There’s no way to parse what happened in the few weeks before the election without recognizing that both FBI director Comey and Senate Majority Leader McConnell effectively colluded with Russia to throw this election.
Comey can’t not have known about the Russia connection to the emails, and yet chose to violate policy, precedent and explicit advice from Justice in his email letter ten days before the vote.
McConnell was specifically briefed on Russia’s efforts to influence the election, and he pressured (successfully, alas) the Obama administration to withhold that information from the public.
Both of them made choices that directly enabled Putin’s efforts. Both of them knew, to a virtual certainty, that this was the case.
Both of them are in my view traitors — both to our country as it is now, and to the idea of a representative democracy America is supposed to embody.
And one more one more thing: Elaine Chao, McConnell’s wife, is Trump’s nominee for Transportation secretary. It is unconfirmed at this time that this is payment for services rendered. It would, however, be irresponsible not to speculate.
Image: Andrea del Sarto, Study for a “Shame Painting” — In Italy, this form of execution was associated w. traitors. Before 1530.
Corner Stone
Hmmm.
Mary
If we ever get another Democrat in the White House, all these fuckers need to be indicted.
Clem
James Comey got a big ol belly laugh when he heard Obama wanted a report before leaving office. Hahahahahahahaha. Prolly called up his ol buddy Mitch, “Hey Mitch, wait til you hear this one!”
scottinnj
And let’s also call this a coup, not an election.
Corner Stone
@Mary: Look forward.
West of the Cascades
But Hillary used a private email server! Both sides do it!
Ian
Chao may be the closest thing to a sane person so far in the administration. The nepotism of appointing the majority senate leader’s wife and yet another close connection to Taiwan do raise some serious questions tho. It might, as the favourite phrase of the NYT goes, create smoke around the ethics of this campaign.
dmsilev
Yeah, at this point I don’t think it’s hyperbole to look at the phrase “aid and comfort of enemies of the United States, domestic and foreign” and nod. Unless one thinks that Putin is our bosom buddy, of course.
XTPD
To the list of traitors, I submit: Stephen A. Burke, the CEO of NBC, the network emerged during this campaign cycle as arguably the worst Clenis-bothering outlet; Jeff Zucker, who in addition to having already destroyed CNN replaced its conservative stable with Trump’s mini-Nahimanas; and Mark Burnett, who not only is responsible for the rise of Trump via The Apprentice, but actively suppressed Trump leaks…and is currently in talks to do a Palin-type reality show with Putin.
Omnes Omnibus
@dmsilev: We are not at war with Russia.
Mary
@Corner Stone: I am looking forward … to these assholes eventually getting their comeuppance. (OK, probably not, but a girl can dream!)
West of the Cascades
@Clem:
Didn’t the President ask the CIA for the report? From the headlines I’m skimming (still too afraid to read the text of any unfiltered news stories, i.e. not filtered through my favorite bloggers), it sounds like the CIA and FBI are not liking one another much these days, and that Herr Trump is firmly against the CIA. It could make this very interesting.
patrick II
I haven’t heard much about Obama’s passivity during the various right-wing/russian/fbi indescretions, crimes, and traitorous behavior, but as much as I like the president, would he have had the right to shut down Comey before he released his letter? or highlight Trump connections to Russia, or generally be more assertive about using his presidential power to keep things on the up and up? It’s important to be neutral during a normal election, but when an election is this far outside of normal bounds and Obama insists on staying in his lane and taking the high road, did he live up to his higher responsibilities?
Corner Stone
@Omnes Omnibus: You sure about that?
Mnemosyne
@dmsilev:
I have genuinely, no shit seen people argue online that it can’t be treason unless there’s an actual declared war going on. IANAL, so I have no idea if that’s true or not.
Of course, these same people argue that Putin isn’t our enemy, he’s our bestest buddy, so there may be some bias there. ?
Omnes Omnibus
@Corner Stone: Not formally. For treason to come into play, that is a requirement. Sedition, however? That is another thing.
Corner Stone
@Mary: You should look forward to stocking up on duct tape and plastic sheeting. And food rated buckets of beans and rice. And maybe some sand bags. And .22 ammo as it will be the most useful barter item in the coming years.
SiubhanDuinne
Shortly after that announcement was made, some person on some program pointed out that there was “precedent” because Chao had also been Dubya’s Secretary of Labor and nobody was screaming “nepotism.” What the other guests and the program host (was it Tweety? I can’t remember) failed to point out was that when Chao was appointed in early 2001, Mitch was not in a leadership role.
Big difference between being a backbencher or fifth-tier GOP assistant deputy surrogate something something and being the most senior member of the Senate, and having your wife nominated to the Cabinet.
Yeah, it stinks of payback. And I don’t hate Chao as either a person or a professional (although her taste in men sucks).
Omnes Omnibus
@Corner Stone:
Not 12 gauge shells?
Mnemosyne
@Omnes Omnibus:
I am going to ask this as calmly as I can, and I hope you understand the spirit in which I am asking it:
Are you telling me that there is no Constitutional bar to elected US officials conspiring with a foreign government to fix a US election? Is there at least a fucking law against it, or is that just another of the little loopholes the Republicans have found in our system?
(Edited and clarified)
dmsilev
@Omnes Omnibus: The legalisms are a moot point unless you think there’s a non-zero chance of an actual indictment (either in the courts or via Congressional impeachment).
SiubhanDuinne
@XTPD:
I can’t help noticing that Les Moonves (President of CBS) is conspicuous by his absence in your list.
Corner Stone
@Omnes Omnibus: God no. Overkill for using against rats, pigeons or squirrels. Easier to use quietly as well. A .22 rimfire will fit into both a pistol or long barreled rifle and is easy to transport multiple hundreds of rounds. Lethal against a mutant cannibal hominid as well if placed properly.
Major Major Major Major
I mean, Obama chose not to go public with it too, to be fair. Still looking for reasons not to be mad at him for it.
@Omnes Omnibus: .22 ammo is very versatile.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Mnemosyne: The crime of treason does require an actual declared war(as Omnes said).
Lizzy L
Would like to point out — I am not a Constitutional scholar, nor a lawyer, but AFAICT, McConnell can do the advise & consent thing for all these appointments on majority vote. He’s not required to hold hearings. (The exception would be SCOTUS appointments.)
I will not be at all surprised if he does just that.
jeffreyw
@Omnes Omnibus:
It’s like having only twenties when you really just need a nickle for the gumdrop machine.
Omnes Omnibus
@Mnemosyne: I am not telling you that. I am saying that treason has a specific legal definition and the common understanding of it requires a declared war in order to have an “enemy.” . Go look up sedition. There are also election and espionage laws that may have been violated.
I am not saying that these assholes did not act against the interests of the US, but that is, in and of itself, not necessarily treason.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Major Major Major Major: You can even “fire it” with a rock, though the results could be a tad bit dicey.
Gvg
Apparently the Constitution spells out treason in such a narrow way that it almost never applies. I believe the norm before our Constitution spelled it out was for all countries to interpret treason as whatever their ruler or leader didn’t like which meant it was overused and distrusted by our founders as an accusation. Of course we have to note that what they did was always going to be considered treason against England and that probably influenced their opinions too.
It may not be legally treason but it’s not good and is clearly wrong and dangerous to our lives even.
