Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Usually wrong but never in doubt

Give the craziest people you know everything they want and hope they don’t ask for more? Great plan.

Republican obstruction dressed up as bipartisanship. Again.

I’m pretty sure there’s only one Jack Smith.

Roe isn’t about choice, it’s about freedom.

The cruelty is the point; the law be damned.

This really is a full service blog.

They traffic in fear. it is their only currency. if we are fearful, they are winning.

The republican caucus is already covering themselves with something, and it’s not glory.

Insiders who complain to politico: please report to the white house office of shut the fuck up.

Schmidt just says fuck it, opens a tea shop.

Some judge needs to shut this circus down soon.

Not so fun when the rabbit gets the gun, is it?

No one could have predicted…

If you are still in the GOP, you are an extremist.

Our job is not to persuade republicans but to defeat them.

The revolution will be supervised.

Pessimism assures that nothing of any importance will change.

T R E 4 5 O N

🎶 Those boots were made for mockin’ 🎵

An almost top 10,000 blog!

But frankly mr. cole, I’ll be happier when you get back to telling us to go fuck ourselves.

I’ve spoken to my cat about this, but it doesn’t seem to do any good.

Is it negotiation when the other party actually wants to shoot the hostage?

You are here: Home / Organizing & Resistance / Don't Mourn, Organize / Monday Morning Open Thread: Welcome to the Resistance

Monday Morning Open Thread: Welcome to the Resistance

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What’s on the agenda, as we prepare to power through to the new year?
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From the Advocate article:

… As both an Asian-American and an LGBT American, I have borne witness to some of the most egregious injustices and tragedies of our national history, where both the public and the politicians turned against us to devastating effect. Many know that I grew up in internment camps where we were held without trial or even charge for years, simply because we happened to look like the people who bombed Pearl Harbor. Fewer remember that, as a young man, it was illegal for me in many states to marry a Caucasian person due to antimiscegenation laws. And as a gay man, I stayed deeply in the closet out of fear that I would not find work as an “out” actor. That same fear rendered me silent even as the scourge of the AIDS epidemic in the ’80s and ’90s took so many of our community, while the government turned a blind, callous eye.

But know this: I do not look upon all those difficult years solely as blights in my life. To the contrary, they helped forge who I am today. As both an ethnic and sexual minority, an “outsider” in nearly every sense, I was forced to learn the rules of society very early on. Unlike my straight white male counterparts, out of pure necessity I grew keenly aware of the way our society was ordered. I had to take note of the system so that I did not run afoul of it…

It is axiomatic that little worth fighting for has ever come without a fight. New veterans of our struggle will emerge from the coming clashes. And while we all wish that future generations would not have to face the terror, isolation, and even deadly effects of hatred and bigotry, we are reminded today, more than ever, that the struggle may truly never be over. Enemies of progress, equality, and justice often slip away unnoticed for years, regroup and change their names and strategies, then re-emerge to challenge what we have gained.

This does not mean, however, that we are starting again from ground zero. When they came for my family and my community back in 1942, very few others stood up for us. The Japanese-American community felt alone. Similarly, when drag queens rioted at Stonewall in 1969, the LGBT community also had few allies. But today, when the incoming administration threatened Muslim registries and racial profiling, the progressive response was collective and swift to say we would register as well. When Native Americans camped out in the freezing cold to oppose the Dakota Access Pipeline, veterans came to stand with them. And when Trump began to name a cabinet of homophobic and hateful bigots, communities of all colors and creeds decried it. We truly have grown stronger together, and with each new assault upon our dignity and humanity, we will grow stronger still.

So welcome to the resistance. It’s where the next heroes of our movement will emerge. Be ready. Be vigilant. Be strong.

Reader Interactions

383Comments

  1. 1.

    Zinsky

    With Mr. Sulu at the helm, I am ready to follow the resistance to wherever it needs to go. Maybe democracy does get scerlotic after 226 years. It might be time for an uprising against another unelected King.

  2. 2.

    Morzer

    If we do this right and build a real movement with self-discipline, cohesion and a plan for making this country what it can and should be, we shall be able achieve the victories that the sclerotic, timid, weak Democratic party has failed so miserably to reach for in the last 30 years. Our goal should be not just to halt but to break the corrupt disaster of the Reagan revolution for good. We know that the majority of Americans like genuinely liberal policies when they are offered them. Let’s give these people a real choice between an orange colony of cancer cells smeared with its own dung and a country people can be happy and proud to live in.

  4. 4.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Morzer: While it is true that the majority of Americans like genuinely liberal policies when they are offered them, it has been my experience that they always want somebody else to pay for them.

  6. 6.

    bystander

    The term “Americans” encompasses many people with whom I share nothing in common beyond the needs of breathing and eating. I’m not surprised when idiots are deceived by grifters. We will have to do more than just outnumber them. We may need reeducation camps. I propose Mr. Takei be in charge.

    BTW, SNL would do well to employ Leslie Jordan. He would make an excellent Jeff Sessions opposite Alec B. as President Pu$$ygrabber. Leslie’s indelible portrayal of Beverly Leslie on Will & Grace was superbly funny.

  7. 7.

    Edmund dantes

    We need to turn the US into CA ala the movement that grew out of Prop 187 and prop 8 as examples.

  8. 8.

    Morzer

    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/all-coming-together

    There was some news of this already. But now it’s coming together. The neo-Nazi website The Daily Stormer is organizing an armed march against Jews in Whitefish, Montana.

    There’s an extensive quote from the Daily Stormer at the link. This is who Trump and his rabble are – and if we don’t stand up and punch the bastards in the face and make them slink off back under their rocks, we won’t ever win anything. We need to fight for normal, decent Americans and their right not to be threatened or attacked by these vicious scum in the name of a worthless ideology.

  9. 9.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    I’ve finished the second load of dishes from Christmas dinner, the kid and I did the first until it completely filled the drying rack. An excellent dinner, thanks to Adam for his directions last Christmas for a beef roast. The poor kid is a bit depressed having split up with her boyfriend of 5 years, and has promised to go hiking with more than once next year.

  15. 15.

    Baud

    @BillinGlendaleCA:

    The poor kid is a bit depressed having split up with her boyfriend of 5 years,

    Sorry for the kid’s feelings, but good riddance to a Republican. (Is the election why they broke up?)

  17. 17.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    Oh, the kid also got a new Cannon DSLR. I told her to shoot RAW and get the Adobe Photography package.

  19. 19.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    @Baud: Happy Boxing Day.

    @Baud: No, she didn’t go into any details last night. But from what her mother says, they were arguing alot. About Republicans, our friend who joined us for dinner is a Republican. Though the only slightly political discussion we engaged in was about health insurance.

  23. 23.

    mai naem mobile

    I saw a blurb yesterday from the NYT about Lumpy changing the judiciary because there’s a 100 vacancies that he’ll fill. I didn’t even click and read because it’s too depressing. It just pisses me off that the GOP are getting rewarded by Americans for their obsrruction. They didn’t pay shit consequences.

  25. 25.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    @Baud: No, it’s a friend of the wife and I. The only place it got somewhat testy is when he asserted that ACA cause premiums to rise, and I pointed out that you have no way of knowing that they wouldn’t have gone up without ACA. But there was surprising agreement that healthcare is not a functioning market.

  27. 27.

    Botsplainer

    @Morzer:

    Unless Art Laffer, Grover Norquist and every goddamned MSM pundit are machine gunned as traitors to humanity by revolutionary cadres after a series of drumhead trials (to be broadcast as “A Festival of Justice”, special musical appearances by Tom Morello and Boots Riley), the message won’t take.

  28. 28.

    Baud

    @BillinGlendaleCA:

    and I pointed out that you have no way of knowing that they wouldn’t have gone up without ACA

    Good man. It’s surprising to me how people forget their own history. Health care premiums have been rising beyond inflation my whole life.

  29. 29.

    Morzer

    http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2016/12/22/on-optimism-and-despair/

    This is the world I knew. Things have changed, but history is not erased by change, and the examples of the past still hold out new possibilities for all of us, opportunities to remake, for a new generation, the conditions from which we ourselves have benefited. Neither my readers nor I am in the relatively sunlit uplands depicted in White Teeth anymore. But the lesson I take from this is not that the lives in that novel were illusory but rather that progress is never permanent, will always be threatened, must be redoubled, restated, and reimagined if it is to survive. I don’t claim that it’s easy. I do not have the answers. I am by nature not a political person and these are the darkest political times I have ever known. My business, such as it is, concerns the intimate lives of people. The people who ask me about the “failure of multiculturalism” mean to suggest that not only has a political ideology failed but that human beings themselves have changed and are now fundamentally incapable of living peacefully together despite their many differences.

    In this argument it is the writer who is meant to be the naive child, but I maintain that people who believe in fundamental and irreversible changes in human nature are themselves ahistorical and naive. If novelists know anything it’s that individual citizens are internally plural: they have within them the full range of behavioral possibilities. They are like complex musical scores from which certain melodies can be teased out and others ignored or suppressed, depending, at least in part, on who is doing the conducting. At this moment, all over the world—and most recently in America—the conductors standing in front of this human orchestra have only the meanest and most banal melodies in mind. Here in Germany you will remember these martial songs; they are not a very distant memory. But there is no place on earth where they have not been played at one time or another. Those of us who remember, too, a finer music must try now to play it, and encourage others, if we can, to sing along.

    Let us not give in to the self-indulgence and despair of assuming that we can never win over others to a better cause. It’s a cheap and cowardly way of refusing to do any work for the ideas we supposedly believe in. If one approach fails, pick yourself up, square your shoulders and try another. The only permanent defeats are the ones we accept.

  30. 30.

    Morzer

    @Botsplainer:

    The message certainly won’t take if we set impossible conditions for its reception. Nor will it it do us much good to adopt the methods that the hard right are clearly itching to use themselves.

  31. 31.

    satby

    Happy Boxing Day everyone!
    Nice day with my kids yesterday, back to work today and tomorrow, then another holiday though we work New Year’s eve.
    I’m just glad the holidays are almost over because I sure wasn’t feeling them this year. The only people I enjoy hearing from are you all, mainly.

  32. 32.

    Botsplainer

    @Morzer:

    I got yelled at by youngest daughter on that one sometime in the past couple of days – she was a whole hog Berner who became opened through the Bern’s firehose of stupid to absorb that the WWC aren’t necessarily deplorable. Naively, she thinks they can be reached through drum circles, giant puppets and peaceful protest that occasionally stops traffic.

    She claims that my observations (that they can only be reached by a baseball bat to the head) are classist.

    Thanks to the info sources that the Bern has pumped into millennials, she’s advocating metal backed money, now.

    Middle daughter is also infected with the Bern.

    My goal is the permanent political destruction of Bernie Sanders, and the de-Bernification of the Democratic Party. Once that is accomplished, a rational center-left is triumphant.

  33. 33.

    satby

    @Botsplainer: My youngest kid was a full on Berner too, and I can’t even get through a reasonable discussion with him now. If I met Sanders face to face I would probably throttle the old fuck.

  34. 34.

    Baud

    She claims that my observations (that they can only be reached by a baseball bat to the head) are classist.

    I initially read that as “bassist,” and thought, “what’s her deal with bass players?”

    I need coffee.

