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You are here: Home / Politics / domestic terrorists / Open Thread: Pizzagate — You Can Fix Ignorant, But You Can’t Fix (Deliberately) Stupid

Open Thread: Pizzagate — You Can Fix Ignorant, But You Can’t Fix (Deliberately) Stupid

by Anne Laurie|  December 5, 20169:00 pm| 169 Comments

This post is in: domestic terrorists, Excellent Links, Hail to the Hairpiece, Open Threads, Republican Venality, All we want is life beyond the thunderdome, Bring On The Meteor, Decline and Fall

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Pizzagate, possibly to become the textbook example of how inventing “fake news” can lead to “real, tragic consequences”. I’ve been ignoring it — I suspect a lot of us have — because it seems one of those wingnut-shit-dumps designed, like cholera, to spread its contagion further with every mention. But given that one of its deluded proponents has managed to push the argument from banned-on-reddit to national news outlets, I’m gonna recomend Gizmodo‘s “Pizzagaters Aren’t Giving This Shit Up“:

For months, 4chan and Reddit users have delved deep into the emails of John Podesta as they were released by Wikileaks and concluded that the emails contained coded language about a secret child-trafficking ring operating out of Comet Ping Pong, a Washington DC pizzeria—a ring ran by Podesta and former presidential hopeful Hillary Clinton. The theory was known as “Pizzagate,” and until recently it was just another of the internet’s outlandish conspiracy theories. Two of pizzagate’s loudest mouthpieces have backed off their support after a man armed with a AR-15, a Colt. 38, and a shotgun entered the restaurant to “investigate.” And yet, pizzagate somehow trudges on, without them.

(Pizzagate has been debunked by Snopes and the New York Times, and one of its biggest communities—r/pizzagate—was booted off Reddit for the repeated release of personally identifiable information, as Gizmodo reported last week.)

Two of the most vocal (and visible) entities propping up pizzagate’s absurd claims were, predictably, arch-troll Mike Cernovich and the Alex Jones’ Infowars….

There have always been people on the fringes making unsubstantiated claims and then covering their asses, just as there have always been angry, confused people willing to believe and forgive them. And while connections have been drawn by other outlets to Welch’s associations as a possible motivation for entering an otherwise unassuming pizzeria with a small arms cache, the connection is unprovable. But, hopefully the risk of having emboldened a gunman might cause Cernovich, Jones, and their ilk to reconsider fueling the fires of internet conspiracies.

What we’ve all been learning during Trump’s ascendence, though, is that the fringes are closer than ever to the center of power in this country. Among the pizzagate truthers, as Politico reported yesterday, is Michael Flynn Jr., close adviser to his father Lt. Gen. Michael Flynn—Trump’s pick for national security adviser…

Maddison Welch has the excuse of being a petty-criminal substance abuser with nothing more pressing on his calendar than investigating the ‘basement sex tunnels’ in a building with no basement. But what’s Alex Jones’ excuse — or Lt-Gen Flynn’s? Lulz nothing matters?

George Orwell would’ve been so impressed! All human knowledge and history accessible at the click of a few buttons, and people are using it… to embed themselves, and each other, further and further in a matrix of unbreakable, shatterproof STUPID.

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169Comments

  1. 1.

    chopper

    December 5, 2016 at 9:04 pm

    the whole conspiracy theory would be at least mildly funny if it wasn’t leading assholes to start shooting up the place. what a shithole of a country.

  2. 2.

    Tilda Swinton's Bald Cap

    December 5, 2016 at 9:05 pm

    @chopper: Third world with nukes !

  3. 3.

    Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (Formerly Mumphrey, et al.)

    December 5, 2016 at 9:07 pm

    This shit isn’t far from where I live. This feels personal to me. Fucking dickwads. I fucking hate these people. Sometimes, when I go to my dark place, I hate all people.

  4. 4.

    Wapiti

    December 5, 2016 at 9:08 pm

    Sorry, but “… Michael Flynn Jr., close adviser to his father Lt. Gen. Michael Flynn…” How hapless can Flynn be that he goes through a ~30 year career and now needs his own son’s advice? “Yer diaper is on backwards, Dad.”

  5. 5.

    Baud

    December 5, 2016 at 9:09 pm

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (Formerly Mumphrey, et al.): I hated all people before the election. It is a dark place to be. Try to prevent it if you can.

  6. 6.

    NotMax

    December 5, 2016 at 9:12 pm

    Can we please, if the term must be used, call it so-called pizzagate or phoney pizzagate or something similar, every single fracking time? Lack of a qualifying adjective for truth gives the term a credence it does not merit.

  7. 7.

    Baud

    December 5, 2016 at 9:12 pm

    Aside from the gun, pizzagate is no more pernicious a lie than POETUS alleging that millions of illegal votes were cast for Hillary.

  8. 8.

    Major Major Major Major

    December 5, 2016 at 9:14 pm

    All human knowledge and history accessible at the click of a few buttons, and people are using it… to embed themselves, and each other, further and further in a matrix of unbreakable, shatterproof STUPID.

    Are you at all surprised this is what we use the internet for?

  9. 9.

    PhoenixRising

    December 5, 2016 at 9:14 pm

    He hit a black kid with his car rather than change lanes. Kid has to be helicoptered to the hospital. That’s the community standard this scuzzball couldn’t quite manage to comply with: 6 weeks before getting famous, he ran his car over a kid who was on the white line & put him in the hospital.

    The fake news drew out a violent person who is accustomed to a lack of accountability if his violence is directed against the right people. Not so sure the fake news is the problem. Symptomatic, yes.

  10. 10.

    Rob

    December 5, 2016 at 9:18 pm

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (Formerly Mumphrey, et al.): We go to Comet, the coffee/deli place next door, and the bookstore a couple doors down a fair amount. This has definitely shaken us up.

  11. 11.

    SFBayAreaGal

    December 5, 2016 at 9:18 pm

    How about it be called an attempted terrorist attack. Oh I forgot because he’s white, can’t be a terrorist

  12. 12.

    SFAW

    December 5, 2016 at 9:19 pm

    @Baud:

    alleging that millions of illegal votes were cast for Hillary.

    TEFA was almost right: millions of legal votes for Hillary were illegally prevented.

