After Biden news, Perez has as much as a 66-member lead among the 447 DNC members. 304 have committed so far. https://t.co/njR6iCEcwL
— Lisa Lerer (@llerer) February 1, 2017
Former Vice President Joe Biden is backing Tom Perez to head the Democratic National Committee, calling the former Obama administration labor secretary the “best bet to help bring the party back.”
Biden’s endorsement — a sign of Perez’s strong support among former Obama administration officials — drew a sharp response from Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders, escalating the relatively sleepy party chairman battle into a fight between the liberal wing that supported Sanders’ insurgent primary bid and backers of Hillary Clinton….
Biden cast Perez, a Dominican-American civil rights lawyer who grew up in the Rust Belt, as a tireless champion of working Americans, immigrants and the disabled.
“He knows how to explain why our party’s core beliefs matter to the immigrant family in Arizona and the coal miner in West Virginia. That matters,” Biden said in a statement. “I’ve watched him work. I think I know his heart. That’s why I endorse him as the next chairman of the DNC.”
Perez, who was quietly urged by the White House to jump into the race, faces his stiffest competition from Ellison…
Along with Perez and Ellison, South Bend, Indiana, Mayor Pete Buttigieg, South Carolina Democratic Chairman Jaime Harrison, New Hampshire Democratic Chairman Raymond Buckley, Democratic strategist Jehmu Greene and the executive director of the Idaho Democratic Party, Sally Boynton Brown, are in the race…
When the BernieBros first glommed on to Rep. Ellison as the sock puppet for their one true lord & savior, I was willing to let Ellison have it, even if it meant running another no-doubt-expensive campaign to hold his “safe” seat. Partly because Ellison’s been a staunch Democrat, and partly because there were all these rumors that President Obama would be transitioning his OfA platform into a voting-rights / voting-registration powerhouse that would pretty much replace most of what the DNC is supposed to do anyways.
But I’ve liked Tom Perez more and more, as the campaign went on. And now that Bernie Sanders has signed up for a CNN “debate on Obamacare” with Ted Cruz (predicted conclusion: It’s all that Obama guy’s fault, also every single Democrat and their entire party suxxs)… fuck that greedy little egotist and all his deluded diehard followers with the farm implement of your choice.
Sanders wants to represent the Democrats, let him join the Democratic Party, and stop hotdogging around as The Only Remaining Pure Spirit, Make Checks Out to Cash. And for the Democratic National Committee: TEAM PEREZ.
.
trollhattan
Like Perez a lot and while am unaware of his kitty-herding skills I’m impressed with his personality and labor knowledge.
Go away now, Bernie, kick some Trump ass if you feel the need.
kindness
You don’t see it here so much but I’m saddened that so many BernieBros still relish fighting other Democrats. Seems to me they get more kick out of that than they do fighting Republicans. How does that work anyhow?
rikyrah
Team Perez all the way ???
Shinobi
I think one of the things that is making this the hardest is the fact that the Democrats have NO leadership right now. We are all scrambling to get our Senators to obey, which is absurd. There is no united front, there is no voice for us. The only voices we are hearing with any regularity right now is the beyond frantic media. We’ve got people freaking out about fascism and how all of our rights are going to get taken away.
And I’m not sure those fears are unrealistic, but they SOUND crazy.
There are legitimate concerns about this administration, but there is no one prepared to plan for and prevent major issues. There are just masses of panicked people freaking out on social media.
I want to do something about that but I don’t even know where to start.
Brachiator
Yep.
Baud
I like all the people running. Perfectly happy if it’s Perez.
Elizabelle
Yeah, i like Perez.
Fuck the Bernie Bros. let those assholes form their own party. We’ve seen how cuddly and persuasive they are.
Yarrow
I like Tom Perez. I also like South Bend, Indiana, Mayor Pete Buttigieg. If he doesn’t win then I hope the party finds a good place for him.
Baud
@Brachiator: I agree.
Felanius Kootea
I’d be fine with either Perez or Ellison.
Fascinating article in the Atlantic on how to frame “liberal” concerns about the refugee and Muslim ban
in a way that appeals to conservatives:
cgordon
Instead of simply badmouthing Bernie and Ellison, why don’t you give a few reasons for your preference? Goes for commenters too.
Major Major Major Major
What was the “sharp response” from mister not-actually-a-Democrat?
Shana
While I like Ellison, I heard him on TV recently and he had a hard time putting a sentence together. We need someone who can reliably get our message out. Not sure Ellison is that person right now.
David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch
I think Ellison is a good guy, but he already has a full time job.
p.a.
At the townhall Whitehouse was noncommittal but said he liked Perez; P is a Brown grad so there was a RI connection.
Carol
Josh Marshall interviewed Ellison and Perez on his pod cast. Although the podcast is usually reserved for TPM Prime members, Josh opened these two interviews to all. There is no question in my mind after listening to the interviews that Perez is the right choice. If you have doubts, or think you favor Ellison, please listen before you decide.
Major Major Major Major
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch: he said he’d resign if chosen.
martian
I have liked what I’ve seen of Buttigieg, but maybe it’s too soon for him to get traction, this being the kind of gig that goes to people who know people.
From what I’ve heard of Perez’ experience protecting the vote, he could fill a critical need right now.
debbie
Well, if Michelle won’t take the job, I’m all for Perez.
Schlemazel
Why would any Democrat care what BS thinks about our party chair? He is not now, and has never been, a Democrat. When he ran for POTUS he put the ‘D’ after his name as a matter of convenience. We don’t need his bullshit, we need Democrats. Kieth is my Congressman & I would hate to see him go but we can hold his seat and he would be a great chair. The only negative on him is ‘ol BS
Will
Is this helpful for unity?
spuf
I mean, I’m fine with this, but in what way is Ellison’s seat not safe? Or did I misunderstand?
schrodingers_cat
@Felanius Kootea: I would also make an economic argument of how trade and immigration benefit the average person and the economy. How disrupting the flow of goods and people is bad economics too.
schrodingers_cat
Thread count will be 500.
aimai
@Felanius Kootea: God I hate this framing crap. Of COURSE its good to talk about lots of different issues and ways of seeing something. But people are doing that and it does zero good. because the other frame ==the “but Imma skeeered of everything!” holds and goes beyond that.
Major Major Major Major
@Will: I didn’t realize this was Democratic Unity-Juice.
@aimai: yeah, the dignity-of-immigration argument is something Dems have been saying for…ever.
BGinCHI
@schrodingers_cat: Like a fine set of sheets.
Bonnie
I have seen Tom Perez on TV on lot lately; and, have come to like him a lot. He looks like he could handle president*.
gwangung
@cgordon:
Both have good things going for them.
I slightly prefer Perez because I think he’s organized on a larger scale on Ellison and he’s worked on voting rights. He has some weaknesses in that he’s seen as being soft on corporate money, but the reality is that in a Citizens United world, you need that money to get anywhere close to parity–go without it, and liberals and progressives will get stomped into the ground at every level.
There are a lot of issues that need to be hit, but my focus is on getting out the vote—without that, you’re just not winning elections. And Politics 101 is to win elections.
FlipYrWhig
Glad to hear it. I loves me some Perez.
Byrookorbycrook
Ellison and Perez would both be fine. Stop trying to turn this into Primaries Part Deux. I prefer Perez because of his experience running a large bureaucracy. Buttigieg says all the right things, but I don’t know much about him.
I am no Sanders fan, but he did put a D after his name to run for nominee. It’s not like he is pushing for Stein. Ellison is a known quantity.
FlipYrWhig
@gwangung: I hate how the people who prefer Ellison to Perez have gone about it. All smears and late-breaking litmus tests and bullshit.
trollhattan
@Bonnie:
He was my top choice for VP before Kaine was picked. I don’t think for a minute that made a difference in the outcome but I just like hearing the guy speck, both 1:1 and on the stump.
martian
@schrodingers_cat: Yeah, this post is like sending up the flare for a flame war.
I wish we could discuss the DNC chair without relitigating the primaries, even though I believe that Bernie is himself, in fact, continuing to relitigate the primaries.
Mnemosyne
@cgordon:
Perez has also been consistent in saying that protecting the vote and making sure all citizens are allowed to vote is his number one priority. If Democratic voters are blocked from the polls as happened this year, we’re pretty much fucked.
Sanders decided to turn this into a proxy war by declaring Ellison to be his preferred candidate, so don’t act shocked when people push back against him specifically.
EBT
@cgordon: Bernie is an ego driven fuckstick? Ellison should stay in congress where he can continue to matter, and let his star rise instead of fucking off to the DNC to wither and die.
Will
@Major Major Major Major:
I didn’t say it was. It was simply a question that perhaps we ought to think about in this context.
Is that sort of comment helpful for unity? Also, is unity something that we should strive for in choosing the next DNC chair? I know there’s a lot of “f-u” attitude in this site, which I appreciate most of the time. However, maybe we should think about whether it accomplishes our goals in this context.
I think it’s important that we as Democrats do our best to unify because we are more likely to win with more people in the tent than out. You may have another perspective which is fine. However, by Anne’s own account she thinks Ellison is a staunch D and a generally acceptable choice. Why take a swipe at people who might prefer him? Does it help us achieve our goals?
