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You are here: Home / Politics / Domestic Politics / Open Thread: On “Voter Fraud”

Open Thread: On “Voter Fraud”

by Anne Laurie|  January 26, 20179:26 am| 146 Comments

This post is in: Domestic Politics, Election 2016, Excellent Links, Open Threads, Republican Venality, Trump Crime Cartel, Voting Rights

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President Trump to launch investigation into alleged voter fraud: “I want the voting process to be legitimate." https://t.co/zjjJ6vMqXU pic.twitter.com/Spb3a9ScQf

— ABC News (@ABC) January 25, 2017

The President-Asterisk certainly comes across here as a well-informed and not at all obsessed-with-internet-rumors individual, does he not? (Spoiler: He does not.)

Imagine, for a second, the pressures that Justice Department officials tasked to do this will face to produce the desired results. https://t.co/jTWnZy0pV6

— Daniel W. Drezner (@dandrezner) January 25, 2017

We don't even have to, the Bush Administration did the same thing – it even fired US Attorneys who (truthfully) reported there was no fraud https://t.co/yDU1eMauVQ

— (((Gautam Mukunda))) (@gmukunda) January 25, 2017

Excellent ProPublica thread, if you need a summary to forward to naive family & acquaintances:

.@seanspicer 2/ Electionland monitored polling places across the U.S. If millions had voted illegally, we’d have known. https://t.co/GkhQ5Wcxzc

— ProPublica (@ProPublica) January 24, 2017

.@seanspicer @POLITICOMag 7/ Quality studies on fraud haven’t found any. This looked at a billion ballots & found only 31 instances of fraud https://t.co/HetrgaNtCB

— ProPublica (@ProPublica) January 24, 2017

As I've noted before, voting integrity better in this election than ever before. Zero evidence of fraud. https://t.co/BBS8NVcACB

— David Becker (@beckerdavidj) January 24, 2017

These allegations are basically a false flag so Republicans can engage in even more voter suppression https://t.co/u4Y180CoRW

— Dan Pfeiffer (@danpfeiffer) January 25, 2017

Going into the future, this is all they've got: suppress the right to vote. Demographic trends block all other paths for the GOP. https://t.co/Kf0Hthw5dN

— Al Giordano (@AlGiordano) January 25, 2017

(Jack Ohman via GoComics.com)
.

Reminder: There have been just four documented cases of voter fraud in the 2016 election. Three were Trump voters. https://t.co/peeTaEOxWy

— Dan Eggen (@DanEggenWPost) January 25, 2017

The press should just keep repeating that Trump voters accounted for 75% of voter fraud and make Spicer have to point out it was 3 people.

— Schooley (@Rschooley) January 25, 2017

For those keeping count, I've found that Bannon, Mnuchin, Priebus, Kushner, and Tiffany Trump are all registered to vote in two locations.

— Tom Bonier (@tbonier) January 26, 2017

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Next Post: He Said What ? The Entire Transcript of the President’s Interview with ABC News »

Reader Interactions

146Comments

  1. 1.

    Thoroughly Pizzled

    January 26, 2017 at 9:36 am

    I’m genuinely unsure if they realize that dead people being registered to vote is not the same as dead people voting.

  2. 2.

    clay

    January 26, 2017 at 9:42 am

    @Thoroughly Pizzled: If they realize it, they don’t care. They are intentionally conflating voter registration problems with voter fraud. They are completely separate issues, but it supports their agenda to confuse the two.

    EDIT: Now, Trump himself may not understand the difference, but that’s par for the course.

  3. 3.

    greengoblin

    January 26, 2017 at 9:45 am

    They are claiming millions, which is ridiculous. Where would you find millions to vote illegally and how would you organize them to do so?

    How can anyone pursue this with a straight face?

  4. 4.

    Lee

    January 26, 2017 at 9:47 am

    Actually lets spend a lot of time and money and investigate this. When very little of consequence turns up, then use it to roll back voter Id laws

  5. 5.

    satby

    January 26, 2017 at 9:52 am

    @clay: Yes, this. Because that way they can continue to push for voter id laws with ridiculous hoops to jump through to get an id. Indiana requires a certified birth certificate to get a drivers license, turning in a valid one from another state isn’t enough, as an example. For me, that means a trip back to Chicago to get a freshly certified copy of my birth certificate, which is several hours and a tank of gas as well as whatever fees I have to pay for a copy. All significant impediments to a low wage, full time M-F worker, because they would have to take a day off in the middle of the week. And Chicago is only 2 hours away, for people from a much farther place it’s even more impossible.

  6. 6.

    Peale

    January 26, 2017 at 9:56 am

    @greengoblin: we’re just st criminal by nature. We don’t need your stinking “organization” behind the conspiracy. We voted fraudulently because we couldn’t help ourselves.

  7. 7.

    amk

    January 26, 2017 at 9:56 am

    Schooley’s tweet is spot on.

    Dems should vigorously push back on this big lie.

    Just saw a clip on bbc with granny starver blabbering something about wall, borders, blah blah.

    Why aren’t the dems holding their own PC’s?

  8. 8.

    p.a.

    January 26, 2017 at 9:56 am

    Not talking about Russia anymore. GISH!

  9. 9.

    comrade scott's agenda of rage

    January 26, 2017 at 9:56 am

    I like the fact that ProPublica can use the “L” word (lie) whereas phvcking NPR can’t.

    Reason #1,348 to never listen to NRP nor give them a dime of money.

  10. 10.

    vtr

    January 26, 2017 at 9:58 am

    About fifty per cent of the citizens who are qualified to vote didn’t bother to, but three to five million unregistered people risked substantial prison terms to vote. I guess that would make sense.

  11. 11.

    retiredeng

    January 26, 2017 at 10:01 am

    @vtr: I’ve been wondering if those that skipped the 2016 election now wish they did vote. And how many are there?

  12. 12.

    geg6

    January 26, 2017 at 10:05 am

    @p.a.:

    This.

  13. 13.

    Это курам на смех

    January 26, 2017 at 10:10 am

    @satby:

    Indiana requires a certified birth certificate to get a drivers license,

    So does Oregon, but we vote by mail, so no one is prevented from voting.

  14. 14.

    Woodrowfan

    January 26, 2017 at 10:10 am

    From the republican Dictionary: “Voter Fraud” (Noun) any person other than a white republican voting.

  15. 15.

    JJ

    January 26, 2017 at 10:13 am

    I think it’s hilarious that the fraudulent voters didn’t show up in PA, WI and MI. Damn them.

  16. 16.

    amk

    January 26, 2017 at 10:13 am

    @Woodrowfan: Yup. Apartheid Amurkkka.

  17. 17.

    montanareddog

    January 26, 2017 at 10:14 am

    It’s CheneyBall:

    make an outrageous statement that gets reported in the mainstream media

    go on TV and say that even the mainstream media is reporting there was large scale voter fraud

    if there is pushback that the media is reporting there is no evidence of large scale voter fraud, reply that is why we need an investigation – to find the evidence

    a formal investigation never takes formally place but the meme is out there – introduce more voter ID laws (at state level of course so it does not get the same degree of scrutiny)

    all of the Republican-led states will pass an ALEC cookie cutter law that allows military ID, Trump-owned golf-course membership card, and NRA membership card etc as voter ID. So as not to be accused of discrimination, they will also setup a figleaf state ID scheme available to those who present in person at one location in the state for a fee of $199

    The inevitable Supreme Court case of the ACLU etc against the State will rule 5-4 that though the Constitution declares voting a right, it is only a right for citizens, and it is a State’s right to legislate on what can be used to prove your citizenship

  18. 18.

    Lurking Canadian

    January 26, 2017 at 10:15 am

    They’re absolutely right. There was MASSIVE voter fraud. There’s only one thing to do, and that’s run the election again. Want to go best two out of three, Donny?

  19. 19.

    Iowa Old Lady

    January 26, 2017 at 10:15 am

    There was a case of voter fraud in Iowa this time. A woman voted early for Trump, then was driving past another early voting station and was inspired to do it again. Of course, they knew she’d already cast a ballot and she was arrested.

    They’re claiming illegal immigrants did the illegal voting, thus conflating two of their memes into one.

  20. 20.

    amk

    January 26, 2017 at 10:15 am

    elon musk normalizing the lying lunatic.

  21. 21.

