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You are here: Home / If I ever lose my faith in you

If I ever lose my faith in you

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I’ve always been a big skeptic of having faithless electors choose someone other than Trump to be president (though I do admire conservatives who suggest this should happen). For one thing, I think it sets a terrible precedent. For another, most plans seem to involve installing a regular Republican like Kasich, and it’s not clear to me that a regular Republican wouldn’t do more damage than Trump. A regular Republican president would probably be more popular and possibly seen as less illegitimate, and that would give that president more latitude to do all the awful things Paul Ryan wants done on the domestic front.

The revelations about Russian interference in the election have changed my mind. I don’t think it’s a good thing to have a president who is beholden to Putin for his electoral victory, especially when that president has also expressed admiration for Putin and skepticism about NATO and has had advisors who got a lot of money from Putin and may owe a lot of money to Russian oligarchs, and so on. Maybe this makes me an idiot jingoist who can’t accept the true leftist fact that the US deserves to be run by foreign agents after what it did in Central America.

But it’s what I believe nevertheless.

Reader Interactions

184Comments

  1. 1.

    Roger Moore

    I feel about the same way. My big thing is that I see faithless electors as the best of an awful set of choices. I don’t like the precedent, but IMO that means that we should try to use it as an excuse to reform the electoral college. If we can avoid Trump and fix one of the big anti-democratic aspects of our current constitution, that seems like a win/win.

  2. 2.

    Yutsano

    The Electoral College was set up as a hedge against slavery. There is a hint of irony if it keeps us from backsliding too far.

    And to be fair unless the electors install Hillary the next President will have the same zero mandate Drumpf has.

  5. 5.

    Thoroughly Pizzled

    Yeah, I didn’t think it was a good idea, but at this point a terrible precedent will be set. Better a choice allowed by the Constitution than a U.S. president loyal to a foreign power.

  7. 7.

    Tim C.

    @Doug!: pence wont bee worse, he would Bush level bad, but he can at least make the right noises when criticized and understands democratic norms.

  8. 8.

    Trentrunner

    I’m moving into Sarandon territory here, but if the choice is between Putin-puppet Trump and Pence (or equivalent), I’ll take the full range of widespread destruction that Trump will bring. This will stain the GOP for awhile. They are unAmerican in every way.

  9. 9.

    Percysowner

    Would Pence be a demonstrably less awful president?

    Not really. I mean if you want women’s rights, LGBTQ protections to be totally rolled back, the same immigration policies as Trump, a hard on to destroy public education then Pence is your guy. OTOH, Russia might not own him.

  11. 11.

    Tim C.

    Though the optics of all the democratic electors going for a”less bad” Republican would be about the ultimate put down for Trump.

  12. 12.

    Betty Cracker

    I”m not convinced a “regular” Republican who replaced Trump would be popular at all. The Trump voters would see him as a usurper.

  15. 15.

    Alesis

    A regular republican would be sutvstantially superior to Trump.

    The danger Trump poses is not chiefly a threat to the welfare state. That can be rebuilt. Trump and his white nationalist hangers on threaten the liberal project itself. They challenged the very notion of a nation defined by creed rather than blood.

    I would happily replace Trump with Cruz at the earliest possible opportunity.

  16. 16.

    RandomMonster

    @Betty Cracker: Trump would have a strong chance at a second term if he can avoid enough scandalous revelations to get himself impeached. Pence has all the charisma of carrion-eating reptile, and no one would want to give him a second term. Pence would also be more predictable in his behavior, which would make him easier to fight by traditional political means.

  19. 19.

    PhoenixRising

    @Betty Cracker: yes, Trumpeters would see any other R as a usurper. Which is why Hills would need to be his Veep. Health insurance for any replacement level R against lead poisoning administered by Bundy type loons.

  20. 20.

    PhoenixRising

    an idiot jingoist who can’t accept the true leftist fact that the US deserves to be run by foreign agents after what it did in Central America.

    Anyone pondering this stance has to explain how a non nuclear Honduras/El Salvador/Mexico can destroy options for life on this planet in the wrong hands.

    Morally, the cases are analogous. But practically, this comparison allows you to characterize the person making it as Navel Gazing While Rome Burns.

  22. 22.

    Another Scott

    Faithless electors are fine – there have been a few in several cases in the past. But they’re not going to change the outcome. Donnie is going to take the oath on January 20.

    This is an interesting topic on a cold late-fall day, but I hope it burns itself out in the next few days. We need to be thinking more about how to gain allies to fight Donnie’s and the Teabaggers’ proposed policies, not pinning our hopes on something that isn’t going to happen…

    They won the election. We must make them own it.

    My $0.02.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  23. 23.

    Another Scott

    @SW: If he is confirmed, and then breaks his oath, then he can and should be impeached.

