The long, gory details on how Russia helped to elect the Trump duma with an assist from clueless and over their head DNC employees (whose names I’ve written down and put in my MARK PENN FAIL TRAIN FILE because they should never fucking work for a Democratic candidate again) and a willing media. Meanwhile, at the Intercept, they’re still not convinced Russia did this and want a document dump so Russia and Trump can figure out how the intelligence services know what they know and/or fuck up any attempt at any future legal action and subsequent prosecution. And if you point this out, I’m sure you hate freedom.
And before you ask, yes, there is a fundamental fucking difference between whistleblowers leaking evidence of wrongdoing on the part of the American government and a foreign power engaging in cyber warfare and interfering in American elections, even though some people can’t seem to figure that out.
J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
Shanna, they bought their tickets…they knew what they were getting into. I say let them crash!
Major Major Major Major
Ooh, your buddy Greenwald’s gonna be so mad you called him out.
Elizabelle
Yup. Fuck the fucking New York Times.
I wonder if this will give any reformers there ammo to drain the swamp. Dean Baquet, the whole lot of them. Amy Chozick, Patrick Healey, their moron national desk politics editor, their moron ombudsVillager. Clean them gone.
Of course, the publisher may be the problem. But they made one wish for the good old days of Judith Miller.
Yarrow
Someone on the previous thread mentioned that Luke Russert of all people was tweeting about this today. Go check it out. A few samples:
You can click on any of those to read the whole tweet storm.
Cacti
@Major Major Major Major:
Maybe his holiness will grace us mere mortals with another visit.
Yarrow
@Elizabelle: The New York Times spoke admiringly of Hitler. Nothing has changed since that time. Why would anyone think they’d change now.
J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
@Yarrow:
Wow. If Luke Russert gets it…
We are so doomed.
schrodinger's cat
@Elizabelle: You mean Vichy Times on the Hudson?
Major Major Major Major
@Cacti: a man can dream.
slag
I’m just going to say it. America sucks in a crisis. How we managed to see our way to electing Barack Obama (twice) is, if not a total mystery, obviously an aberration. A bizarre confluence of events—nothing more. Which is a huge bummer because it would have been nice to actually believe that we were better than we are.
Poopyman
The stock market closed today with the Dow 89 points shy of 20,000.
Let that sink in a moment.
There’s a certain number of people feeling “irrationally exuberant”, imo, anticipating the unrestrained capitalism to come.
Man, when the crash comes, it’s gonna be a hard fall.
Poopyman
@slag: We are what we are, but America can – and has – on occasion acted better than we are.
This is the rebound, past normal to the other extreme.
Major Major Major Major
@Poopyman: of course they’re excited. This is going to be a short and medium term bonanza with a long term collapse that will make 2008 look like, I don’t know, 2010.
rp
Are you putting Snowden in the former category? Because given Snowden’s location and Greenwald’s efforts to spin this, I’m not sure that’s justified at this point.
danielx
Donald Trump = business genius
Kanye West = musical genius
Media = ?
Fill in the blank.
Edit: Donald Trump has clearly spent some time playing the shell game and three card monte. Pay no attention to that hand over there, look at this bright shiny object!
Mnemosyne
A few days ago, some kind person posted this 2012 link to Arms Control Wonk explaining why Ed Snowden’s story perfectly fits with him being a Russian operative.
At this point, my only question about Glenn Greenwald is whether he’s a Russian dupe or is actually being paid by them. He sure was eager to give their paid operative a cover story and an “in” with the American left.
Poopyman
The WaPo tries out their snark:
Elizabelle
@Poopyman: I know. Welcome to the Wild, Wild West.
The Moar You Know
@Poopyman: Wife and I both cashed out our entire portfolios. We’re not talking millions or even tens of thousands, but dammit, I’m not losing that money. That crash is going to come sooner than later, and it’s gonna get more than a little bloody with this much sucker’s money on the table.
Elizabelle
@Major Major Major Major:
What does that mean?
Anonymous At Work
@Major Major Major Major: It was Jeremy Scahill, which is bizarre. This has “GG going nutso” written all over it but wasn’t. Scahill isn’t normally like this, either.
Chris
@slag:
America often sucks in a crisis, but just as often, the crisis is what it takes to slap it into finally reacting adequately to a problem. Civil War, Great Depression, Cuban missile crisis – the Great Recession was a smaller example of same. (Hence Churchill’s saying that you can always count on Americans to do the right thing, after they’ve bloody well tried everything else!)
One can hope that the nation eventually rises to the occasion for the crisis that a Trump presidency is most definitely going to be. I’m not optimistic, though: I think this is one time Churchill’s saying won’t save us.
MomSense
@Mnemosyne:
I think the post is from 2014 but that would be me that reposted it again the other day because I’m bitchy and hold a grudge.
cmorenc
Meanwhile, CNN has published an opinion piece by Timothy Stanley of Britain’s Daily Telegraph entitled: Trump’s shockingly honest approach to Putin that is weapons-grade stupid and naive. That is, unless Stanley is acting as yet another covert Russian agent of disinformation. To give you a flavor of just how astoundingly (stupid and naive) or (work of Russian-planted disinformation) Stanley’s piece is (take your pick), here’s an excerpt from one of the opening paragraphs:
…and it gets worse from there.
WTF, CNN? In order to be “fair and balanced” you’re offsetting intelligent, well-informed pieces with pieces of stupidity and Russian disinformation?
gogol's wife
@Chris:
If I pray for anything, it’s that we rise to this occasion. I do feel a different energy — people are ready for resistance. (But maybe that’s just in my own little “bubble”.)
Belafon
@Chris: We have to remember that a majority of the voters selected Clinton. I think these people, and additional people are going to resist more than you think.
Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class
@Poopyman:
The bubble will inflate rapidly, as will the management fees on the funds – and the gains will mask the extent of the rakeoff.
When the bubble pops, the results will be calamitous, with money markets breaking the buck and all the misery THAT entails.
Taylor
Fucking NYT makes sure to put DNC incompetence and White House passivity up front, and bury their own culpability way down in the article.
At this point, all we’re seeing is CYA from everyone, including the fucking NYT, who are shocked, shocked that responsible media would take the Russian bait.
Major Major Major Major
@Elizabelle: it will make a huge massive world-eating crash look like a stagnant recovery by contrast.
@MomSense: Fuck Snowden.
Yarrow
@The Moar You Know: Any sense if the dollar is going to hold its value? Or retain its role as the world’s reserve currency? I’m highly skeptical, especially given Trump’s idea of not making good on our bonds. Because he’s such a great negotiator.
Botsplainer, Cryptofascist Tool of the Oppressor Class
@Major Major Major Major:
Short term bonanza, with the Fed jacking the fuck out of interest rates to cover for the “inflation”.
Gas goes to $3.40 or so by August, and over $4.00 by February 2018, mainly due to an increase in the conflict level in the Middle East that jeopardizes oil supplies and fucks with pricing, much to the benefit of ExxonMobile and other energy players (Tillerson won’t be sobbing).
Add in a South China Sea conflict (which kills and maims a lot of sailors) and an ill-fated adventure in Iran, and howling mobs may be ready to drag Twitler out of Trump Tower by his wingtips in order to face some street justice.
Lavocat
Jesus Christ, even Cole has now gone and lost his shit.
Repeat after me: “SHOW ME THE EVIDENCE!!!!!!!!!”
Until the U.S. government can actually provide proof of these outrageous allegations, that is all they are and all they ever will be – allegations.
I expected a helluva lot more from you, Cole. I guess we’re now living in a post-evidence world as well.
Taylor
@cmorenc: From Yes Prime Minister:
Chris
@Belafon:
It’s the shortage of tools for resistance that concerns me, and the contemporary GOP’s willingness to do whatever it takes to hold onto those it has.
Elizabelle
@The Moar You Know: I’m wondering if small investors, like you and myself, will be acting a lot differently than the big boys.
I would not trust those amoral cowboys with my money. At all.
Does anyone know of some good funds that are well run, investing in companies that are not predators? Maybe they used to be called “socially responsible” funds.
NR
Or, you know, for this reason:
You’d think that you guys would have learned by now that government by leaked information is a terrible idea.
And at the end of the article, they even say this:
But, you know, Glenn Greenwald said some mean things about Obama, so that means they’re all part of the Russian conspiracy or something.
Chris
@Taylor:
Nowadays, the politics of those two groups has inverted completely…
Major Major Major Major
Hey look, trolls. Shocker of the century.
gogol's wife
@Lavocat:
Privet, kak dela?
Jeffro
@Yarrow: thank you, thank you ?
eldorado
@NR: http://observer.com/2016/10/bloomberg-crowdstrike-fidelis-dnc-hack/
the security community was well aware and publishing reports about this for some time. maybe greenwald could you know, stop being a fucking hack and ask them.
Chris
@Major Major Major Major:
They’re still around? You mean we haven’t blacklisted them yet? Hey, what kind of McCarthyism is this, anyway?
Poopyman
@Chris: The weaponization of local PDs, to include sigint and drones, is what’s going to bother me the most.
Ksmiami
@Elizabelle: just vanguard your stuff. Indexing is cheap and safer esp if you allocate across asset classes. Read some interviews with jack bogle to sooth your jitters. Remember for every 1 percent fee, the market has to go up 2 percent for you to come out ahead.
FlipYrWhig
@eldorado: No, see, to prove that you’re on “the left” you have to defend Russia, because it’s still 1986 and the main problem is that REAL communism has never been tried.
Major Major Major Major
@Chris: This is the lousiest McCarthyism I’ve ever seen, to be honest. People are allowed to express dissenting opinions, rudely even, and the only price they pay is me ignoring them and other people cussing at them. And we don’t even track them down and force people to divest in their businesses!
Belafon
@Chris: Because Republicans have the big tools right now, it’s not going to be easy. We’ve entered a phase where we’re not going to be able to hope someone else will take care of it. It’s up to us to act. Go find some like minded people to do some work with, like your local Democratic party.
Jeffro
@Jeffro: in all seriousness, Joy Reid also has a good (meaning horrifying but insightful) Tweet-thread going…apparently ol Newt cut loose a bit at Heritage today and noted that the whole goal here is “to take us back to pre-FDR days”
Because the richest country in the world can’t POSSIBLY afford a basic safety net, right? The Kochs and Mercers can’t be expected to support that crap, sheesh!
Back to the 20’s y’all …unbelievable
eldorado
@FlipYrWhig: this explains the cluster that nakedcapitalism has become, which is a real loss, as their economic posts were often very interesting.
Major Major Major Major
@eldorado: They’re listed on PropOrNot’s list of Russian propagandists/useful idiots, a list that’s been slagged repeatedly and polemically by The Intercept.
Yarrow
@Jeffro: You’re not kidding.
That will also include bank de-regulation. Goodbye FDIC. No safe place to keep your money except perhaps under your mattress. Pay attention, people! Plan accordingly! They are telling us what they are going to do.
Schlemazel
@J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford:
How many people are going to get that reference? Thanks for the laugh, and don’t call me Shirley!
EZSmirkzz
Hey John, thought about linking these in Adam’s thread but then given personal relationships and all that gooey stuff I didn’t, but from TTG over at SST, we get a couple of links to War on the Rocks,
The gist of my response to you is the Russian effort to destabilize Americans trust in our institutions and democracy. While that assertion tends to make Republicans useful idiots, I suppose we should be magnanimous and label them as innocent bystanders.
