Oh shit, @NancyPelosi called Bannon a White Supremacist TWICE pic.twitter.com/a53ANqRaOo
— Tommy Christopher (@tommyxtopher) February 2, 2017
BOOM!
Republicans will call Pelosi the REAL racist, but it wouldn’t surprise me if some Democrats freak out about her comment too. Do we really want to bring “identity politics” back into the conversation?
Fuck that noise, I say. I’m grateful to Pelosi for telling it like it is. If anything good comes of the Trump debacle, let it be that we finally decided to stop lying to ourselves and sugar-coating unpleasant truths.
Yutsano
If it walks like a duck…
PhoenixRising
Any human who criticizes her calling a shovel a gardening implement, but didn’t comment on her statement that Dems would work with Trump on infrastructure, I’m questioning the loyalty of.
D58826
@Yutsano: then it was be a goldfish!!!!! Alternate facts remember!!!!!
kindness
I love me some Nancy. When ‘real’ liberals were writing her off and calling her a dinosaur and talking smack about her during the primaries (and the general election) I had to wonder how many of them were paid Republican/Russian trolls. Sadly, not all of them were.
@PhoenixRising: talk about speaking too soon.
jake the antisoshul soshulist
I’m sometimes slow on the uptake.
I should have realized it before.
But, I have realized that people are not blind to previlige. They are perfectly aware of it, no matter how much they deny.
They are well aware of their previlige, think it is a good thing, think it is something they deserve or have earned, and will do whatever they can to retain.
Pretending it doesn’t exist is just a common defense tactic.
dedc79
Trump’s wall is reminding me more and more of the Emperor’s New Clothes:
gbear
I just called Pelosi’s DC office and got a human in two rings.
I gave her a big thank you for this.
Call her now.
JordanRules
Thank you Nancy!!!
So a reporter asked Spicer about the appropriateness of Trump’s comments at the prayer breakfast today. This is what you waste your question on during today’s “presser”? Really?
Origuy
Jesus Fucking Christ
The security guard was supposed to be unarmed.
jl
@PhoenixRising: If the Trump infrastructure spending proposal remains a corporate welfare gimmick, Democrats can make symbolic statements about maybe working with Trump on it if they want, but they will end up voting against it and making a big stink in opposition. So if Pelosi wants to say stuff like that to signal that Democrats, unlike GOPers, are not complete obstructionist assholes, that is OK with me.
Glad Pelosi called out Bannon. Chickenshit Democrats need to shut up and step aside.
jl
@Yutsano: If a duck calls itself a duck… then…why not agree with it?
bobbo
I think it’s a good move. It “normalizes” calling out Trump/Bannon for what they are.
Major Major Major Major
We definitely need to get rid of her and replace her with the real liberal, Tim “dago red wine” Ryan.
Ian
@PhoenixRising:
Problem solved! Reintroduce loyalty oaths! And if they disagree with your tactical concerns about how to fix bridges, roads, trains, airports, and seaports, well then off with their heads!
Roger Moore
@jl:
But he calls himself a “White Nationalist” not a “White Supremacist”, so it’s totally different.
liberal
Anyone see this shit about Trump saying he’d do away with the prohibition against churches making political endorsements?
Feebog
Don’t know why any Democrat would have the least problem with this. Bannon is a flaming racist, and the trail is there to prove it. Can’t wait until some Republican sanctimoniously scolds her, the blowback will be delicious.
Petorado
Bannon’s been quite secretive to this point, so I think it is a good tactic by Pelosi to try to draw him out from the shadows and shine some light upon both his role and his wacko viewpoints. Racists hate bing called racists, so he may fall for the bait, though I’ll bet he keeps his powder dry and has some surrogate, like Paul Ryan, respond with some liberal-baiting crap comments about Pelosi and San Francisco.
rikyrah
@dedc79:
Transparent wall?
Da hail??????
hovercraft
@JordanRules:
I love Nancy Smash !!
Of course this is what they focus on, they are bored by real issues, celebrity twitter fight is so much more entertaining.
Always remember that the bullshit “Beer Summit” came about because April Ryan at the end of an hour long presser about Obamacare, asked Obama what he thought about Skip Gates getting arrested on his own goddamn front porch. Obama spoke the truth and the rest is history, how dare the president say that a cop shouldn’t arrest an uppity ni**er who had the gall to get mouthy with a cop. The next several days were then consumed with “does Obama hate the police?” Healthcare was barely mentioned, and even then only in passing.
A Ghost to Most
@Yutsano:
If it goose-steps like a white supremacist ..
dedc79
@rikyrah: So now we just need to convince Trump that there’s actually already a yuge transparent wall running the entire border….
Villago Delenda Est
Bannon is Nazi filth. He needs to go the way of von Ribbentrop, Streicher, and the rest of the war criminals.
Villago Delenda Est
@liberal: Yes, and it’s a huge “Up Yours!” to James Madison.
jl
My brain does have problems when Democrats say that they are willing to work with Trump on infrastructure proposals, but not because I think it is a bad thing to say.
It’s because the notion of working ‘with’ Trump on anything is so obviously absurd. Like there is a meth head on a bender rampaging through the house ripping stuff up with a chainsaw, and you say you are willing to work with him on fixing the porch. Probably an analogy to working on the square circle should come in, but I can’t think how to do it right now. My brain hurts.
Villago Delenda Est
@jl: You make the offer, and when it’s rejected for whatever reason, then you can be intransigent.
The Senate is already at the intransigent point. The House is not there, yet. It will be.
jl
@Petorado: Maybe Bannon’s been secretive about his tactical plans. But I don’t see how he has been all that secretive about his beliefs or his core values, which are disgusting and vile.
Mike E
@jl: your analogy works just fine
BlueDWarrior
@jl: what still concerns me is that too many of the hoi poli want to blow this off as liberals/sjws being such. And I dunno how to crack that nut.
liberal
@kindness:
Who was that?
The only legit complaint I’ve seen leveled against her is that she’s not really a great spokesperson. But that’s not her primary role.
liberal
@Villago Delenda Est: Well, now we know how to attack it: “Why do the Republicans hate the Founding Fathers so much?”
Corner Stone
@liberal:
I thought it was already ok for church’s to make political endorsements? As long as it is pro-Republican and/or threatening to ex-communicate anyone who votes for the D.
ThresherK
@rikyrah: Star Trek IV had time travel, and Scotty giving an engineer in this timeframe the formula for invisible aluminum.
I wasn’t aware that it was a documentary.
Miss Dashwood
Good for Pelosi – we need to call out the bullshit. That’s the only way to keep from being buried by it. I was married to a narcissistic sociopath for 23 years and after years of intensive therapy and anti-depressants I can tell you the only way to keep your sanity is to keep calling out the cray-cray. I survived my ordeal (just barely) – I no longer need anti-depressants but I still see my psychiatrist and therapist a few times a year to stay ahead of any possible relapse – but Trump and his cronies have caused me severe bouts of PTSD since the second debate.
Laugh and mock when you can, but when shit is serious the whole Democratic Party needs to stand together and use the proper terminology.
Jeffro
@Petorado:
Yup. And there are a number of other things coming out about Bannon these days that lead me to believe he will be catching more and more fire in the near future
– TIME cover story (his ugly mug’s on the cover) that unveils what he’s about
– Several WaPo stories today have “Bannon’s beliefs” and “Bannon’s influence” noted
– Saw in Slate that, supposedly, Congress could remove Bannon from the NSC seat
I can see Ds and Rs coming at the same goal – remove, or at least neuter, Bannon – from different angles. I wish the Rs well with that, because other than Ivanka, Kushner, Conway, and Flynn, Bannon IS the Trumpov Administration. He’s the nasty little demon sitting on Trump’s shoulder. Trump’s going to tell all the Rs to fuck off and then we’ll see just how much of Bannon’s influence the Rs are going to be able to excuse when their constituents come calling…
Yoda Dog
That’s how you don’t let this shit be normal. Just called form NC to thank her. Thats a first. More of this, please, dems.
Corner Stone
Sean Spicer is spectacularly bad at this job. It is epic in its level of awesome horrifyingness. He looks like his head is being shrunk a little more each session.
hellslittlestangel
Thank you, Nancy Pelosi. You are an American hero.
Yarrow
YES! Bring it, NANCY SMASH!
Major Major Major Major
@liberal: A bunch of House dems, led by Tim Ryan–a fellow who laments that Democrats just don’t understand the Midwestern white guys at the corner bar who like to get drunk on ‘dago red wine’–held a protest contest against her for Speaker because she was out of touch with heartland values, and that’s why we lost.
@ThresherK: Fun fact, we actually do have transparent aluminum now.
Seanly
Oh my! Da uncivility! It is enough to give a proper gentleman the vapahs. /snark
Between riots in Berkeley against Milo and Pelosi calling a spade a spade, I am happy.
Turgidson
Keep up the good work, Nancy Smash. I hope we’re finally past the era where Democrats all melt into puddles of cowardice whenever one of their members tells the truth in unsually blunt terms. They called Obama every pejorative they could think of, and he was a man of class and dignity who deserved none of that shit. Bannon is exactly what Pelosi says he is. And while he might object to the term she used, he’s fucking proud of what he is.
Saw over at the [original] Great Orange Satan that PPP ran a poll showing 40% already want to impeach Hair Furor. That’s not bad given he’s only been in office two fucking weeks. I don’t think the GOP even wanted to impeach Obama that soon after his inauguration – not his first one, at least. The activism and pressure are working.
