I think maybe that the first woman to get elected president will have to be a political prodigy, just as the first African-American president is a political prodigy. Kirsten Gillibrand is sharp as a tack. She got into Congress running in a heavily Republican district, and had to take many conservative positions to win. The moment she was appointed to the Senate, she turned on a dime and became one of the more liberal members of Congress. That’s how you do it, you cut the tail off all at once, not one inch at a time. And, hate it or love it, voting against all the Trump nominees is the smart move (via) for future Democratic presidential primaries:
She is the only senator to vote against all three of Trump’s cabinet appointments. Yesterday, 15 Senate Democrats voted to confirm Mike Pompeo, a noted pro-torture Islamphobe. This is pathetic. Why? Why would Chuck Schumer vote for Pompeo? Why would Sheldon Whitehouse do this, of all people? What does anyone get out of this? Do they legitimately think these are good choices? Do they think that this will mean Republicans will take Democratic voices seriously? No, of course not. It’s that even Schumer doesn’t understand the rules of the game, even after 8 years of fireeating extremism.
On the other hand, Gillibrand is running for president in 2020 and she is going to have an excellent message for Democratic primary voters: “I voted against every single person Donald Trump nominated for his Cabinet.” And that’s a pretty compelling message. That no one else seems to understand what is going to play in 2018 and 2020 is more than a little dispiriting. But hey, I’m sure a few Democratic votes for Betsy DeVos and Tom Price will totally get Manchin and Heitkamp legit home state cred!
It’s also the *right* thing to do on Pompeo, that’s for damn sure.
Villago Delenda Est
Chuck Schumer and Sheldon Whitehouse are ballless, dickless wonders.
Pass it on.
“This Reinhard Heydrich guy isn’t so bad. He’s a good fencer!”
Hunter Gathers
Gillibrand don’t play.
Give those pig fuckers, and the pig that they worship, nothing.
No life jackets. Nothing but dumptrucks of anvils.
tobie
Good for Gillibrand.
Don’t want to veer off topic at the start of a thread but I just read that gag orders, prohibiting all communication outside the administration, have been placed on the Departments of Interior and Transportation, the EPA, and the USDA. EPA’s grants have been frozen. Exec orders approving Keystone XL and North Dakota pipeline signed. The gag orders are hair-raising. Do we have any sunshine laws to stop this assault?
LAO
I originally had my doubts about her — but was very pleased to vote for her in 2012.
Oatler.
Pigs and farmers, eatin’ together, all in the same house! It’s un-natural I tells ya!
guachi
Gillibrand is running for President.
I’m stating the obvious. But the sooner her potential opponents realize it, the better for them.
LAO
@guachi: I cannot wait for Gillibrand to dismantle Andrew Cuomo.
MazeDancer
Saw an article, possibly spurious, that said Caroline Kennedy was considering a Senate run in NY. Against Schumer? Because against Gillibrand is a terrible idea.
Thinking it’s just gossip as she leaves Tokyo.
Or, maybe, if Gillibrand runs for President, Kennedy is thinking of running for Senate then?
Yarrow
Good for her. There is no upside for Dems in voting for Trump’s nominees. They are stupid to do so.
JordanRules
Very pleased with her no votes on all of the cabinet picks. Let the GOP do their own dirty work.
The Moar You Know
There’s absolutely no argument that can be made for voting for ANY of them, the GOP NEVER votes for ours, so why the fuck are Dems STILL voting to confirm GOP nominees?
MAKE THEM OWN IT, YOU STUPID FUCKERS
Yarrow
@MazeDancer: Didn’t she do that before and failed miserably almost before she got started? Or am I misremembering?
joel hanes
It’s also the *right* thing to do
And one can tell for sure, because DiFi found a reason not to do it.
Feh.
Kryptik
@tobie:
If we did, do you think we have anyone that could enforce them that aren’t subject to the same ham-fisted authority?
Svensker
Really disappointed to see Kaine’s name there — but reinforces my dismay when Hillz picked him. Fuck that centrist shit.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
To tell the truth, I’m schadenfreudishly pleased about Combover Caligula signing the DAPL and Keystone EOs.
I predicted it amid all the celebrating. I want to see the curved and studded Axe Pike of Failure driven deeply into the guts of the Sanders-Stein left and slowly twisted backward and forward in such a way to make the pain so wrenching and unmistakable that they never utter a fucking word in public again beyond a “thanks for helping us move toward our agenda – what work do you want from us now?”
I want people to burn their Sanders signs and to scrape their Stein stickers off their cars with butcher knives.
comrade scott's agenda of rage
Of course McCaskill voted for this bastard.
She was at the Women’s March in STL. I was amazed she had the courage to do that.
But now I see Claire has reverted to being her typical, frightened Democrat. This ain’t gonna help you in 2 years dear.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@MazeDancer: I like Caroline Kennedy, but unless she has some serious retail politics chops she’s keeping under wraps, I would hope she doesn’t do it. IIRC from last time this happened, she feels very strongly about the family legacy, particularly Teddy
Just saw Sherrod Brown is going to vote for Ben Carson. It’s little more than symbolic at this point, but I don’t quite get it.
trollhattan
Have liked Gillibrand since she first hit the senate so if she’s positioning herself for a run–yay. Her energy is infectious and energy is what we need.
The Moar You Know
@tobie: Sadly, this is as legal as praying on Sunday. And think about all the problems that could have been avoided had Obama slapped one of these on the FBI’s twitter account (and why does the FBI need a Twitter account?).
Love sunshine, but the idea that these agencies need FB and Twitter accounts never made any sense to me and never will. Getting that info out is what…oh God…reporters are for. We are screwed, people.
SFAW
@guachi:
She’ll get destroyed — her missing e-mails, her private server, her key role in getting Amb. Stevens killed in Benghaziiii!!!!!, her kidnapping of the Lindbergh baby, her passing secret info to the Rosenbergs, teaching the 9/11 hijackers how to fly passenger jets — the list goes on and on.
The sad thing is, I expect Shitgibbon/Dense/Bannon/KARiefenstahl to try a ton of that. And by that time, the MSM lapdogs will be in full lapdog-mode.
But I hope I’m here to vote for her.
gex
OT: I read an article about turmoil in Trump’s team (WaPo maybe?) where current Republicans compared Kelly Anne Conway/Steve Bannon with the likes of Ed Meese/Jim Baker. And honest to god, I felt bad for Meese and Baker.
hovercraft
Like Doug, I was initially dismayed when Paterson appointed her, but she has far exceeded my expectations. She is good senator. I would be proud to support a run by her for president.
tobie
@Kryptik: Actually I do think that if there are sunshine laws the administration can be sued. I’m not a lawyer, so I’d like to hear from others who have insight here.
But thinking about potential nominees for the Democratic Party in 2020 seems a little besides the point right now. An executive order has been issued preventing Interior, Transportation, the EPA and USDA from communicating with the public. Gov’t of by, by, and for the people has shut off from the people. This is an ambush on our principles of government. I don’t know what of our country will be left in three months.
guachi
Gillibrand even found a principled reason to vote against Mattis thatt wasn’t about Mattis himself but the principle of civilian control.
tobie
@The Moar You Know: Their websites are being scrubbed! They can’t issue press releases, say, about levels of lead detected in municipality’s water supply. No warnings if there’s a toxic waste leak somewhere. I don’t give a hoot about twitter but that is not what we’re talking about here.
Mike J
Sen. Brown: Trump said he’s working with you on a replacement plan… Is that true?
Price: It’s true that he said that, yes.
Betty Cracker
I like Gillibrand a lot and would be happy to have the opportunity to vote for her.
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: I understand the sentiment, but that’s just as likely as the hardest core Trumpsters ever owning up to the fact that they’ve been conned. People who supported Sanders in the primary and Clinton in the general are Democrats. People who are still taunting Democrats about Trump, those still whining about Sanders getting screwed by the DNC and Stein voters never were and never will be a reliable bloc for the Dems.
rikyrah
Doesn’t Gillbrand’s voice sound like a child?
