Jamelle Bouie asks:
will this disastrous health care rollout finally kill the myth of Noble Wonk King Paul Ryan?
— Jamelle Bouie (@jbouie) March 7, 2017
The answer of course is “no”. Like conservatism itself, Paul Ryan can never fail, he can only be failed.
David Brooks may take a few days off, but he’ll be back to masturbating of pictures of Paul’s pecs by the weekend.
I think I threw up a little in my mouth at the mention of Brooks’ masturbating to anything. Actually, I threw up a lot in my mouth.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
It’s not unlike Peak Wingnut: will never be achieved.
I know it’s early, but I’m curious who will play the role of spoiler in the 2020 presidential contest? Jill Stein again? Or will they just nominate Susan Sarandon? Or is there someone new waiting in the wings; a young understudy like Anne Baxter (Eve Harrington)?
@SenyorDave: My jaw dropped and so I projectile vomited on the floor. The cat is now walking away backwards.
I’m thinking we will see a deBoer/Sarandon ticket.
I think we should take a minute and appreciate the great sport of rugby and this wonderful video that explains how that sport came about in a moving tribute to its origins.
We’ll call it rucking
@Doug!: And did wiki do some sort of dump today/yesterday? I’m sure they’ll be working overtime for the next presidential dust-up.
@SenyorDave: Brooks only wishes he could masturbate. Nothing to work with there.
As long as “noble wonkery” trumps what amounts to mass murder by fountain pen with our media, nothing will ever change.
And somewhere…Orange Julius is laughing after his mid-morning scotch.
Gin & Tonic
@Doug!: And to think we chased little Freddie away.
West of the Rockies (been a while)
A Steve King is just plain, old mean and stupid. But Ryan has that faux sincere fake smile. He’s not unintelligent. He’s just utterly uncompassionate and focused on his own benefit and aggrandizement.
Unless he gets in Putin’s way, then he’ll be a failure AND a corpse.
West of the Rockies (been a while)
He was such an insufferable, smug person. Why say something clearly in ten words when you can use seventy?
comrade scotts agenda of rage
@West of the Rockies (been a while):
Which makes him like 95% of the Modern GOP, the other 5% (and I’m probably under estimating here) being the truly ignorant, batshit crazy ones like King, Bachmann, etc.
The GOP plan is like everything else in this stupid administration: an act of disruption. Trump hates it, Trump loves it. The Republicans will pass it on to the Senate and the Senate votes will fall through, or the Republicans in the Senate will fall in line to pass it. It’s just like Obamacare, it’s a departure from Obamacare. This is infuriating and impossible to keep up with,
I am ready to throw my iPad out the window and stuff cotton into my ears for the near future.
@germy: The dog, however, is interested . . .
If anyone is calling their Senators, this article might be useful. It’s from four days ago prior to the actual bill being released, but it talks about how the Senators weren’t allowed to see the bill and how Cruz is
Also this is good info:
FreedomWorks wants results. They’re putting pressure on their bought and paid for Senators. Anyone who has one of these guys as their Senator can pressure them from this side of things.
@West of the Rockies (been a while): Cole pays by the word.
I’m either really pessimistic, or too shell-shocked from November to recognize good news when I see it, but I don’t get what is supposed to be so “disastrous” about this roll-out. Only if you take everything said by Republicans and their masters at face value can this be seen as a calamity for them. If you consider the very real possibility that what is being thrown around is a smoke screen to get the media to begin the “nobody likes it, must be good” pronouncements, this makes more sense. What doesn’t make sense is that Ryan would roll something out that really ticks off Republicans. He does not possess that level of courage.
What is Julius up to?
Timing is everything with them.
Maybe Mr. Brooks will stay faithful, but Jen Rubin has had enough.
@Yarrow: Jesus fucking Christ on a donkey. Do the Kocks have a Solent green factory ready to go live or something?
Assumes facts not in evidence (thank god): Brooksie couldn’t find his own equipment with a magnifying glass.
I think that the restaurant chain depicted in Neo-Seoul 2144 in CLOUD ATLAS is a Koch subsidiary, actually…
@MJS: I think it’s possible that this is good news. Health care is so unbelievably fucked up that there are only one or two paths to even stabilizing it, much less fixing it. And since the Republicans are so unmoored from reality, each wing of the Party can idealize their own fantasy solution, without reference to any, you know, facts. So how do they actually come together on a solution? It will be on some grudgingly agreed upon fantasy, that will instantly crater on the numbers. Over and over again.
I’m so sick of this. The idea that people who “know” Sessions “know” he’s ethical so we all have to go along is offensive.
I don’t “know” him and I shouldn’t have to. He should be judged by his actions. His actions so far are as follows:
At the job interview, he misled Franken. He then took the job and immediately, first thing. moved to push back civil rights. I don’t care if they “know” him. It doesn’t matter. These assertions made on the basis of personal relationships are really the ultimate in elitism.
It’s this bullshit that’s everywhere now. KellyAnne Conway and “what’s in Trump’s heart”.
The only reason people say things like this is that the person’s public actions are terrible so they have to retreat to “I know him”. Forget that. What they DO. That’s the measure.
@West of the Rockies (been a while): How can you resist using those extra sixty words to remind your readers that they’re simpletons who can’t possibly appreciate your genius?
@MattF: hey, at least she’s being honest about it…
Now look back and consider the things Jen Rubin has seen in her lifetime. Short of W’s Mesopotamian adventure, I’d say she’s about right…
@MJS: He’s, well, not that smart. It was his bright idea to invite Obama to the House Republican caucus in ’09, where of course he ate their lunch. Joe Biden wiped the floor with him in a debate. He waffled on supporting Trump, so Bannon hates him. He could totally have screwed this up. In fairness, it’s an unsolvable problem. Too many right wingers want total repeal or nothing. Too many just plain conservative Senators don’t want to mess with Medicaid. Can’t square that circle.
@Kay: Amen. Such a tell. I know OJ Simpson. He loved Nicole….
The Beltway Courtiers will never stop calling Ryan a serious, hard truth telling, policy wonk because they are the ones who wrote the myth in the first place. The 21st century GOP does rhetoric not policy. So they don’t really have wonks because they would have waste time and effort getting them to shut up and stop using numbers and stuff.
