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You are here: Home / Politics / An Unexamined Scandal / Schadenfreude Open Thread: Almost Too Much Fun for One Weekend!

Schadenfreude Open Thread: Almost Too Much Fun for One Weekend!

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If we must put up with “Waterbedgate: Second Time, As Farce”, you can’t hardly blame some people for enjoying the spectacle…

Mr. Charles P. Pierce, at Esquire:

… “Unthinkable” is one of those Washington CYA words that does a lot of work until a lot of people start thinking about something seriously. (The president ordered a cover-up of a burglary? The president signed off on sending missiles to Iran? The president was doing the help? Unthinkable!) Let us assume for the moment that, if there’s a shred of truth to what the president* is saying, then the previous occupant of the White House didn’t do it without availing himself of the legal requirements.

If he requested a FISA warrant and got it, then there’s something out there that troubled not only the previous administration, but also some federal judges on a secret court. If that happened, then what President Obama did was not in any way “illegal.” You can argue that it might be improperly political during an presidential election season, but then you get hung up on why Lyndon Johnson didn’t blow the whistle on how Richard Nixon jacked around with the Paris Peace Talks. It’s impossible to conclude in retrospect that the country was well-served by LBJ’s uncharacteristic delicacy in that matter. If this keeps up, the demand for complete transparency is going to become overwhelming…

There is a critical mass building quickly concerning the connections between the president*, his administration, his aides, and the Putin regime. There’s just too much of it right now for the administration to contain. Given that, it probably would have been helpful if the president* hadn’t had another episode on Saturday morning…

Reader Interactions

173Comments

  1. 1.

    Baud

    If Obama was able to obtain a warrant against Trump lawfully, “that would be the biggest scandal since Watergate.”

    Bigger than EMAILS??!!

  3. 3.

    debbie

    @Baud:

    Everything with them is “bigger than Watergate.” More like “just as bad as lying to invade Iraq.”

  5. 5.

    Villago Delenda Est

    Ms. Lindsey, if Obama obtained a warrant on Trump, he was doing something well below his pay grade. Odds are, he never even knew about it.

  8. 8.

    mai naem mobile

    I went on Twitter earlier this AM and there’s a whole lot of Russian bots or real people who really believe Dolt 45. I saw a lot of ‘arrest Obama’ and ‘investigate Obama.’ I don’t know what’s going to have to happen to get his supporters not to believe him.

    I admit I never believed Bill Clinton screwed around with Monica until he admitted it but I would like to believe if there had been this kind of evidence around Clinton on a non personal issue, he would have lost my support. If nothing else just to stop my party’s future losses.

  9. 9.

    JPL

    With Sessions out of the loop, it appears that Trump is trying to find a way to get info.

    But a senior White House official said that Donald F. McGahn II, the president’s chief counsel, was working to secure access to what Mr. McGahn believed to be an order issued by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court authorizing some form of surveillance related to Mr. Trump and his associates.

    NYTimes link

  10. 10.

    Thru the Looking Glass...

    @mai naem mobile:

    I don’t know what’s going to have to happen to get his supporters not to believe him.

    Catching him in bed w/ a dead woman or a live boy?

    Having dinner w/ Hannibal Lecter?

  15. 15.

    Hal

    Wait, so this worked?

    Under the tenets of witchcraft, a “binding spell” does not wish harm on its target, but aims to stop them from doing harm themselves.

    “This is not the equivalent of magically punching a Nazi,” Mr Hughes wrote. “Rather, it is ripping the bullhorn from his hands, smashing his phone so he can’t tweet, tying him up, and throwing him in a dark basement where he can’t hurt anyone.”

    MaryPat Azevedo, who took part in the ritual in Arizona, said she saw the ritual as “a unity prayer”.

    She told the BBC: “A true witch would never cast a spell on anyone without their permission. This prayer is for wellbeing and peace for all beings.”

    Ms Azevedo said she hopes to see “physical, emotional, and spiritual changes in Donald Trump and American politics”.

  17. 17.

    Gravenstone

    @Baud: I’m trying to parse Graham here. Does he mean that it was scandalous if Obama were able to obtain a warrant? Or does he mean Trump’s behavior had to be scandalous in order to justify a warrant? It can truly be read either way.

  18. 18.

    Gravenstone

    @JPL: Interesting conundrum. Can the (putative) subject of a FISA inquiry use the powers of their office to obtain information pertaining to the FISA inquiry?

  23. 23.

    Thru the Looking Glass...

    @Doug R: Actually, I think that is the nub…

    They don’t care about your silly liberal facts… all that matters is that they believe HIM…

  24. 24.

    Wag

    Reposted from an earlier thread.

    I’ve been having the Paul Simon song Boy in the Bubble running through my head for the past few days, and suddenly it came to me. The Trump administration is a nicely and succinctly described as a LAOMABABA.