    There’s a process…

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  25. 25.

    Joyce H

    Folks, NBC is reporting that Rex Tillerson, CEO of Exxon-Mobil is Trump’s pick for Sec State. If this is true, I think we need to start saying out loud that Trump is a Russian agent. Because there is NO OTHER REASON to appoint this man than orders from the Kremlin.

  26. 26.

    misterpuff

    @Another Scott: This.
    Dems should be polling all the square Establishment Repubs in the House and The Senate and then broadcast the results to the Public.
    Start running ads not against Trump but his Enablers on The Hill and in SCOTUS. Shame the ones who can be shamed: the ones that just want tax cuts, not a World in Disarray Being Gamed by The Russians.

  29. 29.

    Mnemosyne

    @Thoroughly Pizzled:

    This is where I’m at, too. What’s scaring the fuck out of me right now is that there seem to be a whole lot of Republican loyalists who would prefer to turn the country over to Comrade Putin and make us into a client state of Russia than to let That Woman be president and continue Obama’s liberal and inclusive agenda.

    As I said down below, I underestimated how much international appeal a promise to continue white straight male hegemony would have. White supremacist solidarity is stronger than any actual borders, unfortunately.

  32. 32.

    James E Powell

    They won the election. We must make them own it.

    That’s the ticket. We need 100% Democratic Party opposition and non-cooperation 100% of the time.

  34. 34.

    misterpuff

    OK…… Over and Under on The Iran Overthrow?:

    I say February and we “get all the OIL!”

    “We’ll have some much oil, you won’t believe it”

    “You’re soaking in it”

    After Exxon and Goldman Sachs get their taste!

  35. 35.

    3am

    No, you’re right. This is it for the EC. I fully support and would actively work towards ending it depending on what happens about a week from now.

  36. 36.

    Clem

    A Republican appointed by the EC will never be seen as anything but temporary, especially will not be seen as legitimate by more than half of America. And we don’t know that Trump is not a willing agent of the RU. How easy would it be to put hooks into someone like Trump? An underage girl in a hotel room with video during the Ms Universe pageant. An why would someone like Putin not put the hooks into Trump?

    ETA: Putin gives Trump the election, Trump gives Putin Ukraine and lifts sanctions.

  37. 37.

    eemom

    I can’t find the link right now, but EVERYONE should read Laurence Lessig’s essay explaining the solid legal argument that the “winner takes all” system of allocating electors is unconstitutional. I am frankly disgusted that Clinton didn’t file suit at the get go instead of conceding….anone who thinks for a minute that Trump — or any republican — wouldn’t have done that if the situation were reversed is smoking crack. See Bush, George W.

  39. 39.

    cmorenc

    Unfortunately the cure for the less hard core portion of the electorate who have been the margin since 2010 enabling republicans to win elections involves the tough-love of enough of them suffering severe personsl pain as a consequence and being able to connect it correctly to the gop and trump as its cause – which will be much more obvious and likely to happen with trump than with someone more smoothly mendacious

  40. 40.

    Mnemosyne

    @Cacti:

    As I said in another thread, the only question left in my mind is whether Greenwald has been duped or if he’s an actual paid operative. He’s the one who legitimized and promoted Edward Snowden, who is pretty clearly a Russian operative himself.

  47. 47.

    Inmourning

    The way things are going, I would prefer Pence to DT, on the grounds that he would bore the voters in 2020, and Dems would have a chance. DT will keep the bread and circuses going, and who knows what other authoritarian horrors would await. But I think this outcome unlikely, as DT will be elected and we will be admonished to “give him a chance.”

  50. 50.

    Tazj

    @Cacti: I have to say I don’t get the love affair so many of the left and so many Libertarians have with Putin. They are so critical of US policy and that’s fair, the US has made many mistakes and been responsible for the deaths of innocent people. However, with them Putin can do no wrong. They don’t care how he treats his own citizens. What about the war in Syria, and the deaths of thousands there? They don’t question his tactics and consider him to be some sort of genius. They thought the war there would be over months ago.

  51. 51.

    Dread

    If the EC decides to vote in someone else or kick the decision over to the House, it will probably end up as Pence or Ryan. Will that cause the Trump cultists to revolt? No. They’ll whine and scream about it for a while but they’ll fall in line in 2020.

    Will that president be weakened from being selected in an usual way without a popular vote? Yeah, maybe. But I don’t think that’s necessarily a bad thing if it happens. I think the balance of power should probably shift back towards Congress and Congress should step up and do its fucking job on oversight (real oversight, not BENGHAZZZ!!!!1!! show trials) and get back its war powers.

  55. 55.