    Of course, there’s also the flip side: millions of “voters” too fucking stupid to exist — and whose stupidity should have kept them from voting — cast their vote against Hillary

  13. 13.

    Tilda Swinton's Bald Cap

    December 5, 2016 at 9:20 pm

    Here’s a picture of the shooter. He looks economically anxious.

  14. 14.

    Ian

    December 5, 2016 at 9:21 pm

    1984 and Idiocracy have proven to be documentaries, not political spoofs. For shame America.

  15. 15.

    Botsplainer

    December 5, 2016 at 9:22 pm

    @SFBayAreaGal:

    Lone Wolf!

  16. 16.

    Major Major Major Major

    December 5, 2016 at 9:22 pm

    @Tilda Swinton’s Bald Cap: oh man, we better bring some factory jobs back to him STAT

  17. 17.

    Baud

    December 5, 2016 at 9:23 pm

    @Tilda Swinton’s Bald Cap: I blame NAFTA.

  18. 18.

    JPL

    December 5, 2016 at 9:23 pm

    @SFAW: Actually we don’t know how those illegal votes were cast. I assume that’s how Trump won.

  19. 19.

    Tilda Swinton's Bald Cap

    December 5, 2016 at 9:23 pm

    @Major Major Major Major: Steel Mills for everyone. You get a steel mill and you get a steel mill…

  20. 20.

    Mike E

    December 5, 2016 at 9:23 pm

    Speaking of the law(s), this too is a bfd for NC.

  21. 21.

    Ian

    December 5, 2016 at 9:24 pm

    @SFAW:

    TEFA was almost right: millions of legal votes for Hillary were illegally prevented

    From what I have seen it is probably only a couple hundred thousand. Not that it is excusable, but it may not have been outcome changing.

  22. 22.

    Roger Moore

    December 5, 2016 at 9:24 pm

    @NotMax:

    call it so-called pizzagate or phoney pizzagate or something similar

    Given that it’s something false made up to fool the gullible, I think “pizzagate hoax” would be the best description.

  23. 23.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    December 5, 2016 at 9:27 pm

    Jake Tapper had some kind of twitter dust-up with the Flynnling

    Dan Murphy ‏@ bungdan 21h21 hours ago
    Dan Murphy Retweeted Michael G Flynn ??
    “My daddy haz medals so I can be a lying sleaze bag and endanger innocent peoples’ lives as much as I want.”
    Michael G Flynn ?? @ mflynnJR
    For all those not aware….@ jaketapper trolling the family of a highly decorated retired military officer thru DM. 4 the last hour #Classy

  24. 24.

    Snarki, child of Loki

    December 5, 2016 at 9:28 pm

    Pizzaghazi just doesn’t sound right.

    But there’s definitely something hinky with a pizza joint named “Comet Ping Pong”. Is Elvis working in the kitchen, incognito?

  25. 25.

    Schlemazel

    December 5, 2016 at 9:28 pm

    I don’t believe this is an accident. I believe this is a demonstration of power.

    If you disagree with us, if you oppose us we can have you killed by remote control with a simple lie

    People who were defending COment have been doxxed and receiving death threats. This is nothing more than a warning shot, obey or be crushed.

  26. 26.

    Mart

    December 5, 2016 at 9:29 pm

    Somebody needs to explain to me how an incorrigible figures that it makes sense for two of the most famous people in the world, both multimillionaires, to embark on a child sex business out the back of a pizza shop. What kind of return on investment is there in pizza child porn that would make up for wiping out of everything you have spent your entire life to obtain. The stupid, it still burns.

  27. 27.

    boatboy_srq

    December 5, 2016 at 9:31 pm

    @Tilda Swinton’s Bald Cap: I’m starting to think the US is actually “fourth world”. The Third World knows it’s broke and uneducated. What’s happening in the US is different.

  28. 28.

    Major Major Major Major

    December 5, 2016 at 9:31 pm

    @Ian: millions of eligible voters would have been affected, but most of them were not going to vote anyway.

  29. 29.

    bmoak

    December 5, 2016 at 9:31 pm

    @Rob: The coffeeshop and the bookshop, as well as a few other shops on the block, have been “linked” to the pedophile ring at Comet Ping-Pong, and are also bring harassed and threatened.

    Chuck C. Johnson has offered a $2500 bounty for pictures of the secret tunnels that connect all these stores with the underground kiddie sex rooms.

  30. 30.

    Villago Delenda Est

    December 5, 2016 at 9:32 pm

    @Schlemazel: This is the first step in outright, open Civil War.

  31. 31.

    Rob

    December 5, 2016 at 9:32 pm

    @Schlemazel: Schlemazel, where did this appear? I haven’t been following this story all that closely in spite of going to Comet every so often.

  32. 32.

    bmoak

    December 5, 2016 at 9:33 pm

    @Snarki, child of Loki:

    It’s like Dave & Buster’s, but instead of video games to go with your pizza, they have ping-pong and other table games.

  33. 33.

    Schlemazel

    December 5, 2016 at 9:33 pm

    @Ian:
    300,000 were prevented from voting in Wisconsin, Trump won by less than 30,000. Wanna reconsider that belief voter suppression didn’t affect the outcome?

  34. 34.

    Mnemosyne

    December 5, 2016 at 9:34 pm

    If you’re looking for a temporary escape from the news, you can vote on which Cary Grant comedy you’d like to watch for the next Weekend Movie Club. Poll closes on Friday night, so vote early and vote often!

  35. 35.

    Rob

    December 5, 2016 at 9:35 pm

    @bmoak: Just today I heard about Little Red Fox being harassed. The bookstore being harassed doesn’t surprise me now. Their member’s sale is this weekend, and we’re planning on going for that.

  36. 36.

    Baud

    December 5, 2016 at 9:35 pm

    @bmoak: And Sean Hannity said he’d be waterboarded for charity. Didn’t happen.

  37. 37.

    amk

    December 5, 2016 at 9:35 pm

    @boatboy_srq: Yup. The ‘third world’ might be poor and uneducated but they sure aren’t politically stupid and ignorant as murkkka.

  38. 38.

    Mnemosyne

    December 5, 2016 at 9:35 pm

    @Ian:

    Trump won by less than 110,000 votes if you combine all three states (MI, WI, and PA). Still want to assure us that “a couple of hundred thousand” more votes for Hillary wouldn’t have made a difference?