Hal
So how safe is Ellison’s seat if he’s chosen?
StringOnAStick
I think Perez has better connections to PBO, and I think that is going to count once he returns from vacation to whatever role he chooses. My main concern about Ellison is the Louis Farrakan stuff will be pinned to him over and over again by the media, and they will also use his religion to freak out the low info voters even more; this shouldn’t matter in an ideal world but we are far, far from that now.
Patricia Kayden
@Baud: Me too. Perez or Ellison are fine with me. Anyone will be better than Schultz.
Cacti
Short version of why I prefer Perez:
1. He actually has experience running a large, national organization
2. He doesn’t have any years-long, questionable former associations with someone like Louis Farrakhan
3. Fuck Bernie Sanders in the ear
Mnemosyne
@martian:
I still think that the primary war was in part a proxy war against Obama (aka “the establishment”), which is fucking INSANE to continue given who had nationwide electoral success and who didn’t.
dm
@David ?Canadian Anchor Baby? Koch: He said he’d drop his (safe Democrat) Congressional seat if he got chosen to be DNC chair.
I’m guessing the “sharp response from Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders” is a creation of a writer still operating in a Democrats-in-disarray frame.
I’ve heard Ellison and Perez interviewed (and have liked what little I’ve read about Buttigieg). I thought Perez was the better speaker, but Ellison’s story about how he organized his Congressional campaigns makes me think he’s poised to take advantage of the new enthusiasm for political organizing. Otherwise, as far as I can tell, Ellison and Perez are close to indistinguishable in what they say they’d do to revitalize the party, though maybe Ellison has a smidgen more of an organize-the-local-party focus (beyond grassroots to grass seedlings).
So, Anne, please stop acting like the cartoon Bernie-bros you hate. That fight will be over when you let go of it — there’s an old proverb, “The jackal barks, but the caravan moves on” — just look at those Bernie-bros as jackals, and get on the caravan.
As far as caravans go, I get almost-daily mail from Bernie’s organization about local campaigns that are going on in various parts of the country, things to do (heavy on the petitions and phone calls to Congress). (I think this is why Major-major-major-major’s daugher(?) thinks Bernie is “leading the fight” or however he characterized it the other day — it’s because they really are continuing to organize.)
I get about the same amount of stuff from OfA and Dean’s old organization, DfA. I think I should be on Hillary’s mailing list, but I haven’t heard from it. I don’t blame her for walking away from politics for a while, and maybe her staff have moved over to OfA.
gwangung
@Hal: I heard fairly safe; solidly D for a good time.
I’m uncertain as to administrative ability being able to scale up, but I’d be interested to hearing differently.
Brachiator
@Felanius Kootea:
Everything about this makes my teeth hurt, including the bullshit that only liberals understand or make a priority of “reciprocity and caring.”
Peale
I don’t have much skin in this game either way. I just wish we’d get the damn vote over with. I guess what’s odd about this process is that usually the election is held while someone is still the Chair. But it feels like we just want to have these long campaigns for some reason.
Major Major Major Major
@Hal: very, is my understanding, but they’ll still try.
@Will: everybody has for the most part been fine with Ellison since day 0, but the Berniecrats have turned supporting him into a revolutionary act at least out here in SF and that means he suddenly comes with a lot of baggage. Personally I would prefer Perez because of his organizational experience.
Major Major Major Major
@dm: that doesn’t sound like me, given that I’m 31 and childless.
Another Scott
Go Perez.
But the DNC chair really doesn’t matter that much. The DNC runs the convention and supports candidates once they’ve already been picked by the state and local parties. They don’t choose candidates for office.
Remember that great job that Tim Kaine did as DNC chair in 2010? You mean you don’t? ;-p
We need stronger state parties, and we need stronger Congressional and Senate organizations. The DCCC and DSCC has a lot more pull on races than the DNC…
All that said, if Bernie makes this all about him and tries to wreck things even more, well… :-/
My $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
zhena gogolia
@schrodingers_cat:
Yes, sigh.
Baud
@Major Major Major Major: The only part of the Women’s March I didn’t like was when Moore tried to shill for Ellison. Wrong place dude.
zhena gogolia
@aimai:
Yeah, f–k that s–t. Sorry, my language has deteriorated since Jan. 20.
zhena gogolia
@BGinCHI:
z-z-z-z-z-z
Cacti
@FlipYrWhig:
So, typical Bernie bot stuff?
guachi
I’d be happy with Perez. I think the #1 priority is to get candidates everywhere as soon as possible and a consistent message out. Something like “check on the Reckless Republicans”. The Senate is, unfortunately, not up for grabs in 2018. If it were the 2016 map the Democrats would pick up 10 seats. But the House must be taken at basically all costs.
gwangung
@Another Scott:
And this over all.
I’ve seen Facebook postings from neophyte candidates saying how the Democratic outreach and support for candidates is pretty anemic compared to Republicans.
Mnemosyne
@Will:
I agree that all Democrats should unite behind whoever is chosen, but you’re preaching to the wrong crowd. The Berniebros are the one taking a my way or the highway approach and refusing to unify.
Giving in to the person or people who are throwing a tantrum and threatening to walk unless they get their way is pretty much the opposite of unifying.
Suzanne
I like both Ellison and Perez. When I went to the DNC Future Forum, I thought Perez came off a bit like an old crank college professor. Ellison was better spoken at that event. I think both of them would be good, and either would be better than DWS.
I honestly liked all of the candidates and I think that if we are smart, we are helping advance their careers. Brown was the only one who would agree to sign the pledge not to take corporate money.
humboldtblue
@cgordon:
Bernie Sanders isn’t a Democrat is a good place to start. So fuck him and fuck his supporters when it comes to Democratic party stuff .
As for the kumbaya-we-need-to-learn-how-to-talk-to-the-salt-of-the-earth-bull-dyke-hornswaggling-bank-robbing-shit-kickers, yeah, that’s not gonna fucking work. They hate you more than you could ever hate them.
I don’t need to sway some right wing country-fried cow fucker from the local pasture to vote democrat, I need to convince the latte-sipping-university-going-arts-and-crafts-loving-tittilated-by-Stein-and-Sanders-curious-eco-friendly-votes-for-every-other-fucking-liberal-cause (BREATH) … asshole to go the polls.
Fair Economist
I don’t much care. I think either one will be fine, and given the current political situation I’d support the winner if he weren’t.
? Martin
News coming out now is that the State Department is revoking all visas for individuals coming from the 7 nations. Not a 90 day delay – they will presumably have to all reapply. Lots of scrambling for clarification as this is a much bigger deal in many ways.
It also suggests that if you are currently in the US on a valid visa (H1B work visa, for example) then as of today you are undocumented and eligible for deportation. Again, nobody is quite sure, because everything at the federal level is an utter clusterfuck right now.
Miss Bianca
@EBT: I agree (tho’ for some reason this response is making me think of “Hollywood Squares”, which should carbon-date me pretty effectively). Ellison already has a job that, by all accounts i’ve heard from his constituents who’ve weighed in here, he’s pretty good at. I’d like to see a reliably blue Democrat stay in the damn Congress. And I really like Perez’s focus on voting access. That’s a BF-Biden-D, in my book.
Mike J
Major Major Major Major
@Suzanne:
So other than Brown, nobody else is obviously a terrible choice.
martian
@StringOnAStick: I think pandering to what we think won’t scare low info voters is a mistake. They’ll happily eat any shit sandwich handed to them by a Republican regardless of background, history, or character – it’s just not about that. If Ellison were a Republican, he’d be fine. But, hey, I remember when it was thought that running an actual war hero as a Dem candidate would surely prove that Democrats weren’t soft on national security and the military. We can’t shape the party defensively.
Mandalay
@Another Scott:
Priceless.
It wasn’t for the lack of trying, until they got skewered by wikileaks.
Mnemosyne
@Peale:
We’re also having a long campaign because the Berniebros demanded Debbie Wasserman-Schultz’s head and are now kicking up a fuss and insisting that Donna Brazile (the interim head) also get thrown out in the middle of selecting a new DNC head.
And then people wonder why it’s so easy for me to ignore the bogus calls for “unity” that are really calls for giving in and only doing what the Berniebros want.
Felonius Monk
It seems no one cared for the Vince Tolliver brand:
(Source)
Ruviana
@schrodingers_cat: They make the best sheets!
ETA: Or what BGinCHI said.
Cacti
@Mnemosyne:
It feels a lot like the Republican definition of bipartisanship.
dm
@Major Major Major Major: I forget who mentioned it. For some reason I thought it was you. At the time I thought the Bernie Derangement kvetching had gone on enough, and didn’t feel like poking it.
EBT
@Miss Bianca: Ellison could be president some day. DNC chair is where you go when you have no place else and can’t hold your seat.