But the Beltway Courtiers have to pretend that the emperor’s clothes are very stylish and that the Republicans are offering reasonable solutions to America’s problems, so the invented Ryan the serious, hard truth telling, policy wonk. It is possible that they could write another myth about another soon-to-be famous Republican, but for now, Ryan will do just fine.
@Kay: One also has to wonder exactly what Sessions’ supporters mean by ‘ethical’.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
Probably not because I read somewhere that the long term plan was to pave our roads with the corpses of the poors. Of course given how things are heading back to 1880, there might be enough growth in The Poors demographic to pave the roads with their corpses *and* make a nutritional dietary supplement.
We might as well call all Republican legislators, Representatives and Senators Death. I just read at Raw Story that Missouri Senator Rob Schaaf has led filibusters against any prescrip med monitoring. Schaaf believes that when people who die from overdoses “it removes them from the gene pool”.
I think if they could get away with it, they’d actually institute firing squads.
Paul Ryan is the medias newest pet project, remember all the fluffing they did for W when he ran against Gore, he was a straight talking down to earth, good old boy, who happened to be the scion of an old venerated political family, and Ivy leaguer who wasn’t stuffy , just the perfect president, and then as he proved himself to be an inept asshole being led around by Cheney and Rummy, they tried for years to prop him up, it took Katrina and Iraq spiraling out of control for them to finally cry uncle. The veneration of Ryan has been going on for years, with no other viable figure to elevate as the intellectual head of the party, after all it would be awkward to name Charles and David as the heads even thought they are. The fact that two months into total control, they have nothing to show for it, has to be glossed over, HE IS THE ONE, DAMMIT!
Ryand and Twitler are both falling far short of what their democratic predecessors were able to accomplish in their first weeks at the helm.
The media didn’t like Twitler to begin with, but look how far they are going to try to make him seem normal. Ryan is their golden boy they will do everything in their power to help him succeed, they’ve invested too much time and effort into him, he will not fail!!
@MJS: Take a glance at Memeorandum and you’ll see things like:
“Republican Obamacare plan signals that liberalism has already won”
They’re getting a lot of push-back from the commentariat.
Ryan isn’t some genius that always knows what the House GOP wants and always gets his way. He is, as Krugman regularly points out, a fraud. And passing something that was sure to be vetoed or never make it through the Senate was easy for him. Now, Teabaggers in the House and Senate know that things they vote for may actually become law, so they have to be much more careful – and they hate it. They can’t pass things like Steve King’s HR-132 – his one-page Obamacare repeal bill.
It’s going to be interesting for them the next few months. Here’s hoping we can take advantage of all the pain they’re going through…
@bemused: E.g., actual death panels. I know it’s a cliche around here, but… projection, anyone?
BTW, if you hear conversations about a border adjustment tax from Republicans, don’t dismiss it outright. It’s not a terrible idea. It’s a one-sided VAT that disincentivizes offshoring profits. It may or may not help with jobs (won’t hurt, at least) and may increase consumer prices somewhat until currency catches up. But it’s also a big toe in the water for a broader VAT in the sense that once you’ve set up the frameworks for calculating and paying a VAT in this narrow sense, moving to a broader one is a lot easier.
The main benefit to a VAT is that it’s a tax on value-add, not on labor specifically, which means that it taxes automated value-add. That may slow the pace of automation, but probably won’t. But it does provide a way to extract tax revenue from non-labor which at least could be funneled into safety net programs.
@MJS: No, this is fucked up. No one wants to vote for it except perhaps tax uber alles Republicans who are in districts where they don’t have to worry about primary or general election opponents.
The ads are cutting themselves and if this goes through 218-217 and 51-50 or 52-48 everyone will know exactly who is responsible for throwing them off of their insurance.
@? Martin: It has the advantage of blowing up the WTO, so Donnie could get to do more yooge bi-lateral trade deals, also too, amirite?
It’s not a good idea, IMHO, and I assume it’s not actually going to go anywhere (but I haven’t checked carefully)..
@West of the Rockies (been a while): He’s a true believer in free market unicorns that are obviously real if you can just pull off enough regulatory blankets to see it.
comrade scotts agenda of rage
And the chances of the Repubs doing that are…less than zero.
ethical = good ol’ boy
@Another Scott: It shouldn’t blow up the WTO. The WTO is fine with VATs so this is just a partial implementation of what other nations already do. It will rock the WTO for sure because it’s a big change, but I think it’ll work.
I wouldn’t rule it out from happening. Democrats aren’t exactly opposed to it. Republicans aren’t exactly for it. But it is absolutely critical that the US switch it’s current preference for earned taxation over unearned. I think both parties understand that. This is a convenient vehicle to start to make that switch.
Ewwww! Now I need mental floss to get that pic of Brooks yanking it to Ryan’s pecs out of my mind. TMI and I don’t want to know. Really I don’t.
The Moar You Know
@Yarrow: Great find. This tells me they know they’re done one way or the other by 2020 at the latest. You don’t treat Senate seats as expendable.
Interesting how this is some bizarro replay of the ACA battles in the Democratic party and its affiliates and allies in 2009-10. Except the purity unicorn pony police on the right are the fucking Koch Brothers and all of their money, think tanks and organization, while the job of enforcing purity in 2009-10 fell on the hopelessly out of their depth Jane Hamshers-of-the-Left types, who lost their minds so completely once it was clear they weren’t going to get their public option pony that they linked arms with Grover-fucking-Norquist in a last ditch effort to blow shit up out of spite.
Big difference of course is that I was hopeful the lefties would prevail in getting the public option into the bill and only lost patience with them when they decided the ACA was pure evil for not having it. They wanted something good. The Kochs and their minions seem to think it’s not enough to be worth eleventy-billion dollars, so long as some poor person is getting help paying for health care. The very thought of it makes them feel poor, and we can’t have that.
I’ve said in conversations with like-minded friends and family that our best hope at a saving grace would be that Hair Furor and his Congressional pets would simply be too fucking incompetent to successfully impose their batshit, cruel agenda. And their epic fail would result in electoral losses sooner than later. I am heartened that my hope is so far looking well-placed. I do not have a single nice thing to say about soulless ghoul and towering fraud Paul “Zombie-Eyed Granny Starver” Ryan, but even I am surprised at how much of a bungler he has shown himself to be thus far.
