One difficult thing during the Bush years was that a lot of people who fancied themselves to be pretty liberal still had a hard time abandoning their Totebagger upbringing. You know, compromise is good, if it’s bipartisan it is, by definition, good, we need unity, we need to listen to each other, the truly great politicians are the ones who cross the party aisle, “both sides” have good points, really, if you think about it, those Gangs of Wankers in the Senate are the true saviors of our nation, we must follow our leaders in a time of war, etc. This is mostly style and process stuff, not actual policy, but it’s the bullshit “we just need to come together” version of politics that’s been sold to suckers for decades. Was always just a con game on liberals, of course.
Suckers no more.
I’m not so sure…I see a lot of totebagger friends wringing their hands about Milo Yiannopolus’s right to free speech, about how it would be wrong to filibuster Gorsuch, about how it was the greatest crime ever when some random SNL writer said something mean about Barron Trump on twitter. I’m not defending the rioters in Berkeley or the random SNL writer, but honestly, who gives a fuck? Our nation is under siege. One hundred thousand fucking people have had their visas revoked. We’ve got bigger fish to fry.
You don’t see this kind of bullshit on the right. They’re not constantly worried that the “other side” really has a point that should be heard or that “their side” is being too impolite or any of that kind of crap.
Look, in nine ways out of ten, I think liberal culture is infinitely superior to conservative culture. But if Donald Fucking Trump can’t scare the the Vichy out of us, I don’t know what will.
rikyrah
I have been inching towards this. The 8 years of disrespecting 44 combined with the fraudulent election of 2016 has cured me.
Give.not.one.phucking.inch.
Not.one.inch.
Vote.NO.on.EVERYTHING.
lollipopguild
Democrats should see this the same way the British saw it in 1940 after France fell to the Germans. We have to fight to the death and win. There is no other option available.
germy
Here’s something I’d never thought of. An interesting theory from an Eastern European woman, about the reluctant FLOTUS:
https://clarissasblog.com/2017/02/03/a-reluctant-void/
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
I’m OK with the Berkeley riots. Nazis SHOULD fear a beating when they spew their bullshit in public. Bring the beaters to whatever justice may mete, for sure, but Bazis should always be apprehensive of public perceptions.
As for the SNL writer, fuck the Trump family. Unless you want to see Ivanka Kushner as the next President in 2024 and Barron Trump in 2032, this entire family needs to feel lousy about themselves.
Corner Stone
I have mentioned it recently but wanted to update a little. My mom, while never the totebagging type, was for the last few decades a mildly conservative person, voted D, and went about her business. Not fretting too much about the unruly discourse, but forming her own opinion and having a live and let live approach.
Welp. No longer. Donald J Trump has radicalized her like nothing I could have ever foreseen. I think she’s a haircut away from becoming a full on Joan of Arc on his ass. She’s just ruthlessly calling people out and demanding they Resist!, and if they don’t like that they get the second barrel of rocksalt in the ass.
This is to say, I don’t think I know any totebaggers, but maybe you should consider getting some different friends, DougJ. Or maybe less of them, as I have had to do.
A Ghost to Most
@rikyrah:
Once more, for emphasis:
NOT.ONE.FUCKING.INCH.MORE.
Corner Stone
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
I am fucking tired of everyone chastising liberals for “playing into Trump’s hands” when shit like this happens. I honestly don’t care if it was anarchists doing it.
Mr. Prosser
I agree, I fit your totebagger profile and I’m freaked out by all this. I can see the dying of the breed on PBS. Woodruff, Shields, etc. are as clueless and adrift as as a window stunned bird.
Michael Bersin
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: “…We’ve made too many compromises already; too many retreats. They invade our space and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds and we fall back. Not again. The line must be drawn here. This far, no further. And I will make them pay for what they’ve done…”
Corner Stone
We’re already in a Constitutional crisis. We have been in one for more than 3 months. It just hasn’t ripped through to the surface yet. Until we have that British in 1940 moment like lollipopguild mentions at #2, a majority of people are going to continue to refuse to recognize that.
Aleta
https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/01/28/plan-defeat-islamic-state-iraq
Announcement of a “Pre**sidential Memorandum Pl an to Defeat I**S” with draft to be submitted in 30 days.
Sec. 1. Policy. It is the policy of the United States that ISIS be defeated.
Development of a new plan to defeat ISIS (the Plan) shall commence immediately.
(ii) Within 30 days, a preliminary draft of the Plan to defeat ISIS shall be submitted to the President by the Secretary of Defense.
(iii) The Plan shall include:
(A) a comprehensive strategy and plans for the defeat of ISIS;
(B) recommended changes to any United States rules of engagement and other United States policy restrictions that exceed the requirements of international law regarding the use of force against ISIS;
(E) mechanisms to cut off or seize ISIS’s financial support, including financial transfers, money laundering, oil revenue, human trafficking, sales of looted art and historical artifacts, and other revenue sources; and
(F) a detailed strategy to robustly fund the Plan.
(b) Participants. The Secretary of Defense shall develop the Plan in collaboration with the Secretary of State, the Secretary of the Treasury, the Secretary of Homeland Security, the Director of National Intelligence, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs, and the Assistant to the President for Homeland Security and Counterterrorism.
HRC was too eager to engage, you see. And PBO warned off the enemy by announcing plans.
sdhays
@Michael Bersin: I thought of the same quote. :-)
Tilda Swintons Bald Cap
Ha ha. Maybe the tote baggers are learning, but the true leftists aren’t. Want a good example of why we are never going to beat these guys? Go read the comments to this thread over at Booman’s.
A Ghost to Most
@Corner Stone:
Think of Black Block as the tip of the spear when shit gets real. It is in their interest to get field training in.
Doug!
@Tilda Swintons Bald Cap:
That doesn’t surprise me.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@Aleta: I thought he had a secret plan that was better than the generals’. Whatever happened to it?
sdhays
@Aleta: Wait, I distinctly remember Republican Presidential candidate Trump insisting he already had a plan to defeat ISIS. Did he misplace it and can’t remember where he put it?
gene108
@Aleta:
Hasn’t the military already come with a strategy to defeat ISIS?
Also, we are freezing ISIS assets.
Looks like Trump is looking for an excuse to put boots on the ground.
Tilda Swintons Bald Cap
@sdhays: The dog ate it.
O. Felix Culpa
@Tilda Swintons Bald Cap:
Gaah! Never! I still read Booman from time to time, but the comments are a blight. Run away!
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Michael Bersin:
Best speech of the entire series.
Brachiator
@germy:
This doesn’t really work for me. Rather, I think it interesting how Trump disrespects his wife and presidential tradition, how the press ignores it, and how ordinary citizens so easily accept this violation of norms.
Conservative whites, getting their racism on, would talk about how beautiful and classy Melania is, and how she would bring white woman grace back to the White House. And we had the tradition of presidential children showing the incoming First Kids the fun things in the White House.
But Trump broke all this by keeping his wife and kids away, and by parading Ivanka around as though she were de facto First Lady. The keeping Barron at school thing is semi plausible, but the whole thing is still distasteful.
In any event, reports say that Melania has hired a chief of staff, and soon will be doing more.
Kay
Even the most tote-baggery liberals must have noticed the debt scolding orgs disappeared with the mention of giant tax cuts though.
What a joke they were. If they’re ever taken seriously by anyone ever again we deserve what we get.
Our “elites” kind of suck. If our elites were better we might not be in this mess. There’s enough blame to go around and they deserve some. Everyone is saying this was caused by less educated voters, but something like 40% of adults had a high school diploma in FDR’s time. Maybe we had better quality elites. The FDR voters weren’t crack civics students and they managed not to fuck it up. For once let’s push some blame up the chain instead of down. The man standing behind Trump when he gutted financial regs yesterday is educated. Blame him, too. Financial sector people are promoted as smart. Are they? I have my doubts.
lollipopguild
@sdhays: It is a secret plan and it is so secret that even trump does not know what is in it.
Brachiator
@lollipopguild:
The Brits had the Americans to help save them. Who’s going to save us?
Aleta
Re the secret plan to defeat ISIS : And Trump had billionaire Viola in the pipeline for Army Sec. until
As well as the murky Wall St trade deals of course.
Mike in NC
Two front page articles from our crappy local rag that I enjoyed this morning:
“Trump Leaving Public In Dark”
“Trump Struggling To Stock His Cabinet”
Kiwanda
“I see a lot of totebagger friends wringing their hands about Milo Yiannopolus’s right to free speech…I’m not defending the rioters in Berkeley….but honestly, who gives a fuck?”
I give a fuck about free speech, including Milo’s. We might agree that Trump should be impeached, that healthcare should be single-payer, that reparations are due, that the military budget should be cut by a factor of four, that the Wall Street plutocracy should be put out of power. But if you’re against free speech, against American values, then fuck you, I’m against you.
Aleta
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism: The plan, as unveiled last week, turned out to be fantastc: telll some people who work for him to come up with a plan and funding in 30 days. It’s brilliant, because it’s decisive and quick.
lollipopguild
@Brachiator: We have to save ourselves, we have to be our own “Americans”.
Kay
We’re about to find out if Der Trumpster can go too far. If they let this go all bets are off. I don’t think they will let it pass but every safety has failed in sequence other than the judiciary so maybe they’re made of cotton candy too and we all thought that institution was stronger than it is, too. Watch and learn, I guess.