Mnemosyne
@Mandalay:
Yeah, Wikileaks sure did the whole world a service by selecting Trump to be our president. I can see why you’re so proud of their actions in revealing that the DNC supported Hillary after Bernie was mathematically eliminated by actual votes and reduced to pleading for the superdelegates to flip to him.
les
@Will:
This is true; but I haven’t seen a shred of “unify” from the Bernie wing–he’s still whining about how “the Dems”–not we Dems, of course–can’t reach the WWC. Fuck ’em. We need to (i) make sure everyone who want to vote can vote, and (ii) motivate some of the half of voters to want to. We’re not winning trying to reach people who wouldn’t vote for the Dem this time.
EBT
deadbeat donnie threatens to invade Mexico
https://twitter.com/BraddJaffy/status/826937513646444549/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
Timurid
@? Martin:
Major Major Major Major
@dm: I’ve noticed at my local party events that the Berniecrats are the only ones both relitigating the primary and complaining about people relitigating the primary, if that’s the sort of observation you’re talking about. But they’ve joined up and are coming to local meetings which is great! It’s the right forum for this sort of disagreement, if you’re going to have it at all.
stinger
@Will: Unity? Did the Berniebros ultimately march in lockstep to proudly vote for the Democratic nominee? Go tickle your own sweet-smelling underarms with that “unity” crap.
schrodingers_cat
@? Martin: Link? Not seeing it in Twitterfeeds of immigration experts I follow.
SiubhanDuinne
@Mnemosyne:
Indeed. I think we all remember what “P.U.M.A.” stands for, don’t we?
Peale
I’m pretty bothered though that the primary itself isn’t going to end. Ever. The fact that Perez isn’t going to be accepted based on who was backing him or Ellison isn’t going to be accepted based on who was backing him is fucking brilliant. If I’m choosing, just pick god damned Ellison, since the Democrats who are supporting him might not support anyone they don’t want.
Major Major Major Major
@Peale: that’s basically how I feel. It’s a shame they’ll see it as vindication but whatever, it’s not like he’s a bad choice.
Will
@stinger: That’s helpful. I appreciate that, thank you.
SiubhanDuinne
@Miss Bianca:
Paul Lynde for DNC Chair! Charley Weaver for his deputy!
EBT
The only terrorism that matters comes from the middle east White Supremacists are off the hook officially.
https://twitter.com/apblake/status/826937158007193600/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
Lizzy L
@? Martin: I’m not seeing this. Can you supply your source?
bluehill
@Shinobi:
I hear you. I don’t think anyone was realistically expecting Trump to win and to lose the senate so dems are regrouping. Unfortunately, I think it’s going to take some time figure out why (Russians, emails, Comey Bernie, Stein, media, Hillary) and it will take time to figure out who’s going to lead. Look at the discussion for DNC chair. Would not be surprised to hear similar conversations among whoever votes for these things.
At the same time Bannon is pressing his advantage which just adds to the confusion. I was worried there would be even EOs and legislation but what he has done is bad enough.
This situation reminds me of a TPM post trying to explain Trump’s success early in the repub primary.
Specify about OODA loop
Peale
@? Martin: And Bloomberg reported that Trump threatened Nieto to invade Northern Mexico.
So as of today, he believes that he can invade Mexico, deport refugees into a war zone, start a war with Iran. And its only day 10.
? Martin
@schrodingers_cat: Link for State Dept story on visas.
This is ProPublica, who is about as rock solid on reporting as you can find.
martian
@Mnemosyne: “I still think that the primary war was in part a proxy war against Obama (aka “the establishment”), which is fucking INSANE to continue given who had nationwide electoral success and who didn’t.”
Yeah, agreed. I tend to think that Bernie is playing his own, private game of Fuck, Marry, or Kill with the Democratic Party and can just never make up his mind. Mostly, he fucked and talked about killing, but the primary gave him the idea he had a chance at marry. I’m concerned he’ll flip back to kill if Ellison doesn’t get the DNC job and preside over the nuptials.
Yarrow
@Mnemosyne: Speaking of Wikileaks, they released a bunch of stuff on French Presidential Candidate François Fillon today. Oddly they’ve released nothing on Le Pen. Go figure.
dm
@Another Scott:
I know Ellison talked about this when I heard him interviewed: he’d like to see the DNC helping state parties. His constituents can comment on this, but I gather he had something of a continual campaign strategy — knocking on people’s doors to find out what was bothering them even when there wasn’t an election.
I think Perez also mentioned that. I’m okay with either of them.
Lessee, I think Ezra Klein interviewed the two of them on his podcast. (If you go there, I recommend the two interviews with Heather McGhee — ignore the headline on the one from June). Looking now, I see Perez was interviewed when he was in the running for VP.
Ah, here it is: Perez and Ellison interviewed back to back on Josh Marshall’s podcast.
? Martin
@Peale: Don’t exaggerate. It’s day 13.
Mnemosyne
@Peale:
@Major Major Major Major:
I am opposed to blackmail, and this whole Ellison vs Perez thing feels like the same fucking blackmail all over again.
Giving in to the toddler’s tantrum not only doesn’t work, it makes things worse going forward. I would probably lean Perez no matter what because I’ve been impressed with him since he became Secretary of Labor, but adding in the Berniebro whining just makes me more firmly Team Perez.
patroclus
I really like Ellison a lot. But if Bernie is for him, then I’m not. No offense to Congressman Ellison, but we don’t need that kind of leadership.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Haven’t seen you in a spell. You gonna be able to get your head removed from your ass before Trump and Ryan fuck with O-Care? I hope so.
hovercraft
“drew a sharp response from Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders”
Who gives a shit, only members of the party get to have a say. As soon as he lost, he dropped his membership, so fuck him. Since Perez is ahead, it looks like the party is also telling him where to go.
Major Major Major Major
@? Martin: Trump started counting from Monday.
Mnemosyne
@Yarrow:
I know, such a puzzle … ?
stinger
@Will: Several others replied to you with specifics; I saw no reason to rehash them.
Yarrow
@Mnemosyne: A real mystery for sure.
Will
@les: There will always be loud people who don’t want to play ball. Those aren’t targets for unity any more than the worst Trumpers are targets for Democratic votes.
However there are tons of people who hated both Clinton and Trump who voted for Trump. Those are people we need to win. Also there are tons of people who were excited about Bernie who were unmotivated by Clinton rather than obnoxious about it.
I think Ellison is a great chance to bridge that gap because he represents the best of those who backed Bernie in the primaries. He is a staunch Democrat and despite backing Bernie, he switched to Hillary after it was clear she was going to be the nominee (even before Bernie dropped out). He then campaigned heartily for her in the general election. I think the message we send by voting him in is that party unity is rewarded.
There are a lot of reasons to prefer Perez and I don’t see anything damning about him as a choice. But does Perez benefit if his candidacy is being promoted as a ‘f-u’ to Bernie and all of the people who supported him? I doubt Perez thinks that is beneficial, and anyone who “supports” him by pushing that narrative is doing him a disservice.
Mnemosyne
@martian:
I’m concerned that if Ellison does get the DNC job, the blackmail continues over and over again with more and more party positions. Where does the extortion stop?
Adria McDowell (formerly LurkerExtraordinaire)
@? Martin: Shit. I know someone who’d be caught up in that. Again, Mehrdad, I am so sorry. :-(
sdhays
I like Ellison, but he’s fine where he is in the House. I’d rather see him get into the House Leadership over the long haul or run for higher office when the opportunity arises.
I have no real opinion on Tom Perez, except that I hope that he focuses on local parties the way Howard Dean did and pushes back against the Washington-centric orientation of his successors.
Kathleen
@Brachiator: I want that effing rodent procreator to stay the hell out of the Democratic Party. He won’t be happy until he destroys it.
destroying the party is more important to him than fighting Trump. He is one of The Enemy.
JordanRules
I like Perez a lot on labor and unions, voting rights and understanding the importance of organizing.
Ellison would be good I’m sure, but I think Perez will be better.
martian
@Mnemosyne: When Bernie gets the nom for 2020?
pluky
@Felonius Monk: As opposed to Catholic, Baptist, Orthodox Jewish, etc. positions on homosexuality? Has this guy even bothered to check the congressman’s voting record and/or public statements on LGBT issues? Oy. Good riddance.
Kathleen
@Another Scott: Wilmer? Nah!
Mnemosyne
@Will:
Imma stop you right there. We are NEVER going to “win” the people who voted for Trump. Never. Some of them may choose to wake up and realize that they fucked the country over with their vote, but there is NO POINT in remaking the Democratic Party over to cater to them. None.
And the precious snowflakes who just couldn’t bring themselves to vote for Hillary so they didn’t vote or voted third party are dead to me, too. They had their big chance to stand up to fascism, and they blew it. Again, if they want to admit they were wrong and ask how they can help fix the damage that they helped cause, that’s great, but I’m not going to pretend that there was something intrinsically wrong with the candidate who got 2.8 million more votes than the electoral college winner.
We are now in a goddamned meltdown of our democracy because these assholes thought their feelings about the candidates were more important than opposing a fascist takeover of our government. Fuck. Them.
