Saw this on the WaPo front page first thing this morning, and it’s been bugging me all day (but I was too busy to complain about it here until now):
Moore made a fortune picking through the ruins of the Rust Belt, which makes sense because manufacturing decline decimated his hometown. The Rust Belt killed Democrats’ hopes this year, and according to the “I Told You So” caucus, which occasionally includes Moore, it was because Democrats forgot the white working class. So it’s not surprising Moore would see the dawn of the Trumpocalypse as his Big Moment.
But the spontaneous resistance that rose up after Trump’s election was led mostly by women and non-white people. I’m not saying white men aren’t a part of it and have no place in it. They are, and they definitely do. But the groups that are flooding town halls and crowding meetings are local people who are worried about losing their rights and healthcare, not laid off factory workers or coal miners. (Maybe they’re still waiting for Trump and his cabinet of plutocrats to reverse green energy trends or enact tariffs that don’t backfire.)
I don’t mean to slag on Moore — his films, especially his early stuff, IMO, were groundbreaking and necessary. Like me, he was an idiot Naderite in 2000, but he also learned his lesson. He was a Bernie guy last year, but he came out strongly for Clinton after the primaries ended and did his best to bring hold-outs into the tent before the voting started. Good for him.
But the resistance movement needs participants, not celebrity leadership, and especially not the leadership of celebrities who’ve made a decades-long career out of being professional leftists. That’s no knock on celebrity activists or famous professional leftists — if they’re with us, I for one am happy to have them. But behind the crowd, please. Not in front. What do y’all think?
Baud
Moore was the worst part of the Women’s March. Brought the DNC Chair race into the event. Ashley Judd had to cut him off.
Yarrow
Leadership will come from the resistance itself. Outside celebrities will not be its leaders. If it is not done this way then it will be a failed movement. End of story.
Cogitari Safari
“The resistance” needs EVERY BODY. And we don’t need to waste time telling which participants get to sit in front of the bus and which ones should sit in back.
Yarrow
@Baud: Agreed. It wasn’t a good idea to invite him. Glad he got cut off.
Villago Delenda Est
On the sidelines, cheering on.
Susan Sarandon should just stay home.
Jeffro
No more old warriors, people with long histories of any kind, or easy targets. I don’t care if some of the animosity towards MM wasn’t earned. Fresh faces, short resumes, forward-facing happy warriors please!
jacy
I don’t hate Micheal Moore, but I often find him insufferable, the same way I find Bill Maher often insufferable. He had his hobbyhorses that he will just not dismount, and he thinks he’s always right. Sometimes he’s very right, but then so are a lot of other people who can be at the forefront. And I don’t think he’s the kind of leadership the left needs. He can be a voice, but he needs to know when to shut and get out of the way.
Baud
The few times I saw him on MSNBC, he wasn’t playing this role. He supported Clinton over Trump, but I wouldn’t call it strong or doing his best.
I’m happy to be wrong based on a small sample size, and I don’t want to relitigate the election, but this struck me as factually inaccurate.
Xboxershorts
He does have a place. But agree with ya, not in front.
His movie Where should the US invade next” was moving for me.
piratedan
couldn’t he simply make movies that are factual and tell the stories that need to be told…you know stuff like
where does your health care money really go?
the hypocrisy of american Christian fundamentalists
why weren’t any of the wall street nabobs jailed
how VW screwed the pooch and the public on how they doctored the pollution tests
I mean, there’s stuff out there that needs to be illuminated in a way that only a filmaker can
Roger Moore
Moore seems like a would be leader who sees a parade he wants to get in front of. We need people who are willing to do the hard work of organizing, not celebrity spokesbots trying to revive their flagging careers.
Baud
That said, since the Rust Belt is his thing, I would love to see him lead the charge in taking back Michigan, Ohio, and Wisconsin. That would impress me more than leading a protest against Trump.
Lapassionara
If he really really wants to lead a resistance, just do it, and don’t talk about it. See if anyone follows. I am doing what I can locally, mostly just turning up and trying to get others to do so. He could do the same where he lives.
raven
@Baud: Except for Madonna.
Uncle Omar
Since the deportation machine is roaring into action might I suggest a class of individuals who should be snatched up, have their green cards cancelled, and sent on their way…Pederasts from the UK.
philadelphialawyer
Seeing as Moore always has all the answers, why doesn’t he run for office? What better way to lead “the Resistance” than by running for Governor of Michigan in 2018? Or, as mentioned above, he can make films.
Baud
@raven: I actually didn’t see the Madonna thing, although I know of the controversy.
laura
Michael Moore can head straight to the back of the line. If the resistance is going to have a leader, let that heretofore unknown woman or man of color step on up.
Mnemosyne
He actually did have a pretty interesting article this summer where he predicted that the Rust Belt would vote for Trump because white people there were pissed about losing their cultural superiority and were too misogynistic to vote for a woman.
Weird how he sometimes seems to forget or downplay his own insights when they actually pay off.
Baud
@Mnemosyne: That is interesting. Good for him for identifying those causes.
Cogitari Safari
Have you actually READ the article? The title is sensational click-bait, but there is NOTHING in the article itself where Moore states he wants to “lead the movement” or anything like it.
&
Moore has created a website and hopes that lots of people visit it. That’s a far cry from the WaPo title, but admittedly much more mundane and less likely to get clicks. The article actually spends more time, words, and paragraphs on the French Resistance than it does on anything Moore is doing. And yet, here we are, wasting time arguing over whether or not Michael Moore should lead a movement when he never even suggested such a thing. WaPo mission accomplished.
Steve in the ATL
As a forty-something white male professional, I feel totally marginalized. Is there no place for me in America anymore?!
JGabriel
Betty Cracker @ Top:
My take on it is that Moore has a lot of fans, and if he can bring them in, then more power to him.
I agree that we don’t need celebrity leadership, nor do we need Moore at the forefront. But I’d be fine with giving him a place near-ish to the front, from where he can rally his supporters and bring them in to the resistance and the Democratic fold?