  37. 37.

    debbie

    @BillinGlendaleCA:

    I have a very clear memory of Anthem in CA announcing their rates would increase by 30+% the year before Obama introduced his plans for ACA. It’s bullshit to blame ACA for premium increases. This is what insurance companies had done, with impunity, for years and years.

  38. 38.

    Botsplainer

    @Baud:

    That would probably be more reliable and less of a scam than Bitcoin.

    It could be based on the number of pressings and downloads of Megadeth tunes…

  40. 40.

    satby

    @debbie: you and no one else remembers that. When I say it, I’m an apologist for a failed system.

    I used to fight back, but I’ve given up. There are no commonly accepted facts anymore to base rational discussion on.

  42. 42.

    Botsplainer

    @satby:

    The three most seminal elections in recent American history involve Democratic Party incumbency and sniping at the center left from the left flank.

    Gene McCarthy 68, Ted Kennedy 80, Bernie Fuckface Sanders 16.

    Those are the elections that delivered us Nixon, Reagan and Trump.

  44. 44.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @debbie: They increased their rates by 30+% in anticipation of the ACA. Now, when the ACA goes away, they will be forced to increase rates by 30+% because they were unfairly restrained by it.

  46. 46.

    Botsplainer

    @debbie:

    Tell me about it. The monsters cleaned out the tequila, whiskey and rum last night. The counters (clean when I went to bed at 11, dishes all washed) are sticky, and there are plates, drink glasses and beer bottles everywhere. Middle daughter’s boyfriend is the most useless one of them all. I’ve never met a lazier person.

  49. 49.

    Botsplainer

    @Baud:

    I want Nader to watch and tremble. Plus, we’ll need an apologetic turncoat who has learned the lesson of his folly…

    ETA – Actually, you’re right. I thought you were responding to my machine gunning list.

  52. 52.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Baud:

    Bitcoin isn’t backed by anything,

    Ummmm, correction: It’s backed by the full faith and credit in the utter stupidity of your average human being.

  54. 54.

    satby

    @Baud: my mistake. I should have said present company excepted.
    But I work in an eye doctor’s office and I can’t believe the bullshit I hear from people on a daily basis about the evils of the ACA; and I can’t really respond. Though I do often mention my own corporate insurance went up every year while benefits were cut before Obama was even elected. Deaf ears.

  57. 57.

    Botsplainer

    @Baud:

    Reliance on mathematics, science and observable facts is classist and elitist. The observations and biases of the working class must always be respected, even if demonstrably wrong.

    Pointing that out to them is hurtful, and will never lead them to the harmonious future laid out by The Bern…

  60. 60.

    WereBear

    @debbie: Unfortunately, Republican fans do not think on their own, so whatever their Leaders tell them is what they believe. And they have no brain structure that allows them to figure out the truth is otherwise.

    Worst of all, they are fine with that.

    A mindset I have never been able to comprehend, personally.

  62. 62.

    MomSense

    @Botsplainer@satby:

    My kids didn’t succumb to the bernie crap thank dog but I definitely lost my mom to it. On every single issue we discussed she would acknowledge that he didn’t really address the problem or provide an answer that even made sense but she doesn’t care because she likes him. WTF.

  69. 69.

    Elmo

    @delk: Ah damn. I’ve been there more often than most, I think, and it’s never anything but miserable and gut-wrenching. We’re all here pulling for you.

  72. 72.

    Botsplainer

    Buzzy hold music at customer service call centers makes me want to stab people in the forehead.

  73. 73.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    @Baud:

    Just a reminder that I am rich, handsome, and an extremely generous lover.

    I’ve heard that about you.

  75. 75.

    mai naem mobile

    @Botsplainer: I want Paul Ryan,Norquist,Tom Coburn,Art Laffer,Kudlow,Pete Petersen,Peter Thiel,Mitch McConnell,Brownback,Kris Koback, thr Kochs and very other Ayn Rand dickwad to be on a yacht off the coast of Florida during Lumpys presidency. My fantasy is that the yacht capsizes. The Kochs and Mitch drown after suffering for an appropriate amount of time with sharks biting off their extremities. The rest are found alive after several days floating in different areas by a privatized ill equipped undwreducated Coast Guard who are on an ancient rescue boat.

  81. 81.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Baud: You too, eh?

    @debbie: No no, a memory is completely superfluous. You don’t have to remember to remember, you can just make it all up on the spur of the moment and you don’t even have to remember what you just made up, 2 minutes later you can just make up a totally new and wholly different reality.

    You don’t even have to remember to forget. See?

  82. 82.

    Hal

    I keep hoping see Republican voters are going to see what Trump really is, but I’m not optimistic. Most conservatives seem prepared to bunker down and spend the next 4 years soaked in blind allegiance to justify there vote.

    When the axe came into the Forest, the trees said “The handle is one of us”

  84. 84.

    zhena gogolia

    @bystander:

    Do you remember him on Hearts Afire? His teaming with Billy Bob Thornton and Conchata Ferrell was gut-bustingly funny. “Elvis has left the building!”

  85. 85.

    OzarkHillbilly

    @Hal:

    Most conservatives seem prepared to bunker down and spend the next 4 years soaked in blind HATRED to justify there vote.

    FTFY, you’ll get my bill in the mail.

  86. 86.

    Schlemazel

    @MomSense:
    There it is in a nutshell. If you want to get a president elected qualification and ability can be ignored, go for charm.
    Reagan, a disaster in CA but everyone loved him
    W, a disaster in Texas but everyone wanted to have a beer with him (just don’t ask him to share his blow)
    Obama, in truth too inexperienced in 07, that he worked out was because he is neither stupid nor mean
    Trump, zero experience and even less ability but he gave people the image they wanted

    Forget finding Senators, Congressmen and Governors that are prepared to be President and find someone with a high “Q” score, fill their mouths with the bullshit people want to hear & not what they need to hear. But none of that will matter beyond the White House as long as we can’t take back some of the State Houses & redistrict

  89. 89.

    Schlemazel

    @Botsplainer:
    My favorite part is when they break in every 7 seconds to remind me how much my business means to them and they will get to me as soon as they can

  91. 91.

    debbie

    @MomSense:

    What slays me is that most of Trump supporters don’t think he’ll keep his promises and they don’t care. They were more interested in giving a big F U (with Trump as the middle finger) to anyone not part of their group.

    I just listened to an NPR interview with the head of the ADL. It was mentioned that Trump’s pick for ambassador to Israel (David Friedman) called the ADL “morons” and J Street “[email protected] collaborators.” These guys are going to out-Bibi Bibi. A real accomplishment.

  93. 93.

    Elizabelle

    Good morning, all. Happy Day after Christmas and continuing into the Hanukkah season. (Which candle is it tonight?)

    Hope everybody had a good day yesterday, and that delk’s dog continues to improve.

    I did go the Confederate Christmas, and it was just fine. Everyone on best behavior. We watched “The Shallows” after dinner. Now there’s a movie to watch from St. Paul, MN (which I understand, this week, is cold, icy and sleety). Or any severely non-beach climate.

    Now to catch up with the thread.

  94. 94.

    Kay

    Newt GingrichVerified account
    ‏@newtgingrich
    I goofed. Draining the swamp is in, @realDonaldTrump is going to do it, and the alligators should be worried

    Guffaw. It’s interesting only in that Trump believes THAT lie is politically important to maintain, as compared to all the other lies he told. Both Gingrich and Lewandowski admitted draining the swamp was bullshit and Trump immediately responded. They weren’t supposed to say that out loud. He’s really going to have to ride herd on his posse. They better get used to lying for the boss.

  96. 96.

    planetjanet

    Good morning, Juicers one and all. Are you ready for a morning sing-a-long?

    If you are grouchy and you know it, clap your hands.
    If you are grouchy and you know it, clap your hands.
    If you are grouchy and you know it, then your face will surely show it.
    If you are grouchy and you know it, clap your hands.

  97. 97.

    Schlemazel

    @Elizabelle:
    Not really cold, it could reach into the 40s today & it has been above freezing for a few days now. Wet, however, it most definitely is. It has been raining for 4 days with thunder and lightning last night. That ain’t right.

  100. 100.

    BillinGlendaleCA

    It’s looking increasing likely that the Rose Parade and Rose Bowl will be a tad damp.

  102. 102.

    Kay

    My son was working at a hospital in Toledo Thursday night, fixing their…electricity (I suppose) and he and his mates went to a bar after work. Toledo has “a lot” of Syrian refugees (compared to some other places) partly because Toledo has a Syrian community that has been there since the 1920’s. An NPR team came into the bar and asked them what they thought about the refugees and they either don’t know about it or don’t care. One of them has bedbugs in his apartment complex so they started this thing about bedbugs- can someone do something about the bedbugs? He said the reporter couldn’t get them to focus on the Syrian refugee threat what with the bedbug threat as a clear and present danger so they ended the interview – probably off to find angrier people :)

  103. 103.

    Schlemazel

    @BillinGlendaleCA:
    Thats a week away, Monday the 2nd, right?
    I wouldn’t believe the weather terrorists 3 days in advance let alone 7. My brother and his wife live in Lawson Beach & we keep talking about getting out there for the parade some year. My concern is we are 30 years late & it is now jut a madhouse that might not return the time & effort invested.

    I know I asked you before but I don’t remember your answer. When were you last there & was it worth it?

  105. 105.

    Elizabelle

    @MomSense: Your mom probably perceives “authenticity” in Bernie.

    It was pretty much there in Obama too, and chipped away at, again and again, in Hillary. Who is very cautious on a public stage, less perhaps in private. But the “inauthentic” stuck, and it’s a mask for “ambitious” too, which is, apparently, unacceptable in a woman in the United States in 2016.

  107. 107.

    Schlemazel

    @Kay:
    I worked with a guy that had bedbugs. A major pain in the butt (both the co-worker and the bugs!)
    He slept in a sleeping bag on a camp cot and put the sleeping bag in the dryer at high heat every day. The critters can’t take the heat. An exterminator sealed off his apartment and heated it up to some point (I think 120F) for a couple of hours. That worked temporarily but the bugs spread from neighbors. Eventually the whole building joined together & had this procedure. It is a big deal because they had to remove things that couldn’t take the heat & make sure their material stuff wa well exposed (mattresses separated, cushions off chairs & couches etc). Last I had heard that had worked for them

  109. 109.

    Kay

    @Elizabelle:

    I was with Bernie on his authenticity until one of the debates. He got all bent out of shape when Clinton (finally) attacked him in this “hurt” way that I just found incredibly annoying. He had been calling her corrupt for 6 months and she called him on it and he was so WHINY about it. He really went down a few pegs in my estimation right there.

    If you’re going to call someone corrupt they’re allowed to fight back. Clinton was actually much more of a straight-forward fighter than either of her male opponents. So much for the stereotype of the sneaky, passive aggressive she-devil. “Putin’s puppet” lays it right out there. Trump was so shocked someone had dared to attack him to his face he responded like a 4 year old. Bernie got his feelings hurt.

  110. 110.

    Gretchen

    @mai naem mobile: I love your fantasy. As i started to read it, since I live in Kansas, I wanted to add Brownback and Kobach, but you covered that. May your wish come true.

  111. 111.

    ThresherK (tablet)

    @Kay: I have never concerned myself with the threat (sic) of Syrian refugees. Has NPR always sucked this much or is this new? Now that Hillary isn’t running do they need to find another target for their projection?

