An important point from @brianbeutler on what the exec order really tells us about the Trump White House:https://t.co/bITgRx7WOr pic.twitter.com/pPvBdJLNav
— Greg Sargent (@ThePlumLineGS) January 31, 2017
Mattis, Kelly and Tillerson have all made clear to associates that they were not involved in writing the refugee EO https://t.co/YxbO3nhPtA
— Julie Pace (@jpaceDC) January 31, 2017
Victory has a thousand fathers, defeat is an orphan. https://t.co/5cWMZceiQQ
— Jeet Heer (@HeerJeet) January 31, 2017
People are making the same mistake they made in the primaries and the general. Trump's order not terribly unpopular. https://t.co/E4T3kOfOt9
— Sean T at RCP (@SeanTrende) January 31, 2017
Much More than half supported Nixon in 1972. Two years later he was gone. https://t.co/uOT5xpNzLa
— Howard Dean (@GovHowardDean) January 31, 2017
Comparisons to Nixon's Saturday Night Massacre are a bit misguided, in that Nixon at least had a general idea of what the hell he was doing.
— John Dingell (@JohnDingell) January 31, 2017
The problem with Trump's ban isn't how it polls now, it's how it galvanizes opposition & colors his Presidency with chaos and incompetence
— Dan Pfeiffer (@danpfeiffer) January 31, 2017
Looking at how the ban has radicalized opposition to Trump, only comparison I can think of is the fallout from the 1850 fugitive slave law.
— Jamelle Bouie (@jbouie) January 31, 2017
Yeah. I knew it would be popular enough. I mean Jesus. If you haven’t noticed, the press tends to be discussing this in terms of whether or not it helps or hurts ISIS, which kind of lends support to the idea that these refugees are somehow linked to the GWOT and have but two choices in life: either they come here and we’re nice to them, or they stay there and throw homosexuals from building. There really aren’t a lot of options. Thank god that five year old was handcuffed and there was an interpreter involved or the press would lose the plot entirely. This change was grossly misapplied to peaceful everyday people who have already been screened for potential ties to terrorism and what happened to them was unjust. They aren’t ISIS drones just waiting for their chance.
That said, I’m very pleased that its popularity is lower than I expected. Back in 2010, during the ground zero mosque fiasco, We were 70/30 against. So in six years 14% fewer of us are reflexively bugged out by nonsense. It’s still obviously a wedge issue for Dems, but in a few years we may be one fifth less freaked out by Iranians matriculating in college, or Yemenis trying to fly to Orlando to take their kids to Disney World.
@Peale: actually I was basing that on a poll that I thought I saw where 56% supported it. Only 48% Wow. We’re almost calm!
I referee soccer with quite a few crewmates of obviously Middle Eastern ethnic origin (and in fact, Islamic in religion) – I am a bit concerned as the spring season goes along whether we will encounter any incidents of spectators making ugly Islamophobe-tinged comments about these referees, either in the competitive club soccer or the high school soccer contexts. In school contexts, the coaches and A.D.s are firmly expected to readily assist the ref crew in cracking down on such, and expelling miscreant spectators who go racial or ethnic with their comments – but in the USSF context, we’re often alone on site, just the three ref crew members, the teams, and a few parent-spectators (or almost none if it is an adult game). Supposedly the leagues and the USSF will back us up, but so to speak, the sheriff’s miles away at the moment we’ve got to take action against it at the field – and we’re relying on those present to be concerned about getting suspended or kicked out of the league, which is more often than not, but not always true.
OT, in the ongoing case of Citizen Thiel, the New Zealand government finally dumped the documents from their file on Peter Thiel’s citizenship case (he quietly became a Kiwi in 2011): Revealed: How Peter Thiel got New Zealand citizenship
Reading through all the BS presented there – both by those supporting Thiel in his original application, and those who think it’s fine now – the tl;dr version appears to be: really rich guy wants something, and threw some of his money at things we like, so let’s make an exception for him.
Initial public response there seems to be skeptical and generally unfavorable, although their objections are expressed in a subdued and understated manner that leads me to believe that Kiwis are not a dramatic and ostentatious people.
