Welcome back, Schroedinger’s Cat!:
Moving is not fun, no matter how many times I do it. Whether it is across continents and oceans, states or to the neighboring town, it never gets easier. I am so glad that the Insufferable Movie Snob kept the blog going on, posting her detailed and funny reviews. If you haven’t already checked out her reviews you should do so now. She rocks! Here is a link to her last review.
My last movie/TV review post before my brief unplanned hiatus was on Star Trek Deep Space 9. Unlike The Next Generation, aliens of DS9 were more than just obnoxious caricatures and Star Fleet officers were not always perfect. Main and recurring characters experienced growth and change. The show had strong women characters who had more to do than just look pretty. I have be re-watching DS9 since the fall and I for one would like to revisit Terak Nor more than once. It has a wealth of episodes pertinent to this moment in history that we are all a part of.
When I asked which episode you wanted me to review, these were the episodes that came up in the comments.
His Way (6.20)
Its Only a Paper Moon (7.10)
Far Beyond the Stars (6.13)
Blood Oath (2.19)
In the hands of the prophets (1.20)
A Time To Stand (6.1)
Tears of the Prophets (5.26)
Once More Unto the Breach (6.7)
In the Pale Moonlight (6.19)Most of these episodes are in seasons 6 and 7 when DS9 reached its climax. Because of the serialized nature of the show I think it would be better to go in chronological order. So people who haven’t watched DS9 before can join in if they want to.
With that in mind, I will start at the beginning with The Emissary. I also think Duet is a must watch of the season one episodes and we can end our season one watch with In the Hands of the Prophets. If you would like me to cover any other first season DS9 episodes leave a comment.
This is a complete list of season 1 episodes. Without further ado let’s dive in and begin at the beginning.
The scene of action is Deep Space Nine, an outpost at the edge of the alpha quadrant near Bajor, a planet devastated by war and occupation by the Cardasssians . When the show begins the Cardassians have just left, or should I say wrecked the station, before leaving. Our hero, Benjamin Sisko, a commander in StarFleet is named the commanding officer of the station. Benjamin Sisko has a young son, Jake, who is none too thrilled by this transfer to the middle of nowhere, where the replicators are broken and the living quarters are missing a bed…
Click the link to read the rest!
Baud
I stopped watching DS9 about halfway through the series. All the praise makes me want to watch the complete series again.
sigaba
@Baud: Oh once it gets into the Dominon War it’s a brand new deal. In the Pale Moonlight is probably the best hour Trek ever produced (including all borg stories).
sigaba
By the way, the Onion AV Club did a retrospective viewing of the entire series a few years ago, if you ever wanted to read 1000-comment long threads debating the finer points of Trill symbiosis have at it. (Also many Lulz.)
greennotGreen
Although I watched DS9 when it was in its first run, I never liked Avery Brooks as Ben Sisko, and when I tried watching it again recently, I just couldn’t get past his Overacting Negro Ensemble style delivery. But I agree that the non-humans were the most interesting characters on the show.
ETA: Sorry, but I cannot seem to fix the misplaced link to the Overacting Negro Ensemble on this stupid iPad.
? Martin
The dominion war made that series. Could take it or leave it before that.
Taylor
J Michael Stryzinski pitched the plot for Babylon 5 to Paramount. B5 was the first TV SF show with a story arc.
They declined.
Then they brought out DS9, which had a story arc very similar to B5.
They even hired away actors from Bablyon 5 (e.g. Robert Foxworth who played General Hague, they had to kill the character off-camera).
Declaring a truce on that front for the sake of the greater struggle (just informing those not aware of it), there are indeed chilling parallels with today:
* The Night Watch.
* The CNN-like broadcast media, who go from vapid to complete propaganda.
* The “anti-alien” propaganda, the stoking of conspiracy theories about aliens, including the revulsion at a romantic relationship between a human and alien main characters.
* The collaboration of ambitious people with evil third parties (the Shadows).
Stryzinski was a fan of history and obviously based a lot of it on 1930s Germany. At the time it looked like a plausible description of the rise of fascism in a political system much like that in the US.
NotMax
Not reviews so much as summations.
Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
WereBear
Loved Deep Space Nine. It was more complex and I felt Avery Brooks had the proper Shakespearian heft and flair to be a Starship Captain (well, the space station didn’t move, but that didn’t matter.)
WereBear
@Taylor: Babylon 5 was also the first show I saw to use Hubble shots for the backgrounds — awesome!
Adam L Silverman
@Taylor: You do understand what you’ve just done here, right?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qYbVQu7YAQ
debbie
@Baud:
I probably like DS9 the best because there was actual character development and relationships. Hopefully, the episode where Dax tries to get Worf to wear a speedo during their pleasure planet vacation will be reviewed.
patroclus
I predict that they never resolve the question of whether Bajor is ready to join the Federation, that one of the most interesting characters – Gol Dukat – morphs into a one-dimensional red-eyed bad guy that believes in fantasy magic and is so omnipotent that he can be stopped merely by pushing him over a cliff, that there is WAY too much focus on Ferengis with the constant repetitive non-joke about women wearing clothes, that the hero Sisko eventually abandons his new wife and son to become a God, that the ever-present question of “should we initiate a genocide” is explored multitudinous times, that the horrific practice of genetic manipulation is excused for our favorite characters, that show after show is given over to a reprise of the “Comic” (Joe Piscopo) from one TNG episode except this time it’s a Vegas lounge singer from “The Time Tunnel,” that the thought of negotiating a peaceful end to the Dominion War only occurs to the good guys after millions and millions have died, that the montage in the final episode reliving all the great moments will pointlessly leave out Terry Farrell because of a chintzy argument over residuals, that huge efforts will go into recruiting the Romulans for the final assault but they will be inexplicably written out of participation in it in order to include the Lounge singer singing the same song over and over again and that they will constantly use stock footage of prior battles because they can and did I mention that there will be WAY too much focus on the unfunny Ferengis?