Baud
@Cogitari Safari: Good call. I hate when we get fooled by the media like that. Let’s change the subject.
rikyrah
Uh.. Moore can go somewhere and sit down ???
Ruckus
@jacy:
I think this is true. We need fresh faces, not because our last candidate wasn’t good, she was. But people like MM have egos that they want to feed, not that anyone who would want to be president doesn’t. But we need the resistance to be just general people. Overwhelmingly average people. Sure we will need a leader at some point but MM is not that person and should not insert himself into that position.
@Villago Delenda Est:
I agree with this 100%
raven
@Steve in the ATL: The Vortex!
Jim, Foolish Literalist
“occasionally”?
every time I was aware of him from ’08 to ’16, he was trailing in the wake of Cornel West and bleatily shrieking Green Lantern emo-prog shit about how Obama didn’t really want Unicorns of various colors, with sparkles and strawberry scented farts. Again, maybe I missed it, but when was the last time he was actually funny? He’s welcome to go prove me wrong by taking down the Michigan GOP and making all those WWC’s he’s oh-so in touch with to understand that good labor laws and a strong social safety net and progressive taxation and a real infrastructure bill are more important than paranoid fantasies about your guns and bibles being confiscated. Until then, he and his whole schtick can fuck the fuck off.
Baud
Here’s a good sign from CNN.
Fingers crossed.
laura
And another thing, America needs a new,or better New Deal. What worked well (but excluded too many) in the past could work better today. Trade Unions could apprentice the hell out of the Un and under employed. Rebuild and replace our infrastructure. If Michael Moore wanted to make a movie about that, I’d pay to see it.
It’s what was needed in response to the great recession and the need hasn’t abated. Work needs to be done. People need to work.
You’d think it was more complex than that. It isn’t.
Interest rates are still zero. It’s literally never been this cheap and affordable.
Yarrow
@Ruckus:
I’ve heard a couple of times now that the protesters are paid. And that they don’t know what they’re protesting or why.
I figure if that’s a talking point coming from Fox, then the ordinariness of the people must be getting to them. Let’s keep it up!
bupalos
@Baud: I’m a rust belt baby and the thing about Moore here is that he’s just damaged goods for the thing you’d think he should be good at, connecting with blue collar workers. He may have insights into their behavior, but he’s total poison as far as outreach. For me, it’s a similar story as with Hillary or Bill. I don’t need to litigate their personal sincerity, I don’t really care – these folks simply can’t be effective champions for the cause at this point, in large part because they have made (anywhere from very to very very very) lucrative careers out of essentially failing efforts over decades, and have no “native” appeal anymore, but tons of baggage.
Hal
Laugh of the day:
Hamster Mom is mean
Lapassionara
@Baud: yeah. I got fooled on the asteroid. Supposed to hit February 16. An extinction event, I read. so, no more relying on headlines!
jl
I read the story and I think the title is WaPo editorial clickbait.
What Moore did is set up a webpage to publicize anti-Trump events around the country.
If it is good and works, and gets attention, then we can use that type of leadership.
Moore seems like the type of guy who likes attention.
Putting up a useful web page is better than grandstanding.
If we keeps running around granstanding like he tends to do, then I’d say to him, ‘Hey Mike, don’t you have a webpage to run, big guy?’
Edit: But if he decides to hog all the ‘leadership’, who will order him to eat the meatloaf? Huh?
Edit2: actually, I don’t think Moore is capable of leadershipping in an organizational way that will give anyone anything to worry about. He can talk it about and run after the spotlight all he wants. Won’t do any good.
Miss Bianca
@philadelphialawyer: I’d actually like to see him put his money where his mouth is and run for office. Maybe not governor, but perhaps Congress? Hell, he can always film it along the way.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
OT: Here’s a powerful defense of your party’s president
Yarrow
@laura: I think we need a fresh, new filmmaker who’s a kind of hybrid of Michael Moore and Ken Burns to do an activist documentary about why the New Deal was so great and why we need an updated version of it now.
rikyrah
Anyone here watch Timeless?
Baud
@bupalos: As fond as I’ve grown of Hillary, I agree that it would be a foolish idea to make her the outreach person to white people in the midwest. But neither she nor anyone else is proposing that, so that’s a moot point.
Baud
@rikyrah: Yes.
Baud
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Hahaha.
Lapassionara
@Yarrow: Well, I went and protested outside of a senator’s office today. I knew why I was there, and I will not be paid, since no one took my name. It is easy to do, and it makes me feel some better, to be among people who agree with me on the big things.
Schlemazel
@Cogitari Safari:
I’m with you on this. We do not need to play out the bernie/clinton thing yet again. Everyone is welcome on this train is they are willing to shovel coal into the boiler. I get not wanting him as ‘the’ leader but the man can shovel a lot of coal. Please. lets not do this
Chip Daniels
What created the Tea Party and the resulting radicalization of the GOP was the realization that the era of White Christian Male dominance was ending, personified by Obama.
As a rather pasty white middle aged man, I can say that we need to step back a moment and let the voices of nonwhite, nonmale people be heard, and speak about their own experiences and take the leadership role.
I’m happy to join and be a part of it, but just as with the women who spontaneously rose up in the Women’s March, not every resistance needs a white guy heading it up.
JPL
NOPE!
MoxieM
He is a good filmmaker, and I for one would like to see him back…behind a camera, and shut up in an editing room and so forth. The Trumpeteria has provided such an abundance of material it might be hard to know where to start, even for Michael Moore, but if anyone could do, he could.
As for “the” Resistance, seems to me we are leading ourselves fairly competently at the moment. Surprising to all the white guys out there, I know (and yes, of course they are very welcome to participate, but just for once, can they not always, always, dominate?)
kindness
The whole ‘How do we handle the people that voted Democratic 20/30/40 years ago and haven’t lately’ thing is gonna be ugly no matter what.