    Mandarama

    January 26, 2017 at 10:15 am

    This seems like a good open thread to bring up another kind of fraud, from my home state of Mississippi. The other day, someone front-paged one of the many examples of state senator Chris McDaniel being a total dick (about “unhappy liberal women” marching). Commenter Starfish posted that

    Here (Facebook) is a link to someone who went right off on him about the infant mortality rates in Mississippi.

    That someone was Vicki Robinson Slater, who was a favored gubernatorial candidate for the Democratic primary in 2015. She’s a lawyer and activist, so message board commenters in Mississippi say she “is a great attorney but a bitch.” IOW, she’s smart and she speaks out. Well, right before the primary, which she was expected to win and mount an actual challenge against idiot Phil Bryant, some guy named Robert Gray turned up on the Dem primary ballot. He is a truck driver, never involved in politics, admitted he did not vote in the local elections himself, and had a vague website thrown up. He beat Slater and posed zero threat to Bryant. Didn’t really even campaign.

    Most Mississippians said well, people just voted for the male name, or the alphabetical first one on the ballot, whatever. No one investigated whether there was anyone behind Gray’s decision to jump in, although MSNBC picked it up.

    Makes Pappy McDaniel look like a paragon.

  22. 22.

    Jerzy Russian

    January 26, 2017 at 10:19 am

    Didn’t Ann Cou—r commit voter fraud? (I didn’t want to write a swear word on this family blog)

  23. 23.

    Renie

    January 26, 2017 at 10:21 am

    @Thoroughly Pizzled: well drumpf said the dead people have been voting “for a very long time” – maybe he’s been watching Walking Dead and is confused

  24. 24.

    FlyingToaster

    January 26, 2017 at 10:21 am

    @satby: Okay, so I don’t quite get this:

    I ordered my birth certificate from Missouri Vital Records and had it mailed to me in Massachusetts (this was in the 90s, when I needed it for my passport). I just checked, and they’re still available through either the MO Department of Health & Senior Services or third-party through VitalChek.

    From what the VitalChek site lists, you can order from all 50 states. So if you know all of the information (name, parents’ names, DOB, hospital or address), why drive anywhere?

  25. 25.

    JJ

    January 26, 2017 at 10:24 am

    Did anyone see T’s inaugural dinner speech in which he said, “Next time we’re going to win the old-fashioned way.”?Trevor Noah has a great term for those instances when he accidentally speaks the truth, “a truth moment”.

  26. 26.

    Ruckus

    January 26, 2017 at 10:27 am

    With rethugs it is all projection.
    All the time.
    Every time.
    Projection.
    It’s what they would do, or in the case of 75% of the fraud votes found out of millions, (3 votes), it’s what they actually do. And they are the best (just ask them!) so everyone else must be doing what they would and actually do.
    Projection. It’s like a disease.

  27. 27.

    Kryptik

    January 26, 2017 at 10:30 am

    Don’t look now, but Trump may be targeting birthright citizenship now too:

    A prominent advocate of ending U.S. birthright citizenship is in line to join the Trump administration in an immigration-related position at the Department of Homeland Security, according to two former U.S. officials informed of transition changes by department personnel.

    Jon D. Feere has been a legal policy analyst for the Center for Immigration Studies, a conservative group that calls for added immigration restrictions.

    […]

    Feere, 37, testified before the House Judiciary subcommittee on immigration in 2015 and has written several opinion pieces, including an August 2015 article in TheHill.com, proposing alternatives to a constitutional amendment by which Congress could enact a law or President Trump could issue an executive order denying citizenship, U.S. passports or Social Security numbers to American-born children of people in the country illegally.

  28. 28.

    rikyrah

    January 26, 2017 at 10:31 am

    Why Does Betsy DeVos Think Federal Student Loan Debt Has Grown by 1,000 percent?
    by Ben Barrett
    January 25, 2017 4:52 PM

    Members of the Senate Health, Education, Labor and Pensions (HELP) Committee have six days before they vote on whether to proceed with the confirmation of Betsy DeVos, President Trump’s nominee for U.S. Education Secretary. DeVos’ inability to discuss fundamental education policy topics in the first hearing has led some members of Congress to seriously doubt her competence for the post.

    But while her unsure footing and non-answers to basic policy questions related to K-12 schools have attracted the lion’s share of attention, what left many higher education analysts scratching their heads is the confidence with which she delivered a shocking and incorrect statistic about the growth in student indebtedness over time.

    In response to an inquiry from Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-UT) about how she would improve student loan repayment rate data so that students could make more informed decisions, DeVos acknowledgedthat, “The issue of student debt and the amount of student debt, over $1.3 trillion right now, up over 1,000 percent in the past eight years is a very serious issue.”

    That’s not true. Although outstanding student debt now comes close to $1.3 trillion, outstanding federal student debt has grown by 97 percent since 2009–a very large increase, but far less than the 1,000 percent Devos claimed. Indeed, for her point to have been true, student loan debt would have to have been $130 billion eight years ago. In fact, the total federal loan balance in 2009 was $657 billion — more than five times that.*

  29. 29.

    Smitty

    January 26, 2017 at 10:31 am

    @amk: Have contacted my members of congress about staging a daily briefing countering the Whitehouse spokesman. Thought this might be a role that the new head of the DNC could perform.

  30. 30.

    Woodrow/asim

    January 26, 2017 at 10:33 am

    @FlyingToaster: Because not everyone knows about that, honestly.

    Moreover, if you don’t have Internet at home — as many people still don’t — that means a trip to a friend, or your local Library.

  31. 31.

    chris

    January 26, 2017 at 10:34 am

    Just going to throw this out and let everyone tear it to shreds. Compulsory voting (wikipedia)
    Canada is having a discussion about changing the first-past-the-post system to some form of proportional representation. Whether anything will come of it is up in the air at the moment but it sounds good to me.
    There was an online survey last year and one of the questions was about mandatory voting. So I looked into it and I’m for it because I think voting is a duty rather than a right.
    I believe it would change the game. Campaigns would have to explain their positions to everyone not just the base. It would solve all the voter suppression crap in one go because the government would have to make every effort to allow people to obey the law.
    And much more,IMHO.

    (Ducks and covers. Speaking of which, whatever happened to the Russian hacks?)

  32. 32.

    Mnemosyne

    January 26, 2017 at 10:34 am

    @FlyingToaster:

    You need access to a computer to order your BC online. And a credit card.

  33. 33.

    hovercraft

    January 26, 2017 at 10:34 am

    @Thoroughly Pizzled: They realize it, but it just sounds more nefarious to say that dead people are registered to vote. They also never point out that when a loved one dies, for some bizarre reason the families/loved ones priorities do not include ensuring that they are immediately removed from the voter rolls. Shocking, I know.
    Assholes!!

  34. 34.

    rikyrah

    January 26, 2017 at 10:34 am

    First they came for the Latinos, Muslims, women, gays, poor people, intellectuals and scientists and then it was Wednesday.

    — Jonathan M. Katz (@KatzOnEarth) January 25, 2017

  35. 35.

    hovercraft

    January 26, 2017 at 10:36 am

    @greengoblin:

    Where would you find millions to vote illegally and how would you organize them to do so?

    How can anyone pursue this with a straight face?

    There are 30 million illegals in this country, and all of them vote for democrats, so really he won the popular vote by 27 million.

  36. 36.

    Aleta

    January 26, 2017 at 10:36 am

    Sad irony is he doesn’t even have principles about the fraud part of voter fraud.

  37. 37.

    Renie

    January 26, 2017 at 10:38 am

    people on twitter should all start posting images of immigrants in their family and copy GOP leaders on them

  38. 38.

    Elizabelle

    January 26, 2017 at 10:39 am

    @JJ: Meh. Maybe. Could be the Oval Office occupier thinks he’ll win the popular vote too.

    ETA: although I think they cheated too. Although perhaps not provably. I am sure Obama and the DOJ took a quiet look, don’t you think?

  39. 39.

    Mike in NC

    January 26, 2017 at 10:39 am

    Trump’s daily eruptions of butthurt are by design to mask his true agenda to set himself up as Dear Leader.

  40. 40.

    Mnemosyne

    January 26, 2017 at 10:41 am

    @FlyingToaster:

    Also, as rikyrah started pointing out a few years ago, there is an entire cohort of African-Americans born in the segregated South pre-1964 who don’t have birth certificates. Hospitals that served Black people were few and far between, so a lot of people were born at home. It was not uncommon for the midwives to not file the paperwork for a proper BC.

