists have some clients who are a little skeevy. It would be nice to have the 50 state strategy back. Everything I know about Ellison is positive, so he would be great too.

  3. 3.

    Mnemosyne

    I’m coming around to thinking that being the head of the DNC should be a full-time job, not a side gig for a legislator. The head of the RNC does that full-time, AFAIK.

  4. 4.

    Miss Bianca

    Is it wrong or defeatist to say that I just don’t give a shit about the DNC right now? And that I’m skeptical that whatever the DNC’s “problems” are, that they need to be “solved” by getting Anyone Who’s Not One of Those Establishment Women! to be in charge?

  5. 5.

    Major Major Major Major

    Nobody but political junkies cares who the DNC chair is. So whoever will be competent at the job (which is not really ideological) and be best for party unity is fine by me. Does that mean giving a sop to the left side of the party? I don’t really care?

  7. 7.

    Dexter

    Elect whoever, even Donald the Duck or Mickey the Mouse will be OK. As long as he or she can figure out how to win midterms, local races in swing states or red states. Expand the map. It is nerve racking every 4 years or so to depend on the same 10 states for POTUS victory .

  8. 8.

    Felonius Monk

    Keith Ellison is a great choice as long as he’s willing to resign from his seat in Congress. No more elected officials in this job. No more part timers. That’s one of the reasons the DNC wound up in a mess.

  9. 9.

    andy

    BTW, coming back to Dean, I never understood why the Obama Administration didn’t want Dean to stick around when they came in. Seems to me that 50 state strategy would have really been handy in 2010…

  12. 12.

    Shalimar

    @Felonius Monk: I agree with something Corner Stone said earlier. The biggest problem with DWS wasn’t her having her Congressional seat too. Both jobs are 80% fundraising anyway, and have large staffs to carry out all the day-to-day work. The biggest problem was how she protected her Republican Florida neighboring Congresspersons from challenges. Fuck that shit. The DNC chair’s job is to try to win every seat in Congress.

  15. 15.

    James E Powell

    Note to Josh Barro. Howard Dean was only considered “left” because he allowed GLBT “civil unions” and opposed the Iraq invasion. Besides that he was a straight down the middle DLC governor who was endorsed by the NRA a few times. He comes from the very white state of Vermont.

    I was a Deaniac. I went to Iowa and Arizona for Howard Dean. His time was then. I want new people. No more Clinton Era veterans who are deft at triangulating and distancing and temporizing and every other thing that costs them the support of the Democratic base. I want somebody other than a white male who went to an Ivy League school.

  16. 16.

    WarMunchkin

    Dems are significantly majority women now, and whoever the leader of the party is should be a woman, full stop.

    If any men want to help out, we can do so without the title by doing the hard work for the party supporting our leadership. Also, nobody who is a sitting legislator.

  17. 17.

    James E Powell

    @andy:

    I never understood why the Obama Administration didn’t want Dean to stick around when they came in.

    Because Rahm Emanuel fucking hates Howard Dean.

  18. 18.

    Shalimar

    @Baud: Very true. I don’t see Ellison as the type of person to champion the payday loan industry, or anything similarly horrible. So I don’t really expect that to come up with him specifically.

  20. 20.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    It is critically important to have a Muslim in a high profile position to push back on Trump’s bigotry, bullying and ignorance

    You know, I agree, it makes it harder to hate someone they see is human.

  22. 22.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Mnemosyne: @Felonius Monk:It should be. If anyone asked me, I’d recommend having Ellison as Chair with Dean as Vice-Chair. The last time the Democrats had a successful 50 state approach Dean was the chair. This allows Ellison to run the show, with a strong and proven deputy who does full time when Ellison is doing his Congressional in session and constituency when not in session work. Best of both worlds.

  23. 23.

    Shalimar

    @James E Powell: If Rahm Emanuel had died in a plane crash sometime in late 2008, the U.S. as a whole and Chicago specifically would be in a lot better condition right now.

  24. 24.

    lamh36

    @Hal: Honestly I getting tired of folks with the “Michelle O” for Prez camp stuff. Leave the Obamas alone I say.

    Besides which, if white women didn’t even voter for HRC…one of their own over that sexist pig…why the hell would those same white women vote for Michelle?

    Fuq it, the Obamas have already done what they could to correct white folks mistakes…time for them folks to clean up their own messes…

  26. 26.

    Felonius Monk

    @Shalimar: DWS was a 3-pronged disaster. Indeed her worst sin was protecting her Republican pals. In addition she never gave the job the effort she should have because she already had a full time job as a Congressperson. And finally, she was a Clinton shill.

  27. 27.

    Rex

    Howard Dean was hammered when he said that he still wanted to be the party for the guys with the Confederate flags on the back of their pickup trucks. If you believe in redemption and rehabilitation, you need to believe that portion of the electorate can be persuaded. It could wind up winning an election or two.

  28. 28.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @lamh36:

    Honestly I getting tired of folks with the “Michelle O” for Prez camp stuff. Leave the Obamas alone I say.

    Cosign. She doesn’t want to be in politics and he’s given more than enough.

  29. 29.

    bluehill

    If Rence can be RNC chair, how important can it be to name someone now? I know these guys are capable of multitasking, but there are about 2 1/2 months before inauguration when there will be a slew bills introduced, judicial nominations and executive actions. Have they already figured out how they are going to respond? Just doesn’t seem like the most important task at this time.

  31. 31.

    lamh36

    @Miss Bianca: I’m where you. The only Dem pol I even liking right now is Harry Reid. To be honest, His statement on Trump was on fire and on pointe and was really one of a few things that made me smile and engaged. At least he seemed to understand that it’s not the marginalized who should have to make amends with that racist ass.

  33. 33.

    lamh36

    @Rex: Welp then I guess the same party can just go ahead and leave me out…I don’t want anything to do with anyone with a Confederate flag on their truck, car, home, or their ass…

    Fuq them and Fug their Confederate flag

  35. 35.

    Mnemosyne

    @Miss Bianca:

    I care. I want us to get all of our ducks in a row for 2018 so we’re ready to swoop in when the Republicans inevitably shit the bed between now and then.

    This voter suppression shit cost us an election where TWO MILLION more people voted for our candidate, and I am pissed off about that.

  36. 36.

    Jeffro

    @Baud:

    Are those the only two names being mentioned?

    They’re the only two I’ve heard. Is Harry Reid that committed to riding off into the sunset? The man does know how to rally the troops and deliver.

    ETA I see lamh36 is thinking the same as me, great minds and all that

    ETA2 schrodinger’s cat also there

    What do you say, Harry?

  39. 39.

    Hoodie

    Sounds like Ellison has the inside track, Dean is yesterday’s news. How much does the national DNC affect the state parties? Those seem to need the most work.

  40. 40.

    Mnemosyne

    Also, tonight is my night for mordant humor, so keep going if you’re not in the mood:

    I know people keep signing the petition to get the electoral college voters to be faithless and vote for Hillary, and it’s never, ever going to happen, but if by some bizarre chance it did, I want this to be her response.

  41. 41.

    Lizzy L

    @lamh36: This. Folks who call for Michelle Obama to run for office are not paying attention. She doesn’t want to. She probably wants to go find a place to live with her husband and daughters where she gets to pick out all the furniture and rugs, and where she can spend a little time helping her best friend unwind from having just done the hardest job in the world for eight years. And after that, maybe she wants to go be a lawyer again. Maybe she wants to write. Maybe she wants to garden. All three.

  44. 44.

    lamh36

    My biggest concern as the Obama presidency neared it’s end, was that the issues that that involved Black folk and people of color directly, would once again be put on the back pages. It’s no coincidence that with a Black President, the story about racism and bigotry would at least get pushed to the front and shown in the light rather than the dark.

    Do we really think the police before Obama became President was less brutal? Police brutality/discrimination was nothing new. But we had a President and a First family who looked like the people mostly targeted by this discrimination.

    I’m sure many of us had hoped that with another Dem President, even though we would expect still less stories about this type of social issue at the very least, a Dem President would be expected to care or at least fake the funk a bit.

    Now though, with the new NOTUS and HOTUS coming into office…I already expect to see less and less stories, blog posts, news article, etc about those issue involving racial discrimination, even on certain ally blogs I frequent. If there is one thing we have learned from the Obama years, diversity at the very least leads to more diversity in topics, in conversation and in discussions.

  45. 45.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Lizzy L: I want him to move to HI, live on the beach, grow dreads, and smoke dope for a couple of years and then come back and work on making the world a better place in whichever way he chooses.

  46. 46.

    Mnemosyne

    @Lizzy L:

    I think that, once Mrs. Obama takes a nice, long sabbatical, she’s going to keep doing a lot of the same stuff with kids and families that she was doing as First Lady. She really seemed to like it and she is great at it.

    Jimmy Carter, beloved as he is, can’t live forever. She’s going to have a post-First Lady career comparable to his.

  50. 50.

    laura

    @Felonius Monk: This. Keith Ellison should stay in the Legislature for the benefit of his constituency and the party.
    His duties, along with mandatory fund raising would leave little time for rebuilding the party and establishing a ground game.
    It should be a full time position and it should require the input from Ellison and avoid the ineptitude of a Wasserman-Schultz.

  51. 51.

    Peale

    @Felonius Monk: you forgot “in the pocket of payday lenders”. Seriously, though, she is a classic example of the one TV appearance progressive attack dog marvel who turns into piffle. I think that she made a few good attack dog tv appearances before she was on in the running for the gig. We loved her. Then she became chair and that “don’t unseat my good republican hike state friend” ruined it for everyone.

  52. 52.

    Mnemosyne

    Yeah, I’m definitely getting into that white-out mode where the dark humor just starts bubbling up. If you guys need me to knock it off, just tell me.

    So, what do you think Melania’s chosen cause is going to be? Eating disorders? Domestic violence? The heartbreak of psoriasis?

  55. 55.

    RealityBites

    @rikyrah: I’ve missed a lot of posts due to work/depression over the last couple days, so maybe this has already been discussed. My understanding is that the exit polls say HRC won and that exit polls are considered t o have extreme accuracy. This would mean that a large number of votes weren’t counted for some reason. (Conditional ballots, damaged, something else…) This information, plus the immense number of voters purged from the rolls and the application of racist ID laws mean the election was stolen. If we aren’t allowed to vote, or if our votes aren’t counted, how do we succeed? Have others here also concluded the election was stolen? Do we have hard data about how many votes were suppressed/denied. Are exit polls only considered “wrong” when they show Democrats winning? (Gore). I saw that the US refused to accept an election in Ukraine because the exit polls showed the official result to be a lie. Has Adam looked at the national security implications of this? Has Major Major Major Major or any of our other smart geeks done an analysis? How do we bring back fair elections with the rethugs in power?

  56. 56.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Hoodie: If it doesn’t, it needs to. I’ve lived in five different states and the Democratic Party in at least four of them is useless. I’m not saying it has to be completely top down, but the state parties need to have someone looking over their shoulders and doing quality assurance/quality control (QA/QC) in terms of making sure that there is a candidate for every office in every election, that they’re quality even if their novices, that they’re supported, and that potential staffers for these folks if they’re elected, as well as strategists and policy specialists are groomed and ready to go to support during elections and to work as staffs once they’re over.

  57. 57.

