Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Republicans do not pay their debts.

Let’s finish the job.

Technically true, but collectively nonsense

The next time the wall street journal editorial board speaks the truth will be the first.

Meanwhile over at truth Social, the former president is busy confessing to crimes.

Optimism opens the door to great things.

Just because you believe it, that doesn’t make it true.

The revolution will be supervised.

After roe, women are no longer free.

If senate republicans had any shame, they’d die of it.

Why is it so hard for them to condemn hate?

Infrastructure week. at last.

A snarling mass of vitriolic jackals

No offense, but this thread hasn’t been about you for quite a while.

The cruelty is the point; the law be damned.

The poor and middle-class pay taxes, the rich pay accountants, the wealthy pay politicians.

Teach a man to fish, and he’ll sit in a boat all day drinking beer.

People are complicated. Love is not.

Wow, I can’t imagine what it was like to comment in morse code.

Bark louder, little dog.

You cannot shame the shameless.

When do we start airlifting the women and children out of Texas?

The words do not have to be perfect.

Red lights blinking on democracy’s dashboard

You are here: Home / Past Elections / Election 2016 / Late Night Open Thread: Turkeys All the Way Down

Late Night Open Thread: Turkeys All the Way Down

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As an Irish-American from a deeply dysfunctional family, I thought I knew something about cherishing a grudge like it was your sickly first-born. But I cannot fathom how the New York Fecking Times, of all rich-people publications, is so committed to its Hillary-hate that it’s leaping to enable a penny-ante autocrat who’s threatened the publication, its owners, and its reporters so often and so recently.

Reader Interactions

60Comments

  1. 1.

    NotMax

    Cranberry relish prepared and in the fridge to gel. Gonna have a bit of din-din and then start on the yam dishes.

  4. 4.

    TriassicSands

    I just got finished reading the entire transcript of Trump’s meeting with the Times employees.

    Nothing I read changed my mind at all about Trump — he’s a mindless, self-aggrandizing clown who is extraordinarily inarticulate. Further, no one should believe anything he says.

    Arthur Sulzberger Jr. comes across as very unimpressive. He’s obviously most comfortable schmoozing with the rich and famous and seems unlikely to ever ask a tough question.

    Friedman is an idiot.

    The whole meeting was, to me, a huge disappointment. The questioners showed a deference to Trump that he absolutely hasn’t earned. They allowed him to ramble, often incoherently, rather than answer tough questions with substantive answers.

    As always, Trump said what he thought his audience wants to hear (as long as he needs them for something).

  5. 5.

    piratedan

    @efgoldman: yeah, the editorial board believed that having someone blindly ignorant and obtuse were winning qualities that needed to be on display to handle their discourse with the public.

  6. 6.

    Villago Delenda Est

    The personnel of the NYT deserve to be rounded up and hauled to the Drumpfenlagern to be dealt with. Fuck them. The Clinton hate has to do with the “Travelgate” brouhaha that so vexed the scum of the Village when their precious perks were taken away from them.

  7. 7.

    Mnemosyne

    Just got home from The Theatah, where we saw Hedwig and the Angry Inch. Not quite what I expected, but very very good. Apparently the script leaves some room open for improvising, because there were some up-to-the-minute topical jokes.

  10. 10.

    Ben Cisco (onboard the Defiant)

    Going to spend Thanksgiving with my mom, dad, and niece at dad’s bedside at the rehab center. The ramp and shower will be ready by the time he gets home next week.

    First Thanksgiving without Mrs. C, and I’ve had some bad moments here and there, but I won’t have to deal with any of its voters, so there’s that.

    Checking in with cousins and watching the Iron Bowl on the way back, going to enjoy that too.

    I wish you all a happy (or at least non-violent) T-day.

  11. 11.

    Ian

    I do not wish harm on any group of people. That being said, when the NYT editorial staff is put against a wall and shot I will not feel the slightest bit of remorse or loss.

    Journal of record my ass.

  12. 12.