Taylor
@Taylor:
For those who console themselves that our media is being critical, the media in B5 do get the proof that President Clark came to power through assassination with the help of the
RussionsShadows….…..and Clark declares martial law, with the military largely in the tank for him.
If that sounds far-fetched, remember that around the time this was airing, tanks were shelling the White Parliament building in Moscow.
pamelabrown53
@sigaba: #2.
The Dominion were indeed scary, plus I loved how during the series’s progression, Odo came to terms with his “changeling” roots. However, nothing struck me deeper than Captain Picard’s tear down his face while be assimilated by the Borg. For me, the Borg got less scary when the crew of “Voyager” started developing tactics and strategies to fight back.
When you talk about character development, the important character, Gul Dukat, didn’t change at all. His lack of change is important to the resolution of the series.
Anyway, we could debate this forever (welcome Sunday Trump diversion) but IMHO, the series dovetail and build on each other. The one thing I didn’t like about DS9 was its bleakness.
Taylor
@Adam L Silverman:
Oldgold
Adam L Silverman
@Taylor: I saw that, but figured to momentarily ignore it to use the Kosh clip.
Adam L Silverman
@patroclus: So you want us all to chip in for the box set for you for your birthday?
Skippy-san
@sigaba: I agree. That episode is a great one. I think DS9 is the best Star Trek show. Gul Dukat bears a huge resemblance to Trump.
pamelabrown53
@debbie: #11,
Loved “Jadzea” Dax. After her demise, I seriously lost some interest in the series.
Major Major Major Major
I never watched much DS9. I think I might join y’all on this if you’re going chronologically, at least at the start! No streaming tonight for me, though, as I’m in the middle of frakking nowhere which is not known for its wifi speed.
OT: How do we feel about Farscape?
@Adam L Silverman: people still buy those?
NotMax
@Taylor
Debatable.
At least in conception by series creator Harlan Ellison, The Starlost, from the 1970s, pre-dated B5. One might even consider the 60s series The Invaders as an earlier entry.
Adam L Silverman
@Major Major Major Major: Works for me, though as is the case with almost every series, some of the first season’s episodes were hit and miss as everyone was still working out the kinks.
Iowa Old Lady
We are all Kosh.
patroclus
@Adam L Silverman: LOL I just finished watching the entire series – one of the local stations has been running them nightly in order for all seasons and I DVR’d every single one. Don’t get me started on Section 31!
Adam L Silverman
@Major Major Major Major: I have no idea, but “get you a subscription to stream the series for your birthday” didn’t have quite the same ring to it.
Adam L Silverman
@patroclus: The first rule of Section 31 is we don’t discuss Section 31.
sigaba
@Adam L Silverman: Dey all on Netflix, boss. I switched back to TNG after Universal pulled all my favorite Emergency! reruns from streaming.
@pamelabrown53: Ezri partisans exist.
@Skippy-san: Gul Dukat was brilliant and merely corrupt and might have even been redeemed before he bacame a galactic prime evil.
Kai Wynn reminds me of Mitch McConnell though.
MomSense
I’ll give DS9 a try if all y’all are going to watch.
patroclus
@Adam L Silverman: I think Sloane could have de-stabilized Trump. On another issue – if you were running the intelligence and operations for the Dominion, would you have constructed the only Weyoun cloning facility in the Alpha Quadrant?
Timurid
@Skippy-san: But Gul Dukat is actually smarter than a pallet of cinder blocks.
Adam L Silverman
@patroclus: Just in time delivery. Its all about shortening the logistics supply chain.
sigaba
@Adam L Silverman: Do you have any perspective of the opinion that Sisko is the one Star Trek captain who most resembles an actual military officer?
ETA- Also I’m sure Sloane could destabilize Trump. A grape embargo could destabilize Trump.)
Yarrow
@Major Major Major Major: Hey there! How’s Iceland? Seen any sun yet?
Major Major Major Major
@Yarrow: i haz pictures to prove it! https://imgur.com/a/J7qAn
raven
no bic
Villago Delenda Est
@sigaba: Agreed. It actually delves into the dark side of everything…so anti-Roddenberry.
WereBear
@NotMax: I found The Invaders episodic. And I own it :)
Some development, sure, and expansion of the Resistance, but not what I’d call any arcing. I mean, Quinn Martin!
Three-nineteen
@Major Major Major Major: WhenI saw Guardians of the Galaxy, I liked it but something about it was bothering me. Then they got to the part where Pratt and Saldana were floating in space and I thought “That’s it! This entire movie is a rehash of Farscape!”
Citizen_X
@Taylor: @Adam L Silverman: SHOTS FIRED.
WereBear
While true in conception, it went off the rails in production, didn’t it?
Mr. Ellison was always, famously, disappointed about it.
amygdala
Gul Dukat is a decent character, but DS9’s awesomest Cardassian is Garak, hands down.