Immanentize
At the next march I go to, should I carry a picture of Bannon that reads:
NAZI PUNK, FUCK OFF!
?
randy khan
@dedc79:
That may be Kelly’s plan.
kindness
@liberal: Who was that? Not touching that. I didn’t say that to start a flame war so much to say Democrats all too readily form us circular firing squads. And you are saying Nancy isn’t a great communicator on a thread based on Nancy being the first Democratic Leader to publicly call Bannon the racist he obvious is. Do you see the disconnect in that?
Corner Stone
What I am seeing in a lot of areas is that only legitimate criticism of Trump is being passed along. And the way to authenticate the criticism as “legitimate” is to state loudly and proudly that the person/source of the criticism is a MANLY MAN WHO HAS NO LIBERAL thoughts in his head or history, EVER!
Because it is only people who are hard core conservatives that buck Trump that have authentic voices that should be listened to.
Liberals aka people with a working brainpan, need not apply.
kindness
Did my reply comment hit moderation? It isn’t showing.
Immanentize
@jl: on infrastructure — I think the plan is to get Trump to work with Democrats. They are preparing an infrastructure bill that would allow him to “keep his promise.” I think this is a great strategy — oppose all he does that is bad, get out front on what should happen. This also has the benefit of creating an election agenda for Dems.
Teddys Person
@Immanentize: NO NAZI PUNKS IN MY GOVERNMENT
Miss Bianca
@A Ghost to Most:
Then it’s a duck!
Yarrow
@Jeffro:
Russian kompromat on Trump that’s sitting in some file somewhere under Putin’s control is the real thing that’s running this administration. Trump will do anything to keep whatever that stuff is from getting out.
Thoroughly Pizzled
@Corner Stone: And only Nixon could go to China. The curse of liberalism is always being ahead of the times. Good if you care about your own ego, bad if you care about the world.
rikyrah
Philadelphia teacher starts crowdfunding campaign to “buy” Sen. Pat Toomey’s vote against Betsy DeVos
— Select All (@selectall) February 2, 2017
The Capitol switchboard number is 202-224-3121, and Sen. Toomey’s direct office line is 202-224-4254.
Other district phone numbers:
(610) 434-1444 – Allentown
(814) 453-3010 – Erie
(717) 782-3951 – Harrisburg
(814) 266-5970 – Johnstown
(215) 241-1090 – Philadelphia
(412) 803-3501 – Pittsburgh
(570) 941-3540 – Scranton
Kay Eye
Hurrah for Nancy Smash. She was a great Speaker of the House. She got ACA passed.
Miss Bianca
@jl: Someone’s suggestion in the previous thread, about the need for Democrats’ p*ning of the wall process – get a bunch of stuff in there about eminent domain seizing Texas land for 50 miles inland all along the length of the wall, and then sitting back to watch what happened – seems appropriate here.
Loki’s come to Washington..maybe it’s time to adapt his tactics to deal with him.
Keith G
It’s a big party so someone might (to score some points or get a small headline), but I kind of doubt it.
Bloomberg reporter Joshua Green says Bannon considers himself an economic nationalist, saying in all the time he has spent with him over the last 5 years, he has never heard Bannon say anything racist.
To which Joshua Johnson (took over for Diane Rheem) said, “You know it;’s funny, but racists tend not to say racist things in front of their friends.”
delk
I wonder how many liquor store employees/owners said, “Holy Shit! THAT guy is advising the president?”
rikyrah
Why Republicans Might Fail to Repeal Obamacare
by Nancy LeTourneau
February 2, 2017 12:01 PM
Since his inauguration, Donald Trump has been busy defending his legitimacy, making unfounded accusations about voter fraud, signing executive orders, approving botched terrorist raids, threatening federal workers and bullying foreign allies. Meanwhile, when it comes to Congress, not much is happening.
Republican leaders made it clear that their first legislative priority was to repeal Obamacare. That got bogged down because they have no idea about how to replace it and are experiencing a backlash from constituents who fear losing their coverage. Lately the divisions in Republican ranks have been fueled by a controversy over whether to repeal or repair the law.
Cacti
@Miss Bianca:
You don’t defeat fascists by trying to give them lessons in humanity.
A lack of humanity and empathy is central to the ideology.
It’s always a good time to punch a Nazi.
Immanentize
@delk: all of them.
Gian
@liberal:
The right already does it anyway despite the law. Wasn’t it a big panic in 2012 for them when it was brought up? (And then nothing was done about it)
I’m not fully aware of the history of this law. Was it just “good government” or was it aimed at Black churches?
Keith G
@Jeffro: I think you are correct. Barring some change in the flow of news, a lot of folks seem to be on the Bannon beat
martian
@Origuy: This is horrifying. How has there been no arrest? A rent-a-cop who wasn’t even supposed to be armed, fired 5 bullets through the windshield of a van killing an unarmed man – why is that fucker not in custody!?!
Immanentize
@martian: because the victim was a grandfatherly Chinese man who loved his kids and grandkids but didn’t speak English. So he had it coming?
waysel
Do all comments by everyone get a five minute delay before posting, or am I just special? Serious question.
jl
@Immanentize: @Miss Bianca:
I think that Democrats getting out in front and preparing proposals to implement the non-insane campaign promises Trump made is a good idea. Will be interesting to see Trump’s reaction. Well, no, I won’t see it, I can’t stand to see or hear him. I’ll read about it.
MikeHoncho
Maybe I been in a bubble, but isnt it widely recognized hes a White supramcist?
Corner Stone
@delk:
It’s more likely they are trying to figure out how to get the contract to deliver alcohol to the Hill and WH.
A Ghost to Most
I think the GOP hates “Obamacare” more than they hate ACA. I guess they shouldn’t have named it that in derision.
Humboldtblue
House Republicans in Hawaii have removed their speaker because that uppity nasty bitch had the temerity to march in the local women’s march against Trump. How she’s thinking of switching parties.
rikyrah
Republicans Face a Tough Medicaid Dilemma
KEVIN DRUM
FEB. 1, 2017 6:39 PM
ep. Phil Roe (R–Tenn.) is a member of the Republican Study Committee, the uber-conservative wing of House Republicans. A while back he got the assignment of coming up with a replacement plan for Obamacare, which he cheerfully admits was a difficult task: “I was asked to put together a plan that increased access [and] lowered costs but didn’t increase entitlements, so my hands were a bit tied,” he told Sarah Kliff in an interview yesterday. But she says the most surprising part of the interview was this:
What I thought was going to be easy was I thought Medicaid, we’d just block-grant it to the states. That one actually is going to be a little harder than I thought. The reason is there are states like New York, states that expanded [Medicaid]. How do you cover that 10 or so million people on Medicaid?
As Kliff notes, every Republican is on board with block-granting Medicaid. The reason is that, in practice, it pretty much guarantees a steady reduction in Medicaid spending, which opens up budget room for more tax cuts on the rich. What’s not to like?
So what is Roe’s problem? Allow me to translate. If you block-grant Medicaid, you have to decide how big a grant each state gets. This would be based on how many Medicaid recipients each state has.
And that presents a difficulty. You see, blue states have all taken advantage of Obamacare’s Medicaid expansion, while red states haven’t. This means that blue states now have an outsize share of Medicaid recipients, and therefore would get outsize grants. Here’s a picture to demonstrate the problem using everyone’s favorite red and blue states:
………………………………………………..
These are rough numbers, but they’re in the ballpark of what Medicaid looked like before and after Obamacare. Assuming a total block grant budget of roughly $350 billion, California’s grant increases from $55 billion to $58 billion thanks to Obamacare’s Medicaid expansion. Meanwhile, the share allocated to Texas declines from $25 billion to $22 billion.
A Ghost to Most
@waysel: no. Changes to nym or email, and certain words can trip it.
Corner Stone
@kindness:
Dear Comrade Kindness,
We are sorry to inform you that your…comment…did not fit in with Party Orthodoxy. And so it has been resettled to a glorious dacha in WordPress Siberia!
Now, please, to be bringing yourself in for educational type classes we are pleased to offer our good peoples.
bupalos
I’m from the kumbaya caucus, and I fully approve Smash’s phrasing there. Actually, I think she’s trying to bait them into correcting her that he’s not a white supremacist, but a white nationalist and I think that would be fantastic if they fall in that trap.
Peale
@rikyrah: There won’t be a political disaster. I think they believe that if they discuss it in terms like “I don’t want to do this” their voters will continue to think “well my good Congressman is a gentle soul and was forced to do it”. The kinder, gentler, conservative who sends you to the poor house but wouldn’t have…really wouldn’t have…nice guy.
? Martin
Not criticizing Pelosi’s tactics, she’s 100% correct here. But how do the Democrats back down from this position? How does Trump back down without admitting he supports white supremacists? How do Republicans who backed the travel ban back down without also inferring they too are white supremacists?
Between the nuclear option and the USSC pick, the eroding of Senate rules, the firing of the AG, this, the protests, etc. The sides of this are hardening *quickly* and the only party that can de-escalate things are congressional Republicans, and how much faith does anyone have in them?
polyorchnid octopunch
Interesting thing. Right now Reuters is reporting that US military officials say the raid in Yemen was approved by Trump without sufficient backup, intelligence, and ground support. I wonder when that decision was made… and if the demotion of the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs and the DNI were because they insisted on bringing up those inconvenient not-alternative facts about this mission during discussions of it at the NSC and were therefore demoted by President Bannon because they weren’t telling Der Trumper what he wanted to hear.
