Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

I might just take the rest of the day off and do even more nothing than usual.

He really is that stupid.

We’ll be taking my thoughts and prayers to the ballot box.

He wakes up lying, and he lies all day.

President Biden is doing good where he can, and getting it done.

I was confident that someone would point it out and thought why not me.

“But what about the lurkers?”

“Why isn’t this Snickers bar only a nickel?”

Let’s delete this post and never speak of this again.

I conferred with the team and they all agree – still not tired of winning!

Trump’s legal defense is going to be a dumpster fire inside a clown car on a derailing train.

“In the future, this lab will be a museum. don’t touch it.”

Republicans got rid of McCarthy. Democrats chose not to save him.

Nancy smash is sick of your bullshit.

I’d hate to be the candidate who lost to this guy.

Not so fun when the rabbit gets the gun, is it?

The truth is, these are not very bright guys, and things got out of hand.

Spilling the end game before they can coat it in frankl luntz-approved dogwhistles.

“The defense has a certain level of trust in defendant that the government does not.”

We’ve had enough carrots to last a lifetime. break out the sticks.

Compromise? There is no middle ground between a firefighter and an arsonist.

“Loving your country does not mean lying about it’s history.”

An almost top 10,000 blog!

Something needs to be done about our bogus SCOTUS.

You are here: Home / Elections / Election 2016 / Open Thread: More Calls for An Audit of the Election

Open Thread: More Calls for An Audit of the Election

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Gabriel Sherman, at NYMag, “Experts Urge Clinton Campaign to Challenge Election Results in 3 Swing States”:

Hillary Clinton is being urged by a group of prominent computer scientists and election lawyers to call for a recount in three swing states won by Donald Trump, New York has learned. The group, which includes voting-rights attorney John Bonifaz and J. Alex Halderman, the director of the University of Michigan Center for Computer Security and Society, believes they’ve found persuasive evidence that results in Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania may have been manipulated or hacked. The group is so far not speaking on the record about their findings and is focused on lobbying the Clinton team in private.

Last Thursday, the activists held a conference call with Clinton campaign chairman John Podesta and campaign general counsel Marc Elias to make their case, according to a source briefed on the call. The academics presented findings showing that in Wisconsin, Clinton received 7 percent fewer votes in counties that relied on electronic-voting machines compared with counties that used optical scanners and paper ballots. Based on this statistical analysis, Clinton may have been denied as many as 30,000 votes; she lost Wisconsin by 27,000. While it’s important to note the group has not found proof of hacking or manipulation, they are arguing to the campaign that the suspicious pattern merits an independent review — especially in light of the fact that the Obama White House has accused the Russian government of hacking the Democratic National Committee…

More detail at the link. Supposedly, “a senior Clinton adviser” says that “the White House, focused on a smooth transfer of power, does not want Clinton to challenge the election result”. The sitting President certainly considers it his job to prevent, as far as possible, the incoming Trump administration from blowing up the world. But surely (she said piously) President-Elect Trump deserves to start his administration without the shadows that a cloud of accusations would entail?

Reader Interactions

256Comments

  2. 2.

    O. Felix Culpa

    I wish they would do the audit. But what if it turns out that Hillary did win in those states? Would Trump go quietly? (I doubt it.) What a mess.

  5. 5.

    Elizabeth

    I have been calling and agitating for people to call the DOJ.
    If you know anyone in the Clinton campaign, tell her that no Obama, this is too important.

    If it causes a massive split between her and Obama? So be it. It means we won’t have an authoritarian in charge of our government.

    The Republicans never accept losing, why should we?

  6. 6.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Rick Perry, who yesterday met with Donald Trump to discuss a Cabinet position*, tonight made a special appearance with Vanilla Ice on Dancing With the Stars, which is still on television.

    * I’d be shocked if Perry and Romney weren’t called just so everyone could see that Trump could make them come to him.

  8. 8.

    smintheus

    The White House also discouraged Biden from challenging Clinton for the nomination. How’d that bit of political wisdom work out for you, White House?

  12. 12.

    O. Felix Culpa

    Obama’s instincts are to do things decently and in good order. I admire that in him. He is a good and gracious man. At the same time, there are situations where you have to fight, and fight hard, for what is right and true. This may be one of those times.

  13. 13.

    Viva BrisVegas

    @O. Felix Culpa:

    I wish they would do the audit.

    Anyone with an ounce of fortitude, courage and a sense of duty to democracy would challenge such a narrow and suspect result.

    So it ain’t gonna happen.

  15. 15.

    Omnes Omnibus

    I sure as hell would like to feel better about my state. And the having hope for the future thing too.

  16. 16.

    BBA

    Wishful thinking. I don’t think this is enough to flip any state but Michigan, and Michigan isn’t enough.

  21. 21.

    O. Felix Culpa

    For now bring on the audit.

    Yes. I called the DOJ today to do that. Part of my do-something-daily-to-avoid-despair mental health plan. Do you think that public pressure would have any effect on their decision to pursue an audit or not?

  25. 25.

    Liberal

    I’ve been pretty skeptical of all the claims of Russian involvement. But for fuck’s sake, this is just due diligence.

  27. 27.

    Corner Stone

    “It brings us no joy to say, questions have been raised on this issue.”
    /The NYT never, probably

  28. 28.

    Corner Stone

    @smintheus: The man has a mind of his own. If he felt his heart would be in it he would have went for it. No one took a crowbar to his knees.

  30. 30.

    prob50

    Seriously, this just not going to happen. A better cause would be to junk the Electoral College, which is also not going to happen either, since it would require a large number of the smaller states to give up their oversized influence in electing Presidents,.

  31. 31.

    Bailey

    As a recount strategy, it is just as bad as Gore’s decision to just recount certain counties in Florida. Just counting enough states to win will never be seen as legitimate by anyone.

  32. 32.

    PhoenixRising

    Why would we not all want an audit to verify that the AP call–which is not listed in statute or the COTUS as a factor in how we elect POTUS–was correct?

    The neo-Nazis are already going nuts. What’s the downside?

  34. 34.

    Omnes Omnibus

    FWIW WI historically did audits after every election. It, however, has been four years since I worked for the GAB and the GOP has fucked up a lot since then.

  35. 35.

    Lurking Canadian

    @O. Felix Culpa: I don’t see where decency prevents action. It seems pretty decent to make sure the damned election law was followed if you’re trying to run a democracy.

  36. 36.

    PhoenixRising

    @Bailey: That makes no sense at all. There’s no need to recount CA or WY; they’re not close. Recounting just the states in which there was a close call isn’t suspicious.

  37. 37.

    Miss Bianca

    Naysayers? Just shut the fuck up. Seriously. This is not about whether one person one or lost – this is about the integrity of the American electoral process. Greater brains than mine have made the connection between Russian-style electoral ratfuckery and what is coming out about the election results.

  41. 41.

    jacy

    @Bailey:

    It’s not a “recount strategy.” From what I’ve researched, these are the states where there are anomalous results. I think it bears finding out why. Correlation is not causation, but when something smells funny, you should find out why. There may be nothing there, but if there is…..

  42. 42.

    Raven Onthill

    Nate Cohn (NYT) tweets:

    Effect of paper ballots in Wisconsin goes from 7 pts, like NY article, to 0 if you control for race education, density (true w&w/o weights,) / Look, maybe these researchers have a lot more than what’s in the article. But there’s a *very* easy explanation for the pattern in article

    On the other hand, if you wanted to cover your tracks, this is what you would do. So who knows? At the very least it seems to me that the concerns ought to be published.