Yarrow
@Major Major Major Major: Very cool! I’m so envious. I’d love to go to Iceland.
Ben Cisco (onboard the Defiant)
I look forward to reading the blog post. Currently rewatching the series myself. My favorite of all the Trek series, clearly.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@sigaba:
My take is that even in sci-fi characters should be of an age roughly approximating their level of stated rank and levels of responsibility. By that metric, Sisko’s age was right. Ryker as well. To me, Picard was too old, Troi too young, Chief O’Brien and Worf just right.
As the TOS movies went, those were ridiculous on age. Sulu, Uhura and Chekhov were way too old by the first movie to do those jobs.
NotMax
@WereBear
Oh, definitely. But in the sense that it was The Fugitive turned sideways, there was at least the umbrella of an arc as motivation.
Also neglected to mention (mostly because the brain desperately tries to shove it back into a dark recess each time it is remembered) the original Battlestar Galactica Or, as we were wont to call it at the time, Battlestar Gacraptica.
EBT
Just skip the baseball episode.
Citizen_X
@WereBear: Never heard of that show before, and just started reading about it in Wikipedia. Great idea, pity about the outcome. Maybe that’s why Ellison was involved with B5: so he would have a chance to see a project like that done properly.
Villago Delenda Est
@amygdala: Agreed there. “They are all true…especially the lies”
Ben Cisco (onboard the Defiant)
@amygdala: Agreed.
Iowa Old Lady
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: Friend of mine says the best part of TOS is that the writers were old enough to have all been in WWII, so they knew things like how the landing party would have to account for all weapons. No character comments on it, but you see them retrieving stunners and checking them in.
Three-nineteen
I see someone referenced the AV Club reviews (do not miss the Rappin’ Jake Sisko comments). If anyone is interested, Mark Watches is on Season 7 of DS9 right now. Mark didn’t see a lot of TV when he was younger, so he is doing reviews of different shows that he knows nothing about. (He didn’t know that ST was where “redshirt” comes from). He is watching the entire ST universe in order, so you can go back and read all his takes on ST as a newbie. His commenters have pretty good insights, too.
Citizen_X
@EBT: Best part of that was Worf’s attempt at infield patter: “Kill the opposing players!”
Brachiator
@NotMax: I loved both DS 9 and Babylon 5. They were different shows with different themes. Had a great time watching an episode of Babylon 5 at a bar in West Los Angeles, attended by JMS himself.
But DS 9 really hit its stride in its later seasons. I guess they added Word to help save the show and bring in more Trekkies, but they were able to deepen his character.
I also loved how the Cardassians were brought on to be the main bad guys, but later had their asses handed to them by the Jem Hadar, who were in turn the flunkies of the Dominion.
Overall, DS 9 deepened what SF could do, and was a very satisfying series.
And I loved Avery Brooks. I only knew him previously from the tv show Spenser for Hire. I liked that he was more than the standard issue Star Trek Officer. Loved Kira and Odo. Dr Bashir had to grow on me, although I liked the actor who played the doctor.
WereBear
It was embarrassing to be the audience!
NotMax
@WereBear
Off the rails, across a field, over a cliff and into a ditch.
At the time, SF fans had but that and Space: 1999 (don’t get me started), so we lapped up what little nourishment we could get.
WereBear
OT: I declare, in order to preserve my soundness of mind, that i have SHUT OFF the auto-correct on all my devices.
It creates far more trouble than it prevents. I’m done.
Archon
I thought one of the most fascinating character development arcs in tv history was that of Demar. He’s a minor character (and a true scumbag) in the beginning who becomes a major character and hero by the end.
Also I like the fact that the Federation are good guys but it’s not Utopian like TNG. The Federation in this show (Sisko included) is not beyond committing extraordinary devious acts for the greater good.
Adam L Silverman
@sigaba: Yes, but… I think the reason for this is the result that four seasons or so of the story arc involve a war with him being the lead protagonist. That requires the character be written differently. Especially given that his story is really rooted in the defeat at Wolf 359 and the death of his wife. There was always a part of his character, whether it was written/intended that way or because of something Avery Brooks decided to work into his portrayal, that seemed to be working to overcome the Post Traumatic Stress of the professional and personal loss at Wolf 359.
Kirk, Picard, Janeway, and Archer were all written to be explorers. And while Kirk was, of course, bounded by the Cold War reality that existed when The Original Series was being conceptualized, written, acted, and produced, his driver was exploration. Despite Enterprise not hitting a decent stride and even keel until its third season, Archer too was an explorer, even though he was one with a chip on his shoulder and something to prove. Picard was clearly someone who was as much scholar as Sailor. And Janeway’s character was bounded within two competing tensions: the unique opportunity to explore where no one from the Federation would ever see for generations and having to be the de facto matriarch of an impromptu nomadic tribe.
Sisko was originally sent to be an administrator and a babysitter. In the former this is equivalent to an officer who’s O6 (colonel/captain) level command isn’t a brigade combat team or other type of brigade or a regimental combat team for a Marine or a ship for a Sailor or an air group or air wing for an Airman. Rather its being a garrison commander or base commander. Important work, especially if the garrison is in a key strategic area (say South Korea or Incirlik in Turkey), that still counts to potentially becoming a general officer/flag officer, but its not being a line unit commander. In the latter, his job was to assess and shepherd the Bajoran’s emergence from occupation to independence and potentially full Federation membership. Its clear in the pilot and first few episodes that he thinks he’s being professionally punished for his actions at Wolf 359 – adding insult to professional loss and personal injury and loss. When the winds of war begin to blow, the character changes. He grows into being an operational commander, first as ship’s captain and then as the equivalent of a fleet commander, and this part of the story arc is longer than what had come before. This is where I think this observation comes from and is correct.
