Remember how we were told the muslim ban only impacts a couple hundred people max? Good times:
More than 100,000 visas have been revoked as a result of President Trump’s ban on travel from seven predominantly Muslim countries, an attorney for the government asserted Friday in federal court in Alexandria, Va.
The number came out during a hearing in a lawsuit by two Yemeni brothers who arrived at Dulles International Airport last Saturday and were quickly put on a return flight to Ethiopia because of the new restrictions. While the government is working to resolve that case and return the brothers to the United States, lawyers at the hearing addressed the broader impact of the ban.
The 100,000 figure was immediately disputed by the State Department, which said the number of visas revoked was roughly 60,000. A spokeswoman said the revocations have no impact on the legal status of people already in the United States. If those people leave the United States, though, their visas will no longer be valid.
They will lie about everything.
Baud
I remember it as a couple of hundred people actually detained at airports.
But your general point still stands.
Darrin ZIliak (formerly glocksman)
Are you surprised?
All the bullshit over the last few months has had me busy making memes instead of just lifting them from Facebook.
Google Photo Album
NotMax
Norman, coordinate.
Mike J
District court judge Robard in Seattle just granted a TRO against Muslim ban.
Cacti
@Mike J:
Doesn’t that make Trump’s EO 0 for 6 in the Courts?
hovercraft
I just posted this in the last thread, but it could have been posted here.
Karen
Let’s see if the media either notices or reports on it. Trump and his Administration are to be given no benefit of the doubt. If they’re breathing they’re lying.
Major Major Major Major
Since they lie about everything I see no reason to believe that “the revocations have no impact on the legal status of people already in the United States.”
Yarrow
Posted this in the previous thread, but in case anyone missed it, the Executive Order says it affects every foreigner visiting the US, even tourists.
Who needs a tourist industry? Not someone who owns hotels.
EriktheRed
A bit O/T, but:
Remember that thing about investigating voter fraud?
japa21
Perhaps a lawyer can explain, but wouldn’t an arbitrary revocation of a visa go against the due process clause. I would assume, since i have no direct knowledge, that when a visa is issued it comes with an explanation of under what terms it can be revoked.
schrodingers_cat
This also impacts immigrant doctors serving in mostly rural areas. Iranian doctors make up the fourth largest group of non-US born doctors. So this should impact the precious WWC rural folkses where it really hurts.
? Martin
Yeah, I am so done with this. I have around 300 students, staff, faculty with visas or on PR status from one of those 7 countries. Some immigration visas (H1B, refugee, etc.) others non-immigration (F1, etc.) Have those 60K or 100K people been notified that their visa has been revoked? Sure, they’re still allowed to be here, but how the fuck are they supposed to know that they need to reapply? Has any consideration been given to the timing of this, such that individuals who need to reapply can be processed in time to travel?
Best case we’re facing a $12M financial hit next year due to this, unless we can find some way to replace these students should they not be able to continue to attend. Worst case, if we see the kind of fall off in interest in US universities that we saw after 9/11 when it became substantially harder to get a visa (mostly due to new policies and processes going in on very short notice), it could be closer to $50M. I can’t speak for others, but if I was admitted to degree programs in australia and germany and australia started pulling this stuff, I’d look a LOT harder at that german program just to reduce my risk to a process that was out of my control and seemingly being made up from one day to the next.
schrodingers_cat
My MIL was supposed to visit this spring. She is 75 and not a Muslin but we don’t want her to travel amidst uncertainty and bedlam that is the US airports, so her trip has been postponed to at least September.
Kay
@EriktheRed:
Thanks. I’m so glad. They’re incompetent. That White House should be kept far away from anything that requires specificity and attention to detail. I can’t even imagine what they would do to voting.
Thank God someone or something distracted them.
Turgidson
At this point it’s more surprising when they don’t lie.
schrodingers_cat
@japa21: I would think so, but I ar not a lawyer.
Chet Murthy
@japa21: IANAL, but my understanding is, the 14A guarantees due process to citizens and “persons”. And a non-citizen with a visa is not a “person” until they “pass customs”. I clearly recall a case where a permanent resident went overseas and upon landing on his return flight, was denied entry. Went to court, and I read that the reason was that even though he was on US soil, the legal definition of “person” was “after clearing customs”.
Now, I’ve also read that citizens have a presumptive right to due process, no matter where they are on the planet — hence the stink about extra-judicial killings of American citizens (aka “drone strikes against al-Awlaki”). And finally, I’ve read that there is a -law- (not part of the constitution) that grants holders of permanent visas a presumptive right of re-entry.
But IANAL, so could be wrong about all of this.
? Martin
@Major Major Major Major: Yeah, that’s a little tricky. For example, universities need to record students each term that are on a visa in order to document that they’re still in attendance and haven’t wandered off to commercial pilot school. So when we go to record a student that has had their visa revoked, what will the system tell us? That they’re undocumented? That they’re fine? I’m pretty sure it’ll say they’re undocumented, based on what we now know.
Tokyokie
@schrodingers_cat: The doctor who performed by heart bypass surgery was a Jewish Armenian immigrant from Iran. Like he’d have been the sort to join up with ISIS.
Brachiator
I was listening to a CBS radio news story this morning about California Republicans. They are 27 percent of registered voters (there’s that magic number again).