You know when I was growing up and learning civics and all, distrust of the soviets or Russia was just common sense. No politician hired people with known connections to them except maybe as advisors to negotiations. I really can’t take in still not only Trump doing so successfully but Bernie had Russian connections too AND Stein. Seems to me Putin was trying multiple attacks. Hillary is the only one who followed the rules that I know. I am pretty worried about this and the upcoming elections in Europe. Wonder how many of their candidates have ties to Russia.
Corner Stone
@Major Major Major Major:
That is not what Tom’s post says, however. Somehow, President Obama once again has a complete lack of agency in this matter.
Mike in NC
Trump and McConnell will do a lot of backscratching in the coming months. Let’s look forward to next week as more psychopaths are named to his Anti-Cabinet.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Lizzy L:
Until the TV machine came along, there were rarely hearings for SCOTUS nominees either.
Mai.naem.mobile
@Major Major Major Major: directly from Obama would never have worked because they would have been looked upon as trying to throw the election . Through CIA leaks may have worked.
Omnes Omnibus
@Corner Stone: @Major Major Major Major: Interesting thought. I wasn’t thinking about rodent hunting.
Omnes Omnibus
Army wins!
Major Major Major Major
@BillinGlendaleCA: I don’t know what else you’re expecting if you’re trying to fire a bullet with a rock.
Adam L Silverman
@scottinnj: Its not a coup. The legitimate government of the US has not been overthrown either through force or the threat of force.
Adam L Silverman
@West of the Cascades: The request was of the Intelligence Community. It will be done under the purview of the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, which overseas all of the IC including counterintelligence. The Director of the FBI has very little to no control over this.
Corner Stone
@Gvg:
That’s just not true. It defined treason very broadly to include any elected Democratic President residing in the WH, as default.
Omnes Omnibus
@Adam L Silverman: Precise definitions are having a tough time in this thread.
Major Major Major Major
@Mai.naem.mobile:
Oh, good thing we dodged that bullet.
Mai.naem.mobile
I still think the key to Trump is his taxes. Koskinen or somebody needs to leak the taxes. Two reasons -you see the direct connections to China/Russia and wherever else You have them for the past,present and future. Secondly, one of the few times the numbers went down for Trump with Republicans was when it was revealed he hadn’t paid any federal taxes. It would be the chink in his Teflon armor.
JPL
@Major Major Major Major: In order to present it to the American public it had to be bipartisan. I do think he could have stated that he asked Congress to release a bipartisan statement, though.
Of course, Mitch would lie like hell.
I’m upset too, but the one thing about Obama is Country First.
Mary
@Corner Stone: My husband has a bit of a doomsday prepper streak in him, so we actually have all that stuff already.
Adam L Silverman
@Major Major Major Major: Actually the Obama Administration did go public. Secretary Johnson at DHS made a public, but subdued announcement about election integrity concerns and DHS made it publicly clear they offered assistance to state and county election officials to ensure election integrity. What didn’t happen was a full throated, across the board, President at the podium with the Majority and Minority Leaders of the Senate and the Speaker, Majority, and Minority Leaders of the House standing with the DNI, DCI, AG, and Secretary of DHS while making a public statement on this.
MomSense
@Corner Stone:
But plenty of people at that meeting did go public. Reid went very public with an open letter to Comey. He interviewed with the NYT and I’d still like to know why the paper dropped that story. The president and Vice Presidents did make statements. Clinton told 60+ million people on live tv.
I just saw on my twitter feed a story on Slate that McCain and Graham are going to hold hearings and it sounded like coordination with Obama.
1. I think we all thought Clinton would win. Hell even the exit polling looked good.
2. There was a huge risk of blow back if the issue had been pushed by Obama. McConnell, Republicans, the media all would have run with the narrative that the president was a bitter partisan playing politics and trying to meddle in the election. I don’t have any confidence that the media would have covered it accurately
3. The president has to be impeccable in his constitutional role. I still hold out some hope that the evidence will get a better hearing since he has been so careful and gracious to the PEOTUS
4. This info was out there in plenty of open sources. Even the RNC hack was briefly acknowledged by Priebus (could have been Guy from house intelligence I can’t remember) and then walked back almost immediately.
5. Yeah I wish we could do more but I don’t think the president had a better option
JPL
@Adam L Silverman: Since you seem to have sources, do you have any idea what is up with Comey? I never felt he was a partisan hack, but now I’m not sure.
Corner Stone
@Omnes Omnibus: Our institutions are having a rough time in the real world also. Legal niceties are nice.
Mai.naem.mobile
@Major Major Major Major: I get what you are saying but I can’t blame him for not doing it. Jeezus,nobody thought Lumpy was going to win. Even Lumpy himself didn’t think he was going to win. There was a possibility the Repubs would have been even more motivated to vote if Obama had gone out with a national address .
Corner Stone
@JPL:
Never starting since when? When Obama nominated him?
Mnemosyne
@Omnes Omnibus:
I did look up sedition. Everything I’m reading says that it’s only when you talk about overthrowing the government, but of course, they didn’t do that, they only talked about stealing the election. There seems to be absolutely no bar in US law to conspiring with a foreign power to steal an election, especially if you get away with it and ensure there’s no one willing to indict you.
Right now, it’s sounding like there’s absolutely no bar to Trump sharing everything he’s told as president with Putin since he’s now the arbiter of what is and is not top secret. Yes?
Corner Stone
@Mai.naem.mobile: We were under attack. That is clear. A well defined antagonist with a well defined goal. They all fucking knew it.
Major Major Major Major
@Adam L Silverman: That’s what I meant. He could have done that with all but three of those people in attendance. He could even have slagged them for playing politics with national security. He chose not to, and I’m upset about it.
dm
@Mike in NC: speaking of anti-cabinet, I’ve been wondering why there is no talk of Hillary and the Democrats forming a “shadow cabinet”. Under the circumstances it seems like a good idea, even if the lack of a parliamentary system makes it just a publicity move.
JPL
Wasn’t there a story about one of Trumps visiting France and meeting with a Russian diplomat, last October?
It’s time to google
http://www.businessinsider.com/donald-trump-jr-syria-russia-2016-11
It’s time for the CIA to tell the Washington Post more
Mai.naem.mobile
@JPL: well, Obama doing something unsavory may be putting Country First at this point. You can’t just pull the Boy Scout stuff now .
Adam L Silverman
@Omnes Omnibus: Holy Crap! Well this is definitely a sign of the apocalypse!
Corner Stone
@MomSense: This continued faith in institutions amazes me. Do you see what the belief in being decent and honoring “the office” is going to bring us?
There’s a fucking reason some people stopped talking to friends and/or family over this election. It wasn’t because they disagreed about tax cuts or education policy! FFS
SiubhanDuinne
@JPL:
Yeah, that was Usay.
Link Business Insider.
Adam L Silverman
@Omnes Omnibus: I’ve noticed. Its a tough room.
Corner Stone
@Mary: I am inserting the emoji for side eye times 4.
Steeplejack (tablet)
@Major Major Major Major:
Obama thought (like all of us) that Hillary was going to win. He (and the First Lady) campaigned strenuously for Clinton, so coming out with the information might have looked like using his office to put his thumb on the scale. And I believe this was before Comey put his thumb on the scale.
JPL
@Corner Stone: Even at my age, I’m still naive. I’m working at it though.