@The Moar You Know: “This is worthy of losing a Senate seat”, said the non-Senator. It’s difficult to convince members of congress to destroy their careers for your cause.
I am pretty sure Paul Ryan is a policy wank.
I’m currently watching Secretary of Death Tom Price lie to journalists who seem to be doing a good job of stenography. I will say this — Price is a skilled liar. Of course, it’s a lot easier when there is zero pushback.
I’m curious to know why it is appropriate for the Secretary of HHS leave and press conference and his last words are “God bless you all.”
West of the Rockies (been a while)
Excellent! Call it RyanCare, TrumpCare, RepubliCare, whatever, but hang this dead albatross on their shoulders.
@germy: Keep telling yourself it was all Jill Stein’s fault and not the sclerotic, tone-deaf Democratic Party. Because the loss of 1,000+ state legislative seats is all Jill Stein’s fault. But hey, Pelosi kept her caucus leadership position (as did every other Dem caucus leader) so we are all good!*
* The biggest post-election tell was Xavier Becerra, who was the only Democratic caucus leader not AARP eligible – and who saw the writing on the wall and decided he’d rather had back to California than beat his head against the wall anymore.
The Moar You Know
@goblue72: No problem. Preach it, brother!
(Didn’t read anything after this, it looked boring and stupid)
@Kay: Wilmer liked Jeff and was willing to listen to what he had to say.
@The Moar You Know: deBoer/Sarandon 2020!
@? Martin: From my link above:
This border tax isn’t just like a VAT, and it would blow up the WTO and risks other nation’s economies. Donnie would be happy, but few others in the US and elsewhere would be.
It’s a bad idea.
(Who has nothing against a national VAT, assuming it’s done sensibly and the impact on the poor can be minimized. And who agrees that a VAT isn’t happening anytime soon, either.)
jeebus, they’re trying to
humanizeobamaize twitler with a staged photo op with kids. with that creepy fake grin and all.
also. too. hillz’s portrait photobombs these morons’ PR stunt.
So, if I understood Spicey correctly, they’re going to cause a lot of damage by first passing this bill, then letting Price do his damage at the administration level, then claim that the bill that required 60 votes is the thing to fix everything, in order to try and pressure Democrats into voting for it to repair the chaos that will most likely be ensuing at that point.
@Kay: I always love reading your comments because they really cut to the heart of the matter. You point out the hypocrisy of conservatives; how they’re supposed to be the hard-nosed realists and us the bleeding-heart dreamers. The reality couldn’t be more opposite.
And the armageddon clock moves one step closer to midnight. Again.
@Goku: Agreed. Kay is one of my favorites. I also enjoy reading Another Scott, Baud, Werebear and Chris.
now bbc is doing what should be murkan msm’s job.
Every fucking thing from him is a lie.
The fundamental differences between Republicans and Democrats are nowhere more glaring than in health care.
For Democrats the point of health care legislation is to try to insure as many people as possible. Of equal importance is to ensure that low-income people have insurance, not “access” to insurance, but actual insurance.
For Republicans the point of health care legislation is to cost the government the minimum possible amount of money (while still pretending to propose a legitimate health care bill). Of equal importance, at least rhetorically, is that patients have what the Republicans call “access” to insurance. Nowhere in Republican plans does ensuring coverage enter the equation.
Price more than once emphasized a phony dichotomy — it seems we have a choice only between rules that hurt the patient and cost the government more money OR rules that help the patient and cost the government less.
I don’t know if he realized how he was tying those things together, but he never allowed for a rule that could be good for the patient and cost more money OR be bad for the patient and cost the government less. Since the fundamental priority of Republicans is to spend less money, the second pairing — bad for patient / costs less — would be desirable. And that is all over this bill.
Jill Stein is 66. And how old is Bernie again?
The [email protected]RinaX: The trouble with this idea is that having control of both the White House and Congress, the GOP will get all blame for medical care and health insurance malfunctions. “Those obstructionist Democrats” will work as well as “those Republican obstructionists” did in 2010 and 2014.
Comrade hitting the breakfast vodka again.
@trollhattan: How to say “useful idiot” in Russian?
Speaking of 2020, I’ve been thinking about who would be a good Dem candidate and I keep coming back to Schiff. We seem to have a sort of pendulum effect with out presidents. Schiff seems to be the opposite of 45. He’s steady, measured, calm and calming, knows his subject matter, confident, etc. He may have just the right sort of presence after the chaotic 45.
Twitler likes to watch things without the sound, even he must concede that that did not go well, both he and the kid look awkward, what’s with all the pats on the back? Doesn’t he know how to give a hug? The man has spawned five kids FFS!
The Thin Black Duke
@RinaX: Nope. As the old saying goes, “When your opponent is drowning, throw him an anvil.”
Mass murder by fountain pen is what the media LIKES. Trump makes it too personal. They want to play with toy soldiers and tell each other how savvy they are to know that ‘entitlements’ have to be cut.
@comrade scotts agenda of rage:
I think it’s the reverse. The purely, calculatingly selfish are a small fringe. The GOP, base and elected officials, have drunk the Kool-Aid and think hurting people solves all problems. Especially if those people are brown. I mean, they’re ALSO greedy and corrupt, but if you’ve met the Trump voters, so are they.
We know it’s not a serious offering because it doesn’t have a cutesy acronym formed from a misleading title, such as:
Helping Every American Life To Happiness
Totally Rad Updated Medical Plan
I’m watching the Spicer news conference. He allowed pseudo-journalist and right wing lickspittle Michael Medved ask a question, an easy lob to kiss Trump’s ass.
I hate these people.
@germy: bs ?
Good luck with that, Schumer is a survivor, and he knows a winning hand when he’s dealt one. This is most definitely a “please proceed” republicans moment.
Or what @The Thin Black Duke: said.
@MomSense: I like Schiff. Do you think drump will want to run again in four years? I think he’s made his point (that he’s the greatest); no need to repeat the feat.