    Hal

    @lamh36: Yeah, I know. I’ve said as much myself, but so much talent, and in such a time of need. I still think Michelle Obama could overcome. But I’m also the person who has said for years that she and Barack deserve their retirement. Plus, Samantha Bee is spot on:

    “Once you dust for prints, it’s pretty clear who ruined America, white people. I guess ruining Brooklyn was just a dry run.”

    “The Caucasian nation showed up in droves to vote for Trump, so I don’t want to hear a goddamn word about black voter turnout. How many times do we expect black people to build our country for us?”

  60. 60.

    laura

    @rikyrah: Genius! I agree with you, he’d be great.
    An industrial and labor platform would also be a message to build a ground game around.

  61. 61.

    Adam L Silverman

    @lamh36: I fully expect Manchin to declare himself an independent and caucus with the GOP majority. If he does, he should NOT be allowed to come back and caucus with them if the Democrats retake the majority.

  62. 62.

    Felonius Monk

    @Peale: Oh, I didn’t forget the payday lender thing, but that was in her role as a Congresscritter not DNC chair. And I agree, she was a good attack dog for awhile, then she ran amok.

  64. 64.

    Emerald

    @Mnemosyne: And NC.

    Indeed. California has 4.6 million ballots still to count according to the LA Times. Read somewhere that it should move her up to 51-52% of the popular vote, which is Obama territory.

    She didn’t frikkin’ “lose.”

    I will say though, if that percentage turns out to be true, it ought to be a major argument against whatever shit trump* tries to do. He won legally but not legitimately, if I can put it that way, um, legitimately.

    (*I no longer capitalize his name. Waste of electronic ink.)

  65. 65.

    Miss Bianca

    I don’t know. I’m in a strange place between utter despair and defiance,with sick joke-making being my go-to defensive crouch. But I am a member of my county’s Democratic Central Committee, and our next meeting is this Monday.

    And I have no idea….where the fuck we go from here. And at this point, I’m almost ready to say, “who the hell is the DNC, again? Are they supposed to be waving some kind of wand and help us make a bunch of white crackers out here in the sticks forget how much they hate the government? And that Democrats are the only ones interested in actually, you know, governing, so you know, fuck them?” Government is bad, and Republicans hate government too, so vote for *them*! How are we supposed to prevail against that kind of cognitive dissonance?

    Honest to dog, I’m almost to the point of saying, “with a citizenry this fucked up,wouldn’t it just be easier to dissolve the people and elect another?” (unlike Brecht, I’m not being ironic).

  66. 66.

    Felonius Monk

    @lamh36: Manchin has given indications that he will side with the majority party. He is in essence no longer a Democrat (if he ever really was one) and should not be regarded as one.

    You are spot on F*ck Joe.

  67. 67.

    Mary G

    @lamh36: Yeah, I am sick of Michelle Obama being offered up for jobs by internet commenters. She has carried more water for Dems than a thousand other people. She even hated her husband’s running for Senator, because politics took him away from the family so much. She knows who to call if she eventually decides she wants to do something, but for now just let her rest and catch her breath.

  68. 68.

    lamh36

    @RealityBites: the exit polls were wrong…so either White Trump voters LIED…or the pollster were just completely wrong.

    My money is on the white folks lied…

    During a panel discussion on MSNBC, former RNC chairman Michael Steele argued that Donald Trump’s divisive campaign was not a harbinger of how he would govern.

    “That campaign was based on hate,” Hughley interrupted. “America saw exactly who it was last night… Exactly who we are.”

    “I think Obama was what we aspire to be, Trump and his supporters are who we are,” the comedian lamented. “People said things, and those polls were so off and that meant that people were not being truthful. They said one thing and they did another.”

    “And that to me is the crux,” he insisted. “We have to accept who we are in order to evolve.”

    D.L Hughley tells America to come to grips: ‘Obama was what we aspire to be, Trump is who we are’

  69. 69.

    Major Major Major Major

    @RealityBites: the polls were off somewhere around two standard deviations, which is well within the realm of possibility but by definition unlikely (less than five percent). That plus voter ID laws or, in the case of North Carolina, straight-up suppression, was just barely enough.

    Exit pollsters tend to talk to the enthusiastic people, IIRC.

  71. 71.

    Felonius Monk

    @lamh36:

    she’s already said…cyber-bullying….the irony was NOT lost on most of us

    I guess that means she will be a work-at-home mom.

  72. 72.

    Mnemosyne

    @RealityBites:

    Here’s the scoop, but it’s not going to make you feel better. Short version: Trump’s win is legal, but not fair.

    Remember back in 2012 when Karl Rove had an on-air meltdown because the firewall states — Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Ohio — went to Obama, not Romney? Turns out that he had pre-rigged those states with suppressive Voter ID laws that were supposed to prevent Democrats from voting, but they weren’t quite in place yet, so it didn’t work.

    This year, they worked just like they were supposed to work in 2012, but they benefited Trump. Basically, they set a booby-trap back in 2012, and we got caught by it in 2016 because we didn’t take it seriously enough. And, frankly, the more I think about it, the more pissed off I get.

    So we need to start getting prepared for 2018 right about now so our candidates will be ready to run when the Republicans inevitably shit the bed and voters are looking to throw the bums out. And a huge part of that prep needs to be figuring out a way around these discriminatory laws that nonetheless have so far been upheld by the courts.

  73. 73.

    smintheus

    Howard Dean was never a “leftist”. He was a business-fluffing centrist. Vermonters tried to tell you folks this back in 2003, but nobody was listening.

  77. 77.

    Brachiator

    Howard Dean as head of DNC? No. He’s too old. Ellison is better, but as others have noted, having someone on board who can be a full time leader is better still.

    I want to see new blood, not a recycling of stale establishment figures.

  78. 78.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Peale: @lamh36: He’s already refuted the reporting that I was referencing:
    http://www.wsaz.com/content/news/Senator-Manchin-refutes-speculation-of-a-party-switch–400628491.html

    Fox News tweeted, “Senator Joe Manchin said he’s not committed to staying a Democrat if it’s a 50-50 Senate.”

    Wednesday, Manchin told WSAZ that’s simply not true, and he says he was surprised to hear it brought up.

    “That’s what goes on in Washington and I guess New York and the pundits,” Manchin said. “I thought they had enough drama last night they didn’t need to bring me into it, but I heard they did, and they started calling me, and I said ‘no way.’ ”

    Many West Virginia voters have felt disenfranchised with Democrats on the national level, blaming federal regulations for a suffering coal industry.

    Manchin is still distancing himself from some of his Democratic colleagues in the nation’s capital.

    “I’m a West Virginia Democrat,” Manchin said. “I’m not a Washington Democrat. We’re a little different. I don’t subscribe to all of this very liberal, extreme liberal — I’m a centrist, moderate conservative Democrat.”

    Manchin also says he’s not someone who denies that the climate’s being affected.

    The former governor said he disagrees with President Obama’s energy policy. He says he thinks President-Elect Donald Trump will embrace an energy policy to use all the resources we have in the cleanest way possible.

    Manchin is up for re-election in 2018.

  84. 84.

    Miss Bianca

    @Brachiator: well you know what? There is no “new blood”. That’s part of the problem. So maybe, an “old establishment figure” who has been around, knows the ropes, knows what we’re up against, and has a mandate to *cultivate* that “new blood” is what we need. Seriously, what kind of “new blood” are we talking about? Someone like Angry White Boy Zach that Mistermix was fluffing here the other night?

    @WarMunchkin: Oh, great. That’s all we need.

  86. 86.

    Lizzy L

    I’ve been reading the WaPo articles about how Trump is pulling back from his more extreme positions. Maybe there won’t be a wall. Maybe he won’t ask Congress to appoint a special prosecutor to go after Hillary Clinton.

    It’s pretty clear to me what’s happening. Trump is a narcissist who can be easily persuaded to take positions; policy is not what he cares about. The biggest thing in the world to him is being admired, i. e. protecting his own ego. So he sits down with Barack Obama, one of the world’s most graceful, reasonable, and astute orators, for an hour and a half, and BO persuades him to moderate some of his positions. Tomorrow Steve Bannon or his son-in-law or Rudy will get him in a room and talk to him, and he’ll do a complete 180. It’s going to be like this All The Time. Trumpland is going to be Chaos Central.

  91. 91.

    Gin & Tonic

    How much does the DNC matter?

    Raise your hand if you’ve been to a Democratic Party meeting in your jurisdiction in the last decade. Raise your hand if you even know whether there has been one.

  93. 93.

    dogwood

    @Hoodie:
    The DNC and the RNC aren’t that powerful. And state parties are weaker than they used to be as well. A lot of that stems from the emergence of the primary/caucus system where voters have the greatest role in choosing nominees. They raise money and try to disperse it as effectively as possible, and organize conventions. Working at the DNC is a thankless job. Howard Dean gets credit as a great chair, but the credit for ’06 goes to W. I doubt that Rahm had anything to do with Dean not getting a job in the Obama administration. He’s a bit of an egomaniac and can be a loose cannon as well. Not Obama’s kind of guy.
    And as for DWS, she does deserve credit for organizing a great Convention.

  97. 97.

    Felonius Monk

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Fuck you, Bernie!

    I’m so hoping that Vermont can find a really good Dem to run against him next time so we get someone the party can depend on.

  101. 101.

    Peale

    @Gin & Tonic: I wanted to go, but it seemed full of “insiders” ;). Although honestly I’d probably just start hurling insults at the soon to be indicted township chair. Putz! He’s a putz!

  103. 103.

    Mnemosyne

    @Lizzy L:

    Ditto. Trump is not going to be able to make up his mind about anything, and every policy is going to be whipped around 180 degrees every few days.

    Yet another reason for Democrats to get our ducks in a row NOW.

  104. 104.

    schrodinger's cat

    @Omnes Omnibus: I was at a coffee shop this afternoon, overheard a Berniebro explaining to his female friend that he who shall note be named won because the Dems went with her instead of the Senator Crazy Hair from Vermont. I so wanted to throw my coffee in his stupid smug face.

  105. 105.

    Miss Bianca

    @Gin & Tonic: err…me…(waves paw)

    But our state just voted overwhelmingly to replace caucuses with completely open primaries. Because all those “independents” who just couldn’t be arsed to commit to a party were so mad at being shut out from the process. Now, I can understand people not liking caucuses for all the legitimate reasons they cite, but at least they got you out every four years to meet other Democrats if you didn’t go out and do it any other way. Now, the parties are going to be even more irrelevant than ever, so, yeah…what difference is it going to make, again, who the DNC chair is?

  106. 106.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Seems to me that 50 state strategy would have really been handy in 2010…

    “50 state strategy” was a slogan, and a decent one, but there were a few other things that were going on in 2006, and preceding years, that caused the ’06 Dem waves, and that were no longer huge factors in 2010. And a couple of things that happened after 2006, that were.

  109. 109.

    lamh36

    @lamh36:

    David Axelrod is a former advisor to President Barack Obama who has been critical of Hillary Clinton, but tonight he flat-out defended Donald Trump. During an appearance on HBO’s Real Time, he told Bill Maher and the assembled panel he didn’t think the President-elect was racist.

    Recording artist John Legend was on hand to tell him that he thinks inciting racially-motivated violence is pretty racist.

    “It’s not just impolite,” Legend said of Trump’s rhetoric. “It’s threatening people’s lives. If you think Mexicans come into this country to rape and murder your family, that means their life is threatened.”