Maybe Loretta Lynch will have Manafort arrested .. Okay, I’m just kidding.
Omnes Omnibus
@Mnemosyne: Fine, your film degrees tell you that there is no way that sedition applies and my mention of election and espionage laws means nothing.
ETA: I apologize for being harsh. I managed to severely sprain some muscles on my ribs while coughing today and the painkillers are not quite cutting it.
Corner Stone
@Adam L Silverman: We had the full power of an IC and other operatives to work the proverbial room. Jeh Johnson muttering people need to look to their snaps did not get this done.
MomSense
Here’s another one to add to the list. Carter Page investigated
Adam L Silverman
@JPL: I’m not sure what you mean by sources. As far as I know I don’t know anyone who works at DOJ or FBI. All I know is what I read or see in the news.
Raven
@Omnes Omnibus: It’s why Hanoi Jane, Traitor Bitch isn’t.
Corner Stone
We had the full power of an adversarial nation state clearly bent on bringing us to heel! And we’re worried about precedent and niceties and respect?!
Shit.
Corner Stone
The fucking SCOTUS fucked this entire country in 2000 and distinctly said not to take their decision as precedent. So I guess we didn’t. We haven’t learned a god damned thing in decades.
Mai.naem.mobile
@Corner Stone: yes but you have Alex Jones and Breitbart and Fox and Daily Caller and God knows who else, spraying shit all over like they’re freaking crop dusting. Anything Obama would have said would have been immediately been questioned and treated like he was trying to throw the election. And anyhow, what difference does it make now. You have to look forward to see what can be done now. There will be plenty of time to look backwards.
Baud
@Mai.naem.mobile: And the New York Times.
Omnes Omnibus
@Raven: Yep.
PIGL
@Adam L Silverman: Since we are going with precise definitions, what is a “legitimate government”? And will Trump’s government in waiting, plus the Rethugs gerrymandered House, be a one of those?
Adam L Silverman
@Major Major Major Major: I get you’re upset about it. What over the course of the past 8 years would give you any indication that President Obama would do something like that? Hell, LBJ who was much more rough and tumble in his approach to politics refused to go public with the Nixon campaign’s collusion with the North Vietnamese to wreck the peace talks and provide Nixon with a better chance of being President.
Mnemosyne
@Adam L Silverman:
@Omnes Omnibus:
With the nomination of Putin’s close buddy the Exxon CEO as our new Secretary of State, I think several of us here are realizing that there appears to be no legal bar whatsoever to Comrade Trump basically outsourcing us to the Russians. It’s not espionage if the president authorizes the information being released.
I am currently at the place that Kay has been at since the election: we are totally fucked, and there is no institution left that can help. Congress, the judiciary, and the media have all been suborned and Putin will have total control. No one is going to be prosecuted or even investigated for anything that just happened. And there is nothing we can do about it.
Now, if you’ll excuse me, I need to go drink heavily for a few hours. At a minimum.
rikyrah
Thank you
TREASON
TREASON
TREASON
Corner Stone
@Mai.naem.mobile: Well, I guess we can always enjoy our pre-defeatist mentality. They have the bigger, more rabid megaphone. Let’s honor and respect the office.
Look forward, my friends.
Major Major Major Major
@Adam L Silverman:
There are many things over the past eight years that Obama’s temperament has led him to not do about which I’m upset. This is one of them.
Jeffro
Btw I am reading a piece in Teen Vogue ( i’m out of regulators I saw the link from some other outraged progressives on Twitter) it is so outstanding…
PIGL
@dm: And where are the loud belligerent demands that Trump appoint Democrats to key cabinet positions? Oh wait, only main stream Democratic Party operatives are fucking stupid enough to do that.
Baud
@Jeffro: Someone linked to that earlier. I hope a front pager front pages it. Maybe a NYT reporter will see it and get inspired.
MomSense
@Corner Stone:
What? We both just lived through the media shitshow that was the election coverage. Do you honestly think there would not have been blowback if Obama was the driver of the Russian hacking allegations? Most of the information was already out before that meeting.
I’m of the opinion that our institutions are failing before our eyes and that we have to do whatever we can to prevent him from taking office.
Steeplejack (tablet)
@JPL:
Comey not a partisan hack? This MarketWatch piece is from early November, and it sank like a stone. I don’t remember seeing any links to it on any of the usual newsy/liberal blogs.
Baud
@PIGL: Apparently, Manchin is under consideration for something.
But, yeah, it’s one of infinite double standards.
Starfish
@Mai.naem.mobile: Thanks for speaking up about what actual reality looked like at the time.
Yarrow
@Mnemosyne: Since it doesn’t fit the precise definition of treason you could use Joe Walsh’s “tantamount to treason” phrasing. Yes, that Joe Walsh. Hell. Ice. Etc.
Jeffro
@Baud: I thought I might be a little late to the party.
A lot of young reporters are going to make their bones over the next week or two .
On a more ominous note, I don’t see how we solve this unless the right wing understands that we are willing to blow this whole thing wide-open just like they would
Major Major Major Major
@Starfish: Oh, give me a break. Obama sneezing was seen as a partisan attempt to influence the election.
Yarrow
@Steeplejack (tablet): I wonder what the Russians have on Comey.
Corner Stone
@MomSense: I just disagree with the idea that the office of the president is more important than the country itself. Choosing to not use every tool at his disposal is itself a choice. He did not have to stand in front of the podium and yell about Putin. But every buffer that shut Obama down was left in place. How in the fuck can we say that what candidate Clinton said in a debate is supposed to be as effective, or more effective, than a death by a thousand leaks? How is it that only Russia and Breitbart can play this game? Our IC all knew what was going on. Where was the sustained pushback? Where was the child porn on Mitch’s Senate laptop?
Starfish
@Mnemosyne: But he is not told anything because he is refusing his intelligence briefings.
Adam L Silverman
@JPL: That’s a Logan Act issue.
Baud
@Jeffro: I don’t have any answers. I agree, however, that we need to figure out a way to stop taking responsibility for GOP actions. They control the whole shebang, so the responsibility is 100% theirs. Of course, part of that depends on our own willingness to not hold Dems responsible for not stopping bad GOP actions. I’m not completely sure we’re capable of that.
Adam L Silverman
@Corner Stone: I do not understand what this means:
Corner Stone
@Adam L Silverman: I’m saying that was one statement targeting, I think, maybe a dozen states. We needed to pull out the stops. This was not an election. We were under attack and it was clear for a long time. Subtlety was not the delivery method of choice.
JPL
@Adam L Silverman: Wishful thinking on my part.
bluehill
Josh at TPM has an aptly title post: “Let’s Not Pretend We Didn’t Know This”
In this way, Putin’s efforts seemed pretty clumsy because we seemed to have figured it out well in advance. On the hand, given Adam’s posts on Kompromat, they could have been or likely were doing other things at the same time. Who knows what info they had/made up about key individuals such as Comey or McConnell and who knows how long their recruitment effort has gone on. If true, Putin pulled off perhaps the greatest coup of all time.