Corner Stone
@? Martin:
Ummm, why do you ask?
danielx
Preach it, Sister Betty! All Pelosi is doing is calling a spade a fucking shovel. Subtlety is completely lost on the Trumpkins, so why waste time with it?
Also too, NANCY SMASH!
waysel
@A Ghost to Most: Thanks. I have a problem then. I get a five minute delay every single time, no changes in anything, and I’ve commented (infrequently) for months. ?? Betty Cracker??
rikyrah
@polyorchnid octopunch:
YESS
YESSSSSS
Betty Cracker
Can’t remember the names off the top of my head, but at least a couple of reporters/analysts from “respectable” outlets like the WSJ have migrated to the Breitbart media properities. Hey, why not — the dude who ran the joint is now the president’s* senior strategist, right? That’s one reason I’m glad Pelosi is calling out that piece of shit Bannon. Brietbart is a racist, sexist, xenophobic hate site. It’s a tool of authoritarians who set out to undermine Western democracies — coordinated from the fucking White House.
The Moar You Know
Fuck yes we do. “Identity politics” gave us Trump. We need to talk about this a lot.
ETA: Trump and Bannon have no room to move on this and can’t ignore it. They either have to acknowledge (problematic for them) or deny (pisses off their base). Nancy just put them into a serious no-win position.
? Martin
@polyorchnid octopunch: The meeting to discuss the raid was on 1/25 or 1/26. The change in the NSC was on the 27th, so it could well have played a role. The raid was I think on the 28th local time, so they committed themselves to the NSC decision before measuring the results from the raid itself. If the NSC changes were the result of that meeting and they’re having 2nd thoughts, they politically are in a bind. They don’t want to reverse their decision, and when the Senate meets to confirm this change, it’ll be a lot harder to get support given the results.
Just bad planning in every possible way.
polyorchnid octopunch
@dedc79: I am reminded of nothing so much as this: http://www.gocomics.com/doonesbury/1976/05/09
? Martin
@Corner Stone: Because I think we’re on the cusp of a defacto civil war in this country. I’m not asking Dems to back down – I think they’re completely in the right here – but if this situation continues to escalate, I expect we will soon find ourselves debating how much violence we can tolerate in holding this position.
Villago Delenda Est
@liberal: They hate the Enlightenment and all its fruits. To include the Constitution of the United States.
MCA1
@Jeffro: I think it works in several ways. For one, it makes Republicans own or disown Bannon. The more stories we get out there actually vetting him to the public, the more pressure it puts on elected Republicans to start actively calling for the removal of der Fuchspeltfuhrer’s right hand devil. That’s just a winner all around. The other thing it does is start to peel off the lazy, foolhardy, taken in by the unbearable false equivalency of it all, think both parties are equally captured by the .1% and don’t even want to help the little guy, voters, from the true rightwing nationalist base. Take the mask off what they actually voted for, and force them to think of Drumpf as either a stooge who’s turned over the Executive Branch to Rasputin (aka “Bannon Dicked Arnold”) or a deplorable himself. A number of people will reel in horror either way. At worst, you get Drumpf and Bannon to outwardly reject the alt-right. Even if they dogwhistle that it’s all for show, certain elements of that crowd will feel betrayed. They’d feel heat from the puppetmaster in Moscow, too.
On top of all of that is the fact that Bannon is unbelievably dangerous, totally unqualified, and an unrepentant anarchist who should be nowhere near the levers of power. Bringing him out into the light is a means to getting people to pay attention to his shenanigans and potentially start to roadblock him.
danielx
Am I imagining things, or does Steve Bannon resemble more than a few serious substance abusers I’ve known over the years?
Roger Moore
@jl:
I think it’s important for the Democrats to say stuff like “We’re willing to work with Trump on infrastructure” for three reasons:
1) It shows they’re interested in infrastructure, which they should be. It never hurts to say you want to rebuild infrastructure and provide lots of good construction jobs.
2) The media steadfastly refuses to acknowledge that Trump is a meth addict with a chainsaw, so they’re going to paint any Democrat who simply says they’re going to say “no” to everything Trump proposes as a mindless obstructionist, not somebody who’s opposed to crazies with chainsaws. Presenting themselves as willing to work with him on something gives them an out.
3) It’s an area where he actually has some differences with the Republicans in Congress. Exploiting any disagreement like that is a good idea anyway.
Note that all of the stuff about working with Trump on infrastructure has been hedged. So if Trump really wants a tax break boondoggle rather than a serious infrastructure plan- very likely, of course- they can gracefully back out.
The Moar You Know
@liberal: Yep. Pisses me off. The deal was, churches would be exempt from income tax but had to stay out of politics.
I’m not going to squawk too hard about this, because the prohibition has been roundly ignored since the eighties, the IRS has refused to enforce it, and the only ones who obey it are liberal, law-abiding congregations. Might as well stop pretending.
Betty Cracker
@waysel: Wish I could help, but I have no idea why that would happen. Maybe ping Alain?
rikyrah
About those believing that Gorsuch’s ‘ Facist Forever’ was just a ‘child’s prank’
Here’s the quote from his High School Yearbook….
WHO THE PHUCK THINKS LIKE THIS?
The famous person he chose to quote?
Tell me again why I should think the man has any humanity.
BlueDWarrior
@? Martin: if anything, this has been something building since the Sixties. We have refused time and time again to redress in systemic ways the problems various demographic groups face, choosing instead backslash and trying to hardcore the supposed status quo into law and culture. In the last 20 yearsn the fan had broken, and only made the revanchists more aggravated.
I think that why so many Western countries are seeing varying permutations of right wing backlash. The world they are used to no longer exists, and either they wiil resurrect it, or punish us for destroying it.
Now how you resolve that without coming to blows is anyone’s guess honestly.
dedc79
@polyorchnid octopunch: brilliant!
GxB
@rikyrah: Red tape on the ground, like Les Nessman’s “office” at WKRP.
Mnemosyne
@? Martin:
Why should they back down from the truth? Bannon is a white supremacist. That’s the truth.
That’s not our problem. If Republicans don’t like us pointing out that their party is riddled with white supremacists who write regulations based on their white supremacist beliefs, then they can fire Bannon and the rest of his white supremacist crew. It’s not the Democrats’ job to normalize white supremacists.
Major Major Major Major
@danielx: Oh, no, he’s quite clearly an alcoholic and/or drug addict.
bupalos
@The Moar You Know: The only way this makes sense is if “talking about identity politics” is somehow the cure to identity politics.
Check out the social science research on how pretty much all “white people” react when they are simply reminded that the concept of “non-white people” exists. But it’s a conundrum, I admit. The good thing here with Ms. Smash’s statement is that it leaves open what I think is the only good political ground on the issue, which is denying that “race” exists (since it doesn’t) except in the real social context of racism (white supremacy) and its effects.
waysel
@Betty Cracker: Thanks. Will watch for Alain.
The Moar You Know
@? Martin: The answer had better be “as much as the other side is willing to dish out, and we’re going to pay it back double every time” because otherwise we have lost, the GOP wins for good, and we can just stop having elections.
There will be violence and people will die. Probably a lot. Better get used to that idea. Because the other guys…they’re gonna kill you anyway.
Teddys Person
@rikyrah: Can see why Donald “I could shoot someone on 5th Ave” Trump likes this guy. It’s like looking in a soulless mirror.
SenyorDave
I’ve been waiting fro a powerful person in gov’t to do this. Thank you, Nancy Pelosi! And fuck most of the media in advance for their outrage.
Hurling Dervish
@dedc79: In fact, the wall has already been built. He put it up in his first week in office. You can go and see it. It’s just that it’s transparent, so only the truly wise people can actually see it.
Gelfling 545
@rikyrah: I think they mean invisible.
Patricia Kayden
@dedc79: Transparent as in non-existent? LOL. How many billions of tax payer dollars are going to be wasted on this boondoggle?
eclare
@The Moar You Know: I wish they’d do the opposite re: the Johnson rule. Let churches politick all they want, but end all tax exemption.
Chet Murthy
It’s my doing! I called her office and thanked her for resisting! I’m *sure* that that’s why she did it!
*grin* OK, just joking. But it DID feel good, being able to tell my elected representative that I was happy with what she’s doing, and that I’d remember.
I called up Feinstein’s office and let ’em know how unhappy I was, that I expected at least that she’d resist the fascist usurper 100%, that people were making decisions about how far they would go in resistance, whether they’d be putting their bodies on the line, if Trump started rounding up immigrants, and that the -least- we could expect, would be that she’d be there 100% for us. And that we were all remembering this, and that if she didn’t shape up, I’d be supporting her primary opponent, whoever it was. Mentioned Gorsuch, but that that wasn’t enough, not by a long shot.
Then did the same for two senators to whom I’d donated who’ve been weak. Mentioned Gorsuch, but also the appointees they’d voted yes on.
And then, called up Warren, Gillibrand, and Merkley, and thanked them too (sure, they’re not 100%, but you can’t be a perfectionist). Made sure to mention “future higher office” and “we’re going to remember you were there for us”.
I feel so much better. So much better.