    Until these voter ID laws were passed, it wasn’t that big a deal — you could submit other evidence that you were born here. But now that a BC is the one and only document accepted, those people are screwed.

  41. 41.

    hovercraft

    January 26, 2017 at 10:44 am

    @amk:

    Why aren’t the dems holding their own PC’s?

    They can start by holding oone to mock him about this.
    Dems, Make Trump Own His Wall Humiliation

    By Josh Marshall Published January 26, 2017, 9:13 AM EDT

    Donald Trump has given Democrats an immense gift with his latest Wall cave. As I’ve noted, Mexico paying for the Trump Wall has never been mainly about budgets or money. It’s about dominance and humiliation. Countries defeated in war pay war indemnities. They are forced to agree to unequal treaties. Trump is all about dominance politics and humiliation. Forcing a foreign country to pay for a wall to keep its own citizens out of another country is almost the definition of national humiliation, as the Mexicans have themselves made abundantly. Although less deadly, it’s symbolically comparable to how China forces families to pay for the bullets used to execute their relatives.

    And yet here we are, one week in and Trump has managed his colossal self-own. Who’s paying for it? We’re paying for it! Or, who’s paying for it? Mexico! How? On layaway! Or with some kind of forced promissory note which they themselves reject and say they’ll never pay. Trump has made all of America into the first stiffed Trump vendor of his administration.

    Journalists may feel the need to go through the motions of pretending or asking the President how he plans to get Mexico to pay for his Wall. But this is clearly nonsense. Mexico is never going to pay for his Wall. That’s obvious. As any businessperson knows, the promise and commitment you get at the beginning is always the most solid one you’ll ever get. Your leverage only goes down. Mexico will never pay for the wall. And the initial cost estimates are almost certainly low. This will be tens of billions of dollars for Trump’s ego trip. You will pay. Mexico will laugh.

    The ‘Mexico will pay’ song and dance was always about dominance and power, not budgetary savings. Democrats should confront it on those terms. The precise dollar amount isn’t the point. After all the promises about his strongman power, how Trump bends the weak to his will, Trump got owned and now is sticking taxpayers with the cost of his nonsensical promises about how we’re just ‘fronting’ the money. He got owned. He lied. And now he’s resorting to the same ‘oh you’ll get paid later’ flimflam he’s used to rip off countless investors over the years.

    No less important, every Republican in Congress is going to give this the green light, forcing American taxpayers to pay for the Wall themselves. Democrats should hammer this point too: they’re trying to clean up Trump’s mess with your money!

    Trump can’t be mocked. It takes him apart like. The Wall was always about Trump’s dominance politics brand. Democrats should hit on that front. Don’t even get into an argument over the nonsense about making Mexico pay on layaway. That’s nonsense. Everybody knows it. Insisting on this obvious fact to Trump’s face will just drive him harder into more bluster and nonsensical argument, insisting on the truth of what is palpably ridiculous. It’s brand-defeating. It’s a gift for the Democrats. Please open it.

  42. 42.

    rikyrah

    January 26, 2017 at 10:46 am

    The Emperor is Actually Crazy
    by Martin Longman
    January 25, 2017 3:45 PM

    It wasn’t too hard to find a list of crazy things that Caligula did when he was in charge of the Roman Empire in the 1st Century. You can probably guess why I went searching for such a thing, since we now, too, have a leader who is narcissistic beyond belief and clearly insane. Trump’s latest demonstration of this is his call for a major investigation of (virtually non-existent) voter fraud which he insists happened, despite having just sent his own lawyers into court to fight recounts by arguing that “All available evidence suggests that the 2016 general election was not tainted by fraud or mistake.”

    I was in the car running an errand and had the opportunity to hear a presser given by Republican congressional leaders Sen. John Thune of South Dakota and Rep. Cathy McMorris Rodgers of Washington state. Listening to them dance around Trump’s clear mental imbalance on this issue was a sound to behold. Sen. Thune did manage to promise “better message coordination” between Congress and the White House in the future, chalking up the whole thing up to growing pains.

    The reason Trump reminds me of an unhinged Roman emperor is because his political allies are always walking on eggshells, afraid to contradict him but (so far) largely unwilling to vouch for his false and delusional statements and beliefs.

  43. 43.

    rikyrah

    January 26, 2017 at 10:48 am

    Quick Takes: Is Trump Morally Unfit or Are We Facing a Constitution Crisis?
    by Nancy LeTourneau
    January 25, 2017 5:50 PM

    * Yesterday Paul Krugman tweeted this:

    An American first: a president who was obviously mentally ill the moment he took office. Thanks, Comey

    — Paul Krugman (@paulkrugman) January 24, 2017

    * In a tweet storm today, Maggie Haberman of the NYT describes a man who is mentally unstable.

    … started calling advisers and aides angry about the @BCAppelbaum RT by parks, accusing media of being out to get him. Trump’s worst 2/

    — Maggie Haberman (@maggieNYT) January 25, 2017

    …to let go of any grievance or perceived slight. And he is genuinely transfixed by people thinking his election isn’t legit. He is 4/

    — Maggie Haberman (@maggieNYT) January 25, 2017

    * Conservative columnist Jennifer Rubin speculates that “Maybe Trump Isn’t Lying.”

    The supposition among pundits, elected officials and political insiders is that Trump, like his argument over the inaugural crowd size, “lies” to make himself feel better. His staff salutes, repeats his lies and then gets bashed. What if, however, he thoroughly, “honestly” believes his crazy, unsubstantiated claims?

    Rubin goes on to suggest that there are only two options for explaining what is going on.

    We are not calling — yet — for invocation of Section 4 of the 25th Amendment. (“Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.”)

  44. 44.

    Russ

    January 26, 2017 at 10:51 am

    I would like to be in the room when whoever gets picked to do it, tell Trump, we found virtually no voter fraud.

  45. 45.

    ruemara

    January 26, 2017 at 10:52 am

    It’s all about rolling back minority gains of the last 60 years. Meanwhile, we still don’t have solid Democrats refusing to work with Trump on his nominations and a clear focus on voting rights actions. I know it’s just January but if these are my allies, I better hope my mandatory working custodial family is nice.

  46. 46.

    ET

    January 26, 2017 at 10:54 am

    Two things. First this Bad Lip Reading from the Inauguration I found at the Poke was hilarious.

    Second Matthew Yglesias write up about why Trump lies so much is very interesting.

    Any Republican who is willing to publicly echo Trump’s lies does two things. One is that he proves he is willing to incur costs to his personal reputation in order to defend Trump. The other is that having in fact borne costs to his personal reputation, he objectively ties up his success with Trump’s.

    Just something I think might be helpful to keep in mind not just citizens but the press trying to cover Trump specifically but his flacks as well.

  47. 47.

    BC in Illinois

    January 26, 2017 at 10:56 am

    I can say, with near-absolute certainty, that I am registered to vote in two states.

    A year ago I moved from Illinois to Missouri. I voted in Missouri. And I am sure that my name is on the rolls in Illinois. (My son’s name stayed on the rolls, right next to mine, years after he left the area.)

    But if I went back there, I would be greeted at the polling place with “BC! I thought you moved. There’s been someone else living at your place for the last year.” (Yeah, it was a town of 5,000. They had the book open to my name by the time I got to the table. Someone trying to vote using my name would have a hard time.)

    In Missouri (in a larger city), I voted, using my driver’s license as an ID. They also allowed other proof of address–bank statements, other ID’s etc. (But that will change. A new voter ID / voter suppression law was passed last November, and will be headed to the courts.) Two officials, one from each party, and various observers saw me sign in.

    If someone had signed in before me, I would have complained. If someone had tried to sign in under my name, after me, people would have investigated.

    And here is my point – – all of this is on record! It’s not secret. I could go to the official records today and find out how many traffic tickets and parking tickets were issued in my city on November 8, 2016. I could go to the St. Louis County Board of Elections and find out how many complaints of voter impersonation were filed on November 8, 2016. (Uh – none.)

    I can see investigating voting machines and the reporting practices of certain counties in Wisconsin. But “millions and millions” of fraudulent voters bussed in to impersonate real voters?

    It’s only a cover story, to enable a national voter suppression scheme.