They LOVE what Trump is doing. Just love it. Especially on immigration (a couple of Mexican American Republicans were adamant about keeping illegal aliens out, because it is unfair that they jump the line ahead of everyone else).
The two biggest things they love about Trump?
They believe that he does what he says he will do.
He is honest.
Alternate universe.
? Martin
@Kay: Except that the President of the United States has declared that 3-5 million votes were cast illegally. That need to be reconciled one way or another. Either find the votes or admit that it was a lie. We can’t leave it in this unknown state.
Yarrow
@schrodingers_cat: We’ve recommended the same to non-US family. Sucks. :(
debbie
@Baud:
Oh, but it’s very important to detain all of them. You just know they were swarming to be a part of the Bowling Green Massacre.
Peale
I guess not being able to travel anywhere isn’t considered an impairment?
sharl
OT, dogged Kiwi business reporter Matt Nippert has found more interesting stuff on Citizen Thiel:
{Waves across the Pacific to secretive NZ National Party leadership}
Man, with Trump’s real life Godzilla act totally occupying the media, Thiel and his PR people have to be grateful that this news will likely attract little attention outside of NZ and certain business sectors. Comparing what Thiel earned in that NZ sweetheart government deal to what he donated to Trump’s campaign, that’s a pretty damn good ROI!
? Martin
@Brachiator: Well, not all. I just had a conversation with my republican neighbor who is absolutely aghast with what has happened this week. It was like I was talking to a completely different person. I’m still not quite sure what to make of it.
Chet Murthy
@Tokyokie: Well, to be scrupulously detailed, ISIS is Salafist. Al Quaeda too (uh, I think)?
Iranians are overwhelmingly Shia. And what do the Salafists wanna do to the Shia? Oh, right — kill ’em all. If Trump were -really- serious about ISIS (but still an unhinged nutjob wacko fool), Saudi would be on that list, and Iran would be OFF it.
He’s a fool.
P.S. Just to be clear: the -idea- of the list and its -implementation- are both bad. Bad and stupid from A to Z. What I’m saying in this comment is that EVEN IF we grant him that the list is a good idea, he’s got the wrong countries on the list, if his goal is to counter Salafist terrorism.
Major Major Major Major
@Brachiator: Well…
If they voted for him because of immigration and terrorism, which is why a lot of voters say they voted for him… he’s doing what he said he would do.
Jeffro
You know how some have said the way to (eventually) take down Trump is to show, like Berlusconi, that he simply sucked as a leader? Not even minimally competent? Only out to enrich himself and his friends?
Well, um, yeah. If the republic doesn’t break by 2018, I think we might be able to do that…
HermanNewticks
@? Martin: Easy. Make a brand new Democrat!
Baud
@debbie:
Too soon, Debbie.
Ian
@Baud:
You assume all people affected where flying to the US as it happened. That is your number for that (As I assume in good faith). The number of people affected not in midair surprises me only in how low the numbers are.
SatanicPanic
@Brachiator: True California conservatives are deeply weird. I don’t know how they think shrinking the federal government is going to benefit them. They are, after all, stuck in here with us.
cain
@schrodingers_cat:
I just came back from India, in December. My cousin just got married, and his wife is on an H1B, and he is on a student visa. I’m pretty sure that leaving will trigger an event and both will have to back to India. I think the impact on businesses will be pretty hard. I know my former employer, Intel’s CEO has said they would use Intel resources to help.
Nobody is safe from this. And for some reason people think that as long as they aren’t from those countries it isn’t a problem. Even citizens are not safe. This whole extreme vetting shit is also crazy on the face of it. Basically no potential immigrant can ever say anything against the government, or rather Trump. I’m sure you’re fine if you criticize democrats and Obama.
What I’m trying to tell people is that if the administration is allowed to get away with isolating one group of people based on some criteria, they can do that for anyone using the previous actions as justification. This isn’t about anti-muslim, because the administration can swing to anything if they can isolate one group. Nobody is safe. If they can discriminate on the basis of religion, then they can for ideology, color, it’s all fair game.
lollipopguild
The figures I found after a quick search said that 89 million people visited Florida in 2012 and 10 million were from overseas. If Florida lost all or most of their overseas visitors what would happen to their economy?
hilts
Der Spiegel magazine cover nails the insanity and brutality of Trump’s presidency
h/t http://www.politicususa.com/2017/02/03/germans-america-der-spiegel-cover.html
Roger Moore
@Yarrow:
This is the kind of thing you wind up with when political hacks write stuff and bypass the knowledgeable staff. They either don’t know or don’t care that details matter.
? Martin
Trump was lying about this as well.
I cannot stress enough how hard UC works across the system to protect free speech. It’s not perfect (UC Davis…), but there is a serious effort there systemwide.
hovercraft
@EriktheRed:
I read somewhere that Ryan and the rest of the congresscritters wanted no part of this, they didn’t want anyone digging too deep. I wonder why?
Baud
@Ian: No, I know more people are affected. I’m saying I remember the couple of hundred number in the context of people actually detained.
Brachiator
@hilts:
When even the Germans, with their history, tells you that Trump is a bad hombre, then you know the schnitzel has hit the fan.