Time to find Dem party meeting, I guess.
bupalos
@SenyorDave: I’m going to guess that the wingers don’t take the bait on this one. I hope they do, I think a few cycles of them making these distinctions between “nationalism” and “economic nationalism” and “christian nationalism” and “white nationalism” and “alt-right” and “white supremacy” would be fantastic. Although no need to take the bait back in that case, the right response if they do is just “oh, sorry, don’t know what you’re offended by in these things because we just honestly have no idea what you’re talking about with this stuff. We believe in America and Americans.”
Shell
Maybe for the same reason the General praised the four-seat latrine in M*A*S*H.
“Good. The men can encourage each other.”
GregB
Two weeks in and the drumbeat of lies for war with Iran have begun.
All of the libertarian left sites assured me Trump would pull in the oars and be a peaceful isolationist.
Mnemosyne
@rikyrah:
Now I’m thinking that Pelosi’s comments today are targeted at that judge. C’mon, Republicans, deny that this creepy guy isn’t a white supremacist.
Doug R
@? Martin: You’re forgetting there’s more of us than them and we have John Lewis on our side.
The Moar You Know
@eclare: Could not agree with you more, but that ship has sailed. I bet the vast majority of Americans, all parties, think that taxing churches is unconstitutional.
Patricia Kayden
@bupalos: I have a feeling that many Republicans don’t care about being called a White supremacist or a racist. Go to Rightwing websites and see what they have to say about racial, religious or sexual minorities. Look at how they denigrated our beautiful First Lady, Michelle Obama. Look at how upset they got when a Nazi, Richard Spencer, was punched on camera a few weeks ago.
artem1s
If attacking Bannon sends signals to the military and national security agencies that Dems are on their side, I say yea Nancy Smash. The Yemen clusterfuck is looking more and more like Bannon’s wetdream and the military advisors got completely blocked out of it. Anything that brings on the Night of the Long Knives faster and bloodier works for me.
NotMax
“Some of my best friends are ni- um, colored” in 3… 2… 1…
Gelfling 545
@Corner Stone: Exactly. Why would they? You don’t back down from the truth.
eyelessgame
You know, when Trump takes someone’s comment as an insult to himself or anyone else in his circle, he forcefully tweets an insult back.
So the lack of a response to this presumably means he doesn’t see this as an insult.
Villago Delenda Est
@danielx: Donald is a cokehead. Why shouldn’t Bannon be a substance abuser?
TenguPhule
@liberal: Yes, down a thread or two.
That snapping sound you hear is the few remaining tethers of civilization giving way to open warfare.
JordanRules
@Major Major Major Major: Doesn’t pull it off as well as Boehner. Bannon is so gross.
burnspbesq
@liberal:
Yup. He said it. Satisfying an outstanding invoive from the crackpot fundies and Cardinal Dolan for their support.
tobie
@MCA1: Agreed. I think Nancy’s trying to move the conversation to another theme now that the cabinet hearings are done. She’s drawing attention to whom Trump has placed on the National Security Council and whom he has taken off (Joint Chiefs of Staff–military brass). This is a good thing to do especially in light of the escalating situation with Iran, the legal challenges to the Muslim ban, the Yemen raid fiasco, the damaging of relations with Mexico and Australia, the renewed Russian attacks on the Ukraine. Problems with China seem in the offing. Any other foreign policy/security disasters I’ve missed?
artem1s
@? Martin:
and there is the lesson for the day in the conundrum of rape culture and victim blaming. We’ve been trying to explain this for fucking ever. The solution to rape is DON’T FUCKING RAPE. The solution to the GOP being Fascist, racists, misogynistic assholes is DON’T BE FASCIST, RACISTS, MISOGYNISTIC ASSHOLES. Why in the name of the FSM should Dems or any sane human being be even considering de-escalating? They have no position to de-escalate from. That’s why it has always been up to the GOP to do it.
polyorchnid octopunch
@? Martin: This makes me think of something I remember from Michael Herr’s book Dispatches, where he talked about the willingness of the officer corps to continue to feed units into battles they could not win on the basis of, as he put it, completely fictional kill ratios.
I think we can say these folks are deeply deeply racist, as well as bigoted, and their racism is causing them to overestimate US capabilities and underestimate the capabilities and resolve of the folks they’re attacking.
TenguPhule
@? Martin: No Quarter or Mercy to the enemy. Because they will give none to you.
liberal
@Major Major Major Major: Americans for Democratic Action most recently gave Tim Ryan an 80% rating. Not terrible, but not particularly liberal.
TenguPhule
@tobie: Fiscal currency fights with Japan and Germany respectively.
Mnemosyne
@? Martin:
I would prefer not to be beaten or killed by police when standing up for other people’s civil rights, but since I’m a middle-aged white woman, it could shock some sense into people in the mushy middle, so I’m prepared.
TenguPhule
@GregB: No matter which side wins, the libertarians are in for the long drop. They just don’t realize it yet, because they’re idiots.
Chip Daniels
What we need to keep hammering on, again and again and again, is that it is the Trumpians who have nothing to offer except identity politics.
They have no coherent economic policy.
No coherent foreign policy.
All they have is White Male Christian identity to offer.
This underlies every single thing they do and say.
They are the ones who need to do some “soul searching” and discard identity politics and move to the center.
liberal
DOG O/T: Does anyone know about fatty tumors in puppies?
Our goldendoodle is 11 months old. There’s tissue outside her rib case, behind her shoulder blade, that I thought was muscle, but I just noticed there’s no matching tissue on the left side of her body.
I know dogs get these things often, but I’m used to it being a much older dog. Also, this thing is kind of long, and has the consistency of muscle; seems not as hard as the benign fatty tumors my childhood dog had. (Though memory might not serve…that was a hell of a long time ago.)
burnspbesq
@Seanly:
It’s time for us to get serious about outing and handing over the 17 white assholes who show up at every peaceful protest and start breaking shit. They are a serious problem for progressive causes.
Major Major Major Major
@liberal: take it up with Tim Ryan and the people who decided he was the progressive champion democrats needed.
cmorenc
@dedc79:
Actually, what Kelly is referring to would make for a far more effective barrier than a physical concrete/steel/barbed wire wall. It’s much harder to circumvent contemporaneous detection via infrared and seismic sensors and drones flying overhead than it is to engineer a tunnel under or ladder over a physical wall. In either case, the key supplemental ingredient is funding enough extra border officers, helicopters, and other vehicles to respond with sufficient rapidity to head off crossers before they get very far into the US.
True, I have begged the question here about whether any sort of seamless Rio Grande-to-Pacific “wall”, physical or electronic, is a worthwhile notion, as opposed to say, ending the war on drugs which is what makes drug-running profitable and fuels the small segment of the non-documented population responsible for most of the violence.
tobie
@TenguPhule: Ah, yes, forgot that one. Thanks for the reminder.
Major Major Major Major
@burnspbesq: what are you talking about? nothing says “we are reasonable people whose opinions should be respected, not like this violent Nazi fuckstick” like breaking every window at Wells Fargo, destroying every ATM at Bank of America, and spraypainting both.
les
@? Martin:
How ’bout this–when Bannon is no longer a white supremacist? This may be the dumbest statement of the week. And you know your competition with the short fingers, right?
Or is this just a standard Bobo moment I’m misunderstanding? Oh wait, those are dumb too.
Chip Daniels
@burnspbesq:
The same way the guys who murdered abortion doctors caused problems for the anti-abortion movement, or the Bundy gang cause problems for the Sagebrush Rebellion movement?
Sorry, maybe its the mood I’m in, but I’m out of patience for the “lets be civil” stuff.
The other side thrives on bomb-throwers of the rhetorical and literal variety, without ever suffering for it.
The people who clutch pearls over the “but the black bloc” are people who are looking for an excuse anyway.
? Martin
@Mnemosyne:
Right. But one of the things I did as a student was to model out mathematically, how mutually assured destruction works. The challenge is this – if you assume bad faith on the part of your opponent (as the GOP does as part of a long propaganda campaign by folks like Limbaugh/Hannity, etc.) and a moral conviction on your side that you are protecting the core essence of civilization, and the other side assumes the same (which dems generally didn’t, but now absolutely assume bad faith after obstruction of Obama’s agenda, delegitimizing him, blocking Garland, lying about the 2016 election, etc.) and neither side feels they can back down, then both sides is forced to escalate.
I’m not trying to sway how people respond to this, rather to point out that given the responses I see, which is increasing calcification of position and proclamations of bad faith on the part of the other party – with no identifiable intermediary group to mediate these positions, the inevitable outcome is conflict. While we didn’t get into a nuclear war with the USSR, we did get into countless proxy wars that drove us right up to that point. The only group that can deescalate this is congressional republicans by opposing Trump, but they are still being driven by their right flank, and the fear of being primaried keeps them in their lane.
So, based on the positions that it appears both sides have been forced into and cannot retreat from, I see no possible outlet other than violence – something that at some point will shake one group or the other out of their positions and either accept backing down, or more likely bring elements from both sides into a 3rd group with an orthogonal set of interests that are able to deescalate things.
Major Major Major Major
@Chip Daniels: so you’re okay with the part where this is allowing Milo to splatter himself all over the news and get profiled by CNN?
Mnemosyne
@burnspbesq:
My proposal last night to circumvent the anarcho-kiddies was to hold all Bay Area protests at high noon (so they can’t break shit under cover of darkness) and mobilize the Pink Hat Squad (because the presence of large numbers of middle-aged women and children seems to squelch their fervor a bit).