  39. 39.

    Major Major Major Major

    December 5, 2016 at 9:36 pm

    @bmoak: and, like Dave & Busters, underground sex tunnels.

  40. 40.

    Jeffro

    December 5, 2016 at 9:37 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Tapper’s about this close to jumping off the Villager Express and turning into a damn hippie. Welcome aboard Jake. We may smell a little funky but at least we don’t foam at the mouth

  41. 41.

    Baud

    December 5, 2016 at 9:38 pm

    @Jeffro: I’m still mostly in blackout mode. That’s incredible.

  42. 42.

    Jeffro

    December 5, 2016 at 9:38 pm

    @Snarki, child of Loki: It’s actually a pretty cool place and the pizza is gooo-oo-ood. (We usually get crap pizza at the Fro household; it’s nice to make a stop for the good stuff once in a while)

  43. 43.

    NotMax

    December 5, 2016 at 9:39 pm

    @Major Major Major Major

    And if the kid doesn’t arrive within 30 minutes, it’s free.

    /really bad taste

  44. 44.

    Jeffro

    December 5, 2016 at 9:39 pm

    @Baud: He’s doing some venting via Twitter, plus the occasional on-air call out of RW guests’ BS.

  45. 45.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    December 5, 2016 at 9:39 pm

    @Jeffro: Glenn Thrush too, though I only follow him sporadically. I don’t expect it to last.

  46. 46.

    Schlemazel

    December 5, 2016 at 9:39 pm

    @Rob:
    nobody is saying it but it seems obvious. There are a large number of people who were pushing back against the BS and have stopped because they have been getting death threats. fringe Republicans, but Republicans on the Trump train, have been pushing the hoax. So, ask yourself why would they do that? There is no gain in it for them if Comet is run out of business, there is no benefit if people there get shot up. That is unless the point is to serve as an example to those who might be bold enough to oppose them. They probably can’t get away with it with an important person, say a Warren or Schummer but they can do it to you or me and pretend their hands are clean

  47. 47.

    Jeffro

    December 5, 2016 at 9:41 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    This is the first step in outright, open Civil War.

    They telegraph what they want to do, to see what the reaction is…if there’s not sufficient pushback, then they proceed. Hence the need to fight back hard now, early, often, always.

  48. 48.

    Baud

    December 5, 2016 at 9:42 pm

    @Jeffro: Agree.

  49. 49.

    Truegster

    December 5, 2016 at 9:42 pm

    They’re also linking the conspiracy to some Austin pizza place, it has an occult style symbol and something something I dunno. We are going to go through some weird Paranoid Style of American Politics. I fear that it’ll go for 8 years because the Repubs pull disenchantment tricks quickly and the media gets conned by Don easily. A few more Carrier stunts, he repeals NAFTA and he could get two terms.

  50. 50.

    SiubhanDuinne

    December 5, 2016 at 9:43 pm

    a ring ran by Podesta and former presidential hopeful Hillary Clinton.

    ~ ~ shudder ~ ~

  51. 51.

    Jeffro

    December 5, 2016 at 9:44 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: That made me think of ol’ Glenn Beck, who is calling Trump’s moves and intentions out as accurately and publicly as, well, as Joy Reid or Paul Krugman. Truly, the mind boggles. I’m okay with “living through history” for a little while longer but then perhaps everything could get the heck back to normal. Is there anyone here who wouldn’t settle for a few years of GHWB-esque “leadership” at this point, compared to the cliff we’re about to go over?

    (And by the way I only raised that to make a point: GHWB can bite me.)

  52. 52.

    Lizzy L

    December 5, 2016 at 9:45 pm

    There is no such as peak wingnut. Every time you think they simply can’t take the shit any higher, they do.

  53. 53.

    the Conster, la Citoyenne

    December 5, 2016 at 9:46 pm

    I’ve been on media blackout since the election, and I have no idea what #pizzagate is, and just let me tell the rest of you, the lack of context when reading about it here is mind bogglingly absurd. Like, post modernist dadaist.

    We’re lost.

  54. 54.

    Rob

    December 5, 2016 at 9:46 pm

    @Schlemazel: Argh.

  55. 55.

    schrodinger's cat

    December 5, 2016 at 9:47 pm

    Giving this story oxygen is exactly what they want us to do. Stop playing into their hands.

  56. 56.

    Schlemazel

    December 5, 2016 at 9:47 pm

    You know how we see so many of the GOPs scare tactics as projection . . . pedophilia is a big boogeyman with them . . .

  57. 57.

    Mike E

    December 5, 2016 at 9:48 pm

    @Mnemosyne: His Girl Friday… crackling dialog, winning cast.

  58. 58.

    Mnemosyne

    December 5, 2016 at 9:48 pm

    @Jeffro:

    This. Anyone who works in civil rights can tell you that the #1 way to prevent neo-Nazis from infesting your town is to push back hard with a huge amount of community turn-out. As far as the neo-Nazis are concerned, silence = consent.

    (Autocorrect kept turning “neo” into “bro.” Heh.)

  59. 59.

    Villago Delenda Est

    December 5, 2016 at 9:49 pm

    @Schlemazel: It is ALWAYS projection with these assholes. ALWAYS.

  60. 60.

    Mnemosyne

    December 5, 2016 at 9:49 pm

    @schrodinger’s cat:

    When it comes to neo-Nazis, you have to push back, and do it immediately. Otherwise, they assume they have silent support. So, yes, this is a case where it’s important to give the whole wacky case as much publicity as possible to shut it down.

  61. 61.

    Darkrose

    December 5, 2016 at 9:50 pm

    @Jeffro: Speak for yourself! I shop at Black Phoenix Alchemy Lab and I smell very good!

  62. 62.

    Mary G

    December 5, 2016 at 9:51 pm

    I’ve been out all day having an infusion, but this is ridiculous. I saw a headline proposing that blue states take up the cause of states rights, and I was kidding about CalExit, but now I wonder.

  63. 63.

    Ian

    December 5, 2016 at 9:51 pm

    @Schlemazel:
    Scott Walker is a douche, but the handful of electoral votes Wisconsin has would not change the outcome.

  64. 64.

    schrodinger's cat

    December 5, 2016 at 9:51 pm

    @Mnemosyne: Carry on then!