    Axelrod responded, “The thing that I find offensive is I don’t think Donald Trump is a racist.”

    “I don’t care if he is!” Legend said, pointing out that he incites racial violence either way.

    Axelrod said that Trump is merely an opportunist who exploited other people’s racism.

    Newsflash David…using people racism to incite racial violence and

  110. 110.

    Emerald

    @WarMunchkin: Oh jeez.

    I can’t stand even to look at it. What basically did he say?

    Or maybe you shouldn’t tell. Don’t think I can cope with that right now. My sis is a committed Berniebot who is certain the primaries were rigged against him and certain that Hillary is a “corportist” (whatever that’s supposed to be) and certain that Bernie would have won easily.

    I mean, I can’t even talk to her about anything close to the subject because she has a meltdown even if I don’t say anything ON that subject. She anticipates that I will, and starts screaming.

    So if that man’s ego is erupting yet again, I may never get my sis back. Whom I love.

  111. 111.

    Aleta

    “getting prepared for 2018 right about now so our candidates will be ready to run “@Mnemosyne: I expect the R-controlled branches of government will set to work right away on policies and appointments that will allow more voter supression. I expect that is one area they will come together on. Unless we can pressure and support the few moderate Republicans in Congress to stand up to the American Enterprise-type agenda, I don’t have much hope right now. But I’m probably missing something, such as the fine points of politics.

  115. 115.

    Peale

    @Emerald: I assume “corporatist” means she spends too much time in the boardrooms and not enough time with the people. At least I hope so.

  118. 118.

    Emerald

    @Felonius Monk: Well Al Giordano was saying that was going to do it.

    I think that was just kind of a joke that accidentally turned into something closer to reality. Al hasn’t said yet if he’s really gonna do it.

    We’re all waiting to find out.

  119. 119.

    Jeffro

    @Mnemosyne:

    Yeah, I’m definitely getting into that white-out mode where the dark humor just starts bubbling up. If you guys need me to knock it off, just tell me.

    I hear you. Out of nowhere this afternoon, it dawned on me that the two maddest people in the USA this week were Mitt Romney and Jeb Bush…”You mean, that’s all I had to do? Just run off at the mouth constantly and embrace the foulest elements of society? And I’d be president right now???”

    Ok, not really funny, but…kinda…

  120. 120.

    Lizzy L

    @Aleta: No, you’re absolutely right. Elections are organized at the state level, so all the R-state governments are going to be working on voter-suppression like crazy, at all levels, from school boards to transit boards to city councils to state legislators to mayors… you get the idea. They know that Democrats need to find and support the next generation of Democratic politicians, and they’re going to do everything they can to stifle that.

  121. 121.

    Mnemosyne

    @lamh36:

    We really need to get my fellow white people beyond this weird notion that racism is some kind of internal thing and you’re not really racist if you’re not racist in your hearrrrrt.

    If you take racist actions, or say racist things, you’re a racist. Period. Full stop. I don’t give a shit why you did it. In fact, doing it out of opportunism instead of sincere belief is even worse.

  122. 122.

    smintheus

    @Omnes Omnibus: Are there reports of anybody without an ID being turned away? I don’t think voter suppression is going to fly as the explanation here in PA. Turnout was around 75% in PA. The weather was perfect as well. And Dems won all the statewide offices except Toomey’s challenger, who was pretty underwhelming as a candidate. Hillary somehow managed to lose this state on her own.

  125. 125.

    dogwood

    @Omnes Omnibus:
    Bernie Sanders (Socialist/Vermont) is our New Democratic ratfucker in the Senate. He replaces former Democratic ratfucker, Joe Lieberman (Neo-Con/Connecticut).

  126. 126.

    Jeffro

    @Mnemosyne:

    Turns out that he had pre-rigged those states with suppressive Voter ID laws that were supposed to prevent Democrats from voting, but they weren’t quite in place yet, so it didn’t work.

    This year, they worked just like they were supposed to work in 2012, but they benefited Trump. Basically, they set a booby-trap back in 2012, and we got caught by it in 2016 because we didn’t take it seriously enough. And, frankly, the more I think about it, the more pissed off I get.

    So we need to start getting prepared for 2018 right about now so our candidates will be ready to run when the Republicans inevitably shit the bed and voters are looking to throw the bums out. And a huge part of that prep needs to be figuring out a way around these discriminatory laws that nonetheless have so far been upheld by the courts

    3 step program, with a 4th step constantly running in the background:
    1) Get out and go door to door, mall to mall, starting next week, registering anyone who isn’t already a registered R.
    2) Make sure these folks have the required ID on them, or walk them through how to get it, well in advance of the next several elections
    3) GOTV in the 72 hours leading up to election day.

    The 4th? Be constantly beating on the media and Republicans about how unfair it is that voting is so hard in this country, when only 31 cases out of a billion turn out to be voter fraud. Like, hammer the SHIT out of that fact.

  130. 130.

    RaflW

    @James E Powell: I suppose I appreciate whatever drove Rahm Emanuel to help Obama get elected. But beyond that, I want nothing to do with him. That he opposed Dean adds to my perception that Rahm is an egomaniac and can’t elevate broader Dem strategy above his own personal urges.

    I have lots of respect for my Rep Keith Ellison. And there could be some very good things about having a black Muslim American as head of the DNC. For one thing, Keith understands that we need to fund lots of house races and that in swing states we have to run up the numbers even in safe seats so that the big margins bring statewide race chances — ie: he always wants massive turnout for his run so that MN can retain a Dem Governor.

    I also think it’s a good idea for a leader from the Progressive wing to have a shot. Centrist Dems as a strategy has sucked since basically WJC won his second term in ’96. (Sure Obama is temperamentally a centrist Dem, but he never really ran as one.)

    I am quite open to a newer, fresher face that Keith, too. Who have we got?

  132. 132.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @smintheus: Leave PA out then. I am not married to Mnem’s complete theory. WI, MI and OH matter. They drop Trump under what he needs to win. Without them, he gets 246. Voter fucking suppression mattered.

  134. 134.

    msdc

    @Mnemosyne: Yeah, this. Making the chair of the DNC a part-time gig was one of the huge mistakes of the DWS reign (second only to making DWS the chair of the DNC).

    That’s my only qualm about Ellison; otherwise he seems fine.

  135. 135.

    cckids

    @lamh36: Thank you! I’ve said for years, why in the world do people think that Michelle wants any sort of political office?? She’s never given any sort of indication that she’s interested.

  136. 136.

    dww44

    @rikyrah: Agree. On LOD show he had, among other guests, Mark Thomas (? is that right) from Sirius Radio who opined that he thought Democrats should not have conceded so quickly, that there were too many states where the vote was so close and stuff is percolating up about voter suppression/intimidation at the polls.

    Yeah, it could be conspiracy theorizing, but there is still something just not right about how this election turned out. The guy who was complaining that it was rigged and the EC was a disaster for Democracy wins and the “go high” party ends up being boxed in, according to LOD.. Even the Trump voters, as in the bubble as most of them are (Fox, you know) sorta are super defensive about their victory and highly resentful of the ongoing street demonstrations. Deep down they know there’s something not quite right about it, while they refuse to accept the legitimacy of those demonstrations. The authoritarian impulse in play here.

  139. 139.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Jeffro: to Governor Romney’s credit he came out and denounced the Trump racism back in July. Called Trumpism trickle down racism.

  140. 140.

    Mike G

    Need a fifty State strategy and tech rehab. I am in for chairman again.
    — Howard Dean

    Remember those quaint days of 2004 when yelling a celebratory exclamation into a microphone in a loud and crowded room was enough to end a presidential candidacy? CNN played that clip sixy-jillion times. This year they hired an embedded Trump campaign operative to make sure their coverage was as sycophantic and pleasing to the protofascist orangutan as possible.

  141. 141.

    dww44

    @msdc: I talked to our local county party chair today and mentioned Sanders’ online campaign to gin up support to Ellison;he says we need a DNC chair whose full time job is DNC chair.

  142. 142.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Peale: A couple of key counties/districts that are overwhelmingly white by demographic went from voting Obama to voting Trump. Specifically Butler County. And the suburban white women in Bucks County (not people experiencing economic anxiety) did not vote for Clinton they way they were expected to. Rather, they voted for Trump.

  143. 143.

    Felonius Monk

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    WI, MI and OH matter.

    In 2012, Jill Stein got just under 22,000 votes in Michigan. In 2016, she got over 50,000 votes. Trump beat Hillary by a little over 13,000 votes. My point being that while there may have been voter suppression in Michigan, it might not have been that significant.

  145. 145.

    Mnemosyne

    @dww44:

    I’m open to adding other fuckery to my theory. If the Russian hackers figured out they only had to screw with selected states or even counties rather than the whole damn thing …

  147. 147.

    Jeffro

    @Adam L Silverman: I remember it well and credit Romney for it.

    Still funny…just a little…to think of him smacking his forehead and thinking, “THAT’s it? I just had to disgrace myself and drag the whole country through my damaged psyche for a year, and I’d be president?!?”

  150. 150.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Jeffro: I don’t agree with Governor Romney, as he positioned himself in 2012, on much, but its pretty clear that he’s not a bigot. Even if they can’t seem to get the speech software patched to run without glitches.

  151. 151.

    WarMunchkin

    @Mnemosyne: Computers aren’t Harry Potter – these things are relatively secure and well-designed. Yes, mismarking mistakes happen with optical scanners, but there is nothing even close to suggesting that there is foreign network access on voting machines or results reporting. Please stop suggesting or spreading conspiracy theories. I’m burned by the 2004 diebold nonsense.

  153. 153.

    Suzanne

    I really like Dr. Dean, but I think Ellison is the better choice for this political moment. I think we need to own our brand as the party of and for diversity. I think that we need to be the party of urban and cosmpolitan, multi-identity, the party of younger people, and the party of just plain cool. I think that we need to own liberal bomb-throwing. Brand brand brand. Remember, positions and views and policies and results didn’t matter in this election. Trump is a shitty businessman, but he is devastatingly good at managing his image.

  156. 156.

    Jeffro

    @Mike G:

    Remember those quaint days of 2004 when yelling a celebratory exclamation into a microphone in a loud and crowded room was enough to end a presidential candidacy? CNN played that clip sixy-jillion times.

    Yup. IOKIYAR. Probably not a bad comparison to highlight in a letter to the editor ;)

    Every single thing Trump said and did this cycle would have killed Hillz and most any other Democrat. I mean, “earth tones” Gore = they were merciless. “Follow me, you’ll be bored” Hart = they did, and they weren’t. Meanwhile a certain sleaze from the Bronx releases no tax returns, ever; works with the Russians; and has an affair with a Playboy centerfold AFTER he’s married his THIRD wife and had a kid, resulting in a TABLOID paying the centerfold off…

    …let’s just say it’s deplorable.

  158. 158.

    Jeffro

    @Adam L Silverman: Right – agreed. He’d be saying it sarcastically to himself and shaking his head. It’s not a slam on him, more like him waking up and realizing what a majority of his party is willing to support in the service of their, ahem, “economic anxiety”

  160. 160.

    Mnemosyne

    @WarMunchkin:

    I was joking. Mostly. There was more than enough Republican fuckery that we didn’t have to import it.