Some tweets from Matt Nippert, the reporter who broke the story:
I enjoy that last tweet; Thiel was so looking forward to proclaiming his Kiwi citizenship to any and all, that everyone involved slithered around under cover to make it happen, then didn’t talk about it after citizenship was granted. It took a reporter to expose the happy, pride-inducing event 5+ years after it happened.
@Peale: I’ve been thinking some in-your-face Democrat should submit legislation striking the words “home of the brave, land of the free” from the national anthem for the duration of the Muslim ban.
@Peale: A friend of mine is ethnically half persian but a natural born american and the other day at work (Google) one of her coworkers said she should be investigated for terrorism.
@EBT: and you’re killing my optimism.
No should about it, that MUST be reported to the direct supervisor(s) and to Human Resources department.
When I saw the poll reported, my first thought was that most Republican priorities are way less popular than that, but they’re successful with them because supporters have a lot more intensity.
Gee, I wonder which side of this issue has the supporters who care more intensely?
The bigoted will be always with us. The thing is to keep pushing back against it at every level and keep pushing. And stay organized, and celebrate our wins.
@dm: one of the positive things about our current status of being almost completely powerless, is that we can only punch up at this point. Trump signed something, bad things happened and we don’t have to find some low level schmuck to get angry with. Except for those liberals who still seem somehow convinced that Democrats are to blame for this situation, for the most part, our anger is focused.
I think Pfeiffer’s tweet gets it right:
What matters is not how many people say “approve” on the poll, but how many people are motivated to protest, march, telephone, donate, organize, and vote.
The Tea Party was also a minority phenomenon, despite their significant bankroll from the Kochs and despite the “liberal” media’s best efforts to make them a thing. The fact that they were a small minority did not matter: they were committed, they made a lot of noise, and they put the fear into their Representatives.
We’ve already got Trump flinching and hearing footsteps–he wanted to take another victory lap at the Harley factory, and instead he ran away. We need to keep this pressure up.
And every one of you in an R district: call your Reps and give them a choice: Do they *condemn* Trump’s latest outrage, or do they *condone* it? Have they spoken out publicly against [the muslim ban, the anti-semitic Holocaust statement, the destruction of Obamacare etc.] or are they in agreement with Trump?
Make them publicly repudiate Trump, or make them own him. Republicans in the House and Senate are already sick of him and sick of the messes he causes: drive a wedge between them, or force them to go down together.
@oldster: Call your Dem reps too. Either thank them for fighting or make sure they know that you go to the county party meetings on the 3rd Thursday of the month and you’re going to start talking primary.
I’d love to see John and his frat boys show up in Manchin’s office and tell him to grow a pair. Manchin has probably never met a firebreathing liberal in WV. Let him know they exist.
only comparison I can think of is the fallout from the 1850 fugitive slave law.
Reposting from a previous thread:
I have an autistic son who is 36 years old. We all went to see Hidden Figures last night and I’m having to explain cultural shifts over time. Why there were colored fountains and bathrooms and why the math whiz had to run a half mile to find a colored bathroom when she needed to pee.
Teaching him about this and the marches brings back how hard it is for him to assimilate social norms.
He was nonverbal until he was 4 years old. He was in speech therapy just trying to learn to make the sounds. And it was one step forward and two steps back, if we were lucky. Some of the time, the “normal” therapies didn’t work with him. Then it was come up with something that worked even if it had never been tried.
There were days and weeks of going over the same thing again and again, just trying to get something through that would stick. It was a long patient slog just to get him to something approaching normal. There were days I cried and felt like a failure. There were days I cried and felt like he was a failure. I have been through all the stages of grief so many times and sometimes all at the same time.
My point is that anything worthwhile is worth the fight. Yes there are setbacks. New trails to blaze because the old ones are overgrown. Feeling overwhelmed and frustrated because nothing seems to work. But-guess what!- sometimes it works. Sometimes it comes together and you win against the disability. He gets better and you know it was worth the fight.