  48. 48.

    Aleta

    January 26, 2017 at 10:56 am

    @Mike in NC: Reality has no business contradicting him and must be hacked apart when it does.

  49. 49.

    Timurid

    January 26, 2017 at 10:57 am

    @p.a.:

    The Russia story has moved about as far as it can until the inter-agency investigation is complete. I hope those guys are close. They may not have much more time…

  50. 50.

    hovercraft

    January 26, 2017 at 10:59 am

    @Mnemosyne: @FlyingToaster:
    The credit card is the biggest obstacle, most people do not realize that a very sizable number of our poorest, don’t have bank accounts, and do not have ANY credit at all, which is why they resort to loan sharks or payday lenders, oopps, sorry to repeat myself. Drive through any poorer neighborhood and look at the number of check cashing places, pawn shops and the like, it’s like being thrust back fifty years to a cash only society. That is the reason they are targeting DMV’s in areas they know “those” people are concentrated, even at the expense of some in areas not heavily minority. It’s worth it to them, after all, their voters can do stuff online, and push come to shove, they have cars.

  51. 51.

    hovercraft

    January 26, 2017 at 10:59 am

    @rikyrah:
    Funny, and so much truth.

  52. 52.

    Renie

    January 26, 2017 at 11:00 am

    @Russ: or the person who tells him we are not building a wall

  53. 53.

    Steeplejack (phone)

    January 26, 2017 at 11:01 am

    @satby:

    You can get a birth certificate by mail from almost any state through VitalChek.com. Which doesn’t change your point about ridiculous, onerous voter ID requirements.

  54. 54.

    FlyingToaster

    January 26, 2017 at 11:02 am

    @Woodrow/asim: Back in the ’90s, Missouri didn’t have the application form online, but they had an e-mail address, so I e-mailed them and asked for a copy of the application — they e-mailed back SASE instructions for the application form. And the form looks pretty much the same as 20 years ago.

    @Mnemosyne: And this is what voters’ rights groups need to address; download all 50 states forms and mailing addresses, and be able to hand a printed form and envelope to everyone who does have a birth certificate somewhere.

  55. 55.

    A Ghost To Most

    January 26, 2017 at 11:02 am

    @rikyrah:

    “Whenever the Vice President and …

    Well, there is your problem right there.

  56. 56.

    Davis X. Machina

    January 26, 2017 at 11:04 am

    @FlyingToaster: What does VitalChek charge?? What non-CC payment do they accept?

  57. 57.

    rikyrah

    January 26, 2017 at 11:06 am

    @Mnemosyne:

    Until these voter ID laws were passed, it wasn’t that big a deal — you could submit other evidence that you were born here. But now that a BC is the one and only document accepted, those people are screwed.

    And, once again screwed over by Jim Crow.

  58. 58.

    FlyingToaster

    January 26, 2017 at 11:07 am

    @Mnemosyne:

    It was not uncommon for the midwives to not file the paperwork for a proper BC.

    Not just blacks; several of my mom’s cousins were born at home on the farm, and few of the daughters had birth certificates. My mom was lucky; one of her aunts-in-law was the midwife, and she would go down to the county seat every three months and file all of the births at once.

    So there are a cohort of 80-year-old women who changed their names when they married and have no birth certificate on file, anywhere. And a Social Security card and a 50-year voting record isn’t good enough.

  59. 59.

    gene108

    January 26, 2017 at 11:07 am

    @satby:

    <blockquoteYes, this. Because that way they can continue to push for voter id laws with ridiculous hoops to jump through to get an id. Indiana requires a certified birth certificate to get a drivers license, turning in a valid one from another state isn’t enough, as an example. For me, that means a trip back to Chicago to get a freshly certified copy of my birth certificate, which is several hours and a tank of gas as well as whatever fees I have to pay for a copy. All significant impediments to a low wage, full time M-F worker, because they would have to take a day off in the middle of the week. And Chicago is only 2 hours away, for people from a much farther place it’s even more impossible.

    Or if you are like me and there’s a typo on your birth certificate, you are SOL.

    Read about a case in Wisconsin of a guy with a typo on his birth certificate, which made him unable to get the required ID to vote.

  60. 60.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    January 26, 2017 at 11:08 am

    This may have already been posted/discussed, but…

    Judd LegumVerified account
    ‏@JuddLegum
    7. Only 17 Democrats are publicly opposing Sessions, who couldn’t get confirmed as a federal judge because of his history of racism

    It isn’t just the R’s, or Feinstein, who need to hear from you.

  61. 61.

    Mnemosyne

    January 26, 2017 at 11:09 am

    @Steeplejack (phone):

    See my follow-up comment at #40. There is a cohort of Black voters born in the South before 1964 (sometimes later) who don’t have proper birth certificates at all. There used to be ways around this because it’s a known problem, but voter ID laws deliberately took those alternative routes away.

    @FlyingToaster:

    Sure, but we also need to have a process for the people who don’t have proper birth certificates so they can get the alternative documentation they need. It’s not a coincidence that the voter ID laws hurt them the most.

  62. 62.

    gvg

    January 26, 2017 at 11:09 am

    1. I don’t think the 25th Amendment can be used until their is a cabinet to invoke it. that’s actually a reason to finish up his appointments quickly but they are problems too, Since he appoints them, will they immediately turn on him? It seems problematic but the hopeful thing is Trump doesn’t actually have many friends and is having to appoint people other Republicans recommend. Pence is in charge of the Transition and he would be the beneficiary of a revolt. I wonder if Trump even knows that possibility?
    2. Impeachment would seem to be an immediate duty for Congress, but if they do it this fast, they have essentially nullified an election and democracy. I think any of them who actually care about the institutions and future processes is going to be uncomfortable doing it before he has done some provable things….maybe after a year. Owning the hotel is a trick issue because the American public did know about it and his voters clearly didn’t care. So using it as an excuse won’t seem legitimate. Taking back the lease however would be OK. That might enrage him so much he concentrates on a battle with those bureaucrats so much he leaves other bad ideas undone. Well, I can wish anyway.

    Who was the runner up in getting the post office? Would they have standing to sue?

  63. 63.

    Brachiator

    January 26, 2017 at 11:10 am

    @chris:

    Just going to throw this out and let everyone tear it to shreds. Compulsory voting (wikipedia)
    Canada is having a discussion about changing the first-past-the-post system to some form of proportional representation. Whether anything will come of it is up in the air at the moment but it sounds good to me.

    Yeah, I think this is stupid, but it’s Canada, so i can’t work up any particular outrage over it.

  64. 64.

    Calouste

    January 26, 2017 at 11:11 am

    @hovercraft: The Mexican President is rethinking his planned visit to D.C. Partially because the wall announcement was made at almost the exact moment that the Mexican Minister of Foreign Affairs arrived in D.C. to do preparations for that visit, but mostly because Mexicans are really pissed off about the wall talk and his approval is already down to 12%.*

    *) So don’t say that 27% is a universal constant. Mexicans are obviously smarter.

  65. 65.

    Mnemosyne

    January 26, 2017 at 11:11 am

    @FlyingToaster:

    So there are a cohort of 80-year-old women who changed their names when they married and have no birth certificate on file, anywhere. And a Social Security card and a 50-year voting record isn’t good enough.

    Yep. And they have been targeted by design. It’s not accidental.

  66. 66.

    hovercraft

    January 26, 2017 at 11:11 am

    @Russ: Deep down he knows that there was no voter fraud. It’s his defense mechanism, because he doesn’t want to acknowledge:

    They hate me, they really, really hate me :-(

  67. 67.

    Mike S.

    January 26, 2017 at 11:12 am

    @JJ: Yes, we need a recount at least! And maybe a mulligan here in PA!

  68. 68.

    FlyingToaster

    January 26, 2017 at 11:13 am

    @hovercraft: Regarding the credit cards: applications by mail — directly to the state — don’t require a credit card, but they do require a money order or check.

    @Davis X. Machina: As far as I know, VitalChek is the online service that all 50 states accept (Missouri links to them if you want to do an online application rather than mailing it in). Being online-only, they require a credit card — Visa, Mastercard, AmEx, and Discover.

  69. 69.

    Raoul

    January 26, 2017 at 11:17 am

    THis Bob Schooley one is excellent. At least at pressers.