    Many folks travel between my town and NYC and now I’m starting to worry about bedbugs.

    @zhena gogolia: My wife and I saw Leslie Jordan’s off Bway play “Hysterical Blindness”, an autobiographical story about his late youth. I would like to see perform him in anything.

    @Delk, hope things improve. For you and yours.

  112. 112.

    germy

    @Hal:

    When the axe came into the Forest, the trees said “The handle is one of us”

    The Archer and the Eagle
    (Ambrose Bierce)

    An Eagle mortally wounded by an Archer was greatly comforted to
    observe that the arrow was feathered with one of his own quills.

    “I should have felt bad, indeed,” he said, “to think that any other
    eagle had a hand in this.”

  114. 114.

    Kay

    @ThresherK (tablet):

    now I’m starting to worry about bedbugs.

    I’m amazed I haven’t gotten them yet. We have quite a few houseguests over the course of a year. My niece stored her stuff in a spare bedroom while she was looking for a job last summer. She had a cat who had fleas (apparently) and I got fleas. They were easy to get rid of though- we just have one cat. Bedbugs sound nightmarish.

  115. 115.

    Mr Stagger Lee

    What is the point with the “resistance” when I see some of you can’t still let go of your Bernie masturbation. The enemy is at the gates and you clowns act like like the Stalinists who liquidated the other leftist groups during the Spanish Civil war. If we survive the reign of Trump Don IL, we will get a new version of Orwell’s Homage to Catalonia.

  116. 116.

    Schlemazel

    @ThresherK (tablet):
    NPR has come to rely on corporate funding after Congress cut the government dollars. Over the last 30 years they have turned the needle more and more away from good reporting on important storied an toward the right. No, they were not always like this. It is not going to get better either.

  117. 117.

    Gretchen

    @Kay: i love this story. Why can’t they focus on an imaginary threat when there’s a real one to worry about?

  118. 118.

    Schlemazel

    @Mr Stagger Lee:
    So, apparently only Clinton supporters need to learn lessons from 2016?
    We went through this in 2000 with the asshole battalion for Nader and people learned nothing. Now we must ignore the damage done by Sanders for the good of . . . well there is the rub, the good of what exactly? So that we can do it again in a few years?

    People need to recount their experiences, all of them, even the one that make you unhappy in your guilt, to avoid repeating the mistakes of Nader, Stein and Sanders in the future.

  119. 119.

    satby

    @Mr Stagger Lee: fuck you. My kid never repeated rightwing talking points via Bernie before. And fuck Bernie.

    I will never be ready to make nice about that. He was a Fox-level propagandist for the left.

  120. 120.

    Baud

    @Mr Stagger Lee:

    To be fair, Morzer started the thread with this: “the sclerotic, timid, weak Democratic party has failed so miserably to reach for in the last 30 years.”

    No chance the firing squad wasn’t going to encircle after that.

  121. 121.

    planetjanet

    Why did I pack the skinny jeans for the day after Christmas, with a 400 mile drive between me and home?

  123. 123.

    burnspbesq

    @ThresherK (tablet):

    Has NPR always sucked this much or is this new

    Others may differ, but my view is that it turned into National Quisling Radio on or about November 9.

    I’m tempted to write to the management of KCRW and suggest that they establish a segregated fund for members who want to support local operations without tithing to NPR, complete with “Fuck NQR” hoodies and coffee mugs.

  124. 124.

    germy

    U.S. Senate Minority Leader Charles Schumer says he wants Donald Trump to include “real spending” and not just tax breaks in his plan to overhaul America’s transportation infrastructure.

    The New York Democrat tells The Associated Press he’s shared his view with the Republican president-elect. He says actual investment of federal dollars is necessary if the nation is to repair and rebuild its infrastructure.

    Asked whether his party will look to work with the new administration, Schumer says Democrats must stay true to their principles, but that they shouldn’t oppose something “just because the name Trump is on it.”

    Trump has vowed to repair and replace aging bridges, tunnels, airports and rail lines as part of a campaign to re-invigorate the nation’s transportation networks.

  125. 125.

    WaterGirl

    @delk: I am so sorry to hear that. I read on saturday that you were having to take your dog to the emergency vet but then was away at christmas. I thought about you and your pup more than once, hoping things would be okay.

  128. 128.

    Botsplainer

    @Mr Stagger Lee:

    Let me be clear – I despise Bernie and his fairy butterfly utopia. I despise his laziness, his ego, his hypocrisy. I despise his voice and his face. I despise his record, his wife and his surrogates. I despise his divisiveness, and eagerly awaiting his demise so I can go and leave a steaming deuce on his headstone as an epitaph.

  132. 132.

    Baud

    @germy:

    Trump has vowed to repair and replace aging bridges, tunnels, airports and rail lines as part of a campaign to re-invigorate the nation’s transportation networks.

    Just don’t call it a “stimulus.”

  136. 136.

    Elizabelle

    @rikyrah: Hope Peanut’s on the mend. Maybe there are some good films or shows you can watch together.

    OK, Juicers, bored with thinking about Saint Bernie.

    What was the most pleasant surprise yesterday, now that the Trump Days of spoiling holidays are upon us. What went right? Or was funny?

    ETA: The pressure is off, because funny as shit was covered by John Cole with his Shitmas thread last night.

  137. 137.

    Schlemazel

    @Baud:
    I had chosen to ignore that but really had to respond to mr.’s comment even though I know we should have just continued to ignore them

  138. 138.

    Barry

    @OzarkHillbilly: “While it is true that the majority of Americans like genuinely liberal policies when they are offered them, it has been my experience that they always want somebody else to pay for them.”

    Like Red States :)

  139. 139.

    Another Scott

    @Botsplainer: Ask them where Bernie’s tax returns are…

    :-/

    Bernie had a decent message on a thing or two, but was monomaniacal about it. Everything isn’t about Millionaires and Billionaires™. It’s dangerous to be so blinded by a personality that you can’t see their flaws. But every idealistic person has to learn that lesson on their own…

    Good luck.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  140. 140.

    evodevo

    @delk: Is this the one that threw up blood? Have the vet do an ultrasound of the intestines. Our dog did that once and it turned out to be an intestinal problem (dead section from a blood clot) that resulted in surgical intervention. She was 8 and is now a healthy 12 ….

  141. 141.

    tobie

    @Kay: I’m surprised more people weren’t bothered by how thin-skinned he was, but at some level I don’t think Bernie’s support was about him, nor was Trump’s support about him. These were populist revolts against perceived elites–be it the bankers, the neoliberals, coastal professionals, the entertainment industry, etc. The only thing that mattered were the forces these two figures pledged to fight against. Everything else (like past records or policy proposals) was irrelevant.

  142. 142.

    Elizabelle

    @evodevo: Oh, I hope that turns out to be the case. That delk’s problem is fixable, and that he can be returned to health.

    Getting four plus more years (and counting) out of veterinary surgery is a good return on investment.

  144. 144.

    RealityBites

    @delk: this thread may be over by now, but if you check back in, I want you to know I’m wishing that everything works out OK with your vet visit.

  145. 145.

    Kay

    @germy:

    U.S. Senate Minority Leader Charles Schumer says he wants Donald Trump to include “real spending” and not just tax breaks in his plan to overhaul America’s transportation infrastructure.

    It’ll be 90% tax breaks. The tax cuts will be permanent while the “infrastructure spending” will be one time and stingy. Trump won’t know what the fuck is going on and either will all those people he hired. The professional far Right ideologues who are permanent DC fixtures will roll Trump easily.

    You wonder at what point the tax breaks for rich people stop coming. They should be close to zero by now, what with crony capitalism subsidies and actual tax transfers TO wealthy individuals and corporations FROM middle class people. My federal income taxes haven’t gone down as a percentage of income for years, thru at least two periods of GOP tax break free for alls. It’s one of the reasons I don’t vote based on taxes. Who gets all these tax breaks, exactly? I’m in the top ten percent in income (not wealth but income) in this county (if median is 42k, which it is) and I have yet to see a federal income tax cut materialize.

  146. 146.

    Baud

    @Another Scott:

    It’s dangerous to be so blinded by a personality that you can’t see their flaws.

    That’s sucks. I was counting on that for Baud! 2020!

    @Kay: Yep, you really have to be close to the top 1% for tax breaks to make a meaningful difference to your voting habits. Or be really obsessed about taxes.

  147. 147.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    I have one more extended family dinner to get through tonight, with my most conservative relatives. Nicest people in the world, but hard core Catholics. We usually manage to avoid politics, but I’m always a little skittish when we get together.

    as to looking to the future: I’m game. I’ve seen a bit of Jason Kander since he lost his election bid by three points, outperforming HRC in MO by seven. Hard to see a path for him to advance in our state-by-state system, but if he can get him self out around the country and build his reputation, who knows? Stranger things than an ex state AG winning the nomination have happened. And I have a feeling the Trump administration is going to give Dems a chance to step up and get noticed, if they’ve got the chops for it. I’ll be interested to see what committees Harris and Maestro are named to, the confirmation hearings could be great theater, and an opportunity

  148. 148.

    liberal

    @Schlemazel: Sanders didn’t run third party.

    What you want is for the party to just rubber stamp whatever lame centrist-y candidate the party elites put forward, at the polls.

  151. 151.

    Schlemazel

    @liberal:
    No, what I want is for Democrats to not use Republican bullshit against other Democrats and for the children who believe in the fairy tale that a socialist could ever be elected to a national office in the current conditions give their fantasy a rest for a bit and help elect what is currently possible while trying to drag the nation leftward.

    But nice use of a strawman

  152. 152.

    germy

    @Kay: And the ten percent will be a bunch of giveaways to cronies who will enrich themselves without actually getting anything meaningful accomplished.

  153. 153.

    Davis X. Machina

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    While it is true that the majority of Americans like genuinely liberal policies when they are offered them, it has been my experience that they always want somebody else to pay for them.

    And always want them to be less-than-universal.

  155. 155.

    Another Scott

    Speaking of metal, I keep seeing Pat Boone on my TV machine telling me to buy gold. That must mean a crash in the metal is coming soon. When? That’s the rub… (See “pump and dump”.)

    He hasn’t aged well.

    If we can figure out why so many people seemingly trust ancient washed up white singers who have no expertise on anything, and direct that knowledge for good, well, we might start on a path to turning things around…

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  159. 159.

    Davis X. Machina

    @Kay:

    If you’re going to call someone corrupt they’re allowed to fight back

    Silly Kay, Hillary is a woman.

  162. 162.

    germy

    Tom Arnold is saying “Watergate-level journalists” are investigating the “tapes he heard.” Arnold was going to release them himself, but he thought cheeto’s supporters would only love him more. (?) Arnold also says seven extremely powerful show business people have refused his request to release them. He says if anyone crosses these seven people, their livelihood is threatened. But now he assures us it’s all coming out.

    I don’t know. My gut reaction is he’s just looking to jumpstart a dead career. And who are these “watergate-level” journalists?

  163. 163.

    Marjowil

    My son was a mild, not rabid Bernie who unenthusiastically voted for Hillary in the general. He would laugh at Trump and say he couldn’t win. I kept saying, he could win if people don’t vote.

    I think he is more or less scared straight now. Sees that at least some of what mom said wasn’t full of shit and Hillary, not looking so bad now. He has even drifted away from his socialism love affair now. Progress?