Adam L Silverman
@Ben Cisco (onboard the Defiant): I would never have guessed.//
Brachiator
Forgot to add. I recommend two podcasts. Random Trek talks about random episodes of all tv Trek with a range of guests.
The Audio Guide to Babylon 5 is a look at the show in episode order. They are in the middle of season 4, but earlier episodes are available.
Pogonip
I liked the show, except for Worf. Never liked that character. He had the perfect scam worked out. When Starfleet told him to do something he didn’t want to do, he’d say “I can’t do that! It’s not Klingon!” When the Klingons told him to do something he didn’t want to do, he’d say “I can’t do that, I’m a Starfleet officer!” Had they played it for laughs and made him a 23rd-century Sergeant Bilko, it might have been enjoyable; as it was, it was just annoying that the Klingons and Starfleet never compared notes and caught on. I liked all the other characters, though.
amygdala
@Three-nineteen: @Three-nineteen: The Internet being what it is, there is, of course, a website devoted to Rappin’Jake Sisko’s brilliance. Annotated, no less, and with links to the original AV Club page in which it appeared.
WereBear
It’s all a banquet now, compared to [shudder] Lost in Space, when it went to color.
Pogonip
@Adam L Silverman: That’s because it’s classified.
Adam L Silverman
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: In the US military, O6 (colonel/captain) level command comes after Senior Leader College (SLC) – the war colleges and equivalents (Joint Professional Military Education II/Military Education Level I). These folks are around the 23rd year of service or so and usually in their mid to late 40s depending one when they get routed into the school house.
Pogonip
@Citizen_X: “And boot Worf out the airlock while you’re at it!”–Captain Pogonip
Brachiator
@Adam L Silverman: Voyager found a way to overcome it’s insipid Gilligan’s island premise. Since you knew that they were lost, every episode had to end in failure. The castaways could never get off the island. But I liked Janeway and most of the other characters, except for Paris, Neelix and Kes.
Enterprise just never worked for me. It was the first time that I finally abandoned ship with respect to Trek.
NotMax
@WereBear
The pain, the pain…
Adam L Silverman
@Iowa Old Lady: James Doohan served in the Canadian Army. Watch how he holds his phaser in a lot of episodes. Proper two handed, thumbs forward pistol grip with a proper shooting stance aiming his line of sight down the top of the phaser. He’s the only one who ever does so and eventually they got him to stop as everyone else was shooting their phasers one handed and from the hip.
Pogonip
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: The final script, never filmed, involved the Enterprise searching for a legendary planet where so much Metamucil grows wild that the overwhelmed natives are giving the stuff away by the transporter-load. On the way, they pass the time by holding wheelchair races around the Enterprise.
Shell
And not every episode was centered around that blasted Holo-deck. That was my biggest beef with the NG.
patroclus
@EBT: Why??!! They were in the middle of an inter-galactic war – surely, they had time to take weeks off and try to teach a bunch of aliens how to play a complex game in a holo-suite that it takes years to learn just to prove it to a haughty Vulcan that they can fight back and then rely on an un-athletic clueless Ferengi to score their only run so they could celebrate their “W.” That sort of thing happens all the time – but normally, they don’t rely on a 60’s Vegas lounge singer to provide the inspiration to the clueless Ferengi…
WereBear
@NotMax: LOL!
I did learn something about story structure from that series, though. Without Dr. Smith, the stories would have just sat there, going nowhere. Everyone else is such a goody two shoes, they would never get in trouble.
sigaba
@Adam L Silverman: It’s interesting they didn’t just bump him up to commodore or Admiral. Probably because every Admiral in the Star Trek universe is an incompetent, or a crook, or an intriguer (viz. Nechayev).
We won’t even get into how O’Brien is basically the only NCO in starfleet but still has something like a hundred people on his staff.
Xenos
In your blog post you asked how a French man speaks in a British accent. If one goes to a good school in Paris, or is wealthy, it is assured that you learn proper British English. I work with many francophones, and they aspire to speak the Queen’s English. I can amuse them at great length with American slang. The best is an exaggerated Mid-20th century Brooklyn accent, like that spoken by a cartoon gangster from a Bugs Bunny cartoon.
WereBear
@Shell: My biggest beef with NG was how they were all screaming work-a-holics in the early going. Finally they caught on how stupid it all was and gave them a bar.
And, of course, Wesley.
NotMax
@PogonipWorf in a nutshell:
Navigator: “Approaching Earth, Captain”
Captain: “Assume standard orbit.”
Communications officer: “We’re being hailed.”
Worf: “It could be a trap, Captain.”
Pogonip
@Adam L Silverman: And still managed 100% scores! So I thought I’d try it.
Am now working on getting my range membership restored.
