Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

I’m more christian than these people and i’m an atheist.

I like political parties that aren’t owned by foreign adversaries.

If rights aren’t universal, they are privilege, not rights.

Optimism opens the door to great things.

Let’s delete this post and never speak of this again.

All hail the time of the bunny!

She burned that motherfucker down, and I am so here for it. Thank you, Caroline Kennedy.

Motto for the House: Flip 5 and lose none.

You cannot love your country only when you win.

Stop using mental illness to avoid talking about armed white supremacy.

When do we start airlifting the women and children out of Texas?

Michigan is a great lesson for Dems everywhere: when you have power…use it!

SCOTUS: It’s not “bribery” unless it comes from the Bribery region of France. Otherwise, it’s merely “sparkling malfeasance”.

People are complicated. Love is not.

The republican speaker is a slippery little devil.

Technically true, but collectively nonsense

Lick the third rail, it tastes like chocolate!

Disappointing to see gov. newsom with his finger to the wind.

DeSantis transforming Florida into 1930s Germany with gators and theme parks.

Good lord, these people are nuts.

Everybody saw this coming.

My years-long effort to drive family and friends away has really paid off this year.

Republicans are the party of chaos and catastrophe.

The media handbook says “controversial” is the most negative description that can be used for a Republican.

You are here: Home / Foreign Affairs / You don’t know how lucky you are boys

You don’t know how lucky you are boys

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Without Comey and rampant Broderism this never would have worked…but it did:

The CIA has concluded in a secret assessment that Russia intervened in the 2016 election to help Donald Trump win the presidency, rather than just to undermine confidence in the U.S. electoral system, according to officials briefed on the matter.

Let the eagle soar.

Reader Interactions

349Comments

  1. 1.

    Trentrunner

    Bygones. No one will care or act on it. Trump will deny it, and that will be that.

    Times we live in…

  4. 4.

    Baud

    I met a couple of white progressives the other day who were still focused on emails and speeches. Add that to your list.

  7. 7.

    Mnemosyne

    It’s okay, the trolls are all assuring me that there’s nothing to see here, and the dozen or so connections to Russia that surfaced during the election are all just a series of unrelated coincidences.

    But for some reason, they all keep calling me “comrade” when they say it … ?

  8. 8.

    Politically Lost

    I think I caught some eagle shit in my eye as she flew over.

    Speaking of flying, the wife and I will be leaving the confines of the glorious left coast for the women’s march on Inauguration Day.

    Hope there’s a few juicers there too. I’m thinking of blue balloons with a sign telling those fuckers to jump.

  10. 10.

    D58826

    Not to worry but McConnell, when briefed, dismissed it as partisan posturing by the Obama WH.

    And it does reopen the question did Russia hack the election returns and flip the results.

  11. 11.

    Yarrow

    Is there any chance the election results could be declared invalid? Isn’t that what happened in Austria and the reason they just had their recent election – it was a do over for one where they didn’t trust the results or something?

    Seems like if there’s plenty of proof of Russian hacking and disruption it might be something to think about. I know, I’m also dreaming of pigs flying and rainbows and ponies. And unicorns.

  12. 12.

    PhoenixRising

    McConnell said aloud that any effort to hold anyone accountable for Russian interference in our election would be considered partisan politics and resisted by his caucus.

    Go out in the backyard and dig a bunker, ya’ll, because GOP congresscritters will not stop Trump until after he has proven that our 5 decades FTF with Russia were all wasted years, lives and treasure. For the glory of the Party, they will open up the doors for Russians to choose our government.

  17. 17.

    Laura

    And the republicans who were briefed about it insisted to keep it quiet. We know they always pick party over country but this is so far beyond that.

    So very sickening.

  20. 20.

    Major Major Major Major

    I was saying on the thread this morning that what is bothering me at the moment isn’t that the con was run, and while of course it’s apocalyptically terrible that it succeeded, it was such a bad con and so fucking obvious if you were paying even the slightest attention.

    If you suggested this to the writers of Leverage they would have laughed at you.

  21. 21.

    PhoenixRising

    Just looked it up. In today’s dollars, we spent $8 trillion on the Cold War, plus over 100,000 dead, plus the casualties of wars in Korea and Vietnam, plus dead Korean, Chinese and Southeast Asians in the 2-4million range if you want to account for *all* the dead of the American war in Vietnam (that’s backing out the French war’s body count).

    And stupid, ignorant, selfish bigots who thought yelling about Muslims was the cake, not the frosting, just gave away the win.

    America.

  26. 26.

    Aleta

    All the intelligence they have on Manafort should be released to the public right away.

    Beyond that, what should or can be done about the election now?

  27. 27.

    SiubhanDuinne

    I’m beginning to figure out why I wake up screaming around 3:00 a.m. every morning.

    (Seriously, it’s amazing if I make it through the night to 5:00 a.m. Sometimes I can get back to sleep for a bit, other times not. It is not healthy, and I know I’m very far from the only one who suffers from manic insomnia these days.)

  28. 28.

    SFAW

    @Mnemosyne:

    It’s okay, the trolls are all assuring me that there’s nothing to see here, and the dozen or so connections to Russia that surfaced during the election are all just a series of unrelated coincidences.

    I’m guessing you’re talking about your stalker, Nearly Russian/Not Rational/Not-able-to Read.

    After the smackdown it (in its Not-able-to Read guise) gave you when you called Bernie a latter-day Kim Philby and paminyatchik, you don’t seem especially chastened. Perhaps it needs to return to wag its finger at you, yet again, with EVEN MORE made-up shit. No doubt it will make you cry, etc., etc.

  31. 31.

    khead

    Now, it’s true that they also sneer at us. Fair enough. But as all good liberals know, there’s a big difference between a powerful group sneering at a vulnerable group, and vice versa. The former is a far bigger problem. And we educated city folks are, on average, far richer and more powerful than ruralish working-class folks. Our sneering has a power component that theirs doesn’t. I confess that it’s fun, and I enjoy my share of sneering in private, but I also accept that this attitude has political costs.

    This comment from Kevin Drum is just…. bugging me. The educated city folks are also…. hmmmm, how can I put it?… a bit less white. Like, a lot less. Turns out this election was a referendum on who had the most “sneer power” and – here’s a hint Kevin – it ain’t the city folk liberals.

  32. 32.

    Elie

    Oh man — I believe that the shit is just beginning… don’t give up so soon and give into cynicism. Not all parts of a wheel hit the ground at the same time… I believe that the pot is just starting to simmer and that “our side” and “their side” is not going to be as clear as we think. Obama and his people aren’t stupid and neither is Clinton. Stay tuned. There will be a lot more (IMHO). Things could get very strange

  34. 34.

    SiubhanDuinne

    Have just had a brief FB private message exchange with my brother. He seemed genuinely shocked to learn that I’m no longer very interested in staying in the U.S. or even in Georgia. He wants me to move out to Arizona. Fat fucking chance.

    I told him I don’t particularly want to live in a state where the majority of voters voted for Trump. Don’t know how he voted, although I have my suspicions, but I think he was really surprised to learn that my political views might end up affecting my, you know, LIFE DECISIONS.

  35. 35.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Chris Hayes worries this story is too hard for Americans to understand. It’s a rare instance when somebody exceeds my underestimation of the American voter.

    @khead: It was the “more powerful” part the brought me up short. We’ve just had yet another lesson, the same one we’ve had for years from the Senate, from King Corn, in the power of the mostly empty rural states.

  36. 36.

    schrodinger's cat

    Republicans have wanted to overthrow the New Deal, since it came into existence. It gave the middle class power and a voice. The oligarchy has fought back. That’s why the media backed Trump, their bosses wants what he wants. Follow the money, the rest is just a sideshow.

  37. 37.

    SFAW

    @maurinsky:

    So, Republicans are not just intransigent assholes, but traitors, to boot.

    I was going to tut-tut you, because I was going to note that they’ve been that way for a while. But then I realized that they’ve been treasonous motherfuckers for a while, but not actively aiding (at least, that I was aware of) a foreign power’s efforts to undermine the US Government.

    So, thanks.

    [Of course, better minds than I may tell me I have my “definitions” (so to speak) wrong, but we’ll see.]

  39. 39.

    SFAW

    @schrodinger’s cat:

    Republicans have wanted to overthrow the New Deal, since it came into existence.

    I think a number of the formerly-wingnuttiest used the term “Constitution in Exile.” Of course, due to this “election,” they’re now mainstream. Fuckers.

  40. 40.

    JPL

    Since the CIA told Senators before the election, and they didn’t want it released before the election, does this mean Comey was complicit? I’m naive by nature so forgive me for asking.

  41. 41.

    Yarrow

    @Elie: Yep. Following various people online it’s interesting to see people from different parts of the political spectrum band together to push for this investigation. And the CIA v FBI struggle is going to be very interesting to watch.

  43. 43.

    germy

    Schooley ‏@Rschooley 2m2 minutes ago
    You don’t surround yourself with generals for the pleasure of their company.

  45. 45.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    per Rachel Maddow: Comey was in the meeting when reps from the Executive Branch tried to persuade the Congressional leadership to go public with this information, and Mitch McConnell objected that the information was not conclusive. In September

  48. 48.