  164. 164.

    japa21

    @Schlemazel: Very true. Bernie could have just focused on the policy differences between him and Hillary, not that they were really significant. But he chose to attack her on personal grounds, i.e. the Goldman Sachs speeches and her being a puppet for the monied interests. Although these claims were obviously false, they did damage her and laid the groundwork for Trump. Sure Bernie was not the only reason that she lost, but he was part of it all.

  167. 167.

    Chris

    @ThresherK (tablet):

    I’m no more or less concerned by the Syrian refugees’ “threat” than any other time it’s happened in history. It’s a foregone conclusion that when you let in large numbers of people like that, some of them will end up being criminals – that’s how humanity works. We accept it because, in the case of immigrants, it strengthens our economy, and in the case of refugees, we’re saving far more lives than we risk.

    We’ve been here before, time and time again. Omega 7 and Alpha 66 right wing fanatics didn’t bring down the republic in the eighties, anarchist bombers didn’t bring down the republic in the twenties, the Fenian Brotherhood didn’t bring down the republic in the 1870s.

  168. 168.

    Mike in dc

    @germy:

    Who knows at this point? If he has something, it’s not difficult to insulate himself from suit. He’s not a signatory to the Apprentice NDA and he could just let a reporter view the video, confirm it’s authenticity and write up a summary transcript. If it gets challenged, the release the video itself.

  169. 169.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @germy: I don’t put much faith in silver-bullet revelations, especially since to get rid of Trump it would have to be something that would turn Republican primary voters against him, hard and fast, cause while Paul Ryan would impeach his grandmother or his own apple-cheeked eight year old daughter if it meant he could implement the Radian dream, and I’m sure John McCain and a few others would love to vote to remove Trump from office, they won’t move if it will cost them politically.

  170. 170.

    germy

    This was Arnold’s response when someone asked him to release “the tapes”

    Tom Arnold ‏@TomArnold Dec 24

    Bogged down with Stern Show fantasy football feuds haven’t had time 4 anything. Promise if Howard asked he’d get several other fans copies.Tom Arnold added,

  172. 172.

    Elizabelle

    @Marjowil:

    Sees that at least some of what mom said wasn’t full of shit and Hillary, not looking so bad now. He has even drifted away from his socialism love affair now. Progress?

    I think that’s why the deadenders are here, some of them. Keep people splintered, and that benefits …. uh, yeah.

  174. 174.

    germy

    @zhena gogolia: His logic is “I would have released the tapes before the election, but his supporters wouldn’t have cared and probably more of them would have voted for him. But now that he won, I’m deeply concerned about him being blackmailed by a foreign power, so I will release them (when I’m done with fantasy football).”

  175. 175.

    janeform

    @germy: The Democratic leadership can’t message itself out of a paper bag. People don’t like “spending.” Instead say something like Trump’s giving money to his friends rather than getting people to work building things.

  177. 177.

    Kay

    Glenn Thrush ‏@GlennThrush Dec 23
    Apart from being silly/uncivil – Libs heckling Ivanka and her kids is counterproductive: she’s the lone semi-progressive voice in his hear

    Why are media so attached to this idea that Ivanka Trump is 1. progressive and 2 has some influence over Trump?

    Obviously the Trump Family say this but is there a shred of evidence that it’s true? As far as I can tell Ivanka promotes some “progressive” babble to dupe media immediately prior to another far Right appointment.

    It’s ass covering. It’s this 1950’s approach to “women’s issues”, where they’re relegated to a person with no real power. There are female members of Congress with real power and actual experience with these issues. They’re ignored but Ivanka’s self- promotion is covered daily?

    Half the population are supposed to be grateful that Ivanka Trump wrote one of those ridiculous celebrity books about how she juggles career and family?

  178. 178.

    Hal

    One of my great irritations at the end of this year is seeing all the Hillary is just as bad people freaking out over every terrible thing Trump has done so far even though he isn’t even president yet. Oh well. At least you get to say I told you so.

  179. 179.

    Patricia Kayden

    @mai naem mobile: Americans reward the politicians who have backbones. Period.

    It’s obvious that despite what George W. Bush did to this country, Americans are okay with Republicans having full control of the Federal government and SCOTUS — even under an unqualified, inexperienced lunatic like Trump.

    Then in four years, they’ll be crying for Democrats to clean up the mess left by Republicans like President Obama did after Bush.

  180. 180.

    Chip Daniels

    One hopeful sign I see in the Trumpets is their embrace of stimulus spending, such as the 1 Trillion infrastructure promise and their embrace of direct government intervention in the market, such as the promise of tariffs and restricting offshoring.

    YES. I know Trump is bullshitting people, and his Cabinet has no intention of doing any of this.
    What gives me hope is that there is a pool of Americans who are no longer fixated on “Get the government out of the way” and appear to be receptive to government being the answer to problems.
    Even if…or especially if…the GOP fails to deliver, and the Dems offer a robust stimulus plan of our own in 2018 or 2020.

  181. 181.

    Patricia Kayden

    @Kay: One person, I repeat, one person heckled Ivanka on a plane. Why is Thrush ascribing this to all “libs”? Plus, why isn’t Thrush ascribing racist actions/comments of Republicans to all Rightwingers?

    When Paladino referred to Michelle Obama as an ape and that ugly White woman in West Virginia did the same, did Thrush scold all Rightwingers/Conservatives for these two people’s behavior?

  182. 182.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Kay: I think it was a Vogue magazine writer who wrote some stuff on Ivanka and attracted the ire of Tucker Carlson (insert you own mauled by a dead sheep joke here)– She tweeted something about not underestimating the “brilliant” Ivanka, it was meant as a warning, not praise. I saw an interview with Ivanka, and if she’s brilliant, she hides it well. She’s more polished than her father and shares his talent for media manipulation*, but she also got his inability to speak in complete and grammatically/syntactically correct sentences.

    *a talent shared by the equally “brilliant”, I suppose, Zsa Zsa Gabor, Dennis Rodman, and those Kardashian people.

  183. 183.

    Corner Stone

    @Chip Daniels: What in the holy hell of deep fried shenannies are you babbling about?
    Whatever you’re enjoying, did you bring enough for the rest of the group?

  185. 185.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Kay: There are female members of Congress with real power and actual experience with these issues. They’re ignored but Ivanka’s self- promotion is covered daily?

    That moment when she announced their childcare plan (Make nannies tax deductible again!) she said “Little focus has been put on how best to alleviate enormous financial burdens childcare places on low-income and middle-income families,” Ivanka Trump said.”– the combination of arrogance and I suspect very genuine cluelessness…. I guess that must be genetic, too.

  186. 186.

    Another Scott

    @Chip Daniels: The $1T is smoke and mirrors. Dean Baker calls it a joke.:

    […]

    Because it relies on a tax credit, only projects that generate revenue would fit the bill. That’s fine for toll roads and bridges, but this won’t repair our water systems and schools or even pay for repairing existing roads and bridges that are publicly owned. And items like early childhood education would clearly not be on the agenda.

    Of course we could privatize everything in sight, but this often does not go well. And it especially does not go well in the absence of strong government regulation. Every believer in free market economics knows that an unregulated water monopoly will gouge its consumers.

    The basic structure of the tax credit almost seems to be a joke. If a contractor says it spent $100 million to build a toll road, entitling it to $82 million in tax credits, who is going to verify that it did actually spend this amount? Do we think an eviscerated Internal Revenue Service will do it? And how do we know that the contractor didn’t pay his cousin’s firm $20 million for a $10 million job and agree to split the benefits from the tax credit? There is always some fraud associated with any tax credit, but an 82 percent credit on infrastructure is virtually a neon sign screaming “rip off the taxpayers.”

    The Trump plan may be useful if it made economists change their thinking about deficits. If the government financed $1 trillion in infrastructure through bond sales, the deficit hawks would all be screaming about the $1 trillion in new debt. But if contractors spent $1 trillion in infrastructure financed by decades worth of tolls and other charges the economists would be silent, even though the public would be paying for both. What matters is the value of the spending, not the method.

    Trump talks about a lot of things that he doesn’t understand. And supports both sides, simultaneously.

    What matters is what is proposed. Ryan said, a few weeks ago, there was going to be no infrastructure bill in 2017, IIRC.

    FWIW.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  187. 187.

    Patricia Kayden

    @Chip Daniels: That 1 trillion infrastructure plan may be a scam to get government dollars into the hands of Trump’s 1% friends. Looking forward to the details as to which companies will be eligible for projects and to obtain government funds. Democrats should be wary about supporting any infrastructure plan unless it is transparent and businesses can be held accountable for failing to comply with federal regulations. Otherwise we’re looking at a potential boondoggle.

  188. 188.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Another Scott: What matters is what is proposed. Ryan said, a few weeks ago, there was going to be no infrastructure bill in 2017, IIRC.

    McConnell, too, I believe

  189. 189.

    Kay

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    I’m sick of them putting forth Ivanka as a kind of consolation prize. I know they promote her as the liberal Trump. That’s goddamned obvious. There’s nothing that says I have to buy this bullshit.

    She didn’t seem to have any effect on his Cabinet choices. What exactly has this person DONE that makes her the “good” Trump? I know she got him to mouth some bullshit on “leave for mothers” but pardon me if I don’t consider that an accomplishment. He’ll fucking say anything, as we all know.

    I read her blurbs for the book she’s shilling. It’s 1980’s style “you CAN have it all!” You too CAN run a marathon AND a company! To me she sounds like a throwback to some earlier, awful, shallow “feminism” where upper class women urged lower class women to “excel!” That’s going back. It’s not “progressive” unless you’re 70 years old.

  190. 190.

    Patricia Kayden

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Let’s keep it real. Ivanka is a beautiful woman. Therefore, she’s going to be praised to the highest heavens no matter what she says or does. Since she’s placed herself in the public square, she’s fair game for criticism and questioning just like any other person in politics. Republicans expect us to hold her in awe but not challenge her hubris. Not going to happen.

  191. 191.

    LAC

    @Morzer: I am not doing the magical negro show for people who think that people like me deserve to be drowning in shit or that their boats are the only ones that float while ones with people of color and LGBT need to be weighed down with rocks in order for things to be fine for them. If that makes me cowardly, fine.

    I have lived in predominately white communities, worked in predominately white organizations, and am married to a white man. I am out there, a typical, boring black woman who pays her taxes, volunteers, loves to cook (and eat :)) can have a intense conversation about Westworld the movie and the series, loves shoes (too much for my husband’s taste, but he buys too many sneakers, so there) and who still cries at the end of Monsters Inc, West Side Story, Terms of Endearment ( I know, but I can’t help it) In other words, there is more to me than my skin color.

    I also head up a division and go to meetings where someone can barely hide their surprise that the voice they heard on the phone is the person speaking with them. I even had someone tell me that they thought i would be taller – uh, yeah, that chestnut. The gender/color thing is something that is a part of my working life.

    I say all this because there are tons of nerdy POCs out there, like me, who are being othered but at the same time being told that we need to dial back down and focus on reaching out to people who are fundamentally incapable of seeing us as a part of this country, and see us as stereotypes that need to be pushed back into the 50s. I will fight for ideals that a true progressive movement stands for and the gains that the Obama administration made and tried to make these last 8 years. While I am not naive enough to believe that it will be easy (it never is for us), I am not also naive enough to believe that we will not leave a good size swath of those people behind. To them, I can only just shrug and say “You do you, boo.”