    Yarrow

    @Mnemosyne:

    given how strong the Russian connections have been from top to bottom in this election

    Here’s a great thread on twitter that goes chronologically through the various things that have happened to show there’s a strong connection between Trump and Russia. It’s a good reminder in case you’ve forgotten a few. A couple added on at the end, like the one change the Trump folks made to the GOP platform was about Ukraine.

    1. Let me see if I can try & remember all the blatant Russia/Trump things are out there— Grudge (@grudging1) December 10, 2016

  57. 57.

    Baud

    @Mnemosyne:

    I underestimated how much international appeal a promise to continue white straight male hegemony would have.

    Me too. It’s a solidarity that would make a true Marxist green with envy.

  59. 59.

    raven

    @debbie: They haven’t introduced him but he’s supposed to be on with Uncle Vern at some point. There was a protest this morning outside of the stadium.

  61. 61.

    Yarrow

    @debbie: You should be able to click the date in the tweet. It’s a link to that tweet and the rest of them follow from there. It works for me. Did you try that?

  62. 62.

    Steve in the ATL

    @Tazj:

    @Cacti: I have to say I don’t get the love affair so many of the left … have with Putin.

    maybe because the left doesn’t have a love affair with Putin. Perhaps you are confusing the left with the right.

  65. 65.

    Alesis

    Unlike class solidarity racial solidarity has the benefit of being rooted in a supposedly natural hierarchy. Sure we’d love it if more Americans thought of themselves as “working class” but what’s the upside of that?

    Admitting you aren’t a temporarily embarrassed millionaire? Not thanks!

    Now whiteness that is being at the top of the heap. Who doesn’t like that?

  67. 67.

    D58826

    NBC is reporting that its Exxon CEO Rex Tillerson for State and Bolton as number 2.

    As for the EC electing someone other that DT (as in delirium Tremins perhaps), I can’t see der Fuhrer simply shuffling off to Buffalo and keeping his mouth shut. And I can’t see his most vocal and in some cases violence prone supporters following suite. It will be ugly no matter what happens.

  68. 68.

    Yarrow

    @debbie: You’re welcome. :) When I copy the code from the embed tweet function on twitter that’s how it looks when I post them. The date is the link and takes you to the tweet.

    BTW, there are 38 tweets in that list. Be sure to click the “show more” link to see them all.

  70. 70.

    MomSense

    Well I’ve gone and done it. I couldn’t resist engaging with a Twitter dude in a Charlie Pierce thread and I think I may have lumped Pierce in as using a racist smear against Obama. Fuck him. It is fucking racist to call Obama naive and if he is too ignorant to know it, that’s not my problem

  71. 71.

    Mnemosyne

    @Steve in the ATL:

    Remember our old buddy BiP? He was definitely on the left, and just as definitely in the bag for Putin.

    Note that we’re not saying that most Democrats are in the bag for Comrade Putin. However, there is a weird tranche of leftists who romanticize Putin for doing the exact same things the US does or used to do, and insists that any complaints from the US are hypocritical. It’s the updated version of the US can’t complain about apartheid in South Africa since we did the same thing to the American Indians.

    ETA: I can’t post Bobbo’s full name, what with the banhammering and all, but I assume you know who I mean.

  73. 73.

    Keith G

    Trump is the president elect. In a few weeks he will be sworn in as president and he will serve in that office for the next four years, at least. The anecdote to that, to the extent that one is possible is for the Democratic Party to develop a specific program to sell to the American people with an eye to working to pick up the ever-increasing number of disheartened former Trump supporters. That’s how we limit the damage.

  80. 80.

    germy

    The U.S. Government avoided a shutdown on Friday night after Senate Democrats gave up on an effort to extend retired miners’ health insurance and the Senate approved a bill which will keep the government funded through April. New Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer subsequently claimed that the party was never willing to shut down the government over the miner’s insurance, an issue he says they only wanted to highlight. According to Politico’s reporting, it seems like the entire dispute — which wasn’t resolved until an hour before the midnight deadline for funding the government — was likely just an attempted show of gamesmanship by Democrats. Schumer apparently told Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell that he would make sure the bill had the votes this time around, but “next time, negotiate.” Republicans didn’t seem worried about the threat, which was spearheaded by Democratic senators Joe Manchin of West Virginia and Sherrod Brown of Ohio. McConnell has said he supports extending the benefits, and that the Senate will be able to figure out how to do that before April, when the miners’ insurance will run out.

  82. 82.

    Lizzy L

    The NYT is reporting that Tillerson is going to be offered the Secretary of State job.

    Could have been Guiliani, or Bolton. Hell, might still be.

    “Rex Tillerson, the Exxon Mobil chief with ties to Vladimir Putin, is expected to be Donald Trump’s pick for secretary of state.”

  85. 85.

    Yarrow

    Teen Vogue isn’t messing around.

