Way back in 2005, when most of us were barely born, Republicans re-learned one of the basic rules of US American politics: don’t fuck with the olds. For those of you who haven’t taken a “History of the 2000’s” class recently, here’s a refresher about Bush’s attempt to privatize Social Security:
Having invested so much political capital in this issue, President Bush embarked on the first of what proved to be a long series of tours crammed with events at which he pitched his plan to the people. It soon became apparent that it would be a tough sell. Within weeks, observers noticed that the more the President talked about Social Security, the more support for his plan declined. According to the Gallup organization, public disapproval of President Bush’s handling of Social Security rose by 16 points from 48 to 64 percent–between his State of the Union address and June.
By early summer the initiative was on life support, with congressional Democrats uniformly opposed and Republicans in disarray.After Hurricane Katrina inundated what remained of the President’s support, congressional leaders quietly pulled the plug. By October, even the President had to acknowledge that his effort had failed.
As someone who was living during that bygone time, I remember that my idiot Republican Congressman was savaged by his opponent in the 2006 race because he entertained Bush during his “death to seniors” tour.
Of course, the 2000’s were different, simpler times. Many olds did not have their heads crammed full of Fox News horseshit, and Facebook had not yet been invented, so one or two actual facts were able to sneak into their heads. But one thing hasn’t changed in the few years more than an entire decade that has passed since the Republicans last tried to fuck with the olds: the olds have some very powerful lobbies that know how to fight. For example, here’s the AARP using some simple, clear messaging to brand Trumpcare as an “age tax”. The quality of that messaging almost brings a tear to my eye. Accusing Republicans of a new tax targeted at old people is so perfect that an establishment Democrat could never think of it, and if they did, they’d immediately confess to their therapist. The video is pure old person poetry – corny yet direct, hammering home one simple message linking Republicans and taxes, and asking the olds to call Congress.
RETWEET: The “age tax” would force Americans age 50-64 to pay thousands of $$$ more for health care. Tell Congress #NoAgeTax! pic.twitter.com/eFUcRZtm22
— AARP Advocates (@AARPadvocates) March 6, 2017
By the way, if you’re not 50 yet, you may not know that the AARP starts recruiting members once you hit that age. Any organization whose membership dies off at the rate of the AARP’s needs to get them while they’re relatively young.
Baud
I think that’s why they are trying to pass this thing without talking about it.
Kay
Reforming health care is a bitch, which is why all the people before Obama failed at it. I will take pleasure in all these loudmouth geniuses reforming it again.
Saying “across state lines” over and over again isn’t going to cut it, gentlemen. Better get to work!
I also can’t help but notice the one part of Obamacare GOP governors can’t part with is the most liberal part- Medicaid. Kasich loves him some single payer. Welcome aboard! Can we all agree that the conservative parts of Obamacare suck? Bipartisan.
dr. bloor
The 50 to 57/60 year old group is particularly important to them, as they’re most likely to miss out on any “grandfathering” clauses that the Republicans include in regressive insurance/Medicare/SS legislation to keep the olds from rioting.
Good ad. To borrow from P.J. O’Rourke (yeah, yeah), Age and Guile, baby, Age and Guile.
Corner Stone
It’s looking more and more like this ACA repeal bill is a nuclear radiation hot potato.
Kay
@Baud:
Democrats did a really good job opposing Bush’s Social Security privatization plan. They also did a really good job on S-CHIP. They were effective opposition in that period.
Corner Stone
@Kay:
Our side really needs something pithy that quickly states “across state lines” = bucket of shit.
SRW1
Don’t f*ck with the Olds. They have seen it all, they have all day to think how to fight back, and those suckers vote.
Kay
Since the GOP governors love Medicaid lets do Medicaid available for all, except for those on Medicare :)
Solved. You’re welcome :)
Corner Stone
@Kay:
And Rand Paul just stated accurately that you can’t have guaranteed issuance without a mandate. Hey! Hoocoodanode, Sen Assface?
...now I try to be amused
AARP actually represents 50-64 year old people? I’ll be damned. I might have to join after all.
guachi
It’s crazy to think TrumpDon’tCare could cost low income earners 50% of their income for insurance.
The ads write themselves.
Corner Stone
@SRW1:
I personally do not want the future of health care to rely on “the Olds”. And satisfying their needs.
They may be a useful bulwark at times to be implemented as we can, but IMO they are not a true ally.
Kay
@Corner Stone:
it’s a dilemma all right. health care is complicated! They so deserve to get mobbed by angry AARP members. Arrogant, know-nothing assholes who write checks they can’t cash.
efgoldman
@Corner Stone:
Awfully broad brush you’re painting with there. chainsaw boy.
aimai
@…now I try to be amused: I just joined (56) for just the sreason, I wanted to be able to demand they take action.
JPL
It’s reasonable to believe that Trump has no idea what’s in the bill.
This scenario will be replayed throughout his presidency.
dr. bloor
@Corner Stone:
So, use ’em when they’re useful, fuck’em when they’re not? Sounds suspiciously like what you’re accusing them of doing.