Barring a minuscule chance that somehow Trump is not inaugurated, I think the focus shifts to trying to figure out what Russia’s endgame is. I mean the obvious is to weaken NATO, the EU, reclaim parts/all of the former SSRs, but I would not be surprised if his goals are changing given the sweep of the victory in the U.S. (i.e. both houses and SC). In some ways, Putin has become the most powerful person in the world via his influence over the U.S. government. The contretemps with China over the Taiwan phone call is interesting. Could simply be Trump’s ignorance? But, given evidence that this call less spontaneous than Trump is saying, maybe the start of something more. I can think of some reasons, but they’re even more depressing than our current situation.
Hill Dweller
Best case scenario, what would PBO coming out and saying Russia is trying to get Trump elected have accomplished? VP Biden was already openly saying(before the election) the US would retaliate for Russia’s meddling. Hillary talked about their hacking in the debate. The DNC getting hacked was a front page story. It’s not like their hacking/meddling is/was a revelation. Hell, the media knew Podesta was hacked by the Russians, but they didn’t give a shit; nor did it stop them from breathlessly reporting every new tidbit.
Adam L Silverman
@PIGL: This is always the difficult question. Doctrine uses the term to describe a government that is constituted de jure – of law. So this includes everything from democracies to monarchies to even military dictatorships (at times). What I always bring up when this term comes up in a briefing or a meeting or a planning session or what have you is what about the concept of popular legitimacy? As in a government has popular legitimacy.
In regards to the US, because of the quirks of the Constitution, specifically the electoral college, it is quite possible to have a government that is de jure legitimate, but does not have popular legitimacy. Beyond that is the fact that almost everyone is always in a conflicted state of state supporting and state opposing at all times. As in I accept the legitimacy of the government and state and I support it doing X,Y, and Z, but I do not support what it is doing, or how it is doing it, in regard to A, B, and C. The third state is state/government denial where one does not accept the state and the government’s legitimacy.
debbie
@Mnemosyne:
How about subversion? It does have an element of sneakiness to it which I think fits.
Starfish
@Major Major Major Major: Go on. Please explain to me how party in-fighting is a winning cause.
debbie
@Mnemosyne:
How about something happier?
PIGL
@Baud: Manchin….isn’t he the last remaining blue dog, or something? You know, because Liebfraumilch is not available….
Hitless
So what happens to the price of Russian oil and ExxonMobil profits with them if the US goes to war with Iran.
I have a guess, but perhaps Adam could weigh in and tell us what he thinks.
Baud
@PIGL: There’s also Heidi H. from N.D.
Yarrow
Sports metaphor:
PIGL
@Adam L Silverman: I think we heading into the third option myself, given the blatant election fiddling at all levels that have placed and keep the Republicans in power. Have you ever read Legitimation Crisis?
ETA: Thank you for the detailed exposition. I do appreciate that you know a great deal about these matters, and it is very valuable to have you share it all so freely with us. Much harder to sustain than is my occasional sniping.
SiubhanDuinne
@debbie:
A Facebook friend suggests “malfeasance.” Any lawyers care to weigh in?
BillinGlendaleCA
@Adam L Silverman: That and the Cubs winning the World Series, I warned you all. Did you listen? No.
JPL
@Steeplejack (tablet): Thank you for the link. I guess since he did one good thing, I hoped he was above that all.
Omnes Omnibus
@PIGL: You might be thinking Blue Nun not blue dog.
Omnes Omnibus
@Adam L Silverman: In presidential years, when a Dem wins, Army usually wins. If the GOP wins, Navy usually wins. Since WWII, IIRC. Maybe it is a sign of mass faithless electors.
JPL
@bluehill: Trump supporters probably think that Putin has one of the largest economies in the world, rather than a GNP about the size of South Korea. They think he is a hero, rather than a thug who wants to unite the USSR.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud:
Have you seen my pet unicorn?
Omnes Omnibus
@BillinGlendaleCA: Is it kind of glittery?
ETA: Do you have any idea how hard it is to find a virgin in this town? I know, yours is probably worse.
Baud
@BillinGlendaleCA: Last time some dude asked me that, it didn’t work out so well.
Poopyman
@Baud: For you, him, or the unicorn?
artem1s
The emergence of the CIA as a player in this is pretty interesting. I’m wondering how many of them remember trying to get W to pay attention to actual security threats rather than Cheney and Rumfeld’s plans to invade Iraq and Iran for the profits. Maybe they aren’t as willing to let Team Idjit throw them under the bus. W had ex-CIA Poppy overlooking his fuckups. The Orange Idjit thinks NATO is a protection racket. I’ve got to believe there are at least some military and defense department insiders who understand what a threat Russia is to Eastern Europe right now. Do any of them believe that Team Idjit is going to know what to do if Putin threatens to take over some part of Slovakia or Poland like he did Crimea? Putin surely has to believe this is a golden opportunity to enact a Soviet Anschluss and throw up a new Iron Curtain. How can Defense and Security not be horrified at what is happening?
zzyzx
The problem here is simply that one party thinks of government as a useful tool that helps out the lives of others and the other wants to tear it down. There are limits to how far afield you can go when your goal is to protect checks and balances because you think that they’re a good thing.
Omnes Omnibus
@artem1s:
I am sure that the pros are.
Ian
@Mnemosyne:
Treason can occur during peacetime. See one: Aaron Burr. The winner of the final duel of Hamilton.
Feathers
Chasing through the Hamilton Electors threads on the Twitters, one thing I am struck by is that the Founding Fathers never even considered the possibility of there being a President who owed money to a foreign government. I cannot imagine that accepting gifts is unconstitutional while accepting loans is AOK. But we don’t know do we?
Baud
@Poopyman: No comment.
Omnes Omnibus
@Ian: He was not convicted of treason.
Corner Stone
@zzyzx:
One thinks govt can be a force for good in people’s lives. The other thinks govt can be a force to funnel resources to specific people’s lives. Agree with the second part of the comment. We have to one day stop thinking our institutions are going to protect us, and that being decent is some sort of inoculation or protection.
bluehill
@JPL: I’ve been reading a little more philosophy lately because I’ve wondered why does history repeat or rhyme as they say. And my not-so-astonishing answer is that people are people. We may be more “advanced” now, but at our core we haven’t changed much in our needs, wants, instincts, etc. Unfortunately, since we seem to be heading down a well-trod path, I might as well as get a leg up on what comes next.
Listening to a podcast about Plato and his 5 types of regimes. Interestingly he ranks democracy fourth just about tyranny. The highest is aristocracy, which he defines differently than the way I think of it. In any case, here’s wikipedia’s explanation for how democracy turns into tyranny. Sound familiar?
Corner Stone
Decency and respect are not some kind of cloak. Everything is about to be revealed as a failed experiment because we had honor for our traditions.
Lizzy L
@Hitless: Up. Iran was hoping to build a new pipeline and terminal to increase its export. If we actually go to war with Iran, that doesn’t happen and the export probably halts completely.
Japan, India, and China get a significant percentage of their crude oil from Iran.
Ian
@JPL:
Did his part in the whitewater investigations not convince you?
Major Major Major Major
@Starfish: Terribly sorry, I thought we were trying to prevent this from happening again. I’ll just keep acting like this crisis emerged last night fully formed from the head of Zeus and not learn any lessons.
opiejeanne
Sorry to be off-topic but we will be in SoCal by Monday and someone suggested a meet-up next time we are in town. We’ll be staying in Blue Jay but can travel.
What say you, Angelenos?
