I’ve been an atheist since age 13, but I was raised a Christian, and in part by fairly rabid fundamentalist Southern Baptist grandparents. As antediluvian as their political views were (and they were friendly with Jesse Helms!), I think even my grandparents would be ashamed of Trump’s ban on Muslims from Muslim-majority countries that don’t do business with Trump Inc.
It’s as revolting an act of bigotry and cowardice as I’ve seen from my government in my lifetime, and that’s saying something. It goes against the founding principles of this nation and gives lie to claims of “American exceptionalism” and leadership of the “free world” — the smug, arrogant posturing most avidly engaged in by the assholes who voted for Trump.
That’s sickening enough, but it’s not just the MAGA-hat Trumpsters who are applauding the shitgibbon’s decision to piss all over America’s founding ideals. Here’s Peggy Noonan, she who once spun a tale about magic dolphins in support of another refugee:
This is big — and great — news. Brody: Trump Says Persecuted Christians Will Be Given Priority As Refugees https://t.co/3LtF1qVDyH
— Peggy Noonan (@Peggynoonannyc) January 27, 2017
So a religious test is imposed in 2017, and it’s the Constitution-humpers and writers of patriotic paeans to a “City on a Hill” who rush to embrace it. Not at all surprising, but disgusting nonetheless. It’s un-American, and it’s profoundly un-Christian. If I’m wrong about the afterlife, Noonan and Mr. Two Corinthians better hope St. Peter doesn’t administer purity tests at the checkpoint.
Caphilldcne
So completely agree with you. I’m ashamed of America and embarrassed by the cowardice of the population that supports this.
Corner Stone
I got the Narcosleepy!
rikyrah
It is absolutely ridiculous ????
Villago Delenda Est
These people are not Christians. They are Mammon and Moloch worshipers.
amk
a rabblerouser for a rabid base. peak wingnut.
Big Ole Hound
“christians” being as unchristian as their ideals allow. As a fellow athiest I find this very amusing.
Peale
Yes. Supporting the lie that Obama was excluding Christians. And because they’ll buy that lie, Iranian students will be joining ISIS. Might as well believe anything.
Corner Stone
One of my best friends is from Syria. He’s been in the US for almost 20 years and I have known him for about 15 of them. His almost entire tribe (his description) is getting wiped out fighting against Assad. He will most likely never be allowed to return home to visit their graves or whatever final resting place they achieve.
This is a fucking tragedy and a moral disgrace. So heartbreaking.
amk
Jerzy Russian
People willing to blow themselves for a cause to do harm to us would never lie about their religion in order to come here. Also, they will totally rethink everything they are doing when this policy is implemented.
Doug!
Sorry, but Peggy Noonan *is* a MAGA-hat type.
Even Dick Cheney came out against this.
matryoshka
You know it’s only a matter of time before the tests focus in on who is really Christian: the Baptists? Mormons? Catholics? Presbyterians? Methodists? Who else will there be to hate and fight when all the rest of us are dead or deported?
delosgatos
He’s playing well with this crowd: https://www.autostraddle.com/i-was-trained-for-the-culture-wars-in-home-school-awaiting-someone-like-mike-pence-as-a-messiah-367057
Villago Delenda Est
@matryoshka: It will come down to a right-handed man fighting a left-handed man in the rubble over the corpse of a rat.
GregB
As they say: By their fruits you shall know them.
Corner Stone
@matryoshka:
I wonder how many fronts they can fight at one time? How many enemies are on their list right now?
Villago Delenda Est
@delosgatos: More enemies of the Constitution of the United States who will eventually have to be dealt with.
JPL
I wonder how many folks are now in limbo, because they went abroad for business or pleasure. This is just awful.
JMG
A military affairs writer on twitter noted this will be a boon for the fake document business in the entire Arab world. Not that the countries that aren’t on the banned list have corruptable officials who’ll just give you a real passport for cash or anything like that.
Peale
Honestly, while I’m concerned about an expressed preference for Christian refugees over non-Christian ones, I’m less bothered by that were it only to apply to refugees. What is more concerning is that I think the EO is far broader than refugees.
SiubhanDuinne
The “Christian” hypocrisy is ugly, cruel, and vindictive enough on its own, but to me
is the most blatant, in-your-face example of his — I don’t even know the best term; both “emoluments” and “conflict of interest” now seem weak and clichéd. He’s going for an unConstitutional twofer: bigoted religious discrimination that simultaneously enriches him.
Eight days ago, I knew he’d be bad but I didn’t know even he would be this bad, this soon. Can hardly imagine what the media’s traditional “First Hundred Days” roundups are going to look like.
rikyrah
They are NOT Christians.
Period.
Larkspur
@JPL: Joy Reid just interviewed an expert (damn, can’t remember his name right now, but he’s not an obscure guy) who says he personally knows of an Iraqi who used to work for the US who was just prevented from leaving Iraq for the US – along with his wife and their 4 year-old daughter. They were at the damn airport.
Peale
@JPL: yep. This is about all immigrants from those countries. For all intents and purposes, a person who is living in this country but was outside the country yestderday was deported even though they were following the rules. These are people who went through the process of obtaining a green card. If you are Iranian, it will be up to your givernment and the Trump government suddenly getting along if you are going to return.
Gin & Tonic
I have to admit I didn’t pay much attention when my kids took American History in high school, to see how their texts treated Presidents such as Buchanan or Harding, let alone Nixon. I now admit that I will be fascinated to see how my grandchildrens’ (most as yet unconceived) history classes will treat this period – if I live to see that.