I don’t often recommend things to you to read, but these two are fastball right down the middle of the plate to what you have posted. I think you’ll find the two from WotR to be quite informative, and eye opening. Happy bear hunting!
schrodinger's cat
@eldorado: Their economic posts are full of bs that’s why I could never take them seriously.
Corner Stone
@Major Major Major Major: That’s bullshit! And fuck you!
NR
@eldorado: “The security community” is not the same thing as United States intelligence agencies.
Poopyman
A surprising top story on the CNN website. Surprising only in that it’s the top story on the CNN website:
An article rich in backpfeifengesicht.
Botsplainer
@NR:
Maybe Obama can drone Griftwald on the way out the door. It gives me joy to think of the camera image of Greenwald running and screaming just before getting ripped apart by the explosion.
Assange, Sirota and Scahill can get one, too.
Davis X. Machina
@FlipYrWhig: The real-left touchstone I like is the argument that we have to suffer through eight years of Trump, and whatever GOP horrors is are line after his impeachment/stroke, because we used to install dictators and rig elections.
It’s our penance. All those deportees. and people dying after losing their insurance, and the victims of hate crimes — sorry. It’s got to be this way because Mossadegh Diem Allende.
Helen
Love Actually is coming on here. Hey Ommes, The Wisconsin scene. Soon.
Schlemazel
@Poopyman:
The trick for those of us who have to survive on our 401k is when to get the fuck out.
trollhattan
@Yarrow:
Didn’t take the threat of Trump as president seriously and look at us now. I’m not making the same mistake on the Trumpenbubble.
Yarrow
@Helen: Hugh Grant’s dancing through No. 10 cracks me up every time. And Emma Thompson…sigh. Breaks my heart.
Yarrow
@trollhattan: I took him seriously and I take this seriously. I’m just not sure what to do. Cash out of the stock market and keep everything in cash? Where? In banks that will have runs on them and you’ll lose everything? In some sort of funds? Overseas? Gold? China? Under the mattress?
JPL
@Helen: That’s one of my favorite scenes. The day after the Russians helped Trump win the election, I watched it.
Botsplainer
@Jeffro:
Do you not feel saddened when you see a Captain of Inheritance with a $5000 escort in his lap getting his cigars lit with mere $100 bills, as opposed to getting them lit with $10,000 bills?
What kind of monster are you?
Corner Stone
@Davis X. Machina: Allende was kinda bullshit, tbh.
Corner Stone
@Botsplainer:
***shutters***
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
Highlights, the kids magazine, is being targeted by the (not really) One Million Moms for including same-sex families. Sending a thank-you email would be nice. Subscriptions, of course, make great gifts. :)
Schlemazel
@Lavocat:
I happen to know a bit about the NSA and what they are capable as well has how evidence of hacking is collected. If the NSA says, as they were back in October, that the Russians hacked both the DNC and RNC I will accept that as highly reliable as they had no reason to lie & there is no evidence (as there was with the WMD bullshit) of anyone else being responsible. That they are not willing to let the agents of chaos see how they know is not going to affect my opinion a bit. Those bastards already have too much inside info
trollhattan
California does not love Vlad. The certified results are as follows.
Hillary Clinton
8,753,788
62.2%
Donald J. Trump
4,483,810
31.8%
That’s a 4.3 million vote whoppin’. Also, too, fuck you Assangewald.
Major Major Major Major
@Davis X. Machina: As I’ve been saying, Republicans didn’t come up with “liberals hate America!” entirely out of whole cloth.
Schlemazel
@NR:
Because GG is so pure & clean and so secure there is no way, no way at all, that the intel he gets could possibly make it into the hands of the Russians
No thanks.
sunny raines
Dear Media Employees, Why Did You Do It?
http://www.cadaqu.com/media-why-did-you-do-it
SatanicPanic
@The Moar You Know: What makes you think cash will be useful? I suspect we’ll be carting it around in wheelbarrows soon enough.
Chris
@Davis X. Machina:
I know it seems like a bitter pill to swallow, but you’ve got to think of the greater good. Washington used to be the kind of place that would fight wars for
oilno-bid contracts, or use the intelligence community to overthrow democracies and install friendly dictators that would let our corporations exploit their resources unhindered. Once Trump and the GOP complete its descent into a Russian-style free-for-all oligarchy, surely that’ll never happen again, and all the peoples of the developing world will be free of our rapacious ways.trollhattan
@Yarrow:
Simple CD at the bank is covered under FDIC.
“The standard deposit insurance coverage limit is $250,000 per depositor, per FDIC-insured bank, per ownership category.”
I’m thinking that and bond funds, but want to hear from bond experts first on that second bit.
rikyrah
@Yarrow:
Uh huh
uh huh
Helen
@Yarrow: @JPL: I love this movie. I waited a few yrs to watch it cuz I don’t do “girl” movies. I LOVE IT.
Yarrow
@trollhattan: It’s covered by FDIC for now. One of Trump’s economic people has specifically stated they want to repeal FDIC.
Davis X. Machina
@Major Major Major Major: The working class has no fatherland, comrade.
eldorado
@schrodinger’s cat: most economic posts are -)
NR
@Botsplainer: Since you think that people who disagree with you politically should be brutally murdered, I would suggest that Russia might be a better country for you to live in.
The Moar You Know
@Yarrow: I have no idea. I’m not an economist and stayed away (somewhat to my regret) from classes on such. All I know is a scam when I see one and the current stock market run-up is a scam.
I recommend Calculated Risk (still on the blogroll) and Bonddad (who I think never was) if you want to read expert opining on the subject.