I don’t understand why but apparently those middle class folk that have made AWFUL decisions at the ballot box now really really need us to forgive them, give them all blowjobs and never mention their awful decisions at the ballot box in order to maybe get them to think about voting Democratic again.
Fuck them and the Trump they rode in on.
Baud
@kindness: You made Chris Matthews cry.
Another Scott
@Baud: I liked some of what he was saying at the WM, but I didn’t like other stuff. His encouragement to run for office was good. His beating up on the Democratic Party, wasn’t.
Moore is good at making movies that argue for his point of view. I don’t think he’s good at leading a broad-based organization working for political change. We don’t need some Leader to impose a grand unifying vision on the various movements at the moment. We need lots of people participating in their own ways, arguing for their own issues, and making the resistance to Trump as broad-based as possible. Moore is too polarizing for what’s needed now.
Cheers,
Scott.
bupalos
@Baud: I don’t think any of those 3 have any positive political value for the party at this point. I think politically the best thing they can probably do for the party is disappear so that they aren’t using any oxygen from new leadership and new branding.
Oatler.
@Schlemazel: Agreed. I like the guy but I’d pay extra to hear Susie Essman call him a fat four-eyed fuck.
Cogitari Safari
@bupalos: Sounds more like the RW propaganda has worked. Fox, Rush, Hannity, et al, have made their careers demonizing the Clintons and Moore. Granted, the Clintons have some baggage (show me a politician who has been around since last century who has no baggage), but what “baggage” has been saddled onto Moore? From what I see in the south, it’s more about what what right wingers have swallowed about these people that is a red flag for them. For them, “Pizzagate” and “Benghazi” were real and tangible article of “baggage” for Hillary. I don’t let the propaganda stop me from discussing or supporting these individuals. THAT is the whole reason for the propaganda in the first place – demonize the individual (or party) to the point where the mere mention of the name shuts down discussion because Hillary/Moore/Democrats/Clenis are evil to them. Just because THEY try to shut down the debate does not mean I will shut up about it. If that happens, the GOP terrorists win. ;^)
So, yeah. What baggage do you see Moore carrying? Is there some Alex Jones claim out there that he killed Elvis, or did I miss something?
skip
Unfortunately, celeb’s wield disproportionate power in our culture. They are a force multiplier. If their presence discourages people who are not members of the dominant cisgender, white minority then they are a liability… else wise everyone should be welcome. This is also a problem for the left. On the right, as Milo proves, it is very hard for anyone to be ostracized from the tribe. If you hate the right people, they really don’t care if you follow any of the 10 Commandments, bathe regularly or engage in carnal acts with farm animals. Conversely on left we scrutinize idiotic minutiae about prospective friends & allies until we effectively whittle the guests list down to zero.
Baud
@Another Scott:
Agreed. It wasn’t all bad — he just went off track and went for too long.
@bupalos: I disagree. I would be offended if we shunned Bill and/or Hillary.
laura
@Yarrow: And Barbara Koppel the hell out of it!
Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (Formerly Mumphrey, et al.)
You’re right. If he wants to lend a hand, then I’m all for him. But whoever ends up being the leaders of this movement will come from within. I don’t think most of us are going to have a lot of patience for anybody who tries to swoop down and take over.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@bupalos: Bubba seems to have lost his spark, but maybe he’ll get it back. I suspecting a couple of years HRC is going to look good to a lot of indie/totebagger types who were terribly worried about emails (and what’s that you say about the estate tax? Well mother and dad are getting on in years, and their house in leafy suburb is now worth.. but of course that has no effect on our vote…), but I think she should follow Gore’s model and focus on one issue.
ETA: @Oatler.: I miss Curb!
Feebog
Moore is a documentary filmmaker, not an organizer. He should stick to what he does well. You want a celebrity spokesperson for the left; Al Franken is available and also in a position to actually accomplish something.
Pogonip
Adam, are you there? If so–there are rumors going around the active and retiree communities of a 2019 BRAC. What, if anything, have you heard? Pace my friends who are praying for an early out, I don’t think this is the best time for a BRAC.
Cogitari Safari
@Yarrow: This x10.
2nd answer: If you have opened eyes, you can see the benefits of the New Deal most anywhere.
3rd answer: It’s those who insist on keeping their eyes closed who need to see such a thing the most. They’ll never watch it.
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud: Bill and Hillary are part of the party’s past now. They should be, and I think they will act as, respected elders cheering from the sidelines and doing good works with their foundation. There is no reason to hide them in the back of the closet, but they can’t be our go-to people anymore.
Mart
@piratedan: You have no idea what you are talking about, do you?
where does your health care money really go? He made “Sicko” in 2007
the hypocrisy of american Christian fundamentalists – Many of his films reflect on this including “Bowling for Columbine” and “Fahrenheit 9/11”
why weren’t any of the wall street nabobs jailed – He made – “Capitalism: A Love Story” (2009)
how VW screwed the pooch and the public on how they doctored the pollution tests – WTF – this is on you top four? (I am biased; I cleared $7,400 penalty profit trading in my 2015 VW diesel Passat.)
I really like Moore, realize he ain’t perfect, but if most folks in America shared his views we would have a lot nicer country.
debbie
@bupalos:
He could put his money where his mouth is and focus on local elections.
sigaba
Roger & Me is still a go-to documentary. He was also involved with, though did not direct, the best 1980s documentary about the Michigander White Supremacist movement, Blood in the Face.
Characteristically, he committed to making Roger & Me after he quit “Mother Jones,” for the ostensible reason that he wanted to do stories about labor issues and the WWC, while the editorial board wanted exposes on “counterfeit herbal tea” (that’s how he characterized it).
My point being, he’s been patrolling this particular plot of leftism for a very long time and while I agree he shouldn’t be in the lead of the revolution, he’s not being opportunistic either. These issues are very near and dear and central to his worldview. He’s probably also forgotten more about labor issues and white racial solidarity than most leftist activists have ever known.