The Women’s March in Oakland didnt have any problems, so let’s try and replicate those conditions as much as possible.
Also provide the marchers with cans of Silly String to mark any Black Bloc-ers who do try to show up.
SatanicPanic
@? Martin: This is the question I’ve had, and it concerns most California politicians. Who’s going to be the person who tells Kamala Harris, or Kevin deLeon, or Xavier Beccerra they should tone it down? Not me. Not only are their constituents angry and upset, they’re personally going to targets of white nationalism. How do they back down? I don’t think they do. So something is going to happen. Not sure what.
Annie
@waysel:
Mine always do.
philadelphialawyer
I would not hesitate to call Bannon and Trump straight up fascists. That is the hot button word, more so than racist or white suprematist.
I would call Trump’s Su Ct pick a fascist too. After all, he was the president of a self styled fascist club.
Tar them all with the F word. They are fascists. We need to wake people up. I really don’t give a fuck if the word fascist has been overused on the left before. If Bush and Romney and Reagan were called fascists, when they really were just some other kind of reactionary authoritarians. Or whatever. NOW, we are dealing with straight up fascists. The word fits. Fuck them if they don’t like it. Make them defend themselves against the allegation. Make them show how everything they are doing does NOT fit in with the fascist label and definition.
Everyone associated with this Administration is either a fascist or a fascist fellow traveler. The GOP in Congress, and the States and localities, and its pundocracy, radio clowns, and so on, are all fascist enablers, at best, unless they can show otherwise.
Every speech, every interview, every time a D gets up in the House, the Senate, a State house, a local body, wherever, and speaks, drop F bombs on them.
Fuck them all. Everyone one of them.
Gin & Tonic
@Chip Daniels: What about if it’s completely counter-productive? If that Milo asshole had flown into Berkeley, shot his mouth off in front of 100 like-minded assholes in a room and left the next day, there’d be 101 assholes who knew it took place. Instead people riot, shut down his venue, and the next day he’s on CNN talking to millions. It is *precisely* what he wants. You’re handing him publicity on a silver platter.
JordanRules
Texas high school students make Nazi salute and shout ‘Hail Trump’ in senior class photos
Scary.
Corner Stone
@? Martin:
Using geometric logic?
burnspbesq
@efgoldman:
He could get part of the way there by instructing Treasury to modify the regulations under Internal Revenue Code Section 501(c)(3), but to go all the way he has to get Congress to amend the Code itself.
Peale
@burnspbesq: I think we need a march ‘In appreciation of the Black Boc”. We can promise to give them an award. Then after they receive our applause, we take them out back and beat them silly.
Teddys Person
@liberal: My 9 year old goldendoodle has a few, and I talk to my vet about them at every visit. She feels them and notes her findings/opinion. They’ve been biopsied with a needle and greasy fat came out (the vet showed me). One concerned the vet so they took a piece and sent to to a lab and it came back benign. Teddy was 5 when the first one appeared, and I had it removed. Now he has a few more, and I’m thinking of have one removed that’s in his front leg “arm pit.” I don’t want it to cause mobility problems as he ages and think surgery would be easier while he’s healthy.
Not much concrete information here and my only advice is to talk to a vet. My experience is that, while the vet can’t promise anything, mine have been able to tell me what’s up by just feeling them (but I did have biopsies to back it up.)
Mnemosyne
@? Martin:
I’m not denying that there will be violence. It’s going to be the Civil Rights Movement all over again. American citizens are going to be beaten and teargassed and even killed for demanding civil rights.
But sometimes you have to accept violence against yourself as the price you pay for progress. Ask John Lewis if he thinks the multiple beatings he endured were worth it.
Please note that I am not advocating violence by liberals. That would get us into a nasty cycle like Northern Ireland. But we do have to accept that conservatives are going to act violently towards us and prepare ourselves for nonviolence in return.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@cmorenc: It’s hard to believe the Trumpitariate will happy with anything short of an actual wall that looks like an American version of the Great Wall of China. Electronic and surveillance barrier sounds far to left coast elite for these folks.This sounds more Trump admin confusion and this is what the DoD would prefer to do.
JordanRules
@Major Major Major Major: CNN is part of the problem too.
montanareddog
Wasn’t Grumpy Trumpy’s boss in the Navy? I think Nancy mis-spoke and that she meant to say he is a white rum supremacist
Peale
@Corner Stone: Geothermal Nuclear Logic. There was quite a bit of depth to that work.
Major Major Major Major
@JordanRules: you go to war with the media you have, not the media you want.
1,000 Flouncing Lurkers (was fidelioscabinet)
@MikeHoncho: No. I know quite a few people whose primary contact with the internet is Facebook who couldn’t tell you what or who Breitbart was and have no clue who Steve Bannon is, other than, at this point some guy who works for the President–maybe. Internet news (or propaganda) sites are a closed book to a lot of people who are getting their evening news from CNN, and as for those who were getting it from Fox–why on earth would anyone in Murdochland point that out?
So hearing the House minority leader say so out loud is going to be a shock. Their reaction will depend on how much corroboration she gets from outside leftist circles. The appearance of the Time cover and article makes it easier to sell, which leads me to believe this wasn’t a spur-of-the-moment thing for her, which should surprise no one who has watched Ms. Pelosi in action..
Peale
@Major Major Major Major: Yep. Now if they would just post enough of his twitter feed and the headlines of his stories while they ran the profile, they might see the point.
dedc79
@cmorenc: You may well be right, but “transparent” is an odd descriptor even for the type of virtual wall you describe.
ArchTeryx
Very slow thanks to thread jumping, but wanted to let folks know I based on what I am hearing I actually have a little bit of hope, just a bit, that maybe my time hasn’t yet come despite the new Crohn’s diagnosis. Sounds like despite that initial lockstep vote, that Republicans are getting cold feet about actually repealing the law openly, and the longer they go without repealing it, the better chance I and everyone like me have to stay aboard our lifeboats.
Chip Daniels
@Gin & Tonic:
If Milo gets a reputation as a guy who invites trouble everywhere he speaks, colleges and groups are going to be extra-wary about inviting him, and demand added insurance provisions, and many will just decide to skip it altogether.
And anyone who says “wow, I was going to hate on Milo, but since those guys torched a car, I think maybe he’s right all along” are full of shit.
IOW, its the latest iteration of “but her emails”, where people glom on to a weak excuse to do what they wanted to do in the first place.
NotMax
@JordanRules
Generation SS.
les
@? Martin:
So you’re just lecturing because you enjoy it? Maybe label your posts so we can ignore them. But I’ll tell you–you generally come off like Bobo–“oh all the incivility, if you dems would just agree with the reps we could all be happy.” And fuck that. Reps have told us what they want–go back to the country of the Fabulous Founders, with all power and wealth in the hands of white male property owners. And they’ve told us they’re willing to do whatever it takes. So unless you have a solution, you might quit long expostulations on the fucking obvious.
burnspbesq
@efgoldman:
And Roger Goodell could show up at a Pats fans tailgate on Sunday. About equally likely.
Major Major Major Major
@Peale: but they’re not covering him critically, so it’s bad to give them any reason to cover him at all. Just ignore him.
@Chip Daniels: yes. Clearly what I want is Nazis on every corner. Do you actually know any of the people you’re pigeon-holing personally?
ETA: sorry, I see what you’re saying now, I totally misread.
Chip Daniels
@Mnemosyne:
Yes.
Remember, a self-described Leninist sits as the second most powerful man in the world, and has stated he wants to burn it all down.
We need to take him seriously.
They don’t want us to meet them half way, they don’t want us to compromise on half aloaf.
As has been demonstrated many times, they see us as fundamentally illegitimate Americans.
We personally, are not real American citizens whose needs and concerns are worth engaging and compromising with.
They see us as a malevolent force to be confronted and destroyed.
burnspbesq
@Peale:
I am intrigued by your ideas etc.
zhena gogolia
@ArchTeryx:
Hang in there!
Jeffro
@Yarrow:
Should be interesting, because not only did Walnuts call the Aussie PM to apologize today, he also sent a letter to Trumpov asking for the US to provide “lethal” assistance to the Ukrainians in repelling Russia’s assault on that country. Good times!
JordanRules
@Major Major Major Major: True, but I think it’s okay to signal boost that part repeatedly because it is a huge problem that most believe helped get us here.
I do think there are good ways to deal with the agitators at these peaceful protests and I think we’ll get more sophisticated as it becomes part of the long game.
Steve in the ATL
@liberal: we’ve had a few golden retrievers with those fatty deposits. They are harmless. Focus your worry on the shitshow that is our dying republic rather than on this!
liberal
@Teddys Person: Thanks.
Corner Stone
@Major Major Major Major:
You raise an interesting philosophical dilemma. What if the Nazis on every corner were *also* operating food trucks? Maybe meat on a stick, maybe taco trucks, maybe a good slice, maybe flavored shaved ice? Now whaddayado?
Major Major Major Major
@JordanRules: I know a number of people personally who are very happy there was a riot and wish they had been there to help break bank windows. We aren’t just talking about a handful of people, we need to start making it clear that this is not a legitimate course of action.
Jeffro
@Keith G: @MCA1: Yes and yes.
What I don’t think it will do is force Bannon out completely – Trump won’t have a thought in his head without Bannon whispering in his ear. But Congress might just find its collective balls well enough to pull Bannon off the NSC.