JPL
@opiejeanne: Send an email to Anne and she’ll post it. I’m on the east coast so count me out.
PeakVT
There doesn’t need to be an actual war anywhere to jack up oil prices. “Uncertainty” (which T.Dump is going to bring in spades) is enough.
It’s hard to believe, but we’re at the point where an unhinged loon could create a multiple-dollar-per-gallon “gas tax” with one irresponsible tweet, but we can’t raise the actual gas tax via legislation, even though our roads and bridges are seriously lacking maintenance.
Yarrow
Trump is not a loyal American.
Omnes Omnibus
@Yarrow: Well, no shit.
Corner Stone
@Yarrow:
But we need to respect the office and respect the tradition of peaceful transition of power.
So let’s give him a chance, eh?
Baud
@Yarrow: I know that guy is getting a lot of praise for being an anti-Trump principled conservative, but at the end of the day, he ran against Hillary instead of calling on people to support her.
Baud
@Yarrow:
@Yarrow:
I know that guy is getting a lot of praise for being an anti-Trump principled conservative, but at the end of the day, he ran against Hillary instead of calling on people to support her.
Omnes Omnibus
@Corner Stone:
Who here is saying that?
BillinGlendaleCA
@opiejeanne: I believe I’m that someone. I think most of us from SoCal are in the western part. But we’d love to meet and greet.,
Major Major Major Major
@Baud: I mean, he’s a Republican. He’s getting credit for not being craven.
Also he’s been a better anti-Trump voice than most actual Democratic pundits.
Omnes Omnibus
@BillinGlendaleCA:
Are you unsure in some way?
Starfish
@Major Major Major Major: The best way to stop foreign tampering in elections and having one side say, “That is totally normal” is to yell at Democrats who have let you down?
Yarrow
@Omnes Omnibus: It’s another phrasing option since traitor has a specific legal definition.
@Corner Stone: Nope. Do not want to give him any chance at all. I don’t know what to wish for exactly. Can’t go back and change what has happened. We’re here now. Preventing him from taking office would be my preference. But then there’s the whole problem of who does take the office. And it could play out in all sorts of not good ways.
Baud
@Major Major Major Major: Slate? Really?
Corner Stone
@Omnes Omnibus: Here? I am not sure. I have never seen President Obama comment here. Unless he was sockpuppeting using goblue?
Omnes Omnibus
@Major Major Major Major:
So is Plant*, my philodendron.
*Yeah, that is its name.
Yarrow
@Baud: Yes, he did. He had his own agenda. Still does.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Omnes Omnibus: I clarified the wording. I’m the one who mentioned it to opiejeannie.
Major Major Major Major
@Baud: yes. I read Slate. I think you should too!
@Omnes Omnibus: after Robert?
@Starfish: fine, I’ll never criticize obama again.
Omnes Omnibus
@Corner Stone: Aha, got it. It is part of your Obama criticism. I saw it as a general call out. Please proceed.
Baud
@Major Major Major Major: Well, it’s not Salon. It’s got that going for it.
Corner Stone
Obama knew all this stuff and a 1000X more when he gave his the “sun will rise again tomorrow” speech.
Argue that he had to. I made the argument that he was a decent man and respected the office and country too much to do otherwise.
IMO we are past that. He knew it ahead of time. More than just a CIA leak confirming what political junkies and people paying attention knew. He knew what Comey knew. He knew what Comey did.
Omnes Omnibus
@Major Major Major Major: I also have a pet rock (a gift) named Rock.
Baud
@Omnes Omnibus: Do you have a cat?
chopper
@Yarrow:
that breakfast sandwich is really on to something.
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud: No. But I am a Leo, if that counts.
Corner Stone
@Omnes Omnibus: I shall. Thank you.
tybee
“…Two great men yet brothers not make the north united stand
Its power be seen to grow, and fear possess the eastern lands…
These are the signs I bring to you to show you when the time is nigh
Man, man, your time is sand, your ways are leaves upon the sea
I am the eyes of Nostradamus, all your ways are known to me”
Baud
@Omnes Omnibus: Just wondering if you would have named it Cat.
Major Major Major Major
@Omnes Omnibus: after The?
@Baud: you should check out their offerings. I’m especially enjoying Bouie lately.
Omnes Omnibus
@Corner Stone: For once, it wasn’t meant sarcastically. I am really of two minds on what Obama could/should have done, and I am not going to make the call while hopped up on goofballs.
Adam L Silverman
@Corner Stone: Okay, now it makes sense. It was the look to the snaps thing that had me confused.
Baud
@Major Major Major Major: OK. For you, once I start caring again. I’ll check them out.
Adam L Silverman
@Hitless: OPEC just reduced production. So that’s why there’s a momentary increase in prices. How long they keep the new caps are a good question.
Suffragete City elftx
Via deadbeat dad Tea Partier Joe Walsh
@WalshFreedom 3h3 hours ago
There’s evidence Russia messed around with our election, but cuz our guy won, people on my side are ok with that?
That’s so fucking wrong.
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud: If male, Gunther. If female, Petra.
Corner Stone
@Adam L Silverman: If you’re not wearing your ball caps sideways and your hightops unlaced, with your pants drooping. How can you be down?
Adam L Silverman
@PIGL: No worries. I’ve actually been toying with doing a post on state supporting, challenging, and denying behavior. I just have to find the book I got that from so I have the appropriate citation. This means finding what I did with the bibliography from my dissertation – I think its on the external hard drive.
Adam L Silverman
@Omnes Omnibus: I thought Army hadn’t won in like 17 years or something.
Omnes Omnibus
@Adam L Silverman: Not since 2001. Hence the use of usually.
ETA: And anyway, they won it this time. Go Army. Beat Navy
Corner Stone
@Omnes Omnibus:
Man, I tried a Black Cherry style of the Extreme Warheads Sour Hard Candy not long ago and that shit ruined my taste buds and appetite for a good 36 hours.
Never a fucking again. I thought Hell had taken up residence in my cheeks.
sukabi
Tom, it shouldn’t really surprise you that McConnell and pretty much the entire republican party don’t have much use for representative democracy, as they spend a good 50% of their time gerrymandering districts, chasing non-existent “voter fraud”, while at the same time enacting voter suppressing legislation and purging voters from the rolls..all in an effort to keep their party in power… Although aligning themselves with the Russians…well, what’s a big bit of treason when you’ve spent the last 3 or 4 decades subverting the will of the people?
Adam L Silverman
@Corner Stone: I’m not down. I may, however, be out.
Adam L Silverman
@Omnes Omnibus: Ahhh.
Steeplejack (tablet)
@Omnes Omnibus:
Wasn’t Petra Gunther a member of the Baader-Meinhof Gang?
eemom
I’m linking Lessig’s Equal Protection piece again, because (1) it really does present a legal way out of this mess; and (2) his argument has been grossly misrepresented in several previous threads.
Anyone who wants to diss on it, PLEASE have the courtesy to read it first.
Major Major Major Major
@Baud: Bouie’s been great on how there’s a moral imperative not to cooperate with Trump.
Jim Newell, from Wonkette, is there now too though he’s been annoying me lately.
Baud
@Omnes Omnibus: Then what would you have named your kids?
Corner Stone
@Adam L Silverman:
We’re here for you, friend. We accept you as you are and for who you are. You are loved. Remember that.