    I still can’t help thinking of it as a booby trap that went off unexpectedly, because even Trump’s team seemed caught by surprise. Didn’t anyone at the RNC tell him this was in place? Did Comey’s last-minute Emily Litella act with Congress make that big of a difference? We may never know.

  161. 161.

    Major Major Major Major

    If somebody was going to hack this election they would have DDoS’d something like the Colorado Secretary of State website which would have completely, and i mean completely halted voting statewide because of the way they set it up this year.

  162. 162.

    GrandJury

    No more Howard Dean. No more Sanders and his annoying Sandernistas. I think Chelsea is great butno more Clintons either. Too soon.

    Time for all new blood I think.

  167. 167.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Simon Maloy ‏@ SimonMaloy 32m32 minutes ago
    our new president is Max Bialystock coming to the panicked realization that he has a hit play

    “where did I go right?”

  168. 168.

    Peale

    @dogwood: I guess the annoying thing is that he claims he is going to be announcing reforms to the Democratic Party. Again, I don’t think it’s being “corporatist” or beholden to special interests for the party to say “thank you” and move on.

  170. 170.

    Felonius Monk

    @Major Major Major Major:

    Not a super meaningful data point.

    I disagree. Stein got more than double the votes this time compared to 2012. I really doubt that the Greens grew that much. I believe that many of those votes were disaffected voters who chose to vote for Stein instead of Hillary. And if they had voted for Clinton, she would have won Michigan.

    I’m not saying that there wasn’t voter suppression in Mich., there probably was. But it could have been overcome if many of the Stein votes went to Hillary instead. She only needed to pickup 14,000 – 15,000 of those votes to beat Trump there.

  173. 173.

    Suzanne

    @Mnemosyne: YES. I am ashamed that I only had this “revaluation” a few months ago, but I realized that the right wing truly doesn’t understand what we mean when we say something is racist or sexist (or any of the other “-ist”s). They think it means “personal animus/burning hatred for someone of another race”. They don’t realize that it’s never been about feelings or personal relations—many racists truly do know and care about other people of different races on a personal level. Racism is about the power structure. If you’re supporting and reinforcing the hierarchy, then you’re racist.

    I encounter a lot of Christians especially who seem to think that personal acts of kindness and generosity are the truest indicators of character. Bullshit. Even troglodytes can muster that for the people they know and encounter. It’s what you do for the people you don’t know, who you may never even see, but who need your support that really indicates what kind of person you are, because there’s no cookie. Being kind and generous to a friend or a neighbor feels good because there’s an exchange, you get some sort of emotional reward. A kindness for someone you’ll likely never encounter doesn’t allow you to bask in the glow of self-satisfaction. Voting is one of the best ways to show respect and care for those people you’ll never meet, but the Christianists justify voting like a bunch of dicks by saying that they do nice things for people they know.

    Barf.

  175. 175.

    Major Major Major Major

    @GrandJury: some folks thought that, but to me the problem with that theory is that it’s not readily evident what you can do with that kind of attack that would do anything other than cause general chaos, except for really specific cases like in CO.

  176. 176.

    Eljai

    @Adam L Silverman: See, that’s what has me flummoxed. According to some progressives I’ve been reading, as long as Democrats are unapologetically progressive, we can win. So I’m watching Zephyr Teachout tell Chris Hayes how angry voters were in her district, but they’re not necessarily racist. Teachout followed the Bernie Sanders MO, and she’s a self-described FDR Democrat. And she lost. In an almost all white NY district. Further, rust belt populist, Russ Feingold, lost his election in Wisconsin and he got less votes in his own state than Hillary got there. I guess what I’m saying is that maybe there are many reasons why Democrats, even very progressive ones, lose, and we have to address this on many levels: voter suppression, turnout, and, yes, racism.

  177. 177.

    Lyrebird

    @lamh36: ROCK ON!

    I know there’s a new thread upstairs… I just hope the BJ writers & commentariat can help me focus a bit. My head is spinning with all the burning issues, incl moving *forward* and not back in recognizing the human rights and dignity of Black people, at risk right now.

    Thinking of writing a letter to the ACLU – I liked their opening salvo. But how can ordinary citizens help, e.g. protect against deportation so forth?

    So rock on bc we all need each other, is what I’m trying to say…

  180. 180.

    Mandalay

    @WarMunchkin:

    Bernie has already written an I told you so Op-Ed in the NYT.

    And good for him, because he did really tell them so. He precisely stated the actual outcome to the DNC last year – he told them that they would lose the presidency, Congress and SCOTUS if they didn’t have a candidate who could excite voters and boost turnout.

    He was correct in every respect. Why the fuck shouldn’t he be doing an I told you so? It’s not his fault that the DNC were too busy putting their finger on the scales to pay him any attention.

  181. 181.

    Felonius Monk

    @Eljai:

    Teachout followed the Bernie Sanders MO, and she’s a self-described FDR Democrat. And she lost

    You’re damn right she lost. She never had a chance. It’s a RED district. The Repub was retiring and her opponent was a well known Repub that was previously in the NYS Assembly and was heavily supported by the NY Repub organization. He is a long time resident of that district —- She was a carpetbagger. Everybody knew she was wasting her time. She lost by 10 points.

  182. 182.

    Miss Bianca

    @Mnemosyne: this is true. However, I think – thanks forthe congrats, by the way – that it would be premature to say that CO “went blue”. Basically, no changes in the electoral pattern – Dem seats stayed Dem, Repub seats stayed Repub. Very disappointed because I was hoping we could turn CO-3 back to Dems – John Salazar held that seat until 2010, when the Big Upset went thru’. Thought we had a chance at turning it back.

  183. 183.

    BlueDWarrior

    @Eljai: also, some of it might be an honest admission that quite a bit of the electorate isn’t as amenable to liberals as we’d like. That doesn’t mean we have to be mealy mouthed centrists or conservatives, but it does mean message calibration needs to be improved per constituency.

  185. 185.

    dww44

    @Felonius Monk: I saw that interview too. She also mentioned that a couple of the super-pac dark money guys brought in 1/2 million or so to run ads against her. She called them by name. One was Mercer. She also said that this was a district carried comfortably by Obama in the previous election?

  186. 186.

    Suzanne

    @Mandalay: I voted for Bernie in the primary, but the dude is being more than a bit self-aggrandizing. It’s like he thinks that the only person who could excite voters and boost turnout was…..him. What a coincidence.

    He would have lost to Trump, too. I firmly believe that the Jewish atheist would also have had his ass handed to him by Two Corinthians, because this is always about personal brand. The white racists who feel bad because they’re judged sooooooo harshly by the “elites” for being white racists were magnetized by the brand ANGRY DOUCHE.

  188. 188.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Eljai: I think Ms. Teachout is a smart woman and on the right side of many issues. Unfortunately she doesn’t seem to be able to win a campaign. I think there’s something else important going on: this was a low turnout election, like 2004. Almost as many voters didn’t vote as voted for either Secretary Clinton or President Elect Trump. That, itself, is not good. There is no doubt that the voter suppression activities in NC, OH, and WI all contributed. I imagine that NC, which is still in court on their efforts is going to find a very, very unhappy judge when they have their next court date. It also didn’t help that almost 90,000 Michiganders (are women from Michigan Michigeese?) filled out complete ballots – every position, every initiative, with one exception: they did not vote for anyone for President. Secretary Clinton lost Michigan by about 13,000 votes or so if I’m recalling correctly.

    There are a lot of moving pieces here, both in regards to presidential elections, as well as elections over all. that need to be dealt with. One is the voter suppression stuff. Another is turnout. Another, for Congressional and state legislative races, is gerrymandering. We are in dire need of some comprehensive election reforms. This is separate from identifying both potential candidates and the strategists/policy specialists and staffers to support them/work for and with them, growing, grooming, and developing them into every higher levels of office.

  189. 189.

    Mnemosyne

    @Mandalay:

    And by “finger on the scales,” you mean, “3 million more Democrats voted for Hillary than for him,” right?

    (Fixed. Pronoun trouble.)

    I’m still waiting for one of you guys to explain how the Jewish Socialist beats the anti-Semitic white supremacist. So far, the only answer I’ve gotten is the enthusiasm! but if you think those megachurch attendees were going to vote for a Jewish man, you’re living in a dream world.

  190. 190.

    msdc

    @Mandalay:

    He precisely stated the actual outcome to the DNC last year – he told them that they would lose the presidency, Congress and SCOTUS if they didn’t have a candidate who could excite voters and boost turnout.

    Even if this were true, what difference would it make if Sanders did “tell the DNC”? They didn’t choose the nominee, the voters did – something every Bernie bro who views the election primarily as a prime gloating opportunity tends to forget.

  192. 192.

    Miss Bianca

    @Mandalay: yeah, and the fact that he jumped on the “corruption corruption corruption” bandwagon and slagged the DNC and basically did every fucking thing he could think oft put his own thumb on the scale, was a sore loser who encouraged his supporters to consider themselves robbed and aggrieved, and a grudging supporter at best when he was needed, didn’t have *anything* to do with trashing the Democrats’ chances. Of course not. Such a gracious, helpful man – so modest and humble. Not tooting his own horn, just earnestly and helpfully pointing out that mistakes were made, but not by him.

    Why shouldn’t he write an “I told you so”? Because it’s a classless act. By a small, classless man. He’s the Joe Lieberman of the left.

  195. 195.

    Felonius Monk

    @Miss Bianca:

    By a small, classless man. He’s the Joe Lieberman of the left.

    Well, at least Lieberman was a Democrat for most of his political career. Bernie not so much.

  197. 197.

    Suzanne

    @BlueDWarrior: Absolutely. Progressives are a minority. To keep a coalition capable of winning elections together, we have to stop purity-testing the candidates. This one’s too close to Wall Street, this one’s too hawkish, etc. Most voters don’t care. This is not the right strategy in the era of the Kardashians and social media. Obama was awesome at knitting his coalition together into a single great, uplifting story, and people felt proud and cool and good about themselves being a part of it. That’s why he won, and that’s why all of us love him still, despite policy differences or failures. HRC is waaaay too nerdy for that shit. That’s why she lost. She thought this was going to be decided on real and measurable criteria. No. We need excitement and modernity and style and vibrance. That energy will be a magnet for a lot of the people who stayed home,on Election Day.

  198. 198.

    Major Major Major Major

    @Miss Bianca: I have many friends who said, 12-14 months ago, that they were supporting Bernie to send a message but would happily vote and work for Hillary in the general. By this summer, many were very, very begrudgingly willing to vote for that corrupt bitch.

  199. 199.

    Eljai

    @Felonius Monk: Thanks for mentioning that. I just came across a New Yorker article in which Zephyr Teachout blamed her loss on dark money. I do agree that dark money is a problem in politics, but it sounds like she had other issues to overcome, and she was not able to do that.

  200. 200.

    Mnemosyne

    @Adam L Silverman:

    The on the ground report I got from the Detroit area is that white voters were pissed off about Black Lives Matter and didn’t like how Obama and Hillary were coddling them.

    But I’m sure it was just their economic anxiety talking.

  202. 202.

    Mandalay

    @Felonius Monk:

    Maybe so, but Bernie sure as hell was not that candidate by a long shot.

    Maybe so, maybe not, but beside the point. I just thought it was as bit rich that someone was whining about him doing an I-told-you-so when he really had been bang on the money in his predictions.

