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You are here: Home / Foreign Affairs / Open Thread: It’s All Fun & Games to the Repubs

Open Thread: It’s All Fun & Games to the Repubs

by Anne Laurie|  February 7, 20175:29 pm| 373 Comments

This post is in: Foreign Affairs, Hail to the Hairpiece, Open Threads, Republican Venality, Assholes, Clap Louder!, Get Angry

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Quinnipiac finds immigration ban much more polarized and less popular (except among Republicans) than before Trump's order pic.twitter.com/6p7JwgDaDb

— Nate Cohn (@Nate_Cohn) February 7, 2017


.

The Repub response, fronted by the “leader of the smart Congressional conservatives”:

50% less immigration in next 10 years proposed in legislation to be introduced in the Senate https://t.co/A2qsZuyc5M

— Christopher Mims (@mims) February 7, 2017

Sen. Tom Cotton and Georgia Sen. David Perdue have started taking steps to crack down on legal immigration, a focus shared by the Trump administration, per Politico. They’ll formally propose legislation on the matter as soon as today. The details:

– Eliminates multiple avenues for U.S. citizens and permanent residents to sponsor family members for green cards.
– Gets rid of the diversity visa lottery, which allots 50k visas per year for citizens of countries with low levels of immigration to the U.S.
– Restricts the number of refugees allowed into the country to 50k annually, similar to rates outlined in Trump’s travel ban.
– If approved, the number of legal immigrants allowed into the U.S. under the bill would plummet by 40% in the first year and by 50% over the next 10 years, according to Cotton’s aides.

Of course, count on Rep. Steve ‘Pig Muck’ King to lunge for the moral sub-sub-basement, just to stay in contention for Worst Congresscritter…

Some people have lost their minds: @SteveKingIA: Putin Allows Freedom of Dissent Because He Hasn’t Murdered @Kasparov63 in NY Yet. pic.twitter.com/Whq5FefiHR

— The Reagan Battalion (@ReaganBattalion) February 6, 2017

Don’t think you can call this behavior “normal”, but it’s become the Republican standard.

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Reader Interactions

373Comments

  1. 1.

    Baud

    February 7, 2017 at 5:31 pm

    “Yet.”

  2. 2.

    mai naem mobile

    February 7, 2017 at 5:32 pm

    Tom Cotton is a snake. He scares the shit out of me because he doesn’t have that turn off factor that Cruz has but believes in the same shit.

  3. 3.

    Villago Delenda Est

    February 7, 2017 at 5:33 pm

    It’s interesting that a twitter account called “The Reagan Battalion” thinks Estevan Rey has lost his mind.

  4. 4.

    Felonius Monk

    February 7, 2017 at 5:35 pm

    When will Emperor Donnapolean meet his Waterloo and take all these fuckers down with him?

  5. 5.

    Baud

    February 7, 2017 at 5:35 pm

    @mai naem mobile: Hopefully, a fringe benefit of Trump will be torpedoing the careers of people like Cotton.

  6. 6.

    Mnemosyne

    February 7, 2017 at 5:37 pm

    No one said the cornered rats weren’t dangerous, but we’ve had it pretty fucking easy for quite a while now.

    I know people love to pooh-pooh the changeover of government in Egypt, but people being ruled by a corrupt government protested until Mubarak resigned.

    We still have a reasonably functional government, so we could pull out of this much better than most countries IF we work at it.

  7. 7.

    trollhattan

    February 7, 2017 at 5:37 pm

    But the fake news media refuse to report the fake polls, so we’re all good here.

  8. 8.

    Mnemosyne

    February 7, 2017 at 5:37 pm

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    Sorry, who’s Estevan Rey? I can’t keep up.

  9. 9.

    Davebo

    February 7, 2017 at 5:38 pm

    I’m shocked! (not really) that they aren’t targeting EB-5 Investor Visas.

    Roughly 10,000 EB-5 Visas are allocated each year. Currently, Chinese applicants get over 80% of them.

    CHINESE!!

  10. 10.

    Jerzy Russian

    February 7, 2017 at 5:38 pm

    Jesus Hussein Christ. Someone please tell me that remark from King is fake news. Anyone?

  11. 11.

    Major Major Major Major

    February 7, 2017 at 5:39 pm

    edit: nm

  12. 12.

    Orogeny

    February 7, 2017 at 5:39 pm

    I hate Trump with a white hot passion, and don’t think he could ever do it in a fair and equitable way, but if it were done in a legal, Constitutional manner, I wouldn’t have any problem with limiting legal immigration. The USA has too damned many people here now. American quality of life would be much improved if we could get our population back down below 200 million. We could add a special case exemption to the limits for refugees.

  13. 13.

    Baud

    February 7, 2017 at 5:39 pm

    @Davebo: Kevin O’Leary of Shark Tank is Canadian and he’s going to try to do there what Trump did here. I wonder if he has a green card.

  14. 14.

    Mary G

    February 7, 2017 at 5:40 pm

    @Mnemosyne: Steven King in Spanish.

  15. 15.

    Baud

    February 7, 2017 at 5:40 pm

    @Orogeny: How do you propose we cut over a 1/3 of our population?

  16. 16.

    Cacti

    February 7, 2017 at 5:40 pm

    Remember when GOPers used to say it was only illegal immigration they opposed?

    Heh.

    I didn’t believe it then either.

  17. 17.

    Iowa Old Lady

    February 7, 2017 at 5:41 pm

    @Mnemosyne: I believe that’s Iowa Rep. Steve King

  18. 18.

    Baud

    February 7, 2017 at 5:42 pm

    @Cacti: They also say they don’t want to punish the woman who has the abortion, and don’t care about birth control.

    I’m running out of fingers to be pulled.

  19. 19.

    zhena gogolia

    February 7, 2017 at 5:42 pm

    @Jerzy Russian:

    Sorry, it sounded authentic. “He’s still alive and well.” Unlike Nemtsov, Politkovskaya, and on and on and on . . . .

  20. 20.

    Cacti

    February 7, 2017 at 5:42 pm

    @Orogeny:

    American quality of life would be much improved if we could get our population back down below 200 million.

    Okay, you leave first.

    Or lemme guess, you were exempting yourself from the country’s need to depopulate?

  21. 21.

    Yarrow

    February 7, 2017 at 5:42 pm

    @mai naem mobile:

    Tom Cotton is a snake. He scares the shit out of me because he doesn’t have that turn off factor that Cruz has but believes in the same shit.

    He’s got the dead eyes, though. He’s scary as hell.

  22. 22.

    Orogeny

    February 7, 2017 at 5:43 pm

    @Baud: @Baud:

    That was a pie in the sky number…why dream small? But, if we worked at it over 4-5 generations, by encouraging family planning and limiting immigration, we could begin to get there.

  23. 23.

    tobie

    February 7, 2017 at 5:43 pm

    WTF! Do people realize how much immigrants contribute to the economy or in their resentment do they just not care? I divide my time between a very blue city and a very red rural county and I have come to despise the asswipes in the country whose lifestyles are subsidized entirely by blue counties and immigrant communities.

  24. 24.

    Brachiator

    February 7, 2017 at 5:44 pm

    If approved, the number of legal immigrants allowed into the U.S. under the bill would plummet by 40% in the first year and by 50% over the next 10 years, according to Cotton’s aides.

    Hmmm. This might be followed with more restrictions on birth control and exhortations to white people to do more fucking. Gotta replace the population of real white Christian Americans.

    @Major Major Major Major:

    Does it do anything about undocumented immigrants, or are we conveniently ignoring them because it’s good for business?

    The fantasy is that somehow deportation will happen, even if it is only self-deportation of illegal immigrants. The other fantasy is that Americans newly impoverished by the Republicans will take any job.

    ETA: As an aside, I love the continued sellout of libertarians to the GOP. They used to be for open borders and no limits to immigration. Also, this is more capitulation to Trump, Bannon, etc . Chamber of Commerce Republicans loved immigration. These restrictions are also anathema to tech companies and continued innovation. In short, insanity.

  25. 25.

    Chris

    February 7, 2017 at 5:45 pm

    @tobie:

    Do people realize how much immigrants contribute to the economy

    No. It’s been an article of faith in the heartland for the longest time that all immigrants do is take jobs away from real Americans.

    Agree with the rest of your paragraph wholeheartedly, but this is what privilege and entitlement looks like: red counties have been on the dole, so to speak, for so long they don’t even realize it, much the same way fish don’t realize they’re wet.

  26. 26.

    Orogeny

    February 7, 2017 at 5:45 pm

    @Cacti:

    Who said one single thing about anybody leaving? I favor amnesty fro anyone who has been here over a certain length of time. Don’t ask for a number, I don;’t claim any expertise in immigration law. But, you can’t start deporting people who have established lives here.

  27. 27.

    Davebo

    February 7, 2017 at 5:45 pm

    @Orogeny:

    American quality of life would be much improved if we could get our population back down below 200 million.

    Should we accomplish this subtly? Say through lead in the drinking water or mass sterilizations? Or can we just nuke say the 6 biggest metro areas in the country? Wait, the top six won’t be enough.

  28. 28.

    Mnemosyne

    February 7, 2017 at 5:46 pm

    @Mary G:
    @Iowa Old Lady:

    Is it divisive if I say that nickname is dumb? Plus I think Esteban is more common than Estevan.

  29. 29.

    chris

    February 7, 2017 at 5:47 pm

    @Baud: He does, he spends most of his time in Boston.

  30. 30.

    Mnemosyne

    February 7, 2017 at 5:47 pm

    @Orogeny:

    How do you propose supporting the Baby Boomers from retirement until they die of old age? The last segment won’t hit Social Security age for about another decade.

  31. 31.

    Davebo

    February 7, 2017 at 5:48 pm

    @Baud: I have an ex urging me to get involved in it now and she’s actually in a position to make it happen.

    Give me a million in cash and I’ll put 10 people to work within 2 years no problem. The Chinese guy could care less if the investment actually turns a profit. A million is nothing to them for a permanent green card.

  32. 32.

    Orogeny

    February 7, 2017 at 5:48 pm

    @Davebo: @Davebo: Nice strawman. Read what I said earlier. That is simply a long term goal. I’m curious, do you see any reason at all to limit the population of the US? Should we pack people in like drupelets?

  33. 33.

    Davebo

    February 7, 2017 at 5:50 pm

    @Mnemosyne: Don’t you see? That’s the beauty if it all.

    We get below 200 million by killing off all the baby boomers! It’s a win win!

  34. 34.

    rikyrah

    February 7, 2017 at 5:51 pm

    @Cacti:
    Who believed them?
    Not me

  35. 35.

    A Ghost to Most

    February 7, 2017 at 5:51 pm

    @Mnemosyne: Even google isn’t very aware. There is a link to the Domesday book, but that is right out.

  36. 36.

    AnneW

    February 7, 2017 at 5:51 pm

    Hey Mnemosyne, I picked up some Cobasi on sale for summer weight p-hats. I haven’t decided whether to hold it doubled or not.

  37. 37.

    Mnemosyne

    February 7, 2017 at 5:51 pm

    @Orogeny:

    There are 76 million Baby Boomers. Japan, which severely restricts immigration, is experiencing major problems supporting their rapidly aging population.

    So, again, what is your proposal to continue supporting the population we already have?

  38. 38.

    Redshift

    February 7, 2017 at 5:52 pm

    “He hasn’t killed Kasparov” appears to be an ongoing thing among idiot conservatives (but I repeat myself.) Dinesh Deplorable trotted it out in September and drew this response from the man himself, which Pig Muck apparently never heard about:

    Have you noticed I live in New York now? Stop spitting on the graves of Putin’s victims with your dictator worship. https://t.co/SlLEfDZ1E3

  39. 39.

    Baud

    February 7, 2017 at 5:52 pm

    I’m not going to have children, so I’m contributing to the goal.

  40. 40.

    JMG

    February 7, 2017 at 5:52 pm

    @Orogeny: How much of the US have you actually been to? We got empty space galore, even in a relatively crowded Eastern state like Massachusetts, the western half has plenty of room for population growth. It’s as proven as any economic theory can be — immigration and population increases should help countries grow more prosperous if their businesses and governments don’t screw up policy. When a country starts losing population, that’s a bad, bad sign for it. Russia after the fall of Communism is a prime example.

  41. 41.

    Cacti

    February 7, 2017 at 5:53 pm

    @Orogeny:

    Who said one single thing about anybody leaving? I favor amnesty fro anyone who has been here over a certain length of time. Don;t ask for a number, I don;’t claim any expertise in immigration law. But, you can’t start deporting people who have established lives here

    Your idea is unworkable. It would result in a country full of senior citizens.

  42. 42.

    skerry

    February 7, 2017 at 5:53 pm

    Thought provoking article about ordinary Americans and their actions under Trump’s immigration ban.

    A week ago, men and women went to work at airports around the United States as they always do. They showered, got dressed, ate breakfast, perhaps dropped off their kids at school. Then they reported to their jobs as federal government employees, where, according to news reports, one of them handcuffed a 5-year-old child, separated him from his mother and detained him alone for several hours at Dulles airport.
    …
    When we worry and wonder about authoritarian regimes that inflict cruelty on civilians, we often imagine tyrannical despots unilaterally advancing their sinister agendas. But no would-be autocrat can act alone. As a practical matter, he needs subordinates willing to carry out orders. Of course, neither Donald Trump nor Steve Bannon personally detained any of the more than 100 people held at airports over the weekend pursuant to the administration’s executive order on immigration, visitation and travel to the United States. They relied on assistance.

  43. 43.

    Davebo

    February 7, 2017 at 5:53 pm

    @Orogeny: It’s not a long term goal. It’s an idiotic idea.

    But let’s say I toss you a little rope. You have the following to work with.

    We stop ALL immigration tomorrow. Zero, nada.

    Now that we’ve done that, how do you plan to cull the US population by roughly 125 million people?

    A China like one child policy? Hell, even they’ve given up on that.

    You really need to school yourself on the definition of “Straw Man” because you aren’t using it correctly.

  44. 44.

    Dave

    February 7, 2017 at 5:54 pm

    @mai naem mobile: Cotton sets me off because I’ve served under his type. Not him specifically but that swarmy self promotion. I’m sure he lorded his position whenever he could and justified shitty decisions because he had authority to make them. In military I developed the heuristic that if you are justifying a decision with well you can legally make this choice it’s a 90% chance it’s a bad one. Of course I don’t know he was like that but I do I’ve seen how he Senate’s.

  45. 45.

    trollhattan

    February 7, 2017 at 5:55 pm

    I knew the day of Trumpfutation couldn’t be over yet.

    Fox News host Shepard Smith slammed President Donald Trump and White House press secretary Sean Spicer on Tuesday for his assertion that the media was ignoring terror attacks. He said Trump appeared to be echoing “fringe media” like the publications InfoWars and Breitbart.