    Tweet links:
    https://twitter.com/Nate_Cohn/status/801226924156719104
    https://twitter.com/Nate_Cohn/status/801218126448824321

  43. 43.

    Corner Stone

    I hate this god damn Morning Joe commercial with Michael Moore saying we need to be decent to Trump voters at the Thanksgiving Dinner Table.

  45. 45.

    Bailey

    @PhoenixRising:

    That makes no sense at all. There’s no need to recount CA or WY; they’re not close. Recounting just the states in which there was a close call isn’t suspicious.

    Should we re-count New Hampshire then, too? It was closer than any of the 3 states under discussion. The only reason it isn’t under discussion is because it went to Clinton.

  47. 47.

    Miss Bianca

    At this point, I’d say we have nothing to lose. The Neo-Nazis are at the fucking door. I don’t know if we can, actually, stop them with audited votes, but I’d a hell of a lot rather we at least *look* at stopping them with the ballot before the bullet.

  50. 50.

    burnspbesq

    No downside to taking a shot at this, but a small voice in the back of my head is reminding me that the kind of statistical inference that makes sense to a computer scientist doesn’t look very much like admissible evidence.

  51. 51.

    PhoenixRising

    @Bailey: Actually I think the reason NH isn’t listed is that it uses a verified paper system and has a trail anyone can look at. Auditing NH would be redundant. Sorry I confused you with ‘close’ without specifying ‘and uses mixed voting systems across the state based on race & income leading to the whiter, richer precincts being hackable’.

  52. 52.

    Corner Stone

    @Liberal: I am no fan of DNI Clapper. Understatement. But FFS, the man did not say Russia was behind the hacks with no background.
    It’s one thing to demonize a person, or a movement, and say they are fucking with us. You want to boldly state a military superpower has a hardon for messing with our elections? That needs to be evaluated in every way we are able.

  54. 54.

    Feudalism Now!

    I am sure Obama is playing the what-ifs in his head. What if the election result is changed after finding ‘irregularities’. This taints every election going forward and in recent history. Will the Union survive if there is evidence of the election being rigged or hacked? I don’t know the answer to that. Obama doesn’t know, either, but if it went bad, it would be really bad. So you hedge the bet for work with the fascist, I guess.

  57. 57.

    hovercraft

    @Corner Stone:
    Didn’t you say yesterday that you were going to stop watching it? I went cold turkey very, very early on November 9 th, come on just do it.

    ETA: Make their dinner as miserable as possible, tell them about every lie it’s told since the election, Tell them the world is laughing at us, now that we’ve proved that we are as dumb and ignorant as they’ve always mocked us for being.

  61. 61.

    The Dangerman

    @O. Felix Culpa:

    Would Trump go quietly?

    Trump would go quietly and quickly; he never wanted the gig. His FU to the blind trust thing is all you need to see to know that fact.

    The Trumpites, however, would burn shit down.

  64. 64.

    PhoenixRising

    @Emma: you don’t think she’s crippled now?

    She’s given many decades to public service, even if some of it was in spousal roles. She has no future in politics. I’d question whether she wants to take the Oval based on this premise, sure, but that is no reason to leave lingering doubts that are resolvable about the integrity of the process.

  66. 66.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Emma:

    That’s the thing. I don’t see how she can win for losing in any possible scenario. Even if she had a 73-27% lead on a recount, the backlash from the Trump side would be swift and violent. It wouldn’t be right, but it would be a certainty.

    I would love to be wrong.

  67. 67.

    Quinerly

    @Emma:
    I’m not sure she really has anything to lose. They have called her everything including a murderer. “Politically crippled?” It would be her last stand. Her political career is over unless….

  70. 70.

    Morzer

    https://newrepublic.com/minutes/138970/bernie-sanders-clarifies-meant-going-beyond-identity-politics

    It should be clear to every Democrat by now that when we’ve lost the presidency, the Senate, the House, and two-thirds of state legislatures, we need to seriously rethink who we are and how we best go forward.
    The Democratic Party is the party of diversity. We have proudly led the fight against racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia, and for the rights of immigrants. Especially under a Trump administration, we are not turning back. We are going forward. There can be no compromise on bigotry.
    Our job is to expand diversity. We want more women, more African-Americans, more Latinos, and individuals of all ages, colors and creed to be involved in the political process. But to think of diversity purely in racial and gender terms is not sufficient.
    Yes, we need more candidates of diversity, but we also need candidates – no matter what race or gender – to be fighters for the working class and stand up to the corporate powers who have so much power over our economic lives. We need all of our candidates to have the courage to stand up to the Koch Brothers, Wall Street, drug companies, insurance companies, oil companies, and fight for working families — not just the top one percent.
    Our rights and economic lives are intertwined. Now, more than ever, we need a Democratic Party that is committed to fulfilling, not eviscerating, Dr. Martin Luther King’s dream of racial, social, and economic justice for all.

  73. 73.

    Emma

    @Quinerly: Dear God. Now we’re tossing her to the wolves. The woman should move to France and lived the remainder of her life playing with her grandkids and writing her memoirs. If she becomes president by these means she will have triple the shit Obama got; if she doesn’t, they will persecute her from every angle for raining on their parade. Why would any sane person want it?

  74. 74.

    Bailey

    @PhoenixRising:

    Actually I think the reason NH isn’t listed is that it uses a verified paper system and has a trail anyone can look at. Auditing NH would be redundant. Sorry I confused you with ‘close’ without specifying ‘and uses mixed voting systems across the state based on race & income leading to the whiter, richer precincts being hackable’.

    I could be wrong, and someone from Michigan can correct me, but I was under the impression that MI uses paper ballots as well.

  75. 75.

    burnspbesq

    @Major Major Major Major:

    We may have to agree to disagree on this. If Trump survives a recount, not only will he not feel even a tiny bit delegitimized (that requires the kind of introspection of which he seems incapable), it’ll dial his paranoia up to 11. If you’re going to fire this gun, you gotta fire for effect.

  78. 78.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @HS:

    Fuck off and die, you bigoted shit-eating piece of douche garbage.

    Attention Front-Pagers: Can we go ahead and just get this POS banned before s/he does any more damage to a thoughtful thread?

  86. 86.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Mnemosyne:

    64 and 74 (EDIT: Changed to 73.) Adam, John, Betty, Anne Laurie, TaMara, anyone with keys to the front door? Please get rid of this racist shitbag.

  89. 89.

    burnspbesq

    @HS:

    Assuming for the sake of argument that there is anything to that hypothesis, your side lost a long time ago, and that loss is not reversible.

  90. 90.

    prob50

    The best use of energies is to lobby the separate Electoral College voters, research which ones might be willing or even in favor of voting separately and promote the idea as an act of conscience that a concerned citizen has a right to exercise if they find themselves in a position to do so. Remind them of some of the acts of political courage many of us read about in High School Civics and how sometimes stepping up in the right moment can be an effective instrument of change. It may or may not succeed, but just the effort will be a positive, potentially constructive action of the type we are going to need to get through this ugly, discouraging situation.

  91. 91.

    Quinerly

    @Emma:
    I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I think she should challenge it. She was going to have more than “triple the shit Obama had” if she had won 2 weeks ago. Her opponents are rabid, and I’m including the Bernie supporters at the top of the list. I guess I fear Nazis and Trump more than you. Yes, I’ll grasp at straws.