    James Powell

    @Ian:

    I’m against capital punishment so I can’t agree with shooting them. But I would like to see the NYT publisher, editors, and several reporters sent to special re-education camps where they are required to clean hotels rooms, harvest fruits and vegetables, or operate sewing machines for the wages currently paid.

  14. 14.

    cosima

    @Ben Cisco (onboard the Defiant): Sending positive thoughts your way.

    I am thankful that I no longer feel obliged to do the TG thing, because my family always insisted that I be the host (biggest house), and not only would my mother invite (to my house) the crazy born-again-dem-hating relatives, but there would invariably be the weird single (gee, I wonder why?!) friends of my relatives that got brought to our family gatherings.

    So we will have leftovers for dinner tonight, and I will make a turkey & all of the fixings in December.

    Also voicing my support for James Powell’s plan! I’m confused about what sort of special access &/or treatment that they are worried about not getting, hence the favourable coverage. Would any person/entity think that they could rely on his assurances about giving them information/access/etc in exchange for favourable coverage?

  19. 19.

    tomtofa

    A mostly lurker here. I left the US a few days before the election (voted first); by the time I return in a week the country will have normalized itself into a fundamentally different state. It’s happening elsewhere too, of course, but I’m a bit surprised at how quickly we have tossed off all that went into the “It can’t happen here” mentality.

  20. 20.

    BRyan

    @Ian: We can’t lump all the NYT fllks together — Charles Blow’s column, “No, Trump, We Can’t Just Get Along”, referenced by a commenter in an earlier thread (so if this is too redundant, apologies) was a thing of beauty and strength.

  22. 22.

    Kathleen

    @James Powell: I must say I am enjoying Trump ripping into the media, though I’m sure as an old person I will end up on one of his lists. And what you outlined would be perfect karmaic retribution for all qualifying media jackals (there are still good ones in print and Joy Anne Reid and Soledad O’Brien on air).

  25. 25.

    Kay

    autocrat who’s threatened the publication, its owners, and its reporters so often and so recently.

    How he has done that? Trump whines they treat him unfairly. they get tons of publicity for being “tough on Trump” (although they’re not) and both Trump and the NYTimes benefit.

    This is working out for both of them. Has anyone read the transcript of their much-hyped interview with him? It was a love fest. The first question was about how Hillary Clinton is a criminal. Donald Trump is the best thing that has ever happened to these people. They’re thrilled.

    I’m hoping there’s a news agency that shines, like we saw with McClatchy and the run up to the Iraq war, but it ain’t gonna be the NYTimes. Read any of their Trump coverage. Forget the angry editorials and read what they write in the news section about Trump. It’s an absolute joke that it’s “tough” coverage. The Trump interview was tougher on Clinton than it was on Trump and she’s a private citizen now.

    Trump is a challenge, a test. We don’t know yet who will rise to the Trump challenge- there will be people and entities who do- but we sure as shit know who isn’t. The NYTimes isn’t.

  26. 26.

    Betty Cracker

    @Kay: Sometimes it seems like Trump and the NYT are playing the “face” and “heel” roles in a TV wrestling production — with the chumps in the different audiences deciding who’s who. I cancelled my NYT subscription to protest their all-emails-all-the-time coverage months ago. Haven’t seen anything since that makes me regret that decision. WaPo might sack up and oppose the Trump kleptocracy — we’ll see. The NYT won’t. Screw them.

  27. 27.

    Kay

    It continues:

    Choosing Mr. Petraeus, who resigned in 2012 in a scandal over his leaking of classified information, would be somewhat easier after Mr. Trump said he would not pursue a case against Hillary Clinton over her handling of classified emails on a private email server, one person close to the transition said.

    The NYTimes opened their interview with Donald Trump with a question that assumed Clinton has committed a crime. Trump then easily hit the question they tee’d up for him and graciously declined to prosecute Clinton for the crimes the NYTimes declared she committed.

    The next day, the New York Times reports Trump will use that interview answer to justify appointing an actual criminal.

    I mean Jesus Christ. They may as well be on the payroll. This is a game. They’re both benefiting playing it. It’s Iraq all over again.