Wag
I was in 6th grade when the Nixon presidency imploded. I was a geeky kid glued every night to the CBS news with uncle Walter. I remember the tsunami that built and built until Nixon resigned.
I’m feeling the same energy building now. It’ll take a few months, but I think it’s becoming more and more likely.
And I hope that my geeky 11 year old son who despises Trump even more than I do has the same amazing memories of watching Marine One take off, bearing a wreck of a former president away from the White House.
I just wish we had a VP as decent and humble as Ford to take Trump’s place.
jharp
“More than 100,000 visas have been revoked”
That can’t be good for business.
schrodingers_cat
@jharp: Not just business, this is pissing over a sterling reputation built over 300 years.
hovercraft
@? Martin:
His ego won’t let him leave it alone, the moron is talking to foreign leaders about his landslide and record breaking inauguration crowd. Does he not know that they not only have TV’s and know what’s going on in America, they also spy on us, friend and foe. I wish I could be in the room when one of them gets off the phone with him, what do they say? “That guy is even crazier and more delusional than I expected, and he has no fucking clue about anything.”
Ian
@Chet Murthy:
Close but not quite right. Isis is Salafist, Al-Qeuda is more Wahabiist. The distinction is slight, but they too can and have been motivated to kill each other over such little distinctions.
mai naem mobile
These stupid stupid people who get tourist dollars in rural red areas are in for a shock when they see a drop in their incomes. And the Scott Walkers of the world are going to not going to get as many high paying foreign students for colleges. And dumbass Ricky Scott can explain to his old fart constituents why their rural area foreign educated specialist doctor isn’t available because he had to go back home because his wife is stuck in Egypt or he’s stuck in Egypt himself.
Baud
@hovercraft: Whenever he tweets, people should reply with pics of the inauguration crowd.
? Martin
@SatanicPanic: Well, two dynamics come to mind:
1) The anti-tax jihad started here way the fuck before it caught on with the rest of the country. We’re mostly over it now, but there are some hangers-on. A fair number of those republicans gave up on that fight and changed their priorities, becoming democrats. Kansas may see some of that when all is said and done.
2) The neighboring school district is the most diverse in the country in terms of income. From billionaires at one end to non-english speaking illegals at the other. The result was a local government that was massively anti-spending to starve out the poor kids with the rich kids being propped up by private foundations that would funnel money to the local schools. To a certain extent, that’s their national attitude as well. Why are we subsidizing Alabama’s shitty economy when we could cut federal taxes, replace them dollar for dollar with state taxes and keep a LOT more money local by doing so?
I’ve always rejected that approach, but now, fuck it. Alabama dragged us into this shitshow, and they can fucking choke on their own shitty tax base for all I care.
sigaba
@Brachiator: Just remember when they do those “Man On The Street” packages, for every one person you hear they interviewed ten, and the editor intentionally selects the people that sound the most scandalous and uh… compelling. Finding Republicans that agree with Democrats and dislike Trump would be too boring.
Shalimar
@Baud: No one expects the Bowling Green Massacre…..Wait, I’ll come in again.
Yarrow
@cain:
Yes. This. It’s horrifying. They can discriminate against anyone for anything they choose. It’ll be white, Christian Trump-lovers only allowed in.
khead
@? Martin:
Pretty sure you’re supposed to fill these slots with coal miners, steel workers, and retired auto workers.
scav
Trump apparently set a new land-speed record to pat himself on the tweet over. Look at all those other losers. Graph
schrodingers_cat
Immigration ban will make the rural doctor shortage worse
? Martin
@efgoldman: Agents don’t have policy authority. The problem is this was implemented without any clear instructions. Besides, if I was one of those agents, I would have held him as well. Sure as shit he’s going to get more airtime to rail against this disaster of a policy implementation than some poor grandmother from Yemen.
Chet Murthy
@cain: cain, I’m assuming you’re south asian, or if not, your cousin or in-law is. It was already odious with the Muslim ban and the holocaust denial statement. But guess what? We people of South Asian (and more generally Asian) descent — we’re on the chopping block (and it’s not even the end of the SECOND WEEK! Hurray!) President Bannon’s interview with Vox:
http://www.vox.com/2017/1/29/14429984/trump-immigration-order-steve-bannon
Now if I could only find a few Hindu-American associations where they voted for Cheeto Bandito and show ’em this. I’d like to show the mothers what their chlidren are in for …. those idiots.
P.S. To be clear, it didn’t take this for me to know he was a Fascist and a threat to the Republic. I knew that back in 2015 (certainly by early 2016).
P.P.S. I wonder what the Hindi (or Kannadiga, or heck, any Indian subcontinent language) equivalent is for “shonda vur de goyim”. If there isn’t one, they need to get workin’ on it.
P.P.P.S. At least, from what I’ve read, the percentage of Hindu-Americans who voted for Cheeto Bandito wasn’t very large. But it’s shameful that there was even one.
P^4.S. I wonder what Nikki Haley gets told by her (Sikh-side) family at reunions. Hope they rip her a new one.
Roger Moore
@SatanicPanic:
I don’t think the really dedicated anti-government types think that way. They don’t want to shrink the government because they see a specific benefit; they want to shrink the government because the government is inherently wrong and needs to be shrunk.