Optics.
Appreciate the votes, but optics.
Ronnie Pudding
They are voting for some of them so as not to be accused of reflexively opposing them all.
“I agree that the President deserves some deference in nominees. I fact, I voted for several Trump nominees, but Jeff Sessions really goes to far.”
It’s not terrible reasoning, although it doesn’t speak to the base or the blogosphere. It’s not like their votes were needed to confirm these guys. You pick your spots.
mai naem mobile
I like Gillibrand. I think if Hilz hadn’t run she would have run. She’s got a decent story and a photogenic family. I also wold like to see Ash Carter on the ticket. I know he would be an older white guy but he’s got a good bio and his wife’s cool too. Also,I have no idea if he would even be interested.
Brachiator
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
It didn’t take much to predict it. I don’t really see the connection to Stein-Sanders hatred.
schrodingers_cat
@tobie: Destroying the country one institution at a time. Good job, Republicans.
cmorenc
@Yarrow:
That was because in the circumstances (interim appointment to fill Hillary Clinton’s Senate seat when she resigned to become SoS) – too many people felt it would have been handed to Caroline Kennedy because of her name, rather than on the merits. It might be very different if she has to earn it from the get-go in an open primary and general election for the seat.
rikyrah
@The Moar You Know:
Yes.
No need to vote for one friggin’ one.
hovercraft
@gex:
Lies And Leaks: Day Three Of The Trump Administration
We are in the fourth day of the Trump regime, and two things are happening. Lies are flowing out of the mouth of the President with unremitting frequency, and leaks are pouring out of the White House just as fast.
Lies!
First, the Big Lie of the Day. Pay attention, because this is surely Trump’s way of soothing his bruised ego while also laying the foundation for a national Voter ID law.
According to the Washington Post, Trump met with Congressional leaders today and lied to their faces.
Two people familiar with the meeting said Trump spent about 10 minutes at the start of the bipartisan gathering rehashing the campaign. He also told them that between 3 million and 5 million illegal votes caused him to lose the popular vote.
This is demonstrably false, and has been debunked over and over again. It must really sting for him to know he barely won the electoral college but lost the popular vote by millions.
As a side note, let’s check up on the media to see how they’re doing with their headlines. Oh, look! One of them forgot to mention the words “false” or “lie”!
One of these is not like the others!
Leaks!
There’s a lot of Game of Thrones jostling going on right now. Or maybe it’s Hunger Games. Whatever it is, the leaks are flowing like water through a sieve.
The broader power struggles within the Trump operation have touched everything from the new administration’s communications shop to the expansive role of the president’s son-in-law to the formation of Trump’s political organization. At the center, as always, is Trump himself, whose ascent to the White House seems to have only heightened his acute sensitivity to criticism.
Poor snowflake.
Trump has been resentful, even furious, at what he views as the media’s failure to reflect the magnitude of his achievements, and he feels demoralized that the public’s perception of his presidency so far does not necessarily align with his own sense of accomplishment.
This is what he’s putting energy into? What’s going to happen when he actually has a REAL emergency?
And then there’s the infighting. Kushner v. Conway. Kushner v. Mercer. All served with a side of snark.
Efforts to launch an outside group supporting Trump’s agenda have stalled amid fighting between Kushner loyalists, such as the campaign’s data and digital strategist Brad Parscale, and conservative donor Rebekah Mercer, according to people familiar with the tensions. Major disputes include who would control the data the outside group would use, with Mercer advocating for Cambridge Analytica, a firm in which her father is invested, and who would control the lucrative contracts with vendors, these people said.
Two people close to the transition also said a number of Trump’s most loyal campaign aides have been alarmed by Kushner’s efforts to elbow aside anyone he perceives as a possible threat to his role as Trump’s chief consigliere. At one point during the transition, Kushner had argued internally against giving Conway a White House role, these two people said.
Because Conway operates outside of the official communications department, some aides grumble that she can go rogue when she pleases, offering her own message and promoting herself as much as the president. One suggested that Conway’s office on the second floor of the West Wing, as opposed to one closer to the Oval Office, was a sign of her diminished standing. Though Conway took over the workspace previously occupied by Valerie Jarrett, who had been Obama’s closest adviser, the confidant dismissively predicted that Trump would rarely climb a flight of stairs.
One precaution about getting snarky about these leaks and the apparent chaos. This is exactly what he did during his campaign too, and everyone thought every misstep would be the end of his campaign, while it instead just made him more popular with his True Believers. So I’m not kidding myself into thinking that any of this means he won’t get the agenda he wants. It does, however, point to a deeper dysfunction within Trump himself, and his narcissistic need to constantly have his ego stroked. That’s disturbing.
Brachiator
@rikyrah:
Uh, maybe acoustics.
Never heard her voice.
ETA: Just listened to her speech at the Democratic Convention. Her voice was not an issue.
I guess though, that people will have to adjust to a difference in the range of women’s voices compared to past male politicians. Hillary Clinton was knocked by dopes for her voice. And yet, I can’t stand to listen to Trump’s nasally whiny drone.
schrodingers_cat
@Brachiator: I hit the mute button, on the rare occasions that I have seen him on my TV machine.
Mary G
@guachi: Yeah, I saw that Matthis was confirmed 98-1 and I thought to myself, self, if that one person isn’t Wilmer, he or she is my 2020 candidate. Kirsten FTW. We need to come right back with a woman to show we’re not yesterday’s Democrats who cave and apologize for being liberal when we lose and she seems like the right person at the right time.
gene108
Her husband works on Wall Street. Not sure how to slide this past the lefty purity brigade. She is literally in bed with Wall Street.
PJ
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: Because some people didn’t bow down and worship Hillary as our anointed savior, you’re happy that these pipelines are going through, that native peoples will have their rights ignored, that the environment in these areas may be damaged? Christ, you’re an asshole. I expect you’ll be really happy when the ACA is repealed and thousands start to die because of it.
rikyrah
Wasn’t Gillbrand one of the few Dems to stand up for ACORN?
She seems to vote the right way…and her voting against Mattis is definitely a plus to me.
cmorenc
@tobie: The exec order regarding the N Dakota pipeline is sheer fuck-you malevolence by the Trump admin, because unlike Keystone, Obama did not terminate the project but just delay it in order to plot an alternative route around the NA reservation and water quality problems. It would have been built, but along a less problematic route.
rikyrah
@gene108:
She’s from NY. What else do you expect?
I bet that she’s released her tax returns, unlike another hero of the pony and unicorn brigade.
Yoda Dog
@Mike J:
lol… christ the fucking chutzpah on display daily. It is truly somethign to behold, these fucking people.. They might as just put a huge middle finger up on whitehouse.gov and be done with the dance altogether.
They’re replacement plan is going to be “fuck off and die” and they can barely contain their giggles about it. If there’s justice, we’ll see them all one day down in the 8th circle of hell rotting together.
FlipYrWhig
I’m old enough to remember when the Kos Kidz were bleating that appointing Gillibrand was the worst betrayal of liberalism EVAR! Because something something corporatism, natch.
Major Major Major Major
@rikyrah: I should also point out that the GOP does, in fact, vote for ours, most recently as part of a 94-3 vote for John Kerry.
@PJ: Eh, I can see how one would wish misfortune & bad feelings on them without actually wishing misfortune on people, like how we hope that Trump voters lose their healthcare and go broke when their mom gets cancer.
Kay
The FBI director apparently plans on hiding behind the same rule he violated. I guess he will never have to explain his actions and we’re all just supposed to drop any questions and grant him unearned credibility as a birth right.