    “In short, the president’s assertion is false,” Smith said. “The White House knows that it was false or could have learned that it was false with a quick Google check, but either did not do so or decided not to tell the truth.”

  46. 46.

    Mnemosyne

    February 7, 2017 at 5:55 pm

    @AnneW:

    Hmmm. KnitPicks was having a Red & Pink Sale for Valentine’s Day, so I picked up a skein or two of the various cotton-rich options from DK to Bulky. I see much test knitting in my future … ?

    If I do try for a simple lace pattern for ventilation, I may work the hat flat and then seam the sides so it keeps its shape better. Still deciding.

  47. 47.

    Davebo

    February 7, 2017 at 5:55 pm

    @Baud: More goals than one! ;0)

  48. 48.

    tobie

    February 7, 2017 at 5:57 pm

    @Chris:

    red counties have been on the dole, so to speak, for so long they don’t even realize it.

    This is so true. I never realized the extent of the subsidies until I learned that whether a farmer has a good growing season or a bad growing season the government pays for his crop insurance. There’s good reason for doing this (keep farmland farmland, prevent hasty development etc.). I just wish these folks wouldn’t insist they’ve done everything on their own and resent all other forms of assistance.

  49. 49.

    schrodingers_cat

    February 7, 2017 at 5:58 pm

    @Baud: Malthusian troll, advocates culling the herd.

  50. 50.

    Orogeny

    February 7, 2017 at 5:59 pm

    @Mnemosyne:

    I don’t know…maybe increase the cap on who pays Social Security taxes? I have no problem with paying a bit more. My question for you is this…is there an upper limit to the US population? Doe we have to simply keep getting more and more crowded and losing more and more of the quality of life that made this country such a wonderful placer to live…the wild spaces, the small towns, the winding country roads? Is it worth controlling our population to preserve some of that?

  51. 51.

    Major Major Major Major

    February 7, 2017 at 5:59 pm

    @Orogeny:

    I’m curious, do you see any reason at all to limit the population of the US? Should we pack people in like drupelets?

    Yawn. Call me when we’re anywhere close to running out of space. For now, into the troll filter with you.

    ETA: The google machines inform me that Orogeny has been a one-note troll slinging this particular shit since 2007. Which is kind of impressive!

  52. 52.

    Orogeny

    February 7, 2017 at 6:00 pm

    @Cacti:

    So uncontrolled population growth is the only answer?

  53. 53.

    Brachiator

    February 7, 2017 at 6:00 pm

    @tobie:

    WTF! Do people realize how much immigrants contribute to the economy or in their resentment do they just not care?

    People don’t care. And there’s a weird, blind denial at work as well. In Southern California, affluent parts of Orange County have a strong anti-immigrant sentiment, loved Trump, and voted for all kinds of anti-immigrant nastiness. Yet affluent Orange County people hire illegal alien workers in large numbers.

    There is all the BS about bad hombres and despicable crap about immigrant rapists and murderers, and yet these people are hired as household workers and trusted with the lives of everyone in the home, including children.

    It’s just insane.

  54. 54.

    Mnemosyne

    February 7, 2017 at 6:00 pm

    @Redshift:

    Uh, if Putin successfully murders a political opponent inside the United States, don’t we end up looking like assholes for not preventing it or — even worse — allowing it?

    It’s not like the British were thrilled when Putin murdered a guy with polonium-spiked tea within their borders.

  55. 55.

    trollhattan

    February 7, 2017 at 6:01 pm

    @Davebo:
    Don’t know why I’m bothering but…the only way to do it in a non-dictatorship is like Japan, where depopulation is threatening their very economy. They’re not fond of non-Japanese citizens so will need to rely on imported labor to keep the joint running.

    A depopulated rich country in an overpopulated world with millions of refugees at any given time will ultimately lose the ability to keep them out. Nature still hates a vacuum.

  56. 56.

    Orogeny

    February 7, 2017 at 6:01 pm

    @Major Major Major Major:

    SO, in your opinion, space is the only thing that matters? As long as everyone gets fed and has a roof over their heads, nothing else matters?

  57. 57.

    germy

    February 7, 2017 at 6:02 pm

    Doe we have to simply keep getting more and more crowded and losing more and more of the quality of life that made this country such a wonderful placer to live…the wild spaces, the small towns, the winding country roads?

    You forgot the babbling brooks.

  58. 58.

    efgoldman

    February 7, 2017 at 6:02 pm

    @Baud:

    Hopefully, a fringe benefit of Trump will be torpedoing the careers of people like Cotton.

    Have you seen the bullshit coming out of the Arkansas legislature? That’s the fecal ooze from which slugs like Cotton rise.

  59. 59.

    Major Major Major Major

    February 7, 2017 at 6:03 pm

    @Orogeny: Go fuck yourself! You’re annoying and pointless. You should leave the country, while you’re at it.

  60. 60.

    hilts

    February 7, 2017 at 6:03 pm

    OT

    An ice cream parlor in Philadelphia is rolling out a new option for its customers: the ImPeach Sundae. Franklin Fountain posted a photo of its new sundae option on Instagram.

    The sundae is made up of peach ice cream “smothered in nuts from the cabinet, with a side of our orange colored Tomato Ice Cream topped with Cheetos,” according to the Instagram post. “May be served with tiny demitasse spoon per request, to make any hands look huge,” the ice cream shop wrote in its Instagram caption, posted just weeks into President Trump’s term. A photo posted by Franklin Fountain (@franklinfountain) on Feb 6, 2017 at 11:26am PST The shop’s co-owner, Eric Berley, told Billy Penn he came up with the idea for the sundae with help from his brother and business partner, who recommended the inclusion of Cheetos.

    h/t http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/318335-philly-ice-cream-shop-rolls-out-impeach-sundae

  61. 61.

    Timurid

    February 7, 2017 at 6:03 pm

    @Baud: Giant Meteor will be tanned, rested and ready in 2020.

  62. 62.

    Davebo

    February 7, 2017 at 6:04 pm

    @tobie:

    There’s good reason for doing this (keep farmland farmland, prevent hasty development etc.)

    No, there’s not a good reason for doing this. In 2016 roughly 25% of net farming profit came from federal subsidies to the tune of almost 14 billion dollars.

    And that doesn’t include massive state based subsidies from various agricultural exemptions.

  63. 63.

    efgoldman

    February 7, 2017 at 6:04 pm

    @Orogeny:

    The USA has too damned many people here now.

    The answer is right in front of all our noses: SOYLENT GREEN!!

  64. 64.

    Roger Moore

    February 7, 2017 at 6:04 pm

    @Orogeny:

    American quality of life would be much improved if we could get our population back down below 200 million.

    Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.

  65. 65.

    Orogeny

    February 7, 2017 at 6:04 pm

    I’m curious, in arguing with wingnuts, one of the things I’ve always said in defense of Liberalism is that “No one is calling for open borders and unrestricted immigration.” Am I wrong about that?

  66. 66.

    germy

    February 7, 2017 at 6:04 pm

    @efgoldman: He wanted to “inflict pain” on Obama. Slug is a good description.

  67. 67.

    Mnemosyne

    February 7, 2017 at 6:05 pm

    @Orogeny:

    Doe we have to simply keep getting more and more crowded and losing more and more of the quality of life that made this country such a wonderful placer to live…the wild spaces, the small towns, the winding country roads?

    We’re not losing those things because of overpopulation. We’re losing them because nobody wants to pay taxes, which means our infrastructure is crumbling and jobs are fleeing from those places.

    You’ve bought into a pernicious lie that says we can have nice things AND low taxes as long as we get rid of 125 million people, but it’s a lie.

  68. 68.

    Brachiator

    February 7, 2017 at 6:05 pm

    @Orogeny:

    The USA has too damned many people here now. American quality of life would be much improved if we could get our population back down below 200 million.

    Horse puckey. Whenever someone gets on the overpopulation band wagon, I always want to ask what the population of each city and country should be.

    So uncontrolled population growth is the only answer?

    I don’t know. What’s the question?

    ETA: Appeal Court arguments on the immigration ban should start soon.

  69. 69.

    joel hanes

    February 7, 2017 at 6:05 pm

    @Davebo:

    Don’t intentionally be an ass.

    Without immigration, the US population would already be declining.
    That’s what happens when women are given autonomy, confidential access to reliable contraception, an education, and rights.

    I don’t advocate strong immigration restrictions. I do advocate strong support for all the factors that enable and encourage women to control their own fertility. The data says that will be enough, in the long term.

  70. 70.

    Orogeny

    February 7, 2017 at 6:06 pm

    @Major Major Major Major:

    What, exactly, did I say that merits a response like that? Is the idea of population control something that is now verboten on the left?

  71. 71.

    Major Major Major Major

    February 7, 2017 at 6:06 pm

    Do these guys all go to the same finishing school for sea-lion trolling? All sound same.

    ETA: HAHAHAAAHAHAHA see above, it’s perfect!

  72. 72.

    Mnemosyne

    February 7, 2017 at 6:06 pm

    @Brachiator:

    Orange County voted for Hillary this year. It was San Diego County and its military veterans that went for Trump.

  73. 73.

    Cacti

    February 7, 2017 at 6:07 pm

    @Brachiator:

    In Southern California, affluent parts of Orange County have a strong anti-immigrant sentiment, loved Trump, and voted for all kinds of anti-immigrant nastiness. Yet affluent Orange County people hire illegal alien workers in large numbers.

    Yep. One wonders at the level of cognitive dissonance it takes to be a rich, immigrant hater with a gardener named Jorge and a housekeeper named Lupe.

  74. 74.

    Millard Filmore

    February 7, 2017 at 6:07 pm

    @Davebo: If we start diving into fantasies, we could develop a school course in sex education, with instruction on how to use birth control devices, explain where babies come from, acknowledge that “Just Say No” does not work.

    I like my fantasy better.

  75. 75.

    Dave

    February 7, 2017 at 6:07 pm

    @Orogeny: Honestly this is a bad idea overall. Eventually population growth needs to end, barring some futuristic expansion into SPACE!, and it is happening we wouldn’t be growing currently without immigrants. What we should be doing is watching how countries that are going through this before us succeed and fail at it. And learn from them (because while indefinite population growth is not sustainable there are huge costs to a decreasing population) . I know I know unlikely. Details matter but broadly I could support significantly increased border controls if we did a blanket amnesty for anyone already here coupled with a fairly easy pathway to citizenship, coupled that with enforcement where it matters that is the demand aka the people that profit off of undocumented immigrants, coupled with a significant increase in legal immigration and refugees however not likely to happen and what those numbers and details should be well I’m not an expert it just fits my general approach to the world and policy, Just like in a different environment I would be supportive of a national ID coupled with automatic voter registration but in current one think a national ID would be a bad idea,

  76. 76.

    joel hanes

    February 7, 2017 at 6:08 pm

    @JMG:

    the western half has plenty of room for population growth.

    room, but no water.

  77. 77.

    Mnemosyne

    February 7, 2017 at 6:08 pm

    @Orogeny:

    Is the idea of population control something that is now verboten on the left?

    You are proposing that we magically rid ourselves of 125 million of our fellow Americans.

    That’s not “population control.” That’s genocide.

  78. 78.

    Orogeny

    February 7, 2017 at 6:08 pm

    @Major Major Major Major:

    OK, fine. Fuck you and the walrus you rode in on. I was trying to have a civil discussion.

  79. 79.

    schrodingers_cat

    February 7, 2017 at 6:10 pm

    Every thread seems to have a new troll to derail the conversation. I guess Siberian winters get boring in their monotony.

  80. 80.

    ChrisB

    February 7, 2017 at 6:11 pm

    I’m following the live stream of the 9th Circuit’s oral argument. I’m surprised at the poor start from the Justice department’s attorney. He’s stammering.

  81. 81.

    Orogeny

    February 7, 2017 at 6:11 pm

    @Mnemosyne: @Mnemosyne:

    I randomly picked a number that might be something we could shoot for over the next 150 years or so. There would be nothing “magical” about it.

  82. 82.

    amk

    February 7, 2017 at 6:11 pm

    @Orogeny: And I bet you call yourself a honest christian, amirite? Do you know us of a ranks in the bottom quarter of population density, you self absorbed selfish pos?

  83. 83.

    Major Major Major Major

    February 7, 2017 at 6:12 pm

    @schrodingers_cat: Putin’s upped the troll budget to distract us now that the protests are starting to work.

  84. 84.

    Cacti

    February 7, 2017 at 6:12 pm

    @Orogeny:

    Is the idea of population control something that is now verboten on the left?

    You’re advocating reduction, not control. And the level you have in mind would require either some truly draconian measures, or a modern equivalent of the black death.

  85. 85.

    joel hanes

    February 7, 2017 at 6:12 pm

    @Mnemosyne:

    You are proposing that we magically rid ourselves of 125 million of our fellow Americans.

    He is not. You are putting words in his mouth.

  86. 86.

    Orogeny

    February 7, 2017 at 6:12 pm

    @schrodingers_cat:

    My mistake. I thought the post at the top was talking, in part, about reducing legal immigration.

  87. 87.

    amk

    February 7, 2017 at 6:13 pm

    @Mnemosyne: Yup. And the troll is so casual about it. We should start with it topping the get rid of pesky population list.

  88. 88.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    February 7, 2017 at 6:13 pm

    @Baud: And yet, Dolt45 has sired 5 of them.

  89. 89.

    ChrisB

    February 7, 2017 at 6:13 pm

    Justice dept. attorney has nothing so far; admitting that there’s nothing in the record supporting his argument.

  90. 90.

    Formerly disgruntled in Oregon

    February 7, 2017 at 6:13 pm

    @joel hanes: Here, here!

  91. 91.

    Orogeny

    February 7, 2017 at 6:13 pm

    @Cacti:

    Doing that over, as I said, 3-5 generations would require something like the Black Death? Really?

  92. 92.

    Formerly disgruntled in Oregon

    February 7, 2017 at 6:14 pm

    @Formerly disgruntled in Oregon: or hear, hear (?)

  93. 93.

    Orogeny

    February 7, 2017 at 6:14 pm

    @amk:

    You really don’t read the comments, do you?

  94. 94.

    joel hanes

    February 7, 2017 at 6:14 pm

    @Cacti:

    You, and the other piling-on regulars, are usually better than this.
    Already we have strawman burning, content-free insults, and invitations to STFU.

  95. 95.

    Brachiator

    February 7, 2017 at 6:15 pm

    @Mnemosyne:

    Orange County voted for Hillary this year. It was San Diego County and its military veterans that went for Trump.

    I made clear I was talking about the affluent Republican sections of Orange County. This is the demographic that, for example, is wild for the right wing noise that comes from the John and Ken show on KFI, the people who came out for hugely attended debate watching parties.

  96. 96.