Steeplejack (phone)
@schrodingers_cat:
So, silver lining, then?
MomSense
@Major Major Major Major:
Of course it has an impact on those already in the U.S. They are lying about this, too. What if you are here on a student visa and find out a family member is deathly I’ll. Do you travel outside U.S.? What if you are here on a post-doc fellowship. Do you attend that conference in Geneva? There are a million scenarios that disprove this trump administration lie.
scav
@efgoldman: well, the poor mentally fragile dear is being mocked by Swedish deputy PM. Same difference. Have to reassert dominence somehow. Besides, flting about openly practicing diplomacy?!. Monsters like that clearly must be stopped.
Corner Stone
@Baud: Pics of baby hands.
? Martin
@khead: I would love to. But I can’t put a gun to their head and force them to apply.
khead
@schrodingers_cat:
Even more job opportunities for coal miners, steel workers, and retired auto workers.
Yarrow
It’s Friday night, so time for the weekly Trump/Bannon shit show since Ivanka and Jared are out of the picture for 24 hours. What new horrors await us this week?
waysel
They will lie about everything. OFC.
Chet Murthy
@Ian: fair enough. But they both think the Shia are …. beyond the pale, right? As in “they’re beyond the pale, so should be killed without remorse or quarter”? right? That’s my memory.
Heh, Salafist, Wahhabist, Takfiri … it reminds me of the theological disputes between the Baptists and Church of Christ Campground, back in my hometown. Atheist that I was and am, I could and can only laugh. To be clear: not b/c these denominations were violent, but b/c their theological differences were really the thickness of a human hair. I recall it was about the biblical admissibility of recorded music in church (or maybe during the service??)
SatanicPanic
@? Martin: Well I guess conservatives here will benefit from having their taxes not go somewhere else. I just don’t think they’ll like a lot of the laws we’ll pass if the federal government isn’t there to stop us.
waysel
OFC.So that’s how you block quote.
lollipopguild
@Roger Moore: Many of them are convinced that the Govt benefits only “those people” and therefore they can cut the govt. and not hurt themselves.
schrodingers_cat
@Steeplejack (phone): Funny but true! Black humor is black.
dm
@Brachiator: On the other hand, support for Trump’s impeachment went from 35% last week to 40% this week. Hoping that’s the start of an exponential curve, but will settle for linear.
Cacti
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I haven’t seen a thread yet honoring the victims of the Bowling Green massacre.
Chet Murthy
@schrodingers_cat: How interesting. I didn’t realize that the Iranian Revolution was subsidizing the lifestyles of the Great Satan! Ha! [My family came to the US in a similar way — father was a doctor in India.]
What’s -most- surprising in a way, is that even though the US medical profession is so well-remunerated, the US can’t generate enough doctors, even after all these years of having to import. I understand that we have to import nurses (from all over), but nurses are notoriously underpaid and ill-treated. Whereas doctors ….
Darrin ZIliak (formerly glocksman)
Dolt 45’s press plan:
Lie.
Lie fast, lie hard, and lie often.
That, and blame Obama.
Baud
@Cacti:
Never forget.
Shalimar
@khead:
Doctor/retired auto worker: You’re going to need a new carburetor.
Patient: You’re pointing at my lung.
Doctor: Yeah. That thing. It’s not working. We need to replace it.
? Martin
@SatanicPanic: We would have passed the laws anyway.
One upside to Trump I discovered today: you can make any kind of joke at Trump’s expense at an academic institution in California with zero risk of offending anyone. It’s unsettling in the sense that we’re only reinforcing our own biases, but it’s nice not feeling quite so alone in this.
I will also note that I have gone 10 consecutive working days having at least one person break down in tears in my office over some impact from Trump being in office. I look forward to a day when that doesn’t happen.
chris
@Chet Murthy: There was a Sikhs for Trump site at one point. I just shook my head and moved on.
Daddio7
@schrodingers_cat: You don’t find it chilling that thousands of people trained in infectious diseases freely travel back and forth from a country the hates our guts?
Cacti
@Baud:
I was killed in the Bowling Green massacre.
Steeplejack (phone)
@schrodingers_cat:
Whew. Glad that passed. I remembered that you have locked horns with her in the past.
Emma
@lollipopguild: From Miami Beach to West Palm Beach would become a ghost town. Financially as well as humanly. The Orlando parks would go bust and take mid-Florida with them. That’s just the two more obvious ones.
Mnemosyne
@cain:
A slight clarification: only people who are natural-born American citizens think that it’s only a problem for people from those countries. Everyone I know with a work visa or green card from any foreign country is freaking the fuck out right now, and rightly so. As are their employers.
cain
@? Martin:
Isn’t that what California is investigating? If California finds a way to do it, the rest of west coast will follow. They want state rights? They got it. Let’s see how they like it.
Shalimar
@Daddio7: No. I’m assuming none of the Iranians who hate our guts want to waste years here becoming doctors. Let me know when the first one starts killing patients.
Yarrow
@Chet Murthy:
The US keeps tight controls on the number doctors allowed each year. Medical school admissions are limited and residency slots are in part funded by the government so therefore also limited. If the US wanted to graduate more doctors we could do that. For whatever reasons we don’t. So we import them. It’s not like there are a whole bunch of empty spots at medical schools every year just waiting for those laid off coal miners to fill them.