Indeed. “Access” is the Luntz-tested word they have been instructed to barf out as often as possible to deflect from what they are really trying to do. Some Democrats, and Bernie, have picked up on this and called it out as the bullshit it is. But more need to. As Bernie put it, I have “access” to buy a private helicopter. Pretty sure no one will sell me one unless my net worth rises exponentially.
So is the NY Times going to do follow up articles on all the people who voted for Trump once they lose their coverage? That should be fun.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Good god, they sent Spicey out with props. Do you think they first made sure Melissa McCarthy would be busy this weekend?
GOP really is the party of Death – Now it’s time to Kick them in the fucking teeth.
When spawning, the males typically release their seed in a milky cloud which the female then swims through to fertilize her eggs.
@Ksmiami: Aim lower, stop them from spreading.
Well known that he’s a raging germophobe. Eschews ahaking hands, for example.
“Wow, he’s really weird.”
– Adrian Monk
I beg to differ. We have a phony dichotomy because the Republican position on healthcare is ‘Those lazy darkies deserve to suffer.’ They throw up excuses over top of that because they’ve internalized that the label ‘racist’ is bad. Those excuses are inconsistent, because all they are is excuses. If Obamacare had a ‘White conservatives only’ clause, they would pass it in a second.
I’ve been stuck on thinking the Democratic nomination is Sherrod Brown’s if he survives his reelection in 2018 and wants to run. For most of the same reasons you mention for Schiff (who I also like a lot), and because Sherrod has impeccable pro labor credentials that ought to appeal to some of the Rust Belt WWC voters Trump conned into voting for him. Being the strongest possible candidate in Ohio doesn’t hurt either.
It’s kind of encouraging that evil and stupidity goes together so often.
@Turgidson: You can get a decent small helicopter used for less than a million. If Bernie wanted one he could buy it tomorrow.
@goblue72: where did germy say it was ALL Jill Stein’s fault? They were just expressing their dislike of Stein which is understandable since she is such an idiot on nearly every issue. Just because someone is a non-establishment outsider. doesn’t mean they’re a good candidate.
I like Schiff well enough. I think that if lasts that long, Twitler will run for re-election, Obama will still be more popular, still be said to have achieved more and be more dignified than him, he proved he could “win”, but he is still losing to Obama, and that will not do. His supporters and him want to stick it to us, what better way to stick it to us than to run and beat us again. The only way he doesn’t run again is if he is at 22 to 27 % and he knows he will lose, then he claims victory and bows out on his own terms. Also too, running again gives him a steady stream of rallies where his adoring fans can shower love on him, and after money, that is what he craves most, adoration.
Ditto. I was really worried about congress, but signs are they’re just as dysfunctional. I guess we’re about to find out.
Great post title, BTW (pace, e.e. cummings)
google Mississippi and firing squad.
this is what happens with the drug cocktails dry up for executions
I bet they wish that was how it had happened, those poor women.
Their “humanizing” efforts are not going well, perhaps he should practice, between this and his weird pull in you handshakes, it’s obvious he’s not used to human contact.
@hovercraft: I understand the Turing Test did not go well.
Not too sure about that. I get the feeling that Republicans don’t mind the fact that a repeal of Medicare and Social Security would certainly kill a lot of little old white grandmothers.
I’m watching Sean Spicer prattle on about how the free market and competition will soon result in so much excellent health care that we will never get sick again. But there is a total disconnect here between reality and free market fantasies.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@goblue72: the only Democratic caucus leader not AARP eligible –
Oh, look out everybody, Cosplay Dwight’s got his Millenial Costume on today.
“How do you do, fellow kids!”
@Another Scott: I agree with all of that. I don’t think it would have a noticeable effect on domestic jobs. My only goal is to see taxation shift from labor to value. I’ll take some backsliding in some areas to get there.
I wouldn’t count the GOP out of this. They generally prefer consumption to income taxation. But they’d have to get out of their rage frenzy first, and I don’t see that happening.
Yes! Excellent summary of Democrat and Republican positions.
@The Moar You Know:
I wish I’d thought of that.
@hovercraft: Trump won’t run again because he’ll be impeached.
Nope, not gonna work. Democrats will end up being blamed. This entire thing is about blaming the Democrats. We’ll make sure that they can also blame the Democratic constituents because I for one am not going to slap any Democratic congress critter who tries to help out. Not without significantly changing the bill towards actually helping people which we know is not going to happen… but if they want our help they better play our tune too.
@Turgidson: I’d gladly take Brown and Gillibrand in either order.
@PST: Gillibrand’s husband is a venture capitalist. This will upset the ponies and she’ll be attacked from the left, ensuring a Scott Baio win.
@germy: Jill Stein doesn’t run anything, does’t hold elective office, doesn’t occupy any leadership position in the Democratic Party. So who fricking cares. Bringing up Stein is irrelevant.
As for Sanders, his age didn’t matter because he was legitimately outside the establishment his entire career. A significant number of yellow-dog Dems got rock hard woodies prattling on during the election that Sanders wasn’t a “real” Democrat, as if that was an actual criticism for those votes who aren’t yellow dogs.
Authenticity actually turns out to matter, and can overcome age when it comes to younger voters. Who knew? (Answer: Anyone actually paying attention.)
But when it comes to the leadership of the Democratic Party – establishment Dems almost by definition for the most part – then yes, the leadership looking entirely like extras in a Depends commercial is a problem. A problem they don’t even realize is a problem, as evidence by who they picked to provide the rebuttal to Trump’s speech to the joint session of Congress last week. (Who is that old guy? Why is he sitting in a diner? Why is it so dark? Is he a Democrat? Did he get lost? Why do I feel like he’s going to try to sell me insurance from Liberty Mutual?)
The DNC and HRC spoiled a progressive landslide.
Heckuva job, DNC!
(Probably still banned. WTF, John?)
@Goku: Who said she’s a good candidate? She’s a distraction. But she’s a convenient scapegoat that a lot of folks like to bring up to avoid looking into the mirror.