    Minnesota had one of the most closely examined elections ever when we had the damn Franken recount. My recollection was that there were 3 or 4 votes that were “fraud” but they were all ex felons who didn’t understand that they weren’t supposed to vote (some were actually misinformed by their parole officer). And I think 2 of the votes were for Coleman.

  70. 70.

    dr. bloor

    January 26, 2017 at 11:17 am

    Senior State Department officials consider prospect of babysitting Tillerson, collectively tell Trump to fuck off.

    Good times.

  71. 71.

    chris

    January 26, 2017 at 11:17 am

    @Brachiator: Thank you.

  72. 72.

    laura

    January 26, 2017 at 11:18 am

    This stinks. There is absolutely no evidence of voter fraud. Nor was there any during the GW Bush administration. Nor was there when former Chief Justice Reinquist was leading a team of voter intimidators in Arizona, long, long ago.
    It is, and has always been about restrict in the franchise and it’s aways been done by Republicans to benefit Republicans. With one exception, it was done by Democrats or Dixiecrats as part of the Jim Crow system until the Voting Rights Act passed and then enforced by US Attorneys and landmark cases including Brown v. Board of Education. Dixiecrats then moved to the welcoming arms of the Republican party.
    Since then the contortions to roll back voter rights is shocking.

    The goal is not whether an investigation will reveal voter fraud in the 2016 election. The goal is how this bullshit will be used to control future elections. That must not get lost in the coming days.
    Kristen Kobach and Hand Von Spaskovsky are working overtime. Watch those greasy weasles.

  73. 73.

    Timurid

    January 26, 2017 at 11:20 am

    @dr. bloor:

    The scientists are cool and all, but what we really need is a (ex) civil servants’ March on Washington.

  74. 74.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    January 26, 2017 at 11:21 am

    @dr. bloor: The State Department’s entire senior management team just resigned

    That is not at all terrifying.

  75. 75.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    January 26, 2017 at 11:24 am

    Dave Weigel ‏@ daveweigel 20m20 minutes ago
    Sure, the NRA will score the Sessions vote. You think it’s no going to try to replace you with a Republican anyway?

    Also, any Dem silly enough to think *voting against Sessions* will be a 2018 election issue deserves it

    “it” being a primary challenge

  76. 76.

    D58826

    January 26, 2017 at 11:24 am

    OT but in an unusal move the entire senior career state dept. leadership has resigned. Rex has a lot of empty chairs at his next senior stgaff meeting.

    The State Department’s entire senior management team just resigned

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/josh-rogin/wp/2017/01/26/the-state-departments-entire-senior-management-team-just-resigned/?postshare=9331485447307908&tid=ss_tw&utm_term=.599fea9673ef

  77. 77.

    hovercraft

    January 26, 2017 at 11:24 am

    @Calouste: @Calouste:

    The Mexican President is rethinking his planned visit to D.C. Partially because the wall announcement was made at almost the exact moment that the Mexican Minister of Foreign Affairs arrived in D.C. to do preparations for that visit

    He’s trying to take a page from the Bibi playbook, but he’s doing it wrong, he should have waited till he was here, then announced it. They haven’t perfected the art of the diplomatic snub the way Bibi has. SAD!

  78. 78.

    The Moar You Know

    January 26, 2017 at 11:25 am

    It wasn’t too hard to find a list of crazy things that Caligula did when he was in charge of the Roman Empire in the 1st Century.

    @rikyrah: Caligula wasn’t crazy. There really was a conspiracy to kill him, which he fought hard, and they eventually succeeded.

    Where you really want to go looking for some serious off-the-wall behavior by Roman leaders is a couple hundred years later, when things had devolved into one military-appointed ruler after another getting killed by their equally-brief successors, while the Praetorian guard took the candidate’s money happily and robbed the empire into oblivion.

  79. 79.

    Brachiator

    January 26, 2017 at 11:25 am

    @ET:

    Any Republican who is willing to publicly echo Trump’s lies does two things. One is that he proves he is willing to incur costs to his personal reputation in order to defend Trump. The other is that having in fact borne costs to his personal reputation, he objectively ties up his success with Trump’s.

    Republicans don’t care about personal reputation. Democrats probably don’t care either. And right now, defending Trump doesn’t hurt where it really matters: votes and popular support.

    And you have this: The most recent Rachel Maddow show discussed how there is a huge discontinuity with respect to how the average citizen perceives Trump, and how his supporters view him.

    Bottom Line: Trump supporters believe (or say they believe) him about voter fraud. They also believe that Trump protesters are paid by George Soros.

    Forty percent of Trump fans also believe that Hillary Clinton lost the popular vote, despite her margin over Trump exceeding 2.7 million votes. An even greater percentage – 60 percent – think “millions” of people illegally cast their ballots for the former Secretary of State….

    When asked by PPP whether Trump protesters are being paid by George Soros, 73 percent of the incoming president’s supporters said yes. Fifty-three percent think that votes in the state of California should not be included in the popular vote tally.

    You can’t dent this implacable stupidity with honest reporting or any appeal to personal reputation.

  80. 80.

    Steeplejack (phone)

    January 26, 2017 at 11:26 am

    @Mnemosyne:

    Thank you for pointing out the bleedingly obvious. As I said, I was addressing only the “you have to physically go to your birth state” thing.

  81. 81.

    amk

    January 26, 2017 at 11:26 am

    @dr. bloor: So many people are taking their bold and courageous stands while the elected dems are busy ‘choosing their battles’. It’s a fucking political malpractice.

  82. 82.

    rikyrah

    January 26, 2017 at 11:26 am

    Trump is Our Enemies’ Best Recruitment Tool
    by Martin Longman
    January 25, 2017 1:49 PM

    Oh, lookee here, a draft executive order! The New York Times helpfully explains that this order would do all kinds of unsavory things that prove that there’s a wee bit of difference between Trump and Obama, as well as between Trump and Clinton and Republicans and Democrats.

    For example, the executive order would make it possible to begin filling up Gitmo with more detainees after Obama spent his entire eight-year presidency trying to empty it. It would open the door to more black sites like the ones we ran under Bush in Lithuania, Poland, Romania, Thailand, and Afghanistan. Of course, to do that, the order would allow Trump to deny the Red Cross access to our prisoners. The order would also open the door to allowing torture again. To get around a new congressional law that insists our interrogators abide by the Army Field Manual, they may just amend the Field Manual to allow torture.

    So, what we have here is basically a roadmap for bringing back all the most notorious and shameful elements of Bush’s War on Terror.

    When Trump went to the CIA last week, he revisited a belief he has held for a while:

  83. 83.

    MattF

    January 26, 2017 at 11:28 am

    @D58826: Yup. Foggy Bottom just got a lot foggier.

    ETA: I’m guessing that some… very bad thing… happened.

  84. 84.

    Phylllis

    January 26, 2017 at 11:28 am

    Since it is an open thread, if you missed the PBS Independent Lens airing Monday night of The Witness about the Kitty Genovese case, you missed as searing an indictment of the worthlessness of The NY Times as any I’ve seen (not that many of us need more evidence). Her brother Bill interviews Mike Wallace, and his look of utter regret and shame when he realizes just how badly the Times handled the reporting of this case tells you all you need to know.

  85. 85.

    Immanentize

    January 26, 2017 at 11:29 am

    @Smitty: Democtrats really can’t get their shit together fast enough. I think a shadow government would work well in the Trump days — assign one (or more!) senators to be the voice of the caucus for each cabinet position. One or two people who would coordinate messaging with leadership for Justice, Education, Defense, Intelligence, Homeland etc.

  86. 86.

    LAO

    January 26, 2017 at 11:29 am

    The washington post is reporting that the State Department’s entire senior management team just resigned. https://twitter.com/joshrogin/status/824650134948605953

  87. 87.

    Sab

    January 26, 2017 at 11:30 am

    @FlyingToaster: I sent to NC to get my birth certificate for a passport and it took eight months. I damn near missed the wedding .

  88. 88.

    GregB

    January 26, 2017 at 11:32 am

    @LAO:

    Holy shit.

  89. 89.

    LAO

    January 26, 2017 at 11:33 am

    @GregB: It’s pretty f*cking frightening.

    ETA: all of them were career foreign service officers that have served under both Democratic and Republican administrations.

  90. 90.