Villago Delenda Est
@SiubhanDuinne: 15 was it of the 9/11 hijackers came from Saudi Arabia? Were not Saudi nationals given emergency trips out of the country in the wake of that?
Gin & Tonic
@Larkspur: Here you go.
Gin & Tonic
@Villago Delenda Est: 19 of 20.
Villago Delenda Est
@amk: That was then, this is now. The problem here is that Dense isn’t clever enough to say that.
Brachiator
This thing about persecuted Christians being given priority, and how Noonan so happily embraces it, is just despicable.
Equally foul is how masterfully Trump taps into the narrow, wrongheaded, spiteful resentments of the absolute worst of his supporters.
So let’s see. Trump would rescue Burmese Christians, but leave Muslim Rohingya to be brutalized, even though no one has associated these people with Islamic extremism.
And is he going to help Palestinian Christians over any Israeli objections?
What may be telling will be the degree to which Congressional Republicans back Trump on this, and whether the craven bastards will acknowledge the degree to which they have abandoned the Constitution.
Such a mean, petty, little man. Playing with the lives of so many helpless people, and indulging the worst instincts of Americans who have given into fear and pointless cruelty.
Yoda Dog
I get prouder of standing with democrats every day. There’s a march in Raleigh on Monday, January 30th with Dr. Barber, if any raleighites are interested.. (JuJu? Are you here?) Anyways, Im excited for that and plan on rocking a green balloon in case any BJers are out there.
Have a great Saturday, all.
ETA: Really hoping to meet the good doctor too. Now that’s the kind of Christianity I can respect.
Villago Delenda Est
@Larkspur: Adam probably knows people like this, too.
Aleta
@JPL: University students who went home for break. And those who’ve been accepted for this semester or next, have set up their arrangements, paid their fees, bought tickets for their spouse and children. DHS may have been turning students returning from break back last week too.
Nora
@Villago Delenda Est: And isn’t Saudi Arabia one of the countries NOT included on this new list?
Corner Stone
@Larkspur: I believe you are referring to Malcolm Nance who was just on AMJoy. The Iraqi he was referring to was a different person than the one G&T referenced. Malcom’s acquaintance was stopped in Iraq before he could board a flight here. So this ban looks to be damaging our relationships all over the world, and in still vital spots.
Woodrowfan
one of my best students is a young Christian woman from Pakistan whose family had to flee because of persecution against Christians there. They had to take off in the middle of the night and they lost everything. She’s one of the best students I’ve ever had (and a talented artist).
Trump’s order is disgusting and I’d take refugees from EVERY religion (as well as those with none) but persecution against religious minorities in the area* is real. (that’d include those of the “wrong” type of Islam.)
*south Asia and the middle east
SiubhanDuinne
@Villago Delenda Est:
Snopes says no.
DesertFriar
I think Mr Two Corinthians should reread Chapter 7:
Make room for us; we have not wronged anyone, or ruined anyone, or taken advantage of anyone. 2Cor 7:2
MomSense
@SiubhanDuinne:
CORRUPT! He is completely corrupt.
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
@Doug!: she’s also a dim-witted alcoholic, propped up by wingnut welfare.
bystander
@Corner Stone: Nance is a regular on Joy. He knows what he’s talking about and his answers and explanations are always cogent and insightful, if terrifying. Another reason for watching Joy.
Elmo
The rancid cherry on this shit sundae: announcing a preference for Christians on *Holocaust Memorial Day.*
I am so deeply ashamed and angry right now. My God, I thought we were better than this.
Anybody remember that Bruce Willis – Denzel Washington movie The Siege? Willis was clearly the villain, and Tony Shalhoub clearly the innocent victim. If that movie were made today, half the country would boycott it as “politically correct” and an obvious hit job against their Dear Leader.
Larkspur
@Gin & Tonic: Thank you. I looked up the guy on AM Joy and it’s Malcolm Nance. He appeared with Sarah Kendzior and Naveed Jamali. I hope we find out how many people are getting turned away, refused boarding on airlines, and sent back to their countries of origin, and how many are going to die as a result. I can only imagine what it’s costing them in terms of unceasing stress and uncertainty.
PS: I think I’m going to have to get on Twitter. Jeez, I hate the idea, but it may be my duty.
oldster
This is blatantly, facially unconstitutional.
I have to hope that there are lawyers at the ACLU who are already drafting papers to sue over this.
If you want to give priority to persecuted minorities, that’s fine. The US has given preferential treatment to people who can claim to be persecuted by their home governments.
But you have to hand it out to the persecuted of every faith (and no faith) equally.
No religious tests.
I’m sorry, Mr. Khan, you were right: they have never read the Constitution.
Corner Stone
WTF is the Corporate Abortion industry?
Villago Delenda Est
@Nora: Yes. The countries that were the places the 9/11 guys came from are all excluded from the list, and places Donald has business interests in.
Larkspur
@Corner Stone: Who knows? But if it’s a corporation, it’s a person too, so don’t be mean or hurt its feelings.
Aleta
Having to prove one is a Christian while fleeing a destroyed country. Nice touch announcing it yesterday.
Villago Delenda Est
@Woodrowfan: The Iranians are notorious for persecuting the “wrong” flavors of Islam.
Jerzy Russian
@Corner Stone:
Maybe these are the firms that design and build the abortion mills?
aimai
@Aleta: Yes, I’m very worried about this. I’m worried for everyone, actually–this is an enormously ugly thing the US is doing.
Corner Stone
This seems to be the new line that anti-choice assholes are taking, that Planned Parenthood is in it for the money and they sweet talk women into having an abortion so they can profit from that phat babykilling cash.