    LesGS

    @SFAW: I think the word “seditious” has been appropriate to describe the Republicans for quite some time now. I think with current evidence that they were unwilling to address Russian interference in our national elections, it’s fair to say they’ve slipped a toe or two over the line into “treasonous.” They weren’t looking to benefit Russia, but they were quite willing to let Russia benefit them.

  49. 49.

    misterpuff

    Amurica First, My Ass!

    McConnell – Patriot. Turtle’s name should live in Infamy much like Benedict Arnold.

  50. 50.

    Mike G

    @Major Major Major Major:

    It was such a bad con and so fucking obvious if you were paying even the slightest attention.

    Maybe that was the point more than changing the result.
    Watch the country tear itself apart when the bad con is revealed, and the usual craven whores defend or excuse it because winning by any means is all that counts to them. And sowing long term discord by casting suspicion on presidential elections for all time.

  54. 54.

    Major Major Major Major

    For years now people have been looking at me like I have two heads when I talked about Wikileaks, or Snowden, or the media being complicit with republicans, or Russia… who’s laughing now?

    None of us. None of us are laughing.

  56. 56.

    PhoenixRising

    @germy: The coup carried out by GOP staffers in FL and SCOTUS wasn’t a rehearsal or a probe, it was the enactment of the GOP’s only principle: Whatever it takes to get power is legal.

    By re-electing a very popular POTUS, who accomplished a few things such as making rich people pay some taxes and preventing them from poisoning us all for profit, we showed them that ‘what it takes’ had been raised. So they did what it now takes.

    McConnell and his gang put party before country, and Obama let them get away with it because he too believed the polls and thought Hillary would have to hammer it out with them now. This is a Greek tragedy set in contemporary times.

  59. 59.

    Botsplainer

    As I think about it, I’m actually OK with Trump’s cabinet.

    Is there anybody less competent and more prone to quickly fouled lousy fucking decisions than an American C Suite occupant or meritorious inheritor? And we’ve got a bunch of them around one table, stomping each other’s toes, as Trump wasn’t smart enough to simply pick smart lobbyists who actually understand their jobs.

    They’ll fuck up in spectacular fashion, and quickly.

    Likewise, the generals in the security apparatus are also going to fuck in in a big way, as they’re chosen for aggressiveness. They’ll overextend immediately and put a lot of folks in the service in a lousy spot.

  60. 60.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    from the Keeping it 1600 podcast, when Cornell University invited the President of Taiwan to speak on campus in 1995 or so, Chine responded by conducting missile tests ominously close to the Taiwanese coast. We responded by sending the largest (IIRC) naval force we had deployed to the area since the Korean War. I was thinking that China’s response to Trump’s call, and anything else he/they/we might try over the next few years will not be military, it will be something like this, something indirect, something “cyber” to borrow a phrase, something more insidious than a display of military power.

  62. 62.

    Lizzy L

    @Botsplainer: I think it’s a mistake to lump Mattis with Flynn and Kelly. My guess is he won’t last a year: T will ask him to leave, or he’ll resign.

  63. 63.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Baud: I met a couple of white progressives the other day who were still focused on emails and speeches. Add that to your list.

    There’s something almost endearing about MSNBC pimping the Chris’n’Bernie One The Road To Kenosha bit. “almost”, in that I’d still like to go Elvis on my TV overtime they do so.

  64. 64.

    jk

    @PhoenixRising:

    McConnell said aloud that any effort to hold anyone accountable for Russian interference in our election would be considered partisan politics and resisted by his caucus.

    There are no limits to the depths of Mitch McConnell’s scumbaggery. This guy deserves to burn in Hell for eternity.

  65. 65.

    Jeffro

    @Botsplainer:

    As I think about it, I’m actually OK with Trump’s cabinet.

    You mean Bannon’s cabinet, right? The guy who wants to tear down the entire establishment, i.e., the entire government?

    Is there anybody less competent and more prone to quickly fouled lousy fucking decisions than an American C Suite occupant or meritorious inheritor? And we’ve got a bunch of them around one table, stomping each other’s toes, as Trump wasn’t smart enough to simply pick smart lobbyists who actually understand their jobs.

    They’ll fuck up in spectacular fashion, and quickly.

    I hear you, and they will, but in the process, a LOT of people are going to get hurt, and we’ll spend 4 years just trying to minimize the damage instead of making progress in this country.

  66. 66.

    JPL

    This might be good news for Romney. Trump is brazen enough to still appoint Tillerson, but his ties to Russia might appear to be too close.

  67. 67.

    germy

    “I’ll be the first one to come out and point at Russia if there’s clear evidence, but there is no clear evidence — even now,” said Rep. Devin Nunes (R-Calif.), the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee and a member of the Trump transition team. “There’s a lot of innuendo, lots of circumstantial evidence, that’s it.”

    “A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest”

  68. 68.

    Yarrow

    Anyone living in Louisiana or who knows someone living in Louisiana – tomorrow is election day in the Senate race. We could still add one more Democratic Senator, Foster Campbell. Vote!

  69. 69.

    MuckJagger

    I may have found the single dumbest thing I’ve ever read on the internet. From the comments section of a Boston Globe story:

    “LMAO you morons can believe Russia interfered in our election yet Pizzagate is fake.”

    It’s gotten five Likes so far.

  71. 71.

    Duke's Archives

    My 71 yr old father (retired machinist) was stunned that he’s basically lived long enough to witness the Great Regression.

  72. 72.

    germy

    Obama dispatched Monaco, FBI Director James B. Comey and Homeland Security Secretary Jeh Johnson to make the pitch for a “show of solidarity and bipartisan unity” against Russian interference in the election, according to a senior administration official.

    Specifically, the White House wanted congressional leaders to sign off on a bipartisan statement urging state and local officials to take federal help in protecting their voting-registration and balloting machines from Russian cyber-intrusions.

    WaPo

  74. 74.

    Steeplejack

    @khead:

    And maybe it’s rich and powerful up where Kevin Drum is, but even a cursory reading of, say, this blog, for instance, shows you that a lot of “educated city folks” are just scraping by.

    (There needs to be a word similar to anecdata to describe when someone falsely extrapolates from their own experience to the general or universal. Perhaps Kaelstroika, after Pauline Kael, who famously wondered how Richard Nixon got elected when no one she knew—​on the Upper West Side of Manhattan—​voted for him.)

  76. 76.

    Aleta

    @Aleta: Seems like there’s nothing in our system to protect against an election result based on manipulated, bad information … so the only ones who have the power to act on such a result are the electors, if enough believe Trump to be incompetent ? And there aren’t sufficient Rs, I’m assuming, who are brave enough+unbiased to the point of voting for Hillary. (If the electors do act) does this leave a vote for different R as the only thing that could keep the House out of the decision, and stop Trump ? I’m feeling very shaky on this civics stuff — I daydreamed through all of it and wrote funny notes back and forth because I thought it didn’t matter. Wrong again!

  80. 80.

    Jeffro

    @Laura:

    And the republicans who were briefed about it insisted to keep it quiet. We know they always pick party over country but this is so far beyond that.

    So very sickening.

    Yup. They were okay with it as long as it benefitted the GOP. I think Senator Corker even blew it off publicly, “Other countries interfere in other countries’ elections all the time”, as if it were okay anywhere, much less IN HIS OWN COUNTRY. But we avoided electing History’s Greatest Monster, so there’s that…ugh…

    Obama can point out, easily, that if the Chinese government had hacked RNC emails and dribbled them out to get Clinton elected – and did get her elected – that half the country would already be in flames. Especially if Trump had won the popular vote by 2.5M? Sheeeeit. And THEN if Hillz had started in on a GOP-nightmare agenda (whatever the mirror image of what Trump’s doing with his picks for Education, EPA, HHS, HUD, etc)??? Sheee-eeee-eee-it.

    I hope Hillz has her “unity government” speech ready…there’s going to be a lot of pressure on those Electors to go with the popular-vote-winning, not-Putin-puppet winner, and the one thing that will make it easier (while also showing her patriotism, vs Donald’s sheer greed) is if she extends an olive branch and offers to put some Rs in her cabinet, maybe even serve just one term.

    Anyway, it ain’t over yet! It’s A NEW HOPE: THE CIA STRIKES BACK: RETURN OF THE COMPETENT!

  81. 81.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @raven: I think arty means artillery, and a redleg louie is a kind of chicken, coveted for its flavorful dark meat.

    @Baud: I think it’s going to be the progressive political media equivalent of when Apple gave everyone that free U2 download nobody wanted. God bless Chris Hayes’ earnest little heart.

  85. 85.

    Yarrow

    @jk: McConnell is going to have to deal with John McCain and Lindsey Graham somehow then. They’re both speaking out about this issue. I’m sure there are ways, but it’s definitely McCain’s last term in the Senate and he’s probably thinking legacy. Saving America from the Russians might be looking pretty good to him. Being the hero in preventing a Russian coup or uncovering treasonous activities might also be on his mind.