    Davebo

    February 7, 2017 at 6:16 pm

    @joel hanes:

    Without immigration, the US population would already be declining.

    The US birthrate is at the exact same point it was in 1973. Over that period of time it’s gone up, dipped down, etc.

    Some troll suggest culling over 1/3 of our population and your response is I’m “intentionally being an ass”??

    Pardon me if I ask you to roll one for the group to share.

  97. 97.

    Mnemosyne

    February 7, 2017 at 6:16 pm

    @joel hanes:

    He said we need to reduce our population to 200 million. We currently have a population of about 325 million.

    I’m bollocks at math, but even I can do that equation.

  98. 98.

    Orogeny

    February 7, 2017 at 6:16 pm

    @joel hanes:

    I appreciate that. I had no intention to troll anyone. I thought that the topic of the post was limiting legal immigration, and I gave an honest opinion.

  99. 99.

    joel hanes

    February 7, 2017 at 6:17 pm

    @amk:

    the get rid of pesky population list.

    Only you have mentioned such a thing.
    Does it bother you to stoop to the same dishonest tactics as the “death-panel” opponents of the ACA?

  100. 100.

    trollhattan

    February 7, 2017 at 6:17 pm

    Damnit, Melissa McCarthy may already be out of a job.

    The White House is ramping up its search for a new communications director in an effort to lighten the load of embattled White House press secretary Sean Spicer, multiple sources told CNN. A source familiar with internal communications said President Donald Trump is disappointed in Spicer’s performance during the first two weeks of the administration. Spicer has served as both White House press secretary and communications director for the new administration. Those roles are typically filled by two staffers.

    Former Trump transition spokesman Jason Miller was originally tapp ed to serve as communications director for the White House, but Miller stepped aside before Inauguration Day to spend more time with his family.

  101. 101.

    trollhattan

    February 7, 2017 at 6:18 pm

    Damnit, Melissa McCarthy may already be out of a job

    The White House is ramping up its search for a new communications director in an effort to lighten the load of embattled White House press secretary Sean Spicer, multiple sources told CNN. A source familiar with internal communications said President Donald Trump is disappointed in Spicer’s performance during the first two weeks of the administration. Spicer has served as both White House press secretary and communications director for the new administration. Those roles are typically filled by two staffers.

    Former Trump transition spokesman Jason Miller was originally tapped to serve as communications director for the White House, but Miller stepped aside before Inauguration Day to spend more time with his family.

    –CNN

  102. 102.

    Orogeny

    February 7, 2017 at 6:18 pm

    @Mnemosyne:

    I have said repeatedly that I just picked that number randomly as a possible goal…something we could try to get to over a century or so. Dickweeds like you keep acting as though I said that we could reduce the population that much in a day or so.

  103. 103.

    Brachiator

    February 7, 2017 at 6:18 pm

    @Orogeny:

    My mistake. I thought the post at the top was talking, in part, about reducing legal immigration.

    Yep. You are right. But even here, what’s the point of reducing legal immigration?

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Every thread seems to have a new troll to derail the conversation.

    It’s an open thread. What’s to derail?

  104. 104.

    joel hanes

    February 7, 2017 at 6:18 pm

    @Mnemosyne:

    I stand by my characterization of your comment.

  105. 105.

    trollhattan

    February 7, 2017 at 6:19 pm

    Damnit, Melissa McCarthy may already be out of a job.

    The White House is ramping up its search for a new communications director in an effort to lighten the load of embattled White House press secretary Sean Spicer, multiple sources told CNN. A source familiar with internal communications said President Donald Trump is disappointed in Spicer’s performance during the first two weeks of the administration. Spicer has served as both White House press secretary and communications director for the new administration. Those roles are typically filled by two staf fers.

    Former Trump transition spokesman Jason Miller was originally tapped to serve as communications director for the White House, but Miller stepped aside before Inauguration Day to spend more time with his family.

  106. 106.

    trollhattan

    February 7, 2017 at 6:19 pm

    Damnit, Melissa McCarthy may already be out of a job.

    The White House is ramping up its search for a new communications director in an effort to lighten the load of embattled White House press secretary Sean Spicer, multiple sources told C NN. A source familiar with internal communications said President Donald Trump is disappointed in Spicer’s performa nce during the first two weeks of the administration. Spicer has served as both White House press secretary and communications director for the new administration. Those roles are typically filled by two staffers.

    Former Trump transition spokesman Jason Miller was originally tapped to serve as communications director for the White House, but Miller stepped aside before Inauguration Day to spend more time with his family.

  107. 107.

    Orogeny

    February 7, 2017 at 6:19 pm

    @Davebo: \

    Fuck you you lying sack of shit. I never said a thing about “culling over 1/3 of our population.”

  108. 108.

    Cacti

    February 7, 2017 at 6:19 pm

    @Orogeny:

    Doing that over, as I said, 3-5 generations would require something like the Black Death? Really?

    Yes, reducing the national population by 1/3 even over a prolonged period would require either a major die off event, or reducing birthrates so drastically that there would be nowhere near enough of a working age population to support the social programs our significantly aged national population would depend on.

  109. 109.

    joel hanes

    February 7, 2017 at 6:19 pm

    @Davebo:

    Some troll suggest culling over 1/3 of our population

    Not what he said. Not even remotely.

  110. 110.

    amk

    February 7, 2017 at 6:20 pm

    @joel hanes: and you are so naive about the troll’s intentions.

  111. 111.

    trollhattan

    February 7, 2017 at 6:20 pm

    Damnit, Melissa McCarthy may already be out of a job.

    Had a pull quote but FYWP is preventing its inclusion.

  112. 112.

    Mnemosyne

    February 7, 2017 at 6:20 pm

    @Orogeny:

    We can’t even reduce it by that much over 150 years unless drastic measures — like genocide, or a one-child policy with forced abortions and sterilizations — are taken. Do you know anything about this topic at all?

  113. 113.

    Major Major Major Major

    February 7, 2017 at 6:20 pm

    @joel hanes: Here is a thread from 2007 with the same poster saying the same things, if you’re curious how it’s going to play out. As for me, I have better things to do.

  114. 114.

    Brachiator

    February 7, 2017 at 6:21 pm

    For anyone interested:

    Listen Live: Oral Arguments For Trump Immigration Ban Hearing, Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals

  115. 115.

    Mnemosyne

    February 7, 2017 at 6:21 pm

    @joel hanes:

    I think you’re giving the troll way too much credit.

  116. 116.

    schrodingers_cat

    February 7, 2017 at 6:22 pm

    If people think that US government hands out Green Cards or Legal Permanent Resident status like candy they are wrong.

  117. 117.

    Farthestnorth

    February 7, 2017 at 6:22 pm

    ooh fun. CNN is carrying 9th Circuit oral argument

  118. 118.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    February 7, 2017 at 6:22 pm

    @Mnemosyne:

    Orange County voted for Hillary this year. It was San Diego County and its military veterans that went for Trump.

    Brachiator isn’t talking about Santa Ana, more like Newport Beach.

  119. 119.

    amk

    February 7, 2017 at 6:22 pm

    @Orogeny: And you know jacksquat about population control, except blather on somehow to ‘reduce it’. You could start off first. How about it?

  120. 120.

    Major Major Major Major

    February 7, 2017 at 6:23 pm

    @Farthestnorth: I find this surprising and encouraging.

  121. 121.

    Formerly disgruntled in Oregon

    February 7, 2017 at 6:23 pm

    Immigration is GOOD for the USA! That’s my opinion.

  122. 122.

    Millard Filmore

    February 7, 2017 at 6:23 pm

    @Dave:

    indefinite population growth is not sustainable

    Ok all you math wizards, at the current compound interest style of population increase, how many thousands of years will it take before we would have to convert the entire mass of the visible universe to human form?

    In the 1980s I read (sorry but do not recall where) that it would be about 8,000 years.

  123. 123.

    Orogeny

    February 7, 2017 at 6:23 pm

    @Brachiator:

    Reduction in legal immigration would just be a part of a long-term strategy to reduce the population of the United States. As AI becomes more powerful, and automation becomes more widely implemented, it seems to me that part of the strategy fro reducing the number of people who don’t have productive jobs {a la Player Piano) would be to reduce the number of people.

  124. 124.

    Davebo

    February 7, 2017 at 6:23 pm

    @Millard Filmore:

    I’m all for proactive sex education in schools. But seriously, kids these days know what birth control is and know the ramifications of unprotected sex.

    No amount of schooling is going to transform horny teenagers into not horny teenagers.

    That’s the point behind ridicule of the Just Say No approach.

  125. 125.

    ruckus

    February 7, 2017 at 6:24 pm

    @Cacti:
    I was going there.
    We could do a GoFundMe for one way ticket. All the motherfuckers who think someone else should leave, get a free one way, no return ticket.

  126. 126.

    Barbara

    February 7, 2017 at 6:25 pm

    @Farthestnorth: guardian is live tracking.

  127. 127.

    Orogeny

    February 7, 2017 at 6:25 pm

    @Mnemosyne:

    OK, so we try for 250 million, or 300 million. I have said repeatedly that the number was just a random pick. I didn’t realize that I was writing law when I composed thew comment.

  128. 128.

    Davebo

    February 7, 2017 at 6:26 pm

    @Orogeny:

    The third rule of holes. If you find yourself using the term “dickweeds” you’re probably in one.

  129. 129.

    debbie

    February 7, 2017 at 6:27 pm

    Perhaps the people who think there are too many people here should be the ones to leave. They’ve certainly stopped espousing American principles.

  130. 130.

    Davebo

    February 7, 2017 at 6:28 pm

    @Orogeny:

    Reduction in legal immigration would just be a part of a long-term strategy to reduce the population of the United States.

    We are still waiting for you to share the other parts with us. Come on, you’ve got Joel out on a limb now. Don’t let him down!

  131. 131.

    ChrisB

    February 7, 2017 at 6:28 pm

    Wow, the Justice Dept.’s lawyer is getting slaughtered. He’s already on his fallback position.

  132. 132.

    Orogeny

    February 7, 2017 at 6:28 pm

    @Davebo:

    I have been cursed at repeatedly by people here simply for offering an opinion that differed from theirs. Apparenlty not being a part of the hivemind is considered to be “trolling” here.

  133. 133.

    chris

    February 7, 2017 at 6:29 pm

    @Mnemosyne: I’m waiting for the spirited defence of a return to the gold standard or maybe, “trickle down will work if we give it a real chance.”
    Removing consumers from an economy that is 70% consumer-driven will surely work as soon as we find the dilithium crystals. Or something.

  134. 134.

    amk

    February 7, 2017 at 6:31 pm

    @Orogeny: You are out of your usual swamp, cretin.

  135. 135.

    Formerly disgruntled in Oregon

    February 7, 2017 at 6:31 pm

    @Orogeny: Hate to feed you, but REALLY?!! Only people with “productive jobs” are of worth to you? Life is more than work.

  136. 136.

    Cain

    February 7, 2017 at 6:31 pm

    @Mnemosyne:

    So, again, what is your proposal to continue supporting the population we already have?

    Robots! Seriously, this article claims that 16% of the global population will be over 65.

    Orogeny, as the world gets more education, the population goes down as more family planning comes to the fore. There is no reason to even bring this up at all. Finally, diversity is what gives the U.S the edge against everyone else. Immigration is what refreshes our population with vigor. Source: I am an immigrant, and so is my father, and my family.

  137. 137.

    Farthestnorth

    February 7, 2017 at 6:32 pm

    @schrodingers_cat: Yes to this. Two of my kids married foreigners. Son in law from Sweden Daughter in law from Germany. Obvious love matches with higher education and job offers. Even so the paperwork etc is crazy

  138. 138.

    Orogeny

    February 7, 2017 at 6:32 pm

    @Davebo:

    Not that it matters anymore, but I would suggest education campaigns that encourage people to have fewer children. Promote the use of effective contraceptives, both for men and women. Make small families something that people WANT to have, instead of glamorizing breeding factories like the Duggers. In a free society, we are limited in what we can do, but it still can be done.

    Is that really all that terrible of a thing to suggest?

  139. 139.

    Major Major Major Major

    February 7, 2017 at 6:32 pm

    @Millard Filmore:

    Ok all you math wizards, at the current compound interest style of population increase, how many thousands of years will it take before we would have to convert the entire mass of the visible universe to human form?

    Well, most estimates have it capping out around 10 billion, if that, by 2050, but that requires slightly more complicated math.

  140. 140.

    debbie

    February 7, 2017 at 6:32 pm

    @Barbara:

    Love this:

    David Cole @DavidColeACLU
    9th Cir. argt. Ct: Why can’t state sue on behalf of its citizens?
    Govt: long silence

  141. 141.

    schrodingers_cat

    February 7, 2017 at 6:32 pm

    Orogeny is testing the waters for the new executive order to deport children and old people who use food stamps.

  142. 142.

    Brachiator

    February 7, 2017 at 6:32 pm

    @Major Major Major Major:

    Here is a thread from 2007 with the same poster saying the same things

    Damn, I guess I will be nailed when I start repeating myself.

  143. 143.

    Cacti

    February 7, 2017 at 6:34 pm

    @Formerly disgruntled in Oregon:

    Hate to feed you, but REALLY?!! Only people with “productive jobs” are of worth to you? Life is more than work.

    That does create some possibilities though. So far, the population reduction discussion has been focused entirely on the front end (keeping fertile young people from making babies). Not enough discussion about the back end. Mandatory euthanization after age 75. We’ll just call it pruning the dead branches from the national tree.

    (not serious in case you were wondering)

  144. 144.

    Dave

    February 7, 2017 at 6:35 pm

    @Orogeny: So basically what every first world nation already has. Do you actually know anything about global demographic trends? And how economies will have to be very different with a stable population and increased automation?

  145. 145.

    Orogeny

    February 7, 2017 at 6:35 pm

    @Formerly disgruntled in Oregon: \
    Oh Jesus!!! This is ridiculous. Read the book I referenced. It has nothing to do with how I value people, it has to do with how people value their own lives. People, in general, WANT to work for their living. They want to do work that they feel has value. Don’t you..I do. I was saying that if you have less people over all, some of the issues that comes about as we start running out of those sorts of jobs…or any jobs for the majority of people.

  146. 146.

    Baud

    February 7, 2017 at 6:35 pm

    @Cacti: Half a Life

  147. 147.

    Aleta

    February 7, 2017 at 6:36 pm

    One source for the livestream immigration hearing in WA:http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/media/view_video.php?pk_vid=0000010884

  148. 148.

    japa21

    February 7, 2017 at 6:36 pm

    I wonder if the person arguing for the government is a Sally Yates fan.

  149. 149.

    Brachiator

    February 7, 2017 at 6:36 pm

    @Orogeny:

    Not that it matters anymore, but I would suggest education campaigns that encourage people to have fewer children.