  204. 204.

    GregB

    I have been thinking about the Comey letter and the discussion about if that letter was the turnig point. I am not certain but it seems the polling was drifting towards Trump prior to the letter.

    This is being seen as an indication that it something before the letter. Well I do know that there was a buzz and a drumbeat of that Hillary was under investigation and would be indicted.

    Rudy was talking that smack two days before the letter dropped. Someone needs to look into how much that chatter was taking hold and when it was reaching fever pitch.

    I think that story was buzzing in the weeks or days before in the wingnuttosphere. That would explain the earlier that the letter drop move to Trump.

    Get on it people.

  205. 205.

    Felonius Monk

    @Eljai:

    Teachout blamed her loss on dark money.

    There was some dark money involved. I saw a lot of those ads and the funny thing was that they were usually followed by one of her ads. That district is just too red.

  206. 206.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Mnemosyne: I’ve seen that. And there was also the group of voters that either voted for Obama in 08 and 12 or just 08 or 12 and then decided this time to vote for Trump. All of the information/data we have is all over the map at this point.

  207. 207.

    Mandalay

    @Felonius Monk:

    Well, at least Lieberman was a Democrat for most of his political career. Bernie not so much.

    Well the DNC was fully entitled to tell Bernie that he wasn’t welcome, to go away and run as an Independent. But they chose not to. I wonder why?….

    And of course an Independent Sanders has been far more of a Democrat over the years than Joe “Dino” Lieberman ever was.

  211. 211.

    Suzanne

    @efgoldman: But I don’t want Ellison to resign, either. I see a great future for him in his career.

    I am loving Harry Reid these days.

    We need passion and fire. We need a brand of passion and fire and energy.

  213. 213.

    Another Scott

    @Adam L Silverman: I guess Joe is doing something “right” if he’s got people who think he’s too liberal (the commenters on that piece), along with those who think he’s too conservative, both mad at him. :-/

    I have some sympathy for his predicament, but he’s made his bed.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  214. 214.

    Aleta

    The MI numbers blow. Apparently 12 years is too long for voters to retain and apply past history, which argues for news stories with more depth than a wading pool. I have to think that some 3rd party voters felt safe voting that way because of how the media covered the polling. The attention in the last week to whose model was better distracted from explaining the limits of models of sensitive systems.

  215. 215.

    Mnemosyne

    @Miss Bianca:

    Are we allowed to mention Bernie’s Russian-connected campaign manager, or has that been flushed down the memory hole in favor of St. Bernard the Uncorruptable?

    Bernie had a Russian-connected campaign manager and just happened to run a campaign that served up all of the most damaging Hillary attacks all the way up to — and at — the convention. Funny, that.

  218. 218.

    dogwood

    @RaflW:
    A year or so I watched a BBC documentary on the Obama first term. Well-done and very interesting. Lots of interviews with the people who had inside experience with the ACA passage. Rahm says very openly that he told POTUS he thought health care was politic suicide amidst the economic crisis. He wasn’t surprised that his advise was ignored. And as others said, once the President decided to go forward Rahm was in 150% and worked his ass off to pass that bill. There’s a very funny story about Rahm and Obama in the Roosevelt Room with squabbling Democrats at the end of the process. Suffice it to say, Rahm was very helpful. I never cared that Rahm was Chief of Staff. It’s an organizational position, not a big-time policy position. I think Obama brought him on for a couple of reasons. He lived through the clusterfuck Clinton transition and so had some experience concerning what can go wrong. And he was one of the few Clintonites who was never subpoenaed and didn’t write a tell-all book.

  219. 219.

    Peale

    @Suzanne: I think near the end, there was no way to make a positive case any longer and that was about driving the other candidates numbers down. But there wasn’t a positive story either candidate could tell in October. In her case, it was great I guess that all those women came forward so she could bring up his sexism. But gosh, the only ad I ever saw in my market in October was that “he called Rosie a pig” ad. I watched it during game 7 of the World Series and I thought “gee. I think I might have “gone high” there with 120 million people watching. Yeah, his ad was brutal to her, but I think our side gets turned off more easily to negative campaigning than theirs.

  220. 220.

    Elizabeth

    @andy: Presidents are not big downticket party building since they have to focus on their own race.

    It isn’t a bad thing, it is just something that they don’t think about. Hillary Clinton did though so I think she would have picked a person who could manage a nationwide congressional campaign like Dean did.

  221. 221.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Another Scott: Its all context. Purity tests are all well and good until you can’t get your high conforming purists elected in places where they don’t fit the local political, social, economic, and religious cultures. I’m not saying your candidates shouldn’t be tethered to the party platform, but not being able to recognize local differences in context or demanding they be ignored or are not important is just not going to get you far in a country as big and diverse as the US.

  222. 222.

    Elizabeth

    @Hoodie: Dean brought the party to the states-he brought the meetings to various different states, he went there personally and listened to what the locals said they needed and gave it to them.

    That is why he was successful at delivering two national campaigns: 2006 and 2008. Which is why he should be running the party again. Sure he is a centrist on issues but it isn’t about issues, it is about electing candidates and he has a record of doing that for other people.

  223. 223.

    Adam L Silverman

    @dogwood: Would you read a Rahm Emmanuel tell all book. Every sentence on every page would be:
    “I said fuck, fuck, fuck, fucking, fuckety fuck! And then the fucking meeting ended and I fucking went and had fucking lunch.”

    I appreciate a person who can swear well, especially when appropriate, but that man has a very, fucking limited fucking vocabulary!

  225. 225.

    Major Major Major Major

    @Elizabeth:

    Sure he is a centrist on issues but it isn’t about issues, it is about electing candidates and he has a record of doing that for other people.

    The chairmanship of the DNC is, right now, seen by some as a test of party ideology. I think Dean was great and would be great. But this is in the context of 1) the primary; 2) the DNC’s emails; 3) the whole DWS thing; 4) more emails; 5) Donna Brazile, which brings us to 6) more hacked emails. So now the future of the party depends on something something Keith Ellison if we want to something something working class white people.

  226. 226.

    Another Scott

    @Emerald: 2/3 of it was Bernie’s stump speech that you’ve heard 30,000 times. It had a few sentences about being “deeply distressed” that people are afraid and how we won’t “compromise” with racism. And that Donnie should “heed the views of progressives” because he lost the popular vote by 2M. And how Bernie is going to work to fix the Democratic party.

    Bernie’s been in politics long enough to know that politicans pay attention to people who vote for them. Donnie called Bernie a “maniac” and a “communist” – he’s not going to listen to what Bernie says, and Bernie knows that.

    But it’s the same-old-same-old “economics is the reason why everything is broken”, not being confronted with an opposition political party that will do anything to win and increase its power. Economics is important, anxiety about falling farther behind is important. But Bernie never ever (that I recall) talks about how the enemy is the GOP, not a bunch of rich people.

    People who donate to and work for the Democratic Party are not our enemy.

    He seemingly can’t open his eyes to that fact, and that makes him dangerous to progress, IMO.

    My $0.02.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  227. 227.

    Suzanne

    @Peale: Yes. That side was annnnnnnngry at the black man in the White House and the lady who is smarter than them who wanted it next. Anger is exciting. Measured, sensible positivity is not exciting.

  228. 228.

    BlueDWarrior

    @Suzanne: if the Democratic party is going to be succesful, that has to be the new paradigm. You have to create narratives that lead themselves to center-left solutions.

  230. 230.

    WarMunchkin

    @Major Major Major Major: Just not his voters? At some point we’re going to have to figure out how to expand our geographic reach instead of sitting defensively in cities waiting for the apocalypse. It’s not just Joe Manchin you’d get, it’s his WWC voters who may not be on board with cosmopolitanism. Is that worth it?

  231. 231.

    Elizabeth

    @Gin & Tonic: *waves hand*

    I have been active locally for 13 years. The best years were when Dean was in charge of the DNC. Which is why I am telling people to go with him. It isn’t about policy-it is about *winning the elections that allow you to have the policies you want.*

    Dean isn’t perfect-many of the candidates he recruited weren’t very long term but he thinks long term and understands that you build not just for the next cycle but for the next four to ten cycles. Had Rahm not managed to convince Obama to get #TimKaineSoNice, we wouldn’t have lost as much in 2010. I know people are saying “new blood new blood” but we need people who know how to party build NOT how to craft a beautiful statement of our values.

  233. 233.

    Gretchen

    @andy: Agreed. Keith Ellison would be great, except he has a day job in Congress. Dean would be great with his 50 state strategy, except he’s a white guy from Vermont. Why not both? We need a progressive Midwestern 50 state strategy. Done!

  234. 234.

    Suzanne

    @BlueDWarrior: Yes. The Democrats, as a coalition, get really into giving out carrots to their various interest groups and expecting all these not-always-allied groups to hang together. But there’s a lot of Latino voters who vehemently do not support abortion rights. Human Rights Campaign is basically the rich gay white dude group. There’s a notable contingent of African-American voters who do not support gay rights. Etc etc etc. Lots of dudes are grossed out by discussion of rape culture and “safe spaces”. If that could be stitched together into one cohesive narrative about how the Democrats are the party of HUMAN DIGNITY, then the coalition is more likely to stay together and to attract people.

  235. 235.

    Elizabeth

    @Major Major Major Major: A black Muslim isn’t going to get white people excited about our party and I really hate to say it, it sounds like tokenism. Not only that but he hasn’t run a national campaign along with the problems of having a part time party chair.

    If it isn’t Dean then it needs to be someone who knows how to party build like a Reid machine person or one of the California shadow players. Tom Perez is actually not a surprising name even though he hasn’t run for anything larger than a local race in Maryland. He has massive energy, he has been all over the country working on local issues (helps with candidate recruitment) and he doesn’t back down. More importantly, he doesn’t appear to want to run for an office.

  237. 237.

    WarMunchkin

    @Major Major Major Major: Look through Manchin’s issues on his website. You will find not one word about LGBT Americans, immigrants, African Americans, Latinos or women’s rights. He supports anti-climate policies, which are unquestionably racist, considering the brunt of climate change will be borne by blacker and browner groups in the U.S. and around the world. He’s arguably Bernie-like in focusing exclusively on jobs and health care, though different in ideology. Why should we permit him to be part of our party if he’s out of touch with the issues that we care about?

    @Suzanne:

    If that could be stitched together into one cohesive narrative about how the Democrats are the party of HUMAN DIGNITY, then the coalition is more likely to stay together and to attract people.

    We tried this and lost. (An electoral majority of) Americans don’t want human dignity.

  238. 238.

    Major Major Major Major

    @Elizabeth:

    A black Muslim isn’t going to get white people excited about our party and I really hate to say it, it sounds like tokenism. Not only that but he hasn’t run a national campaign along with the problems of having a part time party chair.

    I didn’t say it was a sensible strategy, but some people will say, in the same breath, that the future of the party depends on explaining economics to working-class white people, which can only happen by having leaders like a black Muslim from a big city.

  239. 239.

    Mnemosyne

    @Suzanne:

    Okay, but Cole had a tweet last night that made me LOL: why is it that all of the people who whine about “safe spaces” insist on carrying a gun with them at all times because they feel unsafe?

  240. 240.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Adam Davidson ‏@ adamdavidson Nov 10
    Dear Barack Obama, please prepare a fake Kenyan birth certificate and leave it somewhere in the White House for Trump to find.