  90. 90.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    is this thread kinda open now? Of course it is
    A

    lexandra Jaffe @ ajjaffe
    Whoa—chant of “lock her up!” from the crowd, Trump replies: “That plays great before the election – now we don’t care”

    his contempt for his own followers, who voted for him because me, Sam Bee and a few hundred internet commenters look down on them, never ceases to amuse me.

  91. 91.

    Yarrow

    @Aleta: Speaking of the Electoral College. There’s a lawsuit that’s getting a hearing on Monday.

    A lawsuit by two Democratic members of the Electoral College working to block Donald Trump’s election will head to federal court in Colorado on Monday.
    …
    The two electors, Polly Baca and Robert Nemanich, are suing to overturn a Colorado law that requires them to support the winner of their statewide popular vote — Hillary Clinton — during the general election last month.

    Baca and Nemanich are among a group of at least nine electors — nearly all Democrats — lobbying Republicans behind an alternative Republican candidate to Trump. They’re hopeful that overturning Colorado’s law will undermine similar laws in 28 other states, including several where a few Republican electors have expressed concerns about Trump.

  93. 93.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Baud: If I were gonna do a big special on Democratic politics in the midwest, Wisconsin specifically, I myself might call Tammy Baldwin and Russ Feingold (and I don’t like Russ Feingold). They’re also hyping the idea that this “reliably blue state” suddenly turned into Trump Country! I guess MSNBC has never heard of Scott Walker. Or Ron Johnson.

  99. 99.

    Botsplainer

    @Lizzy L:

    If Mattis is given a directive he disputes, yet refuses to resign (same as the various service chiefs) I wonder what happens then?

    Twitler: “I want you to drop a nuclear weapon on Raqqa.”

    Mattis: “No sir, I will not relay that order. I believe it reckless and illegal, and have advised STRATCOM and the ither service chiefs of my conclusion.”

    Twitler: “You can hand me your resignation or be fired.”

    Mattis: “No sir.”

  105. 105.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Omnes Omnibus: all the more reason, I think, to hear from locals instead of an out-of-state, fading celebrity from a much smaller, less culturally and economically diverse state. And there are quite a few states that fit your description of your home state. I won’t pretend I don’t despise Sanders, but it seems to me Hayes, whom I do like and consider very smart, if a bit the eternal grad student, is fumbling this one as a post-election forum.

  109. 109.

    Poopyman

    @Yarrow:

    Baca and Nemanich are among a group of at least nine electors — nearly all Democrats — lobbying Republicans behind an alternative Republican candidate to Trump.

    A coup of a different flavor, albeit one that the Founding Dads were OK with.

  110. 110.

    divF

    I am ashamed to say that it took me nearly 100 comments to get the title of this thread.

    Now Georgia’s always on my mind.

  111. 111.

    germy

    Flew in from Miami Beach BOAC
    Didn’t get to bed last night
    On the way the paper bag was on my knee
    Man, I had a dreadful flight
    I’m back in the USSR
    You don’t know how lucky you are, boy
    Back in the USSR

  113. 113.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: I think that Baldwin and Feingold are good choices. I also think that Mandy Wright, a youngish former Assembly Rep from Wausau (central Wisconsin) who ticks most of the boxes “we” think are good. Hell, her daughter is the placekicker for East’s football team, who be another good choice – someone who could talk about the on the ground, door to door campaign.

  115. 115.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Franklin Foer ‏@ FranklinFoer 16m16 minutes ago
    I hope the @ nytimes investigates why Comey misled them about the Kremlin’s role in the campaign.

    Ms Spayd? Ms Liz Spayd, please pick up the nearest white courtesy phone. Tucker Carlson might be able to help you find one.

  116. 116.

    Yarrow

    @Baud: They’re calling themselves the Hamilton Electors.

    The so-called Hamilton Electors — a group of electors who are determined to deny Trump the 270 electoral votes he needs to officially become president — now have the support of Harvard law professor Lawrence Lessig, who has created an “Electors Trust” that provides free counsel to electors, according to a report on Tuesday from The Week.

    Using the law firm Durie Tangri, the Electors Trust says it will provide free counsel to Republican electors who are thinking of defecting from Trump, allowing them anonymity to avoid being intimidated away from that notion. Because 37 Republican electors will need to defect for Trump to be denied the presidency, this anonymity may be essential in allowing the process to be successful.

    There’s that one Republican elector who has said he won’t vote for Trump. If this Russian interference stuff gains steam, who knows what will happen.

  120. 120.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @raven: We will soon be attacked by a ravening pack of former band geeks. But then, you are probably going to bed soon.

  121. 121.

    Jeffro

    @Yarrow: If they fail to rally a majority of electors behind a replacement R, the whole thing will go to the House, who will vote for their rubber stamp Trump. The Hamilton Electors need to convince these folks that they should join Hillz’ 232 (or so?) electors and make her president. She could help this whole process along by a) letting Obama give a speech about what the CIA has found re: Russian involvement in getting Trump elected and then b) throwing them some concessions that might help most of the country come together.

  124. 124.

    Oldgold

    For me, this is another example, and an extraordinarily important one, where Obama should have taken off his Hushpuppies, put on steel toe work boots and kicked the GOP’s ass.

    This was just too important, in terms of the nature of the wrong and the consequences, not to have raised holy hell when they refused his bipartisan approach.

  127. 127.

    weaselone

    @Poopyman:

    Our founding father’s were idiots. If they hadn’t put the fracking electoral system in place out of some misguided attempt to protect us ignorant peons from themselves, the country wouldn’t have elected the fast food fascist.

  128. 128.

    Jeffro

    Actual John Weaver (Kasich strategist) Tweet just now:

    Russia committed a Pearl Harbor cyber attack on USA designed to put their favored person in the WH. We did nothing. Read that out loud.

  129. 129.

    Yarrow

    Union guy and American hero Chuck Jones is now on Twitter.

    I'm new here but wanted to let Donald Trump know I'm not scared of him.— Chuck Jones USW 1999 (@ChuckJonesUSW19) December 9, 2016

    From his bio: “I may not know much about social media, but I damn sure know a liar when I see one.”
    Yeah! Go Chuck!

  130. 130.

    divF

    @weaselone: The electoral college was put in place to allow slave states a mechanism for having their 3/5’s of the slave population count towards the Presidential elections.

    Slavery is the United States’ original sin.

  133. 133.

    sigaba

    @JPL:

    Comey might make J. Edgar a saint.

    My first thought is of Paul Sorvino in The Rocketeer: “I may be a no good, low down dirty rotten gangster, but I’m 100% American.” (Proceeds to order his men to tommy-gun Nazi invaders. Such an awesome scene.)

  134. 134.

    Yarrow

    @Jeffro: I believe Kasich is the one being discussed as an alternative for the defecting electors to vote for. Reading some tea leaves….

    And yes, it would go to the House if there weren’t enough electoral votes for Trump. I don’t know what would happen then. Would the House rubber stamp him if a bunch of stuff about Russia came out? Dunno. I agree Hillary would be a good way to go if she pledged to be bipartisan and perhaps one term, but I don’t see them voting for her.

    There’s a lot happening. Who knows how it will turn out.

  137. 137.

    D58826

    @Jeffro: i was going to say the same thing. Why do the electors have to find an acceptable R alternative? Hillary won the popular vote by almost 3 million votes. Between Hillary, Stein and Johnson 54% of thew voting public said no to what the GOP was trying to sell.

    Any Gooper will have the same agenda as der Fuhrer and the same reactionary GOOPER Congress,

  138. 138.

    Yarrow

    @Major Major Major Major: I have no idea. I’m not a Constitutional scholar or anything. Just know the basics. I asked above if there was clear evidence of foreign interference in our election if it would/could be done over? Austria just did that, or so I understand.

    Russia influencing US election to put Trump in power is bigger than Watergate.— David Corn (@DavidCornDC) December 10, 2016

    Yep.

  139. 139.

    D58826

    @Major Major Major Major: Basically – yes. IIRC in one of the very early elections it took multiple ballots. Of course no one much cared what the 13 ex-colonies did at that point. A protected House battle would be just one of many bad options.

  140. 140.

    MomSense

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    Yes, I think deep down we all knew something cataclysmic had happened beyond just losing the election. Right away Russia admitted they were talking to team Trump the whole time.

    Coup? Feels like one.

    On the sleep thing I’ve had two semi restful nights listening to Delta Waves with headphones on. It’s a free app or you can listen on YouTube. It sounded far fetched when I read about it but I was desperate. It’s helping.

  142. 142.

    sigaba

    @Yarrow: The House process doesn’t require an absolute majority, only choice by ballot, with each state delegation receiving one vote, so a plurality candidate can carry, as long as he or she were among the top five electoral vote winners.

  145. 145.

    Jeffro

    @D58826:

    IIRC in one of the very early elections it took multiple ballots.

    One featured in a certain popular musical, in fact…

  146. 146.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Malcolm Nance, paraphrase: do Republicans, and Donald Trump with his unsecured cell phones, really think the Russians have nothing on them?

    (I don’t)

  147. 147.

    sigaba

    @Jeffro: In the House election process, which only comes into play if the EC fails to deliver a majority winner, each House state delegation receives one vote. The House does not vote member-for-member when they vote for President. There are also tighter quorum requirements.