    A loose affiliation of millionaires and billionaires and babies. I think LAOMABA might be a good rotating tag line

  25. 25.

    Steve in the ATL

    @?BillinGlendaleCA:

    There’s no scandal greater than Hillary’s email server.

    Including, apparently, Mike Pence’s email server, which actually got hacked.

    Fuckers.

  26. 26.

    Millard Filmore

    Over at TPM there is a story about another Russian that has died.

    Today we learned that Oronov apparently organized that ‘peace plan’ meeting that brought together Ukrainian MP Artemenko, Cohen and Felix Sater. About four hours ago Andrii Artemenko, the Ukrainian parliamentarian who came to New York with that ‘peace plan’, went on Facebook to announce that Alex Oronov has died.

    Are there any details floating around about this? Where did he die? How? Is there a BJ thread with this info?

    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/new-development-on-the-michael-cohen-peace-plan-meeting

  29. 29.

    Thru the Looking Glass...

    @JPL:

    From the NY Times article

    His aides declined to clarify on Saturday whether the president’s explosive allegations were based on briefings from intelligence or law enforcement officials — which could mean that Mr. Trump was revealing previously unknown details about the investigation — or on something else, like a news report.

    So… it appears we have two possibilities here…

    If Trump based his claims on info he learned from intel briefings, does that mean Dumbo is now the one leaking classified material?

    Or… is he now going to sources like Breitbart for his intel?

    Either possibility is disturbing…

    And if he is going to Breibart, how long will it be before Bannon starts planting ideas he wants Trump to act on?

  30. 30.

    pk

    @mai naem mo;bile:

    I don’t know what’s going to have to happen to get his supporters not to believe him.

    That’s easy. They would stop believing in him if :

    1) He started talking sense
    2) Ever articulated a policy to help non whites
    3) Ever praised or worked with a democrat
    4) just stopped being an evil fuck

    They voted for him because he is a hate filled vile piece of filth trash, just like themselves.

  32. 32.

    jl

    @Gravenstone: I think he meant that if Obama had illegally tapped Trump’s campaign, that would be bad and he would be worried. If the Obama administration had legally tapped the Trump campaign because there was evidence of illegality, he would be even more worried. I guess I can agree with that.

    Maybe Russian govt, or Russian oligarchs pumped some money to Trump campaign and the feds suspected it? So, there was surveillance. No reason for Obama to know about it or have to approve or order anything in real time. Maybe Trump campaign so woefully disorganized and hapless that they needed cash asap at some point? Not hard to believe. Not hard to believe that it was Trump flunkies and Trump didn’t know, or that Trump knew but he rationalized it was no big deal, or so ignorant he didn’t understand the problems. What lawyers would he consult? Sezhoo, Esq, and who else?

    In a way this is good news. We can blame Obama for everything bad forever from now on. I didn’t know that.
    I forgot about a pomegranate I left in a shopping bag and now it is spoiled. Obama! I saw his face in one of the rotted spots!

  33. 33.

    Mnemosyne

    Well, since other people are re-posting what they said in the other thread:

    We just got back from seeing Fun Home, the musical based on Alison Bechdel’s memoir. We had to wait to leave the theater at the end because I couldn’t stop crying, but in a good (cathartic) way. It was much more about missing your dead father than I expected, so it hit both G and I right in the feels.

  34. 34.

    Another Scott

    @Gravenstone: TheHill has a little more, with an annoying autoplay video, so no linkies for them.

    “I’d be very worried if in fact the Obama administration was able to obtain a warrant lawfully about Trump campaign activity with foreign governments. It’s my job as United States senator to get to the bottom of this.”

    […]

    Graham also said that if Obama legally obtained a warrant, then it would be the biggest political scandal since Watergate during former President Richard Nixon’s administration.

    “The other side of the story … If the former President of the United States was able to obtain a warrant lawfully to monitor Trump’s campaign for violating the law, that would be the biggest scandal since Watergate.”

    Graham faced jeers at the town hall after he said he “mostly” agrees with President Trump’s agenda.

    The ellipsis in the last quote is there in TheHill story.

    He made the remarks in a “town hall” like setting, so he was playing to the crowd. That is probably part of the reason why he seems to be hedging his bets a little.

    FWIW.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  36. 36.

    Emerald

    @Gravenstone:

    Can the (putative) subject of a FISA inquiry use the powers of their office to obtain information pertaining to the FISA inquiry?

    Malcolm Nance answered that this morning on Joy’s show: no. If he’s the target then they don’t have to show it to him, even if he’s the president.

  37. 37.

    SFBayAreaGal

    But, but there are people from the Democratic Party that met with the Russians so both sides says the conservatives.

  38. 38.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Gravenstone: Or does he mean Trump’s behavior had to be scandalous in order to justify a warrant?

    that’s how I took it– if Obama was able to lawfully obtain a warrant, i.e. where there’s smoke there’s fire.