    People are already having fewer children. Education, especially educating women, pretty much takes care of it.

    And access to reproductive choices.

  150. 150.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    February 7, 2017 at 6:36 pm

    @Orogeny:

    Is that really all that terrible of a thing to suggest?

    As pointed out earlier, it’s working out well for Japan.

  151. 151.

    Cain

    February 7, 2017 at 6:37 pm

    @joel hanes:
    This. (not the comment about being an ass, the women argument)

  152. 152.

    Redshift

    February 7, 2017 at 6:37 pm

    @Mnemosyne:

    Uh, if Putin successfully murders a political opponent inside the United States, don’t we end up looking like assholes for not preventing it or — even worse — allowing it?

    Well, yes, but the point is that wingnuts keep pointing to Kasparov as their example of “Putin allows dissent!” because they’re too dumb to realize that just because he talks about Russia doesn’t mean he’s in Russia. If they knew he’s only free to dissent publicly because he left the country, I doubt they’d be as big on using him as an example.

  153. 153.

    debbie

    February 7, 2017 at 6:37 pm

    @Aleta:

    Or, for Politicophobes: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2017/feb/08/trump-travel-ban-appeal-court-suspension-live

  154. 154.

    hovercraft

    February 7, 2017 at 6:37 pm

    @Baud:
    Repeal birthright citizenship, make them prove their worth, if they cn’t ship back to where they came from, or where their parents came from. See it’s simple, you make sure that the browns, blacks and yellows have the shittiest schools, jobs and healthcare, then when they need additional help from the government you use that as proof that they are a drain on the nation and presto you can deport them. The only snag with the plan is that the VAST majority of people draining society are white, so you would end up needing to deport a whole bunch of white people. Since they also tend to be the people who are the most rib rock FREEDOM living among us, good luck getting them to leave.

  155. 155.

    Citizen_X

    February 7, 2017 at 6:39 pm

    @Orogeny: WTF does keeping immigrants out of the US have to do with global population? That’s kind of the problem, you know. We have a global economy, globally-sourced resources, and global, uh, climate change.

    Throughout the world, developing countries have growing populations (though not as fast-growing as they used to be), and developed countries have flat or declining population rates. So there’s going to be pressure for immigration into developed countries for the foreseeable future. Developing countries have cut growth rates, but still have all the people born from the 60s to 90s breeding. Your solutions for the US do nothing for the global problem.

  156. 156.

    Roger Moore

    February 7, 2017 at 6:39 pm

    @Dave:

    In military I developed the heuristic that if you are justifying a decision with well you can legally make this choice it’s a 90% chance it’s a bad one.

    Is it really that low? I’d think it would be within epsilon of 100%. I think it’s about the same as defending one’s statements by pointing to the First Amendment. If the best defense of a statement is that it isn’t actually illegal, the speaker would be much better off keeping their trap shut.

  157. 157.

    Major Major Major Major

    February 7, 2017 at 6:40 pm

    @Brachiator: I only ever check for that sort of thing when I get a strong whiff of trolling. You’d (perhaps) be surprised how often they turn out to be a repeat offender.

    We have our disagreements but I’d never call you a troll!

  158. 158.

    Villago Delenda Est

    February 7, 2017 at 6:41 pm

    @Mnemosyne: Steven vs. Stephen. Meh.

  159. 159.

    Orogeny

    February 7, 2017 at 6:42 pm

    It is amazing. A lot of you people are exactly like the members of the Trump cult. Anything that goes against your ideological preconceptions must be lies coming from the other side…evil that must be stomped out. There is no room in your world for the slightest deviation from what YOU consider to be the proper mindset. I am a Liberal Democrat and have said nothing here that hasn’t been said by thousands of other environmental advocates over the last century or so, but saying it here today…suddenly I’m a right wing troll.

    Bless your hearts.

  160. 160.

    Miss Bianca

    February 7, 2017 at 6:42 pm

    @Orogeny: Oh, FFS…you and your “wouldn’t it be wonderful if we went back to the 1950s” schtick again. Hellloo, sunshine…do you actually *live* out in these sticks that you’re extolling, with the wide-open spaces and rolling roads or whatever the fuck it is you’re on about?

    Cuz I do – population <5,000 in my red red county. And I'm here to tell you – we could stand to absorb *a lot* more people out here. It would stop the aging of our current population/tax base, help in the development of the economy and who knows? We might even elect a Democrat to public office before the turn of the next century!

  161. 161.

    Dave

    February 7, 2017 at 6:43 pm

    @Roger Moore: I should have typed 95% sometimes in some situations the decision that is dickish is actually right though that 5% includes correct decisions that should be explained better. Communicating whenever possible as much as possible tends to decrease most problems if the problem isn’t that the leadership has it’s head up it’s ass. People will work well for leaders they dislike but respect.

  162. 162.

    Brachiator

    February 7, 2017 at 6:44 pm

    @?BillinGlendaleCA:

    Brachiator isn’t talking about Santa Ana, more like Newport Beach.

    And places like Laguna Nigel, etc. I had a co-worker who lived in Irvine, and who (along with her family) had a huge fear of an unwashed horde of undeserving illegals coming to take all that she had worked so hard for.

    But you also regularly saw immigrants assembling at Home Depot stores and affluent whites riding up in vans to hire day workers. I think one city even made improvements so that workers could assemble comfortably.

    But some of these same people would call into talk radio and complain about immigrants.

    Just nuts.

  163. 163.

    Orogeny

    February 7, 2017 at 6:45 pm

    @Miss Bianca:

    So the fact that I have a different opinion makes me a right-wing troll? Is that the way it works here?

  164. 164.

    Roger Moore

    February 7, 2017 at 6:45 pm

    @joel hanes:

    Without immigration, the US population would already be declining.
    That’s what happens when women are given autonomy, confidential access to reliable contraception, an education, and rights.

    Some rights. When women are also given access to reasonably-priced child care, guaranteed maternity leave, protection against losing their job because they have children, and reasonable working hours, they choose to have enough children to keep the population from declining.

  165. 165.

    rikyrah

    February 7, 2017 at 6:45 pm

    @trollhattan:
    I want a woman to play President Bannon

  166. 166.

    Shana

    February 7, 2017 at 6:46 pm

    @Major Major Major Major: So he’s been doing his crap for 10 years and still hasn’t come up with any realistic solutions to what he sees as this problem? Great.

  167. 167.

    Orogeny

    February 7, 2017 at 6:47 pm

    @rikyrah:

    Rosie O’Donnell just offered to do that for SNL.

  168. 168.

    trollhattan

    February 7, 2017 at 6:47 pm

    Interrupting the population reduction discussion to revisit the Cold War. The Americans returneth. Add a little Better Call Saul and I can find happiness again.

  169. 169.

    Millard Filmore

    February 7, 2017 at 6:48 pm

    @Major Major Major Major:

    Well, most estimates have it capping out around 10 billion, if that, by 2050, but that requires slightly more complicated math.

    Without getting into the pros and cons of the population control debate, either we humans will have to take care of this peaceably amongst ourselves or Mother Nature will step in and solve the problem for us. From what you say, our hard limit is not that far off.

  170. 170.

    Brachiator

    February 7, 2017 at 6:48 pm

    @Orogeny:

    Anything that goes against your ideological preconceptions must be lies coming from the other side…evil that must be stomped out

    I don’t see you as evil. And it’s not just that I disagree with you, I don’t think you have a coherent argument, especially about limiting legal immigration.

    I don’t think some of the more hostile replies were fair, for what it’s worth.

  171. 171.

    trollhattan

    February 7, 2017 at 6:49 pm

    @rikyrah:
    Yup, make it a recurring role because that bastard isn’t leaving the WH unless it’s toes-first.

  172. 172.

    Orogeny

    February 7, 2017 at 6:50 pm

    @Shana:

    Do you have a detailed “realistic” solution figured out for everything you have an opinion on? My god, I offered an opinion about something…the same opinion I’ve had for decades on that particular issue. Apparently I committed thoughtcrime. I apologize…I swear, I love Big Brother.

  173. 173.

    Orogeny

    February 7, 2017 at 6:52 pm

    @Brachiator:

    We never had a chance to discuss what I actually think. Immediately upon my disagreeing with the hivemind, I was simply defending myself from personal attacks.

  174. 174.

    Cain

    February 7, 2017 at 6:52 pm

    @Orogeny:
    The point is, why even reduce at all? And why target immigration? Do you feel they are coming here and making babies?

  175. 175.

    efgoldman

    February 7, 2017 at 6:53 pm

    @joel hanes:

    room, but no water.

    The Western half of Mass? Plenty of water.
    The Western half (or a bit less) of the country? Yeah, you got a point.

  176. 176.

    trollhattan

    February 7, 2017 at 6:54 pm

    @Cain:
    Remember the Duggars? They were fun! Babies squirting out every which way.

    Save the Duggars! On second thought….

  177. 177.

    Major Major Major Major

    February 7, 2017 at 6:54 pm

    @Shana: It’s almost like he’s doing it to stir shit, not have a conversation!

  178. 178.

    Brachiator

    February 7, 2017 at 6:55 pm

    @trollhattan:

    Remember the Duggars? They were fun! Babies squirting out every which way.

    And Octo-mom!

  179. 179.

    efgoldman

    February 7, 2017 at 6:56 pm

    @ChrisB:

    I’m surprised at the poor start from the Justice department’s attorney.

    It’s really difficult to defend an indefensible proposition.

  180. 180.

    trollhattan

    February 7, 2017 at 6:56 pm

    @efgoldman:
    Speaking of the wet stuff, NorCal is literally awash and our NWS forecast is “flood warning” the next five days. They skipped flood watch this time.

    We’re that saturated sponge that won’t absorb another drop, rain just runs right off.

  181. 181.

    Percysowner

    February 7, 2017 at 6:56 pm

    I don’t know if this will go anywhere, but in this Brave New World who knows New Legislation Abolishes Department of Education by End of 2018.

  182. 182.

    Retr2327

    February 7, 2017 at 6:56 pm

    @Orogeny: well, among other issues, I hope you’re not looking forward to collecting your Social Security. Part of what keeps the system more or less viable is an influx of immigrants (legal and “illegal”). Without them, the demographics of a stable, let alone declining, population play havoc with the input/output figures of the system.

  183. 183.

    hovercraft

    February 7, 2017 at 6:57 pm

    @Orogeny:
    Annual birth rate in US approx 4 million
    Annual deaths in US approx 2.4 million
    Annual immigration to US approx 1 million

    So even if we stopped all legal immigration today, the population would continue to grow. One of the reasons for our continued growth while other developed countries are stagnant, is immigration, we are not aging as fast as them. Much of our growth and dynamism is fueled by immigration. As for controlling our birth rate, good luck telling people they have to stop having as many kids as they want. Yes global population is growing to fast, and the planet is having a hard time keeping up with our food and especially water consumption, but that is a global challenge, not an American one. North America is not where we have a population explosion
    .
    Source: Continents and Population Density
    From 2014
    Asia 43,820,000 16,920,000 4,164,252,000
    Africa 30,370,000 11,730,000 1,022,234,000
    North America 24,490,000 9,460,000 542,056,000
    South America 17,840,000 6,890,000 392,555,000
    Antarctica 13,720,000 5,300,000 0*
    Europe 10,180,000 3,930,000 738,199,000
    Australia 9,008,500 3,478,200 29,127,000

    ETA table got messed up headers are pop. in kilometer, miles, per something and actual pop.

  184. 184.

    Davebo

    February 7, 2017 at 6:57 pm

    @Orogeny:

    Which version of “what you think” should we be considering at this point?

    You’re opinion went from reduce the US population to 200 million initially to some figure that may be less than that but hasn’t been determined by you yet.

    Apparently you’ve thought about this for a decade or so, yet you have no idea what the ideal US population should be, nor any ideas about how to reach that ideal level other than restricting immigration.

    A decade is a long time to spend coming up with what is essentially nothing other than a notion that we have too many people.

  185. 185.

    Baud

    February 7, 2017 at 6:58 pm

    We haven’t had a good debate over the merits of circumcision in a while.

  186. 186.

    Cain

    February 7, 2017 at 6:58 pm

    @Orogeny:

    It is amazing. A lot of you people are exactly like the members of the Trump cult. Anything that goes against your ideological preconceptions must be lies coming from the other side…evil that must be stomped out. There is no room in your world for the slightest deviation from what YOU consider to be the proper mindset. I am a Liberal Democrat and have said nothing here that hasn’t been said by thousands of other environmental advocates over the last century or so, but saying it here today…suddenly I’m a right wing troll.

    Some of us may have treated you that way, but others didn’t but it still didn’t pass intellectual vigor. Also, you really do need to set the stage before making a claim like that. Nobody here has tolerance for bullshit.

  187. 187.

    Major Major Major Major

    February 7, 2017 at 6:58 pm

    Orogeny still hasn’t managed to crack taking up 1/3 of the thread. Low-energy, sad!

    ETA: @Baud: Andrew Sullivan, is that you?

  188. 188.

    Orogeny

    February 7, 2017 at 6:59 pm

    @Cain:

    My PERSONAL opinion is that the increasing population is leading to a decline in the quality of life for a lot of people. I did not say we should specifically target immigration, but that a reduction in immigration could be a part of a long-term strategy to stabilize and then reduce the population to a level that would maintain the quality of life that many of us desire, while having no negative effect on those who like the crowds and hustle of big cities. There was nothing in my comment to suggest that I wanted to get rid of immigrants, or do anything draconian to quickly reduce our population. I picked 200 million randomly, just a number I pulled out of the air to signify that I though a significantly lower population for our country would be better for all. I’m still confused as to what I said that made so many here SO angry.

  189. 189.

    Miss Bianca

    February 7, 2017 at 7:00 pm

    @Orogeny: No, it’s the fact that you’re some creamy and non-delicious blend of ass and sea-lion that makes you look like a troll. You show up here meeping about the need for “population control”, it’s repeatedly pointed out to you that everything you’re advocating is either already underway naturally (higher education rate among women leads to fewer births per capita without some sort of state-sponsored coersion or propaganda effort – WHO KNEW that the ladies might be able to think for themselves on this one?) or won’t actually work the way you think it will (see, aging of industrial populations in countries that limit immigraton, Japan as prime example), then you get mad when we tell you, “hey, your shitty ideas are shitty”.

    And you KEEP ON GOING with your dopey and despicable party line despite all that. Yeah, that does sound like a right-wing troll. Guess you answered your own question on that one.

  190. 190.

    TriassicSands

    February 7, 2017 at 7:00 pm

    I’m listening to the appeals court argument concerning the travel ban (which is not a ban because those are “your words”). It should come as no surprise that the judge appointed by George W. Bush sounds very hostile to those opposed to the ban.

  191. 191.