Thoroughly Pizzled
They’re both good. The biggest knock on Ellison isn’t Bernie’s support for him, but rather him endorsing Bernie in the primary. But he’s done very well with his district.
patroclus
@Will: The best way of bridging that gap is to get someone who took no position on Bernie v. Clinton, say like a cabinet officer under Obama, who stayed neutral. Getting a Bernie supporter is a big FU to the majority who supported Clinton. It was clear that Clinton was going to win after Illinois in March ’16 – when did Ellison switch? Before or after the “corporate whore,” “not qualified,” Goldman Sachs, Nevada stuff?
gene108
@Felanius Kootea:
The anti-immigration conservatives I have run across do not care, if new immigrants want a shot at the American Dream, like their forefathers had.
They view immigration as a net zero sum game, where every new immigrant getting a job means one fewer job for an American.
They do not like their culture changing. They do not like foreign languages being spoken or signs in languages they cannot read.
And mostly there’s a big dose of IGMFY involved. America is mine, and I’m not sharing.
EBT
@Will: Anyone who “hated them both” but voted for deadbeat donnie is either a gullible fuck or a malicious fool.
Brachiator
@EBT:
Yeah. I just saw the Reuters news story on that. Interesting that Trump would decide that white murderers are OK fine just after the shooting in Canada.
But this claim is stupid:
This has little to do with responding to the Obama administration and everything to do with the crazy that rolls around in Trump’s own head, set in motion by Bannon and crew.
lamh36
on to more important shit…
I just heard Tamron Hall is no longer with NBC…I had heard about NBC replacing Tamron and Al Roker’s TODAY hour to make way for Megyn Kelly…
Seems Tamron decided not to renew her contract with NBC…so she’s gone…There was a blurb the other day that MSNBC wants to become the new Fox News…smh
FUQ NBC.
Then someone posted that AMJoy was out too!!!
this betta n0t be true
martian
So, with Biden leaning in on this, is Perez a foregone conclusion at this point? I mean, we can all keep debating, obviously, but this appears nearly settled.
El Caganer
@Mike J: Dude’s unleashing his inner James Polk.
Will
@Mnemosyne: Don’t put words in my mouth. I never said we need to remake the party to cater to anyone. What I am talking about is an inclusive attitude. We should try to listen, but that doesn’t mean we should do anything that is contrary to our values.
You should try to talk to some Trump supporters. Not the angry white nationalists, but the reluctant ones. They are not all monolithic and many voted for Obama. There’s probably someone in your life who fits this category. You might learn something from the experience.
Many Trump voters also voted for Democrats like Jason Kander. Is he so awful? Should we repudiate everything about him and his campaign because he tried to appeal to voters in a state that Trump was always going to win? Maybe we ought to think about what his appeal was and figure out if there’s ways we can capitalize on it to win back seats in some of these difficult places.
SatanicPanic
Who cares? Ellison or Perez, either is fine.
ETA- fighting over it is dumb
Peale
@? Martin: O.K. it looks like it only applies to those visa holders out of the country. One problem is that those visa holders could be in many different countries, not just the seven. So if you came here as an assylum seeker from Iran, say, will you need to go back to Iran and reapply? There’s no sense yet at all how many people were out of the country.
For the students, I don’t think it will be that high since most universities had actually started spring term. Those approved for the fall are out of luck.
I guess the position now is that its not a travel ban: you’re free to leave. But leaving “provisionally revokes” a visa. Which is outrageous. But then the point of this order is to reduce the number of Muslims in the country.
Yarrow
@lamh36: Noooo! Not Tamron Hall. I love her. And Joy Reid is a treasure. WTF, NBC?
Ian
@Brachiator:
His name is Keith Ellison, he happens to be a Democratic party member for many years. Quit conflating the two just because one supported the other.
socraticsilence
Buttieg is a guy to watch- his name has popped up in several jobs I had when we were doing candidate recruitment in various capacities for State and Federal positions.
Mnemosyne
@Will:
The people I know who voted for Trump fall into two camps: single-issue anti-abortion voters, and “I’m not a racist, but I hate Colin Kaepernick and Black Lives Matter” voters.
Please describe the reasons people have told you that they voted for Trump that you find to be valid reasons.
HRA
I am not sure anyone has said this above.
Tom Perez was born and raised in Buffalo, NY. He left when he went to college.
As far as I know, we are not considered the Rust Belt.
Peale
@Peale: And lets not forget that the big prize is expunging the Syrian Refugees that are already here and sending them away. So even those who aren’t out of the country are at a risk. That’s the big prize. The big win. And no, I don’t think he’s fooling and doesn’t care if he has to remove every Syrian, refugee or not, citizen or not, to get those refugees out.
Applejinx
No comment on Perez, who I don’t know, and I’ve done nothing to support Ellison.
There is only so much you can do to fight “since Citizens United, we just have to be all about corporate money as there’s no other way to do anything anymore”. I’m not even going to argue. I’m just watching to see if there will ever again be a Democratic Party I can even cope with. Seems to me the enemy is Trump, then the Republicans, then the uncontested capture of our government by big money, which is not the same as Republicans at all.
Things happen for reasons. I’m trying not to regret ever siding with Democrats, because I’ve already lost any hope that Democrats will do a goddamn thing to help us. If Job One is driving out the purity ponies and Berniecrats from the party and you really really REALLY mean it, I can’t support that and can’t pretend to believe Democrats will help anyone or anything. I would have thought fighting Trump’s fascism more important.
Time to see who wins, which will not be proof one way or another, but will be sort of evidence. Also, time to see what Democrats do to resist Trump. If they’re really good at resisting Trump, that forgives a lot of petty infighting. If they don’t bother to resist Trump because they’re too busy purging progressives and anticorporates… I don’t know, that seems not good.
Tim Lloyd
All I know is whoever killed off Howard Deans 50 state strategy should be horsewhipped fired or whatever. I think if they had paid a little more attention to these godforsaken flyover states we would not have a Creamsicle Caligula in charge right now
Will
@patroclus: It’s a novel idea to me that someone who had a preference in the primary ought to be disqualified from leading the party in the future.
Also, your point is odd because:
http://www.politico.com/story/2015/12/tom-perez-endorses-hillary-clinton-216381
mai naem mobile
I really really like Perez.
Applejinx
@martian:
No, we need new people.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Will:
I’ve yet to see any evidence of this. Show your work.
Major Major Major Major
@Applejinx:
Both Ellison and Perez support taking corporate donations.
Peale
@Applejinx: We at least we can agree on that. Which is why I want no skin in this DNC Chair fight. Both Perez and Ellison aren’t exactly new. But represent the new faces in leadership. Its stupid to use this as a surrogate for the Bernie Clinton fight. Its over. Bernie isn’t running again for president. Neither is Hillary. Neither is Joe Biden or Obama. I don’t think the transition between Kennedy to Carter to Clinton was this problematic.
schrodingers_cat
@? Martin:
This part is not obvious. If you are out of the country you cannot enter based on a previously issued visa.
Mnemosyne
@Applejinx:
Just out of curiousity, what is the rest of the Democratic Party supposed to do when the purported “progressives and anti-corporates” keep undermining the rest of the party and refuse to get behind any candidate who doesn’t meet their exact but ever-changing standards?
Again: you can take effective action to get Democrats elected in 2018 so we can flip the House and Senate to oppose Trump, or you can wank in the corner about how you wanted to oppose fascism, but the Democrats were just too impure and corrupt. Your choice.
This is no longer a game. This is not about your feelings. This is REAL FUCKING LIFE. Either you work with the only existing political party that can effectively oppose Trump, or you acquiesce to fascism. There is no third choice.
Mike in NC
Since last week we’ve heard background noise about possible military action regarding Chicago, Mexico, China, and now Iran. Wars on four fronts is a genius concept for the Trump Crime Cartel.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@lamh36: Wouldn’t surprise me if they’re that dumb, but.. Jeebus, is there no one there who remembers they tried this a little more than ten years ago? Tucker Carlson? Norah O’Donnell? I forget who else. I don’t know how Keith Olbermann got in the door, but their ratings turned around on his show. Now you have an already less popular right wing president than then, an audience that’s older and more set in their ways. They think young people are gonna be drawn to Trump TV with Brian Willaims? They think Greta VS and a prime time version of Morning Joe is gonna strip viewers away from O’Reilly and Hannity? Or the real estate and cooking channels? We’re a fairly small bunch, we political obsessives. I think the pie is already divided.
martian
@Peale: Are you old enough to remember Ted Kennedy and Carter wrestling match over the nomination? I’m not really, but I’ve heard that was brutal enough to leave Carter wounded for the general election. And then I think three Republican presidential terms in the wilderness cleared the decks for Third Way Democrats.
Will
@Mnemosyne: I would never define it as valid. The decision to elect him is horrible. The point is more, did this person put their faith in the wrong candidate or did they vote for him for reasons we just can not countenence.
I grew up in the midwest. Years ago I did organizing in rural counties in the midwest. These are counties I worked in that shifted double digits from 2012 to 2016. When I was there, people were hopeful about Obama, but their concerns of the day were things like “budget cuts at the prison might cost us jobs”…”how do we preserve access to the snowmobile trails so we can hold onto some tourist traffic?”
These are banal issues and they are not particularly partisan. This is how a lot of people think and if they feel that their lives are not improving, they are going to be open to a message of change, even a grim one. That is a double-edged sword because the same openness that drove them to Trump is an opening we can use to win those same voters back for Democrats.