Corner Stone
@Tilda Swintons Bald Cap:
Trump is such an awful human being he can’t even get a dog to be his friend.
jake the antisoshul soshulist
Somehow, in light of Brexit, I don’t think we csn expect the Brits to return the favor.
bemused
@Corner Stone:
I go through periods of white hot anger at people I’ve known for decades, not dumb, who lead decent lives, etc but who I suspect voted for Dump. I can’t bear to know I am right they did. I can’t fathom how they think Dump will improve life for them. I think they believe they will get rid of the things they hate that government regulates and still be able to keep all the government provided things they approve of and count on from SS/Medicare to food safety. They seem to think they will just be floating untouched above the chaos. Just a cursory look at Dump and the creeps surrounding him should have raised alarm bells long ago. Now it’s a five alarm fire. How can they not effing notice the flames are spreading through their own neighborhoods?
Brachiator
@Aleta:
I’ve never understood the claim that Hillary was a hawk itching to go to war.
On the other hand, Trump was a hell of a salesman. He disavowed Iraq while also vaguely promising to destroy ISIS without having to risk the lives of any American soldier.
Iowa Old Lady
@Kay: I’m having trouble articulating this, but I think the weakness of our elites is connected to the increasing maldistribution of income. Wealth enables power, and it’s human nature to try to increase and hold onto both. You thus provide advantages and connections for your children. Notice how many people in power basically inherited it. Regression toward the mean suggests you’ll eventually get weaker elites.
One reason the US bucked that trend was immigration and the ability of people to rise through education.
Corner Stone
@Kiwanda:
I give a fuck about free speech, too. I am kind of a Bill of Rights absolutist. Milo had a chance to exercise his free speech. Other parties more strenuously exercised the right to free expression.
What did you think was happening when Tea Party loons, some of them professional and paid disruptors, showed up at Congresspeoples’ Town Halls and screamed over any reasonable and sane discussion?
Were you wringing your hands and looking for a fainting couch then?
Corner Stone
@Aleta:
He’s just following the boss’ clear example. What’s wrong with that?
Larkspur
@Corner Stone: Damn, I love your mom.
A Ghost to Most
@Brachiator:
Large numbers of women and men in pink hats all over for now. Preparation for when that doesn’t work anymore, if you are so inclined. I’m preparing to go down swinging, if talking doesn’t work.
My B-24 pilot father-in-law, wounded over Ploesti, and his brother, dead on the beach at Normandy, are owed at least that.
SatanicPanic
Not feeling you here Doug. I think you have weird friends.
Citizen_X
@Brachiator:
The Germans, of course!
Brachiator
@Kay:
Too far for who?
The Republicans have closed ranks behind him. They care about enacting their agenda far more than they care about the rule of law.
The sad thing is that Trump supporters believe in obedience over law, if it will keep them “safe.”
lollipopguild
@Iowa Old Lady: This country was built on immigrants and built by immigrants. Immigrants coming in on a regular basis is what has kept this country great for so long. Cut off immigrants and tourists and our country dies.
J Michael Neal
@A Ghost to Most: The Black Bloc morons are not our friends, and they most definitely are not our allies.
SatanicPanic
@Kiwanda: pass. nazis are outside of normal discourse, we don’t need to hear from them.
Aleta
@gene108: And we better rush to confirm the Sec Treasury nominee because he has to get started on this.
Larkspur
I can’t help it, I worry about the broken windows, not so much the windows of Wells Fargo, but the windows of small business owners. I don’t have to like black bloc ruffians, but should I appreciate them? And then go help the small business owners sweep up the debris?
J Michael Neal
@Corner Stone: Shut the fuck up. Everyone here objected both to the Tea Party’s objectives and their methods, so take your “fainting couch” shit somewhere else. Protests against someone speaking are great; actual riots are not, no matter whose speech they are objecting to.
sdhays
@Iowa Old Lady: I think this is insightful.
Brachiator
Positive breaking news:
The State Department says it’s reversed the cancellations of visas for foreigners after a federal judge put on hold President Donald Trump’s executive order on immigration.
The department had said up to 60,000 foreigners from seven majority-Muslim countries had their visas “provisionally revoked” to comply with Trump’s order blocking them from traveling to the United States.
Aleta
@Brachiator:
That’s exactly it. Like all the best ones, he goes in for the kill and moves on.
Boussinesque
There’s been an acquaintance (friend of a friend) on FB who’s been posting these “we need to listen to Trump voters”, “liberals are just getting what they deserve for ignoring and looking down on these people for so long”, “studies show that empathy works better when trying to communicate with people that disagree with you”, and “why isn’t there a centrist party that can appeal to the majority of Americans?” articles since the election.
Man’s a PhD astrophysicist, and allegedly not “conservative”–he’s more of the preening right-of-center prick who doesn’t want the shit smell of the “conservative” label to stick on him so he can play the “only sane man” role while continuing to lecture everyone on how he’s so much more reasonable and moral.
I’m about done with it–where was his outrage over the last 8 years of obstructionism? Why is the definition of compromise “liberals should give conservatives 95% of what they want, because unity”? These Trump voters are shitty people. If they want to be regarded as not-shitty people, perhaps they should show some interest in the struggles of anyone outside their tribe. We wanted to help them–we had plans to address the issues that face them, however imperfectly, and however poorly-communicated (or poorly-covered by the media, more like)–and they hate us and a fair number of them literally want a large number of us dead. Trying to claim false equivalency between the parties at this point is just beyond bullshit. I’m sick and tired of our side always having to be the adults, and still getting raked over the coals and ridiculed, so yeah, bring on the obstructionism.
*catches breath*
/rant
A Ghost to Most
@J Michael Neal:
They will be when Trump tires of pink hats, and sends in the brownshirts.
Black Block may be the rear guard that allows peaceful marchers to escape.
sdhays
@J Michael Neal: I agree with this. People who use peaceful protesters as human shields for their violence are not our allies.
Brachiator
@SatanicPanic:
Some people used to say the same thing about civil rights movement talk.
Jeffro
@Kay: I think the big difference is the elites now have hundreds of millions of dollars to throw around into our electoral system with no restrictions on campaign finance or disclosure or anything
SatanicPanic
@J Michael Neal: Riots are just fine in the right circumstances. The LGBT movement began with one. I don’t have any particular love of the black bloc, but if Milo starts running into trouble getting bookings because no one wants to insure his events I’m not gonna cry about it.
ETA- maybe just fine is the wrong wording. It’s still dangerous and people get hurt, which is obviously not good. Not to mention illegal. I don’t encourage people to do it.
Ohio Mom
Most of the tote-baggers I know are upper-middle class enough that they are still convinced that they can ride out anything. Sure, they find this administration offensive, but almost in an esthetic sense. But I have seen a few clues that cracks are beginning to appear.
I mean, it’s only been two weeks, I’m willing to give them a little more time. Changing a self-concept and a world view at the same time is a heavy lift.
@J Michael Neal: Did you ever get your insurance straightened out? I forgot what the specific issue was.
Kay
@Iowa Old Lady:
That makes sense. That as the divide got bigger there was more “social capital” being spent to maintain an elite class and less “merit”. That’s a hard thing for people to let go of, the idea that elites are “better”. You see it with Trump voters claiming his appointees can’t be bought because they’re wealthy. They’re not taking greed into account. There is no “enough”. They want it all.
SatanicPanic
@Brachiator: are you suggesting civil rights = nazism?
sdhays
@SatanicPanic: If they want to riot, let them riot on their own time rather than use peaceful protesters as a distraction.
SatanicPanic
@sdhays: this is a good point
amk
@Brachiator: except one was all about white supremacy and the other was about getting away from it. nice false equivalence.
J Michael Neal
@A Ghost to Most: No, they won’t be. The Black Bloc will do zero to help or protect other protesters. Indeed, they make protesting a lot more dangerous, and they will continue to do so. They do not share our goals. They are the quintessential band of radicals that depends upon the violent overreaction of the radicals on the other side to justify their existence.
They are the KPD, who are happier with the Nazis in power than the Social Democrats, and who will sell us out the moment they find their Molotov.
Brachiator
@Boussinesque:
Actually you didn’t, at least not to their satisfaction, and you believed that you had the right to impose your will on them despite their objections.
They want what they want, even if it is wrongheaded. And they want Trump to get it for them. He will be greatly helped by any short term improvement in the economy.
Chip Daniels
The rightwing loves their bombthrowers, and never feels embarrassed by the nuts in their midst.
Did they feel ashamed when their fringers murdered abortion doctors?
Or held an armed insurrection against federal agents?
And note that no one in the media ever asks them to answer for their fringe.
I’m not endorsing violence, so much as asking us not to fret unnecessarily over the left fringe because they are, well, the fringe.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
“First they came for the white supremacists, and I was all Iike ‘fuckin’ A, its about goddamned time for a change….'”
Brachiator
@amk:
Thank you for your misunderstanding.
Kay
@Jeffro:
When gutting campaign finance started they promised “transparency”. That was the replacement for regulation. Of course they reneged on it. It’s almost always bullshit from libertarians, the “transparency will replace regulation” gambit.
amk
@Brachiator: that seems to be your standard go to defence, isn’t it?