  28. 28.

    Kay

    @Betty Cracker:

    I have a friend Jody who is a conservative. He’s disgusted with Trump and he can’t vote for a liberal so he didn’t vote. He came by the office to say Happy Thanksgving yesterday and he said he’s glad Donald Trump isn’t prosecuting Hillary Clinton.

    Mission accomplished, Trump and media. Good work collaborating on that bullshit that is now
    “truth”.

    I’m more hopeful than I was though. Just because all the existing or high-profile institutions are failing doesn’t mean someone or something won’t step up. Someone will shine in this. It just isn’t these people. Look elsewhere.

    This is an extraordinary situation. It’s really risky for ordinary people and a lot of them will get hurt, but it’s also an opportunity for new people or entities to shine. I didn’t choose to burn it all down but now that it’s collapsing I’m looking for who or what steps up. I’m confident someone or something will.

  29. 29.

    Kay

    @Betty Cracker:

    I think it’s partly the NYC thing. Trump can’t be a scary racist lunatic because those people come out of places like Indiana or Louisiana. His celebrity is partly based on location and their belief that he isn’t really a threat is too. A racist lunatic real estate developer who made his name in Arkansas would be treated a lot differently.

  30. 30.

    Taylor

    @Kay:

    I’m more hopeful than I was though. Just because all the existing or high-profile institutions are failing doesn’t mean someone or something won’t step up. Someone will shine in this. It just isn’t these people. Look elsewhere.

    I signed up for TPM Prime.

    Josh Marshall is clearly gearing up to fill the void left by our corrupt MSM (and he has accomplishments to his name). He deserves our support.

    I encourage everybody to drop their support through subscription for the NYT normalization of Trump, and divert their funds to investigative journalism instead.

  31. 31.

    Lurking Canadian

    @Kay: Kay, I don’t say this to be snarky: have you considered running for office? You have a kind of eloquence in righteous fury that I think could light fires in the kinds of people who are used to thinking the system doesn’t work for them.

  32. 32.

    Kay

    @Betty Cracker:

    I was listening to Steve Innskeep on NPR- he does a good job with Trump. Maybe the key is to NOT treat him as unusual, because that seems to lead directly to adopting rock-bottom Trump standards. Innskeep treats him like a normal President- he does terribly under the Normal President Rules because those are higher standards than special snowflake lower Trump standards.

    Anyway. We’re going to need smart and innovative and non-conventional approaches. New people and institutions. Trump didn’t destroy our institutions- he exploited their weakness and ethical bankruptcy. They were already dead- we just didn’t know it.

  33. 33.

    La Caterina (Mrs. Johannes)

    @Kay: The NY Daily News, our left leaning (sorta) tabloid had Trump correctly pegged since, oh 20 years ago, as did every New Yorker with a few brain cells. That makes the Times fiasco even more bewildering and painful for us.

  34. 34.

    Kay

    @Lurking Canadian:

    Thanks- that’s nice. I have considered running for school board. I think I would be good at the job. I had a kind of misspent youth though so I’m not sure I’m willing to risk having to explain all that. It was decades ago and it was all minor and none of it’s a secret and it probably wouldn’t matter but I’m touchy about it. So it’s fear, basically. I’m afraid to run :)

    You have to be willing to expose yourself, explain yourself. I’m not sure I’m willing to do that.

  35. 35.

    Betty Cracker

    @Kay: Yep. Still waiting for that “It Came from NYC!” think piece…

    @Taylor: That’s what I did when I canceled my NYT subscription. I’d been a TPM freeloader for more than a decade. Now I’m a paying customer. ;)

  36. 36.

    Kay

    @Betty Cracker:

    Trump is exploiting preexisting bias and weakness- he’s not creating. The institutions that were weak and able to be exploited by Trump won’t be the institutions that keep him in check. He RELIED on their weakness to rise to power.

    Has to be something new. Won’t be the people and entities that were weakened and are now failing. The collapse PREDATED Trump. We just didn’t see it until we were surrounded by rubble and it became impossible to ignore.