I’d literally rather hire a contractor to investigate Trump.
gene108
@hovercraft:
He has an emergency. The tornado damage in MS and GA. But he can probably coast on the Obama holdovers for this one.
FlipYrWhig
@gene108: The lefty purity brigade likes to invent litmus tests that people they already dislike will fail. Like the one where Tim Kaine is a “centrist.”
Brachiator
@schrodingers_cat:
Yeah, that seems like the way to go.
NobodySpecial
I’m not holding high hopes for any Dem politician captured by AIPAC and the Israeli lobby. By the time we get out from under their influence, it will be too late for a two state solution.
elm
@gene108: The lefty purity brigade is not and never will be on my side in any meaningful way, fuck ’em.
@NobodySpecial: It’s already decades late for a 2 state solution — Israel won’t consider anything that could be a normal Palestinian state. Let Palestinians vote for the Knesset as full citizens.
JordanRules
@rikyrah:
Bloop! She did indeed release 5 years worth in 2012.
@FlipYrWhig: They’ll start doing it again if she does run for POTUS.
NR
@Ronnie Pudding: Are we really bringing back the “keeping our powder dry” argument from the W Bush years? It didn’t work back then and it won’t work any better today. And it’s a bad analogy in any case. Standing up for what’s right isn’t like “powder” that gets used up, it’s like a muscle that gets stronger every time you use it.
Major Major Major Major
@NobodySpecial: It’s been too late for a two-state solution for years.
@Kay: Didn’t I see a headline that just today they said they’ve cleared Flynn? Didn’t seem like they gave a lengthy press conference about how Flynn is evil and horrible but, technically, did nothing wrong. Yes, here it is.
guachi
Re: Gillibrand’s voice – Listened as well to her 2016 DNC speech. She sounds like she could be a girl in college. I don’t think this is necessarily a bad thing. It makes her sound younger than she is (50). Delivery would matter more in this case.
Also, I think she’s amazingly beautiful, if optics matter.
Old Dan and Little Anne
I am very proud of Gillibrand. I am going do find time to call and thank her this week as she is my Senator.
J.
I’ve been thinking Gillibrand should/will run for a while now. But also keep yours eyes on Chris Murphy. (I think they would be make a great ticket, though doubt if the rest of the country would vote for two liberal Northeasterners.)
Calouste
@The Moar You Know: There were GOP votes for almost all of Obama’s nominees. There were significantly more unanimous confirmations than contentious confirmations.
FlipYrWhig
@J.: I love Chris Murphy.
Kay
If the russian government or the FBI interfere in the next election, can we call a time out and not hold it until the perpetrators are identified and stopped?
What if they decide there should be no opposition in Congress at all? Will we bury that too?
What would it take for anyone to admit there’s a problem? An actual coup? It’s nice that all these powerful people want to forgive and forget but this isn’t really something they can forgive. They did it. They also benefited from it. They can’t really take the position that they’re burying this for the good of the people when none of us consented to them burying it.
hovercraft
@rikyrah:
Here she is at the convention last year. Judge for yourselves.
tobie
@PJ: Do you have any sense of irony? Worshippers of St. Bernard continued to rally to him, even as the party resoundingly rejected him in a primary. Their whole attitude was, “Give us everything we want, or we’ll pack up and leave.” And enough did that, choosing not to vote or to vote for Stein or Johnson, or to write in St. Bernard’s name, in an election where the Democratic candidate was a facing an unvarnished fascist. And now those same phuckers want to take over the party, whose members by and large do not agree with their vision. You’re just like Republicans. You break institutions, and then say, “Look, they’re broken, we need to take over from the former members.”
zhena gogolia
@FlipYrWhig:
I do too! He’s my senator. Blumenthal ain’t bad either.
bmoak
FYI, upstate progressives in my neck of deep-red NY (i.e North Pennsyltucky) do not like Gillibrand at all. Bernie won the primary in my county, and to that crowd, Gillibrand is another self-serving corpodem literally in bed with Wall Street. I over heard a table of them at lunch a few weeks ago, and they were bemoaning the fact that Zephyr Teachout is the only Dem in New York State worth supporting.
Major Major Major Major
Gillibrand sounds fine. Perhaps a touch young, but well within the established realm of how everyday adult humans sound, as opposed to the man-mincing smarmy cockweasel we have in office.
@bmoak: They sound stupid. That sounds like the sort of thing I hear out here in San Francisco. There are legitimate criticisms of people but those are stupid.
NR
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: The “moderate” left and the far right have so much in common it’s scary. This comment is exhibit A of that.
p.a.
@Kay: Why not? Same gameplan worked in 2000.
XTPD
@tobie: I’m pretty sure PJ was a solid Clinton supporter.
low-tech cyclist
I’ve had a crush on Gillibrand since this pic, the one where she’s getting sworn in by Biden, with a big smile on her face as her kid climbs all over her.
So I’m glad to see her taking all the right positions, and making all the right votes, now.
Jeffro
I’m good with Gillibrand and good with her voting “no” on all Trump nominations. Hey, at least they’re getting a vote, unlike many Obama ones.
Dems ought to be careful, these cabinet nominees as well as any votes on ACA replacement bullshit, Medicaid block grants, and Medicare voucher programs are going to be the litmus tests in 2020, just like the Iraq War vote was in 2008. There is no part of the Trump/Bannon agenda that a Dem should be supporting in any way.
Mnemosyne
@PJ:
You had an opportunity to oppose genuine, home-grown fascism, and you failed because you couldn’t get over your misogynistic hatred of Hillary.
So, yes, you enabled this. Congratulations. You had a chance to avoid this outcome, and you whiffed.
NR
@tobie:
Evidence?
Jeffro
Btw my teenage daughter just texted me and said, “If you need a laugh, Google ‘Sean Spicer’ and ‘Dippin’ Dots’ “. The next generation, it will be a witty and left-leaning one.
ThresherK
@zhena gogolia: I’ve been a fan of Blumenthal’s since back when. Colin McEnroe likened him to Lassie (in a good way) as the CT AG, always alerting us and doing something about kids falling down wells.
The more I hear about Gillibrand the better she sounds.
Major Major Major Major
Senate Democrats call Trump’s bluff on infrastructure with a new $1 trillion plan
brighid
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: I feel the same. Sanders is a fraud and I would love to see a smart woman take his Senate seat. But Vermont loves the guy. Progressives and dems worship at the altar of saint bernie. In my 20 years in VT I have never understood the hold he has over people here. Gillabrand is the real deal and I hope she is our 2020 nominee.
Peale
@Jeffro: Yep. Which is why to be on the safe side, its time to find a governor. I know they are an endangered species and the two highest profile ones are either too old or too in bed with the “good Republicans of the home state” to run, but I worry about the Democrat love affair with senators. They vote on things. They have long histories and its too easy to pick apart those votes and make them into anti-progressive monsters.
hovercraft
@bmoak:
US House 2016
John Fasso 54.3 % 164,800
Zephyr Teachout 45.7 % 138,800
Governor of New York 2014 Primary
Andrew Cuomo 62.9 % 361,180
Zephyr Teachout 33.5 % 192,210
Apparently they are in the minority, she has run, and she has been rejected.
Major Major Major Major
@hovercraft: Feature, not bug. These types of people prefer to lose.
The Moar You Know
@NR: Math is not hard. Trump’s margin of “victory”, subtract votes cast for Wilmer and Stein in the three battleground states, Clinton wins.
The reality of the situation is that St. Bernie and Stein voters threw this election to a real-life fascist.
schrodingers_cat
Neo Russian is here since someone invoked the name of his deity.
SFAW
@hovercraft:
I dunno, looks like she’s got a couple of extra pounds on her.