    @Baud: @Gravenstone: Who knows? I’ll take notice when Graham actually does something.

    Yeah, he also said that he’ll support a subpoena (that’s probably the wrong legal term) of Trump’s tax returns as soon as he sees a reason to do so.

  39. 39.

    hilts

    Donald Trump has reached peak batshit crazy and is ready for his straitjacket fitting.

    How much more insane bullshit does Trump have to speak before some Republicans decide he’s too fucking crazy to stay in office and seek to have him declared mentally incompetent and removed from office?

  41. 41.

    Thru the Looking Glass...

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Yeah, he also said that he’ll support a subpoena (that’s probably the wrong legal term) of Trump’s tax returns as soon as he sees a reason to do so.

    When he sees a reason?

    Tell him to open his farkin’ eyes…

  42. 42.

    jl

    @pk: Some of his die hard supporters would desert Trump if he ever managed to get one of his own policies passed and implemented that directly affected them. It would be such a mess and so costly, they couldn’t ignore it.

    But some would just blame Obama and make travel arrangements for the next Trump 2020 campaign rally.

  43. 43.

    sigaba

    @Gravenstone: I think Butters is being intentionally equivocal. Been a lot of that today.

    @hilts:

    How much more insane bullshit does Trump have to speak before some Republicans decide he’s too fucking crazy to stay in office and seek to have him declared mentally incompetent and removed from office?

    He’s not doing himself any favors. I hope we can finally Kill with Fire the bullshit 11-dimensional media manipulation narrative people like to put on Trump. He might be able to change the subject on CNN for twenty seconds but his support in the senate is deteriorating by the hour.

  47. 47.

    Gin & Tonic

    @Millard Filmore: Oronov died two days ago in NYC. He’d lived and worked in the US for about 25 years now, but he was connected by marriage to Cohen – his daughter was married to Cohen’s brother.

    Oronov was 68, so natural causes may be an adequate explanation.

  49. 49.

    jl

    @Gin & Tonic: But there have been a number of people with Russian or Ukrainian connections involved in the murky Trump doings who have died since the election. Seems to be a dangerous time to have any connection to Trumpworld in the Russian diplomatic corps. Oronov makes 5 or 6 people, right?

  51. 51.

    Gelfling 545

    @Hal: My niece participared. She identifies as pagan and yes, I know how that sounds but, as she says, people may find it odd that she worships nature but at least there’s proof it exists.

  52. 52.

    Gin & Tonic

    @jl: I’d hate to be a Russian diplomat shopping for life insurance now, yes.

    But Oronov was a private citizen, more or less.

  53. 53.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Gravenstone: @JPL: This is not really my area, but there are going to be two competing issues going on here. The first is that the President has the authority to declassify anything at anytime. The second is that if the FISA warrant was indeed issued as reported right before the election pursuant to a counterintelligence investigation then everything will be compartmented from anyone who is a subject, and I would think connected to a subject, of the investigation. The White House Counsel, in and of himself, does not have the authority to get access. The President can order him read on, but that may interfere with other parts of national security law surrounding this stuff.

    I’ve never worked counterintelligence, I just know enough to translate for you all. And I’m honest enough to tell you when I don’t have a good answer. I don’t have a good answer. I’d recommend referring to Susan Hennessy’s twitter feed:
    https://twitter.com/Susan_Hennessey?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

    Hennessy recommends Carrie Cordero as THE subject matter expert:
    https://twitter.com/carriecordero

    Richard Painter:
    https://twitter.com/rwpusa?lang=en

    And Norm Eisen are also good as former WH Ethics Counsels:
    https://twitter.com/NormEisen

    They will be far more likely to be able to provide correct answers to your questions.

    You all have fun, I’m gonna go scritch the doggie bellies before I’m pawed to death!

  54. 54.

    jl

    @Gin & Tonic:

    ” But Oronov was a private citizen, more or less. ”

    True. I was just adding up the total. Four or five Russian diplomats and now Oronov.

    But you also have a point. Russians don’t keep themselves particularly healthy, so have to take that into account.

  56. 56.

    Joyce H

    @jl:

    Maybe Russian govt, or Russian oligarchs pumped some money to Trump campaign and the feds suspected it?

    What I got from news reporting (can’t remember where) is that foreign intelligence agencies surveilling Russians associated with Putin discovered them holding meetings in Europe with Trump associates, and I believe passed that on to US intelligence. That would probably be enough for a FISA warrant. Whether the target of the warrant was Trump or others (Manafort?) is of course unclear. (Remember, Manafort lives in Trump Tower.)

    Also, found this on Twitter – “Sci-fi where the president has lost his mind and everyone knows because his private thoughts keep appearing on little slabs in their pockets”

  59. 59.