    My “indulgent” rant for 2016.

  192. 192.

    zhena gogolia

    Our dinner guests yesterday had not watched the RNC. I did a dramatic re-enactment of Trump’s “hug” of Ivanka after her speech, using my husband as Ivanka. They were agape.

    Most people are not tuned in to all the little horrifying details the way we are.

  193. 193.

    Patricia Kayden

    @germy: What difference would releasing such tapes make at this point in time? Most of us who are poeple of color know dang well that Trump is racist. If he’s caught on tape that will only reinforce what many of us already know. So what?

  196. 196.

    Kay

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    “Little focus”. I get that we have to be treated to every utterance of the NY real estate family, but maybe someone could ask a female Democratic Senator about these issues? We’re not all celebrity ass-kissers. I’d like to hear from a woman who was actually elected and has some earned power. I’m insulted by this. I get the daughter who will beg her father to bellow something or other that isn’t offensive? Wow. Lucky me! This just gets better every day!

  198. 198.

    germy

    @Patricia Kayden:

    If he’s caught on tape that will only reinforce what many of us already know. So what?

    Yes, it wouldn’t exactly be news. And if the tape had been released in October, would any of his supporters really care?

  199. 199.

    Baud

    @LAC:

    I also head up a division and go to meetings where someone can barely hide their surprise that the voice they heard on the phone is the person speaking with them.

    For you.

  200. 200.

    Kay

    @Patricia Kayden:

    She’s “brilliant” now. Of course she is. So much for merit and earning anything. This is the message we send to young women? Have the good sense to be born into a real estate family in a major metropolitan area? That bestows “brilliance” apparently.

    She married someone who thinks trapping kids on a school bus as part of a political vendetta is “badass”. That alone makes me question her judgment. What is he, 12 years old?

  201. 201.

    germy

    @schrodingers_cat: My wife has a habit of reading books by women who “have it all” and I checked the author bio of the latest one. The writer gives all sorts of advice to women on how to succeed. According to the bio, the writer’s grandfather became a millionaire. One piece of advice she gives is to step back and take a break when things are overwhelming. She offers an anecdote about a time she spent a month just hanging out on the beach. Great advice for the rest of us who have two nickels to rub together.
    My wife replies that she can get information from anyone, regardless of how rich they are. She can find grains of truth. She’s right. I just don’t like advice books from people who were born on third base on how to hit a home run.

  202. 202.

    rikyrah

    @LAC:
    Fellow Black nerd here.
    Amen to all that you said.
    Bravo.
    I know the “Oh, you are Black” look. Had it happen to me too many times in my life.

  203. 203.

    germy

    @Kay: I’ve linked to this before, but it goes a long way to explain how she is NOT wonderful or progressive.

    Jia Tolentino, by the way, is a young lady who is doing some excellent journalism. I hope she has a long career ahead of her.

  204. 204.

    ArchTeryx

    @LAC: And I, as a white guy in a very Republican area, would be proud to know you and trade recipes with you. Some things are nearly universal.

    Like chocolate pie. ^.^

  205. 205.

    Neldob

    @Baud: this is what I can’t figure out, can Repubs just suddenly supported infrastructure spending after not for 8 years? Party first?!

  208. 208.

    Kay

    @schrodingers_cat:

    I give her credit though. She admitted she forgot lower income women after they protested one of her events :)

    I can’t stand another round of this- the struggles of upper class women to juggle their duties of home and career. Christ almighty, just roll the tape from 1989 – it’s the same fucking thing. MILLIONS of words, already written.

    Trump quietly settled the labor dispute with the women who clean his hotels, BTW. A complete victory for them. The Family don’t want them out making noise, apparently. Maybe Ivanka HAS made things better for the ladies! Her dad had to allow them to join a union or the family would have been embarrassed. That’s some real leverage.

  211. 211.

    schrodingers_cat

    @Kay: Also too, Mika Brezinski and Jack Welch’s current wife and former squeeze Suzy something or the other. I do not want them lecturing me, about climbing the ladder of success, when they got to their present perch by going horizontal.

  212. 212.

    ArchTeryx

    @rikyrah: In some ways I am no better. I grew up near the South side in Chicago. The old joke is that Chicago has 2 politicall parties: Black Democrats and white Democrats, and they hate each other with a seething fury that makes our current red-blue divide look like a Sunday church picnix.

    But I try to overcome it anyway.

  214. 214.

    Kay

    @germy:

    Thanks. This is what I was trying to say:

    Ivanka’s aesthetic differences from her father are often parsed as political differences, and she has made the most of such misperceptions.

    That’s the whole thing. That is both 1. “elitist” and 2. insulting. It’s policy as posturing, as part of her image. They did the same thing with one of the sons- his “issue” is education. He announces this at the convention and I have some duty to take him seriously? Why? What has he done to earn my respect there?

  215. 215.

    ArchTeryx

    @LAC: Good food is one thing that can United us. When it comes to good chefery, I don’t care if a recipe writer is black, white, or Martian, so long as the result is good.

    [Mmmm, Martian iron oxide pie, it’s what’s for dinner!]

  216. 216.

    Patricia Kayden

    @germy: Let’s not forget that Ryan admitted that Trump has made racist comments but fully supported him anyways. Let’s stop pretending that racism is viewed negatively by Republicans. It’s not.

  218. 218.

    ArchTeryx

    (Sorry about typos, doing this from my phone because I’m an absent-minded unemployed professor and left my tablet charger at the airport. :P )

  220. 220.

    frosty

    @Kay:

    Newt GingrichVerified account
    ‏@newtgingrich
    I goofed.

    I goofed? Seriously, “I goofed.”?? I’m even more depressed now that I know that’s all the more effort they have to put out and the lemmings will still buy it.

    WASF

  224. 224.

    Patricia Kayden

    @Kay: To the best of my knowledge, Syrian refugees have yet to be implicated in any terrorism in Europe or North America. It’s a shame how they’re being scapegoated. Good for your son and his workmates for not feeding into the xenophobic hysteria.

  225. 225.

    ArchTeryx

    @LAC: It really socks being absent minded some times, but friends always try to bail me out and I am ever grateful for them.

  226. 226.

    kindness

    I’ve seen several articles across the net speaking about Climate Change/enviromental regulatins wrt upcoming TrumpCo. One fallacy I wish was addressed more is that conservatives are against it on highly moral grounds against unneccesary costs associated with regulations for ‘unproven theories’. Can we just stop right there? Republicans wanting to gut environmental laws & agencies has nothing to do with principle and more honestly just another way to allow corporations and the rich to get just another dollar of profit in their hands. Dubious moral grounds really. It needs to be framed as such. Don’t let them off the hook on any of their bullshit.

    Of course with our MSM leading that charge….

  227. 227.

    Elie

    @LAC:

    LOL — I hear ya…

    Its all I can do sometimes to keep from that….

    After almost two months, I remain inconsolable — stuck on the now proven fact that a significant number of white people who I had considered my countrymen and women, wish me to have permanent second or third tier status so that they can rule — yes, rule, this country without any fairness, balance or justice. I kick myself because every black person should never forget this — ever. That a decent majority of white people will never accept equality or justice for anyone but themselves. After years and years of effort, after a civil war, the majority of them still can’t do it. Its hard to know how to fight this since there already has been so much effort and here we still are…

  228. 228.

    Hal

    @LAC: +1000

    I’m another black nerd. Gay, biracial, grew up around white people who casually talked about their lazy n-word coworkers or casually threw the n-word around in my presence because I was not really black because my mother was white, or I was a good black person. These are the people that vote for Trump.

    There are plenty of reasons Hillary Clinton lost, but I firmly believe racism and sexism was part of the foundation of that loss. I’m just not longer in the mood to entertain the whole reach out to them, change their minds ideology I keep reading.

    People want to love their racist aunt and uncle? Great, but don’t put the impetus on people of color and/or lgtb folks to change their minds. I’ve said before, Hillary lost by tens of thousands, not millions. She won the popular vote by millions. Trump and his supporters don’t want and should not be coddled. We need to stand firm and fight back against every regressive move and initiative Trump and congress attempt. Sympathy to his core supporters is futile, and unnecessary and an insult to millions of people who Trump targeted to win this election.

  232. 232.

    Patricia Kayden

    @Hal: Agreed but am scared that while people like us will resist Trump, Democratic politicians won’t do the same. My fear is that Democratic Senators are already looking for ways to “work with” Trump instead of standing up to his bigotry. Our side needs to take a page from the Tea Baggers and obstruct Trump every chance we get. He shouldn’t be normalized.

  233. 233.

    Another Scott

    @kindness:

    Republicans wanting to gut environmental laws & agencies has nothing to do with principle and more honestly just another way to allow a few particular old-economy corporations and the rich to get just another dollar of profit in their hands. Dubious moral grounds really. It needs to be framed as such.

    Well said, with a FIFY. ;-)

    (Assuming we don’t blow up the planet,) 200 years from now we’re not going to be burning coal and gas and oil, just as we’re no longer burning peat and whale oil. There’s a mountain of money to be made in coming up with new power sources and more efficient machines, lighting, transportation, manufacturing, etc. Government is going to guide the development of these new industries (it always does, for good or ill), The question isn’t whether corporations are going to get rich in the process. The question is, which corporations are going to get rich, and what sort of planet are we going to create in the process.

    Elon Musk and Google and the US Navy are not waiting.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  234. 234.

    Kay

    @Elie:

    My son and daughter in law are really down. They’re at the “fuck it, who needs it?” point which kind of worries me because they’re mainstream “good government” Democrats- uphold the social compact, etc. If people like them disengage- sort of loosely attached, dutiful liberal voters- we could really head into crazytown with a powerful far Right wing running things. I get that there’s “privilege” involved- they’re upper income and safely ensconced in a liberal Chicago neighborhood but that doesn’t solve the problem that they’re disgusted with the whole thing. I can’t sort of lecture them into staying involved. Trump disgusts my daughter in law. She doesn’t want to listen to him and one way not to is to disengage completely.

  235. 235.

    Libarbarian

    @mai naem mobile:

    They didn’t pay shit consequences.

    Nothing is over yet.

    Revenge is a dish best served cold. And a good chunk of this country has some payback fucking coming.

    But … alas … I’m aware enough to know that these are probably fantasies brought about by the impotent rage I feel right now :(.

  236. 236.

    Mnemosyne

    @schrodingers_cat:

    I keep meaning to read a book by a really funny sociologist/comedian (!) called, If You Lean In, Will Men Just Look Down Your Blouse?

    I have one of her previous books, I Used To Be Snow White, But Then I Drifted: Women’s Use of Humor.

  238. 238.

    Elie

    @Kay:

    I won’t disengage — I just don’t see the way right now and everything that I see signals capitulation by the leadership of the Democrats. Not saying things won’t become more clear with time and that progressives won’t take heart again at some point, but there is so little vocal opposition.

    I think of the lives lost and the suffering of those both black and white who fought injustice. I know that they would not give up. I just keep telling myself that a way will emerge… somehow. We probably will not adopt the ways of the right wingers/tea party. That has not been how we rolled in the past anyhow. I don’t know the way. Obama has been pretty quiet as has been Hillary. I have mixed feelings about that but will wait to see what happens once the new regime starts after Jan 20.