  93. 93.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @SiubhanDuinne: I am pretty much anti-banning. I also know JC’s guidelines and, unless this one can quickly establish a poorly done, but good faith, effort at parody trolling, BOOM.

  96. 96.

    Mnemosyne

    I know I’ve already told everyone ad nauseum that Moana is a charming and delightful film that the whole family will enjoy, but have I mentioned that the short film that precedes it, “Inner Workings” is equally as charming and delightful?

  97. 97.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @Quinerly: @Emma: I can see both sides (!). On the one hand, I think it’s important to guard and verify the integrity of our elections. On the other hand, I can’t imagine the shit-show Hilllary would face were she to take office if the results were overturned. I wouldn’t wish that on her for anything – although I’d dearly like to be rescued from the incoming maladministration.

  102. 102.

    tobie

    Would it be possible for the state Democratic parties to request an audit? Especially if the party was willing to pay for it? Republicans yell day and night about the integrity of elections and why we need photo ID to vote and the like. Why can’t we ask for this on the grounds that we want to ensure the integrity of the election. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

  105. 105.

    Emma

    @Omnes Omnibus: No. She did a damn good job of it under horrific circumstances. She didn’t stop and she didn’t back down. The fact that so many of us were idiots is not her responsibility. She owes us nothing.

    On the other hand, the currently employed legislators known as the Democrats owe us plenty. This should be their hill, not hers.

  108. 108.

    Major Major Major Major

    Damn, I’m gone for ten minutes and I miss a troll hunt!

    @Morzer: This is the problem I had with him saying it yesterday, and it’s still the problem I have with him saying it: When he says

    to think of diversity purely in racial and gender terms is not sufficient

    I don’t even… I mean… Nobody is asking us to think in those terms! And this doesn’t even address his (very) thinly-veiled slap at Hillary as having been the “vote for me, I’m a woman!” candidate.

    @burnspbesq: I suppose we’ll have to then.

  109. 109.

    prob50

    Just to add to my comment #90, lobbying the Electors should be done in the most straight-forward non-partisan manor possible, push it with passion and energy, but leave the vitriol at home. At heart you may be thinking “Please don’t let that mthrfcker be President”, but at heart you are making a call to action for what you believe to be the good of the natiion

  110. 110.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Emma: No, when the election is truly over, she owes us nothing. If the result is really in doubt, she owes us a fight.

  116. 116.

    Quinerly

    @O. Felix Culpa:
    Under NORMAL circumstances, yes it would be a tough thing for her to challenge and possibly win in a recount of those states. BUT THIS IS NOT NORMAL. WHAT WE ARE FACING FOR THE NEXT 4 YEARS IS NOT NORMAL. Hate to shout but it seems pretty obvious to me. Do anything you can to cripple, delegitimize Trump.

  117. 117.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Major Major Major Major: I don’t even… I mean… Nobody is asking us to think in those terms! And this doesn’t even address his (very) thinly-veiled slap at Hillary as having been the “vote for me, I’m a woman!” candidate.

    To quote the Lady Olenna, where was the veil? to refer back to the last thread, it was clear to anyone who was paying attention who was on what side.

    @Omnes Omnibus: If the result is really in doubt, she owes us a fight.

    what if she finds Nate Cohn’s (and others’) argument that it isn’t more persuasive?

  118. 118.

    prob50

    @tobie:

    Would it be possible for the state Democratic parties to request an audit? Especially if the party was willing to pay for it? Republicans yell day and night about the integrity of elections and why we need photo ID to vote and the like. Why can’t we ask for this on the grounds that we want to ensure the integrity of the election. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

    I understand the feeling, but do we really want to be just like them? It will just add to the equivalency bullshit on Punditry Lane.

  119. 119.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I am pretty much anti-banning.

    I am too, generally speaking. But my tolerance for disgusting racist slurs is down in the low single digits these days.

    And if racist slurs are permitted, the sexist epithets are sure to follow. If that happens, I don’t think I can even.

  120. 120.

    Major Major Major Major

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: I was being charitable. His loathing of her is palpable.

    ETA: I saw a thing on Quora today by one of the senior Bernie campaign people saying that Hillary’s big error was writing off Bernie supporters as a bunch of stupid greedy kids who wanted free shit, when really Millennials are a sophisticated generation of etc. etc., and I was just gobsmacked. This was apparently the opinion that people high up in the Bernie organization held of Hillary Clinton, because she sure as hell didn’t think that of Bernie’s supporters. It was like this campaign worker was living on a different planet. I wonder where they got that from, hmmm.

  121. 121.

    mkro

    For certain, the Repubs would challenge it. Just like they’re doing in NC and like they did in MN in 2008.

    Dems have to start fighting and stop being such push-overs.

    Just imagine if Trump had won 2M more votes than Clinton but lost the EC. There would be hell to pay every minute of every day.

    BTW, that is her actual margin now, 2M more votes, she won 48.1% to 46.6%. Unbelievable. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/133Eb4qQmOxNvtesw2hdVns073R68EZx4SfCnP4IGQf8/htmlview?sle=true#gid=19

  122. 122.

    Corner Stone

    “Don’t you dare type me as a dumb uneducated racist!”
    Who you voting for?
    “TRUMP!”
    .
    .
    .
    Ok

  123. 123.

    SiubhanDuinne

    @Corner Stone:

    Sometimes numbers shift as moderated comments are liberated, horrible racist trolls are banned, etc. It already changed to 73 and I guess since the ban hammer came down, all the numbers have changed.

  124. 124.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Major Major Major Major: yeah, I just like that line, especially when Diana Rigg delivers it.

    @prob50: I don’t give a fuck about the pundits, and if I thought even a tilt at a windmill would weaken Trump in any way, I’d be all for it

  125. 125.

    hovercraft

    @Omnes Omnibus:
    That’s a legitimate argument. I actually agree, but I can see it from her side, as devastated as we all are, she must be worse off. She is finally in a place where she isn’t under constant attack. Can you imagine how savage the media and the Shitgibbon supporters will be. Oh dear, that was redundant wasn’t it? Seriously can’t you already here them calling her power hungry and a sore loser, and mean and selfish and divisive and old and nasty, it would be never ending, and dog forbid she won, the vitriol would only get worse. The GOP would exact a steep price. I hate to be defeatist, but as bad as I think the Shitgibbon will be for our country, I think this would be worse. It would be one thing if she hadn’t conceded, but she did, and to rescind that now would throw everything into chaos, and the Shitgibbon would howl every step of the way, with the media backing it up.
    So I want and audit, but I’m afraid of what the repercussions would be. I hate it that we always have to be the responsible ones, especially when the safety of my family is at stake. I’m torn.

  126. 126.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @amk: She asked us to trust her to fight for us. I am just asking her to do so if there is any real chance of it working. If it isn’t going to work, she should come out and say the numbers are insurmountable. If not, she should do this last fight. If she does either and it results in a loss, she can walk away. She fought a good fight. And, if it really is a loss, she owes us nothing more.

  129. 129.

    Emma

    @Omnes Omnibus: Gore did not face a Congress ready and willing to crucify him and a mob of insane Nazis at the door. Those “experts” urging her to jump in will get a few death threats but mostly continue on with their lives. She won’t. She will be a crippled president from day one. No appointments passing through Congress. No budgets. And the Republicans will ratchet up the hatred until we explode into civil war.