Lizzy L
@SatanicPanic: The Black Bloc “riots” in Berkeley did nothing to counter Milo Yiannopoulos, broke windows, made the streets temporarily unsafe, and the cleanup is going to cost someone $100,000. I have no sympathy for stupid anarchist tricks — they help no one. I also have no sympathy for MY. If he wants to speak publicly he can rent a hall and sell tickets: see if anyone wants to listen to him under those conditions. No one is obligated to allow him a venue, the government simply is not permitted to constrain him from speaking. IMO.
Timurid
@rikyrah: It’s spelled with an ‘f.’ There’s no reason to by shy with it anymore. I’m not…
Fuck. Fuck. Fuck. FUCK.
Once you’ve gotten comfortable with it you can get to work…
Fuck Trump. Get fucked, Nazis. Compromise? Fuck that.
J Michael Neal
@SatanicPanic: The gay rights movement got started with one riot, that was a direct response to police abuse. That in no way resembles the Black Bloc, who have a long history of rioting because it’s Tuesday. There is no way to galvanize the kind of responses we want behind a bunch of habitually violent thugs; that only galvanizes the brownshirts.
Aleta
@Brachiator: I wonder: Does “provisionally revoked” imply that the 60,000 are only those whose paperwork is still intact–are already inside the US or didn’t yet try to enter?
Or does it also include visas that have now been cancelled because the person tried to enter or board a plane? And some people had to ‘voluntarily’ agree to give them up.
If I understand how it was before, many of the visas from those countries, even for researchers and medical residents, ended after one use. Could not be renewed. One would have to go through the whole 2-4 year vetting process again.
JMG
@Brachiator: The economy has gradually improved for the last six years. Yet the Trump voters complained prosperity hadn’t reached them — not without some justice. The trouble for them is, that’s not going to change. Manufacturing isn’t coming back, nor is coal mining. Farm-based areas of the country will be screwed if Trump pursues his trade “policies.” Opiods are blasting through rural or declining small urban parts of America and no place is exempt (Massachusetts has a terrible problem with it). Trump’s not going to do shit about that. All he can give them is the circus of persecuting their perceived “enemies.”
kindness
Scare the Vichy? No. More like expose them for what they are for those who have a capacity to see for themselves. Which is far less people than I thought it was back on October 31st.
SatanicPanic
@Lizzy L: that’s my point though- at some point highly controversial acts runs out of places that want to book them. If he is reduced to giving sidewalk speeches then everybody wins.
Kay
@Jeffro:
Iowa old Lady is saying something scarier though. She’s saying they’re separating “merit” from “entry into elite class” because they’re promoting their own with generational advantages- born, not made. That’s contrary to the story we tell and it also could explain a loss of quality there. It’s stagnant. There isn’t enough class movement to keep it vibrant.
A Ghost to Most
@sdhays:
What happens when peaceful protests increasingly draw armed anti-protesters? Somebody says something, somebody retorts, and it’s on. Thousands of unarmed and unprotected citizens, many women and children, running for their lives from armed, spiteful assholes. It could easily happen.
Corner Stone
@J Michael Neal: Fuck you, garbage time motherfucker.
SatanicPanic
@J Michael Neal: I’m not defending the black bloc, I’m saying in this instance I am not all that upset with them. The DC riots, for instance, were not helpful at all. Except for that guy who punched Richard Spencer. Every other part of it was counterproductive.
ETA also I do think they harm Milo for reasons I’ve been outlining
Aleta
@sdhays: I get the impression that they move in on a protest, sort of like a trained outside force.
Timurid
@Kay:
If you said that to a judge in court, you’d be in contempt.
Brachiator
@SatanicPanic:
it’s Black History month. Do you really not know of the time when even white moderates would warn black activists about violating the “norms of civil discourse” by advocating for civil rights too hard?
There are always people who think they have a good reason for suppressing speech. The reasons are always false, whether the subject is vile, like the Nazis, or angelic, like the civil rights movement?
You should worry more about Trump redefining the bounds of normal discourse.
Neldob
And every time we obstruct we pull put our list of Repubs obstructions starting with Merrit Garland, (as well as lower court judges) and attempts to better fund infrastructure. I would like to have more on this list but Garland is taking up all my mental space.
Lizzy L
@SatanicPanic: We’re in agreement. He can stand on a box and shout into the wind like the other nutjobs.
Timurid
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism:
They’re still scraping bits of it off the pavement in some one stoplight town in Yemen…
debbie
The bullies are going to be bullied right back. Bet they’ll be whining crybabies about it.
A Ghost to Most
Black Block may also serve as a deterrent to anti protesters.
sdhays
@JMG: I have to work hard not to hope for a mild trade war with Mexico. Texas in particular would reap the whirlwind, and the voting majority there richly deserves it.
In the near to mid term, I could see the economy improving. Clearly the Republicans want to let loose a new Wall Street bubble and that would have the ability to prop up the economy temporarily. But like you said, that’s not going to do anything for the people who didn’t prosper in the Obama years or Bush years or Clinton years…
Baud
I don’t think you can limit that attitude to totebaggers. It’s not different than lefty comments that we need to reach out to Trump voters.
J Michael Neal
@A Ghost to Most: Yes, it could happen, and if/when it does, the Black Bloc will in no way provide protection for anyone. That’s not their goal, and it isn’t in their interests. All they will accomplish, all they want to accomplish, is hastening the slide into violent anarchy. There presence gets more people hurt, not fewer.
Corner Stone
Someone pointed me to this on Twitter:
Isabella Lovin signing Climate
Also enjoyed this one:
Kamala Harris
hovercraft
The blaming President Obama’s failure to lead for the rise of the Shitgibbon tells me these assholes have learned nothing. We still get all these bullshit stories about Hillary and Obama’s failures being the cause of the situation we now are faced with. We are told about heroic statesmen who are standing up to him, but these are the same people who blew smoke up his ass and elevated him to a position of power within their party, Romney and the rest genuflecting before him, ( I hope and pray that Romney and Anne cry everyday when they think about the fact that it’s waking up in the WH everyday and is president, and Mitt will never get to be,) the John McCain’s and all the rest who grovelled before him after they called him unqualified and deranged, they voted for him anyway, they put party before country. How the hell was Obama or Hillary for that matter supposed to work with such craven despicable people, they’ve shown themselves to be completely without morals, and they will do any and everything in their power to gain more power at the expense of millions of lives. They all knew that the ACA would and is benefiting millions of people, but they ALL stood in opposition for political gain, these are not statesmen and women, they are craven immoral politicians in it only for themselves, and they will sell themselves for almost nothing. After all what have they gained for the price of their souls? Obama left as one of the most popular, accomplished presidents in decades, they control DC, but their are all tied to a raging incompetent lunatic, they can put out ineffectual statements and posture all they want, but he is still their lunatic, they will go down in history as being part of this. They are changing rules and norms to accommodate him, voting for his nominees, and for his policies, they may disagree here and there but they are on board with most of his agenda, they are him.
We have the right to protest, we have the right to say mean things about the shitgibbon, and the difference between what we are saying and what they said about President Obama, is that what we are saying is true, he is a joke, the world is horrified at his ignorance and boorishness, but they are frightened because he is a petulant narcissist with a lot of power. Merrick Garland was a consensus nominee as even Orin Hatch said, this guy is a radical and not in the main stream, there are grounds to oppose him, on top of which the GOP needs to understand that there is a price to pay for their behavior, we will not be doormats. If the totebaggers want civility, they need to demand it from the other side for a change, make them act like grownups for a change, they have all the power now, so let them reach out to us. If not fuck em, these nominees are unqualified and unprepared, so we must oppose them, they made democrats own Obamacare, fine we do (proudly), now it’s our turn to make them own the Shitgibbon in all it’s glory, you’re welcome.
Even the ones who are realizing that this may not be a case where reaching across the aisle is possible, feel the need in their criticism of the new administration to blame democrats, so no they have not learned. Random people on TV and comedians criticizing is not the same as party and congressional members and the Twitler in Chief saying dumb and dangerous things, get a fucking grip and then maybe I’ll give you the time of day, till then STFU, there’s work to be done.
Brachiator
@Aleta:
Don’t know. Problem is we don’t seem to have an intelligent or competent State Department trying to resolve these issues.
Corner Stone
@sdhays:
How does that play out in your scenario?
Baud
@hovercraft:
This.
SatanicPanic
@Brachiator: the reasons for suppressing Nazi speech are valid, the reasons for suppressing civil rights are not. I don’t need a history lesson here. The people of that era were wrong. Is anyone wrong about Nazim being bad? Will there be a future time when rational people say “turns out there were things about Nazism that we didn’t understand!”?
MJS
@Kiwanda: Are you for expending government resources to ensure Nazis get to speak wherever and whenever they want, free from fear of being attacked for what they say? I’m not. Any Nazi is free to say whatever he wants without government interference. Don’t expect me to pay to have government interfere on his behalf. We have an “outdoor show” coming up here soon. I’m free to go to it, and loudly proclaim that most of the attendees are Trump supporters, and therefore stupid racists. Should I expect real-time protection should I choose to do so?
kindness
The free speech thing, especially wrt Milo. Some of the things he has said are incendiary. He whips folks up on purpose. Some have said his speech against those he despises (all of us) border on hate speech wrt getting people riled up. I’m not one who thinks those purposefully throwing gasoline on the fire should have all the protections of a ‘free speech’ argument. It’s the falsely yelling out ‘Fire!’ in a crowded theater type thing. Where does one draw the line & who gets to choose who that is?
hovercraft
@Corner Stone:
Between that Isabella tweet and the official who quipped that the EU doesn’t need Teresa May to be a bridge with Twitler, after all, all they need to communicate with the Americans is twitter, his first G20 meeting later this month should be fun.
debbie
@Baud:
There’s nothing wrong with “come together” as a philosophy, but we have to know when to set it aside; otherwise, we’re just bringing knives to a gun fight.