[And before anyone jumps down my throat: I’m just riffing on what some as-yet-unnamed moron troglodyte Senator said about her, a couple of years ago, after putting his hands on her waist, from behind. ]
Voice is fine, as far as I’m concerned
Mnemosyne
@The Moar You Know:
Don’t bother. I’ve provided the collaborator with literally dozens of links showing that the Berniebro/Stein contingent threw the election to Trump, and he still lacks the basic math skills to understand those links.
NR
@The Moar You Know:
That assumes that every single person who voted for Johnson and Stein would have voted for Clinton had they not been on the ballot. What’s your evidence supporting that assumption?
NR
@Mnemosyne: You’ve provided nothing except your own unsupported assertions, but I’m not surprised that you consider those to be “evidence.”
SFAW
@NR:
Unsurprising that you haven’t gotten any smarter since your boy “won” the Electoral College, comrade.
ETA: Sorry, I should have written “tovarishch,” make it easier for you.
Thoroughly Pizzled
When one looks closely, the only argument that Stein/Nader/Johnson voters ever have is that someone else is to blame for Trump. They can never name anything GOOD that throwing their vote away accomplished. I want to hear one way that the nation is more progressive because of people voting for Jill Stein.
Mnemosyne
@NR:
I’ll put it another way for you: Stein and Johnson voters had an opportunity to oppose outright fascism, and they failed. Their widdle fee-fees about Big Mean Hillary and her vagina were more important to them than universal healthcare, pot legalization, free college, and the Keystone pipeline.
They chose to vote against everything they claimed to stand for. They are morally bankrupt morons who, like you, need to STFU and sit down before they cause even more damage with their rank stupidity.
You collaborated to get this result, and you continue to collaborate with the fascists.
Major Major Major Major
@schrodingers_cat: Indeed.
Well, you kids have fun, I’m going to go do something more enjoyable than watch a conversation with NR unfold, like clipping my cat’s nails with a steak knife.
hovercraft
@schrodingers_cat:
Dammit Juicers, we only use WILMER here, we do not need the defenders of the one true savior polluting every thread. Oops did I just give away the game ;-o
The Moar You Know
@NR: Not playing the never-ending “evidence/qualifications” game here, NovoRussian. I’m satisfied, as is every single poster on this blog, of what the reality of the situation is, which is that Sanders and Stein voters threw the election.
As to what you think, nobody here gives a shit what you think. Your aims and goals have been obvious from the first time you ever posted here.
Mary G
I have unsubscribed from most email lists run by Dem. Senators, but I agree with Chris Murphy as well as Gillibrand. He is one of the rare ones I still receive because he writes about issues and not just “Republicans bad, Democrats good, send money.”
His campaign sent one Monday authored by his wife, Cathy Holahan, that started:
I didn’t send any more money because I am already contributing $5 a month towards his 2018 re-election, but I was so impressed. Some of these “Proud to Stand with Women” Dems could learn a few lessons.
NR
@SFAW: Actually you guys have a lot more in common with Trump supporters than I do. You both believe that something is true just because you want to believe it’s true. I’m the one asking what the facts are.
Mnemosyne
@NR:
You collaborated with white supremacists and misogynists to get Trump elected, and you continue to do his dirty work. No one here should mistake you for anything other than the right-wing white supremacist troll you are.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
A momentary segue from my deep Bernie-Stein hate.
Wingnut tries to tell Martina Navratilova that she needs to school herself on communism.
Jeffro
@Peale: I’m good with someone who’s positive, relatively young in age and/or has a relatively short record, regardless of whether it is a governor, senator, or representative. The names I throw out there most often are Harris, Booker, Gillibrand, Hickenlooper, and Castro but I’m sure there are plenty more. Please just no retreads and/or baby boomers, fellow Dems!
hovercraft
@SFAW:
You know the comments about her weight, hair, voice and everything else about her would be non-stop. From those criticizing her for putting her ambition before her young children to her sartorial choices, it would not stop, but I’d welcome it. 2016 showed them for what they are, she doesn’t have the baggage that Hillary had, so I think many more women would bristle at such criticisms. At least I hope they would, giver 53 % of white women voted the way they did, who the hell knows.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@NR:
Hillary is clearly the real warmonger.
She also doesn’t really care about kids, also, too.
NR
@The Moar You Know:
So in other words, you have no evidence. Good to know.
So you admit that you’re satisfied with the “reality” of something you have absolutely no evidence of. You just believe it’s true and that makes it reality in your eyes.
Like I said: the “moderate” left and the far right have so much in common it’s scary.
Fair Economist
@SFAW:
And, unfortunately, the purity ponies will parrot that, along with attacks on her impure positions while representing upstate, and the fact that she probably shakes hands and smiles when talking to bankers from her home state.
Brachiator
@Major Major Major Major:
How does Trump propose to pay for his infrastructure plan? Smoke and mirrors?
Norbrook
I definitely think Gillibrand is someone to watch for 2020. I watched her first campaign here (I lived in the next district), and she won, in what was a “solid red” district. That election campaign was tough, nasty, and pretty damn vicious, and she gave as good as she took. What’s equally important is that the next election after that, she absolutely crushed her Republican opponent, with almost 60% of the vote. Since her rise to the Senate, she’s done nothing but look even better. She’s smart, tough, and any Republican who thinks she’s a pushover is going to wonder what truck hit him.
Yoda Dog
@bmoak:
I’m sorry, was there a point here in any of this above? Because if so, I missed it completely.
Major Major Major Major
@Jeffro:
Fine with any, my preferences are Hick and Booker.
@hovercraft: Women can hate women too. Many do.
@Brachiator: It’s at the link. Lots of private investment, aka giving government-owned things to corporations.
Taylor
Still have vivid memories of NR doing victory laps here in the hours after Trump’s victory, while people were in shock.
Thread after thread.
A truly loathsome specimen of alleged humanity.
Please do not feed his need for attention.
Mnemosyne
@NR:
Fascist collaborator says what?
Gelfling 545
@hovercraft: my first reaction was “oh, sh1t!”. I have been more that content with her, however and consider us lucky to have her.
Comrade Scrutinizer
All y’all talk like there are going to be free and fair elections going forward. Quaint!
NR
@Mnemosyne: I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again: if I was a right-winger, I’d be cheering you guys on. Because you’re the ones who have lost the entire country to the Republicans over the last eight years. And you continue to support the same party establishment and political approach that has resulted in nearly unprecedented right-wing dominance of the United States.
You’re the ones who have enabled the Republican takeover. I’m trying to get you guys to stop doing that.
James Powell
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
Well, as long as you don’t hold any grudges.
Mnemosyne
@NR:
Fascist collaborator says what?
pamelabrown53
@NR: #68
Actually, I disagree:
The “moderate” left and the far right have so much in common it’s scary. This comment is exhibit A of that.
Mnemosyne
@Comrade Scrutinizer:
But it’s okay, because the Berniebros and Stein voters expressed themselves at the polls, which is way more important than preventing fascists from taking over our country.
I sure hope my district wins the Hunger Games this year!
PJ
@Mnemosyne: You have an extremely irrational hatred of anyone who doesn’t think Hillary was all that. It overrides everything with you. I hope that someday you can learn empathy and begin to see that people who have a different perspective are not necessarily your enemy.
I don’t hate Hillary. I voted for her. I would have preferred to have voted for a better candidate (Biden, frankly) but that was not my choice. I was suckered by the polls, but if I had had any idea that Trump might win, I would have spent my spare time in 2016 in PA or OH or WI knocking on doors and registering people and driving them to the polls, and I regret that I did not do that.
And because I am such a misogynist and fascist supporter, I went down to DC for the march on Saturday, because I believed that adding one more person to a march of tens of thousands was important (I had no idea it would be half a million people). And it was important, to me and to the people who went, and I hope to the people who didn’t go but also support the cause, and I hope to the Republicans as well, who can see that there are millions of people fired up to bring them down. But you, apparently, went to Disneyland on Saturday, because that was very important to you. And then you moan about how all is lost and we should all curl up and die. Give me a fucking break.