That’s my experience. Voters don’t make their decisions in black and white, there are many shades of gray.
Major Major Major Major
@Mike in NC: worked for the Germans.
El Caganer
@Applejinx: The problem here is reality – we don’t have publicly financed elections. If you only want candidates who refuse to take any sort of corporate/megamillionaire cash to run their campaigns, you’re putting them at a horrible disadvantage. Once again, the world we live in isn’t necessarily the one we want.
rikyrah
Report: In a ‘humiliating’ and ‘threatening’ tone, Trump lambasted Mexico’s president during a phone call
Christopher Woody
6h 165,978
During a phone call with Mexican President Enrique Peña Nieto on Friday, US President Donald Trump disparaged Mexico and threatened to use military force against the drug trade, according to Dolia Estevez, a journalist based in Washington, DC.
In an interview with the Mexican news outlet Aristegui Noticias, Estevez, who cited sources on both sides of the call, said, “It was a very offensive conversation where Trump humiliated Peña Nieto.”
………………………………………
“I don’t need the Mexicans. I don’t need Mexico,” Trump reportedly told the Mexican president. “We are going to build the wall and you all are going to pay for it, like it or not.”
Trump hinted that the US would force Mexico to fund the wall with a 10% tax on Mexican exports “and of 35% on those exports that hurt Mexico the most,” Estevez wrote in Proyecto Puente.
Before the call, White House press secretary Sean Spicer said Trump was considering a tax on imports from Mexico to pay for the wall.
MomSense
@rikyrah:
Team Perez here, too. His background at Justice building the organization and being a champion for civil rights and voting rights are exactly the skills and attention we need.
Will
@?BillinGlendaleCA: Voting patterns in Erie County, PA ought to be sufficient to demonstrate that a large number of people switched from Obama to Trump. I’m not sure there’s a way to prove this to everyone’s satisfaction, but this is strong evidence that this is a real phenomenon.
2016: Clinton – 58,112; Trump – 60,069
2012: Obama – 68,036; Romney – 49,025
http://uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/statesub.php?year=2016&fips=42049&f=0&off=0&elect=0
http://uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/statesub.php?year=2012&fips=42049&off=0&elect=0&f=0
Applejinx
@Mnemosyne:
For the wingnut version of ‘progressives’, that is basically how Trump beat all the Republicans, and is continuing to run amok while they’re left to try and pretend it’s what they really wanted. It wasn’t ‘ever-changing standards’, it’s a ginormous desperation for new blood and swamp draining so intense that people ran with for fuck’s sake TRUMP just because he consistently lied that he would be all of that.
It’s easy to say ‘the enemy is crazy, all their opinions are purely random!’ when you don’t want to hear or legitimize what they’re saying. It’s easier to think them crazy when they’ve done something horrible like elect Trump, either directly or in a desperate last stand to force Democrats to become something they don’t want to be. It’s all desperate last stands these days…
We’re losing the status quo in the worst possible way, rather than in any acceptable way. I don’t know if anything can be salvaged. And it never seemed like a game, nor does it now.
Applejinx
@El Caganer: It appears reality can be changed in a big hurry. The question is, in what direction?
Brachiator
@Ian:
What are you talking about? Did you mis-direct your comment?
Chickamin Slam
@Mnemosyne:
People like Mnemosyne and the original poster are Reagan Republicans who, like Mr. Cole, saw the light halfway through GW’s second term when they found themselves opposite some issue the Republicans were for, (example): banning gays from serving in the military. Cole, Mnemosyne, and the poster thought … “What’s wrong with gays in the army? I just want someone to help me if we get into firefight or ambush. They have my back.” So they migrated to the other side which was rapidly trying to triangulate in finding common ground with today’s GOP. Cole’s tire rims and anthrax versus a meal of spaghetti analogy. “Let’s have a grand bargain. Let’s have a big tent.” And here we are fighting over DNC chairpersons and saying because of Bernie Hillary lost when everyone should have voted for her but didn’t as surely Putin had nothing to do with Hillary’s defeat. It was all Bernie. Bernie’s fault my wig blew away in the storm. Bernie’s fault the Patriots beat the Steelers. Whine, whine and then project your fantasies onto others since that was what you did when you were card carrying members of the GOP.
Smiling Mortician
@Will:
Sorry if I’m so late this has been done to death, but: No. We are more likely to win with VOTES. And Perez is crystal-clear about his #1 priority (shared with Barack Obama and Eric Holder) of protecting the vote. Doesn’t matter how many people are in the tent if half of the tent’s occupants’ votes are suppressed. I have no problem with Ellison, but he’s not laser-focused on the only thing that matters right now. Perez is. Also, we need Ellison in Congress.
patroclus
@Will: It’s odd to me that when I said “the best way to bridge a gap” is understood by you to mean “someone is disqualified.” When you put words in people’s mouths just a few posts after complaining about it being done to you is hypocritical. I’ll say it again – I do not and will not support any nominee for DNC chair that is favored by Bernie. Deal with it. And are you going to answer my question about when Ellison switched his support – before or after the “corporate whore” “not qualified” “Goldman Sachs” Nevada” stuff?
Mnemosyne
@Will:
Have you seen any of Kay’s posts about what she’s been seeing in Ohio? The economy is actually pretty good there right now, so the working-class people she works with thought it was safe to vote for Trump, because he was with them on social issues (i.e. he promised to put Blacks, Mexicans, gays, and Muslims back in their place).
Now they’re all walking around scared, because it dawned on them on November 10th that Trump is crazy and he’s going to drive the whole country into a ditch. Unfortunately, when they chose white supremacism over continuing with the path Obama put us on, this is what they got.
Now, I’m willing to tell those people that Trump lied to them and conned them just like he has so many other people over the years. The man is a practiced and habitual liar. But I’m not going to let them claim that Hillary would have been even worse! because that’s patently untrue.
Someone said yesterday (I think) that the most damaging thing W’s administration did was show how incompetent they are, and that’s what helped Democrats win in 2006 and 2008. Pointing out that Trump is incompetent is probably our best bet for getting those people to vote Democrat in 2018, but we can’t count on that to last. As soon as they feel even the slightest bit financially secure again, they’ll go right back to voting for the party that promises them that they’ll get to be on top socially again, too.
Mnemosyne
@Chickamin Slam:
I was wondering what MacLaren’s new nym was. How ya been, man?
And the last time I voted for a Republican was when I voted for Ford in a grade school election in 1976 when I was 7 years old. Other than that, and a really stupid Nader vote, I’ve been solid Democrat ever since.
dww44
@Baud. I agree with you, though I must confess to having a special liking for the young Mayor of South Bend that I saw on TV a few weeks back. Charisma he’s got.
Major Major Major Major
@Chickamin Slam: what the fuck blog have you been reading?
Mnemosyne
@Applejinx:
Newsflash: when Trump said “draining the swamp,” he meant “getting rid of all liberals at all levels of the government.” It was never about getting rid of corruption, only about getting rid of liberals. And his voters knew that, and are happy to tell you that was what he meant. Trump and his voters LOVE corporatism.
Their opinions are NOT random. They hate liberals and everything we stand for. They will take healthcare away from their own children because liberals got it for them.
Miss Bianca
@SiubhanDuinne: @SiubhanDuinne: have I mentioned lately that I adore you? :-)
Mnemosyne
@Major Major Major Major:
Forget it, in his world we’re 19-year-old PFCs in the basement of DoD pretending to be real people.
C.V. Danes
I’m totally agreeable to Perez, but, seriously, you guys are still going on about those supervillainous Berniebros? For Christ sake, get over it! Trump is literally bringing our democracy down around our ears and you’re still griping about the Berniebros!
martian
@Chickamin Slam: You seriously have no fucking clue about the people you’re talking about so any point you think you’re constructing is dead on arrival.
Anne Laurie
@Yarrow:
So do I, and furthermore I think Buttigieg is the sort of guy who’ll find his own place in the party regardless, and more power to him!
Emma
@Chickamin Slam: Wonderful argument…. not! I’d rather have a converted Republican than a Berniebot. At least I won’t get stabbed in the back when I least expect it.
TenguPhule
@C.V. Danes: Purity Berniebros can make themselves useful and start suicide bombing major GOP leaders.
TenguPhule
@Mnemosyne: Fairweather voters deserve a long spell of Tornadoes and other natural disasters on their heads. After all, suffering builds character and boy do they need it.
Martha
@lamh36: well then the only reason (not kidding, broke my Hayes/Maddow habit last Fall) for watching anything MS/NBC will be gone. Idiots.
dm
@Mnemosyne:
Why are you worried about those five people? They’re vocal, sure, but, really, who cares about them? Let them go.
Why not celebrate the progessives and anti-corporates who made a platform that carried Hillary Clinton to 2.8 million more votes than Trump? Why not celebrate the fact that, because she had a challenger in the primaries, she hit the general election tested and with positions more likely to appeal to more people?
@Mnemosyne: I can’t come up with any reasons I’d regard as valid. Frankly, I think Trump’s monstrous personal behavior should have disqualified him — though don’t forget that there was a caricature of Clinton that made her a scheming, power-hungry monster, too. That caricature was false, but it was not something she was able to escape.