  38. 38.

    debbie

    @JPL:

    If 2017 isn’t better, I don’t know what I’ll do.

    @cosima:

    Thanks. It’s easy to forget the rest of the world’s going through the same shit.

  39. 39.

    GrandJury

    I’m not a lawyer but there is just no fucking way Dr. Orange can continue to be involved in his business and be prez. No way. Should be impreached day 1 if he is.

    Putting it in the kids name is not good enough. You simply cannot be prez and not have a conflict of interest. No way. And if there is anyone that is going to try take advantage of the situation it is most definitely Dr. Orange.

  40. 40.

    Aleta

    Michael Flynn (Tr chose for Natl Sec Advisor) http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-disruptive-career-of-trumps-national-security-adviser

    Flynn broke rules he thought were stupid. He once told me about a period he spent assigned to a C.I.A. station in Iraq, when he would sometimes sneak out of the compound without the “insane” required approval from C.I.A. headquarters, in Langley, Virginia. He had technicians secretly install an Internet connection in his Pentagon office, even though it was forbidden. There was also the time he gave classified information to nato allies without approval, an incident which prompted an investigation, and a warning from superiors. During his stint as Mullen’s intelligence chief, Flynn would often write “This is bullshit!” in the margins of classified papers he was obliged to pass on to his boss, someone who saw these papers told me.
    …
    McChrystal, who was appointed to run jsoc in 2003, brought Flynn in as his intelligence chief to help him shake up the organization…. But McChrystal also knew he had to protect Flynn from that same culture. He “boxed him in,” someone who had worked with both men told me last week, by encouraging Flynn to keep his outbursts in check and surrounding him with subordinates who would challenge the unsubstantiated theories he tended to indulge.
    …
    In 2012, Flynn became director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, in charge of all military attachés and defense-intelligence collection around the world. He ran into serious trouble almost immediately. I’ve spoken with some two dozen former colleagues who were close to Flynn then, members of the D.I.A. and the military, and some who worked with him in civilian roles. They all like Flynn personally. But they described how he lurched from one priority to another and had trouble building a loyal team. “He made a lot of changes,” one close observer of Flynn’s time at the D.I.A. told me. “Not in a strategic way—A to Z—but back and forth.”

    Flynn also began to seek the Washington spotlight. But, without loyal junior officers at his side to vet his facts, he found even more trouble. His subordinates started a list of what they called “Flynn facts,” things he would say that weren’t true, like when he asserted that three-quarters of all new cell phones were bought by Africans or, later, that Iran had killed more Americans than Al Qaeda. In private, his staff tried to dissuade him from repeating these lines.

    Flynn’s temper also flared. He berated people in front of colleagues. Soon, according to former associates, a parallel power structure developed within the D.I.A. to fence him in, and to keep the nearly seventeen-thousand-person agency working. “He created massive antibodies in the building,” the former colleague said.

    Flynn had been on the job just eighteen months when James Clapper told him he had to go. Clapper said that he could stay for another nine months, until his successor was vetted and confirmed, according to two people familiar with their conversation. Flynn was livid.

    After he left government, Flynn followed the path of many other retired generals and got on the television and speaking circuit. He wrote a book with Michael Ledeen, a controversial neoconservative foreign-policy analyst, about defeating terrorism. Islam is not a religion, Flynn and Ledeen wrote, but a political ideology bent on destroying Judeo-Christian civilization. Flynn began saying that he had been fired because President Obama disagreed with his views on terrorism and wanted to hide the growth of isis. I haven’t found anyone yet who heard him say this while he was still in the military. In the past, I’ve asked Flynn directly about this claim; he has told me that he doesn’t have any proof—it’s just something he feels was true. (Flynn did not respond to requests for comment for this article.)

    As Flynn’s public comments became more and more shrill, McChrystal, Mullen, and others called Flynn to urge him to “tone it down,” a person familiar with each attempt told me. But Flynn had found a new boss, Trump, who enlisted him in the fight against the Republican and Democratic Party establishments. Flynn was ready. At the Republican National Convention, Flynn boiled over in front of an audience of millions. He led the crowd in chants of “Lock her up! Lock her up!” His former colleagues say they were shocked by what they saw.