? Martin
@Chet Murthy: One major problem is that there aren’t enough seats in medical schools to meet the nations need. That’s true with nursing as well. We run both programs and they’re really fucking expensive to operate. On a small scale we can break even by reusing facilities we need for other things, but to grow a program to the level of the demand that we receive, we’d have to build out facilities for the sole purpose of teaching, and the students don’t generate enough revenue on their own to do that.
Medicare funds the residency program, and we really need an external source of funding to expand medical education.
hovercraft
@hilts:
That’s brutal, as is the Der Spiegel cover. Why will no one thing of his fragile psyche, the poor man just wants to be loved and everyone keeps raining on his parade. Stern may be right, all this hatred may just drive him completely nuts.
Carry on, as you were.
Cacti
@Yarrow:
The reason would be the AMA, the accrediting body for US medical schools.
Original Lee
@schrodingers_cat: Yes, one of my cousins who is a circuit-riding doctor in a rural red area has been screaming about this since she was able to get her hands on a copy of the EO. She is responsible for 5 clinics scattered over a wide area. She spends 1 day a week at each of the 4 distant ones and 2.5 days at the one near her home. She is working 12-16 hour days because there is no other doctor available, at all. She only has a nurse at the clinic near her home. The other clinics used to have a part-time nurse practitioner, but they were cut for being too expensive. She is expected to spend part of every day on telemedicine, which I guess is useful for followups, but since most of her patients don’t have internet, she doesn’t see how she can make quota.
? Martin
@cain: That’s exactly what we’re investigating. I’m not exactly happy about that in the broader sense, but if the President is going to threaten us repeatedly, I have no problem fighting back.
Trump is out there. He can’t be bargained with. He can’t be reasoned with. He doesn’t feel pity, or remorse. And he absolutely will not stop, ever, until we are defeated.
p.a.
@Shalimar:
And since you no longer have health insurance, I suggest a rebuilt instead of a new replacement; about half the cost.
SatanicPanic
@? Martin: I’ve definitely seen a lot of people who never talked about politics doing it all of a sudden wanting to. Things are definitely happening. It almost seems like our politicians are struggling to stay in front of it. I am sort of worried about it getting out of hand, but OTOH I don’t know how we should respond to the Trump admin. They’re not backing down. If we do we’ll get run over.
lollipopguild
@Cacti: Were you driving one of the Corvettes that fell thru the floor at the Corvette Museum?
scav
The EU meeting wasn’t exactly a May-Trump romance either. (Even with May asking the others to deal with him like a particularly naught toddler “At a working lunch at the talks in the Maltese capital, Valletta, the British prime minister appealed to other leaders to work “constructively and patiently” with the American president. “) I’m particularly tickled by this double whammy
Baud
@Cacti: We should hold a candlelight vigil.
Yarrow
@Cacti: Yeah. But they are not the only lever of power in the situation. If collectively we wanted more doctors to graduate from US medical schools, it could happen. We import doctors so it’s not like we don’t need doctors.
Chet Murthy
@Daddio7: Uh, maybe in -treating- infectious diseases. Which is quite, quite different from -creating- new ones (requires immense skill, some of it new research) or -reviving- old ones (again, immense skill).
I think you’re confusing the guy who pioneers trachea-replacement surgery, with your eye/ear/nose/throat doc who diagnoses your flu and tells it apart from pneumonia.
Or “guy who designs jet engines” is interchangeable with “guy who designs car engines” is interchangeable with “guy who designs gas turbines in power plants”.
I realize that to nonspecialists, all “trained people in some technical area” appear to be interchangeable, but it sure isn’t the case.
Which doesn’t even get to the point that people with this deep level of skill and training are rarely religious fanatics. The real danger here is -engineers-, not doctors. Heh: in the US, it’s the engineers who tend to be creationists, not the scientists. And from my memory, engineers are overrepresented amongst jihadists (but hey, I’m gettin’ old, could be a senior moment, so don’t bank on it). Of course, engineering training rarely includes the scientific method, whereas at some level every doctor has to know a bit of the scientific method (medicine is after all debugging the body) and every researcher -lives- the scientific method.
dm
@khead: I don’t think so. I was talking about this with my son the other day. He has a co-worker from that part of the country. The co-worker is treated like a pariah by his childhood friends and some of his relatives: he got above himself, he rejected their way of life, their way of life wasn’t good enough for him.
(Snark: On the other hand, the kid went to Harvard, so those people might have had a point.)
SFBayAreaGal
@Cacti: Just think about all those alternative lives that were lost.
? Martin
@Cacti: No, that’s not really it. Sure, the accrediting is difficult and makes it harder to grow, but it’s mostly the interaction between trying to maintain quality of education and running the operation on a budget. But with additional funding many schools could grow.
Put another way, increasing the supply of doctors would put downward pressure on their wages. Redirecting some funds from insurers (private, Medicare, etc.) toward expansion would generate a return in lower cost of services later. It may not balance out, mind you, but that cost would at least be subsidized.
lollipopguild
@Emma: Not to mention other areas, I was in Bar Harbor several years ago and large numbers of visitors there were from overseas.