Yarrow
@Helen: I love it too. I don’t care what anyone else thinks or says. Watch it every Christmas. I love all the stories. The Colin Firth one cracks me up – especially the mimicking of the Mr. Darcy role. I don’t care if it makes me a sap or means I have poor taste in movies. Go to hell anyone who wants to tell me that. I love it.
eldorado
@NR: well gosh, if only there was some information about what the intelligence agencies of the united states had to say about this. alas, we will never know…
Major Major Major Major
Reasonable Republican™ Kasich vetoes heartbeat bill, signs 20-week abortion ban.
trollhattan
@Yarrow:
I don’t doubt they’d like to but seems like a big stretch. Put another way–if they actually dismantle SS, Medicare, FDIC and the rest I’m headed north and not stopping until the cops are dressed in red and riding ponies.
raven
@Yarrow: Suck ass fucking movie.
Archon
Why is it so hard for some to believe that Russia tried to get Trump elected? Why wouldn’t they? Trump ran basically on the idea we should be an ally to Russia and not interfere in their spheres of influence. Considering that it would have been a dereliction of duty by the Russians to not help Trump get elected.
The only thing that probably surprises Russia was how easily manipulated the American electorate is and how many useful idiots there are on both the left and right in America.
Mnemosyne
@Lavocat:
A guy who made a $500 billion oil deal with Russia is our prospective Secretary of State and you think that’s a coincidence?
Every person in this election including Bernie Sanders had ties to Russia and you still think it was a coincidence?
Every person being proposed for Trump’s cabinet has ties to Russia and you STILL think it’s all a coincidence?
Just out of curiosity, is there any level of proof short of a press conference by Putin publicly announcing that, yes, he just took control of our country that will convince you that what happened actually happened?
Schlemazel
@Yarrow:
David Stockman, St Reagan’s first budget director, wrote a bootk about his experience. He was stunned to find the the beloved one & the people he brought with him never for a second believed tax cuts would pay for themselves or that trickle-down would work. They were very clear in their intent, it was to destroy the Federal government, to bankrupt it so it should never again do anything other than support an army. They are so close now they can taste it
raven
@The Moar You Know: Fuck all that, just FREAK OUT!~!!!
Mnemosyne
@NR:
You still think that electing a president based on leaked information was a great idea, so …
Major Major Major Major
@raven: Oh, let people enjoy things.
tobie
@Davis X. Machina:
Wasn’t this a line in Aki Kaurismaki’s I hired a contract killer? Great movie.
Yarrow
@The Moar You Know: Thanks for the reminder of Bonddad, who I used to read but kind of fell out of the habit, and Calculated Risk. The thing is, Trump’s “election” is so unprecedented I’m not sure any of the experts know what to expect. People can guess, but given the stated desire to destroy the New Deal and social safety net and Trump’s ability to trigger stock swings with a tweet, and possibly start WWIII by the same means because someone ticked him off…well, it seems like all bets are off. Impossible to say how this is going to play out.
Chris
@Archon:
Seriously. The guy has been financing far right movements all over the West for years now, and Trump offers him a unique opportunity to put NATO under enough strain to, hopefully, crack it like an egg. If people want to say that Russian interference was never significant enough to swing the election and that it was primarily due to domestic factors, that’s completely reasonable. But that Putin would at least try to do whatever he could to help Trump win is more than plausible.
Yarrow
@raven: Heh. Fuck you too. And LBJ, of course.
Schlemazel
@Mnemosyne:
The more important question to ask is, “are you stupid or paid in Rubles?”
SatanicPanic
@Mnemosyne: at this point my question to everyone on the left who is saying “this is McCarthyism” should explain why it matters. Seriously, who does it hurt to use Russia as a punching bag?
raven
@Yarrow: That’s the spirit, show some spine!!
The Moar You Know
@NR: And there is NO WAY that you’re going to end up with two 7.62 Tokarev slugs in your brain stem by doing so. Just send that shit right over!
Christ, that is truly an offer only an idiot would accept.
PIGL
@Davis X. Machina: oh stinky jock ballz! The leftist argument is that, because of America’s sordid history, there are no grounds for moral outrage directed at the Russians. All the moral outrage in the world should be directed at your failure of counter intelligence, at the Republicans as their witting accomplices and at Trump and his corrupt running dogs.
Helen
@raven: Really? Shouldn’t you be screaming in your Vietnam War yard? REALY DUDE. MELLOW OUT.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Yarrow: at the gym yesterday, where CNBC was of course on the TV (at least it’s not Fox) they had a chyron about the TRUMP RALLY. I’m a buy-and-hold guy, rode out the whole crash, but that made me really fucking nervous
ThresherK
@Davis X. Machina: Oh, Sweet Babby Cheeses I hate those “citizen of the world” Americans who think they fucking discovered the CIA and United Fruit (for one example) and that the US should have a stint of Donald Trump over HIllary Clinton just because of that.
They can’t imagine any other liberals who have banging that drum against intervention, and also voted for Hillary.
Grung_e_Gene
@Lavocat: Oh boo-hoo. There are legal standards and then there are political realities. There is no reason not to engahe in political brinksmanship against the Rape-publican Party and their neo-nazi conservatives.
azlib
@Poopyman:
The market seems to be overreacting as usual. I wonder if the traders have priced in the Fed reaction which will be higher interest rates if the economy overheats.
Chris
@ThresherK:
Yarp.
Major Major Major Major
@azlib: Yellen’s term is up in a little over a year; don’t be so sure she won’t be replaced with a hack.
raven
@Helen: The movie sucked, dumb plot and silly acting. You chill the fuck out.
And what the fuck is a Vietnam War yard??