  131. 131.

    Quinerly

    @Emma:
    ??? @94. If you use that argument, she should have never run. Look, I don’t come to this blog looking for an argument or to be lectured on “hell.” Politicians are different from most of us…and the Clintons are obviously very different from most, if not all, politicians. (and don’t start attacking me…I’m a huge Clinton fan but they are obviously made from different “stock.) If there is a doubt about the Nos. in these states, it should be checked out.

  134. 134.

    Quinerly

    @Emma:
    She was going to be crippled from day one anyway…Repugs in the House were already talking impeachment if she were elected. Don’t you want to know if the count is right?

  135. 135.

    O. Felix Culpa

    @hovercraft:

    I’m torn.

    Me too. All the same, I desperately want a deus ex machina to deliver us from danger. Not likely to happen though. The alternative? Forming alliances and steeling one’s spine to fight for what is right and good in our country. I don’t want to live in interesting times, but they’re upon us.

  136. 136.

    Emma

    @Quinerly: Yes it should. But it should come from the citizens and the elected Democratic officials. Let them get off their arses and push for all they’re worth. The party has to kick into high gear. You know what? They won’t. There is a high non-zero chance that it will all be explained away. And they will have handed Republicans the lash to whip them with.

  141. 141.

    hovercraft

    @Major Major Major Major:

    This was apparently the opinion that people high up in the Bernie organization held of Hillary Clinton, because she sure as hell didn’t think that of Bernie’s supporters. I wonder where they got that from, hmmm.

    This is such complete bullshit, can these people just stop with this crap already. Hillary adopted pretty much all of Bernie’s positions, she moved to the left, even where she knew that his positions were DOA, free college for everyone. She did everything short of shaving her head, bleaching her hair and donning glasses to accommodate Bernie and his supporters. And yet for many of them that still wasn’t enough. The media should just stop allowing Jeff Weaver, Nina Turner and Tulsi Gabard to give them anonymous quotes.

  142. 142.

    prob50

    What would it take, actually? IF Hillary prevai, ls in Michigan it would take 21 switched votes in the Electoral College. It would not be easy, but it seems to me to be within the realm of possibility, much more likely than somehow engineering vote recounts in several states, prevailing in enough of those and then watching the Republicans file a billion-and-one appeals which might also bring the full noxious mass of Trump’s vengeful streak into play.

    But hey, if you really think the audit thing has a chance and it absorbs some of the helplessness many of us are feeling, well then go for it.

  145. 145.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @prob50: What would it take, actually? IF Hillary prevai, ls in Michigan it would take 21 switched votes in the Electoral College.

    Wisconsin, Michigan and either PA or FL, I think

  146. 146.

    Quinerly

    @mkro:
    I follow this vote count site everyday. She probably will end up with more popular votes than any White man who has ever run for president. She is on track for a popular vote that is in line with Obama’s in 2012. The only person who has had a greater total popular vote is a Black man.

  148. 148.

    lurker dean

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/22/opinion/questioning-donald-trump.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur

    “The problem is, as pleasant as it was to hear those remarks, it was alarming to confront how thinly thought through many of the president-elect’s stances actually are.”

    geez, if only there were businesses, like say newspapers, who could ask questions about, and investigate, candidates’ policies for the 2 years before they’re actually elected. fucking worthless idiots.

  150. 150.

    Rp

    She should demand investigations in all close states and promise to resign immediately if she actually won. That takes some of the air out of the sore loser balloon and gives us a president less tainted by this process (kaine).

  151. 151.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Emma: Don’t willfully misinterpret what I said. If this audit fight does not happen, he is the president. Arguing against the audit is tacitly arguing that he won, i.e., accepting that him as the president.

    If he is the pres, we have ways of fighting. I am giving you credit for your history and assuming that we are simply miscommunicating. I don’t think you are trying to treat me as a cretin.

  152. 152.

    prob50

    @O. Felix Culpa: @O. Felix Culpa:

    Me too. All the same, I desperately want a deus ex machina to deliver us from danger. Not likely to happen though. The alternative? Forming alliances and steeling one’s spine to fight for what is right and good in our country. I don’t want to live in interesting times, but they’re upon us.

    Yeah, Superman ain’t real and all the Marvel Comic Book dudes and dudesses just aren’t relevant to the situation. You can’t beat these guys with Smoke & Mirrors because they own all the mirrors and know how to angle them to get the frustrated and disengaged to see what they want them to see. I’ve highlighted your suggestion because this is really the only useful and constructive way to go. It’ll cut a lot more timber than thrashing about with windmill wishes

  154. 154.

    Emma

    @Omnes Omnibus: I think we are, yes. Since I don’t seem to be making a good argument — arguments from emotion never seem to jell properly for me — I’ll just apologize and retire from the discussion.

  155. 155.

    Taylor

    @Emma:

    Those “experts” urging her to jump in will get a few death threats but mostly continue on with their lives.

    Fuck you. Those academics are risking their federal funding for their research. That means their research assistants having to be fired, their own careers ruined, those without tenure getting fired, the others having to watch everything they say in a lecture theater, knowing there are going to be RW plants recording them.

    She won’t. She will be a crippled president from day one. No appointments passing through Congress. No budgets. And the Republicans will ratchet up the hatred until we explode into civil war.

    She was facing that anyway. Why do you think Trump was talking about rigged elections?

    Get a fucking spine.

  156. 156.

    Joyce H

    @prob50:

    A better cause would be to junk the Electoral College, which is also not going to happen either, since it would require a large number of the smaller states to give up their oversized influence in electing Presidents,.

    You’re right that a Constitutional amendment to scrap the Electoral College is too steep a hill to climb, but there is an effort ongoing that would render the EC harmless. It’s called the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact, and to date, ten states with a total of 165 electoral votes have passed it. When enough states to total 270 EC votes have passed it, the Compact goes into effect and when that happens the states that have passed the NPVIC will cast their EC votes for the winner of the NATIONAL vote. The beauty of it is that the states that cling jealously to their outsized EC pull don’t have to sign on, as long as enough states to total 270 have passed it.

    States that have already passed the NPVIC are: California, DC, Hawaii, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York, Rhode Island, Vermont and Washington. I think in the next couple years, the incoming administration is going to be such a gawdawful mess, and a lot of us will be reminding folks every chance we get that the voting public didn’t sign on for this, this is all the fault of that damn old Electoral College – the EC is soon going to be so toxic and unpopular that the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact will be a way for states to signal their lack of support for the horrible direction of Trump Inc.

    If your state isn’t already a NPVIC signatory, let your state legislators know that it ought to be.

  157. 157.

    hovercraft

    @Major Major Major Major:

    It depends on whether they are bank robbers or terrorists. Bank robbers will steal everything not nailed down, terrorists want to destroy the world. The problem is that this band of bank robbers are so dumb and reckless they could accidentally kill us all. If they were just your run of the mill GOP bank robbers we would all survive, but this gang is led by a syphilitic ringleader. So I don’t know what the responsible thing to do is.

  159. 159.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Emma: Okay. I don’t think it is done yet. You do. In either case, when it is done, she will have (I hope) done everything we asked of her. She owes us nothing then.

  160. 160.

    Suzanne

    @Omnes Omnibus: If we can win, even on a technicality, we should go for it. This ain’t beanbag.