HinTN
@? Martin: Great piece yesterday on NPR All Things Considered interviewing the pro and con factions, both of whom abjured the world view of the speaker.
? Martin
@SatanicPanic: I’m convinced it will get out of hand. I don’t see any way of avoiding it now.
Cacti
@SFBayAreaGal:
I’ll never forget where I was when it didn’t happen.
Chet Murthy
@Mnemosyne: I’m not natural-born (came here age 4) but sibs and their kids are. And we’re scared, too. But I do take your point — lots of citizens think “oh, we’re citizens, can’t happen to us”. To which the answer is “Nisei”. Also “black Americans since time immemorial thru today”.
Like I said, the idea of Hindu-Americans supporting Lord Dampnut is …. sickening. These are supposed to be some of the best-educated of American citizens. And they never came across Niemoller.
SatanicPanic
@? Martin: yeah. I am with you there.
Adria McDowell (formerly Lurker Extraordinaire
@? Martin: I have been considering applying to Ph.D. programs once I finish this never ending master’s thesis. Wonder if McGill has a geography program? I’m loathe to look at programs in the US, since I’m sure funding will be cut even further…
joel hanes
@Wag:
I’m feeling the same energy building now.
I’m a bit older than you; to me the past three weeks have felt like the morning after Kent State.
But Bannon/Trump are not Nixon, and their supporters are not your father’s Republicans.
With Trump’s executive orders for cover, I’m expecting widespread MAGA/Pepe vigilante violence when they feel his tenure in the Presidency is in danger from the rest of us. The CBP has just demonstrated that some of the “proper authorities” will feel empowered to ignore courts and laws when The Donald gives them cover to unleash their inner fascist.
I don’t want to get shot or go to jail while trying to help rid the nation of Trump, but more and more I feel that some of us will have to find the courage to risk that, and to have it happen — and some of us will have to die.
schrodingers_cat
@Steeplejack (phone): We don’t exactly see eye to eye on everything but antagonism has given in to grudging respect, I think.
Chet Murthy
@? Martin: Man, I wonder if Ayatollah Khameini knows this! I wonder if this phenomenon (lots of Iranian-trained docs in the US) was the case during Khomeini’s reign? Man, that woulda burned him up!
[Book advert: _The Satanic Verses_. If for no other reason, the section called “The Untime of the Imam”. Amazing. Also everything Rushdie wrote, but this little passage in particular …]
Mnemosyne
@Emma:
When I was having to spend lots of time in Naples, I found out that the area is so popular with German tourists that there’s a nonstop flight between Munich and Ft. Myers.
That ain’t gonna last.
? Martin
@HinTN: I’ll check it out, but I don’t think people quite understand Milo’s schtick at universities. His driving message is that college students need to report classmates that look like a muslim or an immigrant to ICE. It’s really pushing the limits of what we consider free speech and into what we consider incitement, which we do not protect.
Anyone who is such a chickenshit that foreigners terrify them, then I suspect that distinction would probably be lost on them.
Mike G
So these are all dangerous terrists who can’t be let in the country, but if they’re already here? Government says meh, who cares.
HinTN
@Wag: I protested in Washington at the peaceful “Moratorium” in the autumn of 1969 and at the far more violent “Shutdown” in May of 1970. This 64 yo old fart wants the young ones to carry the torch today but god damn, man, I may find myself on those lines again.
hovercraft
@Cacti:
They are being honored on the day that he releases his taxes, legally divests himself and his spawn from their ponzi scheme and he goes 24 hours without tweeting or saying anything that is untrue, on that day we will break the internets.
Major Major Major Major
@Shalimar: Kevorkian is a foreign sounding name…
@? Martin: another part of his shtick is that universities are run by unhip SJW PC police who won’t allow conservative viewpoints and hate free speech…
Renie
why does the media keep putting that horrible Conway on the air? they know she constantly lies so what is the point?
Mnemosyne
@? Martin:
Won’t that be a fun side effect of the Republicans ending Medicare!
schrodingers_cat
@Daddio7: Your comment makes no sense.
Steve in the ATL
@Shalimar:
Let me know too–I can always use a few good med mal cases!
? Martin
@Adria McDowell (formerly Lurker Extraordinaire: Yeah, I think their funding largely came out of NSF, and we’re really not sure what’s going to happen there. I know that we’re not optimistic.
Like I said, Democrats are going to get one hell of a crash course in the 10th amendment…
jc
Trump administration lies: feature, not bug. We can’t catch them in a lie, because they lie about their lying. There has to be a tipping point, where the most shameless liars round the corner to diminishing returns.
Gin & Tonic
@Adria McDowell (formerly Lurker Extraordinaire: McGill does have a good geography program. My son minored in it as an undergrad.
Montreal is also a great place to live.
Chet Murthy
@Mike G: I’d be wiling to bet a sawbuck that in fact the visa isn’t revoked until the moment the visa holder steps off American soil. That way, there’s no way the holder can sue, if you see what I mean and I think you do *grin*.
[somewhere, evil thinks-he’s-a-genius twirls mustache, sprains wrist.]
JordanRules
They can’t and don’t want to govern. It’s actual work and it’s hard. They also don’t understand how all chaos all the time will have some interesting and unintended consequences. We’ve all probably worked with someone like that before.