Baud
@eemom:
It’s like you don’t know us at all.
@Major Major Major Major: There’s always an asshole.
Omnes Omnibus
@Steeplejack (tablet): There was a Petra Schelm. If that helps?
Corner Stone
@Steeplejack (tablet):
I thought she was a dancer in the Burlesque revue at the MGM Grand in Las Vegas?
Major Major Major Major
@Baud: and if you can’t tell who it is…
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud: Neither Gunther nor Petra, I can tell you that. Adam or Alexandra have some appeal, but I think that input from the other party to the creation might well be warranted. Just saying.
Mnemosyne
I’m waiting for an open thread so I can post a link to the winner of the Weekend Movie Club poll.
I haven’t started drinking yet, though I am eating chocolate right now. World Market Strawberry & Champagne Dark Chocolate.
Baud
@Major Major Major Major: Never could.
Baud
@Omnes Omnibus: You are a gentleman.
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud: Officer and gentleman by Act of Congress. I have the paperwork.
J R in WV
@BillinGlendaleCA:
You know, I was going along with that requirement for a declared or open combat war, but I read the definition from the Constitution again:
You see there where it says “…levying war against them, OR in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort.”?
I’m believing that the OR in that sentence reflects the obvious fact that even in the late 1700s everyone was aware that all fatal enemies of a state aren’t necessary at war at all times. Between the Revolution and the War of 1812, we weren’t formally at war with England.
But if you don’t think that discovering that a candidate for President was working with and possibly controlled by King George III would have resulted in a trial and execution for treason, I think you didn’t read much about the Revolution. They probably had a great deal of respect for the damage the English could do to a small former colony without a formal declaration of war. OR open combat.
So I’ve decided that Tom is probably correct, that Trump and McConnell and Comey are all guilty of “adhering” to our enemy, Russia, and “giving them aid and comfort”. Close enough for me, anyway. Hang ’em high! No, not there, higher!!
Grrrrr.
Omnes Omnibus
@J R in WV: There is case law that “enemies” don’t exist without a declared war. Adversaries do not exist without a declared war. Thus, the USSR was an adversary, not an enemy. The Rosenbergs were convicted of espionage, not treason.
ETA: I know this is coming from a technical point of view. In common parlance (with the understanding that it won’t apply in a court), yeah, it is treasonous.
Major Major Major Major
@Baud: …it’s Baud.
Baud
@Major Major Major Major: ?
Adam L Silverman
@Corner Stone: As in down and out. Never mind…
Omnes Omnibus
@Adam L Silverman: I thought you were in Florida?
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Omnes Omnibus: You all right? I saw you wrote “different than” last night and I got worried. I considered that someone might have hacked your nym, but that’s worrisome as well.
Baud
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): Shhh. You want them to strip his bar license.
J R in WV
@Mary:
Where do you buy that kind of thing, oxygen proof packaging, etc?
Did you get prepared freeze-dried meals, or just raw beans and rice? The preped freeze-dried meals are kinda expensive. The seed packages I’ve seen are high dollar too, but probably important, long range.
I don’t see any of it at Kroger’s yet!
Omnes Omnibus
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): Well, there is this.
ETA: As for last night’s error, I’ll slam my hand in a drawer once I am off painkillers. Okay?
Major Major Major Major
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): Omnes is so out of it he even acknowledged cats.
Mnemosyne
@J R in WV:
One of the branch libraries where G works has a seed library and they just discovered that somebody stole a bunch of the seeds — took them out of the packages and put the empty packages back. From the free seed library that would have given them at no charge. WTF?
Omnes Omnibus
@Major Major Major Major: Fuck. I just laughed at that and my ribs hurt.
opiejeanne
@JPL: Thanks. Sorry you can’t be there.
debbie
@Omnes Omnibus:
Did you get in a fight?
Omnes Omnibus
@debbie: See above.
Adam L Silverman
@Mnemosyne: At they gym I workout at someone once took one 25 lbs dumbbell. Just the one. Not the pair. People do strange things.
schrodinger's cat
@Major Major Major Major: He does acknowledge commenters with cat in their name.
El Caganer
@Baud: I agree with Major that McMullin’s taking a pretty strong stand against The Donald. There’s a story over at http://www.attn.com with a bunch of tweets he sent out with suggestions for average citizens about things they could do while under the rule of Trump Rex. Nothing spectacular, mostly common sense, and geared to mostly to people who aren’t very politically involved. Was impressed with his stress that people needed to reach out to all other groups – he sounded more like a Wobblie organizer than a conservative.
Omnes Omnibus
@schrodinger’s cat: Yeah, but you may be dead.
Corner Stone
@Adam L Silverman:East bound and down, loaded up and truckin’
We’re gonna do what they say can’t be done
We’ve got a long way to go, and a short time to get there
I’m east bound, just watch ole bandit run
Major Major Major Major
@Omnes Omnibus: ?
@schrodinger’s cat: true.
Baud
@El Caganer: Fine. I won’t fight it.
debbie
@Omnes Omnibus:
You have my sympathies. I’ve been dealing with asthmatic/allergy coughing for almost two years. Lidocaine patches take the edge off.
bluehill
@tybee: Ugh, as I said, depressing.
Corner Stone
@Omnes Omnibus: Why would one, ummm, wait until *after*?
Omnes Omnibus
@Corner Stone: If I am punishing myself for a grammar error, “after” is the right way to do it.
El Caganer
@Baud: I agree with you that it would have been better for him to support Hillary, but he didn’t and now we are where we are. I suspect he realizes it, too, which is why he’s all ‘come, let us reason together’ now.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Omnes Omnibus: I get it now; sorry, man. Skip the drawer slamming, unless you’re still on the meds. I’ve got a nasty cough but to date no sprains, though my ribs are sore.
I’m listening to Live at the Old Quarter and Rex’s Blues is about to make me cry. There may be wine involved.
germy
When all is dark within the house
Who knows the monster from the mouse?
EZSmirkzz
Tom, lets not get our knickers in a knot too quickly here. Silverman is correct in needing to define our terms, as one cannot tell the difference, at this range, from treason and duped. What we do know is that immigrants and bank robbers go where the money is. Some, or many of our politicians may very well be in it for the graft, as corruption has, and will continue to flow into and through DC just as the Potomac River does. We will have to learn to live with our institutions being somewhat corrupt because some of the individuals in those institutions are corrupted.
We as a people will never resolve that issue so long as conservatives and liberals refuse to talk to one another, and refuse to listen to what other people are saying when we manage to do so anyway. These are not easy times for looking at governance with soft eyes.
While the American Empire does not have the outward appearance of previous empires, it is definitely showing the same internal cracks as those previous to our own. Again we cannot solve a problem until we admit we have one, so I see no point in pursuing this line of discussion at this time, or in these fora.
What we can see clearly however is that the party of small government is pursuing policies of large governance, both in foreign and domestic affairs, many times aided and colluding with the party of we give some of the graft back to the little guys. ( The cynic in me doth digress.)
Since we should be politically correct if you’re a conservative reader, or polite if you’re a liberal reader, let us call corporatism what it is. Most of the issues that divide the American people today are straw men created and disseminated by the corporate media for profit, by the partisan media for egotism, and the nationalists out of hatred. Each of these groups must be addressed in different fashions and methods, none of which are palatable to the American people unless they are forked from the lightening of our side. or which ever boot you happen to be under, left or right. Feel free to chew the gum stuck next to you however, as the afore mentioned will spit more out for latter chewing in the not too distant future.