The thing is there is plenty of evidence that Republicans hate poor people, not just poor black people. They might hate poor black people more than they hate poor white people, but they hate poor white people enough to make screwing them among their highest priorities. Remember, there may be higher percentages of minorities in some target categories, e.g., SNAP, but the raw numbers always go to the poor white people. If there weren’t a single African American receiving SNAP, I don’t believe for a second that Republicans would ease up on their desire and attempts to both cut the benefits (and eliminate them if they could) and humiliate the recipients. I firmly believe that Republicans are racists, but I don’t agree that that is either their only rationale for action or that it is always their primary rationale for action. They don’t seem to have much of a fight with wealthy African Americans, neither do they try to punish all rich people because some are black. I think you’re taking a serious fault and overworking it to an extreme that is unwarranted and unsupported.
I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree. See comment 95 by Brachiator. He seems to agree with me. If there were some way to measure it, I’d guess that Republicans hate poor people more than they hate African Americans. One reason why they target African Americans is because they tend to be such reliable Democratic voters. But the poor aren’t anywhere near as reliable and, yet, the Republicans go after them every chance they get.
I wish I had your confidence.
@Turgidson: We’d be better served figuring out how to get a lot more Sherrod Brown’s into Congress (and into state legislative seats)
I like Brown but he doesn’t scream Presidential and unfortunately, that shit can matter when running a Democrat for the WH. He will also be 69 in 2020 and if the Democrats don’t realize they need to run someone NOT a Baby Boomer if they have any shot at taking the WH in 2020 then they’re toast. Only exception might be a Boomer who has been a burn the hustings populist outsider – but besides Liz Warren, there really isn’t anyone that immediately comes to mind – and I expect that whatever strong positives Warren has in some parts of the country, they are countered by equally strong negatives in other parts.
@zhena gogolia: I’m confident. He’s up to his eyeballs in illegality and treasonous activity. The IC will continue to leak details, aided by our allies if necessary, and eventually the Republicans will have to choose between themselves and Trump. They are dragging their feet on this, which only means it’ll go worse for them.
The Russia stuff has taken a back seat to the immigration ban and health insurance stuff yesterday and today, but something else will leak very soon. The panicked tweets over the weekend are a sign he’s getting very nervous.
@TriassicSands: Agreed. They’re the party of the rich. Of course they hate the poor. They’re sociopaths.
@TenguPhule: Why not both. Besides if their policies go through, they WILL kill off most of their own voters
Um, the test involves actual um, intelligence, so it was doomed from the get go.
I would favor a Brown/Gillibrand ticket. Given the amount of misogyny in this country, I fear a woman (in 2020) would add more to the ticket as VP than at the top of the ticket. I hate to say that, because if there isn’t a female elected president in 2020, I’m almost certainly never going to see a female president. I expected to in 2016, and that was a long time coming because I always expected to see a woman elected before an African American. However, maybe history is instructive. As a matter of law African American men got the vote before women (white or black) did.
Gillibrand is plenty young enough to serve as VP and still be around to move up to president. Brown will be 68 in 2020, which means that’s probably his last shot age-wise. Gillibrand is 14 years younger — she’s got plenty of time. She wouldn’t even have to be on a winning ticket in 2020 to have a shot at it in 2024 or even later.
Brown must win in 2018, but if he can’t win Ohio, then his case for winning the country is somewhat weaker. Plus, even though we did get to kick Tricky Dick around some more, his was an unusual case. Losing a major election is not usually a springboard to higher office.
Brown/Gillibrand would be an exciting ticket. One thing I don’t know is how Brown is as a campaigner. Has anyone seen him in action?
Six months ago, I would have agreed with you, these days, watching theses invertebrates compete to see who is the most limber among them, I have my doubts.
But since you’re being optimistic, from your lips/fingers to FSM’s ears, if she has any.
NEOLIBERAL DEMOCRATS NEED TO REACH OUT TO HARDWORKING WHITE PEOPLE IN COAL COUNTRY BUT LOL NOT BY USING ACTUAL WHITE DEMOCRATS FROM COAL COUNTRY
Are you still whining about Sanders? Jeez, man, get off it. Who else you got?
You have a very good point here. I hear that the Democratic response was a dud, and it should have been a vigorous declaration of principles.
On the other hand, I did catch Bernie Sander’s response to Trump. Sanders gave a pale, pointless rehash of one of his stump speeches. He is a nice guy, but a one-trick pony.
The thing is this drip drip drip is a big deal to us and some in the media, but his approval rating are still sky high with republicans, and so long as that’s the case Ryan and Turtle will not move against him. We can’t stand him and he pisses us off, the republicans that’s proof that he’s doing it right.
@TriassicSands: I think it’s a bit more fundamental than that.
I think Republicans see healthcare as an accounting cost, where Democrats see it as an economic cost. The difference is that Republicans fail to acknowledge that there is an opportunity cost associated with healthcare. Anyone who is sick isn’t working, and isn’t providing economic output. If you see economic output as fungible, then that’s okay – paying a nurse is no different than paying a machinist. But Democrats do see a difference – healthcare doesn’t benefit from the law of accelerating returns – it’s not an investment, but a cost. It doesn’t help make the next generation of workers more productive or have a better quality of life. A new road will benefit many future workers, but a hospital full of sick people doesn’t.
It speaks to the fact that the GOP, for all their claims of dynamic scoring and whatnot, have a very zero-sum and linear attitude to anything economic. That drives their health policy, immigration, taxation, and so on. Democrats have a non-zero sum attitude. Democrats believe that if you can keep people healthy and working, even if that means suppressing the profit-making capacity of the healthcare sector, that the economy will be better off because investments will flow into areas of accelerating returns.
I agree as well. They are racist, certainly, and for some of them that may be a primary motivation for what they do, but mostly they are sociopaths w/o compassion. People unlike themselves are not actually real to them.
@Brachiator: If your test for what makes a charismatic Democrat is “does or doesn’t this guy look like an old grump who just wandered into a diner,” one person who REALLY ain’t gonna pass is Bernie Sanders.
@Brachiator: The people who watch the president’s non-SoTU are mostly from the president’s party. So it was smart to put an old white guy up there to respond. That’s who was watching.
The best thing to hope for is that the response doesn’t do damage. If the guy who gave the response didn’t do damage, that’s good enough for me. Save our energy for speeches that count.
I have reason to believe that Brown probably isn’t interested (although that’s not definitive). I kind of like Gillibrand, although it’s very hard for me to spell her name correctly.