When it comes to health care, you can probably count “true allies” on one hand. Everybody and every faction has their own agenda, and the best you can hope for are shifting coalitions on an issue-by-issue basis.
aimai
@Corner Stone: They aren’t a true ally, but they are extra ballast. That’s the way to look at it. The ad is directed at straight up selfishness, but that is the best mover of humans to action there can be. If I had the money I’d be running ads directed at poor people on medicaid urging them to register to vote and demand alllllllll the money and services people get in other countries. But a) I don’t have the money, b) poor people tend not to register /be able to register to vote so its a two step process and c) its hard to organize people. really hard. If there is an easily organized, voting section, of the white population that can turn against Trump and the GOP then we’d better mobilize them. Regardless of how we feel about selfishness as a motive.
Kay
Too late! The bigmouth President already said he supports it. He’s a deal maker. It’s what he ran on! Has to close this deal no matter how many GOP members of Congress must be sacrificed.
This is TrumpCare.
SRW1
@Corner Stone:
1. Beggars can’t be choosers.
2. Most of us hope to reach old some day.
Jeffro
Win.
DOUBLE WIN!
Nice, MM!
Also, just because I’m a little tired of having to fight for the most basic shit (or to protect the most basic shit) every. fucking. day: FUCK TRUMP AND EVERY GODDAM LAST ONE OF HIS FUCKING VOTERS AND ESPECIALLY PAUL RYAN AND THE FUCKING TURTLE!!!1!
Ahem. That’s better. Now then…everyone enjoy this beautiful day, don’t forget to call your MoCs, and be the happiest of happy warriors!
Humboldtblue
More than 19,000 people in Humboldt County have signed up for the ACA since its inception. That’s a lot of people who can afford to see a doctor —
Roger Moore
One thing I notice about this is that the guy in the ad is very different from the ones Democrats like to use. The Democrats tend to pick frail-looking older people who are intended to provoke pity. The guy in the ad is what people like to think they’ll be like when they’re old; he may be getting gray, but he’s still vigorous and healthy. Something worth thinking about when trying to appeal to that demographic.
eldorado
note the landline, not cellphone. nice touch.
Corner Stone
@efgoldman: I don’t know what a “chainsaw boy” is, anything like a rent boy? Because boy could I use one of them about now!
It is a broad brush but IMO it holds to some truths. Not everyone is going to agree on items or how it should happen but I think one thing has borne out over the last two decades or so of these fights. “The Olds” will fight like furious hell to make sure their ass is covered but, as an overwhelming group, don’t mind a few tweaks here and there that don’t apply to them because they are carve outs.
Martha
@Jeffro: An Age Tax being promoted by someone who doesn’t pay his own taxes…the jokes write themselves. Sigh.
FlipYrWhig
It’s really pretty amazing to see how many Republicans appear to think the problem with health care in America is that too many people get too much of it too cheaply.
zhena gogolia
Why is ageism okay on this blog when other sorts of prejudice and stereotyping are taboo?
Gin & Tonic
But could Wilmer think of it? If so, why hasn’t he?
zhena gogolia
@Roger Moore:
But he talks to a stuffed squirrel, so I think he has incipient dementia. I find the ad rather creepy.
Corner Stone
@dr. bloor:
I do not recall seeing the “fuck’em” part in my comment. Only the acknowledgement that they, as a group, are an advocacy block for what’s best for “them”. Which is reality and should be stated out front and understood on this matter. Just like the “Healthy Youngs” don’t want to pay for something they haven’t yet realized the value of, in some cases.
Those two “blocs” aren’t going to agree on everything and finding out what is useful to stop the GOP is the goal.
Gin & Tonic
@zhena gogolia: Forget it, Jake, it’s Corner Stone.
zhena gogolia
@Gin & Tonic:
I was referring to the original post.
Corner Stone
@Jeffro:
Get outta my head!!
Corner Stone
@Gin & Tonic: What’s that supposed to mean, oldie?
dr. bloor
@zhena gogolia: Nonsense. Being referred to as a “bulwark” and “ballast” is a sign of esteem and respect in most cultures.
amk
These are the peeps that vote for gop and against their own interest all the time, right?
Droppy
Thank you for referring to 50 as “relatively young.” Even though I know it’s not true, it’s just one more little whistle past the graveyard.
zhena gogolia
@dr. bloor:
For starters, the term “the olds” is offensive.
Corner Stone
Say what you will, but there’s a lot of blinding red clothing on MSNBC this AM.
O. Felix Culpa
@zhena gogolia:
Thank you. I’m an aspiring “Old” myself and a dedicated progressive activist. Nice thing about being semi-retired is I have more time for organizing. Since I have two millennial children and because I can care about things beyond the borders of myself, I care about the “Youngs” and their future too.
JPL
@Jeffro: Couldn’t of said it better.
We have a madman in the White House, and as long as Trump signs the bills that they want, they don’t care. I’m surprised that Trump hasn’t nuked North Korea yet, because Kim Jong-un embarrassed him.
Ramiah Ariya
Successive elections in the US have proved that around 40% of the voting population lives in a bubble; KNOWS it; but does it anyway because it makes liberal heads explode. This 40% enjoy making up unbelievable arguments and stories JUST SO other people get annoyed. The elections in the US turn democratic when they cannot possibly sustain this bubble.