This being a rather large and complex problem, defining the terms, then the problems, then the solutions, it will be a protracted process. But if the American people, liberal and conservative, wish to make America great again, then first we must make her whole. This I do not believe can be achieved by addressing the symptoms of our disease, but in defining the cure. And that my friends is precisely what the world is watching us for, and we will because, as Hamilton remarked, we are Americans and that is what we do.
(Update: edited for prosetry, because that’s what I do)
Corner Stone
@germy: The mouse always knows.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Omnes Omnibus: We won’t know until we check.
Omnes Omnibus
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): Don’t make me post a link to the The Dutchman.” That one is guaranteed waterworks if wine is involved.
ETA: Oops. Too late.
Yarrow
Another elector files suit.
Adam L Silverman
@Corner Stone: I was always partial to CW McCall. In both original:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3VN54M1OXA
And movie version:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sd5ZLJWQmss
brendancalling
@scottinnj: I’ve been saying that for weeks.
germy
@Yarrow:
Am I missing something? He’s chairman of the county democrats and he’s suing so he doesn’t have to support HRC?
Dems in disarray!
SiubhanDuinne
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q):
I had that a week or two ago. Fine now (fingers crossed) but I honestly thought for a few days that I had cracked a couple of ribs from coughing. Early morning was the worst, when all the post-nasal drip accumulated in the back of the throat, and I’d spend 30-40 minutes hacking up a lung.
Be better soon.
J R in WV
@Omnes Omnibus:
Yeh, but there’s that pesky OR in there. Which to me admits of war on one side of the OR and enemies on the other side of that OR.
Not a lawyer, but worked with lawyers a whole lot, trying to get them to tell me how, in software, to implement a given law or government regulation… talking frustrating!@!
OR is a word that can bear a lot of weight in our language. Stuff on one side of OR can be very different from stuff on the other side of the OR. If it isn’t different, you don’t need an OR, just a comma OR a semi-colon. See how that works? Commas and semi-colons are completely diff.
Omnes Omnibus
@germy: You are missing something. The logic is that, if the requirement to vote for your state’s winner is overturned, electors in states that Trump won with similar laws will be free to vote against Trump.
germy
@Omnes Omnibus: Ah ha! Thank you for clearing that up.
J R in WV
@Mnemosyne:
That is so weird. Like they didn’t know to ask? I dunno, must have voted for Drumpf and now regrets it, is scared and can’t afford to buy seeds, maybe.
Adam L Silverman
@EZSmirkzz: My guess is that if they’ve got kompromat on the GOP, then Senator McConnell is worried about his DD 214. When he joined the Army he was working as a Congressional staffer. He didn’t make it through boot before being separated. His official reason has always been he got injured and was given a non-punitive medical separation. He then went right back to working for the same Congressman. And shortly thereafter his DD 214 disappeared. And has never resurfaced. It has long been rumored as to what happened during boot camp, which I’m not going to repeat here, but having one’s DD 214 disappear for a non-punitive medical separation due to injuries sustained during Initial Military Training seems a bit strange.
So its like no one knows exactly what was taken, but everyone is worried its the worst stuff. And, since its well documented that Russian Intelligence modifies and falsifies documents/information and mixes it in with the factual material, everyone’s paranoia is running in overdrive. So even if a specific GOP leader isn’t actually compromised, because of the kompromat operation, there’s no way for them to really know. Which will, itself, have an effect on their behavior and actions. This is why not releasing is even more powerful a kompromat than releasing. It keeps the tension elevated, it keeps them scared and jumping at shadows. It makes them very, very easy to manipulate.
Yarrow
@germy: Yes, you’re missing something. Read further down. As Omnes Omnibus said, the goal is to get several of these laws overturned – the ones binding the electors to vote for the winner in their state. If California overturns their law then, as the article says, that’s a significant chunk of the total electors. There would be legal precedent to protect electors in other states.
Mnemosyne
@germy:
He probably wants to vote for Bernie.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@SiubhanDuinne: Thanks for your good wishes. I’m so much better – hacking up only the bottom of my throat!
Omnes Omnibus
@J R in WV: Again, as I noted, there is case law.
germy
@Adam L Silverman:
All that comes to mind is what Lenny Bruce did for his discharge.
Adam L Silverman
Nice, shiny new open thread up for anyone that so desires.
Adam L Silverman
@germy: No comment.
J R in WV
@SiubhanDuinne:
I read about people breaking ribs coughing with pertussus, aka whooping cough. I got vaccinated for pertussus, diptheria and tetanus at the health dept last summer. Also for shingles, which my dad had and was very nasty, and for pneumonia, the one that covers more strains of microbes.
It was very professional, interview with RN, three shots. Less stressful than the lineup in boot camp where you get every vaccination known to the military. Which was lots of them!
I did have to pay for the shingles shot, but who cares?
Immanentize
@germy: what better place than California (and the ninth circuit federal) to get a ruling that so called “binding statutes” are unconstitutional
Yarrow
@Adam L Silverman: At some level wouldn’t some of the Republicans realize that it’s not going to get any better for them. Working with the Russians, even if they cave now, isn’t going to make this kompromat go away. The threat will never go away. If they step out of line the threats will intensify. It just takes a basic understanding of authoritarianism to know that not standing up to Russia now isn’t going to make this stuff go away. Can none of them see that?
There is such a short window for these people to speak up. If Trump gets inaugurated all bets are off. Their timid, compromising moves now are not going to save them. Or their families. How can they not see that?
germy
@Immanentize: California is looking better and better.
EZSmirkzz
@Adam L Silverman: Reason would lead us to believe that Russia kompromat on quite a few Americans. Whether McConnel was discharged after a soap party is hardly germane to the discussion, any more than mine, General under Honorable, for drug abuse. We aren’t there now.
Ad hominem is, as you know, a logical fallacy.
germy
@Yarrow:
“A man sees what he wants to see and disregards the rest…”
– Paul Simon
schrodinger's cat
@EZSmirkzz:
Did you just call immigrants, thieves? So according to you, they contribute nothing and they steal.
J R in WV
@Omnes Omnibus:
Yes, that pesky habit of making a mistake, and having to live by it forever.
I thought Bush v Gore did away with that stuff, but I guess it keeps coming back.
;-)
Adam L Silverman
@Yarrow: Senator Graham, who has his own longstanding rumors to deal with (also no comment), is speaking up. Senator McCain seems to be moving as well. And you’ve got, amazingly, former Congressman Joe Walsh speaking up and calling out Republicans and Conservatives in no uncertain terms. The question is how much they can do and how quickly. As I’ve written repeatedly, we are in uncharted territory.
Mnemosyne
@Omnes Omnibus:
@Yarrow:
Okay, I take back my crack about him probably being a Berniebro. Though if he had been from Marin County, I would have maintained by position.
EZSmirkzz
@schrodinger’s cat: No. I didn’t say that. Like I said some people just gotta hear what they want to hear.
J R in WV
@germy:
When I got out of boot camp and sent to Navy school, my roommate in barracks was waiting for a discharge, he and a friend had taken pictures of themselves in a very compromising position and sent it to someone anonymously.