Chip Daniels
@Major Major Major Major:
We tried ignoring people like Bannon and Milo.
They refuse to be ignored. They will rachet up their tactics and rhetoric until they get coverage, any coverage.
We’ve seen this before with radical revolutionary movements. Once they have a seat at the table of power, they have the ability to drive the dialogue, not us.
TriassicSands
From Wikipedia:
I’m still trying to figure out how Trump resolves the obvious conflict between Bannon and Jared Kushner who is an orthodox Jew. I haven’t seen anything about Kushner’s response to Trump snubbing the Jews in his Holocaust Day speech.
I have read stories of how highly Trump values Kushner and relies on his advice. Yet, Trump’s early promotion of Bannon to permanent status on the NSC would seem to be a slap in the face for Kushner.
Has anyone read or heard anything about Kushner versus Bannon?
liberal
@Steve in the ATL: Believe me, I’ve focussed most everything on the shitshow.
Major Major Major Major
@Corner Stone: well, I certainly wouldn’t eat there, and I would have no problem if somebody were to fill the truck with dead rats at night and call the health inspectors.
trollhattan
I {heart} Nancy SMASH!
Also, too, Pat Oliphant has come out of retirement, if briefly, to address You Know Who and his Nazi sidekick.
Uncle Ebeneezer
@BlueDWarrior: The more we call out White Supremacists the more, over time, society will start to accept the framing we use. We’ve seen it happen in the opposite direction with bullshit claims like calling someone “White” is somehow Reverse Racist TM. It can also work in the right direction. Alot of things that weren’t widely considered LGBTQ-phobic just a decade or so ago, now is obviously so to all but the most deplorable homophobes. Bannon IS a White Supremacist (so is Trump for that matter) and so is the core of the Republican Party. We should emphasize that at every opportunity.
On a related note, Rev Dr William Barber II spoke on this (general) topic at Occidental College the other night (starts at 1:15:30.) All “God Fearing, Christian” Republicans and Libertarians need to be forced to confront this stuff.
Major Major Major Major
@Chip Daniels: ‘ratchet up their tactics’? He rented a college auditorium for a speech that a bunch of pasty losers were going to see.
Millard Filmore
@burnspbesq:
Get your water bottle out and soak them. The rioters will get real cold and go home. Maybe put some food coloring in the water to make it harder for them to hide.
liberal
@Chip Daniels: I’m not worried about Bannon driving a dialogue. I’m worried about him driving an attack on a Chinese naval ship or installation.
Trump and Bannon are clear and present dangers to our nation. Not sure about Kushner.
burnspbesq
@Corner Stone:
Food trucks on every corner, selling Spam sandwiches on Wonder Bread with French’s mustard and Budweiser. Real American Food!
With all due respect, fuck no.
liberal
@Jeffro:
Sweet. Maybe we can really hit it and get involved in a war with China and a war with Russia, simultaneously.
TenguPhule
@Mnemosyne: I believe that the age old rule is going to have to be applied this time. Tis better to give then receive.
Because passive non-violence against facist brownshirts gets you a one-way trip to ovens and gas chambers.
JordanRules
@Major Major Major Major: How can I help get this message across?
I haven’t witnessed it at any protests I’ve been to. I don’t know anybody cosigning this message and I’m not sure how to reach these folks.
liberal
@Chip Daniels: IMHO it’s too soon for violence, but I don’t think it’s too soon for developing structures that could be used if things turned violent. Not that I’d make that the highest priority right now.
TenguPhule
@burnspbesq: Yeah, spam only belongs in rice musubis. Never bread.
hovercraft
@polyorchnid octopunch:
This is kind of like “peak wingnut”, I know it’s bad, I knew it was going to be bad, but somehow they keep actually being worse than my very, very, very low expectations. Yes, I think that people who give the Trumpenfuror get the heave ho, he still thinks that he’s on the apprentice. Only yes men and women will be tolerated. WASFS
rikyrah
@TriassicSands:
Kushner is a Slave Catcher. Period.
Immanentize
@Major Major Major Major: M4 — I agree with you, but this is always the trouble with public movements and why they are so fiercely suppressed in repressive regimes. What starts off as “help immigrants” can end up with “kill bankers.” It really can’t be stopped, entirely, but it can be mitigated by the ways described above. I worry deeply about the provocateur in marches — but the themed march seems to help — Women’s March, March for Science, etc. And organizers must try to isolate the really angry. People have a real right to be angry, but they need to be in their own space — think MLK and Stokely Carmichael. Then, they can be useful to each other….
Major Major Major Major
@JordanRules: I don’t know. Every time I bring it up people call me a Nazi enabler, out-of-touch libertarian, or worse.
Millard Filmore
@efgoldman:
Not a good idea in California. YOU will go to jail. There are better ways to deal with this problem than revenge porn.
Immanentize
@rikyrah:
I love it every time you write that — in fact, I think I will copy it again!
liberal
@Immanentize:
If it started and ended with “kill bankers,” I’m good with that.
TenguPhule
@? Martin: Or one side or the other gets wiped out. You missed that one. And if a lot of people must die, I want them to be on the other side of the ideological divide.
Failing that, a jointly led invasion from Canada to save us from ourselves.
Chip Daniels
One of the reasons actual Nazis and Klansmen rarely have public marches is their well justified fear of riots.
If we liberals passively smiled and tut-tutted about how we disagree-with-them-but-fight-to-the-death-for-their-right etc., there would be marches all the time.
Again, we are long past the time to confidently ignore these guys and assume they will burn themselves out.
There is a very real and potent group of people in America who want this. And they are gaining power, not losing it.
Tazj
I’m so glad Nancy Pelosi said this, she spoke the truth. The more I read about what Bannon believes the more frightened I get. The man is dangerous.
A van in front of my car in the line at Tim Hortons had writing all over it, like the writing you might see when someone gets married or is going to a Homecoming game. The writing said “Liberals stop whining, Trump is the president now get used to it! and of course, Trump will make America great again!” I think Trump’s incompetence and the protests are getting to them.
Jeffro
@burnspbesq:
Wait…does that include if it’s one of the 12 other, non-standard varieties of SPAM? Because “lite Spam” is almost actually good for you, and “bacon Spam” gives me a tingle up my leg (with apologies to Tweety)
Major Major Major Major
@Chip Daniels: so we should smash up a couple banks that aren’t located near their speaking engagement?
ETA: that’s what happened during the Occupy marches in Oakland too
TenguPhule
@? Martin: Also, nobody forced the Republicans to become hard-on facists. They chose that route with eyes wide open and walked it of their own free will.
Decisions have consequences. Germany learned it the hard way. Republicans will as well.
TenguPhule
@liberal: You may change your mind by the end of week 4.
Hoodie
@TriassicSands: By Trump logic, you take inputs from a nazi and a Jew and end up with something in between. Trump thinks like Homer Simpson.
SatanicPanic
@Major Major Major Major:
We’re being ruled by pasty losers. It’s long past time to think that mocking them or ignoring them is a good idea.
liberal
@TenguPhule: Yeah, that’s why it might be a good idea to put structures in place.
? Martin
@Corner Stone: There’s two components. Basically, it’s a situation of pareto inferior equilibrium. Basically, a state where you can’t make anything better without making other things unacceptably worse. These are all soft measures here – governance, adherence to ideology, norms of behavior, etc. so it’s hardly an exact model. But in the cold war you had similar things – influence over governments, economic power, freedom within governments, and so on.
Prior to Trump we didn’t have equilibrium. Republicans were near that state, but Democrats still had room to operate to keep government working by giving up some ideological position, or real political power – California giving up gerrymandering, which Democrats could have wielded to lock up more D seats in the House, for example. But with Trump, all of the concerns of bad faith harbored by the left of the right have ALL come to pass. The Dems are now as rigidly constrained as the GOP is. Possibly moreso. That’s not to say that either side is acting in bad faith, or not in their own interests, rather that both sides feel that they have given up as much territory as they can possibly bear to give up.
This is a kind of Nash equilibrium with violence (nuclear war in one case, political violence in another) as the consequence to be avoided. That was possible in a two state relationship with the US president and the premiere of the USSR both able to contain their respective empires from spilling over. But the GOP and the Dems don’t have that kind of control. The GOP can’t prevent a mass shooting in Quebec or an arson in Texas, nor can the Dems should these protests continue to escalate in size and immediacy. That is, even though an inferior state can be stable, it can only really be stable with a very limited number of agents. Politics has thousands or millions of agents. Social norms against violence hold them in check, but it’s becoming increasingly clear that those norms are no longer sufficiently powerful against the new sense of violation of other norms. Violence will be an increasingly attractive option given that all other options are being stripped away (minority power in Congress, the power of popular vote, even the power of opinion polling).
The cold war dynamic was driven by two main facts and two associated assumptions (which could not be measured):
1) that each party believed they would never initiate a war, but assumed the other party might
2) that each party knew the size of their arsenal but assumed the other party’s arsenal was larger than they could measure
Since each side assumed they would be on the defensive, they would need (and therefore could justify) more nukes than the other side as the power of initiative would render some defensive nukes useless. You’re seeing that being gamed out now with the filibuster and other legislative rules. You’re seeing that being gamed out over voting rights and gerrymandering. And because we’re entering a period where we do not have common facts, each side is assuming the worst from the other. It’s a very similar dynamic.