Aleta
“Good stuff” he said proudly as he signed.
A Ghost to Most
@rikyrah:
From what I’ve seen in my life, they are true christians
chris
The Guardian has a live blog up. Lawsuits and legal opinions are flying.
Corner Stone
Well, this has been a shitshow of a segment on AMJoy. You just can not have two reasonable panelists on to rationally discuss anything if you add a third one who is batshit insane and a shamelessly loud liar.
Just One More Canuck
the fact that he chose to do this on International Holocaust Remembrance Day is disgusting yet unsurprising
Peale
@Woodrowfan: which is why I’m less troubled by this rule when it comes to refugees than most. The number of refugees we take in is tiny compared to the overall numbers of immigrants and non immigrant visas. That were parsinmonious in this area is a separate issue. It’s cruel to say that a Christian refugee is facing more persecution than a Shia Muslim in Pakistan, but we use the refugee program all the time to choose certain persecutions over others. The policy seems to be much broader…are Christian engineering students now to be given preference over Muslim ones? if the policy is about refugees, why ban all types of immigration. Not everyone visiting from these countries is oppressed.
HRA
I am here because a refugee went to great lengths to come to this country. I only know bits and pieces of his journey by what was told to me by relatives. I know he took the same land route as those current refugees after they landed in Greece and went through Europe to Germany. I have a photo of him on the Cunard ship with passengers from 1st class. Yet his name is not on the passenger list. He was my father. Even after he became a citizen of Canada and later the US, he never spoke about his journey and I knew not to ask him.
Corner Stone
Speaking of M Nance, someone on his twit feed just said something I hadn’t gotten around to yet.
Not only does this damage foreign people, and people we have relationships with, this puts every US asset working with these individuals in a load of danger. All those promises are now more garbage than they have ever been. Wonder how they will feel about that.
charluckles
One of the best graduate students I ever encountered was a conservative Iraqi Muslim woman. Respectful to a fault, she was confined to a wheel chair for most of the day, but never let it slow her down. One of the kindest (also laziest, but hey!) professors is a Muslim immigrant who married an American woman. His wife cried on the night of the election because she was deeply afraid for their children.
I am ashamed by the cowardice and ignorance of our nation, I am infuriated that policy is being set by these same cowards.
Larkspur
Joy Reid is spanking Kristan Hawkins, anti-abortion activist and proponent of making IUD and BC pills illegal. The spanking is good, but I wish she’d have just cut Hawkins’s mic. On the other hand, we got a good look at one person who is my adversary.
SiubhanDuinne
@MomSense:
I guess, yeah, that’s the word I was seeking.
louc
One of the oldest admonishments in the Bible, IIRC, was to give succor to the stranger. In fact, most Jews view the fable of Sodom and Gomorrah to be about that, not gay sex as fundies would claim.
I want to bring something else up that’s scary and no one is paying attention to. We are only about 10 state legislatures away from a Constitutional Convention, purportedly on a balanced budget amendment, but since it’s a CC it can be so much more. The Center on Budget Priorities and Policies put this brief out last week. They’re not conspiracy theorists. We’ve got to make sure that Maryland repeals its part in this and make Washington and Minnesota don’t approve.
Larkspur
@Corner Stone: Yep, shitshow is accurate. But at least none of the others was doing a “fair and balanced” approach to the shitshow.
J.
Trump’s actions re refugees and supposed undesirables will result in more hatred of and terror attacks on the United States, not less.
Just One More Canuck
@Corner Stone: you wouldn’t expect them to think that there might be negative consequences, would you? Thinking through your actions is for suckers! We just wanna kick ass
PPCLI
@Peale: Since ISIS regards Shi’a as a heresy punishable by death, I doubt that a lot of Iranians will be eager to join.
SiubhanDuinne
@Aleta:
I truly thought you were joking until I watched the video at the Guardian link that @chris provided.
Peale
So basically if you immigrate to the US and the governments of the Werst overthrow your dictator and the country devolves into chaos, your green card is worthless today. Hey. You did well in life. You’re holding down a job that makes foreign travel possible! Now of course your boss will probably fire you and hopefully the neighbor will be kind enough to continue to feed your cat…
Comrade Scrutinizer
@Corner Stone: All these “panels” on “news” shows need to go the fuck away.
Calouste
@J.: Feature, not bug.
Peale
@PPCLI: yep. It’s kind of like wearing a sombrero to the Puerto Rican chamber of commerce luncheon and wondering why you’re not connecting with the crowd. This is that kind o nuts.
Calouste
As someone posted on my FB feed:
bluegirlfromwyo
@louc: Virginia has one up too. Working with VA Pantsuit Nation to spread the word.
Comrade Scrutinizer
@Just One More Canuck: Negative consequences? Daesh expands, there is a malor terrorist attack, either here or at a Trump property oversees, and
Bannonthe President* declares a national emergency, suspends the Constitution, and Bob’s your uncle. Win-win, amirite?PhoenixRising
@oldster: Already done. But that, too, misses the point.
The executive order which detailed who would be allowed to board or deplane wasn’t revealing until 10 minutes ago. So any immediate effects of this happened because Trump said so.
The rule of law was just destroyed. A POTUS who thinks he can tell who is a citizen by looking at them (“they didn’t look like they should be allowed to vote”) issued a written order that was vague and had not been reviewed by a team of lawyers. So far, he’s over his head. When US Customs agents/ICE agents, in the name of the US, detained or refused admittance to people with visas, they were acting on a press release and Mr. Trump’s say-so.
To be clear, that is not what EOs do, that’s not how any of this works and the details of ‘which country’ or ‘religious tests’ are irrelevant distractions.