Baud
@Omnes Omnibus: Oh, I agree. I’m not saying that should play an active management role in the party. For that matter, I feel the same way about Obama (although circumstances are a little different with him because of Trump). I was responding to the argument that they should just disappear.
bupalos
@Baud: There’s no way and no need to “shun” them, I’m just saying I hope they exercise extreme restraint and don’t allow their visibility to obstruct new leaders moving forward. It’s hard for me to imagine how they generate positive political capital and pretty easy for me to imagine how they can get in the way. Moore especially, but the Clintons too and I wouldn’t exempt Bernie from that either. We need a reset, and one that doesn’t underestimate how dire some of the forces that resulted in this travesty are.
Mart
@piratedan: @piratedan: Either you are kidding or you have no idea what you are talking about, do you?
where does your health care money really go? – He made “Sicko” (2007)
the hypocrisy of american Christian fundamentalists – Many of his films reflect on this including “Bowling for Columbine” and “Fahrenheit 9/11”
why weren’t any of the wall street nabobs jailed – He made – “Capitalism: A Love Story” (2009)
how VW screwed the pooch and the public on how they doctored the pollution tests – WTF – this is on you top four? (I am biased; I cleared $7,400 penalty profit trading in my 2015 VW diesel Passat.)
I really like Moore, realize he ain’t perfect, but if most folks in America shared his views we would have a lot nicer country.
Omnes Omnibus
@Baud: I was agreeing with you and expanding on it.
Baud
@Omnes Omnibus: Thanks!
Baud
@bupalos: Then we might not disagree. Bernie is a harder case to deal with in this regard because he still holds political office.
bemused
I liked Where to Invade Next a lot and his recent Trumpland thing was interesting too. oth, he can drive me up a wall at times.
Speaking of movies, remember when Red Dawn was one of the top favorite movies for rightwingers? So patriotic. I wonder how they’d remake it now in Twittler times.
jl
@Chip Daniels:
” What created the Tea Party ”
Was astroturf by reactionary corporations and billionaires. Now if Moore were chartering buses, scooters and printing up thousands of protest signs, and caging a lot of cranky old white people by offering free box lunches to go to random protests of whatever, then he would be a real tea party style leader.
mai naem mobile
No. I personally find him annoying but that is okay. He can contribute but lead – no. He speaks to a pretty small part of the Democratic Party.
gene108
IIRC Roger and Me came out in 1989.
I am not sure why it took 25-30 years for the WWC to vote based on their economic anxiety. Their patience in adversity is remarkable.
Raven Onthill
If success is a sign of corruption, than we’re pretty much doomed; we will never have competent leaders. I don’t know about all y’all, but I want to see a politically and financially competent leadership; I just don’t want a corrupt one.
SiubhanDuinne
Absolutely!! Nothing against Moore per se — I’ve mentioned previously on this blog that he was one of my “community producers” when I worked for the (long-defunct) NPR station in Flint, several years before he got famous. But this resistance movement already is, and needs to continue to be, organic. The right leadership will emerge and it will look like whatever it looks like, but it won’t look like Michael Moore in a pussyhat.
Miss Bianca
@Hal: Love it. Love.It.
zhena gogolia
@Yarrow:
Putin playbook.
jl
@Yarrow:
” I figure if that’s a talking point coming from Fox, then the ordinariness of the people must be getting to them. Let’s keep it up! ”
Or they just figure that is the only way protest happens. You bus in some ringers to go yell someplace and feed them.
Alain the site fixer
Is it just me or is the mobile site much slower than it was before my changes today?
bupalos
@Raven Onthill: Who was successful?
Alain the site fixer
Well that was speedy but geez it loaded slower than I can remember.
Chip Daniels
@jl:
Yes, the logistics were astroturf, but the underlying passion and freakout were genuine.
White people, old white people especially lost their shit in 2008 and 2016 is their backlash.
That Flight 93 guy wasn’t kidding- they know demographics are against them, that this was their last best chance to stand their ground against a world they hate and fear.
hovercraft
@rikyrah: Yes I do.
jacy
@Another Scott:
I feel like Michael Moore and Bernie Sanders both kind of attract people via “cult of personality,” and that’s not even all their fault. Obama was different because he tended to make people believe in themselves as opposed to blindly following. We need more of that, more empowerment. I think with less polarizing figures, there’s more a sense of genuineness that can be very inspirational. And when you get really polarizing figures like Sanders and Moore, to much time is lost relitigating the past and falling into useless infighting. I fully support both of them being involved and lending their expertise and helping everybody haul together, but the left needs to stop looking for the magic bullet in terms of “a personality.” That way lies Donald Trump.
khead
The last thing the Democratic Party needs right now is Michael Moore out in front channeling Mudcat Saunders.
Pogonip
@Alain the site fixer: It works OK for me on an Iphone.
trollhattan
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Curb is coming back!
Note to self: prepare hiding space between sofa cushions.
Steve in the ATL
@bemused:
Republicans would welcome the Russian soldiers as liberators and collaborate with them to round up liberals
Yarrow
@zhena gogolia: Which part? The paying protesters? Or the Fox News claims the protesters are paid? Or both?
@jl: Well, the Tea Party stuff sure was astroturfed and promoted on Fox. So…
Chip Daniels
We also need younger, fresher faces to build our bench, and move beyond celebrities.
I rather like our new Senator, Kamala Harris for example.
Alain the site fixer
@Pogonip: ok how does the block quote look I see a bar on he left not the blue box around it.
Mnemosyne
@Chip Daniels:
Yup. The number of my fellow white liberals who refuse to acknowledge that still kind of astounds me.
Steve in the ATL
@SiubhanDuinne:
Guess I’ll be skipping dinner now….
Betty Cracker
@Cogitari Safari: Read the article, and your description of it is pretty accurate, but if you follow Moore on social media and have seen him on TV since the election, it’s not a stretch to think Moore is angling for Grand Poobah of the Resistance. Anyone is welcome. But if the movement gets co-opted by the likes of Moore, it’s done, IMO.
schrodingers_cat
No. Moore.