I think the Republicans are in a difficult place. They are going to have problems getting 218 in the House without making the bill worse so as to assuage the Freedom Caucus and they’re going to have problems getting to 51 in the Senate without making the bill (a little) better so as to satisfy the (somewhat) moderates. This is similar to the situation the Democrats were in in 2009 where the liberals were pushing for a public option (or nothing) and the moderates were hoping to pass something like the Republicans used to favor so as to minimize political damage. Watching Rand Paul and some “conservative” Congressmen now on the Capitol steps is convincing me that the House bill is going to have to be much worse to get to 218. They will probably fall in line if and only if they are granted at least some of what they want.
@germy: Yes, but those Russian state dinners make Jill Stein look and feel younger.
Anonymous At Work
Voltaire once said, “If God did not exist, man would need to invent Him.”
Paul Ryan falls under the same heading. “If Paul Ryan didn’t exist, the DC Press Corps would need to invent a thoughtful conservative policy wonk.”
Relatedly, Donnie is going to fix the drug price problem:
I guess that means he’s going to get rid of drug patents!!1 Or force them to be licensed under FRAND terms!!11 Yay!!1
What? What’s that?? Revoking drug patents is unconstitutional? Since when has that stopped Donnie?!??
Donnie doesn’t have any patents, so who cares if he blows up the patent system, amirite?
Seriously, cui bono? Either this is just another stupid thing that Donnie says that doesn’t mean anything (like MAGA), or he or his billionaire friends are going going to find a way to grift their cut. Or both/and. There aren’t any other obvious choices.
These are not mutually exclusive.
Why not? Solid record to both activists and party loyalists, he seems experienced but not old, knows his shit on policy (and/or is self-aware enough to know what he doesn’t know and keep quiet about it) And besides, when contrasted with Hair Furor, a gallon of spoiled milk spilled on a dead ferret in a dumpster will seem “presidential.” Those qualities obviously don’t matter a whit to 60-some million voters or we wouldn’t be in the present crisis, anyway.
And as you acknowledge, he has many of Warren’s strengths on the issues without being nearly as much of a lightning rod for misogyny or bullshit concern trolling from the MSM about how extreme the left wing of the party is. Brown has the record but is a proven winner in a Rust Belt swing state. Much as I’d love for a Democratic presidential candidate to be able to campaign without worrying about upsetting the delicate fee-fees of WWC special snowflakes in the Midwest and Rust Belt, it’s not the world we live in right now. Sherrod has won enough of their votes to stay in office in Ohio and without pandering to them too egregiously, from what I can tell.
As far as age, who cares. Bernie is ancient, as is Trump. I really don’t think Hillary lost because of her age, even with the walking pneumonia episode. If the person seems up to the job during the campaign, I don’t think age matters all that much.
It would sting to lose Sherrod’s seat in the Senate – I’m assuming their governor who would replace him will still be a Republican after 2018 given Kasich’s continued, inexplicable popularity and the Dems’ apparent lack of a bench in Ohio.
@Anonymous At Work:
Which they did, because Mr. Magic Asterix is NOT a thoughtful conservative policy wonk.
@Anonymous At Work:
That’s the problem though, he never was a policy wonk. He’s simply the face of Heritage’s white papers, in the form of legislation, his budgets have all relied on magical thinking, the term “dynamic scoring” was invented because the CBO trashed his budget year after year as not adding up, the fact that they didn’t use his magical asterix growth rate was blamed for the huge deficits his budgets would create. Never mind that the growth rates necessary to achieve a balanced budget have been unseen since WWII when we were you know fighting a massive was on two fronts.
He is a fiction, he is not serious about policy, he is serious about his ideology, government bad, private sector good, starve the government, subsidize the rich and corporations.
Nah, don’t worry, he’ll come back in a few days or weeks and tell us that drug pricing is complicated. Whocoulda known?
Not sure that it matters if he runs again (I’m hoping for an orange jumpsuit and shackles) we tend to vote for the opposite of the previous president.
The other poster actually made a good point when noting that it is ultimately the messenger, not the message that matters.
Don’t really agree here. If the Democratic Party response was a barn burner, no matter who delivered it, people would watch it and talk about it. And they would watch it not only after the Trump speech, but would watch it later on YouTube.
There are lots of votes besides yours and mine. And where we are now, every speech counts.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Go on keep and telling yourself Stien wasn’t just another of Putin’s little traitor puppets. The only differance between her and Trump is Trump got lucky in Putin’s gamble. Yes, yes, I am sure it’s typical for hard left liberals to sit down and have dinner with viscious reactionary dictators, I mean Stien’s dinner with Putin = McGovern bombing Hitler in WWII, right GoBlue? But that’s typical of the Greens to sell out to the hard right, the clue is how quick they are to accuse anyone else of being no differant from the conservatives.
I think Guardians of the Galaxy covered the whole “I have a plan” thing.
When do we see Ryan’s dance-off?
That’s just question-begging. It means “the people who like Bernie Sanders like him for his likeability.”
Ben Carson said obamacare and abortion were both slavery, yet he just said that slavery wasn’t slavery, just immigration. I need answers
@DekuSean Which means abortion is anti immigration! Duh!
Because he loves Medicaid! The GOP governors love the most liberal part of Obamacare. They hate the conservative parts and want to get rid of them.
We should be able to agree on Medicaid For All. Everyone loves it!
We sure did this time.
@FlipYrWhig: RE: The other poster actually made a good point when noting that it is ultimately the messenger, not the message that matters.
No. Not at all. I don’t like Bernie Sanders. He was never my candidate. I also noted that I did not find his post Trump speech to be effective.
I had not seen the Democratic Party response before. I pulled it up into YouTube. What a fucking embarrassment. It looks like the Zombie King and a gallery of corpses trying desperately to appeal to old white men and their caretakers.
The Democrats need an effective message. And they need effective messengers.
This is true. But focusing on the speech following the not-SotU is really a waste of time. No one talked about the response guy after the speech. It’s over and done. Even if he’d been great, the TRUMP WAS PRESIDENTIAL11!1 media would never have covered it. I have no problem with the Democrats not spending any time on it.
A lot of new and younger people are coming up. Let’s focus on them, give them platforms and move the party forward.