Starfish
This issue affects my family. I have a cousin here on a student visa in her last semester of graduate school. She had a paper accepted to a conference in another country. She won’t be able to go for fear of not coming back in. There will also be a brain drain when people like my cousin cannot get work visas after they graduate.
Have several family members who had plans to go to one of the targeted countries this year. Now they are not so sure.
Corner Stone
@Comrade Scrutinizer: Joy has been pretty good the last couple months on not including that one bomb thrower that destroys the segment. Not sure why she felt compelled to include that piece of insanity to contribute on a segment about women and women’s right to choose.
Kryptik
The whole thing reminds me of the part of the Good Samaritan parable that people keep overlooking.
The Samaritan of question wasn’t just a stranger. but of a tribe that had a shared mutual animosity with the Jewish audience that Jesus would have been talking to. A Samaritan was an ‘other’ to them, just the same as a Jew would be an ‘other’ to a Samaritan. Yet this man saved a victim, ignored and left for dead by a priest and a Levite, possibly under excuse of not defiling themselves by touching upon a corpse, left him to an inn to recover, and paid for the man’s expenses while on the mend. A man from a hated social, ethnic, and religious group showed more moral character and more humanity than those exalted by Jewish society, the point Jesus told his followers to look upon and follow that example: to love thy neighbor as you would want your neighbor to love you, in a way that completely removed social or religious status.
Now tell me how many “Christians” have followed this example in this crisis.
cope
Expect Trump to blow the silent christianist, home-schooling, mouth-breathing rabble whistle many, many more times in the days ahead. I expect no less as I continually move the bar down on my expectations of what these deplorables are capable of doing.
JMG
So what will Trump do if he loses in court? I think we know the answer there. And every elected Republican will back him up.
PPCLI
@Gin & Tonic: They were overwhelmingly Saudi, but not quite that uniformly. Ziah was Lebanese, Atta was Egyptian, and al-Shehhi was from UAE (three of the four pilots).
Villago Delenda Est
@PhoenixRising: Eight days ago, Executive Orders were the tool of a tyrant.
Now they’re perfectly OK.
Shalimar
@delosgatos: “By his inept leadership of a small state you will know him. He will be God’s chosen to lead the destruction of humanity.”
Villago Delenda Est
@Kryptik:
None of them, Katie?
Corner Stone
What a crazy freakin’ world we are living in. I fear for my sanity when I find myself agreeing with Jennifer Rubin a majority of the time when she says something on AMJoy.
Is it me? Or has the whole world gone crazy?
Comrade Scrutinizer
@Villago Delenda Est: That’s because they’re being issued by a white person.
Silly man.
Peale
@Comrade Scrutinizer: I wrote about this last night. But…I really wish we wouldn’t talk so much about Isis or Daesh when it comes to this policy. The existence of ISIS and how they’ll respond is really irrelevant. It kind of implies that Muslims are always one step away from going off the deep end and that we need to be extra careful around them or the next thing you know it’s all honor killings and beheadings. Not that it’s completely irrelevant, because we are screening for ties to terrorist organizations all the time. But because of that screening, I really do t think the people who are affected here are just one step away from strapping on a bomb.
Comrade Scrutinizer
@Villago Delenda Est: TBF, many Christians on Twitter are decrying this.
Larkspur
@Corner Stone: Yeah, that Kistan Hawkins person shan’t be re-invited, I would guess. Joy Ann was annoyed. Clearly Hawkins can’t handle a panel appearance. I wanted to slap her, and I usually only feel that way about Paul Ryan and Reince Priebus. I’d want to slap Kellyanne Riefenstahl but I think she might shatter. Messy.
Kryptik
@Villago Delenda Est:
I’m not going to go the full hyperbole on that. I will say that those who are cheering this may as well be the priest and the Levite in this case, leaving refugees to die by the ‘side of the road’.
There are plenty of good Christians who are still fighting on the right side of things. But as a political force, they’re sadly dwarfed by the Evangelical monsters of Predestination, those who refuse to see anyone outside of their ‘tribe’ as their ‘neighbor’. Dwarfed in both number and influence.
matryoshka
@Corner Stone: I suspect the enemies list is long, but they have made no secret of having one. I’m sure it includes members of the press, all Democratic voters, anyone remotely LGBT or sympathetic to same, non-Christians, racial minorities and “foreigners” (with a fluid definition so as not to include Melania). I don’t think the attacks will be particularly well-organized, global, or consistent but random enough to be terrifying to all. Random intervals made the deeper impression and the chaos of not knowing keeps us all more fearful and willing to submit.
@Villago Delenda Est: Yes, because one of them has to be the “better” man. And that is the root of our problem.
PhoenixRising
@Villago Delenda Est: No. This isn’t hypocrisy, or ignorance of what EOs are–this is lawlessness. People have been detained by the state on the basis of a press release. If our immigration agents will arrest people based on ‘he said so’, without a directive that has been developed by lawyers, we no longer need lawyers where we’re going.
Ask yourself this: What WON’T our Border Patrol officers do because Mr. Trump said so?
They could legally have refused to follow that order, and insisted on clarification from OLC or OIG. None did. Their oath wasn’t to a person, it was to a set of laws and when they got permission to ignore the laws from the person…they did.
Larkspur
@Corner Stone: I hate to say it, but the simple answer is “yes”. How’s your 12 year-old handling stuff these days? When he or she gets older and decides to go to UC Berkeley, let me know. I’m not a mother, but I can pinch-hit as a grandma if necessary.