(Some years ago, I was a guest at a range in a burb of lovely Clumbus, Ahia, home of THE Ohio State University. I happened to glance up at the ceiling, which was literally covered with buckshot holes. I remarked that someone had a very bad day. “Oh, yeah,” my host replied, “that’s the [burb] cops, they shoot here every week.”
piratedan
well speaking as a fan of the genre, I simply tried to appreciate the voices of the series as they were presented. All of them added “something” to the conversation from Farscape to Firefly. As a child of the 60’s and having my teeth cut on saturday mornings by Jonny Quest and at nite with Kirk and his intrepid crew, I tried to simply enjoy any series that used their platform to make you think and consider. Withe the dubious exceptions of Quark, Buck Rogers and to a certain extent Battlestar Gallactica, I bought into the stories that tried to breakdown prejudice, justice, might, progress for the sake of progress, ethics, morals, sexuality and political intrigue on various and sundry levels.
Just happy to see a thread touch upon on of my favorite subject matters…
Adam L Silverman
@Brachiator: Watch the third season. There are several very good and enjoyable story arcs: the ones dealing with the augments, Vulcan, and the mirror universe.
Pogonip
@sigaba: Well, he IS the only NCO in Starfleet, and SOMEBODY has to supervise all those seamen! (Spacemen?)
NotMax
@WereBear
And the shambling skunk cabbages. Mustn’t forget them.
;)
WereBear
@NotMax: I sure can’t.
Pogonip
@Shell: I hated that damn thing, too! They might as well have announced at the beginning of every Holodeck episode, ‘Well, the characters have this nifty device that allows them to “go” anywhere, anywhen, but since we have little money and less imagination, we’re going to send them to some historical period for which we have costumes on hand.’ If it looked like the Holodeck was going to be the main plot point, I moved on to the next episode.
Taylor
@Brachiator:
I gave Enterprise a try on Netflix.
The actor playing the Vulcan first officer was hired for two reasons, and two reasons only.
Similarly for 5 of 9 or whatever her name was.
That’s when I decided these guys have form.
Shell
Speaking of sic-fi shows you were rooting for but never quite made it….
Remember ‘seaQuest DSV’ with Roy Scheider.
Tho they did have some great guest stars, from William Shatner to Charleton Heston.
Adam L Silverman
@Pogonip: If you’re training for self defense, specifically in a close quarters scenario, then its something important to practice.
WereBear
@Shell: Roy Scheider was the only reason I watched it, and it was not enough.
sigaba
@Pogonip: Well hmm. The original idea was that only officers served onboard a starship, this developed into the idea that members of Starfleet went to some elite academy type thing. This also corresponded with Roddenberry’s experience on a bomber crew in WW2.
This started breaking down around the time of the 4th or 5th TNG season. O’Brien himself is in the TNG pilot as a lieutenant j.g. but reappears as a “transporter chief” in later episodes, rank unstated. Then Worf’s father visits one day an announces he served for years as a CPO on a ship. All downhill from there :)
Three-nineteen
@amygdala: That is …amazing. Thanks!
patroclus
@Taylor: 7 of 9 played a very important role in the Illinois Senate election of 2004.
T’Pol’s two reasons were to: (1) invent vel-cro; and (2) to be T’Pau from TOS, except that they got into yet another chintzy residuals argument and would have had to pay the original T’Pau actress money, so they changed her name to T’Pol.
sigaba
@Taylor: Jolene Blaylock has been better in other things.
Villago Delenda Est
@Taylor: Jeri Taylor may have been hired for two reasons (three, if you count overall appearance in a cat suit) but damn, the woman can act. Her interactions with Robert Picardo are the savior of the last three seasons of Voyager. One episode in particular, where Seven of Nine and The Doctor swap bodies, was amazing.
greennotGreen
Did anyone besides me ever watch Space: Above and Beyond? It was quite uneven with some episodes that were groaners, but the good ones were wonderful.
Villago Delenda Est
@NotMax: Reminds me of the story of Nichelle Nichols and Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., who visited the set. Nichols was getting tired of having an existence of “opening hailing frequencies”, and was thinking about leaving, and told Dr. King, who immediately responded that she couldn’t do that…she was a role model just by being in a responsible position on the bridge of a starship. In fact, she inspired Whoopi Goldberg to get into acting.
NotMax
@greennotGreen
Perfectly watchable for what it was (Rat Patrol in space). Actually liked that they never really showed the Chigs.
Alain the site fixer
@amygdala: hear hear! The best tv series character EVER! So full of guile, sadness, regret, hope, need for friends, constant efforts to change his path. So very very complex.
Villago Delenda Est
@WereBear:
No one would agree with you more than Wil Wheaton.
Pogonip
@sigaba: Whaddaya mean, all downhill? NCO’s rule!
WereBear
@Villago Delenda Est: He did his best with a really poor idea. I don’t blame him for everyone’s suffering :)
pamelabrown53
@amygdala: #42.
Yes! on Garak as the most interesting Cardassian. Besides his fun sparring with the doctor, you could never pin him down on who he was or his allegiances. The ambiguity of his character drove a lot of plot lines.
Alain the site fixer
@EBT: perhaps that’s good advice, but make it up by rewatching the episode with sci do writers and race bias. That was such a great episode, I can’t even describe what I find so deep about it. Perhaps the tension between the zeal of the creator and the realities of the market and society.
greennotGreen
@NotMax: But I think they did near the end, didn’t they? Didn’t we see a glimpse of aliens on the jungle planet that was where they hatched/incubated their young? Except that we didn’t know at the time those were chigs. I may be remembering it wrong.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Adam L Silverman:
To me, Patrick Stewart seemed eternally 60.
He even looked that age when he was in Excalibur in the early 80s.
And wasn’t he Duncan Idaho in Dune?