    I don’t know if some kind of gift was customary, and I was hoping BHO would leave the ShitGibbon a framed copy of his long form. I know a letter is customary, I imagine BHO’s letter is going to a richly layered, carefully worded warning of how unprepared the ShitGibbon is, and he won’t read it all, and won’t get it. But it may be a not insignificant historical document.

  242. 242.

    Elizabeth

    @Peale:

    Yeah, his ad was brutal to her, but I think our side gets turned off more easily to negative campaigning than theirs.

    According to a friend of mine who gets to see the internals (he donates a shit ton of money) and he says our voters hate negative campaigning more than anything. And yes, when the other side attacks us they punish us. It is one of the reasons why we don’t get higher turn out.

  243. 243.

    Major Major Major Major

    @WarMunchkin: If Manchin ran in the Democratic primary for president I would fiercely oppose him. However, he is a senator from West Virginia, one of the most racist, conservative, fucked-up backwaters in the country. I’m not really understanding your question. Are you asking if I would still support the democratic party if the only way to win the presidency was by their understanding of gay rights devolving sixty years?

  244. 244.

    Elizabeth

    @Major Major Major Major:

    Sadly true. Drives me nuts-stop thinking about policy people! Now is not the time!
    I also want to say that the other internals I have been informed on show that when we do focus on economic policy, we can’t mention raising taxes unless we tie it explicitly to a specific program and it can’t be permanent. American voters are the weirdest voters because they want totally contradictory things all the time.

  245. 245.

    WarMunchkin

    @Major Major Major Major: Not quite. I’m asking how far would you be willing to push the line into less woke, less (socially) liberal but still persuadable fucked-up backwaters to build an electoral coalition?

  246. 246.

    Aleta

    Sanders says “Millions of Americans registered a protest vote on Tuesday, expressing their fierce opposition to an economic and political system that puts wealthy and corporate interests over their own. ” Isn’t he forgetting the subset of Tr-voters that put ending abortion above all else? A different subset that put ‘no gun control’ and ‘no taxes’ and ‘no power to the federal govt’ above all else? The ones who do believe in wealth, and who also believe inequality is natural law, and since they came out on top just want (lower taxes, less regulation) to keep all their money. The ones who aren’t on top but believe they could get there if only taxes and regulations and a little bad luck didn’t keep them down. The ones who might not fall into any of the above, but hated having a black president they couldn’t damage, and this vote was their last chance to humiliate him. The similar ones but toward Hillary. The subset of voters who believe any change has to be better than their life now. (Like teeneagers who want to leave home because anything would by definition be an improvement.) A different subset who think nothing too important will change if they vote down this system, because the courts will keep protecting abortion– free speech– privacy — the right to assemble.

  248. 248.

    Suzanne

    @Mnemosyne: Because people are stupid.

    We all know the answer. It’s all about fantasy. They don’t really feel unsafe. They are secretly hoping for someone to fuck with them so they can kill them and feel awesome about it.

  252. 252.

    Major Major Major Major

    @WarMunchkin: What bothered me about Sanders wasn’t that he didn’t focus on social issues, it was that he took a fairly strict Marxist/Thomas Frank “white people are only racist because they’re poor” approach and didn’t even mention social issues. Also I didn’t think he’d be a very good executive, and his policies didn’t add up, but we aren’t talking about that right now.

    I’d be curious to see actual numbers on “percent of time talking about _____” from various candidates and how it squares with our perceptions, actually. My memory is all over the place right now.

  254. 254.

    Major Major Major Major

    @Suzanne: Very possible! I tend to agree. And I absolutely don’t buy the ‘economic anxiety’ hypothesis. But, again, I’m not on Team Sanders/that Zach guy here. I’m happy to have folks like this in the coalition and swap concessions and argue, and I don’t really care if a cat is chairman of the DNC as long as the cat can run a tight ship, recruit people all over the country, and raise funds.

  255. 255.

    CarolDuhart2

    @efgoldman: At least Dean would work for us full time. Unless a slot in the Senate opens up, he’s not going to run for another office.

    Those who are agitating for Ellison is advocating for two very undesirable things; either a part-time Chair who’s also a part-time legislator, or a resignation from the House which triggers a Special Election where’s there’s low turnout. Don’t know if a Republican can contest, but anything can happen if they can do so, and we need every House seat.

  256. 256.

    WarMunchkin

    @Major Major Major Major: That’s a dodge. The point is that Obama was able to appeal to Edwards/Bradley/Jackson style populism and nobody thought it was a fundamental betrayal of socially-liberal/fiscally-conservative urban politics like we’re saying now. @Another Scott wrote a comment about people who donate to Democrats are not the enemy, and that comes across as saying something like “why are we demonizing Wall Street when they’re for civil rights?” Purity-ponyism works in multiple directions (yes, Clinton’s policies on Wall Street were significantly better than the charlatan and fraud known as Bernie Sanders, but we’re talking messaging here).

    People forget that Obama’s 2008 campaign was not run on the same messaging we’re projecting back onto him in 2016, and the electorate hasn’t changed enough to abandon that blueprint – just the conversation has. And it’s pretty fucked up that pushing towards a similarly messaged campaign is called out as racially insensitive, when it’s just what we did before to win votes and make everyone’s lives a little better.

  258. 258.

    Procopius

    I don’t know who Dana Houle is, but I don’t hate the DNC because of the Russians (their interference is a lie anyway) or Assange. They’ve been blocking liberal and progressive candidates since 2006, as have the DCCC and DSCC. Their whole top tier of executives needs to be canned. Not allowed to resign, fired in disgrace. I know nothing about Keith Ellison (except there used to be a science fiction writer by that name)(Whoops! My bad, it was Harlan Ellison), but I can tell you from my point of view an endorsement by Chuck Fking Schumer is the kiss of death.

  259. 259.

    martian

    Setting aside all the other reasons good ole Bernie would have gotten whooped in the general, wasn’t a giant tax increase central to how he was going to make his economic plans work? I remember polling about how his own supporters didn’t want to pay his tax increase. All these “economically anxious” totally-not-racist-how-dare-you whiteys were not voting for Mr. Giant Tax Hike. It’s such bullshit. Every voter in the Rustbelt would have had tax calculators mailed to them in flyers, emailed, forwarded all over Facebook – Bernie is the tax and spend liberal personified.

    God. In retrospect, I wish Hillary had taken off the gloves and cleaned his clock. Nothing was gained by letting Bernie float through unscathed. His followers are convinced he was unjustly slimed anyway, and Bernie couldn’t even bring his cohort over when it counted. Now we’re stuck with St. Bernie Who Could Have Saved Us But For The Corrupt Democrats Who Cheated Him.

  260. 260.

    joel hanes

    @smintheus:

    He was a business-fluffing centrist

    He was a business-fluffing centrist who was interested in making the Democratic Party work at the state and local level, in making it strong (but hard to control because less centralized), determined to cultivate the kind of robust many-legs structure that could withstand major shocks. He was a business-fluffing centrist who actually seemed to know how to do that.

    That ain’t chopped liver.

  261. 261.

    Suzanne

    @Major Major Major Major: Nope, not at all. It’s a cultural anxiety. Rural white culture used to be portrayed as noble and aspirational (even if it wasn’t), and the products of black culture were considered déclassé. But that’s flipped, at least for urban people under 40. Now most of us think of rural white areas as being shitholes of Waffle House and meth, yet we like Kanye. And we’re more secular. (My experience has also been that plenty of my cohort owns guns but will never talk about it, because they don’t want to be thought of as “gun people”, who are poor and/or gross.) There’s a great deal of resentment there, not for no reason. The Hillbilly Elegy guy pointed out that Trump gained traction among rural whites for no other reason than he hates the same people they hate. Hillbilly Elegy guy even says that none of them think that Trump will improve their circumstances in any real way. They just want to fuck the elites and the snobs.

    Anyone read Hamilton Nolan’s essay in Gawker about “Dumb Hicks”? And Kevin Williamson’s thing? It does not reflect well on me that I identified a not-insignificant similarity to my own attitudes. The 1-2 weeks I spend in Fayetteville, AR every year visiting my in-laws makes me feel so foreign and gross and contemptuous.

  262. 262.

    WarMunchkin

    @Major Major Major Major:

    This, from the Jefferson-Jackson dinner in Iowa is one of my favorite speeches – and, prior to “Yes We Can” – from Obama from 2007. Nowhere does he mention gay rights or immigrants or even abortion(!!!!) rights. Is Obama abandoning women, particularly after having a theocrat as President for 8 years? Of course not.

    Here’s the “Yes We Can” speech. It’s a little bit better and contains passages like:

    It was whispered by slaves and abolitionists as they blazed a trail towards freedom through the darkest of nights: Yes, we can.

    It was sung by immigrants as they struck out from distant shores and pioneers who pushed westward against an unforgiving wilderness: Yes, we can.

    It was the call of workers who organized, women who reached for the ballot, a president who chose the moon as our new frontier, and a king who took us to the mountaintop and pointed the way to the promised land: Yes, we can, to justice and equality.

    These are powerful words – but they absolutely do address, powerfully, the Democrats’ former economic message from a pre-2008 perspective. It’s fairly argued that this is Obama reigned in, who can’t speak his mind with the understanding that if a black man does speak his mind, he’s toast. In that sense, fine, I will concede that it’s racialist. But it’s rhetoric (not just this speech, in general) that worked and helped guarantee the security and rights of millions of Americans over the past 8 years; there’s no reason to abandon that out of spite.

  263. 263.

    joel hanes

    ole Bernie would have gotten whooped

    I think so too. We’ll never know.

    But I had grossly underestimated how bitterly HRC is hated by big chunks of the electorate (completely unfairly IMHO but that seems not to matter), and how big and useful a handle that hatred would turn out to be for the R election tactics.
    If you are a movement conservative, Comey is quietly your hero today, having slain the dragon queen at the trivial cost of his own honor.

  265. 265.

    Elizabeth

    They’ve been blocking liberal and progressive candidates since 2006, as have the DCCC and DSCC.

    Possibly because the electorate isn’t that liberal? I live in Arizona and absent a very liberal enclave in Tempe, you can’t win as a Dem if you are liberal. So when we won in 2006, Dean recruited a centrist in my district who later threw his career away to vote in the ACA as he was asked. And Gabby Giffords was always a centrist businesswoman. But the point is that they were recruited, given the tools necessary to win and they won.

    As Joel Hanes said, it isn’t about the policy it is about the building the structure that gives first the centrists a chance to get in and then move them left over time. We think just as short term as the Republicans and this really needs to stop.

  266. 266.

    dogwood

    @Procopius:
    This is getting ridiculous. Bernie the nonDem who hates the DNC as much as you do wants Ellison. Schumer says OK lets do it, and you are bitching.

  267. 267.

    Major Major Major Major

    @WarMunchkin: I still don’t understand your argument. Obama has always been a politician with an intersectional understanding of identity and power in America, and he speaks about it. All the time. I linked the More Perfect Union speech in my previous comment, though I recognize that’s an extreme example. But he still gave it. It was like an hour long.

    Over the course of his campaigns he talks about all these issues; he doesn’t erase them or elide them. I don’t recognize the “just populist economics, no ‘cosmopolitanism'” (which you still haven’t defined) Obama you’re trying to channel.