Comrade Scrutinizer
@Peale: I understand what you’re saying, but the disaffection caused by this policy will help feed the pool that Daesh recruits from. Not every (not even the vast majority) of Muslims will be radicalized by this, but Dylann Roofs are everywhere, and not all of them are white supremacists.
Larkspur
@Comrade Scrutinizer: Yes, I know plenty of people who are Christians but definitely not Christianists.
oldster
You know, part of what the right-wingers have never understood, and part of what we are all about to learn, is how much America has always depended on the kindness of strangers.
When I have traveled overseas I have found that the amount of good will that foreigners feel for the US is truly amazing. Oh, sure, they want to criticize the latest atrocity and tell you why Boush is no good. But they care about it, and they want it to do better. They think the US is too powerful, too careless, too short-sighted. But they are attracted to the promise of a better world, and they presume that the heart of America is good, not evil.
That presumption will not be maintained for long.
We have lost our soft power. In simple, concrete terms: the only reason why the US has not suffered a lot more terrorist attacks since 9/11 is because, at some level, there just haven’t been that many people who wanted to attack it.
I’m afraid that will soon change. And when it does, the morons on the right will take it as vindication of their own warped world-view.
It’s all so goddamned sad.
I have always known that the US project would not last for millennia–nothing does. But I never thought I would see it end during my life time.
Peale
@PhoenixRising: yep. That’s also a problem. While we can’t do much about the way trump will make decisions, he doesn’t really have the power to do this, but it happened anyway. I think it will be tied up in lawsuits, but that will be par for the course going forward. People who shouldn’t have to sue will be constantly tied up in lawsuits.
grandpa john
Cue media outrage by the Media pukes who helped him get elected,because he is now doing the things that he repeatedly stated he was going to do if elected.I have no sympathy for the assholes who voted for him if they now get burned, as some one said above from the book of Mathew( by their fruits you will know them ,/i>. He is doing exactly what he said he would do only morons and idiots should have expected anything different
Time to break out new bumper stickers
DON’T BLAME ME, I VOTED FOR CLINTON
Corner Stone
@Comrade Scrutinizer:
My God. Bob actually *is* my uncle. That means we’re like 20% of the way to completing your scenario.
Adria McDowell (formerly Lurker Extraordinaire
There is a very smart, very funny, very nice Iranian doctoral student at USF I owe an apology to.
Mehrdad, I am so sorry. I never thought my country would come to this. Stay safe.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Slow clap Donny, it’s not like terrorist never fraking lie or anything.
Idiots.
Comrade Scrutinizer
@Corner Stone: Doomed. We’re all doomed.
Villago Delenda Est
@Comrade Scrutinizer: We’re talking “Christians” here. People who voted for Donald.
People who actually follow the teachings of Jesus (all descendants of the Civil War breakaway sects automatically excluded) will be protesting this.
Calouste
@PhoenixRising: It’s not even the Border Agents that do that. People are not travelling to the United States because airlines don’t allow them to board, because if they get refused in the US, the airlines are on the hook for flying them back, and maybe a fine as well.
PsiFighter37
What a shitshow. Took one full week to flush all the goodwill Obama had rebuilt down the toilet.
But EMAILS!!!111!11!1
Villago Delenda Est
@Comrade Scrutinizer: They will attack Drumpf’s properties to deliberately provoke this reaction, to further their objective of widening the gap between Daesh-approved Muslims and everyone else on the planet. And Drumpf will give it to them, because he’s as much a creature of the reptilian brain as they are.
Comrade Scrutinizer
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: TBF, the year long vetting process that’s already in place is pretty thorough. So far none of the refugees we’ve allowed into the country have done anything that smelled of terrorism. Some of our own citizens, now…
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@cope:
Speaking as an atheist I can not think a better spokesman for Evangelicals than a pathological lying pedophile into water sports.
zhena gogolia
@Calouste:
Excellent!
zhena gogolia
@Kryptik:
That part isn’t overlooked in my church. I’ve heard it discussed repeatedly and at length, whenever that story is the text of the sermon.
Not all Christians are evangelicals.
Iowa Old Lady
Since this is an Open Thread, it was instructive yesterday to watch Theresa May set Trump up like the political ignoramus he is. At their joint press conference,she calmly told the press that Trump told her he was behind NATO 100%, then turned to him and said, “Isn’t that right?” All he could do was nod.
At the same time, the president of Mexico told Trump to take a hike.
Any other foreign leader watching this, friendly or otherwise, must be happy today.
Mnemosyne
@Comrade Scrutinizer:
This. The crazy people in San Bernardino who decided that they would massacre the husband’s co-workers in the name of “ISIS” didn’t have much of anything to do with organized terrorism, but unstable people can get triggered by shit like this.
I also fully expect a massacre at a mosque inside the US. Assuming, of course, that the crazy person who does it successfully identifies a mosque and doesn’t massacre Sikhs by mistake again like that asshole in Wisconsin did a few years ago.
Miss Bianca
Sorry, all y’all, but didn’t you read what Adam posted last night? Far from being “un-American” – barring the non-white, non-Christian refugee and immigrant is as American as the proverbial apple pie.
The problem is that ever since our inception as a nation, we have had two separate visions warring for our collective soul: one where the idea of freedom from religious persecution meant the freedom of WASPs to persecute everybody else, where “all men are created equal” was understood to mean “white men of property”, and “liberty and justice for all” ditto.
But thanks to the magic of some rightly-revered rhetoric, the other vision – the one that dares extend that vision to “all” – has, occasionally, at great sacrifice and pains and struggle, briefly come to prevail in these yere United States. That’s what we here call “American”.