@Brachiator: goblue72 evoked “authenticity” as the reason why people (some number of them, young ones) like Bernie Sanders. But that doesn’t tell us anything. It’s just a way for people who like Bernie Sanders to say that they… like the Bernie Sanders-ness of Bernie Sanders. It doesn’t tell us anything about who _else_ they’d like.
I know they like Keith Ellison. Do they like Keith Ellison’s “authenticity”? How would they even know? I think what they really like about Keith Ellison, apart from the fact that he was blessed by Sanders personally, is that he seems cool, because he looks like a cross between Malcolm X and Terrence Howard. He’s a cool liberal. That’s not “authenticity” in the way it’s normally used.
More to the point: do they like other people with “authenticity”? What about people who they’d probably say have “authenticity” but aren’t especially liberal–like Brian Schweitzer or Jon Tester, if by “authentic” we mean something like “not cautious, blow-dried, or robotic”?
Anyway, I think the whole category is poppycock.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Yarrow: those ‘response’ speeches have a very bad history as predictors of rising stars– Marco, Bobby Jindal, Bob Freakin McDonnell anyone?, Jim Webb….
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Webb’s was good, as I recall. Largely on the strength of that speech I remember some buzz that Obama should pick Webb for VP.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@FlipYrWhig: George W Bush faked authenticity well, as did– to a lot of the people who fell for Bernie!, including Susan Sarandon and if memory serves Michael Moore– John Edwards
Do the Republicans want their health care bill to pass?
Maybe not. They’re going to need sixty votes in the senate to pass key parts of it and they’re unlikely to get the number of Democrats they need to get passage. So what then?
They will have completely destabilized the individual health care market and the PPACA will crash. “There!” says Paul Ryan and Trump, “We told you so!”
And who gets the blame? Why the Democrats of course. They brought us Obamacare which (the ignorant think) collapsed on its own. And since the Republican bill didn’t make it through the senate, that failure is also the fault of the Democrats.
Then, in 2018, the Republicans make big gains in the senate and maintain control in the House. If they make it all the way to 60 senators, the Democrats will be completely powerless and the Republicans will waltz their bill through both houses.
It could work. If not, why not?
@Yarrow: RE: The Democrats need an effective message. And they need effective messengers.
I got time to waste. I had not seen the speech before. And my larger point is that the Democratic Party strategy in selecting the guy and the staging for the speech, while understandable, was stupid.
The Democrats need to think and do better.
I disagree with this poster about most things. But not this. I don’t think that “authenticity” is everything, but I think that you are just trying to say that you really, really don’t like Bernie, and missing the point.
But I think that this horse is as dead as it ever is going to get, and not worth much more discussion. So, I will see your poppycock and raise you a box of Crackerjack.
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Oy. John Edwards might as well be the perfect negation of the category of authenticity in politics. He reinvented himself multiple times, and he’s slick and handsome. But, in a general sense, yes, I think the existence of John Edwards, Bold Liberal Alternative proves just how little anybody cares about “authenticity.”
@Brachiator: Well, the point is “To win, we need Democratic candidates who people like, but not the way the greater number of people who liked Hillary Clinton liked her, the way the smaller number of people who liked Bernie Sanders liked him, meaning with bonus Give ‘Em Hell points for being disheveled, cranky, and speaking with an accent.” This is not a strategy. And it’s not even what Bernie Sanders fans want in anyone who isn’t already Bernie Sanders. No one else _they_ like carries him- or herself that way.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@FlipYrWhig: Tom Perez is pretty damn authentic. Authentically awkward on TV, authentically kinda geeky, and an authentically proven lifetime record of commitment to labor and voting rights. People who think they care about those issues hate him because the Magic Man told them to like the Other Guy.
The Republicans promised to repeal and replace Obamacare. Trump is on the record as saying that he would come up with Miracle Trump Care, which would have all the virtues and none of the defects of Obamacare.
The Democrats have the advantage on this. Do they have any ideas on how to patch Obamacare? There is no reason that they need to let the GOP get out of the jam they have put themselves into.
They can easily hit on the affordability and access lies. And while there are Republicans who may believe everything that Trump says, the same is not the same with respect to the rest of the Republican Party.
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: “Authentic” probably means the opposite of “tries too hard” and/or “eager to please.” And I see how this tends to be an appealing quality in a person. But I don’t think that means that what Democrats need most is “authentic” people. I’d rather be investing energy into finding smart and liberal people, and then maybe not carping at them for 30 years with contradictory advice.
@Brachiator: Good idea in theory, but the last thing we need right now is a way for the pundit set to say “See, even Democrats admit that Obamacare is all kinds of fucked up!” I’d concentrate on saying that all plans under discussion do the exact opposite of what Trump said he wanted, which was lower premiums and better coverage for less money, and that — as Obama himself said many times — if Republicans can come up with ways to accomplish those goals, the Democratic Party will be more than happy to entertain their suggestions on the merits, but until then, better keep at it, guys.
Unfortunately, I’m a committed long time believer in the stupidity of the American electorate, reinforced by the 2016 presidential election, not to mention countless other House and Senate elections going back years.
The Republicans have a long, successful record of out messaging the Democrats. On abortion, on the “death” tax, and on and on.
I’m not sure the Democrats advantage is real because the people aren’t reliable, but they are fickle and gullible. A deadly combination for the rational.
The 2018 midterms are terrible for the Dems on paper. Gerrymandering takes care of the House and the Dems have to defend many seats in GOP-friendly country.
Trump, of course, is the wild card in all this. If the Russia thing turns into a real scandal with heavy casualties, who knows? He’s never going to be a normal or even passable president, but if he can just keep from a major catastrophe (an open question, for sure) then the GOP could be fine in 2018.
They could walk away with 60(+) votes in the Senate. If that happens, who cares about health care. They’ll go after Social Security and Medicare. The Republican Revolution is over!
My perspective is colored by my utter lack of confidence in the American electorate. Today, I’d say there is ample evidence justifying that feeling.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Yep – I never want to hear the word “establishment” again. So many liberal, politically engaged people continue to harp on this nothing-burger. It is so frustrating – it really stands in the way of having productive conversations with people that I’d like to engage with.