  148. 148.

    PhoenixRising

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    We will soon be attacked by a ravening pack of former band geeks

    Incoming!

    Stanford’s band has successfully halted more NCAA DI scoring attempts than Northwestern’s D line. Also moves more athletically. Too bad they can’t stop abusing alcohol enough to keep the program running.

  153. 153.

    InternetDragons

    @Yarrow: I just saw that he is on Twitter now. This should be a front-page article. I sent him a supportive message and am following him.

    Seeing his tweet was a bright spot. The main topic of this thread has me feeling shocked (again) and sick. This is all going so badly, so quickly.

  155. 155.

    Jeffro

    @Yarrow:

    I agree Hillary would be a good way to go if she pledged to be bipartisan and perhaps one term, but I don’t see them voting for her.

    We only need 36-37 of them to join with Hillz’ own electors, and if she pledges to put Republicans X, Y, and Z into her cabinet, and/or only serve one term, she might get there. Plus Trump has already signaled he’s going after Medicare, Medicaid, Obamacare, and Social Security (or rather, that he’s appointing people who’ll do that + will sign whatever Paul Ryan puts in front of him).

    I think it’s do-able. There are other, weirder scenarios (some of which I’ve promoted in recent weeks) but the important thing is that we push on this, hard, now. Dec 19th is our last chance to stop the Trump/Putin administration before it starts. After that, he’ll actually be the president, and everything gets 10x harder…10x harder to make the GOP impeach its Russian-agent rubber stamp…10x harder just to get back to where Obama left off in so many areas…

  158. 158.

    divF

    @Major Major Major Major: Touchy, aren’t we?

    Actually, I *really* don’t have a dog in this fight. I was a sophomore at Berkeley before I realized that football was a thing there, and that only because of the crowd of people heading for a game walking under my apartment window (I started in Fall 1969, so there were other things going on at the time).

  159. 159.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Steve Benen ‏@ stevebenen 2h2 hours ago
    Don’t just read the headline and lede on this one. Keep going, paying particular attention to the White House/Gang of 12 meeting

  160. 160.

    PhoenixRising

    @Jeffro:

    We only need 36-37 of them

    Well, I think you can forget turning Trump’s middle kid or Pam Bondi, so getting to 37 may be a bit of a lift.

    However, I agree with you & @major (4) that the time is now to start taking this last ditch seriously. As in, Now that we’ve seen what’s over the cliff, ending up in the last ditch looks acceptable.

  162. 162.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Universally admired…. in some quarters

    Chad Pergram ‏@ ChadPergram 11m11 minutes ago
    McCain on intel community saying Russians tried to influence elex: The CIA has not always been right to say the least

    I’m sure he’s talking about 2002-03

    the old coot is 80 and just won a six year term, his Smithers isn’t even halfway through his term. I guess this is just pure spite.

  164. 164.

    Yarrow

    @Major Major Major Major: The timing of the Russian interference investigation and the disclosure that they knew about this before the election might be enough to turn more electors. Not much time, though.

    Alternatively, since President Obama wants the investigation done before he leaves office, it could be that they turn up a whole bunch of stuff, leak a lot of the good stuff out, and damage Trump and his cabinet and advisers before inauguration day.

    I know once he’s president (shudder) it’s much harder to do anything about it, especially without any leverage in Congress. But like I said above there could be some Republican Senators who want their legacy to be American Hero and will stand up to McConnell. Looking at you, John McCain.

  166. 166.

    Jeffro

    @Major Major Major Major:

    I thought the electoral college stuff was silly but harmless until… about now-ish. Thinking it might be time to really make the case now.

    Yes – overdue but not too late! We’ve seen just since the election how bad Trump (well, Bannon, really) intends to be. This isn’t just about slowing down the EPA…it’s about destroying our institutions and safety nets as fast as possible.

    Call your Senators and write your local paper. Tweet about it, put it on your Facebook page. We need some Electors who will put their country ahead of Putin’s interests and Donald’s bank account and a job for Mitch McConnell’s wife.

  168. 168.

    Jeffro

    @PhoenixRising:

    Now that we’ve seen what’s over the cliff, ending up in the last ditch looks acceptable.

    Yup – no reason not to go for broke on this one, we’ve seen what’s in store for America if and when Putin’s Puppet is sworn in, even for a day.

  171. 171.

    Ohio Mom

    @Yarrow: Early this year, I spent a fair amount of time fretting about Kasich doing well in the primaries. He’s been a rotten governor but of course he has that “reasonable” thing going for him. I thought he was Hillary’s biggest threat.

    But right now, “President Kasich” sounds okay. He’d be awful but he wouldn’t be stuffing his pockets the whole time.

  172. 172.

    Sandra L Hanlon

    @Politically Lost: I will be there. Taking a bus from St. Louis. Poorer than a church mouse, but I am saving my pennies. We have charter bus and 4 hotel rooms. Sleeping on the floor, I am sure. Hell, I thought I was going to take a car & sleep in it, so I am making out fine. If I don’t get arrested. Or worse. And I don’t care – I have found I really do love this country.

  173. 173.

    Major Major Major Major

    I can just SEE McConnell at that meeting frowning with those fucking jowls of his and squeezing words out through his pursed little lip flaps to the effect that he would consider doing anything to benefit the country partisan politics.

  176. 176.

    Jeffro

    @Ohio Mom:

    Early this year, I spent a fair amount of time fretting about Kasich doing well in the primaries. He’s been a rotten governor but of course he has that “reasonable” thing going for him. I thought he was Hillary’s biggest threat.

    But right now, “President Kasich” sounds okay. He’d be awful but he wouldn’t be stuffing his pockets the whole time.

    All kinds of ways to bring him on board without making him president, and I don’t think a majority of the EC could coalesce around him (especially not in this short of a time frame). But Hillz can agree to bring him on as a cabinet secretary…heck, Kaine could take one for the team, resign immediately after the inauguration, let Hillz make Kasich VP. Crazy I know but whatever it takes to get 37 more Electors to vote for their country and not Putin’s Puppet.

  181. 181.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Yarrow: What Lessig is actually trying to do is have electors allocated based on how each state is apportioned, which only Nebraska and Maine do now, rather than majority winner takes all. What this would actually do, given how the country is gerrymandered, is make it impossible for a Democrat to ever win the Presidency again.

    Lessig is a menace. From his boutique attempt to run for President to this. He is a public policy nightmare.

  184. 184.

    Adam L Silverman

    @D58826: The House will not certify the electors if they select Secretary Clinton rather than the President-elect. Regardless of what the Constitution says and Hamilton said in Federalist 68, the House has to certify the electors votes. And they can choose not to.

  185. 185.

    Jeffro

    Btw, not sure if anyone has already posted this so apologies if I’m second here, but…here’s the (unsigned) Trump campaign response to the CIA’s report that Putin/KGB/Russia were working hard to get Trump elected:

    These are the same people that said Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. The election ended a long time ago in one of the biggest Electoral College victories in history. It’s now time to move on and “Make America Great Again”

    I count 3-5 lies in that statement: YMMV

  187. 187.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Lessig is a menace. From his boutique attempt to run for President to this. He is a public policy nightmare.

    Agree completely. He is a leftist who would let people burn to get a leftist government. I won’t My real political positions are far left of those I politically support. But I want to win and move toward my goals. So I compromise.

  188. 188.

    Yarrow

    Trump’s transition has put out a statement on this issue. It says in part, “These are the same people who said Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction.”

    Don’t think he’s making friends in the CIA.

  189. 189.

    Jeffro

    @Adam L Silverman: True…but House members can also be reminded (publicly, via phone and email, outside their offices) that a) they have a duty to not elect a Russian puppet and b) that they’re up for election in 2 years.

    Time is short and it’s tough to bring enough shame-power to bear, first on the R electors and then the GOP House members, but we don’t need all of them to put country first…just enough…

  190. 190.

    StringOnAStick

    I hope Kay is here to read this. I went to the Christmas party for our County Democratic party (Jefferson, CO) and met our Democratic Rep Ed Permutter. I used it as an opportunity to push for what Kay hass said; instead of $500k/year consultants, how about a bunch of $35k/year local community organizers to go live in these rust belt communities with disenfranchised voters to get them registered, get to know them, and get them fired up to vote. He said it was a great idea and that we sure need to so something different than what we just did. Whether that means the idea gets transmitted to anyone who can do something with it is another matter, but we all need to be harping on this to as many people as we can.

    He also said that while Rep. Ellison is smart, a great speaker and would be wonderful as a Finance chair, he’s not the guy to head the DNC if we want to win again. He didn’t say why, but we all know why; he agreed that it shouldn’t matter, but it does and for right now we need to right this ship. We here all know that Rep. Ellison being Muslim shouldn’t matter, but it does, at least it does right now. Why hand hate radio/TV an easy stick to beat us with that will easily resonate with low info voters?

  191. 191.

    Jeffro

    @Yarrow:

    Trump’s transition has put out a statement on this issue. It says in part, “These are the same people who said Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction.”