    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism

    January 26, 2017 at 11:33 am

    @gvg: Taking back the lease is what I wish would happen. But then you get into the question of who has to deal with the liens.

  91. 91.

    Brachiator

    January 26, 2017 at 11:34 am

    @greengoblin:

    They are claiming millions, which is ridiculous. Where would you find millions to vote illegally and how would you organize them to do so?

    How can anyone pursue this with a straight face?

    These goobers are used to it. They previously spent years “proving” that Obama’s birth certificate was fake.

    Trump is a weird small hands man who has an obsessive fondness for idiotic conspiracy theories. And now, as president, he has the authority to use the government to pursue his fantasies, and we citizens can do little but watch this horror show unfold. At least until the Republican majority in Congress get the gonads to impeach Trump’s sorry ass.

  92. 92.

    p.a.

    January 26, 2017 at 11:35 am

    TPM EDBLOG
    Top State Dept Leadership Resigns En Masse

    LAO wins. TPM link

  93. 93.

    liberal

    January 26, 2017 at 11:36 am

    @clay:

    They are completely separate issues, but it supports their agenda to confuse the two.

    The big problem here is that the low-IQ morons in the MSM won’t forcefully push back on this.

  94. 94.

    MattF

    January 26, 2017 at 11:36 am

    @Brachiator: A couple of conservative commentators (Frum, Rubin) noted yesterday that invoking the 25th Amendment is a relatively low bar.

  95. 95.

    LAO

    January 26, 2017 at 11:37 am

    @p.a.: There are no winners here — just losers. ;(

  96. 96.

    FlyingToaster

    January 26, 2017 at 11:37 am

    @Sab: Wow! IIRC, it took me about six weeks back in the ’90s.

    And this is probably a bigger issue in some states than others — here in Massachusetts, we have people whose jobs it is to process incoming mail requests. It’s all they do. I know the staffer at town hall who handles all of the records requrests (in-person, mail, or online).

    It sounds like some states don’t have that staff; it’s on someone’s desk until they get around to it. And it’s not their primary responsibility. Yeesh.

  97. 97.

    Elmo

    January 26, 2017 at 11:38 am

    Echoing all of those who have noted the Post reporting on the mass resignation at the State Department, I’d love to hear what Adam has to say about it. Adam? You out there? Come talk to us!

  98. 98.

    the Conster, la Citoyenne

    January 26, 2017 at 11:39 am

    Jennifer Rubin – Jennifer fucking Rubin!!! is going there today in the WaPo – she’s saying he’s unfit, probably delusional, and she’s appealing to Republicans to call him what he is – a lunatic.

  99. 99.

    rikyrah

    January 26, 2017 at 11:42 am

    @Brachiator:

    You can’t dent this implacable stupidity with honest reporting or any appeal to personal reputation.

    Which is why you gotta say – phuck ’em.

  100. 100.

    liberal

    January 26, 2017 at 11:44 am

    @gvg:

    I think any of them who actually care about the institutions and future processes is going to be uncomfortable doing it before he has done some provable things….maybe after a year.

    That’s silly. There’s absolutely nothing in the Constitution that says an impeachable offense has to be a violation of some statute. They can impeach him for anything they want to.

    That was certainly the case for Bill Clinton. IIRC they claimed they were impeaching him for perjury, but at the time reasonable commentators were pointing out that it was actually pretty reasonable to claim it wasn’t perjury.

    As Brachiator insinuates, they won’t impeach him until he loses support from current Trumptards. IMHO if his popularity sinks low enough and they (the Republican Congress) calculate that impeachment would be a net political gain for them, they’ll immediately proceed to impeachment.

  101. 101.

    Timurid

    January 26, 2017 at 11:45 am

    @p.a.:

    These guys are not fools. They know that Trump’s response will probably be to drive out to the nastiest biker bar in Maryland, find the four thugs with the most visible Nazi tattoos and hire them as their replacements. They know the risk and they did it anyway. Just how desperate are they?

  102. 102.

    Brachiator

    January 26, 2017 at 11:45 am

    @hovercraft:

    @Calouste:

    RE: The Mexican President is rethinking his planned visit to D.C. Partially because the wall announcement was made at almost the exact moment that the Mexican Minister of Foreign Affairs arrived in D.C. to do preparations for that visit

    He’s trying to take a page from the Bibi playbook, but he’s doing it wrong, he should have waited till he was here, then announced it. They haven’t perfected the art of the diplomatic snub the way Bibi has. SAD!

    Actually, the issue here gets pretty deep.

    Remember during the primary or general election when Trump visited the president of Mexico and sounded reasonable, only to return to the US and attend a rally (in Arizona, I think) in which he popped off on how he was going to make Mexico build the wall.

    This created an uproar in Mexico, but also some sad soul searching in which many Mexican pundits spoke about how weak the Mexican president was, and how a good chunk of the Mexican people expect any Mexican leader to bow down and grovel before the US president, and how, in effect a lot of Mexican pride is actually posturing.

    On a recent BBC news podcast, a former Mexican government official noted that the government feels that Trump unfairly ambushed the diplomatic mission by his timing of his executive orders, but no matter what happens next, Mexico will look weak. But Trump only cares about how this plays for his supporters and his own ego. There is no larger foreign policy aim, whereas someone like the Israeli leader is ultimately looking for some political or foreign policy advantage.

  103. 103.

    liberal

    January 26, 2017 at 11:46 am

    @Mnemosyne:

    There used to be ways around this because it’s a known problem, but voter ID laws deliberately took those alternative routes away.

    IANAL, but ISTM this is a violation of the Due Process clause. YMMV.

  104. 104.

    rikyrah

    January 26, 2017 at 11:46 am

    @LAO:

    damn

  105. 105.

    Timurid

    January 26, 2017 at 11:48 am

    @Elmo: After this news he’s probably drinking at his desk. It’s hard to type a post when you’re looking at the screen through the bottom of a shot glass..

  106. 106.

    rikyrah

    January 26, 2017 at 11:48 am

    @Elmo:

    Echoing all of those who have noted the Post reporting on the mass resignation at the State Department, I’d love to hear what Adam has to say about it. Adam? You out there? Come talk to us!

    Yes, please come talk us down, especially after what you wrote yesterday.

  107. 107.

    Immanentize

    January 26, 2017 at 11:48 am

    @dr. bloor: @D58826: @MattF: Reading the article — it seems that these people who resigned were in presidentially appointed positions. All such people resign every time there is a change in presidents (and in some offices, every election). So, this is more like Trump and the Ambassadors — telling everyone in senior positions that they are not staying. In that way, the article is rather inflammatory suggesting the resignations were policy driven.

    Of course this is part of Trump’s great plan to re-create a bad patronage system. Which, we remember from Garfield’s short term, can be the source of much anger.

  108. 108.

    MattF

    January 26, 2017 at 11:49 am

    @Timurid: Also, as Josh Marshall notes, they are all career Foreign Service Officers. Not so easy to replace. Marshall thinks there was a specific precipitating event, which seems likely.

  109. 109.

    The Moar You Know

    January 26, 2017 at 11:49 am

    Fifty-three percent think that votes in the state of California should not be included in the popular vote tally.

    @Brachiator: Somebody now wanna tell me I’m crazy for suggesting California pack up and GTFO of the Union? If we’re paying their bills and get no representation at all, as the actors say, “what’s my motivation?”

  110. 110.

    D58826

    January 26, 2017 at 11:49 am

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne: you know the world has gone thru several wormholes and the odd black hole when J. Rubin makes sense. SAD

  111. 111.

    Immanentize

    January 26, 2017 at 11:50 am

    @Brachiator: And now it is being reported — AFTER the Mexican President stated he may not come to meet with Trump, that NOW Trump may decide not to meet with the Mexican President. You Can’t fire me, I fire you!

  112. 112.

    MattF

    January 26, 2017 at 11:51 am

    @D58826: She drew the line at both Cruz and Trump. Jeb! or Marco would have been fine, but that was then.

  113. 113.

    Brachiator

    January 26, 2017 at 11:51 am

    @MattF:

    A couple of conservative commentators (Frum, Rubin) noted yesterday that invoking the 25th Amendment is a relatively low bar.

    Talk is cheap. What are they basing this on? How, exactly, would the 25th Amendment be invoked. Is someone going to force Trump to undergo some medical or mental evaluation?

  114. 114.