Major Major Major Major
@Comrade Scrutinizer: Oh, shush. We’re supposed to not plan for them, and then be surprised when 2018 doesn’t go our way? And god, where does griping get you?
@Gelfling 545: I remember not being enthused when she was picked (too cozy with wall street? I honestly don’t recall why) but she’s won me over.
hovercraft
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho
@Kay: @Major Major Major Major: I’m eager to hear Adam’s insight on this. He has indicated that it’s an entirely separate FBI unit that’s looking into the RU stuff.
Gelfling 545
@FlipYrWhig: she had been, by far, less progressive in her previous position. That she has championed liberal positions has been a pleasant surprise but a lot of us were disheartened in the beginning.
Yarrow
@Mnemosyne: Hey, how are you doing today?
Mnemosyne
@PJ:
No, I have an extremely irrational hatred of anyone who enabled Trump’s election.
If you’re still whining about how horrible Hillary was, you enabled Trump’s election. No amount of after-the-fact marching will change the fact that, by repeating and emphasizing right-wing talking points against Hillary and the Democratic Party you enabled Trump’s election.
Sorry, it’s not about your iddle fee-fees anymore. Either you STFU with your carping and get behind the Democratic Party, or you are a goddamned collaborator.
rikyrah
@Jeffro:
Tell it
Tell it
Tell it
There is absolutely NO WAY to explain votes going along with the GOP to Democratic voters like me.
Jeffro
Btw here’s our Bootlicker of the Day award: y’all would do better to get your news directly from President Trumpov than the national librul media!!
Orwell lacked vision…
rikyrah
@Major Major Major Major:
The difference between a TRUE infrastructure/stimulus plan…
and, the privatization scam Cheeto Benito was proposing.
NR
@Mnemosyne: Well, thanks for admitting that you have no answer to the points I’ve made. It’s pretty sad that you’ve been reduced to this though.
NR
@Taylor: How about some links to these victory laps in the hours after the election? Because right now you sound a lot like Donald Trump, who vividly remembers a bunch of Muslims cheering after 9/11.
Jeffro
@Major Major Major Major: @rikyrah:
Perhaps some of us could call Schumer’s office to say a) sounds great! and b) keep pre-empting Trumpov with actual, reality-based, good plans for governance – the contrast is sorely needed.
I’ll add it to my Indivisible action calls for the day!! ;)
Mnemosyne
@Yarrow:
I think you can see. But, hey, the collaborators are scolding me because they went and displayed their feelings at the totally useless marches while Trump signed executive orders to cement his fascist agenda, so there’s that.
XTPD
@PJ: That said, there’s a difference between “people who didn’t think Hillary was all that” but still voted for Hillary,” and “people who despise her enough to throw away their votes in the general”. Granted, the BJ commentariat has a giant mad-on for Wilmer — although I’d place about 80% of the blame for that on farther-left primary butthurt (“why we can’t have nice things, basically”) — but Edmund’s original comment was directed towards the second group.
NR
@pamelabrown53: The commenter I was responding to was talking about how happy he was that the DAPL and Keystone projects were going to be approved. That’s a sentiment that’s common on the right.
Mnemosyne
@NR:
Fascist collaborator says what?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
MSNBC just did a report on the Mulvaney hearings (Trump’s budget director), and they’re reporting that Jeff Merkley held up a picture two inaugurations and got him to admit Obama’s crowd was bigger.
No mention of this:
I’m all for needling Trump, but his election was due, IMHO, in no small part from repeatedly promising not to touch SS and Medicare.
hovercraft
@Major Major Major Major:
Tell me about it, the harshest critics of women are other women. The other side knows this, and that’s why the Spokes Cobra and her ilk are so valuable, they provide them the cover they need.
11 Profound Photos From Black Women At The Women’s March
“Don’t forget: white women voted for Trump.”
To the 53 %, we will not let you forget what you did, we’ve been here before with your bullshit.
SFAW
@NR:
Yeah, yeah, whatever bullshit you have to tell yourself.
Given your obviously massive intellect, you should just stick with “I know you are, but what am I?” That’s one of your fallback positions, along with your other pro-Shitgibbon bullshit.
But if I were you, I’d ask for payment in RMB, not rubles — it’s a better bet going forward.
rikyrah
@Mnemosyne:
I have this issue with the Hoteps who still won’t apologize for what they did during this election cycle.
The Hunger Games are here, and they still won’t admit that they were wrong.
Mnemosyne
@pamelabrown53:
There’s no point in responding to the collaborator. I have literally spent years providing links for him that he doesn’t bother to read because he doesn’t want to disturb his beautiful mind. I am now done. If he hasn’t gotten a clue by now, he never will.
msdc
Is there anyone here who hates it?
Whatever her motives, Gillibrand is doing the right thing. Good for her.
NR
@Mnemosyne:
“If you’re not with us, you’re against us!”
Like I said: the “moderate” left and the far right have so much in common it’s scary.
PJ
@Mnemosyne: Jesus, Lady, how does voting for Hillary enable Trump’s election? You are certifiably insane.
Mnemosyne
@NR:
Fascist collaborator says what?
Major Major Major Major
@XTPD:
I might have opinions on the man but I don’t bring them up unless a leftier-than-thou type starts it. In my lived experience in San Francisco, the Berners are:
a) the only ones who mention it and
b) the ones who are first to say “why do Hillary supporters keep re-litigating the primary?”
Perhaps they’re not used to pushback. Perhaps they think the election results are prima facie evidence of their correctness. I don’t know, but they’re the ones leading the charge on both those items.
@hovercraft: Your link is, how you say, le broken.
pamelabrown53
@Major Major Major Major:
Heh. Actually clipped my kitteh’s nails this morning and my spouse is over the moon satisfied with me for saving her the trip and $$$ to the vet’s.
Also, I’m so sorry to have contributed to the devolution of NR’s thread jack.
gene108
@Mnemosyne:
To be fair, I do not know, if Johnson voters were into a liberal revolution. I think he probably drew a good bit of Never-Trump, Independent and Republican votes.
Calouste
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Oh dear. How long before the shitgibbon withdraws Mulvaney’s nomination due to insufficient fealty?
The Dems should do that in every nomination hearing. Bring up whatever the latest “alternate fact” is, and let the nominee contradict the shitgibbon and admit reality.
The Moar You Know
@Mnemosyne: I share your feeling of utter disgust and rage about the marches, after which, most of the marchers will go home, break their arms patting themselves on their backs for a job well done, and then DO NOTHING.
Protests don’t do jack shit. Sunkist Stalin’s fee-fee’s are certainly hurt, but he’s still president and will be for the next four years, and then we’ll all be shocked when the GOP pulls off another clean sweep of the country.
Until people start GETTING INVOLVED, and fuck, guys, you don’t have to run for president. Run for dogcatcher. School board. SOMETHING. And keep doing it every two years. Somebody’s gonna win, and that’ll be one less GOP shitbag enabling their agenda to destroy America. I’m running for an two-cycles uncontested state rep seat here in SoCal. I have no money, no resume, no link to the local Dem party at all (who are worse than useless, they endorse Republicans regularly). I will lose. Badly. But by God there are not going to be any fucking uncontested seats on my damn ballot anymore, because my name will be on it. Fight them even if you know you’re going to lose. Because…somebody will win, and elections don’t always turn out the way you think they will.
Ian G.
Ah, now I see why we use “Wilmer” here. I didn’t realize how quickly Marshal Petain would be roused from his grave by invoking St. Bernard of the Green Mountains.
NR
@SFAW:
In these very comments, I am asking for evidence. In these very comments, other people are saying that they believe things despite not having any evidence to support those beliefs.
It’s self-evident who’s flinging the bullshit here, and it ain’t me.