    JPL

    @jl: Josh at TPM said he’s connected to Trump’s business lawyer, Cohen. The one who delivered the peace plan giving Eastern Ukraine to Russia. Cohen is probably sleeping tight tonight.

  60. 60.

    Adam L Silverman

    @jl: 6. Orsonov, if it were to all be connected, would make 7. Also, a second failed attempt at poisoning a Russian opposition reporter.

  61. 61.

    Mike J

    @Hal:

    Under the tenets of witchcraft, a “binding spell” does not wish harm on its target

    If Hecate can’t do it, get me Moses on the phone.

  62. 62.

    Gin & Tonic

    @jl: I’m still at a loss with that Cohen ‘peace plan’ thing. Cohen and his brother were bit players who tried and may not have succeeded in the ethanol business with Oronov. Oronov was small-scale, too, as Ukrainian businessmen go. The MP involved, Artemenko, was a nobody, nominally representing a Ukrainian-nationalist party. He may have been acting on instructions, but why somebody important would pick him escapes me. There’s just a real low-rent vibe about the whole thing that makes no sense.

  68. 68.

    Shana

    @Mnemosyne: A fabulous show. Hubby actually liked it better than Hamilton, although I strongly disagree. Although I did like it a lot. A lot. Just not Hamilton category like.

  71. 71.

    rikyrah

    Yashar‏Verified account @yashar

    Corey Lewandowski just said on Fox that the Obama admin was listening in on Sessions meeting with Russian Ambassador in his Senate Office.

  72. 72.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Yashar‏Verified account
    @ yashar
    Corey Lewandowski just said on Fox that the Obama admin was listening in on Sessions meeting with Russian Ambassador in his Senate Office.

    So I guess they’re raising the crazy in the accusations cause the know their base will swallow, believe and repeat everything they say, and they’re confident that Republicans will never nut up enough to really investigate

  73. 73.

    Thru the Looking Glass...

    @jl:

    Oronov makes 5 or 6 people, right?

    Yup…

    Russia’s Ambassador to the United Nations, Vitaly Churkin…

    Sergei Krivov, was also said to have died of a heart attack despite his skull having been bashed in…

    Oleg Erovinkin, a former KGB General who had helped a former MI6 agent to assemble the dossier, turned up dead in the back of a car in Russia… suspected of being one of the sources for the dossier compiled by Steele…

    Sergei Mikhailov, who was believed to have been a U.S. intelligence asset within the Russian government, was dragged out of a meeting in Russia with a bag over his head and is now almost certainly dead as well…

    Plus these three:

    Russian diplomat Andrey Malanin, found dead in his Athens apartment… Russian Ambassador to Turkey, Andrey Karlov, being murdered on live television… and Russian diplomat Petr Polshikov was found shot to death in Moscow.

    That adds up to seven bodies now having dropped since the Trump-Russia scandal exploded.

    Not sure how all of them are related but some of them most definitely are…

    And now Oronov…

    I’m waiting for one of the Americans involved to turn up dead under mysterious circumstances…

  75. 75.

    jl

    @Gin & Tonic: Maybe the whole thing started with grifters in the Trump Russian oligarch and wanna-be oligarch real estate funding circles, and Putin told the Russian government to take a flyer on the deal and help out a little. See what happened…That would explain a lot of the shambling low-rent aspect to it.

  76. 76.

    Steve in the ATL

    @JPL:

    “If you just say ‘Ossoff,’ some folks are gonna think, ‘Is he Muslim?”

    Yeah, fuck your mayor! Though mine isn’t any better.

    Can’t wait to vote for Ossoff myself!

  77. 77.

    max

    @mai naem mobile: I would like to believe if there had been this kind of evidence around Clinton on a non personal issue

    I have always been immune to Bill Clinton’s supposed charms but God Almighty, there’s no comparing him to Trump. Which is why it’s on him (Bill) for hanging around the SOB. At any rate, it doesn’t matter. Trump’s basically been dancing around the 40% fault line, and he has no room to maneuver.

    Queen Anne: you can’t hardly blame some people for enjoying the spectacle…

    BAHAHAHAHA. HAHAHAHAHA.

    Ahem.

    max
    [‘He’s walked the whole lot of them right into the bag. So this is going well.’]

  78. 78.

    rikyrah

    Adam Khan‏ @Khanoisseur

    Oh look, Trump just sold a $14.3M condo for $15.8M to a lobbyist for China

    Remember, overpaying for real estate masks buying influence…

  79. 79.

    JPL

    @Major Major Major Major: Cecily Strong on SNL awhile back said
    “Mr. President, you’re doing too much, I want one day without a CNN alert that scares the hell out of me, all right?” The picture of your cat reminded me of that.

  80. 80.

    SFAW

    @jl:

    Seems to be a dangerous time to have any connection to Trumpworld in the Russian diplomatic corps. Oronov makes 5 or 6 people, right?