I can’t think of reasons that are valid, but I can think of reasons that people who might be persuadable can hold — after all, a lie gets around the world before the truth has gotten its boots on. Trump is a consummate liar and con-man: I think people got conned.
Clinton was late to opposing TPP, her husband got NAFTA ratified. “Shipping our jobs overseas” is a simple motto, the rebuttal is nuanced and hard. Trump was promising to bring back coal jobs in coal country (perhaps by grinding unicorn horns), but “job training” and “bring in new industries” is a pretty anodyne response (especially since they’ve been trotted out for a generation). But it’s a persuadable response. It’s something you can build on.
Ezra Klein had an interview with JD Vance, author of The Hillbilly Elegy, who talked about how and why the people he grew up with voted for Trump. Klein writes:
Vance said this of a family that had taken in a refugee family! Again — you can reach out to those people.
Vance said similar stuff in his interview about Obamacare (paraphrasing): “Look, I have a job, but I have to pay this high deductible and these premiums, while I see my neighbor gets Medicaid for free”. Obama (and Clinton) would reply that we should fix that through better subsidies. Trump promised them a “better healthcare system”. Yes, we’ve all rolled our eyes at the people who believed him, but the fact is — those people might be persuadable if only we’d talk to them.
(To bring this back on topic, while searching for Vance on the Vox website, I came across Keith Ellison’s endorsement of The Hillbilly Elegy, though Ellison wonders why the guy is a conservative.)
Anne Laurie
@Will: Dude, I tried to be nice to the Bernie-curious, back at the start of his campaign, even though I suspected Sanders was a lazy showboater following his lifelong path of mooching off others’ hard work for his own benefit. There were a lot of perfectly nice people looking for novelty, and it’s always good to recruit more Democrats! But nothing St. Bernie or his remaining left-authoritarian cult members have done since then has changed my private opinion, and they keep slagging us Democrats for their own profit. Bernie, for one example, attacked HRC endlessly for saying we might have to compromise on a $12.50 minimum wage in some areas — he demanded $15 or nothing! — but now Trump says $10 is the absolute ceiling, and Bernie “can work with that”…. as long as saying so gets people to pay Bernie to say so!
He’s a showboating hypocrite, and the people still defending him are either deluded or leftist-authoritarians themselves. At least some of the honest low-info Trump voters are wising up, slowly; the Berniecrats will never be Democrats, or trustworthy, and trying to placate them is a waste of time, effort & money.
Ruckus
Annie,
I prefer a rusty logging instrument over a farming implement. Specifically, best would be a rusty 6 ft chainsaw. I can get by without it being rusty.
dm
@Anne Laurie: I have to admit that I’ve never heard Bernie “slagging” Democrats. I did hear him referring to “them” as “we”, last week, however (in my three minutes exposure to cable news in an airport lounge).
Look, I agree that he had some asshole supporters — just like Clinton had in 2008 (remember “P.U.M.A.”?).
Ruckus
@Anne Laurie:
This. From now till eternity, Bernie and his bros can fuck right off. He’s second only to the current Republican president in being a limelight hog. And he’s only slightly behind same as an major fucking asshole.
NR
@Mnemosyne: “If you’re not with us, you’re against us.”
You guys would fit right in at a Trump rally.
Will
@patroclus:
You said…
Emphasis mine. I pointed out that Perez supported Clinton, endorsing her in Dec 2015. You have not acknowledged this, or is there a different Obama cabinet secretary that you are supporting?
You said someone who is neutral would be best and that someone who endorsed Bernie would be a big FU to Hillary supporters. Perhaps I drew too much of an inference in assuming endorsement of a primary candidate was what you found disqualifying. Thank you for clarifying that your beef is instead that a candidate for chair endorsed a Presidential candidate that you personally didn’t like. Apparently it is OK to say FU to one group of voters but not to another.
Setting aside the fact that I didn’t support Bernie in the primaries (in fact I settled on Clinton in mid-Feb), I don’t see how Ellison can be viewed as an FU to anyone. He did, after all, campaign heartily for both candidates.
To answer the question you insist upon, I don’t remember exactly when it was he started making noises for Bernie to unify behind Clinton. I think the more important question is did Ellison personally engage in those inflammatory attacks you are citing. If he did, please cite the instances when he did so. It would certainly make me reconsider my current preference for him.
This is a good example of how I remember Ellison conducting himself during the primary. Not inflammatory, not taking a cheap shot attack:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-husseini/layers-of-islamophobia-re_b_10121808.html
Mnemosyne
@dm:
Yeah, as I said in a follow-up comment, I think our best bet for 2018 is going to be to push the “incompetence” button. Trump said he was going to do all this stuff, and he fucked it up, so vote Democrat.
We may not retain those votes in 2020, but getting Congress back in 2018 will help slow the bleeding.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@NR: you’d know, having been to them.
Or are you going to deny that like you (sometimes) deny voting for him?
Keith G
@Byrookorbycrook:
Trump could call up the National Guard, dress them in brown shirts and turn them loose in blue cities, and still there would be folks here whose main complaint would involve Sanders.
I like either Ellison or Perez. My read is that Ellison would not be out-worked as I think he has more of a chip on his shoulder. Perez will bring it as well. I think that he sees this as his shot to be near the head of the line for 2020, so he has motivation – hopefully not mixed loyalties. Perez is a another Ivy Leaguer and Ellison is not. I hate that we have become the party of the Ivies, so a point for Ellison.
Mnemosyne
@NR:
Collaborator says what?
Don’t worry, the collapse of the dollar will mean your rubles are worth more!
Will
@Mnemosyne: Lots of people vote for a lot of different reasons. I don’t deny Kay’s experience, nor yours. There are a lot of people who we can never reach.
My point is we should try, whenever we can do so without compromising our values. That goes for Berniacs as well as soft Trumpers.
Anne Laurie
@Mnemosyne:
Fixt that for you.
More and more, the “alt-left” is a lot of white men and the usual white-men-supporters, outraged that women and people of color and women who are people of color dare to act as if white men and their prerogatives are not the most important priority in all the universe. When you put them side-by-side with the “alt-right”, it’s like the scene at the end of Animal Farm where the evil pigs look like the evil men look like the pigs.
NR
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I didn’t vote for him. If you can’t wrap your simple mind around that fact, that’s your problem, not mine.
NR
@Mnemosyne: You sound a hell of a lot more like Trump than I do, given your comments in this thread.
BobbyK
You know what I don’t give a shit if I get banned from this site but FUCK YOU Anne Laurie, just FUCK YOU. I notice the Democrats gladly accept Bernie’s votes, don’t they. I voted for Bernie in the primary and gladly voted for Hillary. Keith Ellison ain’t no one’s sock puppet. You fucking neoliberals are going to lead the Democratic party right into obscurity
martian
@dm: He wanted someone to primary Obama. Bernie has indeed slagged specific Democrats and the party as a whole, and it’s not hard to find. If you want to specify a recent timeframe in which a new leaf has been turned, maybe do that, but it sounds like Anne Laurie is super pissed about the upcoming sideshow with Cruz, and Bernie’s prior history doesn’t make her thoughts on that seem unfounded.
Mnemosyne
@dm:
The PUMAs didn’t make a point of booing all of the speakers at the 2008 Democratic National Convention.
But, as I’ve said before, I strongly suspect that the most vociferous and revanchist Berniebros are actually Ron Paul fans who saw Bernie as their new Great White Hope. That’s why they’re still kicking and fighting anything that’s not specifically blessed by Bernie — they have no loyalty to the Democratic Party.
Mnemosyne
@NR:
Collaborator says what?
Mnemosyne
@Anne Laurie:
Co-signed.
martian
@BobbyK: For the purposes of the flame war, can you define “neoliberal”?
Anne Laurie
@dm:
… All in support, AFAIKT, of Sanders’ personal “Our Revolution” brand, where he’s collecting your emails to sell to the highest corporate bidders.
I’ve been biting my tongue on this BS bullshit for a while now — just last week, poor Rep. Ellison had to “concede” that he’d ask Sanders, as a personal favor, to share his email list with the Democrats, even though that list was originally built on funds from the Democratic party and its supporters.
I like Ellison, I really do, but Perez is just doing a better job at running a campaign for DNC chair. And part of Perez’s advantage is that he’s not having to row his boat while a minority of his supporters keep drilling holes in the deck ‘for purity’…
Will
@Anne Laurie: Thanks for the response Anne.
I get where you are coming from and I like the give-em-hell attitude this site generally takes. I like to dish it out myself.
I think on this particular topic, though, we ought to look at the big picture. Generalizing to a F those jerk Bernie supporters and their “sock-puppet” Ellison is not a recipe for unity, whether Perez, or Ellison, or someone else becomes chair.
Unity is not the be-all end-all, but if we set it aside it ought to be in the service of something important. Rehashing the primary is not.
iain
@cgordon: that would preclude ellipses… … …**BERNIE BROS!!!**
wow, good one you guys.