    The CIA officially determined that Russia intervened in our election, and President-elect Donald Trump dismissed the story as if it were a piece of fake news. “These are the same people that said Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction,” his transition team wrote in a statement. “The election ended a long time ago in one of the biggest Electoral College victories in history. It’s now time to move on and ‘Make America Great Again’.”

    It wasn’t one of the biggest Electoral College victories in history, so presumably that’s another red-herring lie to distract from Trump treating the Central Intelligence Agency of the United States like it is some rogue blogger to be cast to the trolls. A foreign government’s interference in our election is a threat to our freedom, and the President-elect’s attempt to undermine the American people’s access to that information undermines the very foundation upon which this country was built. It’s also nothing new.

    Trump won the Presidency by gas light. His rise to power has awakened a force of bigotry by condoning and encouraging hatred, but also by normalizing deception. Civil rights are now on trial, though before we can fight to reassert the march toward equality, we must regain control of the truth.

  89. 89.

    Steve in the ATL

    @Yarrow: I was trying to figure out which once-respected news outlet was now being referred to as Teen Vogue in a Charles Pierce-like manner, but holy shit that’s actually Teen Vogue doing more journalism than the NYT! Er, the Vichy Times.

  90. 90.

    JanieM

    @Yutsano:

    The Electoral College was set up as a hedge against slavery.

    How so? I ask because as far as I can tell, the opposite is true.

    Like the House, the EC originally gave extra weight to slave-owning states (extra congressional representation based on a large segment of non-voting population, i.e. the 3/5 rule). See this article, for more commentary from someone more qualified than I am (to say the least).

  91. 91.

    Nick

    Can we please get beyond the knee-jerk “YEAH WE DID THIS TO A LOT OF PLACES BUT JUST SHUT UP ABOUT THAT”? There’s a reason that our language is filled with idioms like ‘hoist by your own petard’ and ‘chickens come home to roost’ and ‘what goes around comes around’. Sure, we have to resist Trump. But this is also a god-damned moment when we can perhaps suddenly understand that ‘wow, when this happens to your country, it’s not that great! In fact, it really sucks! And it corrupts institutions and turns them against each other!”

    Because no one cared when we did it; and now that it’s been done to us, suddenly we’re not supposed to talk about it either. Why is that?

  93. 93.

    Yarrow

    This article is kind of interesting.

    In 1995, the U.S. Supreme Court let stand the ruling of a federal district judge in Pennsylvania that invalidated a state senate election and ordered the vacancy be filled by the losing opponent.

    The Pennsylvania state senate held a special election in November 1993 to fill a seat that had been left vacant by the death of the previous democratic senator, and pitted Republican Bruce Marks against Democrat William G. Stinson for the spot. Stinson was named the winner, but massive fraud was later uncovered that resulted in litigation.

    Two of the elected officials who testified in the Pennsylvania case said under oath that they were aware of the fraud, had intentionally failed to enforce laws, and hurried to certify Stinson the winner in order to bury the story. The narrative recalls the Washington Post’s revelation that Republican Mitch McConnell was aware of the CIA’s conclusion that Russians had intervened and opted to do nothing.

    In February 1994, after Stinson had already taken office, a federal judge ordered he “be removed from his State Senate office and that [his opponent, Bruce Marks] be certified the winner within 72 hours.”

    Stinson appealed to the United States Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit, but ultimately, this was the first known case in which a federal judge reversed an election outcome. In January 1995, the U.S. Supreme Court allowed the ruling to stand.

  95. 95.

    Yarrow

    @Baud: @Steve in the ATL: Indeed it is Teen Vogue! This is not the first piece like this. They’ve been really good in speaking up for girls/women and telling the truth about what’s been going on in the election.

    And yes, they are way better than the NYT.

  99. 99.

    Mnemosyne

    @Nick:

    Because no one cared when we did it; and now that it’s been done to us, suddenly we’re not supposed to talk about it either. Why is that?

    The problem is that 90 percent of the people you talk to online use Ukraine’s rejection of Putin puppet Yankyuvich as an example of purported US meddling in other countries’ affairs.

    As I alluded to above, we can point to the overthrow of Mossadegh and the re-installation of the Shah as an example of our chickens coming home to roost, but given that the likely result of this coup is war with Iran, I’m pretty sure the folks there would say, Thanks, but no thanks. The agreement that Obama negotiated with us is a much better apology.

  100. 100.

    scottinnj

    @Keith G: I agree with this wholeheartedly – I mean, the GOP was arguably on worse shape after 2008 than the Democratic Party is in 2016. To give credit where credit is due, they had a strategy, stuck to it and look where we are. The Democratic Party needs its Mitch McConnell and Boehner to corall the troops. Are Schumer and Pelosi up to this? I don’t know…My sense is no, we need the next generation of leadership to come to the plate.