    Was any of them near a grassy knoll?

  81. 81.

    rikyrah

    Laurence Tribe‏Verified account @tribelaw

    Trump adviser Carter Page changes story, now says Trump, despite denial, ordered Ukraine change at RNC after Sessions met w Kislyak there!

  85. 85.

    amk

    All this kabuki is preparing the grounds for tainted evidence plea for an impeachment that is not gonna happen?

  87. 87.

    Adam L Silverman

    @rikyrah: @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Lewandowski’s not very smart. These people all have a movie understanding of how the Executive Branch works. They’ve spent so long consuming their own stash, they have all completely forgot basic civics. There’s a reason the DOJ, while being an Executive Branch agency, is walled off by law from the President and the Executive Office of the White House in regard to criminal investigations and prosecutions. It is to prevent a replay of the Nixon Administration. In addition to that the judicial oversight bar to get over in order to get a warrant for electronic and signals surveillance and collection of a US Senator’s office is about 100 stories. Unless they could show a judge, with almost no ambiguity or uncertainty that Senator Sessions was either engaged in criminal activity or an agent of a foreign power, there is no way, shape, or form that they would have gotten a warrant for either criminal or FISA surveillance.

    Now given that it has been reported that then Senator Sessions had a phone conversation with Ambassador Kislyak and we have a standing collection for Ambassador Kislyak’s communications, then it is possible we have a transcript of that call collected through SIGINT. However, unless a FISA warrant was issued for Senator Sessions, or he’s covered under one issued for a number of individuals, that transcript is sequestered and non accessible under the existing laws, regulations, and policies. My educated guess is that the reason that AG Sessions remarks at the presser were gobbledegook is that he can’t recall exactly what he said on that call and he’s not going to state anything that could eventually get him in trouble if that transcript were accessed. Or if another country’s Intel Community, including Russia’s, decided to release their version. As a number of our allies are also actively collecting on Ambassador Kislyak, because this is what everyone does, and Russia is also collecting on who he talks to. So the Russians almost certainly have their own transcript of that call.

  88. 88.

    Jeffro

    @rikyrah: Carter Page is going to be the first to roll over on Trumpov & Co this coming week…he is not someone who deals well with pressure/exposure (as we all saw on the Chris Hayes segment)

    He’ll be the first, and then my guess is Stone and Cohen.

  92. 92.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    remember when we used to joke about how Christie would wind up a greeter at a Trump c*sin0 after Jeb/Rubio/Cruz won the nomination and Hillary was in the White House

    NEW: Jeff Sessions greets guests at Trump’s Mar-a-Lago Club
    Embattled Attorney General Jeff Sessions took a few moments from high-level meetings at President Donald Trump’s Mar-a-Lago Club to greet guests at the estate tonight.
    The Bascom Palmer Eye Institute is having its Evening of Vision Gala at Mar-a-Lago tonight — and it just so happens the president is in town for the weekend.

  97. 97.

    Chet Murthy

    @rikyrah: It’s time for a Trump Crony Dead Pool, isn’t it? First American Trump crony who ends up dead. I’m pickin’ Carter Page.

  98. 98.

    Anonymous At Work

    Sens. Sasse and Graham have lain down markers and they should be called out on them repeatedly to follow up with actual votes. If either one flipped on a Committee vote, that Committee could subpoena Trump’s tax returns and other assorted documents. Keep the pressure on them to keep their word. Publicly.

  102. 102.

    Jeffro

    Side note: upon landing at National today and checking news/seeing Twitler’s various Obama-rants, I asked RWNJ dad and bro if they were prepared for an even worse week ahead, possibly THE week when it all comes out…

    Bro: (crickets)

    Dad: “Well, I think that both sides need to shut up until some actual facts are established…the coolest heads will prevail…it could well be that there are connections and we need to take a look at it…I’m tired of the way this stuff drips out…”

    Seriously. Because that’s exactly how he dealt with Benghazi (NOT).

  105. 105.

    billcoop4

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Probably time to start bringing down Balmy Eye Institutes and other entities which use properties which have the T work on them. I don’t care if they’re medical. They’re in it. Bring them down.

  106. 106.

    p.a.

    So glad I live in the world’s longest functioning, stable democracy. Looks like it’s back to Benadryl for a full night’s sleep for a while. Which Fed prison would a President be sent to?

  107. 107.

    Steve in the ATL

    @JPL: Is Roswell more progressive these days? I feel like Johns Creek is the reddest part of metro Atlanta. I have neighbors who actually want the government to kill all Muslims. They love Trump. They think Democrats are the devil. And JC is supposedly a nice area. Very frustrating.

  108. 108.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @p.a.: You live in Switzerland?

    Don’t be so gloomy. After all it’s not that awful. Like the fella says, in Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love – they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. So long Holly.