Same with politics. Not every day is going to be a win. Not every day is going to be a failure. It is what it is. Take what you have and do the best you can with it. One step forward and two steps back. Whether you realize it or not, you may be dancing. The only ones who can stop us is us. We can do this dance. We have had a win this weekend after the inauguration. Now we organize, plan our next moves and dance. And as the late great Molly Ivins used to say, “Lawd, remember to have some fun.”
Don’t give up hope. To paraphrase my President; “YES WE CAN! AND YES WE WILL!”
@SWMBO: Thank you for this. This was a bad day for me, and it helps.
@oldster: I agree. My district is about 20% asian, 30% latino, and 10% middle eastern/eastern European immigrant. Lots and lots and lots of refugees no more than 1 generation removed. Our rep is trying to shift the discussion to Obamacare (bad state to make that argument) but we’re letting her know we have plenty of time to get to that – let’s stay focused on this immigration/refugee issue for now.
@SWMBO: Thank you for the beautiful comment, SWMBO. We can, we can, we can….and we must.
@Peale: Your optimism is noted. But its going to get worse. We haven’t reached the “officially branded as enemies of the State” yet, after all.
@TenguPhule: And if we keep fighting, we never will.
My japanese teacher and longtime friend is japanese by birth and now a full naturalized citizen. She studied in Iran, got married there and had a daughter. She is now married to a US citizen and throughout our friendship I have been with her every step of the way as she both worked on her own citizenship and fought the legal battle across country divides to have her and her husband gain full custody of her daughter. It was of course long and complicated. We cried together the day the papers finally came through and her family was made whole. This couldn’t be possible today thanks to Bannons heartless xenophobic EO and that is a tragedy beyond imagination.
Inconvenience my ass, fuckers.
@Mike J: Where is the meeting for King County? I assume it’s in Seattle.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
Richard Burr was whining yesterday that he, his wife, and his son were being flooded by calls and called it a “Democratic strategy”. I’ve also seen reports that he’s called the Devos opposition a “conspiracy”. I expect that will be the talking points going forward. They know that’s what the Tea Party was and is, so it must be what’s happening here.
Thom Tillis, surprisingly, is not hiding from people behind locked doors.
@? Martin: Are you in Matsui’s district?
@SWMBO: Thank you for this!
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
Been playing this song a lot lately: Hero
Great big oaf Chris Christie was on the telly whining about how Trump hadn’t been “well-served” during all this. Meaning mostly that C.C. is hoping for a gig after the first staff purge, but still, didn’t Trump assure us he would hire “the best people, the best”?
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism:
The new buttons are supposed to work as page up, page down and top of thread. The old back button should be working as usual; it is for me. (Mobile site, Android, Chrome.)
What platform are you using?
@Darkrose: Mimi Walters – R. Wish Matsui was my rep.
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism:
Nice. This song has been on my mind too much of late
I found Wilmer!
The problem with that, of course, is that it requires a certain level of competence to be able to recognize who the best people are – and Trump is nowhere NEAR that level.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
Christie is right – despite being an oaf and an all around bellowing asshole, he understands the principle of the fig leaf used to cover up what you’re really doing.
The Bushies understood that, and because they aren’t awful people as individuals, it was easy to get sucked in by platitudes of “they mean well”.
Had this order been undertaken as a delay in processing on new refugees, they’d likely not have seen the type of backlash they got – they wouldn’t have even had to engage in much fig-leafing. Likewise, had they brought in Kelly and the DHS legal team on implementation of the whole order, expressed how there were simply going to be queries to incoming visa holders and possibly some short delays, with apologies in advance for the inconvenience, it wouldn’t have been a problem.
Instead, they issue their public statements in the most assholish way possible, and left implementation up the the sort of barrel bellied shouting cretins at CBP who start barking at deplaning passengers right off the jetway after long international flights (happens nearly EVERY time anymore – welcome to ‘Murka). Those would be the sort that would handcuff a 5 year old – they have no judgment or perspective). And don’t even get me started on TSA morons. If I’m alone, I call them out on it – when I’m with my wife, my teeth nearly sever my tongue.