Barry
@Kay: “Even the most tote-baggery liberals must have noticed the debt scolding orgs disappeared with the mention of giant tax cuts though.”
No, because it’s their *job* not to notice such things.
debbie
@hovercraft:
Hopefully someone will turn off the mike when he turns the discussion to himself.
A Ghost to Most
@J Michael Neal:
Remember this the first time innocent people marching get killed by the fascists, and nobody was there to give them time to escape.
They are not our friends, but we share a common enemy.
Baud
@debbie: Agree. I’ll welcome any repentants. People who want unacceptable compromises are out.
amk
@kindness: Exactly. Fucking that hate speech is free speech chicken is how we arrived at the present racist pos as the prez of ‘free world’.
Brachiator
@JMG:
Good points. But Trump voters believe in the promise. And could Trump’s plutocrat buddies temporarily prop up the economy until they get their tax cuts?
Baud
@Kay:
I was more surprised by the sun rising in the east this morning.
Mike in DC
We need militancy, but not random public violence. Militancy is an open, disciplined display of CAPACITY for ORGANIZED violence (generally in self-defense) without actually becoming violence. See also X, Malcolm, and Black Panther Party. These, I’d argue, were important adjuncts to legal advocacy, peaceful mass protest, civil disobedience and legislative action.
MomSense
NPR is dead to me. NPR is garbage just like the NYT. Both belong in the trumpsterfire of history.
Oatler.
I literally heard Satan laughing with delight when I saw this tweet:
Chuck Todd @chucktodd 22h22 hours ago
Our political discourse would improve if folks in power and in the opposition could spend even just a second in the other’s shoes.
Satan is laughing with us, not at us!
Davis.X.Machina
@Aleta:
A young man I teach told me he was supporting Trump because he was going to make America great again.
I asked him “How?”
He said, “By restoring its greatness.”
So it makes sense that we’re going to eliminate ISIS by a strategy of ISIS elimination.
Neldob
And every time we obstruct we pull put our list of Repubs obstructions starting with Merrit Garland, (as well as lower court judges) and attempts to better fund infrastructure. I would like to have more on this list but Garland is taking up all my mental [email protected]Boussinesque: I don’t think we look down on them, we wonder why they hate us and deny reality.
sdhays
@A Ghost to Most: Where do you get the idea that these guys who get off on destroying property and endangering other people would be into protecting anyone other than themselves? This assumes facts not in evidence and ignores plenty of facts to the contrary.
A Ghost to Most
@Mike in DC:
This. They are cowards at heart. Feed the cowardice, not the bravado.
Stand up to bullies.
Baud
@Oatler.: I’m happy to take Trump’s place as president.
Another Scott
Yup, we need to keep things in perspective. And we need to march, protest, yell, and let our politicians know that we won’t accept a minority destroying our government and the civil society that we, our parents, and our grandparents built.
Some may recall that I was complaining that the USPS web site was broken when I tried to use it to buy a bunch of $0.38 “Forever” pre-stamped “postal cards”. It would log me out (without a sensible error message) as soon as I tried to “checkout” no matter what computer or browser I used (even my Android phone). And it wouldn’t let me create a new account (in case there was something scrambled there) because it knew I already had one. It started happening just after they did some maintenance. It took about a week, with several back-and-forths with their web support people, but it’s finally “fixed”. Turns out that I didn’t have a phone number listed on the account and apparently their updated shopping cart didn’t like it. Once that was added, everything works perfectly.
I’ve made a list of all the people I plan on writing regularly (Kaine, Warner, Beyer, Krizek, Surovell, McAuliffe, Herring, Northam) and will get started today.
We may not be able to stop all the horrible things that Trump and his minions and enablers want to do, but I’m going to do my part to make sure that “my people” know where I stand.
Cheers,
Scott.
SatanicPanic
@sdhays: this.
amk
@Oatler.: shorter toady: why can’t we all be republicans. asshole.
A Ghost to Most
@sdhays: Go play with the totebaggers. I’ve said several times here I’m done with dancing with fascists. I will leave it to others willing to do it. I am hoping, but not hopeful, that the talkers will succeed. We need to look to when talking fails. They are following the fascist playbook. Armed goons are coming to a march near you.
Mothra
Kids are off limits, period. The writer apologized, which is more than I’ve ever seen Donald fucking Trump do.
J Michael Neal
@A Ghost to Most: Your comprehension of the Black Bloc is woeful. They think that we are their enemy. Like many extremists, their first order of business is wrecking the less extreme elements on their own side. They won’t stop the brownshirts from hurting anyone, because protesters getting hurt is what they want.
hovercraft
@Aleta:
A comprehensive plan drawn up by the Three Stooges I’m sure will scare the bejesus out of ISIS, I expect them to surrender and disband by the Fourth of July. Then the Trumpenfurer can hold his victory that day with the full military parade he was denied for his inauguration, can’t you just picture it, tanks rolling down the streets, war planes in the shy, maybe he can even get them to test some new missiles so the world can look on in awe at the size of his um military, yes military weaponry.
Corner Stone
Joy is having none of this caping BS on AMJoy.
.
.
If I may.
ruemara
@Brachiator: no. It’s a pretty offensive comparison.
MJS
@Oatler.: Soledad O’Brien had a great response to that tweet. If I was better at the Twitter I’d link to it, but it begins by calling Chuck’s tweet “trite and untrue”.
Another Scott
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: I’m not as upset about Milo (who is a horrible, awful excuse for a human being) as I am with the group that invited him. Those are the monsters, here, it seems to me. They were the ones that gave their blessing. They are the one that enabled this whole conflict and so forth.
Organizations have a responsibility to the norms and traditions and history of their groups. The Berkeley College Republicans (or their leadership) decided to throw all of that away.
Yes, horrible people have the right to say what they want (as long as it isn’t incitement, etc.). Organizations do not have the responsibility to enable any monstrous kook that comes along.
To be clear, I don’t care about the College Republicans. But I do care about groups selling themselves out to destroy our civil society and norms.
Cheers,
Scott.
hovercraft
@debbie:
How many of them will pretend not to speak english to avoid having to talk with him? Can you imagine being one of the translators who has to translate his gish gallop into something coherent in another language? They need hazard pay for this one.
Mothra
A couple of prominent reporters have been pointing out something “the left” must condemn- like a picture of trump on a mag cover with a target on it. It’s a stupid distraction.
sdhays
@Corner Stone: It doesn’t, that’s why I don’t actually hope for it. I suppose you could say it’s the least worst thing I can think of Trump actually doing that might hit some of the people who prop up him and his party the most in a way that would upset them and direct their anger at him rather than the scapegoat du jour.
What I really want is for enough Republicans in Congress to get hit on the head so hard that they decide to abandon everything they’ve stood for and stand up to all of this (essentially to stop being Republicans). But in reality, this won’t happen and it will be up to ordinary citizens to get us through the next few years until we can take the keys away. And then we must get those keys out of the Republicans hands!
Neldob
@Brachiator: Repubs obstructed many of our ideas including lots of funding for infrastructure
A Ghost to Most
@J Michael Neal:
Your underestimation of what the fascists are capable of, and of what you think marches are capable of, is admirable, but naive. These people are capable of great violence.
You keep talking.
Brachiator
@SatanicPanic:
Sez you.
Kinda proves my point. People always think that they have a good reason for suppressing speech. The reasons are rarely valid.
There have always been “rational people” who think the Nazis had a point. Where have you been? Have you missed the rise of the neo-Nazi right in Europe?
And some of these “rational people” who admire the Nazis are White House advisers.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Brachiator:
Hey, there’s a CEO in place as Secretary of State. According to conservative dogma, he’s a brilliant decider of things that require deciding, and will fix up everything perfectly.
Neldob
@Baud: np it’s not.
liberal
@Mike in DC:
This.
Now, of course, there is a time for violence, since, as the Preacher said, there’s a season for everything. But it’s not time yet. And it’s never time for disorganized, random lashing out.
Before we ever get to the point of actual violence, we’d be much better off creating structures to serve us in the event that organized violence is necessary.
Villago Delenda Est
If you are a motherfucking Nazi, you have forfeited any rights you had.
You smash Nazis in the mouth. You do not defend the indefensible. There is no “peaceful coexistence” with Nazi fucks.
hovercraft
@Baud: @Baud:
You liberals are so shrill !!
Yes, yes we are, and anyone who has a problem with that can go to hell, Obama and the democrats played nice, we let Bush and his merry band of war criminals slink off into retirement, and look where it got us, some of them are back, Gulliani, Elliott Abrams a criminal to boot, no more. We will not be quiet this time, at some point a cornered animal will fight back, and you have us good and cornered, we are fighting for our very lives and those of our kids and loved ones. If you can’t join us, then get the fuck out of the way.
tybee
@Brachiator:
sinn fein
Ruckus
@rikyrah:
I like the way you think.