Mnemosyne
@Will:
And, as I’ve said, our best strategy to peel those few votes off in 2018 is to emphasize that Trump is incompetent. It’s going to be tough, because the other thing that happened in this election was that the white supremacists turned out in droves, but it’s probably the only way.
geg6
@Kathleen:
This. I want nothing to do with anything or anyone that Bernie is pushing for. Ellison is a fine representative for his district but Bernie cooties are in him now and that means I don’t want him running anything for the party. Bernie is not a Democrat and neither are most of his diehard supporters. I have as much interest in their opinions about the future of my party as I have for what President Bannon and his minions’ opinions about it.
Anne Laurie
@Peale:
It’s the downside to being community-oriented Democrats rather than authoritarian Republicans. Our code says that everybody, even the stupid / self- interested / low-info, deserves the right to weigh in on every action.
Be easier if we could do it like Repubs — highest bidder announces what they want, entire party apparatus promptly starts lining up the cannon fodder, who are happy to be told what to think — but then, if we could align our consciences that way we wouldn’t be Democrats!
Mnemosyne
@Will:
And yet it’s not Clinton’s supporters who keep insisting on rehashing the primary and making the DNC chair race a proxy for the primary. It’s Bernie and his ‘bots.
Bernie is still out there presenting himself as some kind of “third way” for the Democrats even though he’s not actually a Democrat anymore. That. Is. Divisive. By definition.
Will
@Mnemosyne: I don’t disagree. I also don’t think it’s all that different from what I’m talking about.
He’s incompetent vs. You put your faith in the wrong guy
These messages align. We should push them with all who are willing to hear them out.
geg6
@Will:
I’d talk to these people if they existed here, but they don’t. I’m of the opinion that they are as mythical as a sane Reoublican.
Mnemosyne
@iain:
You probably should have read a little further, bro. Several people — including myself — lay out the case for Perez.
But I’m pretty sure at this point that you hear any voice other than Bernie’s like the adult voices in “Peanuts.”
Keith G
I hate how soft Democrats have become. Some of us are old enough to have watched convection (conventions) in the original black and white.
Boos? Fuck it. There was pushing, shoving and fist fights.
In the end, Sander’s was a lot less harmful to HRC than her own defensively run campaign – and I was for her all the way, contributing more to her than all others combined….and I wish I could get a refund since the product was not as described. Someday, the great Balloon-Juice Hill/Bernie Wars will just be a curious artifact of a confused time, but for now they are stale and are really juvenile.
Edited to remove the heat. :)
C.V. Danes
@TenguPhule: If you guys are really that eat up with a few “purity ponies” on the left, then Bannon has seriously gotten deep into your heads.
geg6
@HRA:
As someone who is only a few hours away from Buffalo and who has been to Buffalo many times in my 58 years, is there another Buffalo in New York? Because the one I am familiar with is certainly what I would consider part of the Rust Belt. Unless Cleveland, Erie and Pittsburgh aren’t the Rust Belt either, in your eyes.
Will
@Mnemosyne: That hasn’t been my experience at all. I think there’s plenty of BS going on from both camps still, which is really a damn shame.
But even if what you’re saying is true, that the problem is that BernieBros want to keep fighting this, why not put someone in the DNC who they will listen to? Especially since it is someone who has in the past told Bernie people to suck it up and unify with the party (before I get called out, I mean with his actions, not that he literally told people to suck it up).
Perez is a fine person although I wish he’d run for Governor instead. Perez will have a harder time getting the ear of Bernie people though, especially if people keep pushing his candidacy as a way to stick their thumb in Bernie’s eye. It doesn’t help Perez and it doesn’t help Ellison. It doesn’t help anyone.
NR
@Anne Laurie:
Utter bullshit.
When the Democratic party was the party of the New Deal and the Great Society, and the white working class was on board (which included plenty of white men), not only was there more economic justice and equality in America, but also a) the cause of women went forward, b) civil rights and voting rights went forward, c) the cause of black Americans went forward, d) the rights of the accused went forward, and e) the cause of personal freedom, including reproductive freedom and freedom of speech, went forward.
In short, all the causes that you “New Democrats” claim are so important to you went forward. The only thing that went backward (to a limited extent) was the power of America’s rich. Since the Democratic party embraced neoliberalism, all the causes I mentioned have gone backwards, while the power of the rich has greatly expanded. And that isn’t the fault of the left or the so-called “alt-left.” The blame for that rests squarely on your shoulders.
Anne Laurie
@Will:
I kinda doubt the vast majority of those people would vote for an African-American Muslim, though, even if he does have a penis. /Course Perez is not white-nationalist-eligible, either, but at least he’s not a Muslim, ifyouknowwhatImeanandIthinkyoudo.
Mnemosyne
@Will:
Because I don’t knuckle under to blackmailers.
geg6
@dm:
Fuck that Vance asshole. He makes excuses for awful people. I know these people too. They are fucking racist, misogynist assholes and that’s why they vote for Republicans. They are pretty much every person who lives in my county, with some exceptions among the people of color and the few remaining union members and some women and scattered liberals around here. This, in a county that pre-Nixon, was a solid Dem county and is now solid GOP. I’ve known these people my entire 58 years and I know exactly why they vote GOP: to fuck over the ni**ers, sp*cs and uppity women. If they get screwed in the process, it’s never the GOP’s fault. It’s the fault of the ni**ers, sp*cs and uppity women.
Mnemosyne
@NR:
Collaborator forgot to read Nixonland and instead sends dispatches from his fantasy world where the Southern Strategy never existed.
Anne Laurie
@HRA:
I was born & raised in NYC; even though we didn’t use the term ‘Rust Belt’ fifty years ago, we absolutely considered you guys part of the industrial hinterlands. (/snark, mostly)
Jim, Foolish Literalist
that’s very insightful
Anne Laurie
@Peale:
Uhh… do you remember the 1980 Democratic primaries?
Teddy-v-Jimmy made the Hillary-Bernie warz look like a book group disagreement. That’s one reason we got godsdamned Morning-in-America Ronnie in the Oval Office!
Anne Laurie
@Chickamin Slam:
Fuck you, BernieBot. I was a WWC third-gen Democrat when you were pissing your diapers, no doubt in some suburban bunker. Wait — you still are!
Will
@Anne Laurie: This may have been lost in the threads, but the point was not “we should elect Ellison to appeal to Trump voters.” Rather, it was that we should not write off Trump voters as a whole just like we shouldn’t write off angry Bernie supporters as a whole.
I don’t think the DNC chair’s personal appeal to Trump voters is something we should value much in choosing who is best. Appealing to the broader electorate will be the job of our candidates, particularly who we nominate for President in 2020. DNC’s role is to grow the D base and lay groundwork for candidates.
dm
@martian: Sorry. I requested deletion of that message since I didn’t want to further fan the flames. But as for a time-frame of turning over a new leaf: sometime before the convention.
I stopped supporting Bernie financially with the Iowa caucuses — I thought he was on his way to achieving the goal I had for him, which was moving the Overton window to the left and pulling Hillary out of the Triangulation and Third Wayism I worried she’d adopt (and giving her a chance to practice campaigning before getting hit by the Republicans). But I’ve viewed most things he’s done as understandable efforts to move the party to the left — including prolonging the primary campaign (I think that was purely an effort to have influence over the future of the party, an influence I still view as positive).
I’ll agree those assholes at the convention were jerks. No argument there.
I think Anne sees Bernie through eyes not too different from the eyes that look at Clinton and see an ambitious, scheming, power-hungry member of “the elite”. I think Anne can’t see past her caricature of Sanders. Sadly, about 100,000 people in Michigan, Wisconsin, and Ohio couldn’t see past their caricature of Clinton, either.
This side-show with Cruz? It’s a chance to get publicity for the idea of single-payer, I imagine. Those appeals to give money to local candidates? It’s one of the things we hope Perez will do with the DNC, yes?
Look, there will always be someone wrong on the internet. Let them go. They’re annoying, but they really don’t stand in the way of us getting stuff done.
geg6
@Anne Laurie:
I’m from the industrial hinterlands and we consider Buffalo to be a part of it, too. Don’t know anyone, including all my friends from Buffalo, who doesn’t.
J R in WV
@cgordon:
My preference is for Bernie to have a tragic accident while helping a constituent work on an old rusty combine behind the barn.
This is my preference because I believe that BS’s actions during the Democratic primaries up to the convention were harmful to the party and to the party’s candidates. I also think BS could have done more to control the delegates who were selected to support his candidacy at the convention, who acted like little babbies on camera for the entire convention.
Did Trump actually threaten the Mexican president with sending troops in (to Mexico) to take care of border violence? Did Trump actually hang up on a scheduled hour long phone call with the Prime Minister of Australia after 25 minutes? Can we get an impeachment now, pleeze? Crazy!!!
The Selective Service organization is alive and well. My former boss was on the county committee for the largest (population) county in the state, and they could have a draft order out in a week or two. The biggest problem with doubling the size of the Army would be where to do boot camp(s), and where to house the new troops until we could send them into MexiCanado.
Or MexIrania… or, hum……
NR
@Mnemosyne: Totally irrelevant to what I was talking about, but if you want to keep babbling nonsense, feel free.
martian
@dm: My favourite xkcd! Let’s unite around that.