  113. 113.

    rikyrah

    Eat, Drink & Be Mary‏ @MWJ1231
    Thread……
    Victoria Brownworth‏ @VABVOX
    I’m the reporter who outed #RoyCohn before he died of #AIDS.
    He was a monster.
    Trump was his protégé.
    Monsters beget monsters.
    #McCarthyism

  116. 116.

    Another Scott

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: :-/

    Seriously, Trump is selling access to himself and his cabinet for his personal benefit (he owns and sells-out his Xanadu in Florida). He’s trashing the federal government and making a laughing stock of Constitutional officers of the United States.

    Who is finally going to draw up the articles of impeachment? ProPublica.

    But unless Trump sells or gives his business to his children before taking office the Emoluments Clause would almost certainly be violated. Even if he does sell or give it away, any retained residual interest, or any sale payout based on the company’s results, would still give him a stake in its fortunes, again fairly clearly violating the Constitution.

    The Emoluments Clause bars U.S. officials, including the president, from receiving payments from foreign governments or foreign government entities unless the payments are specifically approved by Congress. As ProPublica and others have detailed, Trump’s business has ties with foreign government entities ranging from loans and leases with the Bank of China to what appear to be tax-supported hotel deals in India and elsewhere. The full extent of such ties remains unknown, and Trump has refused to disclose them, or to make public his tax returns, through which many such deals, if they exist, would be revealed. Foreign government investments in Trump entities would also be covered by the clause, as would foreign government officials paying to stay in Trump hotels, so long as Trump stands to share in the revenues.

    One misconception about the Emoluments Clause in early press coverage of it in the wake of Trump’s election is being clarified as scholars look more closely at the provision’s history. That was the suggestion that it would not be a violation for the Trump Organization to conduct business with foreign government entities if “fair market value” was received by the governments.

    This view had been attributed to Professor Richard Painter, a former official of the George W. Bush administration, and privately by some others. But Professor Laurence Tribe, the author of the leading treatise on constitutional law, and others said the Emoluments Clause was more sweeping, and mandated a ban on such dealings without congressional approval. Painter now largely agrees, telling ProPublica that no fair market value test would apply to the sale of services (specifically including hotel rooms), and such a test would apply only to the sale of goods. The Trump Organization mostly sells services, such as hotel stays, golf memberships, branding deals and management services.

    This is infuriating.

    Sessions is a monster, but Trump having him go out like a carnival monkey is disgusting. (And even if Donnie didn’t tell him to do it, and him deciding to do it on his own doesn’t change the fact that it directly benefits Donnie financially.)

    Grr.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  118. 118.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Jeffro: I’m tired of the way this stuff drips out…”

    Drips out? Trump peed in a bucket probably since after his speech and then splashed it all over the internet.

    Obama went for a Starbucks

  119. 119.

    hellslittlestangel

    How does this sound: “When I said I’d let him take Crimea and the Baltics if he helped me win the election, that was just locker room talk.”

  121. 121.

    Thru the Looking Glass...

    @Chet Murthy:

    It’s time for a Trump Crony Dead Pool, isn’t it?

    That’s what I’m waiting for… 1st one who turns up dead, the others will be fighting to sell everyone else out as fast as they can…

    I wonder if that’s why J.D. Gordon came out and said Trump was the one who had the changes made to the RNC stance on Ukraine? Getting out while the getting’s good?

  123. 123.

    p.a.

    @Omnes Omnibus: You know, Switzerland is so stable and so boring and so seldom newsworthy (money laundering, despot banking aside) I have no idea its form of gvt. I know it’s a democracy, know it’s not a constitutional monarchy, but I have to Wiki to find out if it’s Parliamentary, Presidential/mixed etc… All I know is ‘cantons’, 4 languages, Alpine sports.

  126. 126.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    We don’t need an investigation of foreign meddling into our election about which evidence has been building for almost a year, we need to investigate a tweet tantrum from a narcissist who may also be suffering from an as-yet undiagnosed form of dementia

    Hercules Mulligan‏
    @ johnvmoore
    .@ hughhewitt tells @ SheinelleJones that he wants a special prosecutor to look into @ BarackObama. HE DID IT THREE TIMES.

    MSNBC pays this man money to talk about politics, and it’s been a long time since I saw him share the screen with any counterweight ( I suspect he made one-on-one a condition of his contract–no evidence, just a hunch).

  127. 127.

    Jeffro

    @amk: He’s just unable to process that he is wrong, was wrong, has been wrong, has been duped, bought into Hillz = History’s Greatest Monster, and so on.

    He’d most certainly like for this meddlesome priest of a problem to go away and quit causing him all this cognitive dissonance, I’m sure. I’m actually grateful…for most Trump supporters, there will be no cognitive dissonance (other than the decision to, or not to, take up arms against this ‘silent coup’ by us libs)

  129. 129.

    rikyrah

    found at TOD:

    WhatIsWorking

    Good Saturday to you all

    I wanted to ask for your help. While we all chase the Russia Story, Republicans are planning on repealing the ACA without a budget score, and without showing it to anyone until it is on the floor.