Now all you need to do is learn to spell fuck with 4 letters and you’d be perfect.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
This “30 days to concoct a way to beat ISIS plan” is likely causing Mattis ulcers. Particularly the implicit express mandate for Geneva violations and collateral damage.
I can hear the chants now:
“Hey, hey DJT how much torture have you done for me?”
hovercraft
@Oatler.:
Response
Fuck you Chuck Todd.
When you have something useful to add to the discussion raise your hand, until then STFU.
Thank you and have a nice day.
SatanicPanic
@Brachiator: so basically you’re going to take what I said and put it in scare quotes? That’s your answer? You didn’t respond to anything I said. Yeah no shit some idiots believe things that are obviously wrong. Yes, at one point in history it was plausible to say Nazism wasn’t a bad idea. That was over half a century ago and there’s no evidence since then that condemnation of Nazis has been anything but correct. Whatever I give up. This is absurd.
randy khan
@Brachiator:
Us.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@liberal:
Good Christ, we’re converging.
Mandela would not have succeeded with passive resistance alone – he needed the violence of THE ANC.
sdhays
@A Ghost to Most: This is silly. Let me just state clearly that I’m not particularly concerned about the racist shit-stain’s “free speech” being harmed. He has not been silenced. What I am worried about is the danger these people intentionally put peaceful protesters in. They could have demonstrated their willingness to use violence in any number of ways, but they chose to disrupt a peaceful protest.
They will never defend unarmed people. The unarmed people are their human shields. Stop making them into things they aren’t and never will be.
geg6
@randy khan:
This. This is our only option.
Brachiator
@ruemara:
Then get ready to be really offended Law and Order Trump obviously hates the Black Lives Matter movement, and I will bet good money that he will equate any positive discussion of it with treason.
Not much difference than the frightened whites, including moderates, who begged for Martin Luther King to tone down his rhetoric, and slow down his demands.
Time for people to re-read Letter from a Birmingham jail.
Villago Delenda Est
@hovercraft: Collaborators will be dealt with, in the end. You’ll have no need for a barber for quite some time, Toddler.
Origuy
@A Ghost to Most: It’s Bloc, not Block, as in the Eastern Bloc. The name has a long history. They may have a common enemy with the rest of us, but I don’t see them as helpful. I agree with those who say they won’t be a rearguard for other protesters when the police arrive to bust asses. They’ll haul their asses out of there first.
geg6
@sdhays:
Yes. This too.
sdhays
@liberal: Exactly.
Ruckus
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
They probably actually do, well at least the head of the family does, it’s why he’s always projecting that he’s better than everyone else, at everything, the size of various appendages, that dead ferret he had attached to his head, his enormous lack of wealth, his pyrite encrusted homes, his personality………..
Villago Delenda Est
@Mothra: Did Rush Limbaugh ever apologize for what he said about Chelsea Clinton?
Fuck these people.
Neldob
@MomSense: The right wing thinks so too. But put some pressure on em. Sometimes they are good. PBS on the other hand … good for something I hope.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
The one thing I hope will emerge is a general consensus that just because you’re wealthy or a CEO, it doesn’t necessarily make you smart.
hovercraft
@MJS:
sdhays
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: That would be an amazing accomplishment.
Ruckus
@Brachiator:
Most of the rest of the world seems to be willing to help. It may be a selfish desire not to be destroyed but help is help.
Sloegin
Free speech ends when they call for death to protestors, when they call for the elimination of races, creeds, and classes. Screw that noise. Short of that? Blather away. Absolutism is most definitely a vice.
Corner Stone
An amazing development, if true and consistent:
CNN turns down White House offer of Kellyanne Conway to appear on Sunday shows: report
TBogg at RawStory
Brachiator
@SatanicPanic:
You didn’t say anything to justify suppressing speech, even if it is vile.
So, shouldn’t we let these people speak, and continue to condemn them? Seems simple.
trollhattan
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism:
He did, but Nixon stole it back in December and there wasn’t a backup copy. Pity, IBIS would already be dead.
Brachiator
@Corner Stone:
If only the other pundit shows would also do this.
Baud
@Corner Stone: I might have to start watching them again.
Glidwrith
@Brachiator: The civil rights folks don’t talk about committing genocide as a means of solving problems aka Richard Spencer.
hovercraft
Click the his name to see the numbers on the issues polled, hard to believe that 49% actually approve of his handling of the economy, then again it is still Obama’s economy, funny how suddenly everything that was terrible a month ago is just hunk dory.
More from Soledad O’Brien
Perhaps Jake’s bitter because he’s with CNN, but he seems to getting more and more shrill ;-)
trollhattan
@Brachiator:
Here’s a good dissection of the Spokescobra’so rhetorical trickery. Required reading for anybody climbing into Kellyanne’s fightin’ cage.
Brachiator
@Neldob:
Trump said, “I’m going to save your jobs. I will bring back your jobs.”
False. OK. But this is comforting. It promises that life will go on without change or disruption. Anyone can understand, “I will keep what I got or get back what I used to have.”
And Trump is making some vague bullshit promises of supposedly massive infrastructure spending to go along with this (and I bet it will never happen).
Democrats: “Your jobs are gone, but we will give you some temporary minimum wage infrastructure work.”
Not very comforting.
hovercraft
@Baud:
Nah don’t go overboard, they are doing this because they are being attacked, they had no problem when it was just liberals and people of color, and LGBT, and Muslims and women and, you get the picture. If they keep it up and shut off all Twitler’s minions for a couple of weeks we can revisit this, but for now, they just get a nice pat on the head.
@Brachiator: they on;stand in solidarity when a democratic president attacks a legitimate news network like FOX, republicans are supposed to hate the liberal media so his attacks are legit.
Peter
@A Ghost to Most: The Black Bloc assholes will not do that. They aren’t a military force that shows up to protect protestors. They’re a bunch of anarchists who show up to protests – any protests – and try to turn them into riots, using the other protestors as cover while they do.
They are not on our side. They are not on the enemy’s side. They’re on the side of riots and violence for its own sake. I don’t know where you got this idea that they would rearguard for us but it’s farcical.
Teddys Person
@Another Scott: Thank you for the link to the pre-stamped post cards. I was looking for these earlier in the week and couldn’t find them at the online USPS store.
Villago Delenda Est
@Brachiator: But realistic. Which of course is not what these cretins want.
Villago Delenda Est
@Peter: They’re nihilists. Fuck them.
dww44
@Tilda Swintons Bald Cap I read Booman a lot, but increasingly only scroll the comments to see if a couple of the saner progressives have posted anything. Booman himself has begun to push back against some of the most consistently negative commenters:
My favorite comment from your link:
by JoelDanWalls ([email protected]) on Fri Feb 3rd, 2017
Ruckus
@bemused:
I know those people as well. They’ve been fed a load of bullshit about government, democrats, blacks, browns, women for decades and while they actually agree with liberal ideals, they have this nagging voice in the back of their heads that maybe, just maybe this country isn’t all that great, that it could be better. And of course there is a certain amount of truth to that, it could be better. But along side all that load of what is wrong with the country is a load of bullshit on how to fix it. And that bullshit boils down to make it better for the rich and fuck everything else.
Conservatism boiled down is protect the wealthy, make everyone else pay for what they want so they have more and it’s harder and harder to take (tax) any of it away. The trick they’ve pulled off pretty well has been convincing a good portion of the rabble that supporting them is better for the rabble by giving them various scapegoats.
Doug R
@Brachiator: Ironically, it may be the Germans. Or the Canadians. Not the first time we’ve had to slap you to your senses….
Brachiator
@Glidwrith:
Yes. Some speech is lovely. Some speech is vile. Doesn’t justify banning.
And as mild as civil rights speech was and is, some frightened white people still saw it as beyond the pale of normal discourse.
Tilda Swintons Bald Cap
@Brachiator: This is actually the way to handle these guys. Don’t invite any of them on and at the beginning of each show run a disclaimer: Trump’s people do nothing but lie, so we will no longer give them a platform for this. I bet their ratings would go up.
EBT
An older friend of mine who has been insisting that hitting Nazis is bad finally figured out Milo’s game last week and cheered on him being driven out like so many zombies being turned.
a thousand flouncing lurkers (was fidelio)
@Kiwanda: Was it the US government, the government of the State of California, or the local authorities who denied him his opportunity to spread poison? Because I thought that little shindy was put on by private citizens, which means he wasn’t censored. He was just allowed to see what his own medicine tastes like.
Brachiator
@trollhattan:
Link didn’t work. Might be my Chromebook at fault.
In any event, Kellyanne Con Job is easy to figure out, there ain’t much art to her deception. Note that she gets a lot of praise from political strategists who have worked for both Democrats and Republicans. But these people tend to be amoral.
And the Republican leadership either keep silent or follow her lead when they appear on pundit shows.
Yarrow
I wouldn’t be surprised if some group, whether black bloc or something else, will paid to be violent so that Trump’s administration can clamp down. That’s the authoritarian playbook.
Doug R
@Brachiator: That’s why civil rights went non-violent. Nazis kill people.
Tilda Swintons Bald Cap
Here’s what the GOP has to say about our speech vs. Milo’s:
Link here.