The Thin Black Duke
@Mnemosyne: I’m glad you’re back, Mnemosyne. And don’t let the assholes bring you down, fuck ’em.
SFAW
@James Powell:
It’s not a REAL grudge if it doesn’t continue for at least four generations
XTPD
@Major Major Major Major: This is also my impression from multiple online discussions; the point I was trying to make is that Bernie’s later campaign moves wouldn’t have been nearly as big a problem if a lot more people on the left weren’t such fucking babies. (I voted for Hillary in both the primary & general, BTW, and my opinion of her is broadly positive).
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne: Totally useless marches?
@The Moar You Know:
This seems prematurely… everything. I mean, ‘utter disgust and rage’?
gene108
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Yup. But I think Republicans are so far into Cleek’s Law territory that they’ll go along with gutting SS and Medicare, because liberals/Democrats are in favor of preserving the status quo.
Mnemosyne
@PJ:
I traveled to Nevada with Hillary’s campaign and registered voters in October. You know, when it actually mattered.
An after-the-fact march is lovely, but pointless.
PJ
@Mnemosyne: If you think the marches were useless, that they are some kind of liberal circle jerk, then you are literally repeating Republican talking points and you are useless to change in this country. And you should STFU, because you are trying to discourage people who want to work for positive change. (And, on a serious note, you are depressed and pessimistic and you want to spread that feeling to others. This is very unhealthy, and, while I am by no means a psyciatrist or play one on TV, I think you should seek help.)
Yoda Dog
@NR:@taylor: I remember you here after the election. Not going to waste time looking up unhappy links or feeding you any further, just wanted to drop in and say FUCK YOU from me as well.
NR
@gene108: No, you don’t understand. Every single person who voted for Stein, Johnson, any other third-party candidate, wrote someone in, or didn’t vote at all was actually a vote for Hillary that was unjustly stolen from her. Hillary was entitled to their votes, dammit, and they didn’t give them to her. That’s how it works, dontcha know.
hovercraft
@Major Major Major Major:
Sorry , let’s try again.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/profound-photos-from-black-women-at-the-womens-march_us_588649b5e4b070d8cad44a12?qyumbg5bzi14xnu3di
ETA: Fixed that for you and me ;- )
Major Major Major Major
@PJ:
…and far-left purity pony talking points.
D58826
@NR: can some one ban this jerk, in no mood for his trolling.
lets see
1. gop is pushing legislation to sell off the national parks
2. gop is pushing legislation to allow trump to invalidate regulations w/o any review
3. states are passing legislation to make protesting a crime but in ND it will be ok if you run your car into a protester.
4. N. Carolina is pushing a law to make it illegal to say mean things about the ex-governor
5. N. Carolina is pretty much owned by Art Pope
I don’t think we will have to worry about an election in 2020 at this rate.
The Moar You Know
@PJ: Explain to me how a march reverses the results of an election.
SFAW
@NR:
Yeah, no doubt that when Mnem wrote “I’ve provided the collaborator with literally dozens of links showing that the Berniebro/Stein contingent threw the election to Trump,” she was channeling Baghdad Boob and KellyAnne Riefenstahl.
I realize you have to write that, so that yer momma won’t think you’re a liar, but that doesn’t work on most of the rest of us.
Did Shitgibbon or Vlad at least get you those hard-to-get grandstand tickets for the parade last Friday? To show their appreciation, that is.
pamelabrown53
@NR: #131
The commenter was using hyperbole to voice a frustration. For me, it’s more like despair. Unless/until my fellow lefties can discern where activism must temporarily join with others less ideological then we’re going to repeat and accelerate the cycle where we barely lose, i.e., win the popular vote, but can’t dig out from the pit that these elections put us. Losing in service to purity; I cannot abide.
NR
@Yoda Dog: Hey, it’s another person who believes something but refuses to provide any evidence for it.
For the record, I remember one comment I made that might fall into the category being described here. But to my recollection, it was days after the election and was in response to someone blaming liberals for the election results. I do regret that one comment, but so far as I remember it was the only one. Now it’s possible I could be forgetting some other comments – but this is why links would be helpful.
NR
@D58826: How is it trolling to ask people to provide evidence for their assertions?
? Martin
@hovercraft:
I would normally push against this, but 538 has data to show that it’s not incorrect. Men showed less unconscious gender bias than women did. That’s not to say that men show none, far from it, but you can see some of that in how women make decisions for themselves (STEM careers, etc). But look at black men showing us how to do it in that last chart.
The Thin Black Duke
@The Moar You Know: Maybe it’s me, but I find moral “victories ” less than satisfying. Bottom line, until people motherfucking vote, it don’t mean shit.
Mnemosyne
@PJ:
I’m going to see if I can get the OFA fellowship to learn community organizing. What are you going to do other than march?
I’m going to work for positive change by getting trained to be a community organizer. Moar is going to run for office. Suzanne and others have signed up to become precinct captains. One commenter in Iowa is calling her representatives every single day. And I know I’m forgetting other people who are also taking actual action.
Are you going to do anything in particular, or just march?
I’m pissed off at how many people seem to think that marching and taking no further action is sufficient for change. And I’m pissed off at how many people are still whining about how Hillary was a terrible candidate that nobody liked when she got 2.8 million more votes than Trump.
So, thank you, but I’m not depressed. I’m pissed off at how many people seem to think that marching around for a day is sufficient action to stop a goddamned fascist.
But thank you for your concern.
SFAW
@PJ:
… then you should stop talking like one. Although, with Shitgibbon at the helm, maybe “practicing medicine without a license” is no longer a problem, so you might be safe.
NR
@SFAW:
Except she hasn’t provided any evidence of anything she claims. I’ve read her links (and there were far from “dozens” of them btw) and they don’t say what she claims they say.
So yes, if there is evidence that the so-called “Berniebro/Stein contingent” threw the election to Trump, it would be helpful to provide it. So far, no one has.
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne:
Could you provide an example of such a person?
PJ
@The Moar You Know: Do you have a time machine? I know I don’t. The point is to motivate people to oppose the Republicans now, and win elections in the future. This is the only democracy we have, and we have to use it as best we can. People who are discouraged, who feel alone, powerless, or depressed are much less likely to get up and do something. This is exactly what the Republicans want, which is why they belittle the march and call it just a bunch of whining crybabies who are sad that they lost the election (which seems to be your view as well). Marching encourages people, makes them feel connected and part of something bigger, makes them want to do something. You can think it’s all BS, but this is where everything starts. So feel free to dismiss it and spend your free time getting people to give up on comments boards, but there is a real world out there and real people who want to change it.
Mnemosyne
@Major Major Major Major:
Okay, I did go a little further than I meant to. The marches were not useless as long as they lead to concrete action.
Betty Cracker
@The Moar You Know: Man, that’s some utterly infuriating, dismissive bullshit mansplaining right there. Ugh.
SFAW
@Mnemosyne:
In fairness to the marchers: if the turnout gets turned into a wave of activism, then it will have added value.
Otherwise, I agree, it’s just another Occupy Wall Street circle-jerk.
Mnemosyne
@NR:
Hey, here’s a thought, collaborator. Since you now admit that I have in fact provided you with links in the past, why don’t you provide one of them for us so we can all see how “useless” it was?
How about the one from the Detroit Free Press with the election statistics? I gave you that one at least twice.
Yoda Dog
@Major Major Major Major: Yea utter disgust with the marches goes too far. And there’s no way to tell how many will get active and how many will go back to sleep; thats all speculation. The march was a good thing, in and of itself…duh. We’re losing ourselves in this thread.
Doug!
@MazeDancer:
I think it’s after someone else vacates. Gillibrand would wipe the floor with her.
SFAW
OK, so this has apparently turned into another circular firing squad. Outstanding.
zhena gogolia
@SFAW:
I don’t get the impression that this is like Occupy Wall Street at all.