    Don’t think he’s making friends in the CIA.

    There’s a very real chance that no matter who “wins” here once the EC votes, that either the CIA dedicates itself to kneecapping Trump & Co (just by releasing/leaking all the things it finds out) or the FBI goes nuts trying to kneecap President-Draw-To-An-Inside-Straight Clinton for four years. Not pretty. Still better than letting the Rs and their arsonist agenda have free reign.

  192. 192.

    Yarrow

    @Adam L Silverman: Yes, it would be a mess. I’m not a fan of his. Just observed he’s involved.

    I feel like there are a lot of moving parts and a lot of people with interests. It’s hard to know what’s happening.

  193. 193.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Jeffro: The election ended a long time ago in one of the biggest Electoral College victories in history.

    The math, it has been done.

    Anthony Lurcher ‏@ awzurcher 1h1 hour ago
    Trump won 56% of the total Electoral College vote (306 out of 538), which ranks his margin 46th out of 58 presidential contests

  195. 195.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Major Major Major Major: The House certifies the electors. Should the electors send a vote across that the House majority refuses to certify, they will refuse to certify it. After that it is unclear what happens.

  196. 196.

    Major Major Major Major

    @Jeffro: I saw somebody on the internet today arguing that Trump won the popular vote by more than a million if you just don’t count California.

    Which is about seventeen kinds of prejudiced but man, that’s a doozy.

    @Adam L Silverman: Yes, and then Kennedy would decide what happened next and what it meant.

  200. 200.

    Yarrow

    @Jeffro: Yeah, I think I mentioned the same idea above. He could be officially elected by the electors and between then and inauguration day the drip, drip of the investigation damages him before he’s sworn in. Then after he is, they keep going – both on him and his associates and cabinet members. It could get ugly. But it might be best case scenario if we’re stuck with him.

    If the CIA can take down McConnell and Ryan at the same time it would be amazing.

  201. 201.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Jeffro: I don’t think they will care. They are gerrymandered into safe seats where the only challenges for the majority come from the right. All they care about is covering their right flanks. They have no reason to moderate and are largely immune to pressure to do so. And the Democrats are not effective at messaging. And the media will roll over and tut tut.

  203. 203.

    Thoroughly Pizzled

    Suppose we somehow, against all odds, manage to convince the Electoral College to vote for Hillary while McConnell and Comey are indicted for treason. What do we do about Russia? This behavior must not go unpunished, but I don’t want any blood shed. Could we impose more sanctions or make Putin even more of a pariah?

  208. 208.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Yarrow: What is going to happen is the electors will select the President-elect. To be perfectly honest if they were to not do so and enough defected and voted for Governor Kasich to prevent the President-elect from getting 270 electoral votes, then the whole thing gets decided by the House. And to be honest, that opens a can of worms as to whether the House majority then selects the President-elect or picks someone else (my guess on the someone else would be Ryan). In either of these scenarios there would be violence.

    Should enough flip and select Secretary Clinton, things would be even worse. There would be violence, but the House would immediately go to work on impeaching her and Kaine at the same time. And while the GOP Senate won’t get 60 votes for conviction, none of her nominations would get confirmed because the GOP would hope they could so pressure and embarrass and harass her into stepping down and Kaine as well, so that the Speaker would become President. So here too Ryan.

    The last thing we want right now, as bad as things are going to be for a while, is for what’s left of our institutions to complete consume themselves. You want to see widespread violence directed at ethnic and religious minorities and immigrants and LGBTQ folks? Just have the electors do anything other than choose the President-elect.

  211. 211.

    Elie

    @Thoroughly Pizzled:

    We would have to purge all the Russian sympathizers here first…. might need to leave them alone — too many and imbedded with the white nationalists. Russia would be further reviled by the world community and it would cost them even more. We should openly support wave after wave of opponents to Putin and sooner or later one will take.

  214. 214.

    Yarrow

    Let’s also remember that Trump urgedRussia to hack Hilary’s emails:

    “I will tell you this, Russia: If you’re listening, I hope you’re able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing,” the Republican nominee said at a news conference in Florida.

    This was July 27, 2016. It was also his last press conference.

  215. 215.

    Jeffro

    @Major Major Major Major:

    I saw somebody on the internet today arguing that Trump won the popular vote by more than a million if you just don’t count California. Which is about seventeen kinds of prejudiced but man, that’s a doozy.

    Agreed and so easy to refute, right?: if we’re not going to count California…ok if we don’t count Texas? Florida? Should we just go with Cheney’s home district in Wyoming? LOL

  217. 217.

    Woodrowfan

    The CIA is fairly conservative, but they really don;t like Russia agents. Or the FBI for that matter.

  218. 218.

    Jeffro

    @Yarrow:

    Yeah, I think I mentioned the same idea above. He could be officially elected by the electors and between then and inauguration day the drip, drip of the investigation damages him before he’s sworn in. Then after he is, they keep going – both on him and his associates and cabinet members. It could get ugly. But it might be best case scenario if we’re stuck with him.

    I agree…and I think that at their last bit of rationalization, this is what Ryan and the Kochs are thinking: if it gets bad enough, AFTER the inauguration, we’ll impeach Trump or get him to resign, and then we’ll still have rubber-stamp Pence. But…jesus…how bad would it have to be for Ryan to impeach Trump, after everything we’ve seen him excuse so far?!?!? It boggles the mind.

  219. 219.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Yarrow: In that the CIA is going to do something? Congress? DOJ?

    The CIA is not going to do anything. They have worked very hard post Church Commission, regardless how limited those reforms were in practice rather than in how they were publicized, to not become the tools for partisan domestic politics ever again. If they involve themselves, the institution is done – no Administration would ever be able to trust them again. So coup du Intel Community is out.

    Congress? We already know that the current majority had a chance and refused because they thought they could get all their wildest dreams to come true. They will do nothing.

    The DOJ? AG Lynch has exactly 40 days.

    The American people? The 27% of the eligible voters that voted for the President-elect think the stock market is down, unemployment is up, and crime is up. They will do nothing. That leaves the 29% that voted for Secretary Clinton, which will be interpreted and then pooh poohed as partisan sour grapes. The remaining 44% that didn’t vote aren’t going to do anything either.

  220. 220.

    albertZ

    Ignoring my very real disgust for Trump – my concern here is that Putin and Russian intelligence could care less about who actually won. And that it was never there intention to be clandestine about their intentions. The only thing worse then dying from the poison in the goblet, is knowingly drinking it because you think yourself the more clever fool.

  221. 221.

    Yarrow

    @Adam L Silverman: I agree there aren’t good scenarios. I don’t think Trump being inaugurated as president means there won’t be violence against ethnic and religious minorities, immigrants and LGBTQ people, though.

  222. 222.

    Jeffro

    @Adam L Silverman:

    I don’t think they will care. They are gerrymandered into safe seats where the only challenges for the majority come from the right. All they care about is covering their right flanks. They have no reason to moderate and are largely immune to pressure to do so. And the Democrats are not effective at messaging. And the media will roll over and tut tut.

    Again, time is short…but even Red-State voters don’t like the idea of Russia being behind Trump’s campaign. A full 1/3 of them don’t even know there’s allegations out there of any kind. (Side note: was shocked to find out this week that my dad and brother, over-newsed RWingers to the core, hadn’t heard of or seen the Putin/Flynn/Stein RT dinner last year). They just don’t know this stuff.

  223. 223.

    ruemara

    @Major Major Major Major: I do recall Timmy mocking me maybe 2 years ago on this blog when I said we weren’t friends with Russia and preserving our security was important. As I recall, he said I was naive.

    yep. because the world is one big kumbaya factory if we’d just stop having governments.

  228. 228.

    celticdragonchick

    @Adam L Silverman:

    And that right there tells you how fragile rule of law has become. We are one incident away from COIN warfare if what you say is accurate…and I have no reason to suspect it isn’t

    It also means we are in the last few years of America as a great nation.

  229. 229.

    frosty

    @schrodinger’s cat:

    Translation from military speak?

    I got it, but only because my son was in the Army Natl Guard artillery in a M777 155mm howitzer battery. I blame Mythbusters (let’s blow some stuff up!)

  231. 231.

    Jeffro

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Should enough flip and select Secretary Clinton, things would be even worse. There would be violence, but the House would immediately go to work on impeaching her and Kaine at the same time. And while the GOP Senate won’t get 60 votes for conviction, none of her nominations would get confirmed because the GOP would hope they could so pressure and embarrass and harass her into stepping down and Kaine as well, so that the Speaker would become President. So here too Ryan.

    The last thing we want right now, as bad as things are going to be for a while, is for what’s left of our institutions to complete consume themselves. You want to see widespread violence directed at ethnic and religious minorities and immigrants and LGBTQ folks? Just have the electors do anything other than choose the President-elect.

    Impeaching her…for what? How’d impeachment work out for the GOP last time?

    Also Hillz is stalwart enough to hang in there without anyone being confirmed while more and more evidence comes out about Russia’s involvement in the election. She’d never resign, nor would Kaine, if it meant turning the government over to Kaine.