Yarrow
@Betty Cracker:
Yep. That’s what I said in my initial comment. The leaders need to come from the resistance itself or it will fail. Anyone is welcome but leadership must come from within.
Steeplejack (phone)
@rikyrah:
I haven’t so far, but I’ve been eyeballing it. Do you recommend it?
The new show that I have found surprisingly good is Bull. I thought the premise sounded lame, but it has worked so far.
bupalos
@jacy: This is excellent.
If we could get some of the Big Idea spirit of Moore’s documentaries infused into a party headed up by a lead from behind personality like Obama, we’d have something there. The party’s biggest problem right now may be that we don’t seem to have much of an agenda, or it’s increasingly defined by Trump. I think we’re in danger of being defined by opposition. We need to start talking now about bigger things.
Roger Moore
@Baud:
I would say that should make him easier: a big fat no. The anti-Trump campaign is necessarily going to be political, but to the extent possible it should avoid explicitly advocating for any party or candidate. Letting that kind of electoral politics into the movement will turn it into the extension of whichever party or candidate gets the reins, and that’s something we desperately want to avoid.
efgoldman
@philadelphialawyer:
Because he knows he’d get embarrassed.
dr. bloor
Only Michael Moore could go months on end bitching about how polarizing HRC was, and then try to seize the Resistance Spotlight without a shred of shame or irony.
Baud
@Alain the site fixer: It’s good for me so far.
Steve in the ATL
@efgoldman: Indeed–if the brother of the lead singer of the Knack got shellacked, what chance would Moore have?
Lyrebird
@Betty Cracker: I recommend the “Eyes on the Prize” documentary series to anyone who hasn’t seen it, especially for discussing leadership of important movements… They went and interviewed lots of the church grannies and grandpas on whose shoulders more visible leaders like MLK Jr stood.
Not at all trying to diminish his own awe-inspiring and action-inspiring contributions, just trying to keep the rest of us from slipping into “magic leader” thinking.
geg6
As someone who has been active in resistance efforts locally, let me just say that no one among my group is in the least bit interested in being “led” and if we change our minds, we especially are not interested in being led by white middle-aged wealthy men. And even more so because they are conspicuously a minority among the group and we’re all had enough of their shit anyway. So, fuck off Michael Moore.
Ruckus
@bupalos:
That baggage is the result of them being good enough that the right wing (and people on the left who have swallowed their bullshit) has lied about them for 30 yrs. Their baggage is that they are democrats. I’m not saying they should lead here but they don’t have to slink away, tails between their legs hiding in shame. Thinking that they have done well by themselves by failing upwards is pure bullshit.
Alain the site fixer
@Baud: phew. As the foundation of Baud!2020, it’s important that the mobile site work well for you!
tobie
It’s become a truism that we lost the white working class in the Obama years but I’m not sure the evidence bears this out at all. A friend told me today that when George Wallace ran for President in 1968 under the banner of the American Independence Party he received 44% of the white working class vote in Wisconsin. He had this information from an American historian who’s been studying past elections and the exit polls conducted at the time.
Think about that….44% of the WWC in WI for a third-party, racist candidate. Seems like the WWC has been a problem for the Democratic Party since the Civil Rights era.
patroclus
I like Michael Moore and I really like his films – they usually crack me up. That part in “Who are we gonna invade next” where he got the prison officials to sing “We Are the World” was hilarious! Sure, he was for Nader in 2000 and he was for Wilmer, but he wasn’t a typical BernieBro and wasn’t mean about it, like so many others. If he’s starting a new website, I expect I’ll check it out and see if it’s any good.
schrodingers_cat
@bupalos:
That’s some weapon’s grade bs, right there.
Elie
We so much want to be past this pain and have our wounds healed. Unfortunately, that is not going to happen in a few easy steps. Our leaders will be many and varied. Some will self appoint for segments but most I believe will emerge — as the tactics and strategic objectives will make themselves clear as events and opportunities reveal themselves. We are impatient to know — but in truth it takes time to understand and for the path to clear.
So few of us have been tested as our parents were in the WWII generation or those fighting Jim Crow or in the Civil War much less the desecration of Indian lands or the internment of the Japanese to name a few. We have rarely known true fear and want in the last 50 years… our sense of sacrifice is shallow and individualistic. Lincoln believed in the Union and was willing to risk all to save it. Those fighting for the Union, also believed enough to suffer massive loss of life and the privations necessary to restore it. This is a continuation of the dilemma of the Civil War — can we truly have a diverse and free people in one nation?
I don’t think that our path to the solution is clear yet. We need to be supportive and caring of each other because our work will be so very hard. I don’t think an election or two is gonna solve this. We will have to grow to the commitment that I believe that we will need because if we knew up front, we might balk. We need to build up our spirits and know that we will have many leaders and be ourselves leaders in many ways.
The Gray Adder
Sort of agree. The noise coming from the red hatters in my office would indicate that they’re ready to label Michael Moore as a leader of the “alt-left,” whatever the fuck that is. We need that like a hole in the head. Better to find a public face who will be seen as a voice of reason. Lord only knows we need more of that.
efgoldman
@Baud:
They don’t need any Dems to confirm Gorsuch. As far as repeal and replace, it appears that the resistance thus far is being led by a half dozen or so Republiklowns, which means if the house actually sends a bill, it can be filibustered, But if Yertle McTurtle wants to pass it badly enough, he can put it through reconciliation – no filibuster, majority vote. I have no doubt he can twist enough arms to get 50 or 51 votes, as he did with some of the cabinet confirmations.
ETA: CBS had a story tonite about noisy town meetings for RWNJ congresscritters. The reporting was it’s almost entirely about ACA repeal.
bemused
@Steve in the ATL:
Pretty much how I imagined they’d script it. I think most Twittler voters went for Trump because they have a deep, undying red hot hatred for liberals. Other reasons, racism, sexism etc are all there too but most of them share the wish for liberals to be in servitude to them.