    Our nation is very divided and I don’t see that changing for a while.

  240. 240.

    Belafon

    @Botsplainer:

    Thanks to the info sources that the Bern has pumped into millennials, she’s advocating metal backed money, now.

    You might point out that if the US took control of all of the gold in the world, it would only cover about half of the US economy at the current trading level. Thus, the price of gold would have to double, those holding gold right now would become a lot wealthier at the expense of those who don’t, and inflation would shoot through the roof. And then ask her how much is gold truly worth, if a soda machine will not take it.

  241. 241.

    Elie

    @Kay:

    I will also add that I believe that Trump’s regime will not be peaceful — it will be filled with turmoil and even violence — if not direct physical, to many norms. Your children will not be able to sit on the fence disengaged. It will be too immediate and too in their face. From everything that he has signaled thus far, we will be in sustained disruption that will be intended to frighten us or confuse our allegiances, into submission. She and he won’t be able to just retreat into comfortable middle class liberalism. None of us will.

  242. 242.

    Elie

    @Another Scott:

    Yeah, we’ll see how that will operate after Jan 20th. How many will through word and deed verify or refute. Hey, I by no means think these are just Republicans. Plenty of so called progressives truly like “the other” — whether the other are women, blacks, Muslims, LGBT or whatever. We’ll see how comfortable they are with how things are gonna roll.

  244. 244.

    Belafon

    @Kay: I’m going listen to him second hand. There are enough people that will that I can piece together what he says. I just have to make sure that the sources are spread enough to get the whole gist of the topic. Teen Vogue seems like a good source.

  245. 245.

    Belafon

    @Elie: Republicans, for all their talk, will still have to watch what they do. Mississippi couldn’t pass an abortion ban. Republicans depend on Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security. And plenty of Republicans have gay or transgender children. My home town (2/3 Republican) defeated a bathroom ordinance because the conservatives got up and said they would no longer support the mayor who proposed it.

  246. 246.

    Elizabelle

    @Belafon:

    Teen Vogue seems like a good source.

    /slap. Good job.

    NY Times has an article up this morning about the prevalence of fake news. I wrote to them it is odd to hear them addressing that topic, after they spent so much time on Hillary! Emails!

    So far my reader comment has not appeared.

  248. 248.

    germy

    @Belafon: A conservative criticized the editor of Teen Vogue for not being a teenager. He was sort of attempting a “gotcha! you’re a hypocrite!” at the editor.
    I saw this response on twitter:

    Brian Lynch ‏@BrianLynch Dec 24
    Brian Lynch Retweeted

    Sit down, I have to tell you something about CAT FANCY that’s gonna infuriate you

  251. 251.

    ArchTeryx

    @germy: That the cats don’t edit it? Shocking. Especially since they already think they are the pinnacle of life on Earth.

  252. 252.

    gene108

    I stopped off at a Panera for lunch, driving back from mom’s. I have been driving a bit too late long without a break.

    Under the Soup section of their menu they have an item called Baked Potato. I thought it was an actUal baked potato. I ordered it and the tomato soup. Lady taking my order looked at me like I was a bit off.

    Looking at my receipt, I realized I goofed. It said Baked Potato Soup.

    Guy making my order was nice enough to switch it out for a half sandwich.

    But now I know why the lady looked at me like I said as a bit nuts.

  254. 254.

    Another Scott

    @Elizabelle: The Times moderates its comments. If one posts something after the moderator has left, then it takes forever (if it appears at all). Same problem if one posts a comment on Krugman’s blog.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  255. 255.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    California went threw the same thing – first it was Pete Wilson the corporate con governor that everyone hated for the mess he created. Then it was Gray Davis was to competent and not macho enough so Arnold. Who turned out to be miserably useless, as anyone with a function brain cell could figure out. So now Jerry Brown and even the conservatives will vote Republican because everyone figured out functioning government is what counts.

    So the same pattern at the national level.

    On the other hand Arnold was smart enough to know when he was dumb. Trump is a truly stupid arrogant man, so yes, push back will be needed just limit the damage.

  258. 258.

    germy

    @gene108: You needed to go all Jack Nicholson/Five Easy Pieces on the waitress: “Give me the baked potato soup. Hold the soup. Just bring me the baked potato.”

  259. 259.

    Elizabelle

    @Another Scott: Oh yeah. And they have published a lot of mine. But ones poking at them, personally? Not that much, in my experience.

    I appreciate the moderated comments, even so. It’s better than the sewer that is most newspaper comment sections, and Times readers get their points across acerbically and well. Better than the underlying story, often.

  260. 260.

    ArchTeryx

    @germy: And the dogs probably leave comments to the effect if, ‘You’re a funny looking dog! Wanna play?’ at Cat Fancy.

  261. 261.

    Another Scott

    @rikyrah: Indeed. Voter suppression is a huge problem and it’s going to get worse before it gets better.

    That’s why I do what I can to support efforts like VoteRiders to make sure that everyone eligible is able to vote – no matter what the ID laws are, no matter how difficult they make early voting, no matter how they try to shrink the number of voting machines in Democratic areas. Until we can change the laws to get rid of these blatant vote suppression efforts, we have to fight them every . single . day.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  263. 263.

    gene108

    @Corner Stone:

    It is not wrong. It is not what I wanted. I wanted a baked potato to slather with butter, sour cream and so on.

    Edit: When I was placing my order the lady at the register asked if I wanted cups or bowls and I thought, “a cup or
    Bowl of baked potato, what strange size designations for a baked potato…”

  264. 264.

    germy

    @ArchTeryx: I used to have a cat who would submit article after article to MODERN DOG MAGAZINE, and then be enraged by every rejection. But I saw the titles. Stuff like “Dogs: Smell Bad When Wet?” and “Not So Smart or Just Plain Dumb? Dog Experts Disagree”

  265. 265.

    reggie mantle

    Glad to see BJ’s still more obsessed with fighting Bernie Sanders than resisting Trump. Permanent minority status here we come!

  270. 270.

    reggie mantle

    @Zinsky:

    With Mr. Sulu at the helm, I am ready to follow the resistance to wherever it needs to go.

    Takei, like me, was originally a Sanders supporter who eventually decided to support Clinton. He still welcome in your resistance, or are you still so pissed at Bernie that that disqualifies him?

  272. 272.

    reggie mantle

    @japa21:

    So was the comment a while back telling me

    Either figure out a way to support Clinton fully and completely — no more “Hillary is horrible” starting points — or go vote for Trump, just to show us all you meant it. Go vote for Stein, because that’ll be a lesson to those who ignored you. Do it. Don’t just threaten, go ahead and do it.

    I didn’t take the advice…wonder how many people did, though?

  273. 273.

    germy

    @ThresherK: I went on youtube and typed “tucker carlson teen vogue” and about 20 uploads of the interview turned up. But people see what they want to see. The conservative uploaders are convinced tucker “totally destroyed” her, while progressives say she made a fool of him.

  274. 274.

    reggie mantle

    Face it…the kind of “fuck you, we won, we don’t need your vote, Bernie Bro” arrogance displayed by Clintonistas, not just here but across the ‘net, may very well have cost Clinton the election by alienating former Bernie voters you could have used, mostly in the Rust Belt. Now you get to hear “suck it up, buttercup” too. Thanks fucking loads, you arrogant shits. And comfort yourself with “well THEY started it.”

    Enjoy the Apocalypse you brought on yourselves. Pity the rest of us have to try and live through it, too.

  276. 276.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Not since Cole shot down the public option has the massive power of the Balloon Juice comments section wrought such destruction in the land….

  278. 278.

    MoxieM

    I’m sitting here in Germany, the day after the day after Christmas, in real terms, here. It’s been beautiful, nostalgic, warm and family-filled, yummy, all the Things. None of the sense of US depression, misery, terror, (I’m not in Berlin); and none of the general sense of, ‘oh, fuck! what can we do now!!’. I had one convo with someone I know at Deutsche Bank who said (with disgust and dismay) that about 1/3 of his colleagues think the Trump election is a great thing because the stock market is up, DB is broke, and they’ll likely hang onto their jobs longer…. But an apocalyptic sense of doom? it’s not here. Maybe after you’ve actually created and lived through the apocalypse it’s hard to take Trump seriously. Maybe it’s more important to have a decent Christmas, then worry about the end of the world. Anyhow little appetite for politics talk this year.

  280. 280.

    reggie mantle

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Yeah, yeah, I get that one too: “we’re just a little bitty blog, no one pays attention to us”. But, as I said, if you’d bother to read it, it was all across the Clinton worshiping blogosphere. To her eternal credit, Clinton herself tried to be gracious, but her followers didn’t seem to have gotten the memo.

    And now, we all reap the whirlwind.

  281. 281.

    fuckwit

    @burnspbesq: since the excreable jesse helms cut off their funding in the reagan years, NPR has stood for Nice Polite Rupublicans. they are corporate stooges, normalizing idiocy. fuck them.

  282. 282.

    p.a.

    @reggie mantle: I tend to take a materialist view and think/thought Bernie brought issues to the table that are important. I was agnostic between the choices, felt Clinton probably was the best chance to win the general, and did, by popular vote.
    But if you and by your argument other Bernie supporters were turned off and didn’t vote, or voted 3rd party, or even voted tRump because some Clinton supporters somewhere on the internet, on tv, or in the Dem establishment criticized Bernie or his supporters, you are too precious for this world and should find a cave to live in somewhere so you will never be crossed, and can live in blissful isolation. God help you if you ever have a boss or coworker who calls you an asshole. Will you have an emotional collapse? Get a clue.

  283. 283.

    germy

    Newt Gingrich compares Obama’s legacy to a blow-up doll: ‘It shrinks and shrink and shrinks’

  285. 285.

    Tilda Swinton's Bald Cap

    @reggie mantle:

    To her eternal credit, Clinton herself tried to be gracious

    More than I can say for Bernie. He looked like his prostate was really bothering him through the whole convention.

  286. 286.

    reggie mantle

    @(((CassandraLeo))):

    Actual neo-Nazis have come into power and you’re more interested in bashing the guy who got behind Clinton after he lost the nomination. Feel free to fuck off your own self.

  288. 288.

    Elie

    @reggie mantle:

    “Now we all reap the whirlwind” because?……

    Bernie was challenged and occasionally asked to actually do something real — like show his tax returns? How he was gonna fix Wall Street? Please… He had his run at it. HE is the sore loser and all the rest of his cross eyed supporters who voted third party or stayed home. You all brought the doom… Now we reap the whirlwind thanks to you …

  290. 290.

    (((CassandraLeo)))

    @reggie mantle: I haven’t said anything negative about Sanders, you fucking idiot. I’ve only said negative things about you, because you’d rather relitigate the primary than focus on the literal life-threatening dangers people like me now face.

  291. 291.

    Elizabelle

    @raven: Incidentally, thanks for the head’s up about Edna’s Cafe in Asheville. Had seen it, driving by on Merrimon, and assumed from the logo it was a burger place. Go figure. Will definitely try it out next visit. What wonderful souls, to help fund a doggie hospice.

    When you get back to Asheville, you must eat at Homegrown. Worth a roadtrip! And Lucille’s (?) BBQ just down the hill on Merrimon.

    Love Asheville. Love the mountains. Love the new North Carolina Governor-Elect. Despise that backwater legislature. They might get theirs in 2018. A lot can happen, state and nationally.