For one thing, every single woman I talked to yesterday went to one march or another. This is bigger than anything I’ve ever seen. I pray that it leads to further action and concrete results, but I’m certainly not getting an Occupy vibe from it.
Major Major Major Major
@Mnemosyne: @SFAW: I’ll be the first to criticize Occupy for being a circle-jerk, but I didn’t get the impression that the march was like that. I’ve seen a lot of action about running for office, getting involved with your local party/causes, etc. based around this in a way that’s qualitatively different from the Occupy BS. Obviously time will tell, but writing these off as a feel-good, one-and-done white-lady circle jerk is if not dumb then at the very least premature.
Betty Cracker
The women’s marches already accomplished something pretty fucking important: They allowed the millions of us who felt like Trump’s election cemented our second-class citizenship feel a little hope. Plus, there was a shit-ton of organizing action going on, FYI. Fuck all of you assholes who are pissing on that.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Betty Cracker: I believe Planned Parenthood, Indivisible and IIRC OFA all held seminars on organizing and activism coordinated with the marches.
PJ
@tobie: You need a reality check. Hillary overwhelmingly won the Democratic primary. I don’t know where you get the idea that these Bernie or Bust people are somehow going to take over the Democratic Party. (And, seriously, where do people get the idea that there are these huge numbers of Bernie or Bust people? I live in liberal-city-central, and everyone Democrat I know, whether they voted for Bernie in the primary or not, voted for Hillary. Anecdotal, I know, but still. I am not on social media – is this a Facebook/Twitter/Reddit thing, with Hillbots still bashing it out with Bernie Bros two and a half months after the election?)
And while the Democratic Party may not be broken, it has serious problems. The Republicans control Congress in large part because the Democratic Party lost at the state level in 2010. We have to run candidates in and win local and state elections in 2018 and 2020, or the Republicans will stay in power even though they are the minority party.
Mnemosyne
@SFAW:
And that’s what I’m worried about. Occupy and many Black Lives Matter groups let themselves get drawn into the useless cul-de-sac of protesting without developing an actual plan for what they wanted to accomplish.
If even half of the people who attended a march on Saturday went away with a plan for how to get the House and Senate to go Democratic in 2018, then we’ll be in good shape.
Because if we can’t get a majority in both the House and the Senate in 2018, plus take back statehouses and governorships in at least 5 states, I really do think we’re well and truly fucked. And the people whining about the horrible and corrupt “corporate Dems” are doing the fascists’ work for them.
Betty Cracker
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Yep, and EMILY’s list also offered candidate training and support for the many women who were inspired to run for office.
the Conster, la Citoyenne
@PJ:
.
fixt it 4 ya
SFAW
@zhena gogolia:
@Major Major Major Major:
@Betty Cracker:
I truly hope all of you are right. I truly hope that my (perceived) skepticism is totally fucking misguided.
That the march(es) took place, and was/were so enormous, was amazing. I’m just hoping we’re not looking back in15 months and saying “WTF happened to that energy and organizing?” Which means, I guess, that I better get off my fat ass and do something to prevent that.
NR
@Mnemosyne: Sorry, I don’t save the links you give me. As I recall, the Dertoit Free Press link stated that Hillary underperformed Obama in some states, but didn’t have details about how many people didn’t vote for her for what reason. It certainly wasn’t evidence that the so-called “Berniebro/Stein contingent” threw the election to Trump.
PJ
@tobie: You need a reality check. Hillary overwhelmingly won the Democratic primary. I don’t know where you get the idea that these Bernie or Bust people are somehow going to take over the Democratic Party. (And, seriously, where do people get the idea that there are these huge numbers of Bernie or Bust people? I live in liberal-city-central, and everyone Democrat I know, whether they voted for Bernie in the primary or not, voted for Hillary. Anecdotal, I know, but still. I am not on social media – is this a Facebook/Twitter/Reddit thing, with Hillbots still bashing it out with Bernie Bros two and a half months after the election?)
And while the Democratic Party may not be broken, it has serious problems. The Republicans control Congress in large part because the Democratic Party lost at the state level in 2010. We have to run candidates in and win local and state elections in 2018 and 2020, or the Republicans will stay in power even though they are the minority party.
Mnemosyne
@Betty Cracker:
I let the troll push me into going further with my rhetoric about the march than I actually meant to. I am sorry, and I apologize.
O. Felix Culpa
@Mnemosyne:
Glad to see you back in fighting form!
It’s also ok to feel down from time to time. I spent the past couple of months grieving and gaining weight. Now it’s time to exercise political will…and occasionally (maybe) the body. :)
NR
And by the way, the marches were the largest protest in American history, and they were completely nonviolent – not one single arrest. To call them useless is dumb and offensive.
Mnemosyne
@NR:
You have enough keywords to find it, collaborator. Go earn those rubles and Google it for us.
Yoda Dog
I dont get the beef with PJ. He said he voted for hill-dog. That’s all I need to hear. A lukewarm vote and a passionate vote are both exactly 1 vote a piece. Mnem and PJ: same fucking team guys. Same team.
ETA: I apologize if I stepped out of my lane here. This thread sucks, mostly cuz of the rooskey trolling it to death. Yoda dog out.
The Thin Black Duke
Jesus, will you folks stop feeding the goddamned troll?
MGB
My two cents: Apparently I went to the same college of Sen Gillibrand, and her class reunion was at the same time as my class. During these class reunions, some affinity alumni groups also have get togethers. So she came to our LBGT group and chatted with a small group of us. ”Tis was 2013. She impressed me with her knowledge and personableness. Plus she told us she considered herself one of our “hags”, like during college. Told my partner that day that she would be running for President, and I hope to get to vote for her.
Miss Bianca
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
They won’t. They’ll just find a way to blame Clinton. And the Democrats.
ETA: Or what Betty said.
NR
@Mnemosyne: So let me get this straight. You’re asking me to provide your link and prove that it doesn’t say what you claim it says.
You… do understand that’s not how it works, right?
Brachiator
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
Not even going to bother looking at the link, but this seems up their with comedian Rob Schneider explaining MLK to John Lewis.
Mnemosyne
@NR:
I’ve provided that link to you at least twice before, collaborator. If you can’t be arsed to do any work to prove your claims about it, I can’t help you.
O. Felix Culpa
@Mnemosyne:
I get the sentiment – as in a march won’t change the results of the election (alas) – but I don’t agree that the march was pointless. It got people energized. It made connections. It showed us that we have numbers. It got under T***p’s skin. And, people are engaged. They’re organizing. They’re making phone calls. They’re lobbying local, state, and federal legislators.
I refuse to believe that all is lost until it actually is lost. Others have faced down greater peril and won. So can we. I intend to be a fierce, persistent warrior. I’m glad for the millions who marched, because that enormous turnout helps me to continue fighting. Others in my “resistance grouplet” and friends around the country feel the same. Vive la résistance!
chopper
@PJ:
some of these guys spent a year trying to convince everybody who would listen that hilz is a warmongering asshole and just absolutely the worst, just the worst. but hey, they pulled the lever for her in november so it’s not like they did anything at all to help get trump elected, amirite?
NR
@Mnemosyne: Um, you’re the one making claims here. I’m asking for evidence to support those claims. If you can’t be bothered to provide it, that’s on you.
O. Felix Culpa
@The Moar You Know:
It doesn’t. But it helps build the resistance movement that might win the next election.
Why is it assumed that marching is the only thing we do? It’s not an either/or: march or be an activist. Good grief, we can multitask. Besides, as in #201, the march provided energy and additional recruits for political engagement. Sometimes I think we should change the tag to “Don’t whine, organize.” Let’s show some fighting spirit!
NR
@pamelabrown53: Sorry, I missed replying to this. But I mostly agree with you. I have no problem working with people who are less ideological than myself. None whatsoever. But for too long, it’s been liberals who have been denied a seat at the table in the Democratic party, and the party has suffered greatly for it. That needs to change, or we won’t ever get out of the mess we’re in.