    Trump’s supporters are welcome to riot all they want: if things keep going this way, they’re going to anyway. Better to fight them at the moat than inside the gate, without the “legitimacy” of him having been inaugurated.

    If they’re really going to put party before country, even in the face of evidence that Putin helped install Trump, then let’s just have it out before – under a veil of official action – they destroy all of our institutions and STILL persecute folks in the EPA, make Trump NDAs standard operating procedure across the government, and so on.

  232. 232.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Omnes Omnibus: I hear you and I understand. Unless you’re prepared for and willing to go through outright rebellion, with different groups rebelling in different places, which will put a lot of people already at risk at even greater risk, then simply holding fast and weathering what’s coming is the best way to go.

    I took the same oath you did. I’m furious. Furious that an apparent majority within one of the only two political parties we allow ourselves (for all intents and purposes) many of whom have taken that same oath have decided that domestic political power, its pursuit, and its unfettered use is more important than keeping to that oath. Also furious at how badly the media handled this. At the glibness. If I could figure this out, just from open source reporting, and start posting about it back in March or April, someone with a far bigger platform should have been able to do so and make it stick.

  234. 234.

    Elie

    @Adam L Silverman:

    But what do you do if you are the President and you have in hand irrefutable proof at some point that not only did the Russians influence or worse for Trump, but that Trump knew about it and facilitated it? We don’t have his taxes or other financial statements to clarify his debts and key business or government relationships, but I am sure it is known because I am sure that the FBI and CIA most certainly have this information. Do we elect him and then charge him immediately? He IS the Muncharian candidate in real life if he is allowed to take office with no impact on the destruction that he is planning to do. Its cancer…. Bad cancer that will have to be cut out and irradiated and its gonna hurt whenever we do it. Obama was sworn to protect the constitution… I can’t think of any more important role he can play at this point than getting to the bottom of a good part of this before he leaves office.

  236. 236.

    Jeffro

    @Adam L Silverman:

    The CIA is not going to do anything. They have worked very hard post Church Commission, regardless how limited those reforms were in practice rather than in how they were publicized, to not become the tools for partisan domestic politics ever again. If they involve themselves, the institution is done – no Administration would ever be able to trust them again. So coup du Intel Community is out.

    I respect the opinion but that’s an odd choice of framing. Putting the facts out there about Russia’s very real involvement with Trump is not ‘becoming a tool for partisan politics’ – it’s just. putting. the facts out there. They are not involving themselves anywhere close to the degree that the FBI (or heck even the GOP Senate) has. It’s not a coup – it’s preventing one.

  237. 237.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Yarrow: I’m not arguing that we aren’t going to see that violence if the President-elect is sworn in according to the usual process. I am arguing that should anything, even if its Constitutional, be done to prevent it, then the violence will be worse and more widespread.

  239. 239.

    Elie

    @MomSense:

    To me is transcends Constitutional — this is existential — our deepest existence is at risk from both internal and external sources. We have never been this at risk in modern times (I don’t think) …

  241. 241.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @celticdragonchick: Calm down. Nevermind, Panic away. I am officially tired of talking people off the ledge. Have courage and be ready to fight or don’t. I know what I will try to do. Do what you will.

  242. 242.

    Steeplejack (tablet)

    @Jeffro:

    Trump might have to up the illegal votes to 4 million to cover the 3 million that it increasingly looks like Clinton won by.

  243. 243.

    celticdragonchick

    @Jeffro:

    Impeaching her…for what?

    Does it matter? Impeachment is a political process…not a criminal process, and the GOP today is not the GOP from 25 years ago. The process would cripple her for years. Every fucking day the NYT would blare the “Questions Raised!” headlines.

  244. 244.

    Jeffro

    @MomSense: Thank you, that’s exactly right. We are way, way through the looking glass here. Look at what McConnell was willing to sweep under the rug…look at Corker’s blasé attitude towards a foreign power hacking our election…Rep Rohrbacher’s outright denial of Russian ill intentions…and all of this is to say nothing about our own Speaker. Of. The House.

    It’s nuts and we’re still arguing about playing by the rules. Heck, I’m even advocating playing by the rules, this one last time: push on the EC hard, and if it goes to the House, push on them as well. And then fight like heck to get the truth out about Trump being in hock and in thrall to the Russians, and push on the GOP to actually do something. By 2018, and definitely by 2020, this will all be out there and because we will have pushed hard now, they will have to OWN IT.

  246. 246.

    Elie

    @Adam L Silverman:

    We may not be able to avoid it. We can’t let this guy take office if it is proven that he is a criminal traitor. We might as well be dead if that happens and is known…

  247. 247.

    You should know better...

    @Adam L Silverman:

    someone with a far bigger platform should have been able to do so and make it stick.

    And in order to do that, they would have had to WANTED it to stick…

  248. 248.

    Jeffro

    @celticdragonchick: I’ll take Hillz fighting them for four years and nothing happening, than four years of Carson dismantling HUD, Price dismantling Obamacare, DeVos dismantling Dept of Ed, Pruitt dismantling EPA (while subjecting its employees to a witch hunt, no less), and so on. She’d take that, too.

  249. 249.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    I didn’t see it, but I am not surprised it happened

    Charles Johnson ‏@ Green_Footballs 1h1 hour ago
    Imagine, if you will, my surprise to see Glenn Greenwald spring to the defense of Wikileaks and Russia.

  250. 250.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Omnes Omnibus: As I’ve written in a couple of posts, its up to the rest of us. We are now the small “c” conservatives. Our job, and that includes the self declared never Trump Conservatives (Rick Wilson, Tom Nichols, Evan McMullin, Jennifer Rubin, David Frum, etc), is to hold as hard as we can, to preserve as much as we can, to protect as much as we can, and protect each other as much as we can.

    There has never been a time period in the US, let alone anywhere else, where a burst of progress hasn’t been met with a concerted, coordinated, vigorous revanchist push back and attempt at restoration of the previous, or imagined and idealized previous, status quo. It happened after the founding. It happened after the 2nd founding when the Constitution was created. It happened again in the 1830s with Andrew Jackson. It happened again in the 1840s, but was staved off by compromise and some capitulation to the slave power. It happened again in the late 1850s and we got the Great Rebellion. It happened again in the 1870s to push back an incomplete reconstruction and institute Jim Crow and slavery by another name. It happened in the early 20th Century to push back on the progressive era’s reforms to reign in the Gilded Age. It happened again after the New Deal had secured prosperity coming out of WW II with the beginning of the anti-New Dealers (who’s direct descendants include Paul Ryan), McCarthyism, and the Birchers and the rise of the 3rd Klan period. It happened again in the early 70s with the Nixonian response to the Civil Rights Era of the 60s. And was briefly interrupted by the Carter Administration, where it went to work remaking political, social, religious, and economic institutions (the South Baptist Convention, the NRA, etc) and then reinstituted by the Reagan Administration. Even the centrist reforms of the Clinton Administration were pushed back by the Bush 43 Administration.

    So thinking that it somehow wouldn’t happen because President Obama was President Obama would be delusional. Hell, there wasn’t even an attempt to wait for his first day in office to end before it started.

  251. 251.

    Elie

    @celticdragonchick:

    Fuck it. If we are that far through the looking glass, why does Obama have to give up the office to hand it to a criminal traitor? Civil war? Yep. Could we avoid it by somehow just capitulating? If this guy gets in there with many knowing he is a traitor, he and they will spend their entire time searching them out and destroying them. There is no easy out for this. Once the investigation is embarked upon, we are in a state of commitment that the people who initiated it will be unable to get out of.

  252. 252.

    celticdragonchick

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Question for you, Adam:

    I made the comparison earlier this evening at LGF that we (progressives) are in the same strategic position that Athens was in during the closing phase of the Peloponnesian War. We had to win every battle…EVERY BATTLE…or the war was lost. I think we only just realized that as the magnitude of what has happened sinks in and we see the potential for decades of progressive work and causes being destroyed (The end of the 2nd Reconstruction as some are now calling this)

    Valid, or am I blowing smoke here?

  253. 253.

    Yarrow

    @Elie: Would it be possible for President Obama to declare some sort of constitutional crisis/state of emergency and delay inauguration? That would no doubt be a mess.

    Along those lines, if Trump is inaugurated and isn’t destroyed by something like these Russian ties then I fully expect him to declare a state of emergency and delay/cancel the election. If not in 2018 then definitely in 2020. I think our faith in our institutions is admirable but with a corrupt individual in charge who has no interest in anything except enriching himself and his family and accruing as much power as possible…all bets are off. Of course there would be some sort of terrible event – a bombing, perhaps (Reichstag fire) – to justify the state of emergency. But do we have the institutional strength to stop such a thing?

  255. 255.

    Adam L Silverman

    @celticdragonchick: There has been a 40 plus year assault on our civic institutions – governmental and non-governmental – by Movement Conservatism, which is really not conservative at all. There are three institutions within the US that score well in public surveying: religious institutions, the military, and law enforcement/emergency responders. This is what you see in authoritarian states. As long as someone could keep the economy going, or credibly get it going after a crash, and could maintain enough control at the top, then things could lurch along. What we’re seeing is that without that someone to reign in the worst excesses, that the cracks and fissures and damage is far, far worse than anyone realized.