The lies become a necessity, not just an abusive psychological tool. As the chaos continues and their incompetence becomes more apparent, the lies will accelerate and multiply.
Going to make some tacos tonight and mine for joy and hope in the resistance. The bodega strike in NY yesterday and the #dresslikeawoman hashtag have provided some smiles for me.
Steve in the ATL
@Chet Murthy:
I know a lot of doctors and the vast majority are raging right wing assholes. Most of the engineers I know are more liberal. YMMV.
SiubhanDuinne
@Yarrow:
Think I saw that The Asterisky POTUS is spending the weekend at Mar-A-Lago. Will Malaria and The Cybers Kid be joining him?
Roger Moore
@dm:
That could easily be statistical noise. It will take more points to find a real trend.
scav
@Gin & Tonic: Wasn’t McGill geography strong in cartography? It’s been a while since I paid attention to depts, but that’s the neuron that sparked.
Major Major Major Major
@Steve in the ATL: that’s funny, it’s the exact opposite for me.
Chet Murthy
@schrodingers_cat: Giving Daddio7 the benefit of the doubt (“all the benefits of the doubt”), I think he’s arguing that you (and me, and “we”) wouldn’t want people with “training in infectious diseases” going back-and-forth to a country where the people hate us.
Yes, it assumes a ton of facts not in evidence:
(a) that Iran hates us, as opposed to using us as a foil to preserve their regime (the Americans wot did it!)
(b) that Iran would embark in a course of certain national destruction, rather than merely doing what is necessary to protect their own sovereignty.
–> I suspect Adam could chime in more clearly, but: it is standard practice for a regional (or super-)power to want its neighbors to be clients. It is also standard for a power to attempt to recruit clients who are neighbors of its enemies. This is bog-standard realpolitik. That Iran pushes back on the US’ all-too-successful recruitment of Iranian neighbors as clients, is to-be-expected, and not evidence of Iranian perfidy. Just that they’re not our allies (shocker!)
(c) that individual Iranians overwhelmingly hate us
(d) that the highly-trained Iranians, trained in modern scientific methods, will hate us
etc, etc, etc.
Mnemosyne
@HinTN:
My initial pissed-off reaction was that he shoulda been banned. My thought upon reflection was that he should have been allowed to speak, with the following conditions:
– The speech should have been scheduled at lunchtime to foil the Black Bloc assholes, who only come out from under their rocks at night.
– There should be a minimum of 1,000 middle-aged women of all races wearing pink hats surrounding the theater to point and laugh at all of the pasty white dudes as they walk in. There should be a special squad led by women of color specifically assigned to the stage door to mock Milo as he walks in.
If both conditions are met, and Milo and his followers still have the balls to show up, then he can speak.
dm
@Roger Moore: Oh, pooh. I suppose you’re right. 3.6% margin of error (presumably on the older poll as well).
Felanius Kootea
@? Martin: Can we sign a petition to have Milo deported back to the United Kingdom? I think he is a better fit with the Brexit folks there.
First we have Murdoch (Australian by birth) building the worst propaganda network the US has seen and bringing his adopted country to its knees and now we have Milo (UK) advocating genocide of different US sub-groups. I’d like to see an executive order banning just those two.
Steve in the ATL
@efgoldman:
For liability purposes, yes. The wrinkle is that insurance may not cover intentional acts, in which case i would have to take my fee in Bentleys.
Mnemosyne
@Chet Murthy:
I’m not only white, but half my family has been here since Mayflower days, and I’m STILL freaked out and pissed off. I actually drove 90 minutes down to LAX the day the EO was issued to join the protest for a couple of hours.
Peking Man
Report on CBC this afternoon said that CBC foreign applications at the U of Toronto are up 80% over last year. Ontario minister of health offering to help people who had intended to go to US for specialized treatment especially children.
Roger Moore
@Mnemosyne:
Where I work, even naturalized citizens are getting nervous.
It reminds me of what my mother said about her citizenship. She was born overseas to one American parent (who was also born overseas) and one parent who was technically stateless after the Nuremberg Laws. She went to a lot of trouble to prove that she was an American citizen by birth, more than would have been required to get naturalized, because McCarthyism had convinced her that naturalization could be revoked. I never understood that feeling until now.
schrodingers_cat
@Chet Murthy: I liked it when US gave visas to the citizens of the countries they didn’t have the best relationship with. That showed confidence, not conflating the government with its people.
Adria McDowell (formerly Lurker Extraordinaire
@Gin & Tonic: Good to know. Might have to look into it and convince the husband it’s a good idea.
Slightly OT: the good thing about being Puerto Rican (or being Puerto Rico, for that matter) is that so far we’ve been ignored. The bad thing is that if you are from the island, people automatically assume you need a green card or are illegal. Face palm.
mai naem mobile
@SiubhanDuinne: oh, so he’s on vacation yet agaon. How many vacations has he taken so far? And it costs us 23.7 billion dollars every time he decides to goto Mar A Lago. He’s gone on more vacation them any other president before. And his lazy mooch family living off the governmwnt…harrrummph
Gelfling 545
@? Martin: The few i know who leaned Trumpwards have been strangely silent. One who was the most vocal now says she doesn’t like “all that political stuff” on FaceBook.