    As to dumping Trump – look the only ones with that power are Ryan and McConnell if they want to bring impeachment up to a vote. As to Pence I would say I think he is less likely to start WW III, so that is a positive. I do think the Dems need to make the GOP own Trump/Pence – Hillary didn’t really push that point hard.

  101. 101.

    Nick

    @Mnemosyne:

    That’s fair enough — and I’m not arguing that the fact that we’ve done this many times is a reason to accept this, not at all. It’s a reason for us to seize this chance to understand how destructive that is, and to examine our behaviour going forward. This is not the time to ignore our past — obviously what has happened has many proximate causes, but one fundamental one is going to be the way that our power has led us to make certain assumptions: stability, safety, normalcy, good faith in our politicians, ‘the government’s working‘.

    None of those have been true since 2000 (at least), and until we understand that, we’re vulnerable.

  106. 106.

    raven

    Well the hated media is normalizing the fucker big time. He also got a big ovation from the crowd. Danielson said “you seem to me to be like a coach, you are going out and getting the best people”.

  107. 107.

    Lizzy L

    @D58826: And since Tillerson in fact has no formal diplomatic experience (though as CEO of Exxon, he’s certainly been an international presence), Bolton is going to be a very much hands-on #2.

    Ah, fuckit.

  111. 111.

    Mnemosyne

    @Nick:

    The one other objection I’ll raise is that the majority of the people who think it’s a bad idea for us to mess with other countries’ elections are already on the left. People on the right have no problem with the US messing with other people’s elections, so there’s no hypocrisy in them deciding it was no big deal for Russia to pick our next president.

    If you can find someone on the conservative and/or Republican side who thought it was good for the US to meddle in overseas elections and bad for Putin to meddle in our election, I’ll be happy to lecture that person about what a fucking moron they are, but those people seem to be few and far between so far.

  112. 112.

    MomSense

    @scottinnj:

    The problem is that the media definitely picks winners and losers. In spite of unprecedented use of the filibuster and McConnell’s obstructionist plan from day one, the media kept framing the problem as Obama failing to lead or failing to have drinks like Tip and the Gipper back in the good ole days. Remember how the media Ebola’d the 2014 midterm elections? And we have just lived through probably the worst media failure since the lead up to the Iraq War. Even if you set aside the Limbaugh like right wing stuff,you still have television, cable, print, and even public (NPR) news accepting and repeating uncritically Republican framing.

    Any strategy Dems develop has to deal with the reality of a hostile and biased press. The Republicans are at a distinct media advantage.

  117. 117.

    Brachiator

    @scottinnj:

    I do think the Dems need to make the GOP own Trump/Pence

    I don’t see that the GOP has any problem owning Trump. They see him as their path to perpetual control at the federal and state level.

  119. 119.

    Nick

    @Mnemosyne:

    Nope, this is correct too — we’re not even disagreeing. My complaint is with people like the OP who automatically want to shut down this point (why?); and people like Major Major Major Major who don’t even want to be in the same room with it. In what other walk of life does this attitude prevail?

    Put another way, I spent a lot of time in Laos — the people there were very nice to me, no one ever threw our nasty history of bombing the crap out of them in my face. Here, America has received a tiny fraction of what it has done to other countries for decades, and any discussion of that fact has to be prefaced by “Everyone shut the hell up about the past! Not the time for it!” It is the time for it — not for blame, but for understanding.

    My theory on this is that Americans cast politics in a moral frame — that they don’t feel comfortable advocating or opposing something unless they have the moral high ground. Here, America doesn’t — so the response is what Major Major Major Major typed above: “Go away”.

  120. 120.

    Ruckus

    @Trentrunner:
    I believe he would be worse only because he has a clear plan to destruction and enablers in congress to do exactly what his idiot mind wants. The current issue is that we really don’t know what the shit-gibbon will do at any given moment, we just know it won’t be good. We know this from his personality and his wonderful business ethics and many huge business successes.

  122. 122.

    Mnemosyne

    @Major Major Major Major:

    Well, to be fair, we did make a series of stupid foreign policy decisions (including covert meddling) that helped lead to 9/11, and many of those dumb decisions were Cold War ones. But there is a difference between blame and responsibility, and I think we can say that poor decisions by the US government over several decades were partially responsible for 9/11 without saying that those decisions were specifically to blame for 9/11.

  123. 123.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    @eemom:

    Laurence Lessig’s essay explaining the solid legal argument that the “winner takes all” system of allocating electors is unconstitutional.

    That would effectively turn the election in a reflection of the House electing the President with a bias to the small population states.

  128. 128.

    Mnemosyne

    @Nick:

    The reason the initial impulse was to shut you down is that we’ve had a series of trolls who are eager to nitpick every possible decision made by the Democratic Party for the last 30 years while ignoring the fucking shit-covered elephant in the room that is the Russian-enabled election of Donald Trump.