    MisterForkbeard

    February 7, 2017 at 7:02 pm

    @Timurid: Fuck Giant Meteor. I hate this meme with the passion of a thousand fiery suns. It reinforces that idea that both candidates are awful and unacceptable, where in reality we usually have someone who wants to perform policies that America generally likes VS a sociopathic asshole who wants to give everyone’s money to rich people.

    But this goddamned meme just encourages every bit of stupid “both sides do it”, “both sides are just as bad” or “democrats are ALSO corrupt, let’s vote for Stein” that I saw from all my too-lefty friends. Fuck that mindset.

  192. 192.

    Baud

    February 7, 2017 at 7:02 pm

    @TriassicSands: The district court judge was a W appointee.

  193. 193.

    Major Major Major Major

    February 7, 2017 at 7:03 pm

    @TriassicSands: The judge who issued the injunction last week was appointed by George W. Bush…

    ETA: Beaten by Baud!.

  194. 194.

    Orogeny

    February 7, 2017 at 7:03 pm

    @Cain: @Davebo: @Davebo:

    What is the exact number of immigrants that should enter the US each year. Exactly how many refugees should be admitted and to which cities should they be sent? How many refugees should be sent to each individual city, and exactly what should be done in terms of assisting them? WHO thinks like that who isn’t directly involved in that sort of work?

  195. 195.

    cosima

    February 7, 2017 at 7:03 pm

    @Brachiator: The (affluent) shithole where we lived in TX was not far from a Home Depot (across the highway/tracks). As you say, there were loads of Hispanics there buying things for the work they were doing, or being hired to do work (from the parking lot). Worse, in my mind, was the fact that less than a mile down the road from the HD was a community, Tamina, where some residents still lived without running water &/or electricity. I’m sure I don’t need to explain how most of our neighbours voted. I actually wrote the head of the Post Office to complain about being subjected to Limbaugh when going to the local branch. Must have got scolded because it was gone (probably to a back office) on later trips there.

    All of our donations (computers, furniture, clothing, etc) went to Tamina rather than the many church-y collections in the community.

    I hated that soul-sucking place.

  196. 196.

    hovercraft

    February 7, 2017 at 7:03 pm

    @trollhattan:
    But, but she’s just warming up, lets start a petition demanding he stay on!! We need him for the laughs.

  197. 197.

    SFAW

    February 7, 2017 at 7:04 pm

    @Major Major Major Major:

    Here is a thread from 2007 with the same poster saying the same things, if you’re curious how it’s going to play out. As for me, I have better things to do.

    And just think! If we had followed newtrolls suggestions (such as they were) for genocide culling one-child veeblefetzer judicious and not-at-all-drastic, humane, no-harm-no-foul reduction of the US population by about 40 percent (not one-third) in some timeframe to-be-named-later, then we can all live off the fat of the land! Well, if newtroll had legit suggestions, that is.

    OK, now that we’ve solved that: next topic: wouldn’t it be great if we could all become skillionaires over the next 20 years? What do y’all think? And how should we do it?

    Asking for a friend.

  198. 198.

    amk

    February 7, 2017 at 7:05 pm

    Both sides are saying there is too little time to produce all the details the court is asking for. Are the judges right asking for these details amidst the chaos?

  199. 199.

    Jack the Second

    February 7, 2017 at 7:06 pm

    @Orogeny:

    Do we have to simply keep getting more and more crowded and losing more and more of the quality of life that made this country such a wonderful placer to live…the wild spaces, the small towns, the winding country roads?

    Have you *been* to a small town?

    I live in a small town. What is killing it is that it has lost over 10% of its population in the last 10 years. And it is on a commuter rail line to New York!

    There’s a handful of metropolitan areas (NY, LA, SF, TX) which have been overtaken by the sprawl of urban growth, but most small towns are losing population, and that’s just as much a consequence of internal migration as immigration. Are you suggesting that be stopped too, that Hoosier farm boys no longer be allowed to move to the big city? Should we cap all city populations at their 1950 levels and forciblyove people to small towns to meet their quotas?

    If anything is killing small towns it is capital mobility, not labor mobility. My small town was dealt what may be a deathblow when IBM abruptly closed up shop and fired thousands of people. If you want to save the small town, you need to find a way to convince capital to not just return manufacturing to this country but to also abandon automation in favor of large, expensive, unionized workforces.

  200. 200.

    efgoldman

    February 7, 2017 at 7:06 pm

    @Davebo:

    kids these days know what birth control is and know the ramifications of unprotected sex.

    Do they really? I mean, up here, where they teach facts and science and stuff, they usually do, but all those kids who’ve been brainwashed in the waters of holy roller, anti-science, anti-fact life, what do they do?
    Besides get pregnant and have kids before they turn 18, that nobody can support, I mean.

  201. 201.

    Retr2327

    February 7, 2017 at 7:06 pm

    @Orogeny: you need to get out west a bit more. If you’re worried about running out of lebensraum, so to speak, there’s no shortage of open space still available. Maybe in Idaho; that Rep. Steve King seems nice . . .

  202. 202.

    Brachiator

    February 7, 2017 at 7:07 pm

    @Major Major Major Major:

    I only ever check for that sort of thing when I get a strong whiff of trolling. You’d (perhaps) be surprised how often they turn out to be a repeat offender.

    Makes sense. Also, on the Internets and elsewhere, some people just have their pet theories and obsessions that they like to massage all the time. It’s not always trolling. People just have their thing.

    We have our disagreements but I’d never call you a troll!

    Appreciate that!

  203. 203.

    Major Major Major Major

    February 7, 2017 at 7:07 pm

    @SFAW:

    wouldn’t it be great if we could all become skillionaires over the next 20 years? What do y’all think? And how should we do it?

    Bitcoin!

    @Brachiator:

    Makes sense. Also, on the Internets and elsewhere, some people just have their pet theories and obsessions that they like to massage all the time. It’s not always trolling. People just have their thing.

    This is the only thing this particular user posts here about.

    ETA: I’m not obsessing, it’s just a quick Google search and scanning the results. Ten seconds.

  204. 204.

    hovercraft

    February 7, 2017 at 7:09 pm

    @trollhattan:
    They are part of an effort to produce a more white christian America, to take the country back so to speak from us godless liberals.
    @Brachiator:
    She’s just a crazy person who kept spitting out kids, I’m pretty sure she had mental issues which is why the doctor who gave her the octuplets was struck off.

  205. 205.

    Bostondreams

    February 7, 2017 at 7:10 pm

    ‘Tell me who he is and I will send some guys to break his legs.’

    Trump threatened to destroy a state senator for daring to believe police should wait until AFTER conviction to seize assets.

  206. 206.

    MomSense

    February 7, 2017 at 7:10 pm

    @Mary G:

    Pretty sure Steven King in Spanish is pendejo.

  207. 207.

    hovercraft

    February 7, 2017 at 7:10 pm

    @Baud:
    You go first and we will follow.

  208. 208.

    Retr2327

    February 7, 2017 at 7:11 pm

    @skerry: I liked that article a lot, but I don’t wholly agree with it. As bad as the executive order was, it didn’t specifically direct agents to act like Aholes. So if agents, e.g., sent a woman to the bathroom in handcuffs, its because they wanted to act like Aholes, not because they were directed to.

  209. 209.

    amk

    February 7, 2017 at 7:11 pm

    aaand the court is adjourned.

  210. 210.

    Baud

    February 7, 2017 at 7:12 pm

    @Bostondreams: Ha! Another pet issue that libertarians will look the other way on.

  211. 211.

    SFAW

    February 7, 2017 at 7:12 pm

    @Orogeny:

    I picked 200 million randomly, just a number I pulled out of the air to signify that I though a significantly lower population for our country would be better for all. I’m still confused as to what I said that made so many here SO angry

    In theory, you’re educated enough to do the math to realize that it would require a population reduction here of 125 million, or 40 percent. In theory, you’re educated enough to realize that a 40 percent reduction of population would require actions which would harm — directly and indirectly — a significant number of people. And “significant,” used here, translates to “millions, maybe tens of millions.”

    And yet, you still don’t seem to get it. Or maybe you do, and are doing what trolls do, because it provides some sort of psychological benefit to be — or pretend to be — an ignorant asshole. Either way, you’re just throwing grenades, and it’s pretty clear you have no interest in doing anything other than pretending your “question” is serious or sincere.

  212. 212.

    Mike J

    February 7, 2017 at 7:12 pm

    @trollhattan:

    Had a pull quote but FYWP is preventing its inclusion.

    Would like to get Alain to add the words “gaslighting” and “distraction” to the WP filters.

  213. 213.

    MisterForkbeard

    February 7, 2017 at 7:13 pm

    @amk: That didn’t seem like it went well for the newly minted Department of Injustice.

  214. 214.

    Davebo

    February 7, 2017 at 7:14 pm

    @Orogeny:

    What is the exact number of immigrants that should enter the US each year.

    There isn’t an exact number. Should there be? The State Department issues Visas and often eventually green cards based on a variety of criteria and quotas are included in the consideration.

    Getting asylum in US immigration courts is a long shot. Trust me, I not only know several immigration judges both active and retired but also have availed myself on the statistics concerning asylum hearing outcomes in our EOIR run court system.

    For instance, in 2015 there were 45,770 requests for asylum in our immigration courts, of which 8,246 were granted.

  215. 215.

    cosima

    February 7, 2017 at 7:14 pm

    I don’t know why it’s calling me ‘undefined.’ Oh well.

    Anyway, we only lived in that uppity bit of TX because that’s where Mr Cosima’s office was located.

  216. 216.

    Brachiator

    February 7, 2017 at 7:14 pm

    @cosima:

    All of our donations (computers, furniture, clothing, etc) went to Tamina rather than the many church-y collections in the community.

    Very thoughtful! Helps make up for the mean-spiritedness of the other folks.

  217. 217.

    ? Martin

    February 7, 2017 at 7:14 pm

    @Orogeny:

    The USA has too damned many people here now. American quality of life would be much improved if we could get our population back down below 200 million. We could add a special case exemption to the limits for refugees.

    We have one of the lowest population densities of any nation – 32 people per sq km. Denmark is 129, France 104, Switzerland 195.

  218. 218.

    Davebo

    February 7, 2017 at 7:15 pm

    @amk:
    I only caught the last 10 minutes or so but damn, the Solicitor Generals office needs better representation.

    Thank god Ted Cruz is a senator because he really is a fairly brilliant lawyer.

  219. 219.

    jl

    February 7, 2017 at 7:16 pm

    Are political party names retired, like sports jerseys? Can another party be named the Know Nothing Party again? Nothing else seems to fit.

    Is ‘Scamalot’ available for the Trump administration? Trump might like it. JFK was very classy and terrific. And very tough, very tough. Many people say that, that he was very tough and terrific, lots of wining. JFK was big on the wins. He won bigly.

    Edit: Could explain to trump that re-using Camelot would by copying, and not classy at all. Very low class. But spin-off is classy. It’s like making a heritage of it. Like making up your own coat of arms and stuff.

  220. 220.

    Baud

    February 7, 2017 at 7:16 pm

    @? Martin: But Switzerland is a hell hole.

  221. 221.

    Brachiator

    February 7, 2017 at 7:17 pm

    @jl:

    Is ‘Scamalot’ available for the Trump administration? Trump might like it. JFK was class and terrific. And very tough, very tough. Many people say that, that he was very tough and terrific, lots of wining. JFK was big on the wins. He won bigly.

    Also, JFK did not have small hands.

  222. 222.

    Jack the Second

    February 7, 2017 at 7:17 pm

    @Orogeny:

    I have been cursed at repeatedly by people here simply for offering an opinion that differed from theirs. Apparenlty not being a part of the hivemind is considered to be “trolling” here.

    Freedom of speech is not freedom from criticism.

    You are free to defend your opinions and if you can’t, you may want to consider changing them. You’re also free to state your opinions and admit you can’t defend them.

    But if you’re a WATB about it you’re going to get mocked. That’s our freedom of speech.

  223. 223.

    ? Martin

    February 7, 2017 at 7:18 pm

    @amk:

    Both sides are saying there is too little time to produce all the details the court is asking for. Are the judges right asking for these details amidst the chaos?

    Yes. Responsible governing means working out the details before you create the chaos.

  224. 224.

    Cain

    February 7, 2017 at 7:19 pm

    @Orogeny:

    My PERSONAL opinion is that the increasing population is leading to a decline in the quality of life for a lot of people. I did not say we should specifically target immigration, but that a reduction in immigration could be a part of a long-term strategy to stabilize and then reduce the population to a level that would maintain the quality of life that many of us desire, while having no negative effect on those who like the crowds and hustle of big cities. There was nothing in my comment to suggest that I wanted to get rid of immigrants, or do anything draconian to quickly reduce our population. I picked 200 million randomly, just a number I pulled out of the air to signify that I though a significantly lower population for our country would be better for all. I’m still confused as to what I said that made so many here SO angry.

    I think it is because you lead with immigration while talking about population reduction during a time when immigration is being attacked by the federal govt. Re-read your initial post, because you created a strawman and pointed to immigration even if that is not what you meant, that is what most of us thought you were saying. Since we don’t know you (eg not a regular poster?), you were regarded with suspicion.

    In any case, I’m not sure that immigration is the answer. In fact population is reducing across the globe as globla trade and internet starts educating the population. In fact, we need to deal with the large number of seniors that is going to cause a lot of issues with healthcare etc.

  225. 225.

    gorram

    February 7, 2017 at 7:19 pm

    @Orogeny: I assume this reads better in the original German.

  226. 226.

    Davebo

    February 7, 2017 at 7:19 pm

    @Baud:

    Perhaps but Switzerland is also a pretty sweet corporate tax haven. The fuckers have tax treaties with almost everyone!

  227. 227.

    amk

    February 7, 2017 at 7:21 pm

    @? Martin: Exactly. They should have ruled this whole mess has not been thought out well and hence the stay stays.

  228. 228.

    Tripod

    February 7, 2017 at 7:21 pm

    Another thread, another concern troll.

    I guess they are gonna try and float the fecal tarball’s approvals…..

    LULZ

  229. 229.

    Major Major Major Major

    February 7, 2017 at 7:24 pm

    @Tripod: It’s really more of a sea lion.

  230. 230.

    aimai

    February 7, 2017 at 7:27 pm

    @Orogeny: Wow. Which 100 million of our citizens have to die to make you happy?

  231. 231.

    bemused

    February 7, 2017 at 7:27 pm

    @tobie:

    They refuse to believe it. They have a vision of their idealized world and they won’t give it up to reality.

  232. 232.

    trollhattan

    February 7, 2017 at 7:27 pm

    Addending my earlier note re the weather and water in general, oh sh*t. (Oroville is California’s second largest reservoir and the nation’s tallest dam. It’s earth-fill so cannot overtop without failing. They’ll need to fix this damn hole, and fast.)