    STRATEGY FOR AREAS with a R SENATOR or CONGRESSPERSON

    Get on the phone and leave a message with their local office today and EVERDAY until we win this thing.

    Tell them – NO SECRET BILL, let us publicly debate what it will cost in $$ and in human suffering.

    Show up at their local offices, be brave and be strong.

    Then call 10 people you know and ask them to do the same thing

    STRATEGY FOR BLUE DISTRICTS

    Join a Virtual bank from home (where you use a tablet or computer to access names, phone # and a script) and call into TN, AZ, Maine, NV or AK.

    Send me a note if you need links to make these calls. Everyone needs to do this

    Here is our latest update on the Republican plan

    REPUBLICAN PLAN TO RUSH THRU ACA REPEAL

    There will be a bill released on Monday that will then go to markup in both Ways and Means and E&C on Wednesday/Thursday. It will more or less be what we saw in the earlier draft, with a few modifications for the worse. It will not be scored and there will probably not be amendments.

    Presuming passage, it will go to the Budget Committee the following week and then to Rules on 3/20 or earlier–with the goal to have it to the Floor of the House on 3/23, which is the 7th anniversary of the passage of the ACA.

    McConnell has committed to put the bill on the floor immediately, with no changes, following a Bryd bath, meaning it will be voted on before the Easter recess (4/7).

    This is far more accelerated timeline than any of us were thinking, and we were assuming we would have process in the Senate (meaning it would go through Senate Committees however that is not the plan). We need to get as much done in the next 2 1/2 weeks as possible.

    Thank you in advance for your help with this issue

    ****

  130. 130.

    Bill E Pilgrim

    @p.a.: Women didn’t have the right to vote there until the 1970s. The last canton didn’t give the right until 1991.

    That’s my fun fact about CH, which I never knew until I worked there one year and my Swiss colleagues told me.

  132. 132.

    Jeffro

    @Thru the Looking Glass…:

    I wonder if that’s why J.D. Gordon came out and said Trump was the one who had the changes made to the RNC stance on Ukraine? Getting out while the getting’s good?

    See, this is the thing that is irritating, THAT ONE PART ALONE would get any Democrat crucified, and would have gotten HRC drawn and quartered. A hostile foreign power (HFP) agrees to help you get elected (via hacking and selective leaking, no less), if you’ll just weaken your own party’s platform so that they no longer care about HFP’s aggression/annexation of a neighboring state?

    I mean, can you imagine if HRC had cut this deal with China to both hack the RNC, weaken its candidate, and look the other way while China annexed Laos or Vietnam or something?

  136. 136.

    JPL

    @rikyrah: This is from Maggie Haberman on twitter
    Trump is expecting two major policy rollouts this week – one on Obamacare and one on the new travel E.O.

  137. 137.

    rikyrah

    Tommy Christopher‏Verified account @tommyxtopher

    Stonewalling oversight: ICE won’t meet with Congressional Hispanic Caucus

  138. 138.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Josh Marshall‏Verified account @ joshtpm
    I’ve followed Hugh for years, used to go on his radio show yrs ago, amazingly dishonest, disingenuous commentator. Party uber alles, bigly.

  139. 139.

    Thru the Looking Glass...

    @Jeffro:

    See, this is the thing that is irritating, THAT ONE PART ALONE would get any Democrat crucified, and would have gotten HRC drawn and quartered.

    Yup… I kinda think that little bit of news dropped just as everyone was fixated on Sessions and didn’t really pay much attention to it… I’m thinking sometime in the next week or so, someone will get this funny look on their face and say, “Waitaminite… what did he say?”

    But yes… they wanted to impeach Obama for not wearing a flag pin (snark)…

    But this?

    ***crickets***

  140. 140.

    pk

    @Chet Murthy:

    I’m pickin’ Carter Page.

    Definitely. He’s the weakest link. I saw his interview with Anderson Cooper. Completely clueless and totally without an instinct of self preservation. He can’t handle an interview with a mediocre journalist and I can see him breaking down completely with the FBI. He’ll take everyone down with him. I’m sure Putin considers him Polonium worthy.

  141. 141.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    Rob Crilly‏Verified account
    @ robcrilly
    Tony Blair’s secret White House meeting as he pushes to become Jared Kushner’s Middle East adviser

    Richard M. Nixon‏ @ dick_nixon 4m4 minutes ago
    Do you ever think about death?

    My God, there must be seven or eight ways to get us all killed contained in that.

    And think of Blair — abomination as he is, he held high office for a long time — going hat in hand to a little bastard like Kushner.

  145. 145.

    hilts

    @p.a.:

    Which Fed prison would a President be sent to?