That vision can prevail again. But never kid yourselves that it’s default “American” – and that bigotry and white supremacy are somehow “un-American”. I’d love to live to see that day – but we’re not going to get there without some further furious struggle.
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
and wearing a bad hair weave.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Comrade Scrutinizer:
Of course, no serious group of terrorists is going to do things to attract attention. That’s why Osama always wanted to recruit westernized, fair skinned Muslims. 911 terrorists came from Germany, but these twats can’t see beyond “Muslim = guy in a head scarf in the desert”
West of the Rockies (been a while)
First Trump came for the Muslim Seven….
Are we going to do nothing, BJers?
Happily, I know the answer is NO! We need to keep the Trump stink on every last one of his supporters, enablers, and sycophants. This aggression will not stand, man.
Davis X. Machina
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
In Latin class, all the first semester quotes-for-the-day are from Horace, and stress Epicurean themes (“Carpe diem”)
In semester 2, they’re all from Cicero, and stress stoic themes. Which gave me a chance to do this little tap dance at the top of Friday’s classes: Stoic cosmopolitanism.
chris
@Mnemosyne: I’d forgotten that. Makes me wonder how sikhsfortrump and moslemsfortrump are taking this new world order. Nah, not enough to go and look.
Alex in NYC
How would your grandparents feel about gay Muslims?
PaulW
I’m enraged about all of this.
My full name is Paul Ernst Wartenberg. I am named for my great-grandfather Ernst Paul, who came here as an immigrant.
I am the son of immigrants.
WE ALL ARE SONS AND DAUGHTERS OF IMMIGRANTS.
And what Trump and his Republican buddies just did is offensive to each and every one of us.
SHAME ON THEM. and Shame on US if we sit by and let this happen.
Corner Stone
@Larkspur: He’s 12 so by definition pretty resilient. My ex tells me she is proud of him because anytime her rwnj asshole mother verbally attacks my ex or says something nutso, my son will start asking her, “But why? Why is it that way? What would make you say that?” and other challenging questions and not back down from her.
I think it makes my ex-MIL hate her daughter a little more each time it happens but, selfishly, it is pure joy to me.
Corner Stone
“I didn’t come from your rib. You came from my vagina.”
HA!
/tweety
*sign seen at the Women’s March
Davis X. Machina
@PhoenixRising:
Whom did their union endorse again? Heimatsicherheitsdienst, the lot of them.
Aleta
This also encourages more street harassment and assaults of anyone in the US who is from (or accused of being from) the targeted countries. As Fuks blares on about Syria and Iran, etc., they are setting up targets for blame after the next questionable explosion incident. And when the next incident is reported, their ‘consultants’ won’t wait 10 minutes before they recite this list of countries as possibilities.
Larkspur
@Corner Stone: Good to hear. See, he is why we cannot allow doomsday. No one’s life is free from hardship and conflict, but I want him to grow up strong and compassionate, and I want him to have agency to make a good life for himself.
Davis X. Machina
@Aleta: We had a window-smashing incident at an ethnic grocery catering to Arabs, Somalis, Sudanese, here in Portland (ME) last week.
Darkrose
@rikyrah: I really feel like people who claim to read the Bible literally seem to have missed this bit:
Unlike a lot of the Bible, this is really fucking clear.
Comrade Scrutinizer
@PhoenixRising: The EO was signed yesterday afternoon. AFAIK, EOs are effective immediately. The President* is starting to sign EOs without releasing their content to the press right away. Leni made a point of saying yesterday that the President* and his lackeys weren’t necessarily going to announce the content of EOs immediately.
StringOnAStick
We have a long-planned vacation to Costa Rica coming up, starting next Saturday. Of the 4 of us going, 3 are Jewish but we’re all US citizens by birth so I’m not worried we won’t get back home, but I am worried about how much more the krazy is going to keep ramping up here while we are gone and I’m not able to monitor the news.
Fortunately I learned how to say “I weep for my country” in Spanish thanks to a Women’s March sign, so I’ve got that going for me.
Mnemosyne
@Darkrose:
I’ve been saying for a while that I think the fetus fetishists think they’ve identified a cheat code in verse 40 — all they have to do is identify the absolutely very “least” among us and help only those people, and they can ignore the rest of the list. They decided that fetuses fit that bill, and they were off to the races.
Darkrose
@Mnemosyne: OT, but I wasn’t on yesterday–how’s your mom? How’re you doing?
StringOnAStick
We’re leaving for a trip to Costa Rica next Saturday, and while all 4 of us are citizens by birth, 3 of us are Jewish. I’m not worried about getting back home but maybe I should be given just how much more krazey can happen while we are gone and I can’t easily monitor the news. It feels like every norm about how government is supposed to function and how international interactions occur has just been tossed in the blender.
I did learn how to say “I weep for my country” in Spanish at the Women’s March, so I’ve got that going for me.
Aleta
@Davis X. Machina: Has it been called a hate crime by the AG? Surprisingly, the Maine AG declined to classify this incident in Bangor (against a black man who came from Somalia as a child) as a hate crime, and now the drunk white Trump supporter who assaulted him is suing. http://bangordailynews.com/2016/11/21/news/bangor/council-members-denounce-alleged-pro-trump-attack-as-hate-crime/
Mnemosyne
@Darkrose:
She’s doing pretty well, thanks! The one complication we’ve run into is that she has early stage COPD, and that made it harder to take her off the breathing tube (her blood levels of CO2 were too high). Now it looks like she may need to do a (hopefully short) stay in a rehab facility before she gets to go home. All of her other vitals are strong, though, so her odds are very good.
Ruckus
@oldster:
The Constitution, the teachings of Jesus, the laws of the country they temporally own, the opinions of the majority of the country……..