Ruckus
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Bubba is not going to come roaring back. He’s old enough and his 8 yrs was a tough gig for anyone. His place is elder statesman, one with experience of being there. He did pretty well playing that role in Hillary’s run and at the best should do the same now. OTOH, I think Hillary can lend a good deal to the fight, but as an adviser, not as a leader. Don’t get me wrong I think she is great, but at this point we need fresh blood, we need that resistance first and then a leader. I’m sure that there is an amazing black woman out there who can cause conservative tickers to just explode and I’d love to see that.
geg6
@Baud:
Yeah, let’s slag on Hillary for no apparent reason. I don’t see Hillary or Bill out there claiming any leadership roles but some people just have to preemptively bash them and claim how much everyone hates them, just in case.
And to the slagger (not you, Baud!), the local group I’m working with adore Hillary and she and her treatment by the left and right was one of the motivating factors in getting involved in the first place, the majority for the very first time. My group is overwhelmingly female and/or gay and we still love Hillary and would have her with us on a march in a second. So just stop with your projection on the rest of us.
efgoldman
@Yarrow:
Not just from Fox; directly from the congresscritters and their staffs. Like True Believers of any kind, they can’t understand how anybody can disagree with them. Protesters must be getting paid – why else would they do it?
They have more projection than the mall 16-plex.
jacy
@dr. bloor:
I think that’s exactly the thing that’s sort of bothered me about Moore post-election. Much of what he said was great, but there was this overarching feeling of “I TOLD YOU SO” that I found really off-putting and not at all helpful, even in dissecting where the problems were.
Goku
@efgoldman:
As cautiously optimistic about the Dem’s prospects in 18 and 20 as I am, if Mitch McConnell and the rest push hard enough on this and other issues, and if Trump is found to have concrete ties to Russia, I believe all hell will break lose and there won’t be enough cops in the country to protect them.
Mnemosyne
@Lyrebird:
Seconded. People tend to forget that King helped found the Southern Christian Leadership Conference (SCLC), which brought leaders together all across the country. There was also the SNCC, which as is clear from its name, existed to help coordinate actions by multiple groups.
You need leadership, but not necessarily “a” leader.
zhena gogolia
@Yarrow:
The claim that the protesters were paid. Supposedly Hillary paid the protesters in Moscow.
metacreek
@Baud: I’m so glad you got first comment. I read this and knew that someone needed to point out how he self-promoted and droned on. I’m a lurker here but someone had to say it. He has a place, but he also has a lot of baggage.
efgoldman
@kindness:
And the Ronny and the two Bushes. They ain’t coming back.
@Baud: And double fuck Tweety with two rusty, flaming farm implements.
Fuckem
Mnemosyne
@geg6:
Yeah, I’m not sure why Certain People seem to think that the only possible “leadership” role for Hillary would be for her to run for president again. I can picture a LOT of other leadership roles she could take on — imagine for a moment if she and Valerie Jarret got together to recruit women candidates for office.
VeniceRiley
One of my female FB friends mentioned working for Moore on a film. Her sum up was basically that he was a sexist pig nightmare as bad as our current potus, but with better politics, and she would never, ever work for him again. That’s just what I heard.
To me, that makes him just ever so slightly worse that Senator Sanders.
I’ve also heard awful stories about Bill Mahr from another woman in the biz.
Patricia Kayden
@MoxieM: He’s an excellent film maker and documentarian. I’m really looking forward to him making a film about Trump’s improbable and horrific rise to power and show how the media enabled his win last November. I’ve loved his films so far.
zhena gogolia
I don’t know what this means, but I’m now able to watch Sassy Trump for the first time since the election. Despair, I guess.
skerry
What we are doing is working.
Alain the site fixer
@Goku: I see no cause for optimism. We’re in a dark time and it’s beginning. I cannot see this being so temporary since so many norms are being rewritten daily. That’s the danger of revolutionary thought.
Spanky
@Lapassionara:
Exactly. The leadership will rise out of those who can and do lead.
Mnemosyne
@skerry:
I made a joke on Facebook that Trump was thinking that all us liberals got lost looking for the Starbucks and were accidentally protesting. Nope, turns out that we actually meant to be there!
geg6
@Mnemosyne:
Exactly. She has a lot to give to us and we should take it, just like we should take what Moore has to give if it’s productive. But no one needs or wants a “leader” to parachute in to tell us how we’re doing it all wrong and we should just follow the white, wealthy middle-aged dude who knows best. Fuck that shit.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
They talked for six years about “repeal and replace”, then Trump came along and said the “replacement” would be more and better coverage for less money. One thing Trump has in common with a whole bunch of Ryan’s foot soldiers: None of them ever read Ayn Rand, and don’t give a fuck about “small government”
hovercraft
@bupalos:
See your very first comment bothered me, but I decided to ignore it and give you the benefit of the doubt, but now you’ve gone full on jackass, even adopting bullshit right wing tropes, “leading from behind”, what the fuck are you talking about. Did he lead from behind when he brought us Obamacare? I know that for you fucking morons who apparently don’t do math, the fact that it was not Medicare for all/ single payer means that it was bullshit, the democratic party does not do lockstep, period, we have all kinds from all kinds of states, we understand that compromise is part of life. Getting Dodd-Frank passed was a heavy lift, no Wall Street bankers were dragged out of their offices in chains, but that’s what happens when you allow them to spend millions after some of them did get arrested after the S&L debacle re-writing the laws so that what they did was fucking legal, immoral, but legal. He saved Detroit, with the full weight of the GOP and most of the media and Wall Street against him. I could go on but what’s the point. Obama was not perfect and he could have done things better, but everything he did or tried to do he had to fight a multi front battle to do, the GOP obstructing everything, purity assholes like you demanding perfect solutions that would never pass and the special interests who fought to protect their turf, that’s not including the the fucking media who were looking to gin up and amplify any and all resistance. Fucking Wilmer has been in Washington for how many years and in that time what the fuck has he accomplished? Talk is fucking cheap, just ask Denis Kucinich and Ron Paul who spent years spouting purity and accomplished absolutely nothing. Now fuck off the grown ups are talking.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@geg6: My feeling about Moore is he can’t not piss inside the tent.
geg6
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Well, I tend to agree. He should stick to films. He’s good at that.
efgoldman
@bemused:
Well, yeah, BECAUSE we’re for minority rights, women’s rights, LGBT rights….