Mnemosyne
@NR:
I know, Hillary was so conservative with her plans for expanding Obamacare, improving child care, reducing police shootings, and getting free college for everyone. Thank god Trump won to save us from that hideous conservative agenda! Nach Trump, uns!
And all you have to do is accept a few rubles in return for your collaboration.
Peter
@NR: How about this, you clown: I don’t care whether Stein voters tipped the election or not. I don’t care about whether Nader voters brought us Bush either. We’ll never know for sure what the outcome would have been if Green voters voted for their pick of the main two parties, because it’s a counterfactual, it’s unknowable. What I do know is that in both cases, those Green voters had an unambiguous choice: only two candidates had a chance of winning, and one was obviously better for the country than the other. They had a chance to vote against right-wing fascism, and they chose to abstain, because they cared more about their own self-righteousness. They put their personal fee-fees ahead of the good of the country, and that makes them selfish assholes, and if they had even the slightest bit of self-awareness they would spend the rest of their lives feeling like as assholes for doing it.
Miss Bianca
@Mnemosyne: Forget it, Mnem – sea lions will be sea-lionin’.
NR
@Mnemosyne: Um, I don’t know what election you were watching, but Hillary most certainty did not propose free college for everyone. It was a certain other candidate who did that – and he was attacked over and over again for it here.
And I’ll repeat one more time that I voted for Hillary, so your incoherent ranting is irrelevant.
J R in WV
@Calouste:
Of course there were Republican votes for Obama’s nominations – he nominated conservative Democrats and Republican people…!!! ;-)
Well.
Not exclusively. Kerry wasn’t a Republican, nor really conservative. But many were, like our friend Comey. Especially in security and defense positions. What was the vote for Hillary’s nomination?
Ah, 16-1 (with David Vitter, he of the whore and diapers! the lone nay) in committee and 94-2 in the full Senate, with Vitter and the deLovely Jim DeMint of SC opposing her. Funny how they treated her later on.
Not to demean the prostitute, she was no doubt a hard worker earning her fees. But he wanted diapers? I’m pretty open minded about sex, but of all the fancy kinks there are, that’s not one I ever considered. No, I’d prefer her to David Vitter for any job in the Plum Book. More honest, harder working, no doubt better looking and smarter as well.
Honestly, I don’t know how a Democratic Senator can legitimately vote for most of these right-wing nut job clowns. No experience, no edumacation, no talent, nothing says they will do a good job. Nothing. So sad!
chopper
“i voted for hillary! i mean, i may have convinced two others to vote against her, but that doesn’t count”
Mnemosyne
@NR:
It’s pathetic how easy it is to prove you wrong, collaborator. You’d better go back to your handlers in Moscow for some better talking points.
Nicole
NYC’er here- call Gillibrand’s NY office; the woman answering the phone is very polite and has always been very happy to hear a positive call for the Senator (yes, I’ve called more than once). I imagine the DC one is fine, too, but they say, in general, to call the office in the state represented for more impact.
I like her. I was a grump when she was appointed, as I am a screaming lefty, but I have been very pleased with the job she’s done.
J R in WV
@PJ:
PJ, whoever you are, you say:
But at the comment you were replying to, Mnemosyn said
You got Mnem’s point exactly backwards. You need to work on your reading comprehension somewhat, don’t you? She thinks that people “still whining” about Hillary are enablers of Trump, I don’t know how you can twist that into an accusation that Mnemosyn thinks that voting for Hillary enabled Trump. Your accusation is in fact insane. Not Mnemosyn.
Grow up and learn to read before you wade in here with bull shit! You act worse than 12 y o people I know.
J R in WV
@Mnemosyne:
Next door neighbor went to DC with other friends, had a great time. I watched the photos come up here, and it really helped me relax a little bit. I managed to grind a chewing face off one of my crown molars already, got a plastic mouth guard to not do that any more.
But I’ve been having trouble sleeping since before the election – so anything that helps the anxiety and tension is a very good thing for me.
Like you I worked phone banks for Hillary and made contributions to both her primary and general election campaign funds. I can’t really go out into the field to work for health reasons. But I did what I can do. We lost on a technicality. To a treasonous, pig ignorant learning disabled fool, who appears to be working up to a shooting war thousands of miles away in the South Shina Sea.
Starting a world-wide war would be the crowning achievement of Trump’s career. Fucked up over and over, failed up most every time, til he reached the pinnacle of opportunity for fucking up.
Now, here we are. Gagging the Federal Government, what a boon for humanity! I have to admit, I didn’t see that one coming. Those guys are really, really rabid unAmerican monsters, past my worst nightmares.
NR
@Mnemosyne: “Debt-free” is not the same thing as “free,” moron. It’s really stupid to attack people over something when you clearly have no idea what you’re talking about.
NR
@chopper: “You didn’t clap loudly enough, so Tinkerbell died!”
burnspbesq
@rikyrah:
If a “squeaky voice” is a disqualifier, can we really claim to have made any progress?
Adria McDowell (formerly Lurker Extraordinaire
Sigh. The fact that some people still want to relitigate the Dem primary when a *man* that has demonized Muslims and Mexicans and would gladly force them to register and round them up and take them wherever (including members of my own family) sits in the Oval Office is one of the many reasons why I hardly come around. I’ll stick with Silverman posts from now on, thanks.
Sorry. Back to my regularly scheduled lurking and depression.
PJ
@J R in WV: I shouldn’t even respond to this crap, but, yes, I did read what she wrote, which is that expressing an opinion about Hillary which is not to her liking, months after the election, somehow helped Trump get elected months before. Perhaps my comment here traveled back in time, where some poor soul before the election thought, well, this internet commenter’s not so fervent about Hillary, even though he voted for her and thought she was the far superior candidate, so I guess I won’t vote, or maybe I’ll vote for Stein, or maybe even for Trump. If this is what she literally meant, she is even nuttier than I thought. I elided over all that in my response to get to my point, which is that I don’t see how voting for Hillary = supporting Trump. If her point is that being lukewarm about Hillary, even if you voted for her, means that you are or were supporting Trump, then she is expecting a Communist Party level of support for candidates, where any criticism or even less than maximum enthusiasm for a politician is tantamount to treason. If that’s the party that you and she want, you are welcome to it, but I, and, I believe, the vast majority of Democrats will continue to work for a country where free expression is welcome.
goblue72
@brighid: Keep smoking your bitter weed, Clintonistas. Maybe if you do enough bong hits, you’ll find some wisdom.
goblue72
@chopper: There’s ointments for the chafing from your butthurt that PoMo Suffragette lost to a talking cyst.
BillinGlendaleCA
Gillibrand sounds good to me, she’s a Bruin(Law School).
BillinGlendaleCA
@Mnemosyne: I tend to disagree that the marches were useless even if further action doesn’t materialize(I think they will aid in further organizing). Remember the target of the marches loves to be loved, he wasn’t getting that.
I agree that OWS and BLM failed due to lack of coherent organization and message. They also failed to recognize who their allies were and who their enemies were.
When I first saw the thread title, I wondered what your hubby did.☺
chopper
@goblue72:
you seem awfully interested in anal chafing.
CarolDuhart2
@Mnemosyne: One of the things both Occupy and Black Lives Matter have is that they are/were mostly young people. At 20 it’s hard to stay connected because of other pressing concerns in life. And the Democrats/Left don’t help with making it possible to make a living as a full-time activist, learning the skills as one goes. The Women’s March is a the other end: women who are middle-aged and older whose kids are grown or don’t have them. Women who have gained skills from a lifetime of work, who already have jobs and resources and support at home. So they don’t have to focus so much on how to make a living and get established in the world, how to balance activism with creating a family, how to have a love life.