    The people who sympathize with your view already sympathize with it. DougJ was alluding to some leftists’ idiotic opinion about Ukraine be the result of purported US meddling, not any kind of overall analysis.

  131. 131.

    MomSense

    @Mnemosyne:

    Another obvious problem is that the USSR and Russia haven’t exactly refrained from meddling and they have an atrocious human rights record.

  133. 133.

    debbie

    Anyone else think this may be why Trump’s avoided intelligence briefings? That maybe he thought they would be able to see through him?

  136. 136.

    gorram

    @Nick: It’s particularly egregious when you think about it because a decent number of the people who had to flee their home countries when this happened ended up in the US. Of them, a fairly high percentage, if able to vote, appear to have voted against Putin’s choice. “We did this to them and then it happened to us” seems to overlook that some of the “them” and the “us” are the exact same people. “We did this to them and then they did it to us” does that and then misapplies the blame astoundingly.

  138. 138.

    Ruckus

    @Another Scott:
    The problem of course is not what should happen if the shit gibbon is all the things we think he is and should be impeached, it is would the repubs do it and look who we get if they do.
    First in line – Dense Pence
    Second in line – Ryan
    Third in line – Orrin Hatch
    Fourth in line – Who the hell knows
    Not one of these is a better choice than drumpf. They are bad for different reasons but they are all horrible.
    This is why I say we are fucked. The bench is stacked with shit stains.

  139. 139.

    Yarrow

    @debbie: You’re not the only one who has put forth that idea. He’s also lazy and incurious so probably finds them boring. He isn’t going to do that kind of decision making anyway. His people will and he’ll rubber stamp it and maybe give a speech. Then go hold a rally.

  140. 140.

    Mnemosyne

    @Nick:

    Also, too, as I already said above, it’s all well and good to say, Well, now the US knows how other countries felt when we did this to them, but for the most part, those exact same countries are going to be the ones to suffer most from Trump’s victory. The citizens of Iran aren’t going to get much satisfaction from saying I told you so in the days before Trump authorizes an invasion with a joint Russian-US force.

  142. 142.

    EBT

    @Baud: Really all they did was *tell* people the trains were on time. I am sure that deadbeat donnie can accomplish the same lie, as it seems rather a low bar compared to his own set.

  145. 145.

    Baud

    @EBT: I really don’t think they can keep it up successfully without the media focusing on Hillary’s emails 24/7. But we’ll see.

  147. 147.

    Mnemosyne

    @gorram:

    “We did this to them and then it happened to us” seems to overlook that some of the “them” and the “us” are the exact same people. “We did this to them and then they did it to us” does that and then misapplies the blame astoundingly.

    Co-signed. This is exactly my point as well. Being at any level gleeful that the US is going to be treated the way we treated Iran completely overlooks the fact that Iran (for just one example) is going to be even worse off than we will once Trump and Putin get done with them.

    @MomSense:

    Yep. Even if one feels that the US has been a bad actor in the world, how on earth do you decide that it’s somehow going to be fixed when the US teams up with an even worse actor.

    Because that’s what’s going on here, folks. Putin hasn’t neutralized the US. He has co-opted us. All that horrible, meddling shit you’re pissed at the US about? It’s about to get ten times worse, because Putin does that exact same shit, too, and now his buddy Trump is going to join up with him.

    You thought Putin wanted to cut the head off the American empire, but he really wanted to add us to his own empire.

  149. 149.

    divF

    @scottinnj:

    we need the next generation of leadership to come to the plate

    Fun fact: Mitch McConnell is 8 years older than Chuck Schumer. McConnell was the mastermind of the GOP comeback, starting 8 years ago.

    IOW, Schumer is the next generation of leadership. Also, this is a case where old age and treachery is required, not youth and strength.

  150. 150.

    EBT

    @Baud: Depends on if deadbeat donnie can keep one news network with a camera feed or not. he Can feed what ever he feels like to the aether as long as he was one willing microphone.

  151. 151.

    Mnemosyne

    @El Caganer:

    How well is Chile going to fare against a joint Russian/US hegemony? I’m pretty sure the only thing worse than rival American and Russian empires is having a joint American/Russian empire.

    This is going to be the worst episode of “Superfriends” ever.

  157. 157.

    Yarrow

    @EBT: He’s basically doing “Trump TV” by bringing Right Side Broadcasting Network into the White House.

    The right-wing online media outlet that has been dubbed a de facto “Trump TV” has announced it will be rolling out 24-hour coverage and that it expects to receive White House credentials once Donald Trump is in power.

    Right Side Broadcasting Network (RSBN) has covered almost every single Trump appearance, interview or rally since it was first launched in July 2015, and has been endorsed by the President-elect himself.