J Michael Neal
@A Ghost to Most: Reading comprehension apparently isn’t your strong suit. When did I ever say that the right isn’t dangerous? Here’s a hint: never. Try reading what I wrote again, and see if you can make an honest response.
sdhays
@Brachiator: Since I grew old enough to start following the national political discussion of “the economy”, what quickly became clear was that no one really has any idea how to restore the semi-rural economies which are commonly associated with the Midwest. Or rather, no one who gets an actual platform to either speak or actually do things. The economy there started hollowing out in the 70’s, accelerating in the 80’s, stalled (at best) in the 90’s, and continued downhill in the 2000’s.
Democrats don’t know how to fix these problems and are thus afraid to promise the moon. Of course, this fear is related to why they don’t think bigger about addressing these problems – they think it’s intractable and besides, no one would allow them to try more liberal policies anyway, so it’s better to focus on the small-bore, concrete things that do not seem impossible.
I guess the question is: would Democrats (and thus the country) be in a better place if they had been promising to get everyone their job back regardless of how liberal their solutions were? Would these people who are looking for this comfort been receptive to that message? I would like to believe so, but I think history suggests that the situation is more complicated. And what will these people do when “So-Called President” Dump and his Republican Congressional compatriots fail to deliver?
Brachiator
@Villago Delenda Est:
I am being realistic. Just as realistic as the blade of a guillotine.
J R in WV
@Brachiator:
Well, that may be, but civil rights organizers were not promoting genocide, were they? Which is a founding principle of all Nazis! Smacking Nazis in the face is the least they deserve. Cocktails at 6 is more like it. Molotov cocktails, I’m meaning.
I’m a huge believer in free speech, but there are limits, shouting fire in a crowded theater being a time-honored example, and attempting to destroy our culture of welcoming multiple cultures is another. Promoting genocide and ethnic cleansing is on that short list with a bullet!
That should have shut Trump down on day 3 of his despicable campaign!
Ruckus
@A Ghost to Most:
Black Block goes looking for resistance so they can get violent, you don’t think some on the other side has the same idea? Lots of them maybe chickenshit but not all of them are. MLK was right, violence is not the answer. It detracts from the point of the protest and becomes the entire story. Look at Berkley, the news was about the violence, almost nothing about the protesting. Look at the protesters where the college cop was shown macing the sitting protesters, walking down the line with his industrial sized canister, bullying them. He lost, they won.
Alain the site fixer
@Boussinesque: hey there! Glad to see you’re commenting without issue.
Mnemosyne
@A Ghost to Most:
Since I live on the West Coast and have seen the Black Bloc shit all over protests for years, let me explain how they work:
The Black Bloc spots a peaceful protest, waits for darkness to fall, moves in to break shit, and then runs away, leaving the peaceful protesters holding the bag.
They. Are. Not. Our. Friends.
amk
@Brachiator: so basically, you are #alllivesmattering it?
Duke's Archives
@a thousand flouncing lurkers (was fidelio): You’d think everybody on the planet had seen that XKCD Freeze Peach PSA but I guess not.
amk
@Alain the site fixer: Heh Alain, any luck on the go to the bottom button for mobiles?
Yarrow
@Mnemosyne: So a good plan for universities hosting speakers that might be protested would be to require the speeches to start and finish during daylight hours?
ruemara
@Brachiator: You have ZERO leverage to tell me about moderates. The comparison of the free speech of Nazis to the civil rights movement was offensive then and you reaching that now is still offensive.
Mnemosyne
@Brachiator:
Milo tells his followers to call ICE in to harass every immigrant they might be acquainted with, just for kicks. Classmates, professors, girls who wouldn’t date these losers — they should all be harassed by the government for the crime of having a green card or valid visa.
But, hey, it’s just free speech.
Mnemosyne
@Yarrow:
That is my strong opinion, especially in places like the Bay Area where the Black Bloc assholes frequently show up to break shit.
If the speech had been held at noon, there would have been no violence.
Brachiator
@sdhays:
I agree with you, but think that it actually started in the late 60s, but this is a very small matter.
If the Democrats don’t have the answer either, that is not much of a reason to vote for them, especially if you are a Trump supporter. And if the small-bore things don’t accomplish anything, then what’s the point of them?
And that’s the problem. I think that the Democrats needed a big, bold plan. But the Republicans blocked Obama all the way, and Clinton was stymied a bit by her caution, but much more by Trump’s bombastic bullshit.
This is a very good question. But the Democrats will have to offer something as a solution. They will not be able to count on Trump’s failure alone to guarantee a return to power.
At best, the Democrats have always offered hope and a promise to find solutions. FDR did not have all of the New Deal in his pocket when he first ran for office. Truman, Kennedy, Bill Clinton, Obama, offered to work on real solutions. But they also had big dreams, not small-bore dreams.
Boussinesque
@Brachiator: Democrats actually had better than that on offer this cycle, not that you’d have known it from the media coverage. I was at a conference last year where Jennifer Granholm was talking about Hillary’s plan for regional advanced manufacturing clusters in a bunch of those states–they had region-specific ideas about technologies/industries to focus on, given local geography, resources, and research being done at local universities, and policy recommendations for the states to encourage the creation and growth of those clusters, as well as local training/hiring initiatives. It was designed in a way that encouraged the states to adopt it themselves, since congress could be counted on to be obstructive assholes. It seemed reasonable to me, but I never saw it talked about in any great detail on the campaign trail.
@Alain the site fixer: Yeah, everything’s been working well–I’m just usually late to threads or feel like I don’t have much to add, so I keep quiet. No problems, but thanks for your help back then!
Brachiator
@Mnemosyne:
That’s not just speech, is it? But thanks for trying.
@amk:
Nope.
Villago Delenda Est
@ruemara: Brachiator is one of the smoothest concern trolls I’ve ever seen.
Another Scott
@Teddys Person: You’re quite welcome. They do seem to bury them there…
I even went to a couple of post offices trying to find them before I got my login issues resolved. The tiny branches didn’t have any, and the local main post office only had 11. The stamp machines don’t have them either, and they seem to have mostly done away with the vending machines. And they’ve done away with the “order by mail” form, too. They really want everything even slightly out of the ordinary to be done on their web site, and one has to dig a little if one isn’t sure what’s there.
But they didn’t stop me!! :-)
Cheers,
Scott.
Villago Delenda Est
@Boussinesque: Actual policy shit bores the living fuck out of the vermin of the Village.
trollhattan
@Brachiator:
I’ll try again.
link
amk
@Brachiator: dems didn’t have any plans. ok, dems had some plans, but did not go far enough. dems didn’t offer racist trumpsters the pillows they so deserve. what a load of gish gallop.
amk
@Villago Delenda Est: Yup. It is.
J R in WV
@trollhattan:
Your link is nothing but http:///// there isn’t even a clue for us to use to fix it for you.
Mnemosyne
@Brachiator:
You seem to be missing the point. When Milo has one of his little free speech talks, that’s what they consist of — instructions on how to harass and otherwise make other people’s lives miserable. That’s what he’s known for. That’s what these people are going there to learn.
But you think it’s okay for him to hold these instructional talks on how to make other people’s lives miserable because Free Speech.
Brachiator
@Boussinesque:
Was it not talked about, or did the media not cover it?
In any event, “I will save the job you have now and will bring back your jobs from the lousy Mexicans and Chinese” is easier to explain and appears to be more concrete. And with the media bias, the Democrats needed a better way to sell their ideas.
Also, it is a fact that Clinton succeeded in getting her message to millions more than Trump, but (even allowing for voter suppression) she needed to do better in a few swing states. This is frustrating since the popular majority wanted what the Democrats were offering, but an electoral majority did not. This will always sting.
trollhattan
@J R in WV:
Yeah, tablet hijinks. Fix @ #204 works.
GregB
We should try to get Milo booked at Falwell’s Liberty U. so he can regale them his turgid tales gay sex.
Brachiator
@Mnemosyne:
Yep.
I don’t trust people who want to suppress speech, even for the purest of motives.
I would also probably punch Milo in the face if I were in the same room with him.
Brachiator
@amk:
Now you are just making shit up.
DissidentFish
@Brachiator: That claim was originated in Moscow. What, beyond that, needs to be understood?
Villago Delenda Est
@Brachiator:
Voltaire never met Reinhard Heydrich.
amk
@Brachiator: nice projection.
Brachiator
@trollhattan:
Worked this time.
Wow. A woman dismissing Kellyanne Con Job with gendered put downs.
Cool girling. Schoolmarming. Mothersplaining. Ice queening.
The criticisms are on point, but didn’t need the cattiness.
amk
@DissidentFish: It’s simple. Clinton had to disprove all the lies to the ‘trump voters’ who will swallow any amount of thug’s lies. So, it’s all her / dems’ fault, you see?
It’s a troll.
Corner Stone
@Villago Delenda Est:
I think you misunderestimate. Or maybe miscategorize. Contrarian concern troll with a liberal (heh) interjection of hippie punching at every opportunity.
I was going to say soupçon but that seemed a little too boojie and also not enough in quantity.
Mnemosyne
@Brachiator:
So we need to get rid of libel and slander laws? You can’t be a free speech absolutist without doing that.
Once we enshrine in the law that there are some limits on the Bill of Rights — and there are at least a few legal limits on just about every one of those rights — then it’s just a slippery slope to getting rid of civil rights, no? There’s no reason to restrict the free speech of people who want to hold classes on how to build pipe bombs or IEDs.
Corner Stone
@Villago Delenda Est:
I thought the two of them had lunch with Frederick Douglass the other day in Bowling Green, KY?