  65. 65.

    gogol's wife

    December 5, 2016 at 9:54 pm

    @Jeffro:

    Maybe he’ll appear in the BJ comments again, as he did a few years ago.

  66. 66.

    Adam L Silverman

    December 5, 2016 at 9:54 pm

    @NotMax: How about domestic terrorism? I’m good with that.

  67. 67.

    ET

    December 5, 2016 at 9:54 pm

    The original “sroty” was likely made up by guys like those profiled in that Washington Post article a week or so who make shit up for a buck and don’t think or care once they hit the publish. The same idiots falling for it are now saying this most recent even was a fake or he was an actor. Mainstream news organizations are up against this which seems to be part of Trump’s post truth America and they (and we) are really not shire how to deal with it because it really is batshit insane.

  68. 68.

    Darkrose

    December 5, 2016 at 9:54 pm

    @schrodinger’s cat: Sorry, no. The time for that has passed, and it got us all of this shit going down while no one was paying attention. We need to pull back the curtain and be loud and vocal so that these assholes can’t hide.

  69. 69.

    Jeffro

    December 5, 2016 at 9:56 pm

    @Mnemosyne:

    (Autocorrect kept turning “neo” into “bro.” Heh.)

    “bro-Nazis”…copyright that quick!

  70. 70.

    Mart

    December 5, 2016 at 9:56 pm

    I read a NYT story on this and they never mentioned Alex Jones as a source spreading this crap. Donald Trump spreads Jones’ crazy conspiracy theories, Trump supposedly called him after the election to thank him for his help. And Jones still has a national media presence.

    Now pizza parlor workers need to be in fear for their lives. Can we have a fund-raiser to try and sue Jones? This is not free speech.

    Also too I stupidly followed a link with shocking Facebook restaurant entries! Of course a quick Snopes search and the bastards stole photos of kinds of parents that had friend-ed the restaurant; and put all kids of horrible text next to their pics. But one of the Pizza owners had gay sex with Media Matters David Brock, so they had it coming…

  71. 71.

    West of the Rockies (been a while)

    December 5, 2016 at 9:57 pm

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (Formerly Mumphrey, et al.):

    I hear ya, Smedley… I am feeling very misanthropic today. NPR has a couple stories up tonight about fake news and CTs. Interesting stuff.

  72. 72.

    Adam L Silverman

    December 5, 2016 at 9:58 pm

    @Major Major Major Major: I used to tell my students, when I was an academic, as a warning when using the Internet for research that: “95% of everything on the Internet is crap. The over 5% is porn. Of that 50% requires you to pay a monthly fee, the rest is crap.” And I’d still have Jewish American students turn in term papers on religion in politics in the US where they had the made up anti-Semitic George Washington quotes from the neo-NAZI and Aryan Nation’s websites. And when you explained to them that 1) the citations were fabrications and 2) if they couldn’t verify it through a legitimate reference source, then they couldn’t use it, they’d go bitch to the department chair.

  73. 73.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    December 5, 2016 at 9:58 pm

    @Jeffro: BroNZIs?

  74. 74.

    Iowa Old Lady

    December 5, 2016 at 9:58 pm

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne: Even when you have the background, it’s still like that.

  75. 75.

    tobie

    December 5, 2016 at 9:59 pm

    @Mnemosyne: Your numbers are off. He won MI, WI, and PA by a total of 80,000 votes (roughly 46K in PA, 10K in WI, and 23K in MI).

  76. 76.

    Baud

    December 5, 2016 at 9:59 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: likey

  77. 77.

    Jeffro

    December 5, 2016 at 10:00 pm

    @Ian:

    Scott Walker is a douche, but the handful of electoral votes Wisconsin has would not change the outcome.

    I hear you, but that’s kind of a narrow view of the impact here. If voter suppression tactics like those used in Wisconsin had not been in play this election, we likely wouldn’t be stressed as all hell about PEOTUS Arsonist. It wouldn’t have just been Wisconsin in Hillz’ win column…many other states would have gone for her, just based on that kind of ‘chilling’ effect alone.

    It’s vitally important that Dems keep education and voting rights in mind as overall strategic imperatives. They matter everywhere, every time.

    Oh and because it’s just so true, it bears repeating: Scott Walker is a major-league douche.

  78. 78.

    Baud

    December 5, 2016 at 10:00 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: They should have cited the porn.

  79. 79.

    Adam L Silverman

    December 5, 2016 at 10:00 pm

    @PhoenixRising: Again, I’m good with domestic terrorist. How bout you?

  80. 80.

    Major Major Major Major

    December 5, 2016 at 10:01 pm

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne: no, I’ve been reading the news and let me tell you that’s what this story sounds like to me too

  81. 81.

    Citizen Alan

    December 5, 2016 at 10:02 pm

    Given the fact that nearly everything Republicans accuse Democrats of doing is actually the result of projection, is it is it unreasonable to speculate about whether Flynn Jr is himself a pedophile? Is it unreasonable not to?

  82. 82.

    brendancalling

    December 5, 2016 at 10:02 pm

    @Tilda Swinton’s Bald Cap: it will be soon.

  83. 83.

    Cacti

    December 5, 2016 at 10:02 pm

    This fellow has some serious economic anxiety going on.

  84. 84.

    schrodinger's cat

    December 5, 2016 at 10:03 pm

    @Darkrose: OK I am convinced of your position, see #55

  85. 85.

    Villago Delenda Est

    December 5, 2016 at 10:06 pm

    Disinformation, that is, fake news, is nothing new. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is a prominent example. This is an old Russian tradition.

    We’re seeing it updated, big time, for the 21st Century, and gullible wingnut idiots are lapping it up. The “sex ring” makes no sense if you spend 10 seconds examining it critically, but these vile twits want to believe, if only to justify their own votes for a known sexual pervert.

  86. 86.

    Jeffro

    December 5, 2016 at 10:08 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: I think the Internet is giving most everyone a variation of Dunning-Kruger: we have this massive amount of information at hand at all times, so we feel smarter and therefore are less likely to recognize what we don’t know, have never known, could never know (because it isn’t true) and so on. And yet, few people are interested in paying attention to basic flaws in our hardwired thinking. I mentioned (several threads ago) that just educating the public on confirmation bias might go a long way (both for Dems’ electoral chances and for us as a society in general)…I still think that’s true.