    While there was speculation that Mr Trump would launch an official Trump TV if he lost the election, the Washington Post said RSBN was operating as “the unofficial version of Trump TV” after the billionaire’s campaign teamed up with the network to stream its programmes on Mr Trump’s Facebook page.

    Link.

  158. 158.

    EBT

    @Baud: his People really just need constant affirmation their worldview is correct, as long as it’s continuious most of his base will believe whatever he says. he Really does just need a loudspeaker blaring on the corner to keep it.
    @Yarrow: Here is the loudspeaker he needs.

  159. 159.

    gorram

    @Mnemosyne: I agree with your point but I think it’s useful to note we’re not quite saying the right thing. You’re right that in the larger world, the people screwed over by decades of US interventions are some of the same people most endangered by a Trump presidency – namely Iranian people. For one thing, a Trump presidency doesn’t seem like it reduces the risk of foreign interventions particularly in the Middle East, so us having our elections fixed (in this way) increases their risk of having their electoral systems attacked yet again.

    I think I’m right too, about the danger of another group of people, mostly in Latin America – who had their votes compromised in their countries of origin by US-led Cold War interventions, fled in the ensuing violence, in many cases ended up as undocumented people in the US by the early 1980s, were able to claim citizenship during the 1980s or 1990s, and per most polling are part of a voting bloc that didn’t support Trump. In some ways they have a similar experience, but it seems remarkable to me that they had their votes directly discredited in the name of fixing the results, now in two countries. For what it’s worth, by and large, that group of US voters are also dramatically endangered by Trump’s proposed and alluded-to policies.

  162. 162.

    misterpuff

    @raven: Yup Danielson on my shit list. Comparing Drumpf to Parcells and Belichek…..well maybe the Belichek comparison is apt, both will cheat to get what they want.

  163. 163.

    MomSense

    @Mnemosyne:

    Exactly right. Trump and the people he surrounds himself with have the same worldview/ideology as the worst of US foreign policy actors who did terrible things in our name. They share this ideology with Putin. They have opposed Obama and worked to defeat Clinton because they had begun the process of changing our foreign policy paradigm. Basically the Russian assholes have co opted the US assholes and there will be much human suffering as a result.

  164. 164.

    Mnemosyne

    @gorram:

    Yes, sorry, I didn’t mean to elide over your similar but separate point. It’s going to be hard for immigrants to the US from, say, Guatemala or El Salvador to feel any kind of glee over the US having suffered a similar kind of interference, especially since the fallout will affect them even more directly than most.

  165. 165.

    Ian

    @germy:
    Why should we vote for the government to stay open? That is their job now. We should only vote for clean CRs, nothing else. If it shuts down, fuckit, that is on them. And what the fuck happened to the republicans would produce a budget?

  171. 171.

    JanieM

    @eemom: Based on this, which I admittedly only skimmed, it certainly doesn’t sound like he’s proposing to do it like Maine and Nebraska currently do it. I think he’s proposing to allocate a state’s electors proportially to the statewide vote.

    ??

    Personally I wish we could get rid of the disproportionality that results from having the # of electors in each state based on congressional seats+the Senate. In fact, if any lawyers around here have the patience to read the entire piece at the link, I wonder why the argument they’re making about equal protection doesn’t cover that too, and not just the winner take all aspect.

  172. 172.

    eemom

    @JanieM:

    The piece does address the “number of senators” issue to the extent of saying that that particular aspect of the current system wouldn’t have made a difference here; and it’s harder to challenge that for the same reasons it’s hard to challenge the allocation of senate seats itself….notwithstanding that it’s one of the biggest reasons we are a fucked, dysfunctional “republic.”

  173. 173.

    Steve in the ATL

    @eemom: I’m a lawyer too but instead of reading this piece right now I’m going to a party. With adult beverages.

    But the sooner we scrap this form of government and go to a roman senate type arrangement, the better.

  174. 174.

    Another Scott

    @eemom: Even if Adam’s (briefly presented) argument is flawed, his basic conclusion is correct (it seems to me). The Economist:

    […]

    The logic becomes even more confounded when Mr Lessig explains why electors this time around should cast their votes for Hillary Clinton. It’s not because the people went “crazy” and voted for a dangerous and unqualified candidate. Precisely the opposite. “The winner, by far, of the popular vote”, Mr Lessig says, “is the most qualified candidate for president in more than a generation”. Whether you “[l]ike her or not”, he continues, “no elector could have a good-faith reason to vote against her because of her qualifications. Choosing her is thus plainly within the bounds of a reasonable judgment by the people.”