    People’s lives hang in the fucking balance. I don’t care about HRC’s feelings. If in the insane event that there was an audit and it turns out she was the rightful winner, and she decided that she didn’t want to do the job under the circumstances, that would be okay. I’ll take Kaine. Or someone else. But fuck.

  162. 162.

    Mike in Pasadena

    No, Chump does not deserve to start his administration in the clear, throw as many clouds as possible over it. Isn’t that what the Rethuglicans did to President Obama?

  163. 163.

    Bailey

    @Joyce H:

    States that have already passed the NPVIC are: California, DC, Hawaii, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York, Rhode Island, Vermont and Washington. I think in the next couple years, the incoming administration is going to be such a gawdawful mess, and a lot of us will be reminding folks every chance we get that the voting public didn’t sign on for this, this is all the fault of that damn old Electoral College – the EC is soon going to be so toxic and unpopular that the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact will be a way for states to signal their lack of support for the horrible direction of Trump Inc.

    If your state isn’t already a NPVIC signatory, let your state legislators know that it ought to be.

    I wouldn’t expect too many more states to join this in the near future since the vast majority of state legislatures are controlled by the GOP.

  166. 166.

    Groucho48

    We should definitely look into irregularities in the close states, but, I don’t think it would serve any purpose at all to demand recounts unless there was a good chance that recounts would win it for her. And, from what I can tell, that doesn’t seem very likely.

  168. 168.

    seaboogie

    I’d like to hear what Adam has to say about this. I do envision, if the election were overturned, something close to a very un-civil war resulting from same, and I think this might be what Obama is trying to avoid.

    That said, the GOP – and Trump in particular – is all about projection. Trump has been saying the election “is rigged” all along, based on polls (unless they favored him). And I do remember Rove going sideways during the 2012 election, because he was so sure of his data. I assume he believed that the voter suppression they engaged in was sufficient to swing the election in favor of the GOP, without the assistance of Russian hacking.

    I also believe that ballots without a presidental candidate selected could reasonably reflect the general disgust with “both sides” after the endless and protracted tarring and feathering of Hillary. At this point, I believe just about anything is possible.

  169. 169.

    eemom

    GREAT. Sooooo glad you posted this. It need to go fucking viral NOW, and every last minute before December 19.

    (Once again, have skipped over the comments, for which my poor addled brain thanks me.)

  173. 173.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Bailey: Hi there, ray of sunshine. I know that is will cost more, but you would be more believable if you commented here and became a regular. Instead, you tend to show up in certain types of threads. (you should talk about over-time of bonuses, just saying) We have Bernie voters here who are welcomed members of the community.

  175. 175.

    Miss Bianca

    @prob50: Gee…I dunno. Do I want to roll over and put all my paws in the air and whimper: “Oh, just give the Russian-backed neo-Nazi a chance, he gamed the election fair and square, and fighting him would be just so UNCIVIL, you guys!”

    That sounds pretty unappealing, actually. Our democracy is in shreds, torn up by a bunch of greedy, actually evil bastards, and I’m supposed to sit there and say, “oh…that’s not NICE. But we shouldn’t punch back at bullies! That’s not being very mature!”

    I wonder what happened to all those guys at Whte Rose Society meetings saying, “But…but…*fighting* the Nazis is acting just *like* them!”

  176. 176.

    Bailey

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Hi there, ray of sunshine. I know that is will cost more, but you would be more believable if you commented here and became a regular. Instead, you tend to show up in certain types of threads. (you should talk about over-time of bonuses, just saying) We have Bernie voters here who are welcomed members of the community.

    I don’t owe you, or anyone, a schedule for posting.

    Alternately, you could behave like a functional adult when a name you don’t recognize pops up with a different viewpoint. Why don’t you work on that rather than dictate how much time I need to spend somewhere?

    PS – What does “certain types of threads” mean? You mean ones about political questions? Yes, I am drawn to those. Threads about people’s pets, or pictures of pets, or recipes or gardens, or soccer games I could give a flying fuck about. Okay?

  178. 178.

    Suzanne

    @Miss Bianca: SERIOUSLY. When the GOP treats us as if we are spineless, that’s because we are. God. We need to stop tripping over our own dicks and stop taking the high road every single time.

    Two days ago, they were talking about fucking INTERNMENT CAMPS. The time for grace and civility is long past.

  182. 182.

    Bailey

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Whoosh goes the point. Which is cool because the paymasters will continue getting it wrong.

    When you get something, anything, right I promise we’ll have a party, okay?

  183. 183.

    Mnemosyne

    @Miss Bianca:
    @Suzanne:

    I understand the people who are worried that Hillary pulling out a win after an audit would potentially cause the neo-Nazis to start an open terrorism campaign. I think that’s a risk we have to take, but I understand the concern.

  186. 186.

    Morzer

    Clinton may have been denied as many as 30,000 votes; she lost Wisconsin by 27,000.

    If that’s the sum total case you are trying to make, it’s alarmingly weak from the get-go and I can see why Obama wants no part of it. Show me that Clinton was definitely denied 50,000 votes in WI, plus an outcome-changing number of votes in PA and MI and you’ve got some credibility and maybe a chance of getting a result – but claims that we should consider overturning the election because Clinton might possibly squeak out a win in one state by ~3,000 votes are going to be a very hard sell for most of the country. I don’t like the Trump presidency any more than you do, but I don’t see how you get from one statistical argument about the WI vote to overturning the outcome in enough states to make a difference. The Democratic party as an institution and Clinton’s team have screwed things up enough consistently enough that we lost an election that we should have won. You want to get a better result next time? Don’t waste time chasing this sort of statistical illusion down the rabbit hole, but take a hard look at the Democratic party and the way it does business (or doesn’t do it in numerous areas).

  188. 188.

    Quinerly

    @Mnemosyne:
    Those Neo Nazis already seem pretty open with their terrorism campaign to me…they are having conventions in DC, openly talking to the press plus their brothers in arms..the KKK are parading in December in NC to celebrate their guy’s victory. And the cretin is only two weeks out from being elected.

  189. 189.

    Suzanne

    @Mnemosyne: Yeah, I get it. I just don’t think that that is more dangerous than having their puppet in the a White House.

    The most dangerous person the world is Vladimir Putin. He wants a lapdog badly, for some reason. That reason is not likely good. We should do everything we can do to prevent it.

  192. 192.

    prob50

    @Joyce H: Yes, I was aware of the NPVIC movement and I fully support it. Someday I believe it will stand a very good chance of untangling the messy and undemocratic nature of the EC and “Winner-Take-All” tradition that has become politically and cultural accepted as some sort of sacred right, as though Thomas Jefferson himself carried down a divine message to America from above (yes, I know jefferson was not real big on the “divinity concept”). “From this day forth Thou shalt abide the EC without question, for it is unquestionably American, as no other country would be silly or capricious enough to use such an obviously gerry-rigged contraption that was thrown together as a compromise to get the South to agree to form our Union” I’m pretty sure Jefferson would roll over in his grave if he found out we still are using what was originally designed as solely as a lubricant to ease the South’s entry into the Union.

    Yeah, I’m prattling on. Haven’t really been very chatty since 11/9.

  193. 193.

    Bailey

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Gawd. Partying with you? Why would I?

    You seem awfully attached to me. Like a tick. Like some sad someone who seriously needs a friend and needs attention paid to you. There’s really no other explanation for your repeating behavior. In that case, I would invite you to a party because you’re just that lonely and I can’t bear leaving the pathetic kids out.