Goku
@Alain the site fixer: It’s true things look bad right now, and will likely get worse. But right now the public is on our side. We have to keep it that way and remain vigilant. Nothing lasts forever. Trump isn’t a spring chicken. As long as people die and love survives, freedom will never perish. As long as enough believe in democracy it will never die.
Mnemosyne
@VeniceRiley:
Not a surprise. Hollywood is still riddled with sexist pigs. It was gender as much as race that got Ava DuVernay’s Selma snubbed at the Oscars.
If her version of A Wrinkle In Time is good, don’t be surprised to see her get nominated for All The Things next year, in that well-known Oscars phenomenon of, Oh, shit, we finally got around to watching your last movie and, turns out, it was really good! Who knew?
efgoldman
@skerry:
Of course they are, you shithead. And your crowds are planned out by racist, sexist, Islamaphobic, xenophobic activists.
First fucking true thing I’ve ever heard you say. I know it was an accident.
RM
@tobie: I’m originally from Wisconsin–left twelve years ago and never really looked back–and I can tell you that except maybe in, like, Milwaukee and Madison, the vast majority of white people in Wisconsin are… I’m trying to think of a better word than passively racist, but. It’s kind of true. Like, you’d get stink-eyed for calling someone the N-word, but on the other hand, people’s mental images of racial minorities are pretty damn stereotyped and it’s easy to fall into thinking, say, that all black people live in the ghetto et cetera. Even liberals are prone to this. I was raised pretty damn liberal and I fell prone to that a lot when I was younger. I didn’t really get over it until I ended up in California and actually interacted with PoC on a daily basis.
As far as I can tell, it’s because outside of those two big cities, Wisconsin is hella white. My high school was, like, 90-95% white and most of the people who weren’t were Hmong refugees. It’s even more Christian. There were literally five Jewish kids at my high school, two of which (my sister and I) were from mixed religion families. And I grew up in a small city.
Basically, because nobody’s met any minorities (except Hmong refugees and their descendents), people’s imaginations run wild about them and Fox News just makes things worse.
Starfish
@skerry: Yes, the resistance is planned and organized and not paid. Our Senator who has been MIA is meeting at some event for some local agricultural people. And the resistance is organizing protests outside of the event.
Raven Onthill
Look, any successful political movement has to have organization and leadership — look at what happened to Occupy and the Arab Spring. (My wife tells me that it looks like the same is happening to Pantsuit nation — hope that’s wrong.) The internet has made it more possible to turn people out, but we still have to organize once we are out in the street. We need old-style organizers and organization, if we want to succeed at this.
Kay
Well, we’re doing a get-together March 4th at my house. We put an invitation on some popular local Facebook person’s page and then I sent paper fliers to about 50 people I have on a list, most of whom I’m acquainted with from past efforts. It’s a breakfast. I always include food just because I like to feed people- they’re nicer if you feed them.
Also then you can say “come for breakfast!” instead of “come join our grim, slogging, joyless army” :)
They tell me the Facebook thing is generating some interest. I don’t participate in FB so I haven’t been tracking that part. It’s 90% women so far. I’m not excluding men but this particular event is shaping up to be mostly women.
I’m just going to try to listen and see what they are interested in doing. I find I have less interest in “directing” – I really am open to whatever they come up with. I will start asking people about Sherrod Brown, however, see if they’ll help with his next race. He really is one of my favorites (also a local favorite) and I’m sure they’ll throw as much shit as they possibly can at him so it can’t hurt to start up a little early.
Omnes Omnibus
@RM: Two Jewish girls and one black guy in my graduating class of 240ish. Small city in Central WI.
Omnes Omnibus
@Raven Onthill:
No one is saying that it doesn’t.
Starfish
@Raven Onthill: But the leadership doesn’t have to be national. Having a movement with local leaders that can be connected and who can pass meaningful advice back to the national level is important.
All of this “We don’t want your help because we know X works” is demoralizing. All of this “We know Hispanics don’t vote so we won’t even try” is demoralizing. Let’s try some new things. Let’s keep the things that really work and find new things that also work.
One of the thing Michael Moore was proposing was a resistance calendar. Someone in my community has done that already for a lot of local lefty events. I have her Google Calendar plugged in to mine.
Steve in the ATL
@Omnes Omnibus: we had a black guy at my high school in Memphis!
I think the public schools may have had more.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Starfish: one of the reasons I like Buttigieg for DNC chair is he wants to budget $6m to hire young organizers, to match what the RNC does. Pretty sure he said, on Brian Beutler’s podcast, he wants to pull the money from media spending. Perez to be fair said something similar, less TV, more on-the-ground organizing.
JMG
A good filmmaker and horrendous political leader. Why can’t people remember :shoe maker stick to your last.
rikyrah
@Steeplejack (phone):
I really liked it. I think that it’s a good show to binge, because then you can see the development of the characters. I always try and give time travel a chance. One of the things I like most is that one of the main characters is Black, and he’s like, ‘ there is literally no time in history where being a Black man is a good thing.’ But, he grew a lot over the season. I think all the main characters who are our ‘heroes’ are very likeable.
Aleta
Just watched an animated short on Netflix called World of Tomorrow. I liked it.
ctrader
Most pointless thing I’ve read all day. You have a guy who’s consistently been on the right side of the issues, who has legitimately constructive strategies for resisting Trump, and is out doing something, so you want to start a debate about…what exactly? That he’s not ideologically pure enough to be a leader?