There are lots of things they haven’t read or understood. How to be an actual human for one.
I’m not all that much of a good person because I frequently expect the worse of people, because so many have proven that that is all they have. I always expected drumpf to be the worst but he has very rapidly proven that not only is he the worst, he attracts the worst around him as well. If we live through this bullshit, maybe, just maybe we can become better as a nation.
But I’m not holding my breath.
Davis X. Machina
@Davis X. Machina: Mosque burning in Texas…
Darkrose
@Mnemosyne: That’s good! Don’t forget to get some rest and take time for yourself while you’re caring for her.
Aleta
@Davis X. Machina: Will the Texas press quote ‘experts’ who suspect Christians are behind this? (I think not.)
Ruckus
@A Ghost to Most:
That’s rather harsh isn’t it? I do imagine there are lots of people on here who agree with the majority on this blog who also claim to be christian and would be offended. Me, if I were not already a manic disbeliever, would be questioning my faith, at least in regards to a portion of my fellow man.
There is a certain level of validity to the statement though.
SiubhanDuinne
@Davis X. Machina:
That makes me weep.
Aleta
@Ruckus: Some of the church-going Christians in my family (and they were not supporters of the left politically) spoke out against Bush/Cheney when they invaded Iraq, even saying Bush/Cheney were not Christians if they did this. I think there will be churches who openly denounce Trump, too.
Gvg
@Caphilldcne: I am not ashamed I am American. I am ashamed They Are American. I refuse to let them define me. It’s not like I was fooled and voted for any of these nuts. It’s more than Trump, most republicans have been fear of other for a long time.
AMinNC
@Yoda Dog: I’m sick as a dog right now, so I’m guess in Monday is out of the question for me, but I’ll be there on Sat, Feb 11th for the Mass Moral/Forward Together March!
Mnemosyne
@Darkrose:
Unfortunately, I’m not caring for her — my brother in Illinois is. I’m just worrying from a distance.
I think that once the whole rehab-or-not thing gets sorted out, I’ll probably go out there for a week or so to give him some relief. He’s pretty stressed by the whole thing, but she didn’t want me to come out because she thinks her younger sister can do everything.
Darkrose
@Mnemosyne: Oh dear. Well, more *hugs* and hang in there.
Yoda Dog
@AMinNC: Cool! I’ll be there for that one too! Take good care of yourself and feel better!
J R in WV
@Villago Delenda Est:
Yes,, while every commercial airliner was grounded, the US government allowed a private flight – the only allowed private flight – back to Saudi Arabia for mostly members of the bin Laden family. Pretty interesting, isn’t it?
And now people from Saudi Arabia are allowed into the country, despite the fact that Saudi Arabia funds most of the fundamentalist Islamic groups fomenting terrorism all over the world. And the fact that Wahabism, the most fundy of all the fundamentalist strains of Islam, was invented and propagated in Saudi Arabia, with government money, from oil profits.
Ruckus
@Aleta:
Oh I agree, not all christians are “christian terrorists,” any more than all muslims are terrorists, any more than all Iranians or all……. are. But the parallels between the muslim terrorists and the christian terrorists are eerily similar.
Lizzy L
Checking in. I’m on public transit so on my phone. Just as angry and horrified this morning as I was last night. We will fight and we will win. Later, jackals!
J R in WV
@Corner Stone:
That would be Planned Parenthood and all the other similar groups whether affiliated with Planned Parenthood formally or not. If you are in favor of family planning (ie birth control -> chemical abortion) you are part of Corporate Abortion Industry.
We donate to Planned Parenthood each month, thus I expect to be indicted for conspiracy to commit murder eventually if these anti-Constitutional christian fascists continue to gather power.
Gelfling 545
@Comrade Scrutinizer: Even Dick Cheney is decrying this. And when you lose to Cheney in the humanitarian stakes…..
Well, I am amazed and lnow not what to say.
oldster
So Kevin Drum has posted the language that is intended to favor Christians:
“Upon the resumption of USRAP admissions, the Secretary of State, in consultation with the Secretary of Homeland Security, is further directed to make changes, to the extent permitted by law, to prioritize refugee claims made by individuals on the basis of religious-based persecution, provided that the religion of the individual is a minority religion in the individual’s country of nationality. Where necessary and appropriate, the Secretaries of State and Homeland Security shall recommend legislation to the President that would assist with such prioritization.
So I figure that means that Sunni get a free pass on getting out of Shia-dominated Iraq, right?
And the really good news? Atheists are a persecuted minority *every* f’ing where, so we get a free pass, too.
NotMax
One week ago: “preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States”
Liar from the get-go.
Raven Onthill
Short sermon
It is unchristian and hateful to turn away refugees and tear people from their families. It is unchristian and hateful to deny succor to the poor and sick. It commanded in the bible that Christians take in the homeless and care for the poor and sick.
And when these sanctimonious hypocrites start spouting on how hateful people who oppose Trump are (and I’ve seen a passel of them) you can throw this in their faces.
Bill Arnold
Since this is an open thread, a reminder that
(1) The Trump administration is full of hyper-partisan people who are vindictive and have the tools of the surveillance state at their beck and call, with only the courts to moderate them. (Hah!)
(2) eff.org (Electronic Frontier Foundation) has a bunch of tutorials on operational and communications security for civilians.
One of interest is their tutorial on use of the Signal end-to-end-encryption message/voice communications app. (Recommended by a lot of experts, open source, and easy to use while still not making any obvious security compromises at least to my eye. (Not a specialist but rather paranoid)).