Teddys Person
@TriassicSands: To Trump, “trusted adviser” is the person who most recently stroked his ego. He’s the smartest, bestest person in the room. I saw something about a Democrat talking about Trump, and he kept saying President Bannon, err I mean Trump, did so and so. I think the way to get rid of anyone in the Trump inner circle is get people to think that person is calling the shots rather than Trump.
Millard Filmore
@Uncle Ebeneezer:
Not sure how this fits in, but last year when pollsters called me and ended with wanting to know my ethnicity, I would proudly say “Honky!”
stinger
@ArchTeryx: Really, really, really hoping that’s the case for you.
Lizzy L
A friend of mine has this to say about the Berkeley protests:
“Dear anarchists, we will let you know if things degenerate to the point that your tactics make sense and are necessary. But in the meantime, you are making things worse, and creating the appearance of the conditions that fuel the regime’s propaganda and that could lead to draconian and repressive policies, encourage others to see violence as an option, and actually are bringing the conditions Bannon wants to create into being. You are undermining the movement, the peaceful nonviolent movement, that is unfolding everywhere and everyday. Your tactics and actions are not welcome. Thank you.”
I agree with this. I also object to Milo Yiannopoulos — I don’t believe I or anyone is somehow obligated to provide a forum for someone whose politics will lead at best to my disenfranchisement and at worst to my death. You want to speak? Rent a hall, dude. Sell tickets. Free speech for Nazis? Fuck no. History has shown us — someone always pays. Always.
Aleta
Just called one of my senator’s local offices. It was answered right away. The aide didn’t ask for name, address or phone, just listened to me. I said I thank the senator for the votes that have represented all of our residents, not just a few. I thanked the sen. for a recent vote that does this. I said I have strong interest in education and asked for a no vote on Betsy D., who is not qualified to protect our education system. I said I am also asking for a no vote on Scott Pruitt for EPA. His actions as AG of OK have proved he does not want to to protect the environment in his own state. He is even suing the EPA for doing their job, and he should not lead the EPA.
The aide said she would let the senator know. I’ve switched from emails to phone calls to the state offices, since a former Congressional aide wrote that those messages have the most chance of being reported to the senator. (He said that emailed form letters or cards have the least chance of being reported.)
After being wicked down, this surprisingly calmed my anxiety, and was done in 5 minutes.
JordanRules
@Lizzy L: Well said by you and your friend!!
Mnemosyne
@Major Major Major Major:
Yes, and those people are part of the problem.
The only thing that works to deter Nazis and other fascist assholes is to rally a (peaceful!) crowd against them that vastly outnumbers them and makes it very, very clear that they are the minority.
With Milo, I think having a large mixed-race crowd of women in pink hats mocking him would actually have more effect than on most people, because he’s a really creepy misogynist.
Being opposed by violent men like the Black Bloc assholes makes Milo feel like he’s a Big Deal. Being mocked by hundreds or even a thousand women in pink hats is the only thing that would actually wound him.
chopper
@danielx:
if only philip seymour hoffman was still around, he’d be perfect for the role.
les
@Lizzy L:
Except that ” creating the appearance of the conditions that fuel the regime’s propaganda and that could lead to draconian and repressive policies” is, ya know, what anarchists want, this could be really helpful.
Mnemosyne
@TenguPhule:
We’re not there yet. We still have (purportedly) free elections, which means we can still affect public opinion and voting.
But if they declare martial law and suspend elections, all bets are off.
Mnemosyne
@rikyrah:
Use his own peoples’ name for him: kapo. The Jews who collaborated with the Nazis to save their own hides.
Aleta
@ArchTeryx: It’s good to know that. My niece is waiting for a new treatment for her condition to come along. I hope this happens soon for you and others. (A former in-law and a friend both have Crohn’s too.) From your post I realize I need to mention real people the next time I call a rep.
TenguPhule
@? Martin: Wrong. The Dynamic is the Rs are playing complete across the board blitz offensives not seen since Germany marched into Poland.
People are still trying to get the Ds to wake up and realize that yes, the other side has gone full Facist and are only sticking to “legal” means for now because they don’t have to resort to stormtroopers on the coloreds and other non-Rs just yet. When enough Ds realize this truth, then things start getting more equal.
Until then, its forlorn hopes and other delaying actions to buy time.
TenguPhule
@Mnemosyne: They’re not going to suspend elections if they’re smart. Just ensure that their side always wins the elections in the right areas that count. Endless facist rule, disguised as democracy by controlling the ballot counters.
And short of abducting and waterboarding the appropriate parties, nobody will ever get proof.
Chip Daniels
@Major Major Major Major:
I’m not advocating violence, actually.
I’m just not as worked up about our fringe elements because they are well, fringe.
Whereas the rightwing fringe group now has their man whispering commands into the ear of the man with control of the nuclear launch codes.
Chip Daniels
@TenguPhule:
Trump won by using asymetrical tactics; Rubio/Cruz/Perry were wanting to play conventional rules, while Trump smashed all the norms and went right up to the very edge of legality.
Thats what we are seeing now, with the Senate obstruction of Obama, Trump’s EOs and Bannon on the NSC; they do everything short of actual provable lawbreaking, relying on us saps to obey the traditional norms.
J R in WV
@waysel:
The site doesn’t run as quickly as a retail site, it takes everything a few minutes to pass through WordPress central. After all, WP has to parse through every comment for the dirty words, and the commercial spam words, and the pharma words, and put those comments in moderation.
Fuck You Word Press appears to pass the filters, kinda. Don’t feel bad, we all get our share of kicks and licks from Word Press.
? Martin
@TenguPhule:
My analysis doesn’t refer to politicians, but the populace. I think 3-4 million people marching against this president, along with daily spontaneous protests of large size, suggests that Ds realize this truth.
Chet Murthy
@? Martin:
We don’t back down. Ever. If there’s one thing we know from Cheeto Bandito’s history, it is that you don’t negotiate with him, b/c you WILL LOSE. Look at all the banks. They shoulda foreclosed on his ass, taken their losses, and moved on. Instead, they tried to negotiated with him, got taken to the cleaners anyway.
100% resistance to Every. Single. Thing. he does and proposes. If he proposes something that seems decent, we REJECT it and propose our own thing that is BETTER.
Maybe after the Rs impeach him, we start to relent — I can’t say, b/c even though the Rs are still all prion-disease-victims (Charlie Pierce is 100% right), I’m not a politician. But UNTIL the Rs impeach him, no cooperation, no cover, no bipartisanship. None.
I’m sorry Sen. Manchin, but the safety of the Republic is more important than your job, and it’s probably necessary to sacrifice the latter, to help ensure the former. If it’s any consolation, Max Cleland feels for you.
? Martin
@Chet Murthy: Just want to let you know that conservatives feel exactly the same way. Neither side can back down, or find compromise. That’s a precursor to a civil war.
Chet Murthy
@Chip Daniels: Ehhhh …. I think burnspbesq@ does have a point. The -one- thing we have, that the Rethugs don’t have, is that we represent civil society and decency. That’s an important weapon, and we shouldn’t allow the black bloc to give it up.
There may come a day, when it’s civil war. But the goal should be to fix this situation, before that day comes, right? And we shouldn’t give up a critical weapon (that we are the civil, peaceful ones) before absolutely necessary.
That said, there is nothing uncivil or peaceful about using every legislative and procedural trick in the book to delay and defund him.
Honestly, I think the Dems should think seriously about debt ceiling hostage-taking. Make the Rs own it. Make them own it.
Civility in politics has NOTHING to do with civil society.
Chet Murthy
@? Martin: In MAD, it is assumed that both parties have something to lose by continuing with escalation. Please tell me what the Rs have to lose by escalating. I’ll wait …..
The Moar You Know
@? Martin: I don’t think anyone here is under the impression that the fascists feel any differently. So civil war it is. That’s fine. Sometimes politics stops being the art of the possible and just starts being ugly. We’ve been here before.
Chet Murthy
@SatanicPanic: Sooner or later, the owners call their dogs to heel. B/c the owners know that this strife will wreck the economy, and they own the economy.
And sure, they don’t like brown (and black/yellow/jew) people, but hey, they never have to see ’em.
The more certain and sure we can make it, that the only way the confrontation gets defused, is by calling off the R dogs, the sooner this ends, and we get back to your regular daily “poor people get eviscerated, but without loudspeakers, white sheets, and nuclear confrontation in the South China Sea”. Y’know, normal.
[Sorry, I’m being cynical, but like a lotta people, I’d trade Trump for Bush II in a heartbeat. Even though we’d Darth Cheney. B/c the man was merely evil, not bugfuck nuts.]
Chip Daniels
Before we become too fearful I think we need to also realize, that between the staid Senate norms and actual shooting civil war, stands a long line of escalation.
We saw this in the Civil Rights movement where there was this escalation of legal cat and mouse battles, of court cases, ballot measures, legislative battles, and even Governor Wallace standing in the doorway defying a Federal order.
We also need to get comfortable with this. Its been said that the American public has become infantilized by our astonishing level of stability, to where we are unwilling to tolerate political trauma like Presidents being impeached or resigning, elected officials being arraigned or investigated.
We saw this in Ford’s pardon of Nixon, the Dems refusal to investigate Bush/Cheney for war crimes, the whole “We can’t handle the truth” type of thinking.