This kind of cooler-than-thou wanking is the worst thing about this blog, along with the passive-aggressive turning up of the nose about other progressives. “I don’t mean to slag on Moore…” but you just did. Exact type of thing Trump does all the time, ironically.
Ruckus
@hovercraft:
I like it when you get excited.
Betty Cracker
@Elie: Well said.
Cogitari Safari
@Betty Cracker:
A couple of things –
First, I don’t follow MM on social media, so if you have something that actually suggests that MM is “angling for Grand Poobah”, please share that instead of this nonsensical WaPo article on the French Resistance with a few sentences on Michael Moore’s new website tossed in for click-bait.
Second, IF (big if), MM is “angling to co-opt” as you claim (proof?/link?), what specifically is the problem with that beyond your fear/apprehension/paranoia over a “celebrity” poobah? If the person (any person) is reasonably competent, has a demonstrated track record of pursuing liberal/Democratic ideals, and has a sincere desire to lead, whyTF not?
I’ve been directly involved with ground-level Democratic politics starting back when I handed out brochures for Albert Brewer’s gubernatorial campaign (Google it) and I can tell you that this tendency of Democrats to purge the impure at the expense of the party as a whole is one of the most self-destructive acts I’ve seen and it continues to be practiced. Sure, “More And Better Democrats” as the saying goes. That’s positive. There’s little to be accomplished by starting to draw lines of disqualification for non-females, non-non-whites, etc. Why not, “let’s see what MM can do (IF he’s interested), and in the mean time, continue to recruit others with real leadership qualities”? What is the harm in that approach?
I will suggest to you, Betty Cracker, that we’ll all do better when we are more inclusive and less exclusive. “Exclusive” is the other party’s domain anyway.
Those are my thoughts that you requested.
Respectfully.
Cogitari Safari
@Elie: #113 – I agree with Betty Cracker on this: Well said.
Omnes Omnibus
@ctrader: Do you think that Moore should be the leader of the Trump resistance movement? I don’t. Nor do I think that BHO, WJC, or HRC should be. The leader/s will come up organically as we the people do the work. Some might be names we already know; others will be new.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@ctrader: boy, are you gonna show us all how it’s done after you fuck off to Moore’s website and join the successful resistance. Will we ever have egg on our faces then.
In the mean time, go ahead and fuck off.
Ruckus
@ctrader:
Except that Moore is not a leader. He lacks at inclusiveness. His whiteness shows and it shouldn’t. He’s great at promoting himself and he’s not bad at making movies. But he is not a good political leader. If you’ve read the thread and don’t understand that, it’s not be the thread or the site that is the problem.
Steve in the ATL
@Omnes Omnibus: concur. Moore, like Hillary, has many wonderful qualities but, like Hillary, is a bugbear for the rightwing noise machine. Obama had little history and therefore little baggage for the RWNM to slime him with, and he won twice, despite being blackity black; Hillary had lots of history and was slimed hard for 30 years, and she lost despite being awesome. There’s a lesson here.
Omnes Omnibus
@Steve in the ATL: Notice that the last sitting senators who got elected president were both in their first terms.
ETA: Also young and charismatic with amazing wives.
ruemara
@VeniceRiley: Heard a lot of not good person stories about Moore, not explicitly sexist. Just bombastic, know it all and a bit of a bully. Unsurprised to hear he’s sexist, but then that seems to be a big issue for a lot of left icon males.
And Mahr is a douche.
@Raven Onthill: Then you definitely don’t want Moore.
Cogitari Safari
@Steve in the ATL: #163
The lesson here is that if you’re going to let the rightwing noise machine pick who can and cannot consider for your leaders based on who they define as the “bugbear” du jour, you might as well hand over whatever thimble-full of intestinal fortitude you have to Sean Hannity for him to flush down the toilet. Holy crap, do you hear yourself? “Oh, dear! Tokyo Rose says that FDR (despite being awesome) is totally bogus so I’ll just drop my weapon and surrender now”. WTF? Moore might be a crappy leader (and I’ve yet to see any evidence he wants to be any sort of “grand poobah” anyway), but why are you letting right-wingers select your leaders for you? They’re going to hang a “Pizzagate” on ANY competent leader that comes out against the GOP (see BHO birth cert, Muslim anti-Christian, hates America, etc., etc.). Don’t let their “stupid” make your decisions for you. Cripes. Pushover.
Cogitari Safari
@Ruckus: #162
A math teacher’s response would be to ask you to “show your work” on that answer.
IOW – WTF does that mean?
MarkK
I want more of Ashley Judd. What a woman!
Still think we would’ve whipped McConnell but we’ll never know…
Tripod
Liberal economics ≠ the narrow interests of the walking dead unions of the industrial age.
Bupalos
@hovercraft: um, yeah, the grown ups…about that….
First, go take your meds, then second go research the term “lead from behind” and rethink your assumptions about it and contemplate what a jerk you sound like just now. Then third start off your next missive to me with an apology which I will gladly accept, because despite your incessant insults and foul mouth, I like your spunk, young fella/lady.
Tripod
@Steve in the ATL:
He is also a midwesterner. His elections masked a Democratic Party decline in the rural\small city midwest.
Ruckus
@Cogitari Safari:
If you don’t understand the point from what I wrote, I doubt that I could explain it to you properly.
But I will try.
Do I need to use small words?
He speaks as a white man of privilege. It comes out in his speaking, it’s offensive and I’m an old white dude.
Simple enough for you? Do I need to dumb it down any further?
wjs
Punching Hippies is really not very constructive.
idontcare
I suffered through reading the “article”. It’s garbage. The headline is pure clickbait. The article is just that Moore has rolled out a protest calendar website that he wants to be successful. Nothing about “wanting to be a leader”. But if it riles people up I guess that’s what passes for journalism these days.
AxelFoley
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: What Jim said.
AxelFoley
@hovercraft: I say DAMN!
Cogitari Safari
@Ruckus: #172 No examples given of said “white man of privilege” speak, but I do now understand that you’re an easily offended old white dude.