Yarrow
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I was in the car this morning and happened to hear a bit of the Diane Rehm show. Apparently the topic was fascism. She had several guests who seemed very knowledgeable about it. One of them was a professor somewhere and seemed to be an expert, maybe wrote a book, on fascism. He outlined conditions that happened in the 1930’s that led to Hitler and things that happen in fascist societies. The rallies and repetitive chants (“Build the wall!” “Lock her up!”) are one of those things. He was really calm in going through the list. So many of them are happening here. It was pretty scary. The part I hear was good. Might go listen to the whole thing.
Kristin D
@trollhattan: I was told those votes don’t count. Coastal liberal elites and all.
Yarrow
@raven: The movie is awesome, with lots of good acting, interesting overlapping plot lines, great music, and is lots of fun.
trollhattan
@Kristin D: Right? Will note seeing a hellova lot more “Trump!” bumper stickers since Nov 9 than before. Poor oppressed Californians now comfortable saying, “Nya-nya-nya-nya-nya.”
Helen
@raven: The Vietnam War yard is what you know. When you were a drunk and drug addict. Talk about that. Really. You get so stupid about stupid things. Movies??? That’s where you’re gonna judge other people?
raven
Now Paris, je t’aime, that’s a movie.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@raven: Margo Martindale is fucking amazing in that movie. She should’ve had a better arrondissement.
Botsplainer
@azlib:
@Major Major Major Major:
For over a year, Twitler assured us that the economy was lousy.
80% chance says Yellen is replaced by an inflation fighting gold bug with a website selling gold certificates as a hedge against economic collapse….
raven
@Helen: How bout this, just go fuck yourself. Everyone is falling all over themselves about a movie I, and plenty of other people, thought was awful. I expressed my opinion.When did I judge anyone? You don’t like my opinion and I don’t give one damn.
danielx
@Yarrow:
One can imagine Jim DeMint: goddamnit Newt, can’t you keep your mouth shut? You’re as bad as that idiot Trump!
Chris
@Yarrow:
I read Paxton’s “An Anatomy of Fascism” during Obama’s first term, partly prompted by the rise of the teabaggers. It’s very good at explaining the rise of fascism and especially where it fits in relation to a political spectrum of the kind we’re used to thinking about.
Much of what he was explaining resonated tragically well. Governmental paralysis caused in part by the fact that a traditionally dominant right wing refused to accept a growing left wing as a legitimate governing partner. “Uneasy but effective” collaboration between the traditional elites and a rising nationalist mass movement. A narrative obsessed with decline and victimization. The relatively politically incoherent nature of the movement which didn’t have the kind of unifying body of doctrine like conservatism, liberalism, or socialism, and was more of a cry of rage. Etc.
EBT
@Mnemosyne: Remember, NR voted for deadbeat donnie, there isn’t a reason to engage it at all.
Yarrow
@raven: FWIW, I didn’t take it personally. I know a lot of people don’t like “Love, Actually.” I happen to love it. I also like a wide variety of other films. I don’t know if it falls in the category of guilty pleasure, but it’s one I love and enjoy watching every year.
raven
@Yarrow: That’s because it wasn’t personal and you’ve got the sense to know that. There was nothing in my comments that addressed any individual and if some bimbo wants to get personal I’m more than happy to oblige.
Yarrow
@Chris: Sounds scarily familiar at the moment.
Lavocat
@Schlemazel: You, sir, are insane. Your logic is such that we can all be indicted by secret courts without anyone showing us any proof at all – since doing so might jeopardize the system presuming you guilty before trying to prove yourself innocent. No, this is NOT how Anglo-American jurisprudence works; you’ve got it precisely backwards. If there is any proof of this nonsense, then the person(s) possessing said proof has a duty to lay it bare before the American public – or shut the fuck up. This is McCarthyism taken to it’s outrageous, Orwellian extreme. I expected more from demoralized Democrats – even in defeat. Just fucking sad.
Lavocat
@gogol’s wife: Que?
JPL
@raven: Wow..
Major Major Major Major
@Lavocat: I didn’t realize that Balloon-Juice was a secret court or, indeed, even part of Anglo-American jurisprudence. You learn something new every day!
NR
@EBT: I voted for Hillary. Stop lying.
Bobby D
Lavocat: Totally clueless. You don’t parade around the forensic evidence when it could compromise the assets or methods used to acquire said evidence.
NR
@Mnemosyne:
Saying Bernie Sanders has “ties to Russia” because his campaign manager worked in the Ukraine seven years ago is fucking Looney Tunes.
Hey, wait. Since nobody did more to get Donald Trump elected than Hillary Clinton, that means…. Oh my god! She’s working for Putin too!!!!!!!1111one1
raven
@JPL: You tell me
Lavocat
@Mnemosyne: I love how you go waaaaaaay out of your way to miss the point: there is ZERO evidence of this. Period. End of story. I never asked for anything but proof and you somehow think only a press conference by Putin will do? Seriously? Democrats in defeat sound a helluva lot more like Republicans in defeat to me.
danielx
@Lavocat:
Well, let’s see:
“There shouldn’t be any doubt in anybody’s mind,” Adm. Michael S. Rogers, the director of the National Security Agency and commander of United States Cyber Command said at a postelection conference. “This was not something that was done casually, this was not something that was done by chance, this was not a target that was selected purely arbitrarily,” he said. “This was a conscious effort by a nation-state to attempt to achieve a specific effect.”
What the fuck do you want, an affidavit signed in blood from Vlad his very own self?
Major Major Major Major
@NR:
Man, I peek under the hood of the troll filter for one second to make sure I should still have you blocked…
Lavocat
@Grung_e_Gene: When the truth becomes just another tool to twist to your liking, yeah, that’s a big difference. Show me the evidence. If there’s so much evidence out there, this should not be a problem in the slightest. Show me the evidence.