    What Flynn saw was corruption: Clinton, the media, the Justice Department, the intelligence community—they are all corrupt. …

    The lifelong intelligence officer, who once valued tips gleaned from tribal reporters, has become a ready tweeter of hackneyed conspiracy theories. He reposts the vitriol of anti-Semitic and anti-Muslim commentators. “Fear of Muslims is RATIONAL,” he tweeted in February, linking to a false claim that Islam wants eighty per cent of humanity enslaved or exterminated. “U decide,” he posted one week before the election, along with the headline from a linked story that appeared on a Web site called True Pundit: “NYPD Blows Whistle on New Hillary Emails: Money Laundering, Sex Crimes w/Children, etc. . . .

    -fron NYer, by Dana Priest

  41. 41.

    cosima

    I did post the Charles Blow NYT piece on my book of faces, but I have very few ‘friends’ on it so my reach is small & pretty insignificant. However, along with that post I reminded everyone that I posted a Washington Monthly link at the beginning of the T$%^&p phenom and told them to support a credible news organisation committed to speaking the truth without centrism! I doubt that anyone listened to me back then because my carefully-curated FB friends list is completely free of the crazy, but maybe I can get one person to buy a subscription, and they can get one person, and so on and so on. Baby steps.

    Gift subscriptions!!!!!!!!!!!

    Glad some of you clicked on the link and enjoyed it! Completely summed up my feelings about this shite year, which was made even more awful by losing someone close (much as I love David Bowie, Leonard Cohen, et al, they never invited me round for xmas).

  42. 42.

    Nicole

    @La Caterina (Mrs. Johannes): I know, right? I think of The Daily News as such a gossip rag, but it’s the only one of the 3 big papers that is doing any kind of aggressive reporting on Trump.

    Yesterday my six-year-old son and I got off the subway at Columbus Circle, right in front of the Trump Hotel. Yuck. I warned my son I was about to do something rude and flipped the building the bird for the time it took us to walk the block past the building. A man passing by stopped my son and said to him, “You have a great mom.” Tee hee.

  43. 43.

    Aleta

    NYT headline:

    Trump Diversifies Cabinet

    Reality:
    White woman picked for “education secretary” (because WW know about being teachers)

    Indian-American woman picked for UN (because foreign-looking people know how to talk to other foreigners)

    AA man picked for “urban” development (HUD) (because AA men know about “inner city”)

    (And it just seems on target that a man who ran a grifty campaign, or let others grift, will be heading housing and development.

  44. 44.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Aleta: I read the whole thing this AM. This is not surprising and meshes pretty well with what I thought had happened. Excellent tactical intelligence targeteer unable to make the transition to managing and overseeing the production of intelligence for strategic development and policy formation.

    It is an unfortunate reality that despite them being called general officers, some really are and some aren’t. Some of the general officers/flag officers (GOs/FOs) are actually able to go back and forth between the operational and generating sides of the military, and work up and down, as necessary the operational levels (national strategic, theater strategic, operational, and/or tactical). Some, however, cannot. And those are the ones that, in retrospect, have former bosses and patrons and peers come along and tell people that they were able to get them to excel because they built strong limitations on them and gave them the leeway to pick the right people to work for them. When they don’t get that, they can’t perform to standard.

    Finally, it also shows a weakness within the assignment process. Everyone wants their people around them. The personnel they’ve served with and/or mentored and are comfortable with in the key positions around them. Sometimes this works very well. Sometimes, as is being reported here, it doesn’t. Because it allows for someone to be promoted, placed, and/or promoted and placed into a billet they can’t succeed in. And a more objective process than “I wan’t X, he’s my guy/she’s my gal that I always have in this type of billet” produces. I served under a GO like this. Was put into place because he was the 4 star’s guy. He was smart, professionally and personally personable, and my understanding one of the top folks in his actual military occupational specialty. But in the job he was given because he was “the 4 star’s guy” he was a disaster. Same type of thing as reported here: wanted to do a top to bottom and side to side reorg, but it changed daily if not multiple times daily. The more permanent civilian leadership and senior colonels managed to mitigate a lot of the damage. He was just the wrong person for the job. When his 4 star boss moved, he went to a similar position under that 4 star’s control -same thing: wanted his guy there because he trusted him. Same thing happened until he had an emotional breakdown and was forced into retirement early.