Alain the site fixer
@Archon: agreed, Demar’s journey was very well done
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@sigaba:
Preferably nekkid in my bedroom…
Sorry, I’m crushing a little…
NotMax
@WereBear
Ooh, ooh, another SF flash from the past.
The Time Tunnel.
patroclus
@pamelabrown53: Agreed on Garak. But the weird thing was, after all Garak taught Julian about guile and deception, he was clueless on GoT when his sister turned on him and murdered him. It was almost as incomprehensible as Rickon not running zigzag.
Adam L Silverman
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: He was Gurney Halleck in the theatrical release version of Dune.
As for his seeming age, this is what happens when one is prematurely bald/balding.
Villago Delenda Est
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: Richard Jordan was Duncan Idaho. Patrick Stewart was Gurney Halleck.
Ben Cisco (onboard the Defiant)
@Adam L Silverman: Outstanding analysis, as you do.
NotMax
@
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
Also Sejanus in I, Claudius, IIRC.
schrodingers_cat
@Archon: Damar’s arc was amazing. DS9 had great villains too, Dukat and the alpha bitch Kai Winn.
Pogonip
Did anyone else like the tailor? I thought he and the long-suffering brothers of Worf and Quark were the best characters they had. I was sorry when they killed off the tailor’s girlfriend. I was rooting for them to live happily ever after. Maybe in the next version…
greennotGreen
@Villago Delenda Est: I love Wil Wheaton, but I hated Wesley Crusher. He was so brilliant! How many times did he almost destroy the Enterprise? If I’d been Picard after the first time I would have been sorely tempted to drop him off at the first space station to take a freighter back to earth, and the second time, I don’t think I would have bothered with finding a space station.
sigaba
@Adam L Silverman: Season 3 of ENT was the season where Manny Coto was brought in to retool, it was the one season on that show that was really up to snuff.
l@Villago Delenda Est: This was identical to Denise Crosby’s complaints about Yar and she quit after most of one season. And she had a point.
Star Trek didn’t really master aggressive, strong female characters until Ro Laren. They kept trying to write female leads for Michelle Forbes in all the remaining series but she always turned it down: Kira, B’Elana and T’Pal were all written with Forbes at least partly in mind.
NotMax
@Ben Cisco (onboard the Defiant)
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer.
– Ferengi Rule of Acquisition #208
;)
Villago Delenda Est
@schrodingers_cat: Kai Winn was amazing, too, but that’s what you expect from Louise Fletcher.
amygdala
@Three-nineteen: You’re most welcome. Rappin’ Jake was a treasure.
@Alain the site fixer:
@pamelabrown53:
The Wire, with Garak struggling with his addiction to the implant in his head, is a great hour not just of Trek or SF, but of television. And watching Garak mess with Sisko, Dukat, Worf, et al was always a hoot.
Alain the site fixer
@greennotGreen: another sci love of mine. I prefer it in many ways to the BSG reboot. It’s serious as a heart attack.
Villago Delenda Est
@Pogonip: The Tailor is Garak, who everyone has been heaping praise on. Andrew Robinson is a stellar character actor.
patroclus
@Adam L Silverman: But when Gurney released the “atomics” in advance of the worms’ final assault in order to break through the shields, shouldn’t there have been a lot of radiation, like at Hiroshima and Nagasaki? I mean, I realize that the spice must flow, but why would Gurney have made it irradiated spice?
Pogonip
@Villago Delenda Est: Poor Will Wheaton. He will probably be remembered for Wesley rather than “Stand By Me.”
I remember reading that darn near everyone including the studio janitor tried to reason with Roddenberry about Wesley. No luck.
sigaba
@Pogonip: Garak is a truly great Star Trek character, even if he was just a simple tailor. Andrew Robinson has also written a very good Star Trek novel based on Garak’s backstory.
Taylor
@NotMax: And Lenin in Fall Of Eagles.
WereBear
@NotMax: Rack up the Irwin Allen: see ya and raise ya — Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea.
Alain the site fixer
@sigaba: that explains some of their appeal; I do like Michelle a lot and her Ro Laren is worthy of a series on her own!
schrodingers_cat
@Villago Delenda Est: I love how she sets Kira’s teeth on edge when she call her, child.
Villago Delenda Est
@Pogonip: Wesley was the “Mary Sue” for Gene Roddenberry. Which is why he didn’t listen.
Alain the site fixer
@sigaba: oohh…thank you, must read!
Pogonip
@Villago Delenda Est: Yes! That was the character’s name. I’d forgotten it. Fine actor. I liked the one where he flipped out (I forget why) and stalked and killed several redshirts. At the end, when he was in his right mind, he apologized. A nice touch.
Pogonip
@sigaba: Really? If I can find a cheap copy I’ll read it.
Alain the site fixer
@schrodingers_cat: Kai Winn is such a great character arc, a good example for current prez to have learned from! Unworthy pursuers of power that take shortcuts are themselves just vessels for someone else…
Adam L Silverman
@patroclus: I have no idea, not my area of specialty. I will say that the Sci-Fi miniseries of Dune was much better than the theatrical release movie. Some of that was tech changes in regards to the effects. Some of it was having three times the amount of time to tell the story over three nights rather than a 2 and 1/2 hour movie.
khead
I WILL FIGHT ANYONE SAYING BAD THINGS ABOUT THE FIRST BATTLESTAR GALACTICA AND THEN SEND APOLLO’S GHOST TO MAKE YOU WATCH GALACTICA 1980. BUCK ROGERS TOO. I AM AWARE OF ALL INTERNET TRADITIONS.