  269. 269.

    Suzanne

    @Elizabeth: Are we neighbors? I’m in west Chandler/south Tempe. There’s definitely places for liberals here—Grijalva is the co-chair of the Progressive Caucus. And Greg Stanton, who is likely to run for governor, is pretty liberal and is flying under the radar about it. Tucson is pretty blue, as is the middle part of Phoenix. Like most places, it’s blue in the urban core and first-ring suburbs, and gets redder the further out you go.

  270. 270.

    WarMunchkin

    @Major Major Major Major: A more perfect Union was a great speech that the media forced Obama to give because of the Reverend Wright email-grade bullshit controversy stirred up by the right-wing. He should never have had to do it; he did, talked about race self-reflectively like an adult… but it was directed at white people, rather than being an anthem of identity (Clinton 2016), which is what I mischaracterized as cosmopolitanism or intersectional politics. Remember Donnie McClurkin? Obama did that, too; but we don’t consider him homophobic now.

    Obama frequently used passages like:

    A party that doesn’t just focus on how to win but why we should. A party that doesn’t just offer change as a slogan, but real, meaningful change — change that America can believe in. That’s why I’m in this race

    and

    I am in this race to tell the corporate lobbyists that their days of setting the agenda in Washington are over. I have done more than any other candidate in this race to take on lobbyists — and won. They have not funded my campaign, they will not get a job in my White House, and they will not drown out the voices of the American people when I am President.

    and

    This party — the party of Jefferson and Jackson; of Roosevelt and Kennedy — has always made the biggest difference in the lives of the American people when we led, not by polls, but by principle; not by calculation, but by conviction;

    and

    We were promised a more ethical and more efficient government, and instead we have a town called Washington that is more corrupt and more wasteful than it was before.

    He spammed those phrases over the entire country. I’d argue that he contributed to the image of Hillary as conniving and without principle, in those days. He sounds a little bit like Bernie, except he’s thoughtful and not a fraud.

  271. 271.

    martian

    @joel hanes: They had to lie, cheat, and steal to beat her. That matters. It will be a rare candidate who can rise above being Gored, or Swiftboated. And now there should be a new attack word for what was done to Hillary, no? Not fair that she has to share.

    We can’t count on another Obama. He was special. So how will we defend the next candidate we do have? Democrats just aren’t as loyal as Republicans. They can throw up any old horse thief and bring out the vote in the name of furthering the movement.

  272. 272.

    Major Major Major Major

    @WarMunchkin: It sounded like you were suggesting abandoning, like, awareness. Obviously I’m fine with Obama. It was not at all clear to me that that’s what you meant, especially since we started off by talking about Manchin. I might suggest, going forward, making it apparent that this is what you mean when talking to people.

    ETA: @martian: Yeah, I hate so much how we apparently have to execute a quintuple backflip while nominating the most talented natural politicians of the generation in order to win the presidency, while they can puke up H.W. Bush or Nixon or W. Or Trump. Even having this conversation is pissing me off. No offense, warmunchkin.

  273. 273.

    mike in dc

    @Mnemosyne:
    Well, yes and no. If you’re 4 weeks pregnant, you’re pregnant. If you’re 40 weeks pregnant, you’re also pregnant. But there’s still a meaningful difference between those two states of pregnancy.
    This is a crude attempt at nuance, but here goes. There are different degrees of white racism.
    David Duke racism is blatant, hardcore white supremacist racism. Will use racial slurs in public. So racist that even Republicans acknowledge this qualifies(unfortunately, they otherwise do not recognize any of the other degrees as racist). Irredeemable except in extraordinary circumstances.
    Archie Bunker racism is still fairly overt. People who see the world in broad stereotypes, and when confronted with examples which contradict these stereotypes, place the contradiction into the “one of the good ones” sub-category. Persuadable, but only over time and with much difficulty.
    Archie Bunker Lite racism is more covert. People who still hold to a lot of stereotypes and prejudices, but have an easier time overcoming that in social interactions. Some people in this category voted for Obama in 2008 and 2012 and then Trump in 2016.
    Semi-enlightened Millenial racism is pretty mild. Occasional stereotyping and inappropriate behavior, but largely in alignment with the general trend of the past 50 years(or at least they mean well).
    Woke is perhaps the de minimis state of racism. Still vestiges, but a consciousness of it and a striving to do and be better.

    When you call a white conservative a racist , they get indignant, because in their mind, unless they’re wearing a hood and saying the N-word, they’re not racist. I understand that disrespect is disrespect, racism is racism, but some are more reachable and less malignant than others.

  274. 274.

    Mnemosyne

    @WarMunchkin:

    @Another Scott wrote a comment about people who donate to Democrats are not the enemy

    I think Scott was referencing the time that Bernistas held a large and raucous protest outside of George Clooney’s house because Clooney was hosting a fundraiser for Hillary there. And that was not the only instance where non-banker rich people were harassed because they held fundraisers for Hillary.

    So are all rich people the enemy now, regardless of where they made their riches?

  275. 275.

    WarMunchkin

    @Major Major Major Major: No, this is not about abandoning policy. This is whether we consider economic or class based messaging to be inherently racist, sexist or otherwise exclusionary. We are a different country than we were in 2008; and we have made serious strides in social equality that have helped our nation. But our party in 2008 was not exclusively defined by varied economic perspectives united by consensus social issues – again, I point to Obama’s embrace of Donnie McClurkin and John Aravosis’ opposition in those days. Trying to broaden and retailor our message to what Obama or even Edwards did in 2008 does not mean that we are cheating women, black people, Latinos or gay Americans out of a future where they belong. They weren’t tone deaf, like the fraud known as Bernie Sanders, but I don’t think for a second that it’s fair to say Obama 2008 made being proud of who you are the centerpiece of his campaign. Again, some of that is the simple fact that he couldn’t as a black man running for office; we don’t need to go that far back – but it’s worth remembering how he structured his message in those days versus what we did in 2016. They aren’t the same.

  276. 276.

    ruemara

    @lamh36: Katherine vandeHeuvel was praising David Axelrod for denying the racism. I am completely sick of the professional leftists.

  277. 277.

    Elizabeth

    @Suzanne: I don’t think Stanton is liberal. And not all of Phoenix is liberal either.

    Juan Mendez can get away with being the way he is because Tempe is very liberal. South Phoenix has some wiggle room but not much which is why Kate Gallego is fairly moderate in her area. Same with Ruben Gallego and Ruben is also a very careful politician. Raul Grijalva was a machine builder-if you know the Prezelski twins, Ted wasn’t wrong in how he explained why Raul gets in every year. But Martha McSally beat Matt Heinz because she was everywhere and masked herself as a “moderate.”

    While Ahwatukee voted in Sean and Mitzi this year, it wasn’t because it has turned liberal but because of who ran. Schmuck was his name and schmuck is who he was for LD 18 but we lost Dr. Myers and that means we didn’t flip the State Senate. This is, once again, not a liberal state nor is Phoenix liberal.

    We won the Sheriff and Recorder offices because Arpaio finally went too far for Sun City and even Republicans don’t like being blamed for voting.

    I appreciate the effort that the candidates made. It is very hard to run in this state since we Dems lose so often but again, with putting resources into the states, Dean was able to help us win. Along with someone like Jim Peterson who poured money in when Janet Napolitano first ran.

  278. 278.

    martian

    @Mnemosyne: Wasn’t that Clooney fundraiser for the Victory Fund with a lot of money going to the DNC and state orgs? And then a lot of conspiracy theories about the Clinton campaign doing money laundering erupted. It occurs to me that Bernie was in a position to clear up that little misunderstanding since he was part of the system and had his own Victory Fund, I believe, and so knew very well what the fundraising was about. I wonder why he didn’t…

  280. 280.

    Mnemosyne

    @mike in dc:

    Yes and … all of that is the reason we need to emphasize that actions are the problem, not thoughts. Go back to child rearing techniques, where you emphasize that what you want is for the person to not do/say the racist thing regardless of how they “feel” about it. It doesn’t matter that you don’t “feel” that it was racist to call your co-worker “my nigga!” — regardless of how you meant it, it was still a bad thing to say.

    Let’s face it, the backlash against “political correctness” is that certain people wanted to be able to say rude, hurtful things with no consequences to themselves, which is why they keep pleading that they’re not “really” racist inside.

    (My personal status: semi-woke. I try to be aware of what I say and how I react to things, but I’m still retraining my brain.)

  281. 281.

    Elie

    I truly hope that either some of the election boards, the Dems or the FBI counterintelligence or CIA are really examining the voting machines in some of these states. I hope someone has developed models for what hacked results would look like up and down these tickets. We have some relatively small vote diff between Trump and Clinton and these very weird polling surprises. Not saying exactly that the vote was stollen but coiluld have been w help from the Russians. What would that look like? Trump never bothered to get much polling data. Did he know something? I don’t want to go all in on tin foil but something just doesn’t smell right

  283. 283.

    martian

    @Elizabeth: Yeah. It thouroghly depresses me to think how excited I was for Bernie to run. I was really shocked by his lack of substance and depth on his own proposals. And then how ugly and dragged out the campaign got. There was reporting at the time that they felt safe dragging Hillary like that in part because a Trump win was inconcievable, and the Dem nom became the whole prize almost within reach. But more fool me. Policy papers and detailed, realistic planning is for chumps. Obviously. Nobody likes the girl who sits at the front of the class, turns in all her homework early, and asks for extra credit assignments.

  284. 284.

    Mike in Pasadena

    The biggest success of the Russians was not creating hatred of the DNC, it was placing a mole as the Director of the FBI.

  286. 286.

    Major Major Major Major

    @Elie: About as easily as changing the results on a box of paper ballots–trivial, but at scale basically impossible to pull off and get away with. (The methods wouldn’t be similar at all but they’re both “easy” to tamper with in that sense.)

    Most voting machines IIRC also have a receipt-like roll of paper records for verification if need be.

  287. 287.

    EBT

    @Elie: The fill a bubble and scan type could be fed a wrong key? I was a teaching aid my senior year of high school for AP US History and before you could grade the scantron forms you had to feed a key in so it would know what results to save. Still, you could only do a few machines in a few counties at best.

  288. 288.

    Elie

    I’m sorry for thinking like this. Obviously still struggling to understand and accept a result that may change our political system profoundly and forever. This has been the hardest thing to just wrap my mind around. My brain just refuses to fully accept it. Maybe in a few more weeks

  289. 289.

    Elizabeth

    @martian:

    They don’t get-you drag AFTER you win and need to hold the winner to the promises they made. She said she would do as the Sanders folk wanted. Why couldn’t they accept yes as the answer?

  290. 290.

    Mike G

    This is cleansing —
    Fuck Everything and Blame Everyone

    Blame the press for being completely unable to responsibly handle this election; for allowing itself to be cowed by a buffoon who threatened their continued employment and sometimes even their physical safety; for mistaking the feeble defensiveness of the Clinton camp for a sign that her misdeeds were in any way comparable to his; for failing to communicate clearly the message that one side was not just uniquely unqualified but actually dangerous to liberal democracy itself; for throwing up their hands at their own apparent powerlessness—How can the mainstream press compete with the new right-wing media?—despite the fact that the last demographic left in the United States that still watches TV news and even subscribes to newspapers is older whites; for not contextualizing anything, ever, for an audience that needed to be told repeatedly and in no uncertain terms that this man was not just a colorful, if distasteful, vulgarian, but actually a terrifying representative of a worldwide, ultra-nationalist, crypto-fascist revival.