Trump wouldn’t hesitate to arrest and imprison HRC if he thought it was beneficial to him. Lets get prepared for that level of unprecedented asymmetrical lawfare.
waysel
@J R in WV: I get an actual five minute countdown clock in parentheses near the ‘request deletion’ button.. Is this the fabled ‘moderation’ that people talk about?
? Martin
@Chet Murthy: No, in MAD escalation wasn’t the measure, but potential for destruction. There was plenty of escalation/deescalation. Vietnam was an escalation. But we held back from nuclear violence.
The GOP is unpopular. They lost the popular vote both for the President and Congress. Their policies are unpopular. They know they are in a tenuous position and that there’s a limit to how well they can contain that damage through gerrymandering and vote suppression. At the same time, they have to protect against primary challenges. They do care about Russian involvement. They have a lot to lose by accommodating Trump. They also have a lot to lose by not accommodating him. At some point one side may overpower the other.
les
@? Martin:
You keep trying to explain this like you’re the only one who realizes anything. Christ. Can you remember the 60’s? Civil Rights? Anti-Nam?
Tens if not hundreds of people were killed, by police and national guard and plain old thugs. Thousands were beaten, maced, attacked by dogs and humans, arrested, jailed.
Millions of white assholes stood on the sidelines and cheered, while the niggers and hippies and commies got what was coming to them.
Those people and their carefully nurtured spawn are Trump’s supporters. They will be happy, personally and through their hired help in the law enforcement community will be more than happy to do it all over again to get the pasty white christianist supremacy they deserve.
You don’t need a fucking advanced degree to predict violence. And you won’t avoid it by figuring out ways for liberals to back down. Because some of us aren’t fucking interested, any more now than then.
liberal
@? Martin:
The other thing to model is what happens when one side, call it Team D, repeatedly cooperates in an iterated prisoners dilemma when the other side, Team R, defects.
Chet Murthy
@? Martin: Martin@, I mean this in the nicest way I can, but this is David Brooks bothsiderism.
The Rs have enabled a literal fascist. The Dems? They wanna raise taxes a little. A little. Give poor people preventive medical care. Wow, the Rs have noplace to go. Wow. Oh, I forgot, the Rs want to ensure that young men like my high school classmate (in a small texas town) who is gay, don’t need to wait until they flee to California, to come out of the closet. For fear of being beaten to death (and just to be clear, I’m hetero male, and b/c I’m brown, knew better than to express visible interest in (white) women (who were the only ones in my friend group) — I got beaten up in phys ed for being gay). Wowsers, the Rs have noplace to go.
If that’s the definition of painting Rs into a corner, then I’m uninterested in compromise with them.
P.S. So y’know, if you’re here to tell us about how Dems gotta give up something, I got news for you. Ain’t happenin’.
liberal
@? Martin: But that’s, unfortunately, a likely possibility, because we have a presidential system rather than a parliamentary system.
The Founders fucked up.
liberal
@TenguPhule:
Krugman had a good summary of the situation in a preface to one of his books (maybe from 2003). He called the Republican Party a “revolutionary power,” borrowing a term from Kissinger. It means a group that boldly shatters norms, etc.
This fascist shit is simply the next step. But the overall picture is the same.
Chet Murthy
@? Martin:
Dude, what -planet- are you on? They’re governing as if they won by a landslide. No holding back, no compromise. And they’re assuming they can use gerrymandering and vote suppression forever. You don’t deter that with appeasement.
You’re delusional.
ETA: And sure, they’re afraid of their right wing. WE need to make them afraid of the left wing. Very, very afraid. One way, is to make it clear that we’re going to primary our own wavering legislators. So the Rs realize that we’re no longe rin appeasement mode.
SatanicPanic
@Chip Daniels: I’m not sure the line is as long as you’d think. It went from the election of Slobodon Milosevic to the end of Yugoslavia in just a few years. Trump might be that guy.
SatanicPanic
@Chet Murthy: I think you’re misunderstanding Martin
J R in WV
@? Martin:
So, Martin, very interesting story of being in school studying game theory. Where was this study going on? I took some management classes, and we went through some elementary game theory exercises, but you sound way more detailed, working at a much higher level than my “business school” classes in management.
We all had to ante up a dollar, so there was a real pot of money, $20 is a lot to college students, a whole parties amount of money, so people were taking it seriously, but you can only get so deep in a week or two of game theory. Enough to know it isn’t a game, it’s dead serious.
Which I already knew from reading Herman Kahn way back – how Mutually Assured Destruction became the political philosophy that saved the world from nuclear war. But Game Theory at that level is far removed from $20 pots of money in a business class.
wild-eyed socialist
@Origuy: Jesus! When I lived in Chesapeake Va, I voted at the River Walk Community Center. Upscale neighborhood, quiet. A fricking maze to drive around in. This murder should not have happened there.
Uncle Ebeneezer
@les:
And like 5 seconds later, I read this:
.
J R in WV
@ArchTeryx:
You know that lots of people with a Crones diagnosis have had good luck with getting a benign infection of intestinal worms, which gives one’s immune system something to work on other than your own organs?
I know this sounds gross, but it appears to work well for many people with immune system related intestinal problems. Google it.
schrodingers_cat
@Corner Stone: Game theory. Min-max equilibrium, Martin would prefer Nash equilibrium.
One flaw in this reasoning. Life is not game theory.
schrodingers_cat
@Chet Murthy: Actually, Martin is the Tom Friedman of Balloon Juice not Bobo.
Steeplejack
@waysel:
If you are seeing your comment on the screen with the five-minute edit timer, then you are not in moderation. Your comment has already posted successfully and everyone can see it. The timer is only for editing; it is not a countdown to some point after which your comment will become visible. It’s already visible.
If your comment goes into moderation, you get a message on screen to that effect after you press the “Post Comment” button. And then you (but only you) can see your comment on screen with an accompanying message that says “This comment is awaiting moderation.” When it is released from moderation that message goes away and everyone else can see the comment.
There are rare occasions when a comment will disappear, usually for reasons having to do with FYWP’s arcane spam rules. In that case your comment simply disappears. No message is given, and you cannot see the comment on the screen.
evodevo
@Gian: It’s because churches are tax-exempt – tax-exempt organizations are not allowed to campaign for specific candidates from the pulpit. The IRS is supposed to enforce that. Churches are allowed to discuss “issues”, but not endorse individuals. The right wingers routinely violate the ruling, and posture about it. The ACLU and Americans United for Separation of Church and State routinely call them out on it, and sometimes initiate law suits. It’s a bete noire for the religious right, and this is just another of Drumpf’s panders to them.
les
@schrodingers_cat:
He’s definitely got the boring repetition of irrelevance thing down. Now if he can just get a cab driver to confirm his theory…
waysel
@Steeplejack: Thanks. I assumed it was not visible to all until the timer stopped, which seemed insane, but what do I know about FYWP?
Lyrebird
@rikyrah: Thanks for sending that again. I mean posting. I finally read that he’s not going to try to actually bribe Toomey,
Smart way to get publicity. I’ve sent what letters I can, maybe I’ll give 3 bucks to this gutsy teacher to give away.
TenguPhule
@? Martin: Suggests Beliefs not in evidence. As others have stated, you’re not only wrong, but completely utterly through the mirror here. The Republicans aren’t shivering in fear, they’re trembling with EXCITEMENT.
Corner Stone
@schrodingers_cat: Well, thank goodness. Because I do think it’s time for some game theory, y’all.
J R in WV
@Aleta:
I called one of my senators, Shelly Moore Capito, a life long, raised by a Republican felon politicial, Republican, and at every one of her offices, I got an answering machine, and when I waited to leave my comment, It told me that voice mail was full.
Which is Republicanese for FUCK YOU Democratic constituent, with a Republican-branded privately-managed prison cattle prod.
Republicans are fascists. They want to rule the world, and smash our faces into their excrement. I’m not willing to do that.
Steeplejack
@waysel:
Well, the good news is you’re not special and you’re not being moderated!
Steeplejack (tablet)
@Steeplejack:
Oh, look, I’m seeing this message on my tablet, and on my computer it still has three minutes to go on the countdown timer. Shazam!
waysel
@Steeplejack (tablet): I’ll be dogged!
fuckwit
Anyone clutching their pearls can shove them right up their ass.
Vhh
@Jeffro: Aussie ambassdor, actually. Who was then invited to WH to meet the racist tramp and obvious anagram Reince for makeup sex. The good news here is that the Trumpies have now been forced to walk back nearly every thing they have done, with the exception of the crowd claims which were laughed off the planet. The ban wasn’t a ban, green card holders exempted, court cases galore they will lose, corporates pissed. ACA repeal dead in water, signup ads restored. Israeli settlements now opposed. Russian attacks in Ukraine condemned at UN. Backed off on Iran threats. Gag orders rescinded. For a big bully CEO who claims he always wins, pretty effing pathetic. Trump did get his name on lots of front pages, but it was next to words “falsely”, “lied”, “rage”, “rant”, and so on. Polls show a majority want Obama back. We are only two weeks in, and it is comedy gold (when it isn’t scary as hell). If we could guarantee continuing 100% fail and humiliation like this every day, it could be worth having it last thru 2018 elections to flip both houses and then let the GOPers twist while the corruption and treason are exposed in a stately impeachment and trial. But in the absence of certainty, I hope Trump steps on a major political rake in weeks or months so we keep the innocent body count down.