Ben Cisco (onboard the Defiant)
@patroclus: Ok, THAT was funny. Sardonic wit.
Alain the site fixer
And yes DS9 is pretty much my favorite tv series after Doctor Who.
Villago Delenda Est
@Pogonip: As a former officer myself, I can tell you this is absolutely true. Good NCOs can make mediocre officers look brilliant.
sigaba
@khead: Nobody tell khead that Battlestar Galactica was cancelled or else he’ll have to go on suicide watch.
(I’m from Minnesota so I can make that joke.)
NotMax
@WereBear
Shouldn’t that be “lower ya,” then?
;)
sigaba
@Pogonip: I think if the series was going to have non-comms and seamen it needed more than one. They broke Roddenberry’s rule and replaced it with bandaids and exceptions that made no sense.
And really the only reason they broke Roddenberry’s rule is because they wanted the guy who ran the transporter to be a character but not enough of a character that he’d interact with the rest of the cast and spoil plot points.
Alain the site fixer
@khead: sing it, though Buck Rogers had some good moments and great vision of tech, so different than anything else. It’s a shame it wasn’t better as having a third tech universe beyond ST and SW would be nice. And no, Babylon 5 isn’t enough. The BR vision of AI seamlessly being part of our world was interesting and visionary.
amygdala
@Alain the site fixer:
@Pogonip:
It can be tough to find in print, but there’s a Kindle version, if you have one of those. I got an electronic version that I could read on my laptop from Powell’s, but it looks like they don’t carry it any more.
The back story behind the book is kinda cool. Andy kept a diary of sorts of Garak, who was initially planned to be a one-off character. The powers that be quickly realized what a good recurring character he’d be, and Andy wrote a history of the character as the series unfolded. That eventually became the book.
sigaba
@Pogonip: Yeah “Stitch in Time” was the name of Andrew Robinson’s Garak novel. Used paperbacks are around $50 on Amazon so you get a sense of the sort of interest around it.
Alain the site fixer
@amygdala: cheers, downloading it now. The history of it makes it even more of interest.
amygdala
@Villago Delenda Est: Did you see Andy Robinson in the original Dirty Harry? He was so frighteningly convincing as the murderous psychopath that he got typecast for years afterwards, in addition to hate mail.
Alain the site fixer
@Alain the site fixer: oh and less fascinated by Twiki and more
by the ai he carries around plus all the other ai tech that is treated as normal as a door or wall are.
schrodingers_cat
@Alain the site fixer: I was kinda sorry that they killed Opaka, so early in the series.
amygdala
@Alain the site fixer: Enjoy. I’ll be interested to hear what you think of it!
NotMax
@Alain the site fixer
Mel Blanc laughed all the way to the bank.
sigaba
@amygdala: A lot of the great DS9 characters were supposed to be one-offs. Dukat’s lieutenant Damar, and his daughter Ziyal were all supposed to be throwaways but Damar becomes a central character, really the entire Cardassian arc pivots around him, and Ziyal sticks around for a season and instigates Dukat’s descent.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Alain the site fixer:
My primary gripe with the Star Wars universe is in all the human piloting and targeting.
You have an entire galaxy full of AI, and people are at the controls?
My other gripe with Star Wars is a query on why anyone lives on Tatooine.
sigaba
@schrodingers_cat: There will be more Kais (and how!).
You could probably fill an entire season of DS9 just with the machinations of the various Vedic factions.
swiftfox
Never could get into DS9. Too character-driven, no focus, irritating Ferengis and Bashir. It was only with the Entertainment Weekly that reviewed all of the episodes from ST, TNG, and DS9 that they mentioned the complexity that DS9 developed later on. I notice BBC-A has added ST (uncut) and Voyager to its lineup but not DS9. Is there a contractual issue? Voyager, to me, is like Data’s poetry: clever but that was about it.
Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes
@Alain the site fixer:
Now that I think about it, the ships in Trek are over-crewed, given the extent of AI available.
Ben Cisco (onboard the Defiant)
@greennotGreen: Yes. Was sorry to see it go, but it was a FOX property so not entirely unexpected.
Ben Cisco (onboard the Defiant)
@sigaba: I resemble that remark!
amygdala
@sigaba: I didn’t know Damar was originally a one-off. Another memorable character, on a show that had a lot of them.
Mnemosyne
@Villago Delenda Est:
Along those lines, I suspect the reason why the Ferengi got so much screen time was because Armin Shimerman was so good in his role (yes, I’m blanking on the character’s name and I’m too lazy to look it up).
sigaba
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: We never really got a breakdown of operational crew versus science but you got the impression that the actual administration and engineering of the ship didn’t employ that many people, most of the people on board were running science labs, or were using the Enterprise for passage on some diplomatic assignment or whatever.
WereBear
@NotMax: Now we are talking Land of the Giants. One idea used over and over.
But it was desperate times.
Alain the site fixer
Pizza is on the way so perhaps I’ll start DS9 again. I’m three from the end but I can watch those later to keep fresh in mind for this series of critiques.
NotMax
@Mnemosyne
Quark.