Brachiator
@ruemara:
No. I compared how foolish people reacted to the civil rights movement. That’s just a historical fact.
Ruckus
@Villago Delenda Est:
You know I might normally agree with you, he and I have gone around a number of times. But I think the issue is more in the reflexive way he writes than the ideals he has. He really is on our side, in some ways more to the left than many here. But he does have a practical side to all of it as well. In the case at hand he does seem to be confusing the government not allowing the nazi to speak (which it had no part in, Berkley being a rather strong supporter of free speach), rather than the rest of us telling the nazi to DIAF or at least shut the fuck up.
rikyrah
@O. Felix Culpa:
You can read most his writings at Washington Monthly too.
Another Scott
@sdhays:
If one looks at generational trends, there is no “solution” without concerted government action. As fewer people are needed to grow food, people move to cities for work. It’s been that way for hundreds, and maybe thousands, of years.
If we want to encourage people to stay in small towns and small cities, then there has to be investment there, and realistically that needs to be a result of laws and government policies, or direct government investment. Things like taxing transportation fuels to make the true price reflect the damage it does (and the costs to protect shipping lanes and international production). If it weren’t so cheap to import things from China and Bangladesh, then small factory towns would be able to compete better. Etc.
Our economy is a function of the choices we make. Contra Martin (a day or so ago), (roughly) “free trade and automation” aren’t inevitable. Our economy is a human construct and we can and do shape the way it goes. We can make Corporations live up to their legal charters which require (or often used to) that they behave in the public interest. Of course, the general trend of increasing efficiency means that more mechanical manipulation will continue to be done by machines. That does not mean, though, that wages and standards of living in America must fall to match those of Somalia or South Sudan for us to “compete” or that people won’t be employed in manufacturing in the USA. AI won’t make us obsolete, either. (Who is going to repair the robots? Machine repair is very, very different than manufacturing on an assembly line.) We make choices about who benefits in America and we can rebalance those choices whenever we choose.
Yes, there are serious and legitimate tensions about the divide between rural and urban people in America. Cities benefit greatly from cheap food, raw materials, building products, and all the rest. But economies evolve, and economies ultimately serve people – not giant tracts of land, and similarly our government represents people and not giant tracts of land…
Cheers,
Scott.
Brachiator
@Mnemosyne:
False, but thanks for trying.
This is a tired argument that goes back to those cowards and fools who wanted to prevent libraries from stocking The Anarchist Cookbook.
And there are Trump supporters who would like to monitor and ban Internet sites that discuss similar topics. Are you up for that?
Kathleen
@Tilda Swintons Bald Cap: With all due respect, I would rather plunge hot needles in my eyeballs than wade through the sucky swamp of the Booman commentariat. Not very bright people, and I’m being kind.
EBT
@Brachiator: Raising taxes versus lowering taxes is grounds for civil discourse. Raising taxes versus burn all the Jews is grounds for a beating. Period.
hugely
@Kiwanda: yea Im with Kiwanda, as long as this Milo guy was not over the line inciting riots in his speeches then he should be allowed to speak just as Berkeley wanted him to. I am sure his message is right wing breitbart pap. Im no totebagger but those BlackBloc guys are nihilists – you want direct action go fucking graffiti Trump golf courses or billboards not cause riots and commit violent acts in Berkeley (which looks very false flaggy/CREEP/COINTELPRO to my eyes)
A Ghost to Most
@Origuy:
Yea, because that changes the whole argument. We’re trying to figure out where to go, and you’re complaining about the spelling on the road signs.
hugely
@Corner Stone:
fuck you! – lucky I didnt have coffee in mouth
trollhattan
@Brachiator:
Speaking as a dude person with a lengthy period observing spouse and her cohorts I find the analysis and tone perfect for that audience. To borrow the “slave catcher” term from another commenter, Kellyanne represents exactly that to women appalled at any woman gilding the serial predator turd that is Donald Trump. Their level of concern and anger can’t be overstated.
SgrAstar
@A Ghost to Most:
Evidently you don’t live in the BA. The BB have no ideology except chaos. They fer sher will not be saving anyone or anything.
Brachiator
@Ruckus:
Good points. I recognize the difference between government action and what people may do. I just think that citizens should reflect the values that they enshrine in the government. So I think that the despicable dog should have been allowed to speak and that people should have peacefully protested the shit out of him.
I also don’t think that hateful speech goes away just because you try to suppress it. The alt right bullshit is evidence of that. It has simmered and festered for years, and is now seeping up into the public consciousness. Fuck, we have White House advisers who are racists, and a president who at least aided and abetted racist clowns and used them to help springboard his ass into the Oval Office. This is more serious than some shit heel giving a speech on a college campus.
And, as a matter of record, I didn’t have any problem with Obama talking about people who cling to their guns and religion, or to Hillary Clinton talking about Deplorables. I applauded it. And there were good liberals who would shake their heads, and waggle their fingers and bleat about how, “Oh, lord, it’s just not nice to point out to racists that they are being racist.”
Origuy
@A Ghost to Most: The fact that you consistently spelled it wrong indicated to me that you weren’t familiar with them. Living in the Bay Area, I’ve known about them for years. They’re spoilers, not activists.
chopper
@J Michael Neal:
I marched with the black bloc when I was younger. yeah, they’re not interested in helping. they’re interested in breaking shit and getting attention. if a demo goes south, they’re not going to be in the back helping people get out of harm’s way – they’ll be in the front cause they’ll be the guys who helped make the thing go south in the first place.
Brachiator
@Villago Delenda Est:
I am beginning to think that you lack true revolutionary zeal.
There might be a tumbrel waiting for you.
@Corner Stone:
I am ancient enough to have known actual hippies. Most of them were pretentious asswipes.
But I have nothing but respect for people who articulate and fight for a righteous cause.
Mnemosyne
@Brachiator:
Obviously you haven’t been paying attention to my arguments over the last couple of days, which have been that the school should have scheduled his speech for lunchtime and required it (and any accompanying protests) to end before dark to foil the Black Bloc, who only come out under their rocks at night and who exist only to foil peaceful protest. Or is putting time restrictions like that also an unacceptable infringement on free speech even if we know exactly who is going to show up to break stuff and when they’re most likely to show?
sdhays
@Another Scott: Absolutely. How we want our communities to be defined is a conversation we should be having, but never do. There are too many interests invested in making sure government doesn’t actually work to a plan, so we get crap about “self-reliance” and “the magic of the free market” and “the evils of big government”.
The repercussions from NAFTA are mixed, some positive, some clearly negative, and some neutral, but making it a center-piece of his first two years in office and forcing the Democratic Senate to approve it was just about the stupidest thing, politically, Bill Clinton has ever done. It broke the Democratic brand as a Republican developed free-trade deal ratified mostly with Republican votes then became completely owned by the Democratic Party and free-trade policies, no matter how ill-considered, have ruled the day ever after. Elite Washington sighed with relief that the controversy over “free trade” was finally “settled”.
After 1994, the Democratic Party essentially surrendered on these issues, wrapping itself in the delusion that the Clinton years were fantastic (the Clinton years weren’t terrible, but there was no “Clinton Boom” in my hometown and the bottom fell out less than a year after he left office). Now, I think Democrats are at least aware of the problem and finally do have some ideas for beginning to address it (as @Boussinesque pointed out, Hillary did have some useful, albeit difficult to sound-bite ideas for starting to address these issues) but we still don’t seem to be at the point where Democrats are ready to go on full-throated offense about attacking these problems.
But also the media doesn’t want to have this discussion at all; they’ll talk about the disaffected white communities in the Midwest when they’re letting their freak-flag fly, but where have they been all this time? Why haven’t they been highlighting this issue for the past four decades? President Obama talked about it in every single election on the national stage, from Senator to President (he even name-checked my hometown occasionally), but it never really cut through.
Which brings us back to the points Iowa Old Lady and Kay were making about the lousiness of our elites.
brendancalling
@Tilda Swintons Bald Cap: I hate those people
A Ghost to Most
From huffpost
A Ghost to Most
@Peter:
Right now, they are all there is.
The movement appears not to have given a moment’s thought to protecting the marchers from those people. Who is going to do that?
Anyway, you folks work it out. Keep talking, as long as you can.
Villago Delenda Est
@A Ghost to Most: The single death should be that of Dan Adamini.
Ruckus
@Another Scott:
Free trade and automation may not be absolute in the short term but they will be here sooner than you seem to think. The people than own the companies that make stuff, and this is any where in the world, want to reduce prices and produce (and sell) more. Since the advent of the computer the number of ways that they can be used has been growing at a rate that I’d guess beats the pants off Moore’s Law, that the capacity will double and the price halve. I was manufacturing things with computer controlled machinery in 1973. Find a UTube of any modern auto factory and you will see robots galore. Even class 8 truck mfg use many robots. It will not get to be less automation, but it will get to be more. And those robots? Made in many parts of the world. I still work, 44 yrs later in producing metal products and the level of automation is far, far more than it used to be. It will be at some point the major way a lot of the things you buy and see will be made. I had a customer back in the 80s/90s, a Fortune 100 company, who bottled an automotive product, 50,000 gallons a day, in one gallon bottles that they mfg at the plant as well as the final product, the raw ingredients came in railroad cars and there were less than 35 people who worked there and 8 of them worked in the office. Most things you see today are done with some level of automation and no one in the ownership chain wants to see that go back the other way.