  294. 294.

    EBT

    @Elizabelle: Just chiming in to say I am a born and raised Asheville native. I know it’s a small chain and not a true local place, but Wild Wing Cafe on (I think) Cox avenue is fantastic. 12 Bones is amazing too, but you have to get in line a couple hours before it opens. Also it’s inches from the French Broad, and may have been washed out (It only opened because the previous restaurant got washed out when the river overrode the banks).

  295. 295.

    Elizabelle

    @Another Scott: Yeah.

    I think “reggie’s” main game is stirring it up between those inclined to support Democrats. He’s almost too goddamned aggravating to be for real. He might be the fake sauce, with a side of Breitbart or Russia.

    If he is DougJ, I will be disgusted.

  296. 296.

    NR

    @satby:

    My kid never repeated rightwing talking points via Bernie before.

    Right-wing talking points like “we can’t do single-payer because it’ll cost too much?” It was Hillary Clinton who repeated that particular right-wing talking point, not Bernie Sanders.

  299. 299.

    Elizabelle

    @EBT: Making a note. Thanks. Ate at that place with cathead-sized biscuits last visit. Right — Biscuit Head.

    Asheville is so beautiful, and the food, and the mountains…. lucky dog.

  300. 300.

    EBT

    @Elizabelle: He is a deadbeat donnie voter, just ignore him.

    Yeah Asheville is a great place, Only place in the south I didn’t get shit for being trans.

  301. 301.

    LAC

    @fuckwit: really… when you have the likes of “conventional Cokie” Roberts and little lord fuckroy Carlson analyzing politics, you do not need me sending money your way.

  303. 303.

    Elizabelle

    @EBT: Might be. Ignoring is good.

    Do you live in Asheville now? I was giving some thought to relocating to Raleigh area, and still might. But not in a decisive mood at the moment.

  304. 304.

    reggie mantle

    @Elizabelle:

    I think “reggie’s” main game is stirring it up between those inclined to support Democrats.

    Comment #32:

    My goal is the permanent political destruction of Bernie Sanders, and the de-Bernification of the Democratic Party. Once that is accomplished, a rational center-left is triumphant.

    comment #33:

    If I met Sanders face to face I would probably throttle the old fuck.

    Yeah. I’m the one stirring things up between those inclined to support Democrats.

  305. 305.

    LAC

    @Elizabelle: clearly, NR’s family is going have drive out a little further if they want to kick him out of a car in the middle of nowhere next holiday. He keeps finding his way back.

  306. 306.

    Elie

    @germy:

    Why repeat this shit? Why amplify and pass it along to poison? Its like all the outlets that passed on what that moron in NY said about Michele and Obama. Don’t propagate this stuff

  309. 309.

    Jinchi

    @Marjowil: So your son voted for Hillary, but he’s “scared straight” now? You don’t even have the excuse that he was a Stein voter? How are you being any less obnoxious than the average Trump voter?

  311. 311.

    NR

    @p.a.:

    But if you and by your argument other Bernie supporters were turned off and didn’t vote, or voted 3rd party, or even voted tRump because some Clinton supporters somewhere on the internet, on tv, or in the Dem establishment criticized Bernie or his supporters, you are too precious for this world and should find a cave to live in somewhere so you will never be crossed, and can live in blissful isolation.

    It’s funny that you think words don’t matter and never have any consequences.

    When you spend months shitting on a group of people, attacking them over and over, and even falsely accusing them of committing racist acts, you shouldn’t be surprised that they aren’t exactly going to fall all over themselves to support you later on.

  313. 313.

    Betty Cracker

    @Elie: That’s one way of looking at it. On the other hand, letting stuff like that pass unremarked risks normalizing it. It’s not just some crackpot in an obscure comments section saying it.

  317. 317.

    Gravenstone

    @Another Scott: Not sure how it wriggled out of troll-b-gone, but it’s been appropriately re-quashed. And with it, about 60% of the thread since it showed up has disappeared.

  318. 318.

    EBT

    @debbie: Okra done well is amazing.
    @NR: Let’s be absolutely clear here. You come around and shit this place up with she was an awful candidate bernie or bust nonsense worse than any other troll, then have the audacity to claim you voted for Hillary. No one believes you, no one is reading the words you say and taking them as any more than farts in the wind. Not only are you pissing up a rope you are damn annoying about it too.

  319. 319.

    NR

    @EBT:

    then have the audacity to claim you voted for Hillary.

    I did vote for Hillary.

    You want to claim I didn’t? Prove it.

  320. 320.

    J R in WV

    @Jeffro:

    I was actually watching that on live TV, and like everyone else expected to see Mr Poe slam into the pile just this side of the goal line – BUT Then….

    He stopped, and elegantly, beautifully, completed a rainbow arched pass for 6 points, very much like putting the BBall up for a free throw. Wonderful. I bet he never forgets that moment. Probably the biggest guy to ever throw a touchdown pass. And not fat, just HUGE, strong guy. Denver was pissed, which was good too.

  321. 321.

    Elie

    @Betty Cracker:

    Still — there is power in the repetition of it — especially since there are so many sources for it. They know it will be repeated and it serves two functions: it stimulates their supporters and demoralizes the opponents. It makes me so angry that I could punch or drown one of these fuckers repeating it. Look at the damage Bernie did by repeating all the right wing crap… I would rather we ignore it. Like the exorcist said in the movie by the same name, Satan lies so you have to ignore anything it says. It uses lies to demoralize and damage…

  322. 322.

    EBT

    @NR: Parsimony. Bernie wasn’t on the ballot and most places don’t do write ins. That leaves Clinton, Stein, Johnston, and deadbeat donnie. Hillary “stole” the primary from the world’s second worst socialist (by winning way more votes) so that strikes her. Johnston’s VP said to vote for Hillary, so he goes. Leaves Stein and deadbeat donnie, and you seem more than a little mansplainy so strike Stein for having a vag. Leaving deadbeat donnie, therefore a trumper.

  323. 323.

    Elie

    @NR:

    If you did indeed vote for Hillary, why the exultation at her defeat? You lie because your actions conflict with what you say. Your intent is to sow discord and demoralize so even if you did vote for her (which I very much doubt — heck for all we know you could be in Russia paling around with Putin’s minions), what is the point of your coming here to just be an asshole if indeed you voted for her? It makes no sense.

  325. 325.

    NR

    @Elie:

    If you did indeed vote for Hillary, why the exultation at her defeat?

    I am not exulting at her defeat. I’m dreading what’s to come with every fiber of my being.

    But I will not sit back and let you guys blame me for it, either. Or Bernie Sanders. Or anyone else who wasn’t at fault for this disaster.

  327. 327.

    NR

    @EBT:

    Both you and Bernie need to own up to your parts in causing this.

    Since neither of us had any part in causing it, there is nothing to own up to.

    Now how about you say that same thing to the establishment Democrats who have lost the entire country outside of the northeast and the west coast to the Republicans over the last eight years?

  330. 330.

    Ghost of Joe Liebling's Dog

    @burnspbesq: had the same idea

    my local npr affiliate didn’t want to hear a damn thing about it

    npr good
    dissent bad

    and anyway they think they’re doing their jobs as ‘reporters’

    it is to laugh

    still it might do some good for them all to know that people wholeheartedly wish they would have done some actual reporting

    before the election

    and would support them if they were to give it a decent try

    even now

    with kind regards,
    dog, etc.
    searching for home

  331. 331.

    EBT

    @NR: If you actually cared about the Democratic party and the future deadbeat donnie is going to cause you would have given up the childish notion Sanders had a snowball’s chance in hell. You keep banging that drum though kiddo, everyone already knows you to be a liar.
    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: It’s really insulting to one’s intelligence isn’t it?

  332. 332.

    Elie

    @NR:

    Its not a matter of “blaming” as it is examining with open eyes and taking responsibility for actions that had real consequences. Was it all Bernie’s fault? Of course not! Not even the majority cause. But there were actions that he took in his primary campaign that caused damage that he sustained by carrying the accusations for a longer period and that for reasons that may be complex, way too many of his supporters continued with the same messages and motivations after she had won fair and square. Are there any lessons learned that you would cop to? Well no, I am sure it was all good in your eyes. Did Bernie or his followers make any mistakes? Do you have any regrets in retrospect? Well of course not!

  333. 333.

    J R in WV

    @Patricia Kayden:

    Regarding Ivanka on Jet Blue, the guy who yelled never spoke to our around Ms Trump – he yelled at Jet Blue staff. Which was both considerate of Ms Trump and stupid because if you yell at the Airline staff, they will put you off the plane.

    But he never harassed Ivanka Trump to her face! Which all the MSM stories leave out, omitting the important item, thus making their stories all part of the big lie.

  335. 335.

    EBT

    @NR: If you think the Rich Socialist Jew was going to win you are a mouth breathing fool. Why are you not more up in arms about the clear voter suppression in several states? Why are you not spending your time calling your local congressfolk and demanding 100% non compliance? It’s because you voted for the deadbeat and you just want to stir the shit.

    Quick and dirty: For every voter he picks up because of Clinton Derangement Syndrome he loses at least 1 for being Jewish or a self proclaimed socialist.

  336. 336.

    NR

    @Elie:

    Did Bernie or his followers make any mistakes?

    Bernie himself could have done a much better job with the specifics of his proposals during the primary. He was good at communicating his vision, he was good at telling the story of the country he wanted to see, but he wasn’t there on specifics. And that definitely hurt him.

    His followers, some of them at least, also weren’t the best at making the case for him. Some of them were fucking obnoxious.

    See, I can admit when the people in my camp make mistakes. By contrast, except maybe for Doug J, I haven’t seen anyone here admit that any member of the Democratic establishment might have screwed up even though they have failed over and over and over again for eight years now and lost the entire country outside of the northeast and the west coast to the Republicans.

    Hillary Clinton’s ground game sucked. But is there any criticism at all of the highly paid consultants at the top of her campaign? Any admission that maybe, just maybe, they might have played a role in her loss? No, it’s all Bernie’s fault, and the Berniebros around here, all the time.

  337. 337.

    NR

    @EBT: Again: We don’t know whether Bernie Sanders would have won or lost. That’s a simple fact.

    Everything in your head about how he would have done is pure fantasy.

    And I’ve said over and over that we should fight voter suppression vigorously because securing the right of every eligible American to vote is the right thing to do.

  338. 338.

    Elie

    @NR:

    The Democratic party IS in a crisis. Some of the reasons for that have to do with demographics — that a lot of our support comes from urban and coastal areas and that our very success at progressive change has been vulnerable to racist and reactionary attacks. In the states where the right has taken control of state legislatures, there has been less a failure of message than a certain complacency that we had the numbers in the cities to stave off their opposition. Clearly we were wrong and on that there is no debate. Was the message wrong? Did we have to change the party to appeal to the so called white working class also? I don’t think so but I don’t think we had thought through how to deal with such rabid opposition. Obama took the hate and attack for years. Was he wrong to do that? Should he been more aggressive and obvious in his resistance? I think that is open to discussion and I would welcome that honest exploration. But I will not tolerate knee capping the Democrats as an end in itself. We need solutions not an internecine war with each other.

  340. 340.