    Anyone have some favorite, not-too-dense books on thinking? I know Jonathan Haidt’s The Righteous Mind is one of mine. And the Heath brothers’ books are good layman’s takes on making better decisions (and more).

  87. 87.

    Schlemazel

    December 5, 2016 at 10:08 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est:
    We need to start looking for their pedophile ring then, that IS scary

  88. 88.

    Schlemazel

    December 5, 2016 at 10:11 pm

    @Ian:
    yeah because voter suppression ONLY happened in Wisconsin. It is hard to imagine you are this naive, I’m smelling the distinct odor of troll here.
    Read @tobie: ‘s comment and then tell me how you want to downplay the role of voter suppression in this election

  89. 89.

    Adam L Silverman

    December 5, 2016 at 10:12 pm

    @Baud: It would have been better than trying to site a white supremacist site that I’d been tracking as part of my research work.

  90. 90.

    The Dudeist

    December 5, 2016 at 10:12 pm

    @efgoldman: dig deep in the link and the twitter feed has one dummy arguing it’s real and the media ignored gatlinburg (bull) and some geek named mychael is arguing with an egg because the egg owned him.

  91. 91.

    Villago Delenda Est

    December 5, 2016 at 10:13 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: “cite a white supremacist site” perhaps?

  92. 92.

    Adam L Silverman

    December 5, 2016 at 10:14 pm

    @Jeffro: No argument here.

  93. 93.

    Omnes Omnibus

    December 5, 2016 at 10:14 pm

    @The Dudeist:

    some geek named mychael is arguing with an egg because the egg owned him.

    It makes me sort of sad that I understood that.

  94. 94.

    schrodinger's cat

    December 5, 2016 at 10:14 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: What was their grade on that paper?

  95. 95.

    Major Major Major Major

    December 5, 2016 at 10:17 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: sounds like Beckett.

  96. 96.

    Adam L Silverman

    December 5, 2016 at 10:19 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est: long day, I think I’m actually running a fever. Ecspekd multipal bespoake tiepoes and spilling irurs.

  97. 97.

    SiubhanDuinne

    December 5, 2016 at 10:21 pm

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Ecspekd multipal bespoake tiepoes and spilling irurs.

    Feal beddor sune.

  98. 98.

    Adam L Silverman

    December 5, 2016 at 10:22 pm

    @schrodinger’s cat: This was back in 2002, so I have no idea off the top of my head. Because of 9-11, my terrorism seminar went from an upper level 30 student cap to a 300 plus student lecture course to accomodate all the students. If they could have gotten additional rooms/times, I had a waiting list so long I could have added two more 200 to 300 student sections.

  99. 99.

    Adam L Silverman

    December 5, 2016 at 10:23 pm

    @SiubhanDuinne: Thang uwe!

  100. 100.

    schrodinger's cat

    December 5, 2016 at 10:23 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: Me too. I decided to take a long walk, because it was snowing and looked so pretty. Now I am achy all over and since I haven’t fully recovered from the bad cold that I had been nursing for a couple of weeks

  101. 101.

    schrodinger's cat

    December 5, 2016 at 10:24 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: You wuz in demand!

  102. 102.

    NotMax

    December 5, 2016 at 10:25 pm

    @Adam L. Silverman

    Bqwhtever ewe cei.

  103. 103.

    Anne Laurie

    December 5, 2016 at 10:26 pm

    @Adam L Silverman:

    I’m good with domestic terrorist.

    You’re right, of course. (I just added the category tag.)

  104. 104.

    Schlemazel

    December 5, 2016 at 10:26 pm

    @Adam L Silverman:
    “It is a weak mind that can concieve only one way to spell a word” – Andrew Jackson

    There is an interesting story behind that quote but as a bad speeler I love the quote anyway

  105. 105.

    Major Major Major Major

    December 5, 2016 at 10:28 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: uwe?

  106. 106.

    Adam L Silverman

    December 5, 2016 at 10:28 pm

    @schrodinger’s cat: Yep. Only fish in the UF pond that specialized in terrorism and low intensity warfare. I had gotten the course scheduled to start winter semester 2002. When 9-11 happened things got very busy for me.

  107. 107.

    Adam L Silverman

    December 5, 2016 at 10:31 pm

    @schrodinger’s cat: Here it was in the 80s and humid. Not sure what the deal is, but I knew something was up when I went to the gym, cranked through 40 minutes on the Helix at level 10, and didn’t break much of a sweat. Normally I’m drenched. Right now I feel like my head is several sizes too small and my stomach is upset. I’m hoping it’ll have passed by morning, but am worried it won’t.

  108. 108.

    mainmata

    December 5, 2016 at 10:32 pm

    Personally, I hope the POS from NC that shot up the Comet Pizza (Ping-Pong) place gets convicted and a really hefty sentence. Not slamming the gun nuts hard is simply encouraging them to make other “statements” and “investigations”. This needs to be quashed right away or we have chaos.

  109. 109.

    Adam L Silverman

    December 5, 2016 at 10:33 pm

    @Major Major Major Major: I didn’t want ewe. Nor eww. And I was mucking about with you, but didn’t want just “U” or to really push the Welsh “ww”, so uwe.

  110. 110.

    Jeffro

    December 5, 2016 at 10:33 pm

    @Adam L Silverman:

    I had gotten the course scheduled to start winter semester 2002. When 9-11 happened things got very busy for me.

    Yeah I’ll bet, holy cow…

    I took International Terrorism as a Political Science elective back in the very early 90’s…it was one of four A’s that I earned my in my entire undergraduate experience. I forget the instructor’s name, but I know we were told early on if we wanted to wrap our head around this field, we were going to have to get rid of “jingoistic crap” and simple solutions. It probably did more to aid my critical thinking skills than any other course I took or book I read.

  111. 111.

    Omnes Omnibus

    December 5, 2016 at 10:33 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: FWIW, there is a two day-ish stomach bug going around.

  112. 112.

    tobie

    December 5, 2016 at 10:34 pm

    @Schlemazel: The combination of voter suppression and inadequate/inoperable voting equipment in poorer, urban areas had a profound impact on this election. I just read this article in the Detroit News concerning the recount effort in Michigan. For complicated reasons, we likely will never get an accurate count of the votes cast in Detroit and Flint because so many of the optical scanners in those two localities broke on election day. It’s crazy-making. Poor, blue areas in this country are systematically stripped of the right to vote and/or the right to be counted.