You keep bringing up Bernie Sanders. Just not helpful or meaningful, at least not to me. He is not the sole or best model of an appealing candidate.
Besides, as another poster noted, Tom Perez seems to be authentic,likable, etc. And who knows who else may emerge in the next few years as we get closer to the 2020 campaign.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@hovercraft: In a word Ryan is dreamer, were others saw a Dickisonian nightmare of forced child labor and industrial misery Ryan sees a golden city on the hill (threw all the smog). It’s like the Columbia in Bio Shock Infinite, floating serenely above the smoke clouds were every day is the 4th of July complete with animitronic George Washnitons saying “God Bless America”! Why oh why must Ryan the dreamer half to turn his blue eyes from such wonderful dreams to the dull and dreary work of legislation?
You forget option 3. They double down on all in and go full facist with brownshirts goose stepping down the halls of congress.
If the choice is between failure and dictatorship, which do you really believe the GOP will choose?
Obviously because drug standards won’t be enforced so there will be no need for the pills to actually have MEDICINE INSIDE OF THEM.
Donald’s death and mounted head on a pike can not come soon enough.
J R in WV
No, no they can’t do that. Who would pay for it? Not just the time of the shooters in the firing squad, but all that ammunition, too!!
OK. Works, too. My main point is that the Democrats do not have to meekly accept GOP attempts to blame them for Obamacare failures.
I’m not in the fortune telling business. I still can’t believe that Trump won, so I am even too cautious to speculate (much).
But I also think that a counter-reaction to Obama, which helped lead to Trump’s narrow victory, has also loosened something vile in some Americans that goes beyond stupidity. And I’m not sure how best to deal with this or to rein it in, but that it makes it even more difficult to come up with easy scenarios to victory. The 2018 and 2020 elections are still a long way off.
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: I’m not sure if it was the 2010 or the 2012 campaign but one of the laugh/applause lines when Obama was talking about the GOP and the economy was ‘These guys ran the car into the ditch in 2008 and now you want to give them the keys again?’
After 6 weeks of Trumpworld and one day of the GOP’s healthcare plan, it seems obvious that they still are not able to drive the car safely. But the voters gave them the keys (sigh)
@Brachiator: Fine, but that’s specifically what goblue was referring to: authenticity a la Bernie Sanders. I don’t think Tom Perez, as much as I like what I know of the guy, is the same type at all. IMHO Tim Kaine is authentic in the sense of being a good guy who knows who he is and wears his heart on his sleeve with a charming sort of awkwardness. I’ve never heard anyone talk him up as some great hope for the future of the Democratic Party. I don’t think “adorkable” (Kaine, Perez, maybe Sherrod Brown; I’d throw in Krugman, Maddow) and “authentic” are the same thing when bandied about in politics. “Authentic” means something else, something like “fiery,” and it applies almost exclusively to Sanders and Warren, maybe Biden too.
No. A California member of the Democratic Party, and strong Sanders enthusiast, wrote an essay in one of the local newspapers about always being drawn to the most “progressive” and “authentic” Democratic challenger, who was almost always perceived to be the outsider, or the one who fought against establishment issues and spoke more directly to the people. So, this guy had in past elections backed Jerry Brown, Jessie Jackson, Barack Obama, Barry Sanders.
This reminds me obliquely in how in 1967 and 1968, young people and others flocked to Clean Gene McCarthy, who could not be described as fiery, and deeply resented it when “establishment insider” Robert Kennedy decided to run for president and quickly stole Gene’s thunder as the outsider who would stand up to Lyndon Johnson.
Goblue may have meant Bernie Sanders and nothing but Bernie Sanders, but that does not mean that the political conversation has to be stuck on Sanders, who is not the best example of anything.
@Brachiator: What that shows me is that the guy who wrote to the paper thinks progressive, populist, outsider, and authentic are all the same thing, probably because he is stupid.
Yeah, they are and as I said Trump is the wildest card in American history. The other night I posed a question for some of the late-night commenters asking if Trump is better than what they expected, what they expected, or worse than they expected. Honestly, I didn’t believe anyone who said he is what they expected. I could see the point of some who said better in some ways because all of Trump’s screwups seemed to be slowing down the GOP machine. But the people who said he’s just what they expected, I kind of didn’t believe — they weren’t lying, they were kidding themselves, I thought.
During the campaign, I hated Trump about as much as you could hate someone without ever having had personal contact and I couldn’t have had a lower opinion of his abilities if he’d been in a persistent vegetative state. That said, I find I stand in awe of how truly terrible he is. I didn’t expect him to change (big presidential change), but I thought the act might get toned down a little if he had some imposing, knowledgeable people around him. But he surrounded himself with mostly 3rd or 4th rate people. The supposed calming effect of people like Kushner and Ivanka has not been apparent. I could go on, but out of compassion, I’ll stop there.
So, Trump is worse than I could have imagined and I imagined he would be by far the most inept and loathsome president* we’ve ever had. He is, but he’s so much more. Or as he might say it. “He’s so very, very, very much worse. He’s a bad (sick) person. Terrible!”
* Like a lot of BJ commenters I go back a way. Some of my earlier childhood memories are of the 1956 political conventions.
Gotta head out for awhile.
Longtime, faithful Democrat who attended the convention is stupid. Really?
Should he be kicked out of the party because he doesn’t meet your high standards?
BTW, I disagree with this person big time over his mis-interpretation of Hillary Clinton’s use of the term “Deplorables.” But for what it’s worth, I went back and found his essay.
Yeah, he’s been touched by the purity pony, but he is not alone among Democrats, and perhaps should be listened to. And note that this person votes reliably for the ticket.
@Brachiator: Extremely stupid, and obviously so, and proud of it. He can vote for whoever he wants to vote for, but the only reason to link it to “authenticity” is so that he can kiss his own ass. “I’m so awesomely anti-establishment-y I always vote for the populist liberal outsider.” No, you’re voting for who you like and then remapping a whole set of political axes onto your choice. It’s one of the single most obnoxious political tendencies on the whole left spectrum.
ETA: I don’t want to hear one more stupid word about “Wall Street.” People who voted for Trump don’t give two runny shits about Wall Street.
@germy: poleznij durak