How to: Use Signal on iOS
How to: Use Signal for Android
Also see Security Tips Every Signal User Should Know(The Intercept)
Raven Onthill
You can also tell them, “There is nothing that Muslims do that Christians have not also done in the near past. Even FGM has been practiced by Christians in the USA (for ‘medical’ reasons), as recently as 1950.”
opiejeanne
@Davis X. Machina: Clever.
You just reminded me: We had a club in HS called Disciples of Diogenes.
Mnemosyne
@Raven Onthill:
I even have the chapter and verse for you: Matthew 25:31-46, aka the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats.
Nothing about fetuses in there. Funny, that.
Amaranthine RBG
@Bill Arnold:
And remember that most ISPs retain a log of every website you visit and header information from your emails for 18 months or more.
Raven Onthill
@Davis X. Machina: and apparently, JC agreed.
Woodrowfan
@J R in WV: that’s actually not true.
http://www.snopes.com/rumors/flights.asp
Corner Stone
@Woodrowfan: Ah, everyone knows Snopes is Fake News!
Bill Arnold
@Amaranthine RBG:
For the first, Tor browser
Also use consider using a VPN with endpoints known for not cooperating with (Five Eyes) authorities.
I still haven’t worked out something plausible for email metadata security. Anyone?
Lurking Canadian
@Mnemosyne: Maybe. I think their “cheat code” is the “Third Dispensation” stuff. As I understand it, they think the teachings of Jesus were only a valid representation of the Will of God until Jesus died.
So it doesn’t matter what the words in red say, except for stuff that comes after the resurrection. The actual message is in Paul and (somewhat) in John. Matthew, Luke & Mark are for suckers.
West of the Cascades
@Kryptik:
Right – and another piece that some folks (coughFakeChristianscough) overlook is the context and the end of the parable and the injunction to show mercy to those who are vulnerable, which seems particularly relevant at this juncture. A Torah lawyer had asked how you inherit the kingdom of heaven, and after some rhetorical parrying answered his own question “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” But then he asked Jesus “who is my neighbor?” The response was the Good Samaritan parable, but at the end it was Jesus who asked the lawyer “which of those was the neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of the robbers?” The lawyer had learned enough to answer “the one who showed him mercy.” Jesus said, well, go and do likewise.
The Good Samaritan story isn’t mainly about replicating the Samaritan’s good deed, which is all a lot of FakeChristians take from it – it’s about showing mercy and compassion to those who are different than you and who are suffering – they are the neighbors that require love. A good sermon in a real Christian church would be preaching that Muslim refugees are our neighbors and we must show them mercy.
Mortal Coyle
This is tribalism’s big push-back. Our Divider in Chief is trying to separate us all rather than uniting the nation & world. In a similar vein, I just finished a post on the rural, fundamentalist Drumpf voter – appreciate any comments you may have:
http://mortalcoyle.blogspot.com/2017/01/a-critical-dilemma-are-democrats.html
Thanks!
Larkspur
@Mnemosyne: Hiya. This is OT but the other day you were talking about pu$$yhats in a style suitable for one’s summer wardrobe needs, weren’t you? Because I’m thinking something lighter weight and lacy but still stretchy would be good, especially if we could make it compatible with wearing a sun visor. It wouldn’t necessarily have to attach to the visor; that gets complicated. But if it could be made so that it didn’t interfere with the visor, and maybe if it had a ponytail port, that’d be very cool. You can see that I am freaking out because I can’t talk about religion right now, it’s just Too Much. I’m going to go pet the cavalier King Charles spaniel I am dog-sitting for. We just did a long walk. He has a lot of energy, like he has an On and Off button, no in-between. He’s Off right now, doing little snores. I should probably let him sleep a little more. OMG, he is so cute and knows nothing about Trump or any of the rest of it.
Bendal
One of my ex-employees left to form her own engineering consultant firm (yes I said “her”). She and her husband are both Iranians and have lived here for decades, their families left during the Iranian Revolution in the 70’s. She regularly visits her family members in Iran; he cannot return because Iran considers him a draft dodger and would arrest him on sight. I doubt she will be visiting them any time soon given this weekend’s events even if she is a naturalized citizen. She “looks” foreign so obviously she must BE foreign, right?
Central Planning
@Betty Cracker: I don’t remember when I identified as an atheist, but I do remember being middle-school aged and having friends be totally flabbergasted when they asked if I believed in God and I said “No.”
I’m sure going to “Sunday school” at a UU church didn’t help/hurt things, but the kids I had to hang with certainly put me off the whole church thing. The only reason to go was to get good snacks after the service.
Johannes
@Villago Delenda Est: Unfortunately, you’re right.
Johannes
@Villago Delenda Est: Easy, there with the generalizations, please; MLK and Desmond Tutu comes to mind. Some of us do try, y’know, and are as appalled and outraged at the Christianists as you are.
ETA: Sorry, I didn’t see your rejoinder to Kryptik when I posted; didn’t mean to pile on…
Jaker/Dublin/Ireland
The following is a comment I sent to your comment page on Dec.13, 2016
214. Jaker says:
December 13, 2016 at 12:35 am
I say, Trump should be impeached now before he is ever inaugurated (deadline is drawing near when he’ll be over the line) so stop him now, because you’ll have to do it when he becomes President, maybe even within the first 100 days. To me, he’s like two Mad-hatters for the price of one. Oh, and he’s a criminal…a rich one at that.
PS. As regards him saying the Christians are suffering in Syria more than the Muslims, well, he’s a “Hypocrite”. Didn’t he say at his Inauguration that all blood is the same colour?! Hypocrite!