I think you aren’t giving Anne fair credit for developing her animus for Bernie rationally and organically throughout the course of the campaign, but maybe I’m projecting, because mine developed gradually like that. I started out a supporter. I’m not going to lay out the course of it and where I turned away, but I feel like Bernie did a lot of damage in those last couple of months before the convention in hardening his supporters against Clinton. His campaign ended up a hothouse of blooming rightwing-rooted, anti-Clinton propaganda. Considering the final outcome now, people are carrying a lot of anger. It’s going to just have to burn out on both sides, I don’t think people can be reasoned out of it right now.
I hope you’re right that something good comes out of the Cruz sideshow, but I can see people thinking Bernie won’t resist the urge to slide in some jabs and feeling aggravated in anticipation. Why does Bernie never bear the weight of placating or reaching out to Hillary’s and Obama’s supporters anyway? All of the emotional labour seems to land on the other side. It’s one of the things that continues to gall.
Matt
As a Bernie Sanders voter, I have to say what the fuck is your problem? Every Bernie Sanders supporter including myself voted for Hillary Clinton. The Bernie Brose did not let Hillary Clinton down, Middle-class white women did. If you look at the percent of Bernie supporters who voted for Trump and the percent of white women who voted for Trump I think you’ll see a large gap
So why is it bad for Bernie to be on TV? Trump is on TV all the time and he got his message out there and one on his TV persona. I feel like a lot of you don’t realize the game has changed, The days of being a moderate technocratic Democratic Party are gone . I’m hoping the new left starts by primarying Mark Warner. Any of the current democratic congressman in the state will be 10 times better.
dm
@martian: I have to admit that I avoided the comment section here on Balloon Juice through a lot of the late Spring and Summer because I couldn’t stand the Bernie Derangement Syndrome. Yeah, maybe I should go back to that practice.
And yeah, I’ve certainly rolled my eyes at the “Goldman Sachs speaking fees!” “Podesta emails!” stuff. (On the other hand, I am amused at how being critical of Debbie Wasserman Schultz is now a crime — she was chair of the DNC from 2011 to 2016, remember how we used to have a fifty state strategy?). Sadly, I think a lot of that crap was enabled by the feeling we all had that Hillary was a shoo-in (remember the things said here to Trumpkin trolls?)
Anyway, don’t feed the Bernie trolls, but it might not hurt to not be a troll oneself.
Mnemosyne
@NR:
Collaborator proves that he forgot to read Nixonland since he claims to have no idea why it’s idiotic to say that white people supported the Great Society programs until Democrats turned corporate.
martian
@dm: Have I been especially trollish today? I didn’t think so. Maybe a couple of pokes.
I won’t try to persuade you to stick around the comments, since we all need to pace ourselves and be judicious about where our energy goes for the long haul right now, but the comment sections rarely break out into primary lashings and rehashings these days. And I think most people consider DWS fair game if the criticisms are grounded in things like her shielding her Republican besties from harm or general lack of competence. It was just the level of insanity and elevation of her into some kind of tentacled, evil mastermind of Shillary’s coronation that people were really reacting against. Otherwise, bombs away, so far as I’ve seen. I don’t think I’ve met a fan here.
Yeah, we mostly all thought Hillary would win, and maybe some people thought they had the luxury of internecine warfare and it just spiraled. I wouldn’t underestimate the effect of paid trolls and disrupters in that, though. And now, people aren’t always nice to each other when they’re grieving.
Another Scott
@dm: Dead thread, but…
Hillary Clinton was and is a Democrat.
In every speech for something like 18 months, Bernie’s trademarked lines included “Corrupt™ Campaign Finance System” which got distilled to “Corrupt™” with the intentional insinuation that she and the DNC and the Democratic Party were Corrupt™. And Bernie was somehow Shocked, Shocked at the Convention that his supporters took his speeches seriously and wouldn’t drop their opposition to actually support Hillary.
I’m almost forced to conclude that you’re being disingenuous if you claim you didn’t catch him trashing her and the party. Or maybe you weren’t really listening.
My $0.02.
Cheers,
Scott.
gwangung
@NR:
Dude, you’re an asshole who doesn’t know his history. You’re like one of those whiny white boys who think they’re in charge when the Third World folks were organizing to get things done.
Now, go study some history and go fuck off.
NR
@Mnemosyne: You can babble irrelevant bullshit all you want, it doesn’t change the fact that when the white working class was on board with the Democratic party, the rights of women and non-white Americans expanded, and now that the Democrats have jumped in bed with Wall Street and the corporate boardrooms, those rights are in jeopardy.
Those are simple facts.
NR
@gwangung: Um, the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act were passed in the exact time period I’m talking about. Sounds like you’re the one who needs to study some history, bro.
gwangung
@NR: I can take being called a banana from within the community, but you? BWAH HAH HAH HAHA
Your sense of history is all fucked up, or else you’d know the moment the traditional New Deal Democratic Party started falling apart was when the white working class couldn’t stand it when the Civil Rights Act and Voting Rights Act were jammed through. The bulk of the New Deal coalition was just fine when blacks and Japanese Americans got reamed when social security and WWII were getting done.
Now fuck off.
NR
@gwangung: I never called you a “banana” or any other name. I have no idea what you’re on about.
And no, the traditional New Deal Democratic party didn’t fall apart with the passage of the Civil and Voting Rights Acts. The South turned Republican at that point, but working-class whites in the upper Midwest kept voting Democratic (Reagan excepted) for decades afterward. It was only when the party abandoned them for Wall Street that they finally left.
Fuck off yourself.
dm
@Another Scott:
This is mind-reading. When I read that mind, I see something else. This is kind of what I meant earlier when I talked about seeing Bernie through the same sort of glasses that people have seen Hillary through — looking beyond what they did to find an “intent”.
As I said earlier, I’d asked for that post to be deleted, in part because I felt like defending the “never heard Bernie ‘slagging’ Democrats” was a bridge too far. But talking about a corrupt campaign finance system, nor complaining about multi-hundred-thousand dollar speaking fees to Goldman Sachs, nor reminding people of her “super-predator” comments does not constitute “slagging”. I thought some of the Sanders campaign people should have toned it down, though, and the super-delegate stuff was hypocritical, but probably necessary to keep the campaign alive to amass delegates for the platform fight. Different people may view the importance of that differently.
@martian: Sorry, I was not directing the “troll” advice to you.
Another Scott
@dm:
Sorry, but no it isn’t.
I live with someone, my dear wife J, who just about every day reminds me of Bernie’s campaign language, and she’s not talking about some Campaign Finance issues.
YMMV.
Re-litigating the primaries isn’t going to stop Trump. It would be nice if we kept our eyes on the prize…
Cheers,
Scott.
Raven Onthill
Man, there’s nothing Sanders did to the Democratic Party that was worse than what the party did to itself.
Partisan Cheese
Anne Laurie hates Sanders, the sky is blue. Keeps thinking being hostile to other liberals is a winning strategy. If only they would get on board the establishment train. Maybe if you think up some more dumb slurs that will inspire fellow progressives to see the establishment light!
Please explain how any of Sanders policies would have been as terrible as Trump right now. You can’t, yet, I would bet your hatred for either is almost equal. Good job shooting down those who want to be your allies. Keep it up, its certainly working in the elections!
DCF
@Partisan Cheese:
One need not go further than reading the words of many in this commentariat – and some of the ‘front pagers’ on this blog – to understand the current state of the Democratic Party at the state and Federal level(s).
Bill Black: Not 4 Sale – Why the Corrupt, Worker-Hating New Democrats Must Be Purged
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2017/01/bill-black-not-4-sale-corrupt-worker-hating-new-democrats-must-purged.html
Vlad
It’s good to know that even though I held my nose and voted for Clinton in the general in spite of not liking or trusting her and disagreeing with her on a large number of issues and policy positions, her catastrophic failure in the general election is still entirely the fault of me and other Sanders supporters like me.
Don’t ever change, Anne.
Loneoak
I found Ellison’s interview on the Ezra Klein podcast very persuasive. Most notably, he’s the only Democrat to run up higher raw vote totals each election for the past 4 (6? don’t remember exactly right now) while others were falling. His district is the primary reason MN remains blue because the huge and growing raw vote numbers make it impossible for a statewide Republican to win. And he didn’t do it with spending money on bullshit ads crafted by Friends of Hillary Consultants for $1M/hour payscales. He has a permanent ground crew that canvasses the district perpetually, hitting residences multiple times a year. They even innovated a way to keep track of people in high-turnover apartment buildings.
For my money, that’s what we need. I’m not going to bitch about Perez, but how many elections has he won lately? Why think he knows how to?
And Anne Laurie, seriously with the shitposting? Why are you trying to make this an unpleasant place to visit?
Alli
@Will: I don’t think Erie is very representative. It’s one of the only counties in PA where turnout was down from this year. Clinton only did 65k votes worse than Obama, but Trump did 230k votes better than Romney, which Erie doesn’t really show. If all that happened was Obama voters flipping to Trump, Clinton would have won PA by a lot. Trump got a bunch of people who don’t normally vote to vote in PA (FL too where Hillary did 250k better than Obama and Trump did 500k better than Romney)