Rom was the better character; much less one dimensional. The actor managed to reach into depths the writers never envisioned.
sigaba
@amygdala: Damar shows up as a background character, one of Dukat’s lackeys. Then as Dukat gets more interesting, suddenly he needs a Smithers, so Damar gets that job. And then as Dukat’s allegiances and motivations become more complicated…
Oh also. GENERAL MARTOK and and GOWRON. Man that show has a lot of amazing characters.
scav
@sigaba: Well, that and they needed a supply of people available so the plots could encounter danger without killing off leads. Seemed to be a lot of room on the ships, judging from the windows.
sigaba
@NotMax: Also fun: Andrea Martin played Quarks mother once.
NotMax
@WereBear
Oy vey. Kurt Kasznar was no Jonathan Harris, that’s fer sure.
Mnemosyne
@Villago Delenda Est:
Dr. Mae Jemison, the first African-American woman in space, started each day on the space shuttle by saying, “Hailing frequencies open” in tribute to Nichelle Nichols. And she got to have a cameo on TNG, too.
khead
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
Yes they are. Kirk, Scotty, Sulu and Chekov took the Enterprise to Genesis.
schrodingers_cat
@pamelabrown53: Both Dukat and Winn became one dimensional in the last season. I was not a fan of the Pah Wraith plot line.
Shell
I felt so sorry for those actors, when the show became nothing more than ‘monster of the week’. Tho it was kinda fun to guess which monster costume was nabbed from ‘Lost In Space’.
WereBear
@Shell: Early on Robert Duvall played an alien!
The first episode I watched when it resurfaced after decades was written by Cordwainer Bird; which was Harlan Ellison’s pen name when he didn’t like what had been done to his work :)
Pogonip
@sigaba: “Damar! Release the hounds!”
Pogonip
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: Houses are cheap there?
Pogonip
@amygdala: I’ll order the Kindle sample and see what I think! Thank you!
NotMax
@WereBear
Even as a kidlet at the time remember thinking, “Whose bright idea was it to put the access to the ocean in the middle of the engine room?”
Pogonip
@Villago Delenda Est: They get a lot of practice. ?
Elmo
@khead: BEE – DE – BEE – DE – BEEP
Another Scott
@WereBear: But it had Ben Cartwright! And they had units like “yar-ons”!
:-/
Cheers,
Scott.
(Dun didl dun didl dun didl dun didl Da Da! Dun didl dun didl dun didl dun didl Dum Didl Dum Dum Dum!)
Villago Delenda Est
@amygdala: Yup. Did you see him on one episode of L.A. Law as a multiple personality disorder accused killer? He was brilliant in that, too.
Villago Delenda Est
@sigaba: Cecily Adams, daughter of Don, took over that role when Andrea Martin was not available for an episode. Cecily had seen the episode, and went into the casting session saying “do you want me to do it as Andrea Martin would?”, did so, and blew away everyone else they were considering.
EBT
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: Same reason people live in Alabama. You were born there and are too poor to leave.
Skippy-san
@sigaba: I can accept all of those conclusions. I am also an Ezri partisan. I liked her for quite lustful reasons, and envied Worf for getting to know her in the biblical sense. ?
Brachiator
@Adam L Silverman:
Can’t do it. The characters failed to register for me, which makes it difficult to enjoy any of the stories. I found the universe that Enterprise is set in failed in too many ways. I hated the way that everything Vulcan was shown. I saw a couple of the later episodes, and they failed to draw me in.
Skippy-san
Surprised no one has mentioned Earth Final Conflict in the list of sci-fi shows. It was Roddenberry’s last TV effort.
Skippy-san
@swiftfox: Sky Atlantic has been running DS9.
amygdala
@Villago Delenda Est: Drat, no! I bet he was great. He was a scientist in an XFiles ep. In a just universe, he’d have a shelf full of Emmys and an Oscar.
Brachiator
@sigaba:
Frasier Crane was only supposed to appear in a few episodes of “Cheers.” I love it when a show’s creators recognize story possibilities in guest characters or secondary characters, especially when that leads to shifts of direction or a deeper development.
The opposite situation is when writers clearly have lost interest or are just going through the motions to satisfy contractual obligations. Often, characters are made to do stupid things just to flesh out a lame storyline. This happened, for example, in the last seasons of “LA Law.”
Villago Delenda Est
@amygdala: The episode is called “He’s a crowd” and it is a tour de force.
Temporarily Max McGee (Until Death!)
@Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
In case no one has delved so far back yet, Stewart looked the same when he played Sejanus in I, Claudius (1976).
Sloane Ranger
Coming late to the discussion. I have a fondness for the Maquis story arc but I always found Sisco’s certainty in the rightness of the Federation’s position to be out of character. I felt the Federation’s actions were morally grey and good cases could be argued for both sides.
In the same vein I liked the Michael Eddington character. It had a lot of potential for development and exploration of what motivated him but this was wasted, presumably because the show runners were scared to look deeply into the idea that the Federation could be wrong or even morally bankrupt.
schrodingers_cat
@Sloane Ranger: Besides the Dominion arc, the Maquis arc and the Bajoran politics arc were the most interesting to me. Sisko is a military officer, all said and done Starfleet most resembles a navy, so whatever his personal feelings he is going to follow Federation orders. And yes, the Federation does come across as indescribably smug at times.
Pogonip
@Sloane Ranger: Yes, I was getting interested in the Maquis storyline when suddenly they dropped it.
sigaba
@Villago Delenda Est: Andrew Robinson’s always going to be That Guy from Hellraiser for me.