    D58826

    January 26, 2017 at 11:51 am

    @Immanentize: I got the impression from the article that while what you are saying is true, they new admin. usually waits till it fills these positions before accepting the resignations. It’s like tha ambassadors, yes they leave with the oild administraion but usually not until the new guy/gal has filled the post.

  115. 115.

    MattF

    January 26, 2017 at 11:53 am

    @Brachiator: Oh, I agree. But it’s notable that both of them have jumped off this particular cliff.

  116. 116.

    Shalimar

    January 26, 2017 at 11:54 am

    I continue to believe the best idea is to have a national ID card. Increase the size and scope of the group that takes the Census, and simultaneously give everyone a free picture ID card with their status on it. Citizens can vote. Immigrants and any other status that prevents voting are noted. After that, you just need something similar to passports where people can submit new pictures/info and get an updated ID card as necessary.

    Scan the card at the polling station, enter the rolls into a national database at the end of the day, anyone who voted in two locations is guilty of a felony.

  117. 117.

    p.a.

    January 26, 2017 at 11:57 am

    @D58826: Yeah BUT she’s only doing it to save the conservative brand.

    Legit political question: how much am I, you, the Balloon Juice community, ‘progressives’ willing to let the American state and citizens suffer if it leads to a crushing defeat of tRumpist-Rethug-Fux News political influence for the next, say, 20 years (being optimistic there.)

    I personally don’t know how far I am willing to see us fall. People are getting and will get hurt.

  118. 118.

    MattF

    January 26, 2017 at 11:59 am

    @p.a.: We’re getting a real-life version of the ‘worse is better’ theory. My answer to that has always been ‘no, worse is worse’. But we shall see, regardless of what I think.

  119. 119.

    Brachiator

    January 26, 2017 at 12:00 pm

    @liberal:

    That’s silly. There’s absolutely nothing in the Constitution that says an impeachable offense has to be a violation of some statute. They can impeach him for anything they want to.

    They would have to come up with some fig leaf of a “high crime or misdemeanor.”

    Consider the situation of President Andrew Johnson. The U.S. House of Representatives votes 11 articles of impeachment against President Andrew Johnson, nine of which cite Johnson’s removal of Secretary of War Edwin M. Stanton, a violation of the Tenure of Office Act.

    The pretext can be weak, but it can’t be just anything.

  120. 120.

    Immanentize

    January 26, 2017 at 12:01 pm

    @D58826: That is definitely true that it is traditional to wait — just like it is traditional to allow Ambassadors in some posts time to sort out their family lives before being replaced. But Trump is getting rid of every appointee he can in every agency he can — without available replacements. There are so many career people in “Acting” positions in the agencies I deal with (mostly DOJ) that I can’t even….

  121. 121.

    Brachiator

    January 26, 2017 at 12:05 pm

    @The Moar You Know:

    Somebody now wanna tell me I’m crazy for suggesting California pack up and GTFO of the Union?

    This would be crazier than BREXIT, and might have an interesting unintended consequence of a worldwide rejection of the idea of the current arrangement of nation states.

  122. 122.

    D58826

    January 26, 2017 at 12:09 pm

    @Shalimar: I agree. With technology you could expand it’s use to include personal medical information/scripts/ etc. The chip would be configured so the folks at the polling place would only see info relevant to voting, EMT would only see medical info, etc.

  123. 123.

    hovercraft

    January 26, 2017 at 12:10 pm

    @The Moar You Know:

    Okay so not Caligula, perhaps Nero?
    From Wikipedia

    Over the course of his reign, Nero often made rulings that pleased the lower class. Nero was criticized as being obsessed with personal popularity.[70]

    It is uncertain who or what actually caused the fire—whether accident or arson.[85] Suetonius and Cassius Dio favor Nero as the arsonist, so he could build a palatial complex. Tacitus mentions that Christians confessed to the crime, but it is not known whether these confessions were induced by torture.[8] However, accidental fires were common in ancient Rome.[97] In fact, Rome suffered other large fires in 69[98] and in 80.[99] (Eminent domain?)

    In the wake of the fire, he made a new urban development plan. Houses after the fire were spaced out, built in brick, and faced by porticos on wide roads.[86] Nero also built a new palace complex known as the Domus Aurea in an area cleared by the fire. This included lush artificial landscapes and a 30-meter-tall statue of himself, the Colossus of Nero.[87] The size of this complex is debated (from 100 to 300 acres).[102][103][104] To find the necessary funds for the reconstruction, tributes were imposed on the provinces of the empire.[105] <strong>(Mexico will pay, NATO, must pay)

    …. Nero fled Rome with the intention of going to the port of Ostia and, from there, to take a fleet to one of the still-loyal eastern provinces. According to Suetonius, Nero abandoned the idea when some army officers openly refused to obey his commands………

    Nero returned to Rome and spent the evening in the palace. After sleeping, he awoke at about midnight to find the palace guard had left. Dispatching messages to his friends’ palace chambers for them to come, he received no answers. Upon going to their chambers personally, he found them all abandoned. When he called for a gladiator or anyone else adept with a sword to kill him, no one appeared. He cried, “Have I neither friend nor foe?” and ran out as if to throw himself into the Tiber.[150]

    …….. he prepared himself for suicide, pacing up and down muttering “Qualis artifex pereo” which translates to English as “What an artist dies in me.”[152] Losing his nerve, he first begged for one of his companions to set an example by first killing himself. At last, the sound of approaching horsemen drove Nero to face the end. However, he still could not bring himself to take his own life but instead he forced his private secretary, Epaphroditos, to perform the task.[153]

    After Nero’s suicide in 68, there was a widespread belief, especially in the eastern provinces, that he was not dead and somehow would return.[171] This belief came to be known as the Nero Redivivus Legend.

    I swear the Shitgibbon is Nero returned, no where near as smart or competent, but with his narcissism and venality. Click on this painting of Nero and tell me it’s not of the Shitgibbon, I dare you.

  124. 124.

    Brachiator

    January 26, 2017 at 12:10 pm

    @rikyrah:

    RE: You can’t dent this implacable stupidity with honest reporting or any appeal to personal reputation.

    Which is why you gotta say – phuck ’em.

    Ha! I agree.

  125. 125.

    Brachiator

    January 26, 2017 at 12:12 pm

    WTF??

    State Dept. senior management team resigns: report

    The State Department’s entire senior level of management officials resigned Wednesday, The Washington Post reported.

    Patrick Kennedy, the agency’s undersecretary for management who had served in the role for nine years, resigned unexpectedly along with three of his top officials

    Assistant Secretary of State for Administration Joyce Anne Barr, Assistant Secretary of State for Consular Affairs Michele Bond and Ambassador Gentry O. Smith, director of the Office of Foreign Missions, resigned as well, the report said.

    All of them served under both Democratic and Republican administrations.

    They join a number of other officials who have departed since President Trump took office last week.

    Assistant Secretary of State for Diplomatic Security Gregory Starr retired, and director of the Bureau of Overseas Building Operations Lydia Muniz left on Friday.

    “It’s the single biggest simultaneous departure of institutional memory that anyone can remember, and that’s incredibly difficult to replicate,” said David Wade, who served as State Department chief of staff under Secretary of State John Kerry.

    “Department expertise in security, management, administrative and consular positions in particular are very difficult to replicate and particularly difficult to find in the private sector.”

  126. 126.

    D58826

    January 26, 2017 at 12:13 pm

    @rikyrah: Adam is on the newest thread for those who want to pick it up there

  127. 127.

    MattF

    January 26, 2017 at 12:14 pm

    @hovercraft: A case of convergent evolution.

  128. 128.

    Aleta

    January 26, 2017 at 12:15 pm

    Intimidating student voters is part of R strategy too. Last November (quotes from Wapo)

    The governor of Maine told college students Monday to establish residency in Maine if they choose to vote there, and warned that state officials would pursue every legal means to verify that students who voted were complying with state law. That prompted critics to say he was illegally intimidating voters, and to call on federal officials to investigate.

    At the same time as his statement, flyers were distributed on a college campus

    warn(ing) of “hundreds of dollars” in likely taxes and fees for students who register to vote, which Maine Secretary of State Matthew Dunlap, a Democrat, said is untrue because registration does not immediately trigger things such as excise taxes on a car.