    Trump might be declared mentally incompetent before a criminal case can be built, so I’m betting he gets sent to St Elizabeth’s Hospital.

  146. 146.

    efgoldman

    @Anonymous At Work:

    If either one flipped on a Committee vote, that Committee could subpoena Trump’s tax returns and other assorted documents.

    Never happen. Sasse would like to convince people he has principles, because he sees himself as a future president (but who doesn’t, in the senate). But if he really showed any, the never forgive/never forget mouth breather flying monkey primary voting base would nuke him from orbit.
    Little Lindsay’s principle, like his buddies Grandpa Walnuts and Suzie Q Collins, is to talk a good game, take a free vote against the party when it’s available, and otherwise toe the party line.

  147. 147.

    JWR

    @Chet Murthy:

    I’m pickin’ Carter Page.

    Yeah, Prolly. I saw an interview with him and Judy Woodruff, (I know… gag me!), last month, and she couldn’t get anything approaching a straight answer out of him, so it’s funny to see him now, only 3 weeks later, beginning to spill the beans..

  150. 150.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    @Gravenstone:

    Does he mean that it was scandalous if Obama were able to obtain a warrant?

    That’s how I am taking it, but it’s batshit insane conservatard thinking that’s is a scandal following the law.

  151. 151.

    Another Scott

    @hilts: St. Elizabeth’s campus is the new home of DHS. I’d be very surprised if an insane Trump were sent there – it’s seemingly being slowly phased out as a psychiatric facility, and it seems to be a DC (rather than a federal) facility now. His kids would no doubt argue for house arrest in his gold-plated dump in NYC or Xanadu, if it came to that.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  153. 153.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    @Thru the Looking Glass…: ,

    how long will it be before Bannon starts planting ideas he wants Trump to act on?

    How long before Trump instructs the US Air Force to shoot down UFOs to stop them sticking probes up our butts as we sleep? That’s really were Trump’s mind is now.

  154. 154.

    Viva BrisVegas

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    In Switzerland they had brotherly love – they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.

    Harry Lime was so full of crap.

    In Switzerland, 500 years of democracy and peace produced (among others), Le Corbusier, Bernays, The Bernoullis, Euler, Rousseau, Jung, Agassiz, Paracelcus, Dirac, and last but not least Einstein.

  155. 155.

    J R in WV

    @Jeffro:

    Where did you come into National from? I dint even know you were away!

    I call it National too, or Washington National. Naming an airport already named for a president for Raygun is too much stupid. I will never in the rest of my life call it Reagan in any way shape or form. If the airline folks can’t deal with National or Washington National, then fuq it, I can fly out of BWI or rent a car.

  158. 158.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    @jl:

    Maybe Russian govt, or Russian oligarchs pumped some money to Trump campaign and the feds suspected it?

    Trump been taking Russian loans for years now and in Russia a successful businessman by definition is a criminal, one of the legacys of Communism.

  159. 159.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Actually he was on with a group on Tuesday night and Rachel Maddow parked his pasty, flabby tuchas in the cheap seats when he tried to spin the President’s remarks avoiding responsibility for the botched Yemen raid by placing the blame on the other members of SeAL Team 6.

  160. 160.

    efgoldman

    @J R in WV:

    I call it National too, or Washington National.

    When I get a cab at my daughter’s place in Arlington, and I say “National”, there’s never a question where I want to go.

  163. 163.

    Barbara

    @efgoldman: Quite some time ago now I received a free upgrade to first class when I was trying to get an earlier flight, just because I made the lady at the counter happy by referring to it as National. Now I usually just say DCA.

  165. 165.

    Steve in the ATL

    @Viva BrisVegas:

    In Switzerland, 500 years of democracy and peace produced (among others), Le Corbusier, Bernays, The Bernoullis, Euler, Rousseau, Jung, Agassiz, Paracelcus, Dirac, and last but not least Einstein.

    And Alain the Site Fixer!

  167. 167.

    Adam L Silverman

    @Omnes Omnibus: Good, will be going back to the belly scritching in just a few. I decided to have some ice cream, so I figured I’d see if anything else strange had happened over the past hour.

  170. 170.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    @Thru the Looking Glass…:

    Don’t you mean ‘sticking them up HIS butt while he sleeps?’

    Point taken, but I think Trump feels if his ass is violated by little gray aliens, then all of Real American asses are violated too.

  172. 172.

    dww44

    @rikyrah: As I want to share and post these recommended actions to put pressure on the Congress to be open and transparent and to honestly debate the defunding and replacement of the ACA, can you (or any other commenter) tell me what TOD is ?

  173. 173.

    grandpa john

    @JPL: @Doug R: Classic deflection, Change the topic of the ADD media from Russia . Look ! Over there! what’s Obama doing, and our spineless media will jump on the bandwagon.

Comments are closed.