Corner Stone
@Brachiator:
Shocked! Shocked I am! This is my Shocked Face!
FlipYrWhig
@sdhays: Republicans still vocally support all of those things, and still get elected in the places supposedly concerned with the ill effects of those things. Which leads me to conclude that the people supposedly concerned aren’t looking to politicians to solve them, but looking to stomp on scapegoats, because they are horrible assholes who like being horrible assholes.
Ruckus
@FlipYrWhig:
Ahhhh, the republican party of the last 50 yrs. Some of their members far longer.
Another Scott
@Ruckus:
Yes, I agree.
I’m not making myself clear enough, but I did also say:
Intel and Samsung can make computer chips billions of times cheaper than in the past, and one can get a sorta decent meal for the equivalent of around a half-hour of work at a minimum wage.
But it’s not a law of nature that “free trade and automation” will determine our future, is what I’m trying to stress. There are consequences when people who work for a living can’t afford to have a decent life to pay their bills without stressing out continuously (heath issues, crime, anger and violence issues, stunted growth, etc.). There are consequences when the MoTU soak up all the gains (government only listens to them, the downtrodden see no future, the risk of revolution rises, etc.). The economy is a human construct and has to serve people – not the other way around.
Few people really want to work in a coal mine, or do other back-breaking, soul and health-destroying work. Things like that (dangerous, tedious, mind-numbing work) should and can be automated. But that doesn’t mean that the people who did the work should be left behind now as just losers who couldn’t “compete”.
I’m all for “free” education through graduate and professional school. I’m all for continuing education and re-training. Education is a good in itself and needs to be made much more widely available.
But we’re kidding ourselves if we accept the framing that our businesses act the way they do because of “free trade” or “that’s just the way modern life is” or “they can’t pay more because they have to compete with robots and workers in Somalia” or “we have to automate because we can’t get people to do these good jobs that start at $10 an hour (with 10 years experience)”. No, it’s not just “the way it is” – the system was made that way and it can be changed. Our society will not work if an important fraction of our population cannot make a decent living. Blaming automation and free-trade is a cop-out, and it doesn’t solve the problem.
I hope it’s a little clearer where I’m coming from now. :-)
Cheers,
Scott.
Peter
@A Ghost to Most: No, they are not. They do not and will not perform the function you’ve convinced yourself they will.
neldob
@Brachiator: Yep. and tie it around the necks of Republicans. Is that possible?
Ruckus
@Another Scott:
Well I think you’ve stated your position well and have done so before. But that’s not what you stated. There are two different issues here.
1. What we do, how we do it and how much do we get paid for it.
2. What do we do when so many fewer people are required to sustain a level of production that far fewer people are required to sustain life.
Number one we both discussed, and I will touch on it later but number two is the biggie that few mention. I’ll use myself as an example. People with my skills and skill level used to be somewhat rare and well paid. They are now rarer and somewhat better paid but automation has made them not as big as a requirement. In a machine shop with 6 employees, like I work at now, it used to be that 4 people of my level or higher were required, now it’s maybe 2. Yes 2 of the remaining 4 have to be a bit better than the old 2 but not a lot. The work gets done and gets done better at a lower cost. Many business are like that and it will get only worse. Bosses, no matter how good of a boss they are or who owns the company, need to make money for the company or it goes out of business. That’s not just the American way, that’s the way of all businesses everywhere. We have to address this and no one is. The world is changing, it always has and always will. All our societies used to be built around providing food and shelter to the group, no matter the size. In the heavily industrialized nations (and that includes us) this is no longer the case. Yes we work to earn money to buy food and shelter but many/most of us don’t provide the food and shelter first hand. And yet we still organize our selves around the idea that we do. Conservatives frequently talk like that is all we do, while it is what, less than 1/4 of the working. We don’t talk much about what type of country we’d like and who and how it’s paid for, other than conservatives talk about going back at least 60 yrs to a simple time, which wasn’t and also didn’t require well over half of the population to grow food or provide shelter. They have less of an idea and only a direction that life can’t provide but we are so focused on not doing that and making the present work, given the opposition, that we don’t even guess at what we’d like, other than universal health care.
All of this is to say, that while we may be productive, we are relatively rudderless.
So I ask, where would you like to go in the future?
Ken_L
I think lots of people are in denial about Trump. Their minds will not let them accept that such an ignorant oaf has been elected president. They protect themselves against the truth by acting as if everything is normal, hoping sooner or later it will become so again.
People often act this way when faced with a catastrophe outside their cognitive capacity to deal with. Lots of passengers on the ‘Titanic’ got flustered about the craziest things, rather than confront the fact they were all about to die.
Ruckus
@Brachiator:
Been thinking about your reply.
I do agree with you but I think you are leaving out a bit of human reality and history. It wasn’t all that long ago that humans got things by taking them. We go unions and many laws because people were taking from workers, both money and lives, as one example. I see this and my answer to Scott in #255 as really one issue. And I’m not blaming anyone, we really haven’t had to ask the question a whole lot before, what do we do, now that we really don’t have to work solely to create food and shelter? Conservatives want to go back to a time when that’s what we did, even though they’d hate that with all of their might. Liberals want a free and happy society where we all just get along and have universal health care. There has to be more, more of an idea of what type of society do we want. We need to at least have a direction for that. To bring this back I think if you paid attention, Hillary Clinton was trying to at least give a reasonable answer to that question, even if it was based upon needs and not desires, just as President Obama did. BS was trying to rabble rouse for the attention and drumpf was trying to not lose what he thinks is his universal appeal. And line his pockets. The rest of the 17 rethugs were just trying to line their own pockets.
AxelFoley
@hovercraft: This. ALL. THIS.
Another Scott
@Ruckus: You explained things well. I would spin things a little differently, though.
You have a couple fewer people in your position, but I would bet there are more support people that directly and indirectly support your shop than in the past. People who maintain your machines (which probably need more frequent and more skilled maintenance than when everyone was using Bridgeport mills and similar purely-mechanical machines), people who deliver tools and parts to you and to your customers (in just a few hours in many cases), people who supply the advanced metals and other materials that you can now machine, people who supply the CAD tools and computers, etc.
You have fewer people in your shop, but you probably have as many or more people supporting you now (of course, depending on how you count them).
It’s not at all clear to me that manufacturing in the USA is doomed, and I think it’s worth making manufacturing a stronger part of the economy going forward (for national defense reasons, if nothing else, and there are lots more compelling reasons).
I’m a huge fan of efficiency. Farming out critical manufacturing to places half-way around the world is not sustainable (short of coming up with much, much better batteries and practical fusion power). Cheap transportation is a fluke of cheap fossil fuels that are destroying the planet. It’s not sustainable without scientific and technological breakthroughs, and we won’t have those breakthroughs without a manufacturing base.
If diesel were $5 a gallon, there would be a lot more thought about local supply chains, local manufacturing, and doing everything possible to reduce shipping costs. Countries would be forced to be more generalists rather than doing everything they can to be dominant players in one area. It would make a lot of sense, but it would be a huge disruption if it happened too quickly. (I’m sure there would be down-sides as well.)
Economies are more sustainable when they’re diverse in products, services, geographical distribution, etc. We should be investing in lots and lots of new areas, and in long-term basic research that we cannot expect companies to fund on their own, to help improve efficiency as well as develop opportunities for more people to make a decent living.
I’m not arguing that the USA needs to be the largest producer of Monongahela Steel Ingots until the end of time. Cars are over 100 years old. Liquid-fueled rockets are over 90 years old. Atomic bombs are over 70 years old. Integrated circuits are over 50 years old. Technology marches on and we shouldn’t expect that our products and services and employment can or should remain static, especially as the rest of the world gets richer. But we can guide our economy to be more balanced and not just let corporations decide how it goes.
There are huge problems out there that need to be addressed. There’s a mountain of work that needs to be done, that we know how to do, and there’s a mountain of money out there just waiting to be spent (money that people are accepting low or even negative interest rates to keep “safe”). Our government knows what it takes to address these issues, to get more people working for decent wages, to address the imbalances in the economy, etc., etc. We “just” need to elect the right people to get started.
Cheers,
Scott.
AxelFoley
@Brachiator: Ok, you can fuck right off with your bullshit. Anyone who claims Nazis deserve free speech is no better than a Nazi themselves. Fuck you, especially for comparing the Nazis to the Civil Rights Movement.
Brachiator
@AxelFoley:
Once again, an Internet conversation descends into incoherent invective.
Bite me.
LAC
@ruemara: unbelievable that a debate about nazi speech rights is actually happening here. And being compared to the civil rights movement. Yeah, it’s morning in America. And this is from one of our supposed allies. Back to post op meds and tv housewives yelling at each other. Makes more sense.
Just wow…
LAC
@Brachiator: what racists claimed the civil rights movement was about and what it did has ZERO comparison to what the nazi regime said and did – their message is not about equality in this country, but the isolation and eradication of non aryans. You want to argue about freedom of speech like some flailing first year law student have at it but to compare these two is shitty and makes you look like a gold plated turd.
TenguPhule
@Brachiator: First Rule of Civil War, Disabuse them of that notion.
If you are a Trump Supporter, you are a legitimate target.
If you support Trump, you deserve all harm coming your way from both Trumpster’s government of Terror and the resistance to it.
Pick a side. Or suffer from both.