    Elie

    @NR:

    I definitely think Hillary made mistakes as did the Democrats in other downticket races. We continue to struggle to find good candidates for local races. How do we build a constituency for the diversity that our party represents in rural areas that have become extremely resistant to diversity and the change it represents? Now THAT is a real issue which is tribal more than economic. How do we talk to people out here (I am in a red rural area) about preparing their kids to compete in a global world rather than rejecting the global economy and the diversity that comes with it? How do we get people to face reality and the very real science that should be running our decision making — that we have global climate change and very finite resources — that we need to grow more food but less people (yes, birth control!). I think Bernie’s solution that its all economic is just not correct. Yes, that is part of it but there is another deep psychosocial component involved with denying reality and cracking that problem that is not easy or immediately obvious for packaging into a message. We all have to be thinking about how to do it though.. and not wasting time relitigating what is already done and over with. We have to be respectful of each other and recognize that there is still a lot of pain — in my case, unbelievable pain about this outcome. It will take time to recover but it can’t take too much time since we are gonna have to be fighting soon… Remember that each time you have the impulse to poke your thumb in my or other Democrats’ eyes.

  341. 341.

    NR

    @Elie:

    Remember that each time you have the impulse to poke your thumb in my or other Democrats’ eyes.

    This is from comment #32:

    My goal is the permanent political destruction of Bernie Sanders, and the de-Bernification of the Democratic Party. Once that is accomplished, a rational center-left is triumphant.

    There are a lot of other people here who you should give the same advice you gave me.

    However, that being said, thank you for your rational and considered response. For what it’s worth, I don’t think the left wing of the party has all the answers. But given the Democratic party establishment’s overwhelming record of failure, I think it’s certainly time people started listening to us more. I’m tired of having my vote taken for granted. I’m tired of getting ignored when Democrats win and attacked when they lose. And I doubt I’m alone in feeling that way.

    I think there is value to be found in dialogue between all elements of the party. And even some people outside of it. We will have to work together if we want to mitigate the worst of the damage the Republicans are going to do.

  343. 343.

    Corner Stone

    @debbie: I suggest okra is some form of aline life they sent here long ago to try and one day terraform the planet’s surface.
    Anyone who says okra in a gumbo is good or even ok is an alien sympathizer and should be closely monitored. Fried okra is garbage and a cover for the vichy okra undercover alien force.
    Eyes out, keep a close watch.

  344. 344.

    Elie

    @NR:

    We will all, left, center and right progressives, have to figure out whether we get our brains on the right path or whether we are just gonna let the fascists run things down. My concern right now is if we are going to even have a government of laws still in place in two years much less four and what we are going to do to make sure that we do. I am tired of reading the blaming/shaming on both sides when the beast is already destroying years and years of progress. Please lets stop it! Yes, that goes for you also Mr Obama or anyone else kicking Hillary or whoever. STOP.IT.

  349. 349.

    debbie

    @LAC:

    My grandmother was from Georgia. I hated her fried okra, but I loved her fried green tomatoes. The tomatoes may have had batter on them, but they never let out trails of mucus.

  350. 350.

    Miss Bianca

    @EBT: Fried okra and fried chicken…if you can do both these things right (and a mean biscuit and gravy), you can call yourself a proper Southern cook. That would not be me…just an appreciater of others’ culimary talents!

  351. 351.

    Brachiator

    @NR:

    For what it’s worth, I don’t think the left wing of the party has all the answers. But given the Democratic party establishment’s overwhelming record of failure, I think it’s certainly time people started listening to us more. I’m tired of having my vote taken for granted. I’m tired of getting ignored when Democrats win and attacked when they lose

    Bill Clinton and Barack Obama both kicked ass and were extremely popular. Where is this failure you speak of? I don’t necessarily give a shit about you or your vote. Maybe you deserve to be ignored. The question is what policy and ideas you have to offer, and whether they are reasonable or just a unicorn’s fart.

    That said, I am tired of both the Clinton and Sanders bashing. The Clintons are done, and Sanders is going to have to do more than simply rehash the same tired shit he has been peddling for more than 20 years.

    Trump is the present problem, and the only question is how best to unify to oppose him.

  352. 352.

    Elie

    @Miss Bianca:

    I like okra and it imparts a special flavor to gumbo that is not substitutable at all. Also the texture which some don’t like but I do. Fried okra is ok but not tops on my list, though I do not hate it. There is a knack to the right breading to fry it successfully. When I eat okra I tip my hat silently to my African slave ancestors… that also makes it special to me like yams…

  353. 353.

    LAC

    @debbie: I had ones that were bite sized – cut in half. I do not remember them being slimy. My mother is Caribbean and she made them with tomatoes and spices in a stew and they were good. Unfortunately with her Alzheimer’s it is hard to get her remember her recipes, especially the ones that she could do without It being written down. I would love to have her goat meat mutton. Slow cooked and so good. Again another acquired taste. :)

  354. 354.

    Elie

    @Brachiator:

    The question is what policy and ideas you have to offer, and whether they are reasonable or just a unicorn’s fart.

    This this this. We had all better be about this and stop with the knee capping shit. Its all so tiring and doesn’t solve anything.

  355. 355.

    Elie

    @LAC:

    I have my first goat leg roast that I am going to try for New Years for the first time. I am a little nervous but I love goat which is rich but very lean. Any ideas or recipes you are willing to share?

  356. 356.

    Brachiator

    @EBT:

    One of these days I will get the trick to proper fried okra down

    The best way to deal with okra. After frying, throw it in the trash. This method is also good to use with gifts of fruitcake.

    One of the reasons I hate okkra is because it is the only vegetable that comes with its own spit.

    But that’s just me. Your mileage may vary.

  357. 357.

    Elie

    @Brachiator:

    Not everyone likes everything but you don’t have to put it that way! Okra is a good vegetable that made up a big part of the diet of many southern folks. To me it is necessary for gumbo to taste like gumbo along with file seasoning. Its just required.. But you know, you are a big person and no one is gonna MAKE you eat anything. If you are older than 5 years old you generally can listen to what other people like without making ugly faces and saying “EWWWW”…

  358. 358.

    Brachiator

    @J R in WV:

    .But he never harassed Ivanka Trump to her face! Which all the MSM stories leave out, omitting the important item, thus making their stories all part of the big lie.

    The guy should have just sat down and STFU. There was no reason to make a scene, especially since Ivanka was with her children, who might have been alarmed no matter who the fool directed his comments to.

  359. 359.

    LAC

    @Elie: Mutton has been the way I had it, especially when we lived in the islands. I know it is a meat that needs a lot of love in the prep so that it is tender and cuts like butter. Be sure to marianate it over night. Coriander, cumin salt pepper slice up some onions and garlic. I am a big fan of grape seed oil as it does not overtake the flavors of the spices. Rub it all in and let it sit over night, maybe turning it over once If you like heat you may want to add a pepper, (scotch bonnet for you crazy kids).

  361. 361.

    Elie

    @LAC:

    Thanks for the tip (which I will take) I had planned to marinate but thank you for the suggested seasonings and the grape seed oil suggestion. If the weather is nice here (meaning dry), I was toying with putting on the Weber grill slow roast, but I will wait and see. I love smoky flavors. Was going to serve it with yams and collard greens and a nice fruit salad…

  363. 363.

    Brachiator

    @Elie:

    Not everyone likes everything but you don’t have to put it that way!

    Yeah, I do. Part of the fun of eating is to say Yummy! for the stuff you love and Yuck! at the stuff you hate.

    I was born and raised in Texas and mock friends and relatives for eating too many Southern fried foods soaked in grease, no matter how tasty it often might be. On the other hand, I took malicious glee at the reaction of college friends who could not deal with greens or grits during a Southern cooking lunch in the college dining hall.

  369. 369.

    Corner Stone

    @EBT:

    One of these days I will get the trick to proper fried okra down, and I will be able to die a happy woman.

    Walk outside to your nearest sidewalk about midnight, catch up a few slugs, slice them into sections, dredge and fry them.

  370. 370.

    Elie

    @rikyrah:

    I think about this constantly and ask myself what that will mean. I have no doubt that much will be asked of us….I also know that most of us are just not used to fighting for much of anything… not for real fighting anyway. And I don’t mean physical violence necessarily. Mental violence in implied threat, in intimidation is as effective. The progressives can’t even hang together now as we see the Beast showing its fangs — we are still doing the Bernie/HIllary show. Gotta stop. RIGHT NOW.

  372. 372.

    Elie

    @Corner Stone:

    You and Brachiator need to have a time out. I called your mothers and they are coming up to get you and take you home. No milk and cookies for either of you tomorrow.

  373. 373.

    Corner Stone

    @Elie:

    I called your mothers and they are coming up to get you and take you home. No milk and cookies for either of you tomorrow.

    Funnily enough, my dad was the only okra eater in our family. Mom never could stand it. They both loved liver and onions, if that helps your gustatory sensibilities in any way.

  375. 375.

    Brachiator

    @Elie:

    .You and Brachiator need to have a time out. I called your mothers and they are coming up to get you and take you home.

    My opinion about okra is mild compared to my mother’s. And as her favorite child, she would have extra cookies waiting for me.

  376. 376.

    glory b

    @Brachiator: Hah! When I went to Tuskegee, they would sometimes serve chitterlings for dinner. Vegtables, chickens and pork grown and processed on campus by the agriculture and animal husbandry students. Beat that!

  377. 377.

    henqiguai

    @glory b(#376): Tuskegee; that don’t count. That’s like the locals, up here on one of the white-bread campuses (e.g. Boston College), boasting about their kickass boiled dinners on St. Patrick’s Day. If the locals can’t do the local culinary favorites right, they’re pointless.

  378. 378.

    tybee

    @NR:

    and now mister lonely shows up. lol

    bernie is dead politically. you, liberal and reggie (assuming you are all really different but just sound the same) need to find a new “hero”.

  380. 380.

    NR

    @Brachiator:

    Bill Clinton and Barack Obama both kicked ass and were extremely popular. Where is this failure you speak of?

    The failure that took the Democrats from controlling 27 state legislatures in 2009 to controlling 13 today, and took the Republicans from controlling 15 state legislatures in 2009 to controlling 33 today. Not to mention both houses of Congress.

  382. 382.

    AnotherBruce

    It looks like the Russian Commentators have all shown up. Are you guys still celebrating Putin’s glorious victory over Hillary? I’m sure you will be comfortable once your glorious puppet has the nuclear codes. Carry on comrades!

  383. 383.

    Applejinx

    If this is the resistance, that’s pretty sad. I’mma take my Senator and go home. This is not the resistance. This is the decline and fall of the Third Way, and is going to be useless.

    I am noticing that the people freaking out most epically are the ones that thought everything was going to be totally fine and all sunshine and roses if their President won, because she would believe all the right things and then everyone would be full of ambition and determination and America would be a shining city on a hill, and everyone could just live there, forget the stinky ol’ valleys and Loservilles full of oxycontin.

    It’s very hard to be properly sympathetic to people when you see THEIR world is being shattered, but their world was ruining your world. I guess it’s my fault for not living in the big city and trying to be the richest little software developer on the block. Guess I should have been more Republican all along, and then I’d have more to lose and could be this upset over the decline and fall of America.

    Now if it wasn’t enabling another douchebag empire (in Putin’s Russia) I might think it justice, but sadly it looks like just more entropy in action. It’s HARD to resist entropy, no wonder so few want to do it.

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