    This was in a battleground area for the 2nd district, in a tight race for the House rep that was won by the R, a T supporter put in place 2 years ago. (A former investment banker, wants to deregulate banks.)

    The 2nd district is huge, has locations that mining cos want. LeP has been weakening the EPA and environmental law in Maine since 2011. He and Linda Bean and other Tr people have worked to oppose federally owned land in Maine. The US Forest Service, NPS, FWS and DoD together own about 300,000 acres. (The state owns around 500,000 acres of public reserved land.)

  129. 129.

    Lizzy L

    January 26, 2017 at 12:15 pm

    I recently tried to get a birth certificate from CT for a disabled, slightly cognitively impaired, elderly friend who lives in CA, and lost not only her birth certificate but her Social Security card. Catch-22: in order to get a birth certificate you need proof of residency in the state in which you now reside. In order to get a CA DL or ID, you need a SS card or a birth certificate. In order to get a new SS card, you need proof of residency and identity. If you don’t have any of the appropriate government issued docs, you are asked to send Vitalchek a bunch of other docs, such as a lease agreement, utility bill, and so on. I paid Vitalchek their $40 fee and emailed them everything they asked for, and nuh-uh, they kept sending me messages that they couldn’t process the request because they didn’t have enough information.

    Finally I called the town clerk in the town in which my friend was born. She was extremely helpful. She had access to the Vitalchek records. The only thing she needed to see was the front page of my friend’s expired passport. I was able to fax it to her. The b.c. arrived within a week. A month later we went to the DMV and got a CA I.D. Next stop: the Social Security office. But Vitalchek didn’t work (and there was no way to talk to a human being, and they kept the $$ despite not providing the b.c.) and my friend, being slightly impaired due to seizures, would never have been able to do what was necessary, since, among other things, she cannot fax stuff from home, and going out and finding a fax machine is not easy for someone in a wheelchair who cannot go out alone.

    So no, getting a birth certificate is not always simple.

  130. 130.

    D58826

    January 26, 2017 at 12:17 pm

    Pres. of Mexico has cancelled his trip according to the WAPO. Somebody should make a TV show out of the book How to win friends and influence people. Maybe Trump would watch it. He certainly won’t read the book

  131. 131.

    hovercraft

    January 26, 2017 at 12:20 pm

    @Brachiator:
    I remember, but it was even worse than that, Pena Nieto was getting huge blowback for holding the “summit” in the first place, remember they took the Shitgibbon by helicopter because of the security nightmare, a combination of inadequate notice and the huge protests. They had to quickly point out that they had invited Hillary too, the Arizona rally afterwards just poured gas onto an or control inferno. He has been hated ever since he came down the escalator and called them rapists. Pena Nieto was vilified before and after, the Arizona just proved the point his critics made in the first place, he is vile and no friend to Mexico. The twitter kerfuffle after the visit was also seen as a weak response.

  132. 132.

    Kelly

    January 26, 2017 at 12:21 pm

    @Brachiator: implacable stupidity
    Oh my. This fits so many discussions with my Republican relatives and neighbors over many, many years.

  133. 133.

    Kay

    January 26, 2017 at 12:24 pm

    I wish Trump’s nominee for AG would be asked about this. These people are public employees. They have a duty to protect the right to vote for all Americans. It isn’t complicated- we’re paying them to do this. If they don’t want to do it they should go find other work.

    It isn’t optional or a matter of opinion. Are they planning on protecting the rights of all Americans or not? If the answer is “no” then they are public employees who are not performing the minimum job duties.

    This is the same bullshit they did w/the birth certificate. They took an ordinary records process and covered it with nonsense and doubt and idiocy. Don’t fall for it. This is simple. Tens of thousands of ordinary poll workers understand it. If no one in the Trump Administration understands it then we’re talking about an extremely low quality workforce.

    If you have a question on voting process don’t listen to the President or his people or Congressional Republicans. Call your local bd of elections and ask someone. They will know. You will get much better information from any random county employee than you will from anyone Trump hires.

  134. 134.

    Brachiator

    January 26, 2017 at 12:31 pm

    @D58826:

    Pres. of Mexico has cancelled his trip according to the WAPO. Somebody should make a TV show out of the book How to win friends and influence people. Maybe Trump would watch it. He certainly won’t read the book

    US President snubbed. That’s gotta burn, and will no doubt lead to some wild Twitter outbursts.

    UK Prime Minister Theresa May has an upcoming visit. She had visions of a repeat of Reagan/Thatcher sugarplums dancing in her head. Now, I wonder if she is dreading the possibility of some public relations nightmare.

  135. 135.

    Kay

    January 26, 2017 at 12:32 pm

    I can’t imagine anything worse than the collection of mediocrities, incompetents and conspiracy theorists Donald Trump has surrounded himself with getting their bumbling paws on voting process.

    None of them understand this simple state recording process, as they have demonstrated over and over- a process that tens of thousands of ordinary poll workers understand. Please distract them with some shiny object – jiggle the keys. No one needs their “help”. They will make anything they touch worse.

  136. 136.

    Mnemosyne

    January 26, 2017 at 12:35 pm

    @Steeplejack (phone):

    I am a little embarrassed to say that until rikyrah pointed it out, it was not, in fact, bleedingly obvious to me. It never occurred to me that not everyone was born in a hospital, and that it kept happening well into the 20th century. So, yes, I think it’s important to keep repeating it since I’m sure there are other people out there who are as ignorant as I was.

  137. 137.

    D58826

    January 26, 2017 at 12:36 pm

    @Brachiator: She has already stepped in it by agreeing to attend the GOP retreat w/o making a similar visit to the democrats. Seems that tradition is you do both.

  138. 138.

    Arclite

    January 26, 2017 at 12:47 pm

    Voter suppression: it’s a feature, not a bug. And all Trump voters support it, since it means the blahs and other undesirables don’t get to vote.

  139. 139.

    Brachiator

    January 26, 2017 at 1:01 pm

    @D58826:

    She has already stepped in it by agreeing to attend the GOP retreat w/o making a similar visit to the democrats. Seems that tradition is you do both.

    And she was trying so hard to appear to be a capable leader.

    She’s certainly no Nicola Sturgeon.

  140. 140.

    Brachiator

    January 26, 2017 at 1:13 pm

    @Mnemosyne:

    I am a little embarrassed to say that until rikyrah pointed it out, it was not, in fact, bleedingly obvious to me. It never occurred to me that not everyone was born in a hospital, and that it kept happening well into the 20th century. So, yes, I think it’s important to keep repeating it since I’m sure there are other people out there who are as ignorant as I was.

    I’m not sure that this is a huge deal when you consider all of the South, and pre-1964 is too recent a date.

    Still, the issue of voter fraud and the necessity of photo IDs is BS. Hell, there are elderly people who no longer drive, and who have given up driver’s licenses and no longer have a photo ID.

    HOWEVER, the rise of identity theft is making photo IDs and other identification issues important in ways they weren’t before.

  141. 141.

    ruckus

    January 26, 2017 at 1:28 pm

    @Brachiator:
    Ignorance can be fixed, but stupidity can not. Of course there is willful ignorance but there’s usually a full course of stupidity running parallel.

  142. 142.

    catclub

    January 26, 2017 at 2:01 pm

    @hovercraft: Trump has in his head that we will pay for the wall by confiscating all remissions of cash made to Mexico. The fact that this is blatantly illegal does not bother Trump, and his minions probably feel little desire to enlighten him on the facts.

  143. 143.

    The gray adder

    January 26, 2017 at 4:05 pm

    @Thoroughly Pizzled: Wouldn’t it be something if we found out one day that a whole bunch of dead people voted for Trump in PA, MI, and WI?

  144. 144.

    The gray adder

    January 26, 2017 at 4:10 pm

    I am fairly certain that I’m still registered to vote in New York, although I moved out of state and just received my voter registration card the other day. No, I’m not about to fly to Syracuse on Election Day so I can cast a second ballot. For one thing, Albany is sure to ask me why I didn’t file a tax return, seeing as I would have just declared that I didn’t actually move out of state.

  145. 145.

    The gray adder

    January 26, 2017 at 4:15 pm

    @hovercraft: He certainly cannot play the violin, and I’m not sure he knows how matches work. Some Nero. I’m still calling him that, though.

  146. 146.

    bemused senior

    January 26, 2017 at 7:52 pm

    @Mnemosyne: They also accept debit cards.

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