  258. 258.

    Elie

    @Yarrow:

    That’s my point. I am afraid that this will be our last time to have freedom of any kind if this guy gets in there. He will make sure of that. As to my thought that Obama might stay on — well yes.. it would probably be very very messy, to say the least. But if you were him and you end up with a bill of particulars that irrefutably links Trump to the Russians, do you just ride off to your retirement and shrug your shoulders?

  259. 259.

    celticdragonchick

    @Elie:

    Obama has never been that kind of leader. I do think that Robert Kaplan was right in The Coming Anarchy (written before 9/11) that there is no guarantee at all that democracy is the last word in human governance or that the United States will survive this century.

    We are an empire in terminal phase decline (IMHO) and things will most certainly get worse as leaders try to declare that we are still (insert jingoist claim here) and then do something bloody and awful to prove it.

    My bets are:

    Glorious bloodbath in Iran
    Use of one or more tactical nukes against ISIL targets in Syria

  260. 260.

    Jeffro

    @Adam L Silverman: Adam please see my note at #248 – I think we agree about 99% of this, especially in regards to progressives actually being the small-c conservatives for whatever duration is required. I’m just for taking a shot at this now, before Trump takes the Oath of Office and everything gets 10x harder. It might be ugly, it might spark some violence by right-wing reactionaries, but compared to what will happen the next 4-8 years anyway (whether we are talking about the shredding of the safety next OR the violence, or both) it’s worth it.

    Trump’s continued, amazing lies/temperament just since the election and Bannon’s cabinet picks convinced me of this, btw. They really are going to go for broke. They really will burn it all down.

  262. 262.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Cogitari Safari: I do not know. The Constitution does not speak to this. Nor does the Federalist or Anti-Federalist Papers. Largely, I think, because no one envisioned us being here.

  265. 265.

    Elie

    @Jeffro:

    They really are going to go for broke. They really will burn it all down.

    I totally agree. I am scared as hell but think as you do — its our last chance for this republic…

  266. 266.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Elie: My guess is the President will do everything he can in the time he has left. Time is the enemy now and the enemy always gets a vote.

  267. 267.

    Yarrow

    @Jeffro:

    They really will burn it all down.

    Both Trump and Bannon have said this is what they want to do. Believe them when they tell us who they are.

  269. 269.

    Another Scott

    @ArchTeryx: Throwing the election to the House would make the Teabaggers own it even more, and be yet another indication that Trump didn’t win in a “landslide” and that he actually is “dividing the country”.

    That would be about the only benefit, because I see no chance that the GOP would not vote for him. Party always a.l.w.a.y.s comes first with them.

    But I can’t see it going that far. I see no chance that he won’t win the EC vote at this point. The way to defeat him isn’t through some never-before-done-hail-Mary in the EC, it’s to fight the GOP on every single thing they do that attempts to destroy our traditions and norms and to do everything we can to take back the House and Senate in 2018. And fight them in the Courts. And press for Impeachment of him when he attempts to break the law, and all the rest.

    (The GOP has 8 seats up in 2018. Depending on what happens in Louisiana with Campbell, then the Democrats only need to grab either a net of 2 or 3 of them to get the majority back.)

    YMMV.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  270. 270.

    jk

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Your argument is well reasoned and persuasive, but I just find Trump too dumb, malevolent, and deranged to serve as leader of the free world. I think your prediction about violence if Trump is not chosen by the electors is probably correct, but I’m more concerned about all the damage this fucking lunatic can do to the nation and the planet in the next 4 years and so I’m hoping for a mass defection of electors away from Trump and towards Hillary.

  277. 277.

    Elie

    @celticdragonchick:

    I think you underestimate him. He knows what is at stake and has never stepped back from what is essential. Does he pick his battles? Yes. But he is no coward and he is not stupid. He would be seen in history as having handed off a free republic to a madman under control of a fascist state. He knows the score. Happy about it? No way. But he will do what needs to be done IMHO.

  278. 278.

    celticdragonchick

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I honestly don’t know. From my read of him, however, he has a fundamental regard of and for the proper use of power and how it is transferred, and he would be utterly against so gross a breach of tradition no matter how warranted it may seem to others.

    I sure as hell would not be the one to advise him and I think he has little choice but to go ahead as planned with this monstrous charade since he did not release the information earlier.

    That was a mistake…no matter what Mitch Seditionist McConnel threatened to say.

  279. 279.

    Elie

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Nope. I am not prepared right this minute. But I will get prepared.

    Are you willing to stay home and watch this evil and criminal traitor sworn in knowing that this may be the last time we ever see free elections? Are you so sure that you wouldn’t still have to fight anyway?

  281. 281.

    Yarrow

    @Elie: Oh, I bet he’d hate that. It would be like being in your senior year and then finding out you were one credit short to graduate. And instead of getting to go on that Hawaiian vacation you’d been promised you have to go to summer school with a bunch of mean, entitled losers who want to make you fail.

  284. 284.

    MomSense

    @Yarrow:

    I’ve been speculating that they also hacked the NYT (at least a certain family there) because of how atrocious they’ve been in this debacle. Wouldn’t I love for that to come out too. Yes, yes I would.

  286. 286.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @celticdragonchick: That was a mistake…no matter what Mitch Seditionist McConnel threatened to say.

    Maybe, maybe not. This was all political, so the only meaningful response was from the American voters, who get their information from people like Chuck Todd and Jake Tapper. And those are the moderately engaged and relatively non-ideological voters.

  287. 287.

    Elie

    @celticdragonchick:

    Ahhh — but he has had time to see what is coming down since that meeting — the obviousness of the will to destroy everything of our laws and decency and to weigh what the judgement of history might be on him to do that hand off.

    (I of course have no idea what he is thinking or what he indeed knows, but this is my speculation)

  290. 290.

    MomSense

    @Elie:

    It’s going to be a fight now or later. That I know for sure. Probably time to get ready to go dark on social media and get organized.

  292. 292.

    Elie

    @rikyrah:

    Denial.

    “please pass this chalice from my lips, Oh God”. Believe me, I aint thrilled but I see what I cannot not see… Its plain as day.

  293. 293.

    El Caganer

    As distasteful as the idea is, there may not be a large enough groundswell to make a difference. Trump’s supporters won’t have a problem with him getting “help” from Putin, and there’s no guarantee that the 40+ percent of eligible voters who stayed home will either know enough or care enough to resist what’s coming.

  296. 296.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Elie: I’m genuinely confused as to what you think Obama can do.

    as to what Obama should have done, maybe he should have spoken up sooner and more forcefully, it is not at all clear that anything he might have said would have swayed the election.

  298. 298.

    Another Scott

    @Adam L Silverman: The more I read of this thread, the more it seems like there’s something weird in the electrons that some posters are receiving…

    Maybe the Illuminati will save us!!1

    :-/

    Thanks for reminding us of how the system for choosing the President actually works.

    There’s no magic “if this then this then this then this then this and THEN Hillary will win!” incantation that will save us from Donnie taking the oath on January 20th. The CIA is not going to stop it. Obama is not going to stop it. Kasich isn’t going to stop it. The EC isn’t going to stop it.

    It’s done.

    What matters is how we fight him and the GOP going forward to prevent them from implementing their policies.

    Getting our hopes up that somehow, if only we hope hard enough, that Donnie can be prevented from taking the oath on January 20th is an unproductive distraction.

    (sigh)

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  299. 299.

    celticdragonchick

    @Elie:

    You need to rein in your horse real quick, kiddo.

    Progressive or left wing violence has a history in this country…and that history always ends real sharp and sudden with (machine)gunfire and dead idealists (and typically a lot of their relatives as well).

    You want to take steps to protect yourself? Have at it. Learn to use non lethal aerosols and make an informed decision on having a gun at home and what your risk factor is. Be aware of your surroundings.

    I own guns and there have been some real hot times here in NC recently where I kept a 30 round mag in my rifle in the bedroom.

    But coming onto a public forum and advocating an armed uprising is fucking insane.

    Stop it. Now.

  300. 300.

    MomSense

    @celticdragonchick:

    Over in twitter toadster and others of his ilk are already trying to blame Obama for this. Given the way they failed to cover the election, acting as stenographers for Chaffetz’ characterization of the Comey letter, and numerous other examples I have no confidence that anything the President might have said or done would have been portrayed as anything other than meddling and partisan political interference. The media we have is not capable of doing justice to these events. They just aren’t.

  302. 302.

    albertZ

    Here is my Holiday Wish before I go to sleep tonight.

    That some people in positions of power who are far more in than know than any of us have determined that it is for now far better to exhibit to the world that the US is still a stable democracy – that it is still important to show a peaceful transition of power than to drag all of this out into the open before January. So Donald will get his inauguration, will get sworn in, and receive his hand holding tour of the White House by Obama and can tweet all about it, etc. etc..

    And then once the ceremonies are all done – the pomp and circumstance taken care of – someone will know its time to burn this motherf*cking orange haired shitgibbon at the stake for treason.

  304. 304.