Mnemosyne
@NR:
He didn’t just “work” in Ukraine. He worked for Putin in Ukraine to get Putin’s puppet Yankuyovich elected. And his direct boss was Paul Manafort, the campaign manager that Trump was forced to “fire” when his ongoing ties to Russia were exposed, but who it turns out has been living in Trump Tower ever since.
But, hey, I’m sure that’s all just another totally weird and unrelated coincidence, right? Weird how every one of these singular and unrelated coincidences trace back to a single country.
But I’m sure you’re right. Nothing to see here, comrade.
Lavocat
@Major Major Major Major: I didn’t either. Show me the evidence.
Lavocat
@Bobby D: Totally in-American. You don’t smear people with baseless claims unless you have the evidence on them dead-to-rights. You’d make Joe McCarthy proud.
mai naem mobile
@Yarrow: I was one of the people who used to make fun of Luke Russert but he really grew in that job. I’ve never watched a lot of early afternoon stuff on MSNBC(not watchung much MSNBC at all right now) so I would only see his stuff once in a while and I noticed his growth. I am no Tim Russert worshipper but I guess some of the dinner table talk must have seeped in.
Major Major Major Major
@Lavocat: Then why are you acting like this is a courtroom?
Lavocat
@danielx: I happen to do this for a living. And all that this man is saying is fucking HEARSAY. SHOW. ME. THE. FUCKING. EVIDENCE. OR. STFU!
Mnemosyne
@Lavocat:
Zero evidence?
I’m also trying to figure out what you think Russia has to do with “Anglo-American jurisprudence.” You realize that even if the US could prove that Russia meddled, there’s no recourse under American law, right? US law doesn’t apply to Russia. They have their own system of law, and it ain’t “Anglo-American.”
Major Major Major Major
@Lavocat: You should call the CIA, NSA, etc. and ask them to show you their evidence that they’re only sharing with senators and other folks who have clearance, because I’ll bet you nobody here has the actual evidence.
You’re being annoying. Thanks for the reminder that I have better things to do with my day than comment here.
@Mnemosyne: OH COME ON THAT’S HEARSAY I REQUIRE THE ACTUAL ELECTRONS THAT WENT THROUGH THE ACTUAL CABLES THE VERY FIRST TIME THESE SO-CALLED ‘HACKS’ OCCURRED OR STFU
Lavocat
@Major Major Major Major: Because the media is there for a reason: to hold those in power to account. If someone in power says a thing happened, then they need to prove it or be tarred as liars. It’s called the court of public opinion. Again: SHOW ME THE EVIDENCE!
mai naem mobile
@Major Major Major Major: depends if Lumpy makes it through the first year without being impeached.
goblue72
@Mnemosyne:
You’re insane.
Lavocat
@Mnemosyne: Again, you purposely miss the point: SHOW ME THE EVIDENCE. Everything else can be dealt with as soon as you show me the evidence. How convenient that the government can merely presume the existence of a key matter – that has yet to be proven – so it can jump to all sorts of conclusions.
Major Major Major Major
@mai naem mobile: Pence is a goldbug.
Mnemosyne
@Lavocat:
What evidence are you looking for? You refuse to accept the testimony of experts who have actually examined the hacked emails and found evidence that they were hacked by Russia. Whose testimony are you waiting for?
Bobby D
@Lavocat: Who says they are “baseless” besides your dumb ass, who can’t seem to understand that intelligence assets must be protected and that our elected officials of BOTH PARTIES in the intel apparatus have clearances and can see that info/evidence?
Purposefully stupid = nice trolling, comrade.
goblue72
@Mnemosyne: My candidate had the election handed to her on a golden platter and she still managed to completely shit the bed. Ergo, everyone else except my candidate is a Manchurian mole.
Yarrow
@mai naem mobile: I liked his statement when he quit. He said he stepped into the job after his dad died (I know, obligatory nepotism comment) but that he hadn’t really figured out who he was. So he quit so that he could go learn more about himself. Or words to that effect. He’s lucky by birth, but he also seems to recognize that he has more to learn.
Lavocat
@Major Major Major Major: No, the papers of record should actually be doing their damned job and demanding this of government officials – instead of merely accepting their word for it. Imagine how earth-shattering this would be! The first time that the Russians ever interfered in an American presidential election and determined the outcome. And – strangely enough – there’s not a shred of evidence to back it up other than spooks playing cloak and dagger asking us to take their word for it.
I have to admit that I not only love the irony but the utter lack of self-awareness of most of the American public: the same people who are telling us to “trust us, it happened” are the very same people who have been doing this to other countries for the last 70 years.
Major Major Major Major
@Lavocat:
Oh, you’re one of those.
Bye.
sigaba
@Lavocat:
I’m willing to take the word of a senator over an Internet commenter. Even McConnell accepts that the Russians interfered with our election, he just doesn’t seem to think anything should be done about it. I appreciate skepticism of government claims but the Russians have all but conceded they fed Wikileaks information and maintained direct contact with Trump operatives.
Lavocat
@Bobby D: Ah, a troglodyte at last. That didn’t take long. I stated that I wanted evidence of these allegations. I didn’t state that the allegations were baseless. We can only determine whether or not the allegations are baseless once the evidence has been produced. Cart before the horse and all that, comrade.
NR
@goblue72: Mnemosyne apparently thinks that if you work on contract for someone, that automatically means that you are their sleeper agent for the rest of your life, no matter how much time has passed since you last worked for them. And it also means that if you then work for someone else, your boss is somehow “tied” to your old boss, even if they’ve never even met.
That’s like a half step away from alien mind control rays. Better invest in some tinfoil.
gene108
@Lavocat:
Dude, we’re folks on a blog. Unless you have super-duper top-secret security clearance, you aren’t getting any more info than we are.