  113. 113.

    Lizzy L

    December 5, 2016 at 10:34 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: I don’t, I don’t want to, and I don’t want anyone to explain it to me.

    Pleasant news: my household put up Christmas lights tonight. White sparklies on the rear house window, blue dangly lights on the front house porch, and white and blue strands wound round the camellia bush. Some of my neighbors have gone way over the top — every inch of house is covered with sparkly things.

  114. 114.

    NotMax

    December 5, 2016 at 10:35 pm

    @Adam L. Silverman

    Trakkink.

  115. 115.

    Adam L Silverman

    December 5, 2016 at 10:35 pm

    @Anne Laurie: I had been planning a “today in stochastic terrorism” post with this, but since you got it, and I’m not feeling so hot, we’re good.

  116. 116.

    Jeffro

    December 5, 2016 at 10:35 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: yeah, but then you lose the effect of having “bro” (and all its negative connotations) separated out like in “bro-Nazis”. Or risk it being confused with folks who are REALLY into getting a good tan.

  117. 117.

    Major Major Major Major

    December 5, 2016 at 10:37 pm

    @Jeffro: the latter was my primary concern. Well, secondary. The primary concern is, they’re Nazis!

  118. 118.

    Adam L Silverman

    December 5, 2016 at 10:37 pm

    @Jeffro: Not a lot of places taught courses on it back then. Even when I finished my doctorate, neither polisci nor criminology as disciplines, post 9-11, really knew what to do with the few of us that were studying this. Since 2001 there’s been exponential growth.

  119. 119.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    December 5, 2016 at 10:37 pm

    /whispers… Laurence O’Donnell is doing a segment on the 2020 Dem field…./

    @Lizzy L: in spite of being a general crank whose personal motto should be “Bah! Humbug!” I love this time of year, including the lights

  120. 120.

    Adam L Silverman

    December 5, 2016 at 10:38 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: Is it going around where I live or just Wisconsin? Because I haven’t been in Wisconsin since 1986.

  121. 121.

    Omnes Omnibus

    December 5, 2016 at 10:38 pm

    @Lizzy L: We got our first snow yesterday. Late afternoon, as the sun was going down and shining on the snow covered tree branches, was gorgeous.

  122. 122.

    mainmata

    December 5, 2016 at 10:38 pm

    @Snarki, child of Loki: It’s a pretty cool place, laid back, not an engine of the apocalypse.

  123. 123.

    Omnes Omnibus

    December 5, 2016 at 10:39 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: I’ve heard of cases here and in DC. I assume it is widespread.

  124. 124.

    Brachiator

    December 5, 2016 at 10:39 pm

    @Jeffro:

    I think the Internet is giving most everyone a variation of Dunning-Kruger

    Is that anything like Diane Kruger?

    How would you categorize the following:

    The Internet puts fact and truth immediately in front of people in seconds. This has created tremendous anger in people who cannot deal with having their “deeply held personal convictions” challenged or refuted. One of the results has been creation of sites that deal in falsehood and pseudo knowledge that give people a safe place to nurture their insecurity and ignorance.

    And then you have people who simply repeat a lie, a myth, a falsehood and pretend that there is proof for their position when there is none.

    On comparatively trivial level, I also find interesting people who will accept evidence, but who don’t want to put in the slightest effort of personal investigation. So they will say “I’m too lazy to look this up myself, but can someone summarize the major points of X and Z news story?”

  125. 125.

    Adam L Silverman

    December 5, 2016 at 10:41 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: I’ll be on the lookout!

  126. 126.

    NotMax

    December 5, 2016 at 10:42 pm

    @Jeffro

    Braryans?

  127. 127.

    Major Major Major Major

    December 5, 2016 at 10:42 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: is it too early to start pimping Hickenlooper?

  128. 128.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    December 5, 2016 at 10:44 pm

    @Major Major Major Major: I bet he would say no

  129. 129.

    Omnes Omnibus

    December 5, 2016 at 10:45 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: I am backing Clooney.

  130. 130.

    OGLiberal

    December 5, 2016 at 10:45 pm

    An FB friend of mine reposted some silly story about Hillary only winning 57 counties. I linked to a snopes article refuting that silliness and was informed that snopes is a commie liberal rag. I then linked to a news source indicating she won about 420 counties.

    Crickets.

    Then I noted that Obama beat Romney by 4 percent while only winning 689 counties, the lowest in history before 2012.

    Crickets.

    I then noted that while Trump did win the EC, who wins the most counties is basically irrelevant and that Hillary won the popular by 2.5M with those measly little 420 counties.

    Crickets.

    Finally, I note that Clinton won 76 counties in CA, NY and TX alone.

    Crickets.

    Facts mean nothing to these people. They’ll ignore them and/or attack the source.

    They are truly helpless, easily mislead, and willfully ignorant. And there are many who, while I know they didn’t share my politics, I at least respected before this year.

    Yet there enough of them that we have Trump.

    Ugh.

  131. 131.

    Major Major Major Major

    December 5, 2016 at 10:45 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: not with the new wife. That’s the word on the mean streets of Denver at least.

  132. 132.

    PIGL

    December 5, 2016 at 10:49 pm

    @Schlemazel: would not help, now. Don’t you see? Both sides do it.

  133. 133.

    Fair Economist

    December 5, 2016 at 10:50 pm

    @Citizen Alan:

    Given the fact that nearly everything Republicans accuse Democrats of doing is actually the result of projection, is it is it unreasonable to speculate about whether Flynn Jr is himself a pedophile? Is it unreasonable not to?

    In this case the projection is probably about the fact that Trump really DID run a pedophile ring as a part of a modeling business in the 80’s.

  134. 134.

    Adam L Silverman

    December 5, 2016 at 11:00 pm

    @Major Major Major Major: Is there a minimum break in period for a new wife before she’s ready to be First Lady?

  135. 135.

    Major Major Major Major

    December 5, 2016 at 11:02 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: when the old one’s been a wet blanket on your political aspirations since you first ran for mayor? Six months?

  136. 136.