    I’ve worked for other GO’s that are “somebody’s guy” and they’ve been great. And that’s the tragedy of it – there’s almost no way to tell until its too late. LTG Flynn has all the necessary education and training, and from what I understand intelligence – he’s supposed to be very, very smart – to excel as the National Security Advisor. The question is whether he’ll have the supervisory support and restrictions placed on him that GEN McChrystal gave him that allowed him to excel or whether he’ll not have them as was the case at DIA, which led to the end of his military career. And finally, whether having gotten this position will allow him to exercise some of the demons that have clearly been consuming him since his forced, early retirement or whether they’ll completely consume him and he’ll seek to settle scores with everyone who he believes has wronged him.

  46. 46.

    artem1s

    @James Powell:
    I am in accord with your plan but believe that they should be made to do a daily walk of shame, naked. They failed to notice that the emperor has no cloths. they can do without as well.

  47. 47.

    Waynski

    I have a very not Thanksgiving idea for Dems. Shun the Republicans. Shun them all. If you work at SSI, lose their file. If they need wheels on meals, make them wait. If they’re in your office, speak to them only of business. If they were previously someone at the pub who you thought you could reason with… don’t. Shun them all. They are not responsible people. They are an avaricious blight spread across the land.

    Gobble, gobble,

  48. 48.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    @Aleta: So, the appointed a Crazy Uncle as head of intelligence. While I am appalled this might hurt the country, I am sure the ensuring comedy will be unmatched.

  49. 49.

    SgrAstar

    I agree with the critique of the NYT, but publishing that session verbatim was genius. Nothing could be more effective at undermining our new president than hearing and reading his own words at the Times. He was flayed by that exposure- revealed as an utter ignoramus and stupid, to boot.

  50. 50.

    cat

    @Adam L Silverman: You head that article? They mentioned two violations that resulted in him getting ‘talked to’ that I can’t imagine being overlooked if they had been handled by the security officers.
    This isn’t accidently leaving your phone in your briefcase or trying to talk around classified information outside the SCIF and letting something slip to other cleared people. This was a permanent outside connection where it had been explicitly forbidden.

  51. 51.

    Maeve

    As an Irish-American from a deeply dysfunctional family, I thought I knew something about cherishing a grudge like it was your sickly first-born.

    I can relate. Irish Alzheimer’s — it’s when you forget everything but your grudges.

  52. 52.

    D58826

    @Adam L Silverman:

    And finally, whether having gotten this position will allow him to exercise some of the demons that have clearly been consuming him since his forced, early retirement or whether they’ll completely consume him and he’ll seek to settle scores with everyone who he believes has wronged him.

    delayed PTSD? maybe?

    @cat:

    a permanent outside connection

    Will be interesting to see if this gets as much attention as Hillary’s server.

  53. 53.

    D58826

    @Kay: I think I have solved the ‘why she lost’ mystery. My sister and BIL who have hated the Clintons with a passion of a million suns since the 1990’s, voted for Hillary this year. For them Trump was a bridge to far. But the disturbance in the force was so great Hillary could not recover :-)

  54. 54.

    Marina

    I emailed this to the NYT yesterday. I’m sure they’ll run it (yeah, right), and it’ll make a real difference (ditto). I did it anyway; I was just so fucking pissed. Then I made a pumpkin buche, which will have mascarpone with stabilized whipped cream, cinnamon, diced dried apricots, and shredded dark chocolate inside and a chocolate ganache cover once I walk away from the computer. An artist/scientist friend is decorating it. All he asked for was flesh-colored marzipan. Not sure what the theme is.

    I tell myself that life goes on, but can’t help thinking, not as I know it.