  292. 292.

    dogwood

    @Major Major Major Major:
    Of course Obama always talked about race, gender and sexual orientation. He wrote a book subtitled “A Story of Race and Inheritance”.
    A lot of people think he wasn’t strong enough on these issues because he never yells or gets angry. Many people think angry screaming is the only way to prove you care about something. I remember a day or so after he clinched the ”08 nomination Noonan wrote something to the effect of a young talented relatively unknown black man just defeated one of America’s most powerful political operations without raising his voice. This was the loudest election in memory for me. Lots of reasons for low voter turn out, but I’m pretty sure the volume didn’t help.

  293. 293.

    James E Powell

    @Aleta:

    The attention in the last week to whose model was better distracted from explaining the limits of models of sensitive systems.

    I doubt that many voters were even aware of that. But I do sometimes wonder if the news that Hillary is going to win results in some people not voting.

  295. 295.

    cckids

    @Suzanne:

    I think we may have lost working-class white people. At least the Christian ones, and the gun owners. Clinging to guns and religion was a truth bomb.

    This. On Maher’s show tonight, the panel was IMO, way too focussed on how to get the white rural vote back. The “liberal redneck” guy said to Anna Marie Cox “Do you want to be right, or do you want to win?” He has a certain point, but also, “Do you want to win by selling your soul?” The things Democrats would have to promise and do to win those voters back would make us no longer Democrats. Not even centrist ones.

  299. 299.

    Brachiator

    @Mike G:

    Blame the press for being completely unable to responsibly handle this election;

    This is just wrong. The press is not your momma or your daddy. The press cannot protect you from harm. And people are not so stupid or malleable that they will magically heel if you hit them in a nose with a sharply worded editorial.

    What did you want, news anchors whining 24/7 that, “Trump is a bad man, don’t vote for him?”

    When has the press ever performed such a function? And when has it ever worked?

    And the plain fact is that Trump voters knew all of his problems, all of his defects, all of his weaknesses.

    And they don’t care.

    Newspapers which had never endorsed anyone but a Republican laid out the case against Trump. They were met with death threats and subscription cancellations.

    Some people, and many conservatives, not only cling to their guns and their Bibles, but also to their ignorance.

  301. 301.

    Mai.naem.mobile

    Fuck Sanders. Sanders is like Nader and a hundred other politicians. He got used to the drug of public adulation and couldn’t get off the stage when it was time to go and damaged Clinton. Fuck Clinton for her self inflicted shit. Speeches to Goldman Sachs after the 08 meltdown and you knew you were running? How much fucking money do you need? Also the DNC hack. Who the fuck puts that shit in emails? I am a peon and even I am careful about emails and texts.Did nobody see the Sony hack stuff? And then the campaign and DNC was bugged? Is there no security there? Wheres the Secret Service? I am totally willing to give Hilz a pass on her state Dept emails but the DNC stuff is a massive political and human resources dept fail.

  303. 303.

    Brachiator

    @James E Powell:

    But I do sometimes wonder if the news that Hillary is going to win results in some people not voting.

    Wait a minute. Balloon Juicers were yelling at the vile mainstream media for treating the election like a horse race, for denying the obvious, that all the polls worth polling were pointing to a Clinton victory. It was obviously in the bag.

    Except that it wasn’t.

  304. 304.

    Mai.naem.mobile

    @EBT: Don’t laugh at Kushner. I totally feel that Kushner is going to be the brains behind the loot and pillage division of Trump Inc. Also the enforcer. He gives me the creeps as do Lewandowski,Manafort and Bannon. The GOP used to call the Obama people Chicago thugs. Fuck that, the Trump-Putin LLC are the thugs. All with dead eyes.

  306. 306.

    Brachiator

    @Miss Bianca:

    well you know what? There is no “new blood”. That’s part of the problem. So maybe, an “old establishment figure” who has been around, knows the ropes, knows what we’re up against

    Clinton and the Democrats got knocked through the ropes. It’s time for something new.

  307. 307.

    Mai.naem.mobile

    Is there some reason why nobody brings up one of the Obama people to be the chair. Plouffe,Guy Cecil,McDonough,the Pritzkers,Jim Messina?? I don’t mention Axelrod because he’s been pissing me off recently.

  309. 309.

    EBT

    @Mai.naem.mobile: He should absolutely give you the creeps. He shit canned Christie in five minutes today for the sin of putting his slime ball father in jail back in the 80s, always be wary of someone who get’s their goal before 10 am.

    I am still going to point and laugh at him for knowing less about white house staffers than an out of work electronics tech.

  310. 310.

    Applejinx

    @Mnemosyne:

    So are all rich people the enemy now, regardless of where they made their riches?

    Judging by how Trump beat first all the rich republicans by promising to be a total apostate and monkey wrench in their works plus he didn’t need them for anything, and then beat Hillary Clinton using exactly the same angle,

    YES.

    They can’t change. Their epistemic closure bubble will kill us all if they’re not stopped.

    #allrichpeople. Yes they are the enemy.

  311. 311.

    Brachiator

    @Major Major Major Major:

    I know many, but I was asking you.

    You know many. Do you think that the Democratic Party leadership also knows many as well?

    And that’s the point, isn’t it? Not what you or I might know, but what the Democratic Party knows, and what they do?

  312. 312.

    Brachiator

    @Major Major Major Major:

    I know many, but I was asking you.

    You know many. Do you think that the Democratic Party leadership also knows many as well?

    And that’s the point, isn’t it? Not what you or I might know, but what the Democratic Party knows, and what they do.

    ETA. Weird. Got a database error message.

  313. 313.

    dogwood

    @Mai.naem.mobile:
    One of the things that struck me about this campaign was the decision they made on message. To the delight of most people here, she really went after Trump. She had the most impressive surrogates I’ve ever seen who were doing the same thing. Good message discipline, but with surrogates like that she might have been better off staying out of the fray a bit. Ignoring someone is the ultimate insult, and it put the attention on you. i would have advised her come on stage every once in a well and say everyone’s talking about Donald Trump: do you want to talk about him? And when the crowd says no, she tells them that’s great because I don’t want to talk about him either. Not saying it would have made a difference, but just a bit baffled that they didn’t separate her rhetorically from the pack.

  314. 314.

    Brachiator

    @Mai.naem.mobile:

    print is different than teevee and especially cable news. Print did a much better job than teevee but print is dying.

    server is dying as well, only more slowly. And cable, as well. But the main point is that people can ignore tv as easily as they ignore newspapers and magazines if they see a message that they don’t like.

  315. 315.

    Brachiator

    @Mai.naem.mobile:

    print is different than teevee and especially cable news. Print did a much better job than teevee but print is dying.

    server is dying as well, only more slowly. And cable, as well. But the main point is that people can ignore tv as easily as they ignore newspapers and magazines if they see a message that they don’t like.

    ETA another database connection error. Hope this posts.

  316. 316.

    Brachiator

    @dogwood:

    Good message discipline, but with surrogates like that she might have been better off staying out of the fray a bit.

    How would this have made any difference?

  319. 319.

    low-tech cyclist

    I want the 50-state strategy – which never should have been abandoned, dammit! This is why we’re in the fix we’re in – and I want a DNC chair who is committed to it.

    If Ellison meets those criteria, then I’m OK with Ellison. If not, then Dean.

  321. 321.

    low-tech cyclist

    Josh Barro tweets, “One thing about Howard Dean is, while he was “left wing” in 2004, the Dem party moved and now he’s a candidate of its center.” True, but the DNC is less about ideology than organization and effective partisanship.

    Eight years ago, the Democratic Party was effective at all levels, from state legislatures to the Presidency. Now, the Democratic Party is effective at none of those levels. There’s nothing the party can do about the Presidency for a few years. So right now, we need a DNC chair who can build us back up at the lower levels, the way Dean did after 2004. I’m OK with Ellison if he can do that. But I gotta admit I lean towards Dean because Dean’s already done it.

    One of the legitimate hits on DWS is that she wouldn’t even support Dem challengers to a couple of her House GOP buddies who were representing FL districts. That’s not just ineffective partisanship, that’s absent partisanship. If she didn’t want to personally take them on, then she should have admitted that her personal loyalties were getting in the way of her doing her job, and resigned.

  322. 322.

    Miss Bianca

    @Brachiator: You know what? Fuck that. I’m getting really angry with this “Oh, Hilz and the Democrats are such total LOOOSERS and it’s time for something new”. I point out there IS no “something new”, ad you just repeat “it’s time for something new”. Like WHAT? Who? Ellison? An endorsement for Ellison at this point essentially seems like “hey, one black Muslim-sounding guy worked the magic, maybe another one can too!” tokenism to me. Is Ellison going to take time off from his day job, where he’s needed? Isn’t that what people were bitching about before?

    If the DNC is still relevant – and it can be – we need someone organizing it who is experienced in winning elections, has a nation-wide strategy, and isn’t wedded to ideological purity, because if “triangularity” is no longer in fashion, “prairie populism” isn’t in fashon any more either – and to bring it back into fashion, sans the racism and nativism that has always given it its spice, is going to be a real fucking challenge. I think Harry Reid might be up to that challenge. But deciding that we need a lefty Tea Party approach is – primary from the Left! – is going to kill us. This country is deeply fucked up about race, the role of government, and the notion of the commonwealth. Bringing it to its senses is a work for generations, not just the next election cycle. You need someone who can demonstrate that s/he can think long-term and short-term.

    So lay it on me: who, besides the Obamas, show that “something new” potential?

  323. 323.

    qwerty42

    I think the DNC job needs to be full-time, not some off-hours gig. Can Ellison leave his seat? I think he’d be good, but can he leave Congress? The DNC Chair is going to have to be out raising $$, involved in recruiting candidates, involved in overall GOTV for 2018. I think it is supposed to be a full-time job, but that has tended to be waived. I don’t think it can be this time.

  324. 324.

    Elizabeth

    What did you want, news anchors whining 24/7 that, “Trump is a bad man, don’t vote for him?”

    This is what they did with Clinton so explain why they couldn’t with Trump.

    So lay it on me: who, besides the Obamas, show that “something new” potential?

    Tom Perez really is one of the few people who fits the bill besides Dean. There may be some state chairs out there that can do it (not NV, she is just a placeholder for Harry Reid to be honest and she has no discipline.) Alexis Tameron from AZ might do it-she has done national politics before with the Young Democrats and we had some successes out here this time. I don’t know the other state party people. Chris Galloway if he is anywhere near politics still (he was chair of the YDs during their biggest years recently so he knows how to get people out.)

    I don’t know enough of the grassroots people to say decisively.

  325. 325.

    WarMunchkin

    @dogwood: @Major
    Major Major Major    :

    I was responding to a commenter who seemed to think he just talked about economics.

    Show me. Yes, you provided his book (which I’ve read, as well as Audacity of Hope) and the A More Perfect Union speech. That is not in any sense the same thing as saying Obama 2008 was a campaign built on intersectionality.

    Obama was lots of things in 2008, including a candidate who allowed us to project what we wanted onto him. It is possible that through history and memory, one can selectively remember details. But if you really think he built his campaign on intersectional politics in 2008, I’d like to see some more.

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