At the time you got good paper while getting out for being gay…
At one time using pot got you a medical discharge.
catclub
@dm:
You know all those laws that say only the Executive can conduct foreign policy, that have been ignored while the GOP sends letters to the Iranians, and are brought up more forcefully when GWbush was president?
They would be brought down on that shadow cabinet like an avalanche.
Yarrow
@Adam L Silverman: Yes, I’ve been linking to them. They are brave. Justin Amash is another one.
I think Republicans who think they can be saved by sucking up to Russia are very, very wrong.
schrodinger's cat
@EZSmirkzz: You equated immigrants to bank robbers, that quote was from your long comment. I read what you wrote.
Jeffro
@Yarrow:
it is – always was? – the one thing that can cut through their cult-like behavior towards Trump and irrational hatred of Clinton/Dems
Jeffro
@El Caganer: He has been increasingly impressive since the election, exponentially so in the past few days.
germy
@Yarrow: Interesting response to what the PEOTUS claims:
EZSmirkzz
@schrodinger’s cat: I didn’t equate immigrants and bank robbers, you did, because you’re looking for an argument not a discussion. I just said immigrants and bank robber go where the money is. The motivation is entirely different. Kind of like you going to work, because that’s where the money is.
germy
@Adam L Silverman: McCain is speaking up, but then earlier today I saw this:
Yarrow
@germy: I saw that earlier! Good for Nancy SMASH!
Adam L Silverman
@germy: Hadn’t seen that comment by Senator McCain. Given that the bad Intel was completely fabricated by the Wolfowitz created at DOD Office of Special Plans, then fed to Judith Miller by Laurie Mylroi, who then reported it in the NY Times, which was then cited by VP Cheney to justify the Bush 43 Administration’s claims and plans, I think Senator McCain is mistaken.
schrodinger's cat
@EZSmirkzz: Its an open season on immigrants now, why should you be left behind. Carry on.
germy
@Adam L Silverman: That scheme reminds me of the old Jimmy Carter speech about police and search warrants. One cop knocks on the door, the other cop runs around to the back of the house and yells “Come in!”
EZSmirkzz
@schrodinger’s cat: Not on your assumptions, I won’t. You owe me an apology.
Adam L Silverman
@germy: Pretty much. Mylroie is a big time conspiracist. From what I’ve been told, she was the biggest Saddam Hussein backer up to the late 80s/early 90s just before Desert Storm/Desert Shield. Then the Iraqi Defense Attache in DC broke off the affair he was having with her and she did a 180 and became Saddam Hussein’s biggest detractor. She’s the origin of the theories that he was behind every anti-American act of terrorism even though there was no evidence to support her conspiracy theories.
PIGL
@Mnemosyne: Human perfidy is equalled only by human stupidity.
CarolPW
@EZSmirkzz:
I found your conflation of immigrants and bank robbers problematic as well; it’s not just schrodinger’s cat who thought it unseemly.
PIGL
@Adam L Silverman: Only 25lbs? Whatta wuss.
Omnes Omnibus
@J R in WV: You want to play with the definition of treason? That won’t come back to bite you in the ass. Ever.
Omnes Omnibus
@EZSmirkzz: It was in-artful at best.
EZSmirkzz
@CarolPW: Well I’ve been having these conversations since Reyes-Tijerena was agitating for Spanish and Mexican land grants in New Mexico. My mother was an immigrant. I don’t have time to work with other peoples assumptions of who I am. The context had nothing to do with immigrants. The topic under discussion had nothing to with immigrants. If it did I would have been distinct in pointing out I was referring to the immigrants in James Town in the 1600’s. It’s an historical fact that immigrants go where the money is.
I would suggest everyone lighten up and unwind a little bit. Quit letting Republicans and conservatives frame the conversation, or I will have to observe that Trumps children voted for Hillary because that’s what Anne Coulter and Lou Dobbs say about children and grandchildren of immigrants, yada yada. Fuck them, fuck that.
Omnes Omnibus
@EZSmirkzz: I would suggest that a number of normally rational commenters saw your comment in a certain way. It might mean that you did not communicate what you wanted to. Or that you did, and people are rejecting your message. Your choice.
EZSmirkzz
@Omnes Omnibus: Life’s like that.
EZSmirkzz
@Omnes Omnibus: Perhaps they are having an abnormal night.
Omnes Omnibus
@EZSmirkzz: Yes, your inability to make a point is due to others having a bad night. That makes a lot of sense.
opiejeanne
@EZSmirkzz: All of them at once?
I’m not the most rational one here and I’m so many generations away from my immigrant past that I’ve completely forgotten where I was going with this, but yeah, I also found your comment a bit problematic, had to chew on it a bit.
I agree with Omnes, it was inelegant.
Ohio Mom
@EZSmirkzz: My people, Eastern European Jews, were inspired in part to come to America because it was said that “the streets were paved with gold” (the other part were the pogroms).
So I got what you said, though the juxtaposition with bank robbers (the old Willie Sutton quote) was unexpected and startling. But being thrown off balance quickly passed for me.
Lizzy L
@EZSmirkzz: I think inartful is quite fair, though I didn’t have a problem, but it took a moment for me to tease your meaning out of it. We’re all a bit touchy these days. You might be too.
patrick II
@Omnes Omnibus:
I don’t believe we have declared war against ISIS, so aiding and abetting them would not be treason?
amk
@EZSmirkzz:
as opposed to ‘sons of the soil’ who just hate money?
EZSmirkjzz
@Ohio Mom: Well I intend on using every literary device at my disposal to prevent any pogroms from coming here again. But then, to some extent, the root of those are just as obvious here if anyone is willing to look. Conservatives aren’t the only ones that need to discover their halos fit a little too tight when worn on Earth.
EZSmirkjzz
@amk: No.
EZSmirkjzz
To whom it may concern, I’ve been commenting at Balloon Juice since 2006. It’s about time I got some moderation.
EZSmirkjzz
@Omnes Omnibus: Yawn.
Sandra L Hanlon
@BillinGlendaleCA: Doesn’t cyberwar count? Declared or not, this is war.
amk
@EZSmirkjzz:
of course, you do realize that those who looted the banks (and your economy) are the ‘native sons’, right?
EZSmirkzz
@amk: Yes and the sky is also blue. I was also linking to Calculated Risks blog in 2006 when he was pointing out the credit bubble and coming collapse. Where were you?
Are you going anywhere with this or are we just running laps?
amk
@EZSmirkzz: Your past ‘record’ here has got nothing to do with your current stupidity. America is a nation of immigrants, live with that.
EZSmirkzz
@amk: As I stated just a few minutes ago, my mother is an immigrant, so quit being a bone head and learn how to read.
You may find this site interesting. Liberalism Resurgent
EBT
@EZSmirkzz: You phrased something in a way that could be read to be kinda shitty. When confronted by this you decided to attack the other person. When several other people also chime in and say that the sentence in question could have been clearer you double down? Pick a better hill to die on, one that doesn’t sound so shitty.
Ryan
But the GOP has been throwing the best interests of the country under the bus in their quest for power for my entire life. What’s new?
Mary in Wonderlland
@Mary: “If we ever get another Democrat in the White House”
I have an idea that if we ever have a free election after the Trump/Pence regime, a democrat will win by a landslide, even among these suddenly “commie loving” comrades.