  233. 233.

    Elizabelle

    February 7, 2017 at 7:28 pm

    Fresh thread? Would be nice.

    Evening, all.

  234. 234.

    MomSense

    February 7, 2017 at 7:29 pm

    @Baud:

    I volunteer to populate that hellhole.

  235. 235.

    Major Major Major Major

    February 7, 2017 at 7:31 pm

    @Elizabelle: Evening. How’s it going?

  236. 236.

    MisterForkbeard

    February 7, 2017 at 7:32 pm

    @trollhattan: Oh crap. I’ve got an ex that lives up there. That’s pretty bad.

  237. 237.

    efgoldman

    February 7, 2017 at 7:33 pm

    @Redshift:

    If they knew he’s only free to dissent publicly because he left the country, I doubt they’d be as big on using him as an example.

    That suggests they deal in, you know, actual facts. There’s no evidence of that, at all.

  238. 238.

    Seth Owen

    February 7, 2017 at 7:33 pm

    @Orogeny: That violates every law of economics. Getting down to 200 million would mean getting rid of 170 million customers. The economy is not a zero sum game.

    At some point we are going to have to face a limit on population on growth because, by definition, it can’t grow forever, but hopefully technology and robotics will create the conditions for a soft landing.

  239. 239.

    efgoldman

    February 7, 2017 at 7:35 pm

    @hovercraft:

    good luck getting them to leave.

    What’s the sense of the police having all those military surplus weapons, if they can’t use them?

  240. 240.

    notoriousJRT

    February 7, 2017 at 7:36 pm

    Pull up the ladder! Shut the damn door! Your suffering doesn’t matter! We want it all; there is no more!

  241. 241.

    jl

    February 7, 2017 at 7:36 pm

    @Orogeny:

    Being freaked out about man made climate change, I’d like to see a lower population too. Not sure that will happen. So, I’ll settle for lower population growth. And I have a draconian and very effective way to reduce population growth real fast. Which is to find a way to increase the real incomes of ordinary people, that is, give them more money. Sounds like a win-win to me. Sounds like a win-win for everybody. Except for the plutocrats.

    And, who cares if some anonymous person types stuff at you on the internet?
    And its so easy to get someone to do that, there is really no sense of accomplishment to it.
    I like to get people to yell at me at work, through various skillful means. That’s more fun and has a personal touch.

  242. 242.

    efgoldman

    February 7, 2017 at 7:36 pm

    @Miss Bianca:

    who knows? We might even elect a Democrat to public office before the turn of the next century!

    Oooh Noooooosss!!

  243. 243.

    Mnemosyne

    February 7, 2017 at 7:37 pm

    @Millard Filmore:

    There used to be a huge amount of worry about our ever-increasing population, but then a funny thing happened: the birth control pill, the safest, most effective form of birth control in world history was put on the market, and it turned out that most women didn’t want to have 5 or 6 children. They wanted 2. Maybe 1. Maybe zero.

    Pretty much every concern about overpopulation would go away if every woman in the world had easy access to cheap, effective birth control. Until that happens, trolls will keep wringing their hands.

  244. 244.

    Elizabelle

    February 7, 2017 at 7:39 pm

    @Major Major Major Major: Very well, thank you. Still at the beach, and I think I saw 50 dolphins this morning, swimming their dear little ways south.

    A day without a porpoise… makes me sad.

    How you be?

  245. 245.

    misterpuff

    February 7, 2017 at 7:40 pm

    Tweety wetting his pants about chance that Big Daddy Drumpf might lose Power to discriminate over Religion. He’s raving right now……

  246. 246.

    efgoldman

    February 7, 2017 at 7:40 pm

    @Orogeny:

    So the fact that I have a different opinion makes me a right-wing troll?

    Trolls don’t have to be RW – we’ve had plenty who aren’t.
    If, however, you make some kind of idiot blanket statement, AND YOU HAVE NO COGENT ARGUMENT no matter how many times you’re called out, and you do the same thing over a period of years, you, sir or madam, are 100% a troll.

  247. 247.

    Cain

    February 7, 2017 at 7:41 pm

    @Orogeny:

    What is the exact number of immigrants that should enter the US each year. Exactly how many refugees should be admitted and to which cities should they be sent? How many refugees should be sent to each individual city, and exactly what should be done in terms of assisting them? WHO thinks like that who isn’t directly involved in that sort of work?

    Uh, how should I know? What’s wrong with status quo? You are again bringing up immigration. You cant really know because population growth and decrease constantly change.

  248. 248.

    Major Major Major Major

    February 7, 2017 at 7:42 pm

    @Elizabelle: Honestly I’ve been really down lately. Overwhelmed with life. Nothing happened, just sort of hit me last week. Shrug.

  249. 249.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    February 7, 2017 at 7:42 pm

    @misterpuff: You know the TV machine has an off switch?

  250. 250.

    Mnemosyne

    February 7, 2017 at 7:44 pm

    @Brachiator:

    Weird anecdata: the only people I know who live in Laguna Niguel are lifelong Democrats.

    They have a pretty nice (though not super fancy) house, too.

  251. 251.

    MisterForkbeard

    February 7, 2017 at 7:45 pm

    @misterpuff: Wait, is he raving FOR or AGAINST the crazy executive order?

  252. 252.

    jl

    February 7, 2017 at 7:45 pm

    @Cain: They can come to California. Trump says we are out of control, very bigly out of control and something has to be done about us. So hell with it, we’re going for broke gawdammitall.

  253. 253.

    Elizabelle

    February 7, 2017 at 7:46 pm

    @Major Major Major Major: Hug on Samwise. And maybe write something to entertain yourself.

    I am glad we are doing as well as we are. Not every generation gets to live through the early days of the Trump Reich. Resist!

    And appreciate the dolphins life throws at you.

  254. 254.

    Corner Stone

    February 7, 2017 at 7:46 pm

    @?BillinGlendaleCA: So does your computer and/or mobile device, assface.

  255. 255.

    jl

    February 7, 2017 at 7:47 pm

    @?BillinGlendaleCA:

    ” You know the TV machine has an off switch? ”

    The wise guys who wander though this place saying dumb stuff. It’s unbelievable. One glimpse of Tweety wetting his pants and spittling, it stays with you. it’s too damn late. BillinGlendaleCA, things are out of control, very out of control with him. He says out of control things.

  256. 256.

    Peale

    February 7, 2017 at 7:48 pm

    China has had very draconian family control in place for three generations and very little net immigration and the best we can say is that the population has only increased by 500M during that time. Reversing growth is difficult.

  257. 257.

    misterpuff

    February 7, 2017 at 7:49 pm

    @MisterForkbeard: Tweety is arguing that a court should not dictate foreign policy, and President would be limited in fighting scary terrorists. The man has a Big Daddy complex of republican proportions.

  258. 258.

    raven

    February 7, 2017 at 7:50 pm

    @jl: So logoff if you don’t like it. Don’t be sweatin my man.

  259. 259.

    Van Buren

    February 7, 2017 at 7:50 pm

    Not to change the subject, but I just had a contractor come to my house to give an estimate, and it sure seemed like he was trying to look like Steve Bannon-the grubby face, the unkempt hair, ill fitting clothes. Was a nice guy and came across as competent, but it was very off putting. Trying hard to be a good citizen and not judge a book by its cover.

  260. 260.

    Cain

    February 7, 2017 at 7:51 pm

    @jl:

    @Cain: They can come to California. Trump says we are out of control, very bigly out of control and something has to be done about us. So hell with it, we’re going for broke gawdammitall.

    I’m here right now! :-) I’m visiting from Portland – my dad is on loan to the University of California San Diego. BTW off topic – but coming from Portland, I find the area I’m in to be different than what I am used to, nobody looks at you or even smiles. When I do, I find that they are from the midwest or some other place. Apologies to anyone from the area.. just a foreigner’s observation coming from somewhere else.

  261. 261.

    TidyCat

    February 7, 2017 at 7:51 pm

    I swear to the Goddess Harusame – Tweety just argued that because we elected an authoritarian man-child wannabe dictator we’re stuck with it and laws and the constitution don’t mean shit if IL Douche says so. Because reasons. I hate that fucker. Liberal my ass.

  262. 262.

    efgoldman

    February 7, 2017 at 7:52 pm

    @? Martin:

    Denmark is 129, France 104, Switzerland 195.

    Malthusian hellholes all!

  263. 263.

    Cain

    February 7, 2017 at 7:54 pm

    Staying with my parents, I have listened to more MSNBC in the past 5 days than I have in the past 10 years combined.

  264. 264.

    trollhattan

    February 7, 2017 at 7:55 pm

    @MisterForkbeard:
    Nearly a million AF capacity left in the reservoir but they need to patch the hole pronto. Have seen a pic, it is a BIG hole on a steep slope.

  265. 265.

    TidyCat

    February 7, 2017 at 7:56 pm

    @misterpuff: what you said! I mean… wtf?!

  266. 266.

    Corner Stone

    February 7, 2017 at 7:56 pm

    @TidyCat: Turn it off, turn it off, turn it off! TURN.IT.OFF!

  267. 267.

    MazeDancer

    February 7, 2017 at 7:56 pm

    McConnell just stopped Warren from speaking against Jeff Sessions on the Senate floor. Said she broke some rule speaking too harshly.

    Warren said she couldn’t believe Coretta Scott King couldn’t be quoted in Senate, asked permission to continue. McConnell said no.

    Warren asked for a live Quorum call.

    She may not be able to speak further.

    Live GOP repression on CSPAN2.

    And Twitter crashed.

  268. 268.

    SFAW

    February 7, 2017 at 7:58 pm

    And because I have a masochistic streak, I used Teh Google.

    Annual deaths in the US: 2.6 million
    Population reduction desired by newtroll: 125 M (“I don’t know what number, I just picked one at random”)
    Years to get rid of newtroll’s “excess” population: 48 — assuming no surviving births, no immigration

    Births per year in the US: 4 M
    Births minus deaths = 1.5 M (roughly)

    But stopping immigration will magically make those numbers have no effect on pop growth. Problem solved!

  269. 269.

    Corner Stone

    February 7, 2017 at 7:58 pm

    @Cain: Tie your parents to their bed and then turn the TV off. You know it has a power switch right? That turns it off? Why don’t you just point a shotgun at them and then turn the TV off? You do know it turns off and/or has a remote with a power button, right?

  270. 270.

    efgoldman

    February 7, 2017 at 7:59 pm

    @MisterForkbeard:

    is he raving FOR or AGAINST the crazy executive order?

    Yes

    Why does ANYONE watch that network, ever ever ever?

  271. 271.

    Kathleen

    February 7, 2017 at 8:00 pm

    @schrodingers_cat: In Putins Amerussia Siberian winters don’t bore you, you bore the Siberian winters!

  272. 272.

    Another Scott

    February 7, 2017 at 8:01 pm

    @Mnemosyne: Obama won’t be 67 for another 12 years or so. And he’s not at the end of the Boomers (1946+(18–20)) = 1964-1965 or so + 67 = 2032 until the Boomers are done (unless the law is changed again).

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  273. 273.

    MomSense

    February 7, 2017 at 8:02 pm

    @Major Major Major Major:

    Sending a big hug to you M4. I had a wave of that this weekend. Decided to just let the feelings happen. Let them float past like breezes.

  274. 274.

    efgoldman

    February 7, 2017 at 8:03 pm

    @Corner Stone:

    Why don’t you just point a shotgun at them and then turn the TV off?

    Kinder to take the shotgun and shoot the teevee

  275. 275.

    Kathleen

    February 7, 2017 at 8:05 pm

    @rikyrah: Melissa McCarthy could so do that, too. She would be perfect.

  276. 276.

    Origuy

    February 7, 2017 at 8:05 pm

    @joel hanes:

    I do advocate strong support for all the factors that enable and encourage women to control their own fertility.

    Yeah, if we didn’t elect a government every eight years that doesn’t believe in birth control. Supporting family planning in the countries that send us immigrants would improve their economies and reduce the pressure to emigrate.

  277. 277.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    February 7, 2017 at 8:06 pm

    @efgoldman: Or one could just unplug the TV.

  278. 278.

    Brachiator

    February 7, 2017 at 8:09 pm

    @Peale:

    China has had very draconian family control in place for three generations and very little net immigration and the best we can say is that the population has only increased by 500M during that time.

    China also created a problem where in many areas, there are too many males in relation to females.

    Japan, on the other hand, is not overpopulated and has a problem with an aging population and not enough young people. I think that S Korea may have a lesser, but similar problem.

    Population and demographics is more complicated than just “the world or this or that country is overpopulated.”

  279. 279.

    jl

    February 7, 2017 at 8:10 pm

    @Cain: I don’t live in San Diego so wouldn’t know. Maybe it’s crowds, or maybe tourist heavy places do that to the locals I thought San Francisco was pretty unfriendly and snooty, until I moved out near Ocean Beach. It’s much more like a friendly small town out there.

  280. 280.

    Mnemosyne

    February 7, 2017 at 8:10 pm

    @Major Major Major Major:

    Sometimes I feel like that when there’s a cold or flu virus lurking, just waiting to make me sick. It’s okay to be lower-energy sometimes.

    Just remember that, like me, you got stuck with one of those brains that likes to lie to you, so make sure to check your perceptions with the people around you.

  281. 281.

    Major Major Major Major

    February 7, 2017 at 8:10 pm

    @Elizabelle: @MomSense: Thanks :)

    Samwise is on my lap, I’m streaming Supernatural, and I actually finished a chapter this morning. And I see my shrink in an hour or so. Doing all I can! Lol

  282. 282.

    jl

    February 7, 2017 at 8:11 pm

    @raven:

    ” So logoff if you don’t like it. Don’t be sweatin my man. ”

    May Melissa McCarthy play you on SNL. My curse of the week. I grant it to you.

  283. 283.

    Jack the Second

    February 7, 2017 at 8:12 pm

    @MazeDancer: Jesus are Republicans really starting a precedent that the minority party can’t SPEAK in Congress?

  284. 284.

    Mnemosyne

    February 7, 2017 at 8:13 pm

    @?BillinGlendaleCA:

    Didn’t somebody here say that she removed Fox News from the channel lineup on her elderly mom’s remote control and blamed it on the cable company getting rid of the channel? And her mom was okay with it and peace reigned in the house from that day forward?

  285. 285.

    chopper

    February 7, 2017 at 8:14 pm

    @Orogeny:

    woah, guys, let’s leave Sammy the Sea Lion alone here, can’t you see this is his PERSONAL opinion? as opposed to i dunno, some sort of “business” opinion?

  286. 286.

    MomSense

    February 7, 2017 at 8:15 pm

    @Mnemosyne:

    I just watched The Brainwashing of My Dad and they did something similar to Dad. I have a few issues with it but it’s worth watching.