Gin & Tonic
@scav: They were strong in GIS at the time he was there, but that wasn’t really his cup of tea – he majored in econ, so was more interested in that aspect of geography (economic development, that sort of thing.)
Chet Murthy
@Mnemosyne: Yep, I remember you writing about LAX. And also your being very (ahem) “worried” a bit before, to the point where people were chiding you. I won’t chide you (I got my passport, talk to my mom about bugging out of Texas, ffs, ffs, ffs!) but I do feel that we in CA (and the West Coast) are in a lucky position. As long as we all do our parts, there’s not much Lord Dampnut can do to us.
Most of my cringing is for the country, and for the world. For all the damage he’s going to do.
ETA: where “do our parts” might include “put our bodies in harm’s way to prevent (e.g.) roundups, etc”. But still not the same as the KKK riders.
Karen
@Roger Moore:
My African American best friend is fliyng in visiting me in the DC area in March. She’s from South Carolina. I’m Jewish and I’m planning to fly in and visit my folks in NY in April. We’re both citizens and the crazy talk I hear is making me wonder if we’ll encounter trouble. If they ban Muslims, what’s next?
HinTN
@? Martin: This
Steeplejack
@schrodingers_cat:
That’s good.
HinTN
@? Martin:
Isn’t that true of almost all higher education?
hilts
@hovercraft: @Brachiator: @Yarrow:
I don’t care how many idiot journalists, idiot entertainers, or idiots in other professions say something along the lines of “let’s pause and give Trump a chance”, I say, with all disrespect, to those individuals: Go Fuck Yourselves.
The only difference between Trump and someone with rabies is that he isn’t literally foaming at the mouth, but I’ve seen enough of this shitshow to conclude that Trump is a fucking savage with no heart, no conscience, no empathy, and no remorse. I will never sit back and give this orange blob of paranoia and neuroses a chance.
HinTN
@? Martin: The con position was very clear about Milo’s gig and the pro was mostly equally aware. It was a good piece. I come down on the side of taking him down in public with his own arguments instead of letting him get his victim schtick on.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Baud: His and Obama’s first.
gene108
@japa21:
Visa holders do not have the same due process protections citizens have.
There are three hoops to jump through that can result in a loss of a visa.
1. The application / renewal sent USCIS. These are the forms the government approves to issue you a visa. Screw this part up and you are rejected right away.
2. Once visa issued you go to the nearest embassy or consulate in your country. State Department official at the consulate reviews your issued visa, interviews you and if they like the look of you the visa is stamped in the passport. If the official does not like the look of you, he/she can deny you the stamping and thus you are SOL wrt to coming to America.
3. The final hoop is the CBP agent at the airport. If the agent decides you are not worthy of getting into America, back to your country you go. Depending on how they categorize the reason for turning you back, you maybe barred from entry for up to five years.
Usually each person at the check point has to follow rules. If you have XYZ documents, you should be good to go.
Now that rule of thumb that having XYZ documents in order gets you into the country, has been given a back seat to what mood the CBP agent is in.
It was always a risk, but usually did not manifest, if your papers are in order.
sukabi
@Baud: pics of the person in the bleachers for his parade…too bad he didn’t get his full military ensemble that he wanted…
scav
@Gin & Tonic: Ah. But if they had that cartographic history, that would have influenced their use of GIS. I was at UCSB, so our dept’s history was strong in modelling and remote sensing. Our economic and even behavioral geography was GIS based. Not so good if one was interested in certain aspects of regional developement, but there were people modelling related efforts (my advisor did some research into heath clinic placement, maximizing coverage,’inimizing travel effort, that sort of thing.
Chet Murthy
@hilts: My response (well, in theory, b/c if they didn’t vote for Hillz, my -actual- response is “begone, vile subhuman filth”) is:
You want to give him a chance? Have you studied his history (of which we have >30yr, and well-documented?) If after that, you think we don’t know how he’ll operate, well, we clearly live in different worlds.
Svensker
@Adria McDowell (formerly Lurker Extraordinaire:
I don’t know where you’re from, but McGill and Uoftoronto both have good programs. And the rate, even for foreign students, is quite low compared to the US. And the Canadian dollar is significantly down, as well, which only adds. Both Montreal and Toronto are extremely pleasant places to be.
Citizen Alan
@dm:
There are times when I think I’ll be dead of heart failure or suicide before the age of 55. Because despite stellar test scores and 3 degrees, the last of which was a JD, I have turned down every opportunity to leave North Mississippi because my parents and sister guilt tripped me out of it. And now at 47 and with various health issues I really can’t see how I could possibly get away from this third world hellhole at this point in my life.
TenguPhule
@Wag: You forget, Nixon had a sense of shame.
There is literally nothing Trump will not do to retain power. NOTHING.
TenguPhule
@jc: That point would be when they’re up against the wall, facing the firing squad.
joel hanes
@Citizen Alan:
at 47 and with various health issues I really can’t see how I could possibly get away from this third world hellhole at this point in my life.
You just slip out the back, Jack
Make a new plan, Stan
No need to be coy, Roy
You just get yourself free
You just hop on the bus, Gus
No need to discuss much …