    Where to begin? It’s understandable why a Hillary Clinton supporter would look at the 2m more votes she won and lament that the electoral vote is what counts in American elections. But the electoral vote is what counts in American elections. Those were the rules of the electoral game, for better or worse, and any move after the fact to change the rules is a serious injustice to the winning candidate and an affront to American democracy as we know it. John Rawls, the great 20th-century political theorist, called this the “legitimate expectations” theory of distributive justice. Playing by the rules should result in the spoils that rule-following doles out to all involved parties. To tweak an admonition often directed to pre-schoolers, you get what you get, and whether or not you get what you want, you don’t get to upset the structure under which everyone was operating in the first place.

    Hail Mary attempts to thwart a Trump presidency—whether it’s throwing good money after bad in expensive recounts that have no real chance of changing the outcome or reimagining the nature of an old and weird institution with roots in the protection of slave states—are understandable. But they are desperate, and the latter is dangerous. Electors are better off doing what they were haphazardly appointed to do under America’s unique and all-too-flawed electoral set-up: represent the vote totals of their home states.

    Yup.

    There’s no argument from history that says that the electors were somehow “designed” to follow the popular vote.

    Electors are free to vote for others – if they’re willing to break their state’s rules and requirements – (and have sometimes done so in the past). But Donnie won the EC vote and will take off ice on January 20. Saying that Hillary should get the prize from the EC would be a huge change, and would be breaking the system, and would be a dangerous change. If we want to change the EC system, we have to do it before-hand.

    Ultimately, the House and Senate has to certify the results on January 6, 2017, or the House has to pick a winner if there is no EC majority, and we know what the House would do.

    FWIW.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  175. 175.

    Tazj

    @Steve in the ATL:I think you’re right that most of the left doesn’t love Putin. I should have more accurately said the Alt-left or fringe left(I was really thinking about Jill Stein and others).

  177. 177.

    tybee

    The contretemps with China over the Taiwan phone call is interesting. Could simply be Trump’s ignorance? But, given evidence that this call less spontaneous than Trump is saying, maybe the start of something more. I can think of some reasons, but they’re even more depressing than our current situation.

    “…Two great men yet brothers not make the north united stand
    Its power be seen to grow, and fear possess the eastern lands…
    These are the signs I bring to you to show you when the time is nigh
    Man, man, your time is sand, your ways are leaves upon the sea
    I am the eyes of Nostradamus, all your ways are known to me”

  178. 178.

    eemom

    @Another Scott:

    Nope. That makes no mention of Lessig’s Equal Protection argument, which is key to what he’s saying.

    Look, I know it’s hard work, but you have to read the damn thing.

    That Economist blurb is a typical third grade level emmessemm dismissal of, you know, the actual issues.

  179. 179.

    Another Scott

    @eemom: Lessig’s piece is here:

    Conventional wisdom tells us that the electoral college requires that the person who lost the popular vote this year must nonetheless become our president. That view is an insult to our framers. It is compelled by nothing in our Constitution. It should be rejected by anyone with any understanding of our democratic traditions  — most important, the electors themselves.

    That’s the opening paragraph. It’s plainly wrong, as has been demonstrated in this thread.

    Maybe you can straighten us out on how Lessig is correct and how everyone else here who has expressed an opinion has it wrong. Or is that too hard compared to throwing around taunts and insults?

    ;-p

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  180. 180.

    J R in WV

    @Mnemosyne:

    Why would you believe that BiP was actually a leftist? He claimed so many things that were obviously untrue, but that one detail, that’s gotta be the truth?

    Nah…

  181. 181.

    eemom

    @Another Scott:

    You still haven’t read the article I linked, have you? (pro-tip: it’s different from the one you linked).

    And I have no idea what you’re talking about, even wrt that paragraph you quoted. It is absolutely true that the Constitution does NOT require the electors to place trump in office; and that one of the reasons the electoral college exists is precisely to prevent something like trump from becoming president. Nobody disputes that. Sorry if it insults your intelligence, such as it is.

  182. 182.

    Tazj

    This is my point, perhaps very poorly made in my previous post, because I conflated the reactions of conservatives and some on the far left to Putin’s interference in the election.
    Conservatives admire Putin’s authoritarianism and militaristic tendencies and seem to believe his approach to governing his own country and dealing with ISIS is superior to our own.
    However, some on the far left or fringe left seem very blasé about Russia’s interference in our election. They would rather talk about US failures or Clinton’s failures instead of talking about how this could dangerously affect the future of the US.
    Maybe some on the far left don’t “love” Putin and I’m probably wildly overestimating their influence, but as someone on left I’m disappointed in their reactions.

  184. 184.

    LongHairedWeirdo

    I would respect the action – but they won’t do it. They created the tiger, the don’t dare stop trying to hold it while they ride it.

    But I could be wrong. It’s just barely possible they realize that this would wreck the GOP – and that it’s in sore need of wrecking.

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