  194. 194.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Morzer: Um, that is the point of an audit. I get that you are a Bernie guy. We may not win, but there are still channels. Don’t shit on them. Clinton or Trump wins. Who is better. Odds are that he still wins, but let’s make him jump through every hoop, yes?

  196. 196.

    Bailey

    @Morzer:

    If that’s the sum total case you are trying to make, it’s alarmingly weak from the get-go and I can see why Obama wants no part of it. Show me that Clinton was definitely denied 50,000 votes in WI, plus an outcome-changing number of votes in PA and MI and you’ve got some credibility and maybe a chance of getting a result – but claims that we should consider overturning the election because Clinton might possibly squeak out a win in one state by ~3,000 votes are going to be a very hard sell for most of the country. I don’t like the Trump presidency any more than you do, but I don’t see how you get from one statistical argument about the WI vote to overturning the outcome in enough states to make a difference. The Democratic party as an institution and Clinton’s team have screwed things up enough consistently enough that we lost an election that we should have won. You want to get a better result next time? Don’t waste time chasing this sort of statistical illusion down the rabbit hole, but take a hard look at the Democratic party and the way it does business (or doesn’t do it in numerous areas).

    Seriously. This is such an unconvincing argument, it would be suicidal to pursue. Perhaps there is more “evidence” that the researchers have not made public, but assuming there is voter hacking going on in a state that has all paper ballots (MI) seems odd as does not including in the analysis an even closer state (NH).

    That way lies madness.

  197. 197.

    Morzer

    @Suzanne:

    The most dangerous person the world is Vladimir Putin.

    No. Russia’s economy is smaller than South Korea’s. The value of its only big ticket export has collapsed in recent years and shows no sign of reviving. The most dangerous person in the world is, alas, the person the American people, in their infinite wisdom and using a hopelessly archaic electoral system, chose to put into the White House. He can screw up an infinite amount of things and there’s no cavalry coming over the hill to save us from the consequences, because the US has the world’s largest military by a country mile and that changes the rules of the game completely.

  200. 200.

    James Powell

    @Morzer:

    But there is this: If this kind of “accident” happens and no investigates to find out the truth and there are no consequences for the wrongdoing or incompetence, then we can expect it to happen again. And again.

  201. 201.

    tobie

    @Morzer:

    Show me that Clinton was definitely denied 50,000 votes in WI, plus an outcome-changing number of votes in PA and MI and you’ve got some credibility

    Hard to show anything without an audit. Given how close the outcomes were in these states and the documented irregularities, there’s no harm in verifying the election results. What are you afraid of?

  202. 202.

    Morzer

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I am not a “Bernie guy” (whatever that is supposed to mean), just as I am not a Clintonista. I am a Democrat who thinks the party has gone off the rails big time in the last few years and desperately needs to get its act together at every level. Yes, I think Bernie’s ideas offer one possible path out of the mess the Democrats are in and deserve some exploration. Yes, I think Clinton was a qualified candidate, but mediocre politician, just as she was in 2008. I voted for her and donated to her because she was obviously better than Trump. What more could I have done, short of taking a virtual screwdriver and hacking enough voting machines to make a difference? Bernie obviously has a solid constituency and the Democrats are not in a position to ignore any significant bloc of supporters for the future – as the recent electoral disasters have amply demonstrated. The sooner that the Clinton die-hards recognize this reality, and stop trying to read Bernie and his people out of the party, the better for them and the party as a whole.

  203. 203.

    MisterForkbeard

    @tobie: More importantly, if someone can SHOW that Trump or the RNC (or Russians, whoever) cheated definitively by changing vote totals, that’s a huge blow to the Trump presidency even if it doesn’t result in any of those states changing hands. It’s a massive blow to credibility and goodwill. It might even be enough to create more Electoral College faithless voters, though I’d doubt it.

    That said, the chances that level of fraud actually occurred are really low. But on the other hand – an audit in WI wouldn’t be terrifically difficult, and it could uncover fraud relatively quickly. If discovered, the rest of the states should audit.

  205. 205.

    Morzer

    @tobie:

    I am afraid that the Democrats are going to chase this very thinly sourced illusion down the rabbit hole to nowhere and lose credibility and time, while failing to rally the troops to fight back effectively against Ryan and the granny-starvers.

    Seriously, if the sum of your case is a hypothetical margin of error win in one state, you’ve got nothing. You’ve got no evidence that demands a recount in PA, which is the ballgame with 20 electoral votes. Show me something credible in PA and you’ve got a case for an audit – but without evidence that demands an audit there, you are making a case that will explode in the face of the Democratic party and wreck their credibility on issues where they might be able to win.

  207. 207.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @tobie: n these states and the documented irregularities,
    which ones? cause the evidence these “leading experts” refer to doesn’t look very irregular to people who study voting data full time

    Nate Cohn ‏@ Nate_Cohn 5h5 hours ago Manhattan, NY
    Look, maybe these researchers have a lot more than what’s in the article. But there’s a *very* easy explanation for the pattern in article
    Metro Wisconsin, where Clinton did well, uses paper; rural Wisc, where she collapsed like everywhere, is electronic.

    What are you afraid of?

    I know you weren’t asking me, but… not much, myself, since very few people outside political-junkiedom are ever going to hear about this. But I do find these quests for divinely wrought swords and magic spells less productive than, if not counterproductive to, the slow, hard and boring boring of hard boards. And I will be irritated when, two or three years from now, NR and GoBlue are clogging up every other thread bleating about “the Wisconsin audit” in place of “the public option” as proof that Establishment Democrats and neo-liberals just don’t have any balls and are afraid to fight.

    I’ll be happy to change my position if any stronger evidence comes out.

  211. 211.

    Major Major Major Major

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: I agree with Cohn and came up with that same explanation–pretty straightforward, really–but if there’s support for an audit, then we should go ahead and do it. At the very least it will gum up the works, and every second they’re on defense is a second they’re not on offense.

    Then there’s the very minute but still real chance that something actually does turn up that’s irregular!

    ETA: @Morzer: Bernie insulted Clinton just yesterday. He’s not innocent here.

  212. 212.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Morzer: Now, maybe you can persuade the various Clintonistas to stop bashing Bernie.

    Right after you get Bernie! to give up on his self-indulgent “I told you so!” tour

  214. 214.

    seaboogie

    @Major Major Major Major:

    I’m sorry but this is such a BS number. We have a growing population.

    Agreed. Data that has appeared showing total number of votes for president over the years are bogus – the population is growing and this is apples and oranges.

  216. 216.

    Morzer

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Bernie hasn’t said any such thing. He does argue that the Democratic party needs to rethink, which seems pretty hard to deny. Should we just keep going down the same old path which has lost us state houses, the Senate, and the House? Oh, and one little ticket item called the White House.

    Bernie’s ideas may not be the keys to the kingdom – but what we’ve got right now doesn’t seem to be opening many doors. Rethinking our approach is just common sense.

  217. 217.

    James Powell

    @Morzer:

    Maybe this is a discussion best left for another thread, but “off the rails big time in the last few years”? Seriously?

    Off the rails? Big time? In the last few years? What the hell are you talking about?

  218. 218.