Draw your own conclusions, whatever those maybe.
The rest of see a pattern of interference and then have it backed up by the government folks.
I’m not sure what we have to gain by the security apparatus of our government planting a false flag operation pinning these leaks on Russia…I really am drawing a blank…
As you do not trust the news sources presented, what is your conclusion as to why the DNC e-mails, ,John Podesta’s e-mails, etc. were hacked and leaked at key points in the campaign season?
Lavocat
@sigaba: Again: if this is so fucking obvious, then there should be reams and reams of evidence of it. Yet, crickets. Show me the evidence.
Lavocat
@gene108: The point being: there is no evidence of any of this – all just hot air. Show me the evidence.
Major Major Major Major
This isn’t even entertaining trolling.
Temporarily Max McGee (Until Death!)
@Lavocat:
And the radical left has gone full Reagan….
sigaba
@Lavocat: I don’t understand why you require such a high standard of evidence. Nobody here is trying to indict Russia, Russia is not on trial.
The short answer is I don’t have the evidence, we rely on our public officials to make these determinations for us. I’m satisfied with what I’ve heard that Obama and the people he’s working with are acting in good faith and are describing real things, particularly given everything that’s happened in the last year. No one is calling for military reprisal and I see nothing Barack Obama has to gain by making this claim. Do you know something I don’t?
(If the thing you know is: Government always lies until proven truthful you may find the exit. I won’t debate that.)
Helen
@raven: Oh Bimbo. Really?
japa21
@NR: And I remember when you claimed that being paid to give a speech meant you were beholden to them for the rest of your life.
Helen
@raven: Happy I am paying for you goddam healthcare. Even tough you assholes LOST THAT FUCKING WAR.
BIMBO
raven
@Helen: You want to inslut me about my service and call me a drug addict and alcoholic, it’s a good thing you are on a blog. Let me tell you something. There are people who post here every day who I don’t like. You know what I do, I don’t engage them. I don’t know what your problem is with me and I don’t care but don’t fuck with me. You are way out of your depth.
raven
@Helen: Bimbo was the nicest thing I could think of. I work every fucking day, you don’t pay shit for me you idiot.
Mnemosyne
@goblue72:
Really, going up against unprecedented foreign meddling plus Republican voter suppression was “a golden platter”?
Face it: your much-vaunted white working class voters were pissed that a mere woman thought she should be the boss of them, so they voted to take that uppity bitch down, along with the niggers and spics who supported her.
The most important thing to them was that Donald Trump had a peni$ and Hillary didn’t.
(Edited to fix FY autocorrect — “you” vs “your.”)
Helen
@raven: I am very scared. Oh my very scared.
Mnemosyne
@NR:
Ah, so it’s all just a weird, totally unrelated coincidence that just happens to tie back to Russia, along with all of the other weird, totally unrelated coincidences that also just happen to tie back to Russia. Nothing to see here, Comrade.
SiubhanDuinne
I hate it when two commenters I like and respect start screaming at each other. Upsets my tummy.
raven
whoo hoo
raven
@SiubhanDuinne:
danielx
@Lavocat:
In all seriousness – what would you consider evidence? Code samples, sworn testimony….what?
Helen
@raven: I don’t pay? I pay $75,000 a year in federal taxes. My state and city taxes are an additional $28,000, I pay WAY more than many people I this country. Even more than families of four.
And I am happy to do it. Until I am called a fucking BIMBO.
Lizzy L
@Helen: Nobody on this blog cares how much you pay in taxes. Get a grip.
raven
@Helen: How stupid are you? You think that because you pay taxes you pay for MY healthcare? What is wrong with you?
sigaba
Geez what got into everybody, I walk in here on a quiet afternoon and KABLLOOOOEY.
Temporarily Max McGee (Until Death!)
@Helen:
Assuming that raven uses his VA health bennies to their fullest, you still slip more in the Salvation Army’s can than you pay for his bennies.
Be big about this and walk away from it. Both of yas. This got too stupid too quickly.
i
This thread is a shit show.
Botsplainer
@Helen:
What the fucking fuck?
Helen
@SiubhanDuinne: @SiubhanDuinne: @Temporarily Max McGee (Until Death!):
Yes. And I thank you all for pulling us back.. Raven I am sorry. This started about a stupid movie. I am truly sorry.
les
@azlib:
You act like trading has something to do with the economy.
raven
@Helen: It’s ok with me if it’s ok with you. I really didn’t think other people should think it was a stupid movie, I just did. Peace?
Yarrow
@Helen: @raven: It’s not a stupid movie!!!! #StandingMyGround #LoveActuallyMatters (Sorry…too soon?)
NR
@japa21: Except I never said any such thing.
raven
@Yarrow: Nah
Helen
@raven: Yes. Peace to you and to your very very pretty princess wife.
raven
@Helen: I have to cut her food but she can bake cookies!
raven
@Helen: It’s probably pretty dumb to ask but my people came from County Clare, where are you?
Helen
@Yarrow: Yeah. WAY TO SOON. LOL.
NR
@Mnemosyne: So your contention is that Putin hired Tad Devine for a contract in 2009 because he could see into the future and knew that Donald Trump would run for president seven years later, knew that the Republicans would shit the bed in their primary, knew that Bernie Sanders would run for president, knew that Sanders would hire Devine, knew that Hillary Clinton would run for president, and knew that she was going to make a bunch of mistakes over the next seven years that would leave her vulnerable in the Democratic primary that he also knew was going to take shape exactly the way it did.
So, question: If Putin really is as all-knowing and all-powerful as you say, why the fuck does he care who the president of the United States is? Why doesn’t he just wipe us all out with the power of his brain?