    Jeffro

    December 5, 2016 at 11:03 pm

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Not a lot of places taught courses on it back then. Even when I finished my doctorate, neither polisci nor criminology as disciplines, post 9-11, really knew what to do with the few of us that were studying this. Since 2001 there’s been exponential growth.

    No doubt. It really was quite eye-opening, even back in those days – we were asked to come up with possible terrorist attack scenarios and how to respond, address how emerging technologies might enable (or cripple) terrorist cells, all of it. It’s fair to say I was highly engaged.

  137. 137.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    December 5, 2016 at 11:04 pm

    @Major Major Major Major: ah, now I get what you’re saying.

    When I said Hickenlooper would say no, I meant; “no, it’s not to early to start discussing his candidacy”

  138. 138.

    Adam L Silverman

    December 5, 2016 at 11:07 pm

    @Major Major Major Major: Okay, I’ll update the checklist.

  139. 139.

    Adam L Silverman

    December 5, 2016 at 11:08 pm

    @Jeffro: May I ask which college/university this was at?

  140. 140.

    Major Major Major Major

    December 5, 2016 at 11:09 pm

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Ohhhh.

  141. 141.

    Jeffro

    December 5, 2016 at 11:11 pm

    @Brachiator: I’d put it this way: when you have the entire storehouse of human knowledge at your fingertips, PLUS a ‘fiction library’ undreamt of in human history, PLUS a system where search results and social networks can direct you to paid and/or ‘true believer’ sites, without (most of us) having undergone any sort of critical thinking course(s) or other training…then yeah, it’s a disaster waiting to happen.

    As I mentioned a ways above, just a 15-minute primer on confirmation bias would go a long way towards stemming this putrid tide. (As long as it didn’t use too many big words, I guess). As I have long told my brother (usually in regards to his political predictions, which always have a bit of built-in RW partisan hopefulness): when what I want to happen is what I think will happen…I need to double-check that, stat.

  142. 142.

    Jeffro

    December 5, 2016 at 11:12 pm

    @OGLiberal: You should just join in and hoot n’ holler and note how much sheer land mass was won by Trump…

    …then remind them that land mass doesn’t vote, and most people live in nice big ol’ BLUE cities ;)

  143. 143.

    Omnes Omnibus

    December 5, 2016 at 11:14 pm

    @Jeffro: @Adam L Silverman: It really is a new area. My school had nothing of the kind in the early to mid 80s. It does now. I would have taken such a course had it existed. OTOH, we had The Expert on the Electoral College, who thought it was undemocratic, outdated, and due for abolition (RIP Larry Longley).

  144. 144.

    Lizzy L

    December 5, 2016 at 11:17 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: Beautiful. @Adam L Silverman: It’s everywhere. I had it (lightly, for one day) in CA. We also have some really nasty viruses making the rounds at the moment, heavy bronchial inflammation, really long term violent coughing, lasting weeks.

  145. 145.

    Adam L Silverman

    December 5, 2016 at 11:17 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: Him and some schmo named James Madison. What did they know?

  146. 146.

    Adam L Silverman

    December 5, 2016 at 11:18 pm

    @Lizzy L: Great. I’m getting my hazmat suit…

  147. 147.

    Omnes Omnibus

    December 5, 2016 at 11:21 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: I still have my gas mask. I wonder how effective the 25 y/o filters are.

  148. 148.

    Adam L Silverman

    December 5, 2016 at 11:24 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: More effective than no filters at all.

  149. 149.

    Omnes Omnibus

    December 5, 2016 at 11:25 pm

    @Adam L Silverman: Is the flu more virulent than Sarin?

  150. 150.

    Major Major Major Major

    December 5, 2016 at 11:25 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: I have mine too, but mine are only ten years old.

  151. 151.

    Omnes Omnibus

    December 5, 2016 at 11:26 pm

    @Major Major Major Major: You really were a Major?

  152. 152.

    Adam L Silverman

    December 5, 2016 at 11:27 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: I surely hope not.

  153. 153.

    OGLiberal

    December 5, 2016 at 11:33 pm

    @Jeffro: I also sent him a link to a map of the county level results in 2012 which, like this year, showed a large sea of red with blue on the edges and noted that if number of counties won mattered, President Romney would have won in a landslide.

    Crickets.

  154. 154.

    Jeffro

    December 5, 2016 at 11:37 pm

    @OGLiberal: After you wear him down with stuff like that, he might be more amenable to the (gasp) facts and an alternate way of seeing how we vote here in these great YOO-nited states.

    Like so.

  155. 155.

    NickM

    December 6, 2016 at 12:39 am

    @Schlemazel: I agree. Stochastic terrorism can replace an SA type paramilitary on the cheap. No brown uniforms, teaching misfits how to march and deniability.

  156. 156.

    TriassicSands

    December 6, 2016 at 12:42 am

    @OGLiberal:

    A number of years ago I had an email exchange with a local (Western Washington) right wing nut job blogger who insisted that what should count in elections is “area,” not number of votes. Kind of a “One acre, one vote” approach to democracy. In Washington the situation is analogous to the country as a whole, just on a smaller scale. Democrats are concentrated in the corridor north and south of Seattle in a relatively small area but the “vast” eastern part of the state is all red. To the nut job, a quick look at such a map made it clear that Republicans should hold every statewide elective office.

    He may have died by now, but if not, I’m sure he’s immersed in all the craziest conspiracy theories.

  157. 157.

    Xenos

    December 6, 2016 at 12:47 am

    So is a conspiracy to incite violence with outrageous defamatory statemens a crime? I would like to see the stores go after Alex Jones on this, and pursue Flynn, Breitbart.com and so on. Subpoena their email – it would be fun.

    Politically and morally, this is terrorism and a hate crime. They want people to be terrorised from openly supporting Democrats, minorities, and so on. And the conspiracy reaches into the Trump administration.

  158. 158.

    fuckwit

    December 6, 2016 at 12:48 am

    Bring on the Brawndo!

  159. 159.

    sigaba

    December 6, 2016 at 12:51 am

    @OGLiberal:

    Facts mean nothing to these people. They’ll ignore them and/or attack the source.

    They are truly helpless, easily mislead, and willfully ignorant. And there are many who, while I know they didn’t share my politics, I at least respected before this year.

    People you argue with, if they’re of the conspiratorial mindset, once you actually lay out the facts, they go into a state that I can only describe as “historical re-enactor mode.” You can debunk all you want, but the conversation goes like they’re a Civil War infantryman and you’re telling them about your iPhone.