  287. 287.

    raven

    February 7, 2017 at 8:15 pm

    @jl: She’ll have to put on one hell of a fake beard, I haven’t saved since the election! :)

  288. 288.

    jl

    February 7, 2017 at 8:16 pm

    Flash update on GOP Obamacare replacement… developing….

    GOP Senator On Obamacare Replacement: ‘There’s Not Any Real Discussion Taking Place Right Now’
    Republicans are finding it much harder to craft health care reform replacement than it was to campaign on repeal.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bob-corker-obamacare_us_589a47aae4b0c1284f292a55

    Remember, when the totally mess things up, to call the mess ‘Trumpcare’.
    Sen Corker was the source of the quote for the headline

  289. 289.

    Another Scott

    February 7, 2017 at 8:16 pm

    @Cacti: If you look at it from a purely economic standpoint, there’s no contradiction. Arguing against “illegal immigration” while hiring illegal immigrants is the best of both worlds, for you. You get cheap labor, you get workers who can’t complain without risking deportation, you get to make unreasonable demands (“I’ll fire you and hire someone else – there’s a million like you out there…”), and you get to plead ignorance if they somehow get in trouble with the law or ICE. “Well, he told me he was here legally!!11”

    If all the “illegals” were really rounded up, then wages would necessarily rise. The 0.01% don’t want that – they want that least of all.

    Cui bono? is a good question to ask when there seems to be a long-standing contradiction in public policy, or policies that are argued about in political settings.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  290. 290.

    raven

    February 7, 2017 at 8:16 pm

    @Mnemosyne: Are we bad for enjoying “Indian Summers”?

  291. 291.

    Kathleen

    February 7, 2017 at 8:16 pm

    Dems are holding the floor again tonight to protest Sessions.

  292. 292.

    jl

    February 7, 2017 at 8:17 pm

    @raven: I’ll keep an eye out for the clip. Probably be posted right here on this almost top 10,000 blog.

  293. 293.

    Mnemosyne

    February 7, 2017 at 8:17 pm

    @MomSense:

    I still feel like my dad got hijacked by Fox News, so it would probably just make me too sad.

  294. 294.

    Mnemosyne

    February 7, 2017 at 8:18 pm

    @raven:

    Probably. I didn’t watch it because I heard it wasn’t very good.

  295. 295.

    jl

    February 7, 2017 at 8:19 pm

    @Jack the Second: Desperate measures for desperate politicians. I expect worse will come. McConnell might end up running the Senate like the House before this is over. If we are lucky and there is any point in running it at all.

  296. 296.

    MomSense

    February 7, 2017 at 8:20 pm

    @Mnemosyne:

    I honestly think Fox News hashijacked people. Fox and Rush and Hannity and Sinclair et al. I’m really sorry, Mnem.

  297. 297.

    raven

    February 7, 2017 at 8:20 pm

    @Mnemosyne: Lotsa asshole Brits and some nice Indian folks. How do they tell untouchables from other people?

  298. 298.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    February 7, 2017 at 8:21 pm

    @raven: They have very talented make-up people, remember Eddie Murphy as a white guy?

  299. 299.

    Mnemosyne

    February 7, 2017 at 8:21 pm

    Debating if I feel like making a big pot of spaghetti sauce tonight to freeze for later.

    The main thing holding me back is that it requires a LOT of dicing. A LOT.

  300. 300.

    schrodingers_cat

    February 7, 2017 at 8:23 pm

    @Mnemosyne: I usually make a ton of tomato sauce on the weekend and use it as a base for pasta sauces, curries etc.

  301. 301.

    PsiFighter37

    February 7, 2017 at 8:24 pm

    That asshole Jill Stein blamed DEMOCRATS for rolling over on the DeVos nomination…even though they did everything they could procedurally to hold her up, and all of them (even Manchin) voted against her.

    Fuck that bitch. She got more votes than the winning margin in MI, WI, and PA. She is way more responsible for DeVos being able to destroy the public education system than any Democrat.

  302. 302.

    Mnemosyne

    February 7, 2017 at 8:24 pm

    @MomSense:

    It was really freaky. He was always a Republican, but the combination of Rush and Fox melted his damn brain to the point where he could actually sit and tell us that fascism was communism because Mussolini started as a communist.

    This was a man with a law degree who started and ran his own very successful title insurance company, so he didn’t start off dumb. Right-wing propaganda made him that way.

  303. 303.

    schrodingers_cat

    February 7, 2017 at 8:24 pm

    @raven: I watched a couple of episodes in season 1, but they got a lot of details wrong and I couldn’t really enjoy it so I stopped watching.

  304. 304.

    raven

    February 7, 2017 at 8:26 pm

    @schrodingers_cat: Details about India?

  305. 305.

    Mnemosyne

    February 7, 2017 at 8:26 pm

    @schrodingers_cat:

    G is working late tonight, so I have some time to putter around in the kitchen, and my fennel and celery aren’t going to get any fresher. I should probably just do it.

  306. 306.

    Citizen_X

    February 7, 2017 at 8:27 pm

    @Cain:

    population is reducing across the globe as globla trade and internet starts educating the population.

    What? The population growth rate has been decreasing, but yes, the population is still growing. The UN’s median prediction is that we’ll hit 10.1 billion by the end of this century, but it could go as high as 15 billion. Link.

  307. 307.

    Major Major Major Major

    February 7, 2017 at 8:27 pm

    @PsiFighter37: I am not exactly surprised that Stein doesn’t seem to know how the government works.

  308. 308.

    weaselone

    February 7, 2017 at 8:27 pm

    @Orogeny:

    Noticed the pile on and while somewhat understandable, it’s still probably a little excessive. The problem is that you made a

    1. I would counter that an increasing population, particularly from immigration has lead to a better quality of life overall in this country. Restricting immigration, particularly in the manner that Trump and Congress appear to want to do it is almost certain to create economic hardships for the country and decrease overall quality of life.

    Immigrants have been key to continue driving economic expansion, entrepreneurship, and revitalizing urban areas. That’s in addition to adding aspects of their culture to the US. It’s these urban areas that to the extent taxes are still paid, that actually continue to maintain what’s left of our crumbling infrastructure, particularly in rural areas. Reducing population yields lower tax payments, means more decay. You see this in many small towns where the tax base has moved away and also more graphically in a large city like Detroit that has seen a major decrease in population.

    That’s the future of this country in the absence of population growth, because at the moment, there is a decided unwillingness on the part of many people in this country to server as good stewards, e.g. pay sufficient taxes to maintain our infrastructure and protect our wilderness areas.

    2. You seem to have an idyllic version of winding country roads and small towns. That’s not really the future that your 200 million population would preserve under our current reality. Cities are more resource efficient than rural and can provide a greater variety of services to those living there, even while under resource constraints. It’s only because urban areas have their pockets picked to support rural areas that many of these areas are able to survive. Decreasing the population will limit the funds available to prop up these rural areas which would only serve to degrade them further.

    3. I think what you’re actually hoping for is some sort of rural Renaissance, but that isn’t related to population growth and may even be inhibited by limiting immigration. There needs to be a new economic model for rural areas, a new willingness to pay for their own damn roads and other infrastructure and they need bright, entrepreneurial, driven people to make it happen. That probably means immigrants.

  309. 309.

    amk

    February 7, 2017 at 8:27 pm

    @?BillinGlendaleCA: would ya stop telling people to stop hitting their own noses?

  310. 310.

    Baud

    February 7, 2017 at 8:28 pm

    @PsiFighter37: She is a hater. Not so different than Trump in that respect.

  311. 311.

    Mnemosyne

    February 7, 2017 at 8:28 pm

    @PsiFighter37:

    When the question comes up about what Stein did to oppose fascism, she’ll be able to say, I took money from Putin and blamed everyone else for my actions.

  312. 312.

    schrodingers_cat

    February 7, 2017 at 8:29 pm

    @raven: India, Simla, the Indian Civil Service, the characters, I don’t know where to start. Viceroy of India was a top admin post in England, that a young guy in his 30s would even be in consideration does not pass the plausibility test.

    ETA:My review of the first episode

  313. 313.

    Major Major Major Major

    February 7, 2017 at 8:31 pm

    @Mnemosyne: Oddly enough, Trump could say something very similar.

  314. 314.

    Iowa Old Lady

    February 7, 2017 at 8:31 pm

    @Mnemosyne: The main problem with dicing is that I can’t pour the wine until after I finish, lest I chop my finger off.

  315. 315.

    Mnemosyne

    February 7, 2017 at 8:31 pm

    @Citizen_X:

    IIRC, most authorities say that the best way to slow population growth, and possibly even reverse it, is to educate girls and give women easy access to birth control and abortion in every corner of the globe.

    In other words, we’re fucked, because misogyny will insist on destroying the world.

  316. 316.

    raven

    February 7, 2017 at 8:31 pm

    @schrodingers_cat: He ain’t the Viceroy he’s The Private Secretary to Lord Willingdon, Viceroy of India. But I get ya.

  317. 317.

    efgoldman

    February 7, 2017 at 8:32 pm

    @?BillinGlendaleCA:

    Or one could just unplug the TV.

    True but then it wouldn’t be a riff on CS.

  318. 318.

    schrodingers_cat

    February 7, 2017 at 8:32 pm

    @raven: That he is in even consideration for the post is ridiculous.

  319. 319.

    Elizabelle

    February 7, 2017 at 8:33 pm

    We haz been abandoned.

  320. 320.

    El Caganer

    February 7, 2017 at 8:33 pm

    Wow. This thread managed to wind up in bullshit-land pretty quickly, didn’t it? There’s a lunatic imbecile running the country, and much discussion of whether more people should be allowed in or not…..which presumes there will be some sort of country left. Heck of a job, Brownie!

  321. 321.

    Mnemosyne

    February 7, 2017 at 8:33 pm

    @Iowa Old Lady:

    I think that technically (red) Zinfandel is the wrong kind of wine for spaghetti sauce, but it’s my favorite red, so I don’t care. ?

  322. 322.

    Baud

    February 7, 2017 at 8:34 pm

    @Mnemosyne: Have you no shame?

  323. 323.

    raven

    February 7, 2017 at 8:34 pm

    @schrodingers_cat: Well I guess I haven’t gotten to that part but I’ll take your word for it.

  324. 324.

    amk

    February 7, 2017 at 8:34 pm

    @Elizabelle: prolly, cole & co have been deported. or self-deported. who knows.

  325. 325.

    Baud

    February 7, 2017 at 8:35 pm

    @Elizabelle: Alain should implement an auto-open-thread feature.

  326. 326.

    Another Scott

    February 7, 2017 at 8:37 pm

    @Orogeny: You’re talking about things that have real-life historical models to examine. China went to a draconian 1-child policy in 1979, yet their population continued to increase. It’s not expected to peak until 2030 (around 1 B in 1979 to around 1.45 B) (about 2.5 generations).

    Cutting the US population from it’s present ~ 330 M to 200 M would not be done gradually in “a few” generations. It wouldn’t be done gradually in 100 years – population growth isn’t going to stop in 2017. It would require some sort of mass-death event to get back to that number in less than 150 years (especially given continued population growth in the world until at least 2050, and maybe through 2100).

    That’s what a real-world example tell us.

    If you don’t want to be pushed on why 200M is a good number, then maybe you shouldn’t pick that number.

    If you don’t want to be accused of advocating genocide or mass deportations, then tell us how exactly your idea would work when China shows quite clearly that even draconian policies won’t change the population in the time scales that you think it will. Or maybe, investigate things some more and realize that it won’t work.

    Energy efficiency, transportation costs, utility costs, the cost of infrastructure, and people’s desire for a variety of entertainment, cultural, work, and educational options all argue for higher population densities. There are countless examples of high population density cities that are working quite well, thank you. Historical housing choices tell us that people actually don’t like living in idyllic countrysides when everything is considered.

    My $0.02.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  327. 327.

    raven

    February 7, 2017 at 8:37 pm

    @Another Scott: nice font

  328. 328.

    Mnemosyne

    February 7, 2017 at 8:37 pm

    @Baud:

    Still the best use of the word “shame” in a comedy.

  329. 329.

    Cain

    February 7, 2017 at 8:39 pm

    @Corner Stone:

    @Cain: Tie your parents to their bed and then turn the TV off. You know it has a power switch right? That turns it off? Why don’t you just point a shotgun at them and then turn the TV off? You do know it turns off and/or has a remote with a power button, right?

    Yeah, I’ve told them to turn it off. Old people, die hard habits. I just move to another room now.

  330. 330.

    Aleta

    February 7, 2017 at 8:40 pm

    @Mnemosyne: The lying rw news racket broke apart so many families, took both my sisters.

  331. 331.

    Omnes Omnibus

    February 7, 2017 at 8:40 pm

    @Major Major Major Major: The dude is consistent.

  332. 332.

    MomSense

    February 7, 2017 at 8:40 pm

    @PsiFighter37:

    Fuck fucking Jill Stein. History will not be kind to her.

    @Mnemosyne:

    I’m sorry about your dad. I absolutely think right wing media brainwash people. It’s insidious.

  333. 333.

    efgoldman

    February 7, 2017 at 8:41 pm

    @amk:

    prolly, cole & co have been deported. or self-deported. who knows.

    All the front pagers have gone out for the Tuesday dinner specials.

  334. 334.

    danielx

    February 7, 2017 at 8:41 pm

    @Iowa Old Lady:

    Wise rule; I’m still wearing two band-aids from taking a slice off the end of my thumb while cutting up things on Saturday evening.

  335. 335.

    Cain

    February 7, 2017 at 8:42 pm

    @jl:

    @Cain: I don’t live in San Diego so wouldn’t know. Maybe it’s crowds, or maybe tourist heavy places do that to the locals I thought San Francisco was pretty unfriendly and snooty, until I moved out near Ocean Beach. It’s much more like a friendly small town out there.

    huh, I never had that problem.. But in San Diego, men keep staring at me, and not in the “I think you’re hot” way. The women though, I get smiles. I’m going to take it then they sense a threat, and I’m stealin their wimmen!

  336. 336.

    raven

    February 7, 2017 at 8:42 pm

    @efgoldman: Cole got all them goodies out of the trash.

  337. 337.

    efgoldman

    February 7, 2017 at 8:42 pm

    @MomSense:

    Fuck fucking Jill Stein. History will not be kind to her.

    History will not even mention her as a footnote.

  338. 338.

    schrodingers_cat

    February 7, 2017 at 8:43 pm

    @raven: Plus, Simla is not tropical, it is nestled at the foothills of Himalayas. They even get snow.
    Here is what modern Shimla (Simla) looks like.

  339. 339.

    amk

    February 7, 2017 at 8:43 pm

    @efgoldman: On our dime? Outrageous.

  340. 340.