Helen
@raven: Mom was born in Belfast. But County Clare is the prettiest of all of Ireland. Would live in Galway (just north of Clare) if there were jobs.
raven
@Helen: This was Bridgette Downs Figg born in Count Clare in 1841.
sigaba
@NR: This is like saying if Putin wins a hand of poker, anyone who claims he was actually playing poker is implicitly assuming Putin stacked the deck a week in advance, because why else would he have won?
Helen
@raven: How many grannys from you? Great, great, great?
sigaba
[Oops, I mentioned a card game in my comment and am now stuck in moderation.]
Yarrow
@raven: it’s weird how injuries work. You can do some things and other things that you think you shouldn’t be able to do you can do just fine. At least you’re getting cookies!
T S
@Lavocat: What evidence of a computer hacking could there be that could not simply be fake as well? If you don’t trust them to tell you the truth, you shouldn’t trust any documentation they show you. Oh, a Russian computer with files on it? Could have been faked. You are throwing up a bunch of smoke by drawing false equivalency between Trumpsters accepting truly fake news versus us who think that an official statement from the CIA is not fake news. Your arguments are pure garbage.
NR
@Mnemosyne: Oh, and this is to say nothing of the idea that Devine is somehow Putin’s agent (despite having stopped working for him seven years ago) because reasons.
I mean, everyone in the world drops everything when their boss from seven years ago calls them up and does whatever he/she says, right?
SiubhanDuinne
@Yarrow:
It is my experience that no matter what part of your body is injured, no matter how small and seemingly insignificant it is — once you start about your day, that piece of your body turns out to be the single most important bit you have.
Raven: continued best wishes to the princess for a full, speedy, and comfortable recovery!
mai naem mobile
@Major Major Major Major: if he is impeached, the only possible way Lumpy goes off without a fight is if the GOP sugardaddies give him some major big $$$ and I’m not sure,even then, he does it. He’s got too much pride. I think the GOP then comes off damaged to the point where you can peel off some Sens to vote with the Dems. Don’t think Pence gets a free ride,especially since they will look at him as a lame duck. And the bankers aren’t going to want a gold bug at the Fed. Of course this is all assuming Lumpy gets impeached.
J R in WV
@The Moar You Know:
So, what did you do with the “cashed in” protfolio? Literally, cash in a savings account? Bonds? Government bonds?
I have a retirement portfolio, saved hard for 20 years, took a big hit in 2008, doing better since then. I know there’s a crash coming… but I don’t know what to do about it.
raven
@Helen: She was my grandfather’s grandmother. She married a Confederate Civil War vet who moved to Chicago and became a fireman. My grandfather is the boy with the baby in his lap.
raven
@Helen: One more, this is my mom’s aunt Venus.
mai naem mobile
Awwwww Helen and Raven made up. My evening is complete. Is that what happens in that memorable movie ‘Love Actually’?
mai naem mobile
@raven: Bridgette Down Figgs looks like one stern woman and your aunts got some damn long pretty hair. I bet she had neck problems carrying that much hair around with her.
raven
@mai naem mobile: easy
raven
@mai naem mobile: She was my mom’s aunt and all the other pictures of her have her hair in a bun.
catclub
@Poopyman:
Luckily, repealing Dodd-Frank and as many financial regulations as possible, is at the top of the agenda for GOP. It was over-regulation that caused the 2008 crash – you could look it up.
tybee
@Lavocat:
as do i. and you are full of shit.
Mnemosyne
@NR:
Wow, that’s quite a conspiracy theory you cooked up there all by yourself. It’s certainly much more entertaining than my theory that, when Bernie decided to make a run for the nomination and was looking for a campaign manager, Putin called up his old buddy Tad and pumped a few million into Tad’s Swiss bank account so that Tad would sow a little discord against Hillary Clinton. That investment paid off far better than Comrade Putin ever imagined.
You realize who Tad Devine is, right? “Our Brand Is Crisis”? The guy who jets around trying to get aspiring despots and other assorted assholes elected by sowing as much discord as possible?
workworkwork
@Helen: We watch it every Christmas. I get weepy in the first five minutes.
Larkspur
@rikyrah: Good evening, rikyrah!
Larkspur
@SiubhanDuinne: Me too. You guys, stop it. You are both tough outspoken capable people, and I like both of you a lot but I am a delicate country spinster and y’all are going to make me cry.
Larkspur
@mai naem mobile: OMG I am hurrying back to read the happy ending! Or the truce or whatever. Thank you!
ETA: and thus I killed the thread. Sad.
NR
@Mnemosyne:
And what, pray tell, is your evidence that this happened anywhere outside of your fevered imagination?
Mnemosyne
@NR:
Oh, I’m sure you’re right, comrade. Nothing to see here, no actual Russian connections at all. Just a bunch of completely unrelated coincidences that all just happen to converge in Russia. Devine, Manafort, Bannon, Snowden, Flynn, Tillerson — all just a strange and unrelated series of coincidences.
NR
@Mnemosyne: So in other words, you have no evidence.
Thanks for clearing that up.
Mnemosyne
@NR:
No worries, comrade. Keep up the fine work of ignoring the truth. Comrade Vlad thanks you!
sherparick
@Yarrow: Yea, I saw that to. Apparently, Luke Russert has been doing some serious thinking. Gives a clue as to why he quit his gig at MSNBC and NBC. I need to send this to Driftglass.
Feckless
At hullabaloo they are claiming the DNC was too poor to do cybersecuriry.
WTF did Hillary spend half a billion dollars on???
NR
@Mnemosyne: Coming from someone who thinks their paranoid delusions are “the truth,” that’s a hilarious statement.
Protip: Your fevered imagination is not a valid source for “the truth.”