    You shouldn’t see this behavior as “crazy” or misguided, it’s a form of snub and sign of contempt — they’re taking a piss on you. They’re using the world for their entertainment and then they’re just pretending you don’t exist when it isn’t fun for them anymore. That’s what conspiracy theories are, a form of entertainment and performance art.

  160. 160.

    Xenos

    December 6, 2016 at 1:01 am

    @sigaba: a coordinated campaign to promote a conspiracy theory like this ought to be defamatory. Especially since the victims are private parties. No need to prove malice.

    Anyone with a few million handy to spend on lawyers? This might even bring in the Mercer family, and would very much be worth it.

  161. 161.

    Brachiator

    December 6, 2016 at 3:19 am

    @sigaba:

    That’s what conspiracy theories are, a form of entertainment and performance art.

    No. Not quite. It’s a way for the insecure and helpless to regain a sense of control. Conspiracy theories often revolve around some secret known only to a few, which would save the world if only everyone else would just believe. Or some secret that makes the theorist nutjob special. Or they have worked out the truth to some deep supposed mystery, such as 911 or the Kennedy assassination.

  162. 162.

    gene108

    December 6, 2016 at 4:08 am

    I told you the rabbit hole went deep. I’ve been sitting on this one for about a day — mainly because I didn’t want to believe what this email was saying. Here is the original document. Now in the beginning of the thread, this monster said he never had an affair — which immediately red flags this email as being sexual in nature.

    Then it goes on to discuss how children 11, 9 and 7 would be in the hot tub ‘for further entertainment’. Bear in mind, this email wasn’t sent to children, but old men in Washington.

    >> On Thu, Oct 8, 2015 at 9:26 AM, Tamera Luzzatto >> wrote: >> >> With enormous gratitude to Advance Man Extraordinaire Haber, I am popping >> up again to share our excitement about the Reprise of Our Gang’s visit to >> the farm in Lovettsville. And I thought I’d share a couple more notes: >> We plan to heat the pool, so a swim is a possibility. Bonnie will be >> Uber Service to transport Ruby, Emerson, and Maeve Luzzatto (11, 9, and >> almost 7) so you’ll have some further entertainment, and they will be in >> that pool for sure. And with the forecast showing prospects of some sun, >> and a cooler temp of lower 60s, I suggest you bring sweaters of whatever >> attire will enable us to use our outdoor table with a pergola overhead so >> we dine al fresco (and ideally not al-CHILLo). >>


    Link to conspiracy website.

    The bolded part in th hacked e-mail of John Podesta is used as proof that he and his friends and family molest children, because why else would adults think children are “further entertainment”.

    This is not just in wing-nut circles, but is making the rounds to conspiracy minded folks, such as anti-vaxxers and/or 9/11 Truthers.

    There’s no stopping it.

    It has a life of its own.

  163. 163.

    gene108

    December 6, 2016 at 4:22 am

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    but these vile twits want to believe, if only to justify their own votes for a known sexual pervert.

    The people I have run across, who are all in on #pizzagate, did not vote.

    Unlike the Jade Helm conspiracy theories, which did not make it outside the wing nut bubble, this has pulled in conspiracy minded folks far and wide.

    Either the D,C, police have to give that block of businesses, in and around Comet pizza, and Comet pizza, added protection or they may have to shutdown,

    The bakery next door apparently, per the conspiracy theory, is also involved in child trafficking because of a symbol they painted on their shopfront window, which is, per the conspiracy, a universal symbol for child trafficking.

    The thing with conspiracy theories is the lack of proof is only further evidence of how nefarious the conspiracy is and how powerful people are squashing the truth, therefore the only solution is to expand “research” into the conspiracy.

  164. 164.

    Ian

    December 6, 2016 at 4:52 am

    @Schlemazel:
    I don’t downplay it, and I think I have had enough conversations with you here to get past the troll discount. The voter suppression is real and it is serious. If you actually believe that we would have gotten A) all of the disenfranchised votes, B) they all would have turned out, and C) this occurred at high enough levels to affect multiple states (including PA with a dem gov), and D) they let the voter fraud occur to affect the prez election but not governor elections (see Cooper). The Democratic party has a voter suppression problem, but it has a much larger voter turnout problem.

  165. 165.

    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism

    December 6, 2016 at 5:50 am

    @Ian:

    they let the voter fraud occur to affect the prez election but not governor elections (see Cooper)

    You would not believe the number of people I gave up on when they kept citing “all the things Hillary has gotten away with” but who enthusiastically agreed that McCrory had to go.

    I would not be at all surprised to see a lot of NC ballots with nothing marked for President.

  166. 166.

    jharp

    December 6, 2016 at 9:57 am

    PizzaGate had a much better outcome that BabyPartsGate where Robert Holmes murdered three in Colorado Springs in reaction to a fake news story.

    Why in the fuck do we let Republicans get away with this shit?

  167. 167.

    horse dave

    December 6, 2016 at 11:30 am

    This story reminds me of the conspiracy industry in Pakistan. For anything that goes wrong there are hundreds of conspiracy theories usually involving the CIA, NSA, and/or the Indian Intelligence service. These stories are useful to the rulers because it deflects the actual blame and allows the rulers to control a significant segment of the population.

    I don’t know how but these fake stories have to be countered or we’ll soon be a 3rd world state.

  168. 168.

    Carolyn M Kay

    December 6, 2016 at 5:09 pm

    You can’t fix ignorant if ignorant wants to remain ignorant. And right wingers are PROUD of their ignorance.

  169. 169.

    h.brown

    December 7, 2016 at 6:18 am

    Just sayin: Wonder how long this fake news BS would have somewhat of a life of its own if Mr. Flynn was arrested for conspiracy to commit a crime with Mr. Welch. Yes the Flynn’s have enough money to ensure that they would probably get off with minimal sentence or??? …. But suspect that the Mr. Welch’s of the world could possibly realize that there was a cost for spreading the BS which in most cases they could not afford… And IF these two gentlemen were convicted, there would be almost no chance of them getting a security clearance to work in/with the government… Suspect that the impact would be minimal for Michael G. Flynn but as a deterrent for others spreading this kind of BS!!!!!

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