    Morzer

    @Major Major Major Major:

    You know, for people who supposedly understand that politics ain’t beanbag, the Clintonistas have ridiculously delicate egos. Yes, their candidate lost. Yes, they feel bad about it. Yes, Trump scares the crap out of them. But seriously, looking for an outrage in everything Bernie says is just weak sauce. Time to square those shoulders and fight for the future of the Democratic party, rather than turning everything into a pointless squabble about the past.

  219. 219.

    Morzer

    @James Powell:

    How many more state houses, Senate seats, House seats and presidencies would you need to lose to be convinced that the Democratic party is off the rails?

    Are you seriously trying to tell me that the Democrats aren’t a disaster electorally at every level?

  220. 220.

    Major Major Major Major

    @Morzer: You said:

    Now, maybe you can persuade the various Clintonistas to stop bashing Bernie. It’s not getting the Democrats anywhere for this internal fight to rumble on.

    Then you said, about Bernie’s petty insults directed at Hillary:

    But seriously, looking for an outrage in everything Bernie says is just weak sauce.

    Perhaps you should take your own advice and stop getting your feelings hurt when people say mean things about Saint Bernard.

  221. 221.

    Mnemosyne

    @Morzer:

    Should we just keep going down the same old path which has lost us state houses, the Senate, and the House? Oh, and one little ticket item called the White House.

    And the massive voter suppression in the form of Voter ID laws coupled with the Koch brothers and other conservatives pouring money into state-level races during the same time period is a total coincidence that has nothing to do with those losses?

  223. 223.

    Morzer

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I am not seeing your point here. If there’s a credible case to be made and the margin is thin, sure, call for an audit – but what’s on offer seems to be a statistical claim about one state, plus the sense that Michigan is close enough to demand a recount. That’s fine and dandy, but I don’t see any realistic path to a Clinton win without PA – and there’s no shred of a case there so far.

  224. 224.

    Mnemosyne

    @Morzer:

    How many more state houses, Senate seats, House seats and presidencies would you need to lose to be convinced that the Democratic party is off the rails Republican Party is suppressing the vote at levels unseen since 1964?

    Fix’d. And I have a lot more facts to back up my stance than you do.

  227. 227.

    Morzer

    @Mnemosyne:

    So your proposed solution is more of the same? Let’s remember that it was the Democratic party that failed to find a way to stop the voter suppression tactics, that lost the crucial state houses before the gerrymanders were in place – and which has conspicuously failed to find any viable approach other than hoping that some day demographics will equal automatic victory. I don’t see any path to a better future coming out of staying the course with the Democratic party as it currently is and currently does business.

  231. 231.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Mnemosyne: also a uniquely flawed–sometimes her fault, sometimes not– candidate who still won the popular vote in spite of being attacked by not just the Usual Suspects, but by the Director of the FBI, Russian intelligence (talking about Wikileaks, not (yet) whatever may have happened in WI) and a deranged and deluded old coot with a Pied Piper appeal that boggles my phlegmatic and middle-aged mind.

    The Senate… a harder nut to crack. As a cranky introvert and atheist I’d be even less able than I am willing to run for office, so I’m sympathetic to the idea that candidate recruitment is harder than we would think– you have to be both willing to let people go through your garbage and underwear drawer, and have nothing interesting in either, but I can’t believe that in states the size of FL and OH, the Dems can’t recruit better candidates.

  232. 232.

    Morzer

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Which will achieve what? The media will simply write it off as a case of Democrats quibbling pointlessly after losing the election and will assume that any resistance to the Trump/Ryan/Pence agenda is more of the same. I am all for fighting – but for causes that might get us somewhere. Correcting statistical anomalies (if they are indeed anomalies) without changing the result overall seems like a good way to waste time and resources while taking the spotlight off Trump and the horrors of the GOP agenda.

  233. 233.

    Mnemosyne

    @Morzer:

    My proposed solution is to fight against voter suppression of minority voters rather than abandoning them to go after racist whites who voted for Trump in the hope that if we also deny minorities the right to vote, they’ll like us better.

    You may be fine with a large chunk of American citizens being stripped of their voting rights. I am not.

  236. 236.

    Morzer

    @Mnemosyne:

    How does that link do anything to build a case for an audit of the actual vote in PA? Yes, as far as I can see, it’s all true – but I don’t see how it makes a case for Clinton being deprived of actual votes cast, which is what you need to achieve here. What you do show with the evidence in that link is that the Democrats have been pathetically ineffectual at state and local level – which is exactly why I argue that we need to change the way the party operates.

  239. 239.

    Morzer

    @Mnemosyne:

    Why do you default to the claim that anyone who wants to do things differently must be in favor of appealing to racists? I have never made that argument, nor do I think such an approach would be effective. I am, however, sure that the Democratic party’s way of operating is ineffective and a slow path to disaster. That disaster will be felt most by minority voters, LGBT voters, the poor and the powerless. I wonder why you are so complacent about that outcome.

  240. 240.

    seaboogie

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    I can’t believe that in states the size of FL and OH, the Dems can’t recruit better candidates.

    Maybe OH, but have you ever been to FL? It’s batshit crazy there, and that’s not even talking politics. Florida Man is a meme for very good reason.

  241. 241.

    Morzer

    @Mnemosyne:

    The case for an audit and the case against voter suppression laws are not, actually, the same thing. My point here has been that the case for overturning the election results is a dangerously weak one, desirable as the outcome might be. That is not the same thing as arguing that the Democrats should fight voter suppression laws wherever they find them. I have doubts that the party is capable of doing so effectively, based on their record thus far – which is, in fact, part of why I argue that the party urgently needs to change the way it operates.

  242. 242.

    Mnemosyne

    @Morzer:

    Why do you default to the claim that anyone who wants to do things differently must be in favor of appealing to racists?

    Then please state what your alternate plan is for appealing to white voters in the Midwest given the reality that minority voters are being suppressed there.

    My anecdotal on the ground report from Michigan is that white voters didn’t vote for Hillary because they were pissed off about Black Lives Matter, so they either voted for Trump or didn’t cast a vote for president. What is your plan to reach those voters?

  243. 243.

    seaboogie

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    I can’t believe that in states the size of FL and OH, the Dems can’t recruit better candidates.

    Maybe OH, but have you ever been to FL? It’s batshit crazy there, and that’s not even talking politics. Florida Man is a meme for very good reason. The place is a fucking freakshow, our beloved Ms. Cracker notwithstanding.

  246. 246.

    Morzer

    @Mnemosyne:

    So now you want me to give you a plan based on your anecdotal perception of politics?

    Fine:

    Start by running better, local candidates. Run candidates for every open office, from dog-catcher to Senator. Make sure that your ground game knows the area before, for example, you send them to trailer parks that burned down months ago. Have a clear, consistent economic pitch for the voters who might be undecided or wavering. If voters don’t believe you can make their lives better economically, they’ll be open to any fraudster with a talent for telling sweet little lies. Be disciplined and smart – don’t insult voters by lumping them into negative categories. Your committed voters may like hearing you run your mouth, but loose lips sink ships. Remember that a significant chunk of even the Democratic base isn’t progressive on some of your pet issues, but will vote for a candidate who offers them enough in other areas. Don’t scorn “imperfect” voters as somehow unworthy – they can make all the difference. Don’t try and be Republican-lite, but accept that on some issues you can’t be in your face with your local voters. If you poke their sore spots, you won’t benefit from it. If you have possible negatives in your voting history, personal life, professional record, be aware of them and game out ways of countering attacks, because your opponent will not hold back. Above all, know what voters in your area are worrying about and address those issues first. Don’t run a bland, one-size-fits-all generic DNC Democrat campaign. Find a campaign identity that works for you and the people in your area. Pick your key local themes and keep talking about them – and for the love of god don’t just refer people to a website. Sell your plan locally, in person, not in the abstract. Don’t write off any area just because it’s usually red. Make the effort and dig out the blue votes that can put you over the top. Maybe a given county has only 50 Democratic voters – but if they stay home because you didn’t show up and you lose by 40 votes, that’s your problem, not theirs.