    Mnemosyne

    February 7, 2017 at 8:45 pm

    @Cain:

    So Cal drove me nuts when I first moved out here, because people are pretty aloof. I eventually adapted, though it still seems like I get along best with people who moved here from somewhere else. Hell, the guy I met and married out here grew up within 50 miles of where I grew up in Illinois!

  341. 341.

    raven

    February 7, 2017 at 8:45 pm

    @schrodingers_cat: Isn’t that why they go there in the summer?

  342. 342.

    raven

    February 7, 2017 at 8:46 pm

    @Mnemosyne: I didn’t know you were from Illinois did I?

  343. 343.

    MazeDancer

    February 7, 2017 at 8:46 pm

    @Jack the Second:

    Jesus are Republicans really starting a precedent that the minority party can’t SPEAK in Congress?

    Senate voting on whether McConnell was right to stop Warren under Senate Rules.

    McConnell shushed two women at once, as Warren was reading Coretta Scott King’s letter against Sessions.

    Trump just tweeted the Dems are obstructionist, so might be coordinated with Mitch.

  344. 344.

    schrodingers_cat

    February 7, 2017 at 8:47 pm

    @raven: Yes but the series shot in Malaysia, does not look Simla at all.

  345. 345.

    raven

    February 7, 2017 at 8:47 pm

    @schrodingers_cat: Ah, got it. That tea plantation is pretty wherever it is.

  346. 346.

    randy khan

    February 7, 2017 at 8:48 pm

    The NY Times report on the argument suggests that it did not go well for the government. One tell: The government lawyer at one point suggested that maybe the court could lift only part of the temporary restraining order, rather than all of it.

    An argument

    The court said a decision will come in a few days, so probably by Friday. Then it’s on to the Supremes.

  347. 347.

    MazeDancer

    February 7, 2017 at 8:48 pm

    Here is the video of McConnell stopping Warren from speaking against Sessions tonight on the the Senate Floor.

  348. 348.

    Roger Moore

    February 7, 2017 at 8:49 pm

    @Peale:

    China has had very draconian family control in place for three generations

    No, they haven’t. Into the 1960s, the official policy was to encourage large families, because Mao saw population growth as key for economic growth. The One Child Policy was only introduced in 1979, and is now being formally phased out. Also, FWIW, the One Child Policy actually had strong public support within China; the public accepted that they had a real population problem and that restricting the birth rate was the only practical way of dealing with it.

  349. 349.

    randy khan

    February 7, 2017 at 8:51 pm

    @MazeDancer:

    McConnell really doesn’t want any black votes for the Rs, does he? (Yeah, I know, what he wants is no black votes at all.)

    And Warren basically is putting all of the Rs on record about whether they want to hear from Mrs. King. Nicely done.

  350. 350.

    Mnemosyne

    February 7, 2017 at 8:52 pm

    @raven:

    Sure you did. SDuinne is from the same suburb that G is from. I’m from the North Shore.

  351. 351.

    Dave

    February 7, 2017 at 8:52 pm

    @Citizen_X: I’m really hoping for the lower end of that number.

  352. 352.

    Anne Laurie

    February 7, 2017 at 8:53 pm

    @rikyrah:

    I want a woman to play President Bannon

    Rosie O’Donnell has volunteered. Seriously!

  353. 353.

    raven

    February 7, 2017 at 8:54 pm

    @Mnemosyne: I lived in North Chicago as a kid, we moved from Evanston when my old man became the NCHS hoop coach.

  354. 354.

    schrodingers_cat

    February 7, 2017 at 8:56 pm

    @Cain: It could be worse. Last time I visited my MIL in India, she had some god awful Tamil saas-bahu drama on a loop. MSNBC is better than that. But then again I don’t understand Tamil, so I could totally tune it out.

  355. 355.

    MazeDancer

    February 7, 2017 at 8:57 pm

    @randy khan:

    And Warren basically is putting all of the Rs on record about whether they want to hear from Mrs. King. Nicely done.

    Yes, but think it was only her fast thinking. Don’t think Mitch noticed what she was saying at the point he interrupted. Warren brought up the rightful indignation about how could Coretta Scott King not be read in Senate.

    The GOP Senators are voting that Mitch was right to stop Warren. So with Trump’s tweet this looks like coordinated amp up the “Dems are whiny losers” meme. And part of Dems are obstructionists, must stop their protests.

    It’s appalling and repulsive. The GOP stopping free speech starting in the Senate. And voting one by one for it.

  356. 356.

    vhh

    February 7, 2017 at 8:57 pm

    @Orogeny: Present US fertility rate (with effects of immigration included) is 1.88 children per woman. Replacement rate (constant population) is 2.. For comparison, look at Japan with 1.4 or Spain or Italy with even lower numbers. Populations there in decline. Houses, districts and whole towns are being abandoned. A classic Italian village was put on ebay, complete with stone houses, a church, etc. In Japan, there is a problem of getting relatives to pay for demolition of derelict (and now dangerous) houses whose occupants have died. Worker shortages are significant in Japan already and getting more serious in Germany. France is one of the few Western countries above replacement rate, and credits generous govt support of families, child care etc. Thus, a major reduction or shutoff in US immigration would have serious economic effects on a time scale as short as 10-20 years. There are probably some economics websites that show how the calculations work, and could be used to estimate what would need to be done to avoid eventual economic (and military) collapse.

  357. 357.

    danielx

    February 7, 2017 at 8:58 pm

    Apologies in advance for a long block quote/link. The person who wrote this for the local alternative paper is indeed on the faculty of the IU School of Medicine, in case there are any doubts. One more reminder of the human costs of Trump/Bannon idiocy…which would, of course, be dismissed as “fake news”. “Fake news” being anything Donald Trump doesn’t like seeing in print or on cable tv, or so I gather

    My name is Morhaf Al-Achkar.

    I am a family doctor at Indiana University and work at Methodist hospital. I am also a professor at the School of Medicine. Over the past five years, I have trained many family medicine residents, taught hundreds of medical students and physician’s assistant students. They are now caring for thousands of patients throughout the country.

    I am a proud Syrian and came to the U.S. as an immigrant ten years ago. My sister — a neuroscientist and professor at the University of California — and her family are refugees. My brother, a professor in Syrian and now an engineer in the UK, and his three kids who are studying pure math, physics, and medicine are refugees in Europe.

    My dad, a 72-year-old economics professor, also found refuge in Maryland after he lost all his fortune to the war in Syria. His wife is now trapped in Saudi Arabia — he may not be able to see her. She can’t come and if he leaves he can’t return.

    On the eve of Thanksgiving, I was diagnosed with metastatic lung cancer. My disease is so advanced that no treatment out there will cure me or even make me live longer. Patients in my situation are given 4 to 10 months to live.

    I have metastatic cancer. I may not be here in few months and my family — because they are Syrians —can’t come to visit me.

  358. 358.

    schrodingers_cat

    February 7, 2017 at 8:59 pm

    @raven: Tea plantations are beautiful, I have been to a few in the southern Indian mountains called Nilgiris (Blue mountains).

  359. 359.

    Roger Moore

    February 7, 2017 at 9:04 pm

    @weaselone:

    It’s only because urban areas have their pockets picked to support rural areas that many of these areas are able to survive. Decreasing the population will limit the funds available to prop up these rural areas which would only serve to degrade them further.

    I don’t like the “getting their pockets picked” language. Cities depend on rural areas for stuff like food, lumber, minerals, and the like that we can’t realistically produce in a densely populated area. Paying for infrastructure in rural areas isn’t getting our pockets picked; it’s an equitable solution to make sure the rural areas that support us function properly. We could potentially handle it differently- say, by paying enough higher prices for goods that come from rural areas so the people living their could pay for their own infrastructure- but one way or another it’s part of the price of getting the things we need.

  360. 360.

    amk

    February 7, 2017 at 9:08 pm

    @Roger Moore: Good point. Rural areas do feed a nation.

  361. 361.

    danielx

    February 7, 2017 at 9:09 pm

    Also, too – Politico article about DeVos with pic showing her arriving at the Capitol on 1/17/17 with Tim Scott and – tah-dah! – Joe Fucking Lieberman.

    Why am I not surprised?

    ETA: I thought the little skeeve had gone to Both Sides heaven.

  362. 362.

    Omnes Omnibus

    February 7, 2017 at 9:13 pm

    @schrodingers_cat: There was a reason it was the summer capital.

  363. 363.

    Another Scott

    February 7, 2017 at 9:18 pm

    @raven: I often seem to stick in the wrong close tag. “a” for “b” here, for an instant or so. You’re fast! :-)

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  364. 364.

    Omnes Omnibus

    February 7, 2017 at 9:23 pm

    @Another Scott: Why not use the buttons?

  365. 365.

    Another Scott

    February 7, 2017 at 9:27 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: I just like doing it myself, and always have.

    I think I’ve only used the actual buttons here once.

    My Kingdom for a Preview Button!

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  366. 366.

    J R in WV

    February 7, 2017 at 9:43 pm

    @Orogeny:

    Have you had a vasectomy yet? How many kids do you have, with how many mothers? Do you pay child support? Enough? Prepared to put your kids through college? Major^4 was brilliant, there you are 10 years ago beating the same dead horse. Fuck you, jackass.

    And FYI, all, I have no children at the age of 66, unlikely to ever have any.

  367. 367.

    J R in WV

    February 7, 2017 at 9:46 pm

    @Orogeny:

    The number you pronounced maths out roughly to keep two thirds, discard one third. If you can’t do that math, you shouldn’t be chipping in on topics that involve numbers at all.

  368. 368.

    J R in WV

    February 7, 2017 at 9:58 pm

    @Orogeny:

    I’m believing you are a liberal Democrat, not. You’re a self-admitted Alabama red-neck, probably working in construction, when you don’t get underbid by a Latino immigrant – which is probably why you want to fuck with immigration. You hate having to work as hard as those “others” who will actually work really hard.

    I’ve worked with those guys – they pace themselves, and can go all day long. Start at the crack of dawn and work until the heat hits unbearable. I’ve worked 12 hour shifts in shipyards on the Mississippi coast in the summertime. You’re a lazy redneck Republican troll, still today, just like you were back in that 2007 thread Major^4 found, the thread where you revealed your location in Alabama.

  369. 369.

    weaselone

    February 7, 2017 at 10:51 pm

    @Roger Moore:

    Why is it that we feel the need to pretend that the people who live in these areas are all employed in the mining, forestry and agriculture sectors? I agree the individuals who work in these area should get decent wages, sufficient to pay the taxes needed to support their own infrastructure, but let’s be honest.

    1. Most of the people who live in these areas, live there because they want a big house on a lot of land with low taxes and a low cost of living, not because they’re farmers, ranchers, miners, etc. I grew up on a house 9 miles outside a city of 12,000 people. We weren’t farmers. Our neighbors weren’t farmers, their neighbors weren’t farmers. Now there were a handful of farms, several nurseries and fruit orchards within a five mile radius, but they probably employed more migrant workers than full time residents.
    2. It’s no good paying more for agricultural products and natural resources, because the production is largely done by large farms and major companies. That just pads the companies’ bottom lines, because people in these areas have collectively voted against unions and legislation that might help them get a better wage
    3. Even when they have the cash, they’re still allergic to paying taxes.
    4. I’m cognizant that I depend on areas outside of the city for my survival. That the lumber, food, and the plethora of other products I buy come from somewhere else. I also understand that paying taxes to maintain the infrastructure that enables these things to reach me is important. I also pay for all these goods with my own money, so I get a little resentful of the fact that the people talk shit about me and my fellow city dwellers as if we were the moochers who don’t pay our own way while stealing all their hard earned money.

  370. 370.

    Cain

    February 7, 2017 at 11:11 pm

    @Mnemosyne:

    So Cal drove me nuts when I first moved out here, because people are pretty aloof. I eventually adapted, though it still seems like I get along best with people who moved here from somewhere else. Hell, the guy I met and married out here grew up within 50 miles of where I grew up in Illinois!

    That’s what others I have met. I met someone else that also said they had to adapt. I spent my time in midwest and the northwest, both who are very friendly.

  371. 371.

    Cain

    February 7, 2017 at 11:15 pm

    @schrodingers_cat:

    @Cain: It could be worse. Last time I visited my MIL in India, she had some god awful Tamil saas-bahu drama on a loop. MSNBC is better than that. But then again I don’t understand Tamil, so I could totally tune it out.

    I really fucking hate Tamil dramas. My tamil is a combination of malayalam and tamil and is not pure. (we are iyer brahmins) I can’t even understand any tamil movie honestly. I can tune it out, but the visuals are really annoying.

  372. 372.

    Xenos

    February 8, 2017 at 12:13 am

    @Orogeny: after intervention, war, and massive loss of arable land, the middle east needs to resettle half its population. US share of that? 100 million or so.

    Sorry righties, karma is a real bitch. Don’t mess around with it in the future.

  373. 373.

    her4e

    February 8, 2017 at 2:26 am

    @Orogeny:

    MY PERSONAL opinion is that the increasing population is leading to a decline in the quality of life for a lot of people.

    Well, your part of your “problem” here is that you seem to have melded that “PERSONAL opinion” of ~too many people = bad~ with what seem like a rather stubborn personal belief that immigrants as a whole offer few tangible benefits to our “quality of life”, at least according to your definition of it, and almost no lasting positive effect to our economy leading into the future. Well, many would disagree, but it is, after all, a “personal opinion” so you don’t feel the need to offer any credible studies or documentation on it.
    But OK, you’re going good here, right? You’ve identified a a major source behind the lack of decent, enjoyable, lightly populated,clean-aired space and when you connect that with “Jeez, there sure are a lot of immigrants here now and they take up a lot of space, and I’m really pretty sure they aren’t going to represent any sort of dynamic economic force in the future, so then drastically limiting immigration would be an essential and key step in securing a good future.

    So you nailed that down -still gotta figure out how to get the “regular” citizens to cut down the birth-rate drastically but once they hear the logic -piece of cake.

    But geez, now these rude people are criticizing my ideas and obscuring things with fancy demographic studies and harping minute detaily things like “practicality’ and kinda hinting that I haven’t applied enough “intellectual vigor” or vetting to my ideas.

    So now I has a sad. and it’s making me feel a little butt-hurt, too. So I guess now I’ll just have to call them all unfair stupid-heads and complain about how wrong it is to attack someone when their ideas might be foolishly over simplistic fairy-tale based solutions than anything based on any genuine serious thought or consideration.

    So yeah, when you rush over here with a less than half thought out, silly-assed, pretty much unworkable solutions to a “problem” that many here probably do not even consider as a problem in the first place, then you are not likely to find a whole lot of supportive patience floating in your direction. Maybe it gets a bit mean sometimes (for example. this comment probably is) but as far as I know nobody on this site has ever signed a promise to suffer fools gladly.

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