Good conservative staff would have recognized the optics and charted a different implementation and messaging strategy, and had Kelly put the fear of God into CBP on the implementation and treatment – with no 407s.
I will say this, had I been present to see the 5 year old handcuffed, I’d still be sitting in a jail cell and ripping taser barbs from my skin. Conservatives like to talk WOLVERINES!!!? They’d see one in action on that – I’d take a beating, sure, but I’d deliver one, too.
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: It shows that none of these people have run an organization of this size before, and that’s not even considering the politics.
@CarolDuhart2: Assumes rationality and goodwill not in evidence. Prepare for the worst, hope for the best. But still be ready to take out that Trump-lover on your block. They’ve been primed by Dear Leader to think that “liberals” aren’t Americans and will give no quarter or mercy to unbelievers.
There are few on my block, and from what I have seen so far, a lot of his “support” is armchair support. They may hate liberals, but more than voting for Republicans, they don’t seem to want to do more. With all of the protests, those “no quarter people” haven’t shown their face.
The support for Dear Leader is shallow. He wouldn’t have made it if it weren’t for the preachers telling various congregations that voting for Trump was a way to finally end abortion, dislike of Hillary, and promises of bringing coal jobs back to coal country. Well, Hillary is no longer running, he can’t really end abortion, and coal is on its death spiral regardless of what he does.
There are few that love him for him, and just him.
I’ve had a few disputes with Trump-leaning people since the election (even before the election), and I have to say I have not heard them say ONE WORD in defense of Trump. It’s all been e-mails and Benghazi and food stamps. Not ONE WORD of anything positive to say about him.
Are there any? Why is his White House leaking so badly so soon?
@joel hanes: there wasnt anything like this reaction against kent state.
@SWMBO: I am in the middle of a frustrating stage with my 19 yo autie. Thank you for reminding me that it is indeed realistic to keep working and hoping.
Before Election Day, I was thinking of suggesting an autism thread, there seems to be a good number of us family members here. Because in the calm of waiting for Hillary to be sworn in, they’d be lots of time for miscellaneous threads. Hah!
Enhanced Voting Techniques
That’s been my experience too. I’ve even seen them do the typical Wingnut mental loop of calling Trump a Twat and then hunting for some justification to keep supporting him.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
and go read Team of Rivals – before the 1850 law Abolitionists were considered lynchable hippies, since they were mostly Quakers who wouldn’t fight back and the entire nation was run on High Broderism (sure the South has slaves, but the North has Irish, so both sides do it) Afterwards the Republican party was formed with anti-slavery as the one unifying thing for a bunch of otherwise opposing groups.
Tenar Arha (same Tenar, more Nameless Ones)
@efgoldman: I actually used that comparison to a cousin the other day. But it was more on the order of trying to explain why Marty Walsh was in a tradition of Bostonians responding forcefully to her residents being removed south by federal marshals. (I must have been thinking about Anthony Burns’ case).
We’ve really learned that when Trump says things like “we don’t know what’s going on” or “until we can figure out what’s going on” – he’s really talking about himself. He’s the one who doesn’t know what’s going on.
The polls reflect the overly simplistic thinking that is a hallmark of this ban. People do not yet understand the actual consequences of this policy, which goes far beyond impacting brown people from places we don’t like. For instance, white smart people from places we DO like are now boycotting scientific and medical research collaborations with the US because of this policy. We will be pariahs in the scientific and academic communities that stimulate innovation and drive important economic initiatives. It is an ‘unintended’ (but wholly predictable, had anyone with a tiny bit of international experience been involved in implementing this fiasco) consequence of not having your shit together–indeed not even knowing what your shit is. As more and more of these unintended consequences pile up, the polls may look very different. Who knows, though? Dumb, mean and inexplicably entitled seem to be the qualities most prized by those in power right now.
I believe the poll was taken (1/5 – 1/9) well before the actual Executive Order (and backlash) occurred. I’d be curious by what such a poll would show now.
Demagoguery is popular? Who knew?