    I’m asking for TPM Prime for Christmas.

    To the Editor:

    Re “How Conservative Sites Turn Celebrity Despair on Its Head” (Arts front page, Nov. 22): To make her point that liberal celebrities ‘energize the opposition’, with the clear implication that they should sit down and shut up, Amanda Hess employs overtly slanted language. Liberals are ‘aggrieved’, ‘whining’, ‘pathetic,’ and ‘weepy’. Their attitudes are ‘flip’. They ‘rail’. They ‘sing HRC’s praises’—(maybe they just stood up for what they believed in?). They live in a ‘privileged bubble’–based on what, exactly? The actions of “Hamilton” actor Brandon Victor Dixon in making a heartfelt plea to Vice President-elect Mike Pense are ‘controversial’–by whose reckoning?

    This is an opinion piece. It has no place in Arts.

  55. 55.

    cat

    @D58826: Doubt it. Petraeus shared classified info with his uncleared biographer and had unsecured classified info at home. Should have been prison time.

    “There were factors that made the resolution of the case appropriate,” Holder said. “There were some unique things that existed in that case that would have made the prosecution at the felony level and a conviction at the felony level very, very, very problematic.”

    Those factors? Very expensive defense lawyers and a high-status defendant. The mid-level hoarder who never disclosed the info is going to prison I bet.

  56. 56.

    D58826

    @cat: I was think of the recent erratic behavior with regard to PTSD.

    Ther internet connection and documents was just usual stupid.

  57. 57.

    Elie

    @Kay:

    I’m more hopeful than I was though. Just because all the existing or high-profile institutions are failing doesn’t mean someone or something won’t step up. Someone will shine in this. It just isn’t these people. Look elsewhere.

    This is an extraordinary situation. It’s really risky for ordinary people and a lot of them will get hurt, but it’s also an opportunity for new people or entities to shine. I didn’t choose to burn it all down but now that it’s collapsing I’m looking for who or what steps up. I’m confident someone or something will.

    Thank you and I agree that this is and will continue to shatter our current institutions and expectations.. I fear we may have to spiral out of control or have real catastrophes first, because I do not believe that the current institutions and people vested in “normalizing” this horror will be ready to give up — they will fight it until they cannot. We will continue to hear and see the NYT and WSJ and the Democrats in Congress as well as the Republicans, and many other entities, try to keep a “face” on it while behind the scenes they know we are probably fucked but just can’t make themselves publicly acknowledge it.

    There is a great book about survival in dire adventure situations called “Deep Survival: why people live or die…” by Laurence Gonzales. He speaks of one common approach used by those who tended to survive even the most harrowing experiences: they got into the reality of their situation real quick and didn’t waste time pining for what should or could have been.

    We need to get there real quick because things are going to speed up right after the inauguration, and we need to be psychologically and tactically ready for that and not delude ourselves (meaning not just us B-Jers, but all those who want to fix this horror), that this is anything but a collapse of our system of liberal governance and culture. There is no easy fix for this just at the next election. We have 90% occlusion of the main artery to our political sustainability as a free and diverse people. We are gonna have to fight — hard — to recover it.

  58. 58.

    sukabi

    @Kay: the whole NYT “meeting” was likely a setup from the beginning…”we’ll send over the questions we’re going to ask, edit as you like (we’ll help you with appropriately softening your responses), we’ll squabble over the meeting prior… you be magnanimous and ‘accept’ our terms. The meeting tajes place, transcripts published. We both win.”

  59. 59.

    sukabi

    @La Caterina (Mrs. Johannes): I think it’s a matter of a couple of organizations (drumpf, inc. & NYT) realizing that their games are better served joing forces… think of it as a grand con.

    NYT has been a tool for the wealthy to sell their wars, policies, ect for decades. Drumpf is now what they’re selling because those things won’t be impacted negatively.

  60. 60.

    ChrisGrrr

    @Kay:

    Someone will shine in this. It just isn’t these people. Look elsewhere.

    You are one of the main reasons I check this place out (nearly) every day.

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