  247. 247.

    Morzer

    @Major Major Major Major:

    I’ve been a Dolfan all my conscious NFL fandom life. Heaven help me!

    And the real enemy are the Trumpriots and their deflating, headset sabotaging weaselly ways.

    Any real Dolfan knows that.

  249. 249.

    Bailey

    @Morzer:

    Fine:

    Start by running better, local candidates. Run candidates for every open office, from dog-catcher to Senator. Make sure that your ground game knows the area before, for example, you send them to trailer parks that burned down months ago. Have a clear, consistent economic pitch for the voters who might be undecided or wavering. If voters don’t believe you can make their lives better economically, they’ll be open to any fraudster with a talent for telling sweet little lies. Be disciplined and smart – don’t insult voters by lumping them into negative categories. Your committed voters may like hearing you run your mouth, but loose lips sink ships. Remember that a significant chunk of even the Democratic base isn’t progressive on some of your pet issues, but will vote for a candidate who offers them enough in other areas. Don’t scorn “imperfect” voters as somehow unworthy – they can make all the difference. Don’t try and be Republican-lite, but accept that on some issues you can’t be in your face with your local voters. If you poke their sore spots, you won’t benefit from it. If you have possible negatives in your voting history, personal life, professional record, be aware of them and game out ways of countering attacks, because your opponent will not hold back. Above all, know what voters in your area are worrying about and address those issues first. Don’t run a bland, one-size-fits-all generic DNC Democrat campaign. Find a campaign identity that works for you and the people in your area. Pick your key local themes and keep talking about them – and for the love of god don’t just refer people to a website. Sell your plan locally, in person, not in the abstract. Don’t write off any area just because it’s usually red. Make the effort and dig out the blue votes that can put you over the top. Maybe a given county has only 50 Democratic voters – but if they stay home because you didn’t show up and you lose by 40 votes, that’s your problem, not theirs.

    Bravo.

  250. 250.

    Mnemosyne

    @Morzer:

    ETA: Shorter me — we agree on strategy, but I think your tactics leave something to be desired.

    Start by running better, local candidates. Run candidates for every open office, from dog-catcher to Senator.

    I’ve been pounding that drum for years now. Unfortunately, the state parties are falling down on the job. Even worse, ordinary Democrats in those states are not stepping forward to run for those offices.

    Do you know how the Tea Party took over the Republican Party? They organized their folks to join their local parties and become precinct captains, because precinct captains help pick the local candidates. Who on the left is similarly organizing Bernie’s supporters to join the Democratic Party and reform it from the inside?

    Given that Hillary is going to end up winning the popular vote by about 2 million votes, this is clearly an issue of regions, not the direction of the national party. If you live in a state that went to Trump and you have not yet marched down to your local Democratic Party office to become a precinct captain, get off your fucking ass and do it.

    Have a clear, consistent economic pitch for the voters who might be undecided or wavering. If voters don’t believe you can make their lives better economically, they’ll be open to any fraudster with a talent for telling sweet little lies.

    You mean like “Stronger Together” and offering specific infrastructure plans for specific areas? Or being from the party that pulled the country out of the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression, got healthcare for the majority of Americans, and reduced the unemployment rate to under 4 percent? Offering free college and less expensive daycare for children? What more did you want other than “no paid speeches to Wall Street companies”?

    Here’s where you guys keep getting confused: the people who voted for Trump didn’t vote on economics. At all. They voted for him because they think the only reason they’re not millionaires is that the government is giving all of their money away to minorities. The only way you’re going to convince them to vote for the Democrats is to convince them that they will be first in line for any program designed to help the working class, and that minorities will have to take the leftovers.

    Look at Kentucky. People who depended on Kynect healthcare voted for the Republican governor who pledged to end it because they didn’t care what happened to themselves as long as minorities had it worse.

    You cannot ignore this reality because, if you do, minority voters will stop voting for Democrats, and then you’ll be in an even worse hole that you started in. If minority voters think that both parties are going to screw them, why should they vote for Democrats at all?

  251. 251.

    Mnemosyne

    And although I don’t spend much time at DailyKos, here’s an article by MeteorBlades from 2015 about the urgent need for Democrats and liberals to become precinct captains — not for the Democratic Party to change things from the top down, but for us as ordinary Democrats to get off the fucking sidelines and do the work we need to do in order to win.

    You can’t do that by carping from the outside as an independent. You can only do that by joining the party and working towards the party’s goals.

  252. 252.

    Miss Bianca

    @Mnemosyne: And…what’s holding the neo-Nazis back now? Disapprobation from the White House? Because, of course, they’re not *already* giving signs that they’re going to go ahead and target anyone who does’t meet their standards of white purity. Nah, none of them have done anything threatening yet, so let’s not rock the boat?

    Sorry , I can’t even type that with a straight face.

  253. 253.

    Raven Onthill

    J. Alex Halderman, writing at Medium:

    Were this year’s deviations from pre-election polls the results of a cyberattack? Probably not. I believe the most likely explanation is that the polls were systematically wrong, rather than that the election was hacked. But I don’t believe that either one of these seemingly unlikely explanations is overwhelmingly more likely than the other.

  254. 254.

    Elizabeth

    @Morzer:

    Hey Morzer-I did that. And knocked on 5,000 doors personally. Family and friends did another 10,000. While doing sixty hours a week at the elected office job.

    I still lost.

    Mnemosyne is one hundred percent right-everyone on here should be at their local D meetings and organizing their neighborhoods completely so that way candidates can do a more efficient job of targeting. Don’t mind hitting 5,000 doors but it helps if I can have you calling up your neighbor and saying “hey, Candidate was there the other day, don’t forget to vote for her.”

  255. 255.

    Bruce Baugh

    @Morzer: Um, the whole point of doing recounts is to look at situations where bad things MAY have happened to see if in fact they DID happen. We can’t have the kind of proof you’re talking about without doing the recounts.

    Hope this helps.

  256. 256.

    Bruce Baugh

    I always feel awkward when someone I don’t respect does something really awesome, but I’d rather be faithful to what’s true than what’s comfortable for my ego. So: Jill Stein has raised more than $2 million in one afternoon and evening, to file for recounts in Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin.

    It is, of course, a matter of practical consequence for her – as things stand, she’ll lose automatic ballot access. But anyone insists that people can only do good things when they won’t benefit in any way from them is a numpty. It should be the Clinton campaign doing this. (Also: Dear Democratic Party, the news media are not any branch of government, and you can stop accepting their calls as having any authority, any time now. Love, the People.) But I’d rather have Stein do it than nobody, though responsibility for this really shouldn’t have fallen on an anti-vaxx-catering, Putin-toadying wrecking ball of a candidate.

    They’ve got a call out at their fundraising site for election observers. The Republican thugs will certainly be there, out to replay 2000. I’d go if I weren’t across the country; I hope a bunch of good people turn out to offset the thugs.

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