    Elie

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Heck, I don’t have a well thought out “plan” here. I’m just Elie from WA state. I would guess he would not step down and would reveal more of what is known? As to when he could have revealed what he knew, I am not sure revealing that before the election would have worked? He IS cautious. Maybe he was optimistic that HIlllary could pull it out? I don’t know. But now he KNOWS what is being rolled out plus whatever he has learned since then.

    Believe me, I pray that this is a bad dream and we will all wake up and its gonna be ok. I just am afraid that is not the case and that once we hand this thing over, we will never be able to assume we will get anything back of our country. Anyone who could look at whats been happening and think anything else is in amazing denial.

  306. 306.

    Elie

    @albertZ:
    What levers will we have to do that after the election? The remaining Democrats? Counting on the Republican “leadership” in the Congress? That’s the thing, man… there is no one who will be in a position to do that after. THAT is what sucks.

  308. 308.

    Elie

    @MomSense:

    There are and will be friends in the particularly print media and even some in tv. That should not dictate our action either having or not having all of their support. My guess is that there are many more folks aware of the situation than meet our eye or Obama would not be so openly kicking this can. Maybe that fear is why the Shitgibbon is loading up on all those retired generals in his cabinet appointments…

  309. 309.

    Another Scott

    @Jeffro: Once you start throwing the rules away, then there are no rules to protect you.

    Stop panicking.

    Trump and his minions aren’t all-powerful. The federal government is huge and is made up of people who swore an oath:

    “I, AB, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.” This section does not affect other oaths required by law.
    (Pub. L. 89–554, Sept. 6, 1966, 80 Stat. 424.)

    There is lethargy and checks built into the system. Donnie and his minions aren’t going to be able to burn it all down in January. The millions of people who swear an oath to protect the Constitution aren’t suddenly going to turn into Trump’s toadies.

    We can and must fight them, but we must preserve our rules and institutions in the process. They’re the ones who want to break the rules and norms, and loot everything our parents and grandparents built, remember?

    (sigh)

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  310. 310.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @jk: from his vote to move ahead with Clinton’s impeachment proceedings to his vote against Dodd-Frank, which forced Dems to chase Scott Brown’s vote, he has too often been a preening grandstander. And as a contributor to both of his losing Senate campaigns: an ineffective one.

  311. 311.

    Anne Laurie

    @MomSense:

    I’ve been speculating that they also hacked the NYT (at least a certain family there) because of how atrocious they’ve been in this debacle.

    Why spend the effort on what they could get for free? Look at the NYTimes’ history in the run-up to World War II — the owners knew what Hitler was doing to the Jews and other Untermen groups, but they refused to make a fuss on the editorial side because “it wouldn’t have been taken well” by the Wall Street/Main Street Heartlanders.

    The family that owns the NYTimes is like the Bourbons: They forget nothing, and they learn nothing.

  312. 312.

    Yarrow

    And here we go:

    Russia is deploying short-range ballistic missiles to its western European enclave, it emerged yesterday as President Putin threatened “counter-measures” against Nato expansion.

  313. 313.

    Elie

    @Another Scott:

    I totally get that and know that what you say is true. I am just not as confident as you that enough of the backbone and guts of our system will still be there with enough power and direction to extirpate this evil thing. I wish I could believe it but I have just seen nothing but the failure of those institutions allowing this thing to get where he is… so excuse me if I can’t have that confidence…. and I was a government bureaucrat at one point…

  317. 317.

    Yarrow

    @Anne Laurie: More NYT fun stuff.
    Here’s the NYT article from October 31: “Investigating Donald Trump, F.B.I. Sees No Clear Link to Russia.”

    Tweet from Harry Reid’s Deputy Chief of Staff today:

    I'll say it: NYT interviewed Reid for this story. He said things contrary to the story. NYT discarded the interview. https://t.co/p39yXdu9Qq— Adam Jentleson (@AJentleson) December 10, 2016

    Uh huh.

  319. 319.

    celticdragonchick

    @Another Scott:

    It bears mentioning that the sun came up after the Rape of Nanjing, the Glencoe Massacre, the firebombing of Dresden and rather a lot of other horrible things. Whether or not this event will eventually find its way into that list has yet to be determined, but the fact that orbital mechanics are still in operation does not infer that things are going to somehow be “okay”.

  323. 323.

    Anne Laurie

    @MomSense: Am I wrong, in my interpretation?

    I’m sure they’re nice people, mostly, in general. But from all reports, a bone-deep constitutional refusal to call a spade anything more specific than “a tool some classify as an implement for gardening’ is perhaps the proudest part of the family’s legacy. After all, they have so much more to lose than most of us plebians shooting our mouths off on some blog…

  324. 324.

    Major Major Major Major

    @Yarrow: According to wikipedia,

    A constitutional crisis is a situation that a legal system’s constitution or other basic principles of operation appear unable to resolve; it often results in a breakdown in the orderly operation of government. Often, generally speaking, a constitutional crisis is a situation in which separate factions within a government disagree about the extent to which each of these factions hold sovereignty. Most commonly, constitutional crises involve some degree of conflict between different branches of government (e.g., executive, legislature, and/or judiciary), or between different levels of government in a federal system (e.g., state and federal governments).

    So no, not a constitutional crisis. At least not at this moment.

  325. 325.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Elie: Yes, but this has always been the pattern. Russian influence operations will only make it worse. But it was still always a possibility that it would happen.

  326. 326.

    Elie

    Well, enough for tonight. No solutions except great fear and anxiety. I have no idea what is ahead but I will try my best to be a good citizen. I will pray for our country and hope for the best. I will pray real real hard for those charged with protecting us and our constitution. May they be strong and true to the task

  328. 328.

    celticdragonchick

    @Another Scott:

    Platitudes about the sun coming up are not particularly helpful, if you want to put it quite so blunt.

    If we incur a bolide impact next year that wipes out half of one hemisphere in a K-T Boundary style event…the sun still comes up.

    You just aren’t alive to notice it.

    Using that tired cliche is almost as annoying as telling everybody that “The arc of history is long, but it bends to justice”.

    Hogwash. If it bends towards anything, it is poverty and death for the weak, power for the rapacious and ignorance of what happened to make it that way in the first place.

  329. 329.

    Another Scott

    @Elie: Donnie’s administration is going to be a disaster, of that I have no doubt.

    But breaking the rules and the norms to somehow save the system almost never works.

    Donnie is going to take the oath on January 20. That’s what will happen based on the results of the election under the system we have. The Republic and the Union will survive, and it will survive better if we are clear-headed about how we fight his and the Teabaggers’ policies.

    People only have so much time and energy. We should apply them appropriately in areas where they can be effective and not waste them on impossibilities or on counter-productive things that will hurt our causes.

    My $0.02.

    Have a good night, everyone.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  330. 330.

    celticdragonchick

    @Adam L Silverman:

    I think we are in something of uncharted waters here, however.

    Pushback is one thing. I believe we are seeing the beginning of an actual assault on rule of law.

  331. 331.

    Adam L Silverman

    @jk: Unless something unprecedented happens, Angela Merkel will become the leader of the free world on January 20, 2017.

  337. 337.

    celticdragonchick

    @Adam L Silverman:

    I was wondering that myself. Grab your AR platform, cry Aux Barricades! and wait for the SWAT teams to try out their new MRAPs on us?

    What could go wrong? I mean, US police have shown remarkable restraint in dealing with left of center activists!

  340. 340.

    celticdragonchick

    @Adam L Silverman:
    Probably not.

    Of course, Eric Loomis at LGM is the guy who specialized in US labor history and he is a freaking walking fount of dates and body counts when it comes to strikes, Pinkertons and Chicago cops looking to kill some immigrant union members in the late 19th century.

    I stick with the Revolutionary War with occasional forays into WW II and some other armed disagreements.

  341. 341.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    I predicted earlier today that it will be his bromance (he thinks) partner who takes Trump down. Now that he won, Trump really believes he’s all that, and he and his buddy Vladimir are not only bros, but peers.

    However, sooner or later he will cross Putin, and His Orange Idiocy will be in for a surprise. Those KGB folks don’t play beanbag, and I can’t imagine that there isn’t some serious bad shit the Russians can disclose about the President elect. I also believe that Putin gains much more by taking down a POTUS than with a war – he theoretically (realistically?) risks no losses because the US isn’t going to start shooting because POTUS is humiliated. I think. But I believe His Orange Idiocy now knows he’s a tough guy and piss off his buddy with some stupid posturing.

  342. 342.

    celticdragonchick

    Calling it a night, everyone.

    Elie…calm down and go get a drink or something. For God’s sake, lay off the Wolverines! stuff.

    Non violent monkey wrenching works far, far better in most cases.

  344. 344.

    celticdragonchick

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Just before I go hit the sack…

    I honest to God really wanted to go do my post grad work in geology. Science is my first academic love (and then I found out I needed a math degree also to get into the seismology Ph.D program at UNC Chapel Hill…and I am hurt too damned bad to go do field work in structural geology)

    If I go for my doctorate at some point, it is going to be in history I think. Just talking to you for no particular reason right now but I was thinking about this when I brought up Loomis.

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