If we look back at the quality of the last 3,4 Republican presidents (Trump, GW Bush, Bush Senior, Reagan) vs the 3 Democratic presidents (Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton and Barack Obama) it is clear that Republicans have successively voted for incompetent and malevolent people; while Democrats come along after the crisis of Watergate or the Great Recession and fix up. This is the strange dynamics of politics in the USA.
In the case of GW Bush, it took Katrina and the Iraqi insurgents to burst open the bubble so that reality could come in and slap people in the face.
With Trump, this bubble has stayed intact, because of the lack of internal and external crisis, for now. The Healthcare disaster may be the only way the fools’ bubble will clear.
American politics is mostly perpetual swing states unable to resist electing an incompetent Republican until they cannot sustain the total disaster those guys bring to the table.
01jack
@Corner Stone:
Really. It needs to convey the idea that state insurance regulations are consumer protections.
ET
I think Republicans in Congress are in an even more tenuous position then they were. I would hazard a guess that a higher portion of their voters are olds. Olds that were old during Bush 43 and the olds that have become olds in the meantime. Messing with the olds in the era of Twitter and Facebook is going to be a whole new education for them. But it will a self-inflicted (and well earned) pummeling.
The Dangerman
@zhena gogolia:
Agreed. Either that was some focus group brain fart or someone was high when the script was written. That was so unnecessary.
Roger Moore
@zhena gogolia:
There’s also the contrast between the way the guy is portrayed and the reality he’s pitching. So they show the older guy as healthy (chopping wood, obviously vigorous) and generous (helping his buddy the squirrel) while they’re implicitly trading on older people’s sickness (needing more expensive healthcare) and greed (worried about an “age tax”). I think this is straight out of Propaganda 101: the more you’re playing on people’s baser instincts, the more you have to talk up what great people they are.
zhena gogolia
@Roger Moore:
Well, I disagree with you that worrying about an increase of $3000 in one’s yearly health-care budget when one is no longer drawing a salary could be characterized as “greed.”
SFAW
@zhena gogolia:
Maybe “the geries” instead? (Soft “g,” of course)
SWMBO
@aimai: Back when I was coming to grips with having a disabled child, I felt guilty over some of the things I did. It was selfish on my part and selfish for my kid to get his part. My therapist told me not to look at it as selfish as “enlightened self interest. You are worthy of what you want.”
Yes, this year I cross the 60 threshold and I am old (instead of middle aged). We aren’t dying off fast enough for the Republicans and a lot of us have no intention of going quietly. We persist.
Kay
@Corner Stone:
I have mine on although it clashes with my coral-ish manicure. I’ll take the hit because I am a trooper.
rikyrah
@Jeffro:
This.This.
1000x this.
Ohio Mom
I found that commercial a little too weird but it did keep my attention and I stuck around to hear the whole message. Maybe the people who put it together know what they are doing?
Just finished calling all my Congressmen and for good measure, the White House Comment Line. And now I have to start on the rest of today’s to-do list.
aimai
@Corner Stone: They don’t have to agree on everything–that is what a coalition is.
...now I try to be amused
@Ramiah Ariya:
Yep, that’s what it’s come to. With Republicans it will always take another Katrina to open people’s eyes.
rikyrah
Republican health care plans break new ground in hypocrisy
03/07/17 11:20 AM—UPDATED 03/07/17 02:16 PM
By Steve Benen
In many ways, calling out politicians for hypocrisy is almost too easy. Worse, hypocrisy is so common, it can be boring to talk about.
But once in a while, the dynamic is so strong, and so jarring, even the most jaded and cynical of political observers have to pause and take note. Consider, for example, how House Republicans are proceeding with their alternative to the Affordable Care Act.
Committee votes are likely begin as early as tomorrow.
And on the surface, that’s plainly crazy. Lawmakers have no idea what the Republican bill costs, how many it will cover, how many Americans will lose their insurance, or what the impact will be on the budget deficit. House Speaker Paul Ryan (R-Wis.) hopes to rush the process to prevent everyone – voters, reporters, lawmakers, stakeholders, et al – from coming to terms with just how bad a bill he’s produced, so committees are poised to vote on a blueprint members know little about.
But just below the surface, the picture looks even less flattering. For years, Republicans have complained bitterly that when “Obamacare” was coming together, Democrats wrote the bill behind closed doors, then rushed it through the legislative process. In reality, that’s never been altogether fair – the ACA was publicly available for a month before a single vote was cast, and it was the subject of 130 hearings across the five committees, all as part of a debate that lasted over a year – but we nevertheless now see the same lawmakers who whined writing a bill in private and trying to jam it down everyone’s throats.
Republicans said the ACA was written without bipartisan input, which isn’t true, and which hasn’t stopped them from writing their alternative plan without even trying to solicit bipartisan input.
Republicans said deductibles are too high under the ACA, which led them to write a bill in which deductibles will be even higher.
Kristine
@The Dangerman: I saw it as a take-off on some of those nutritional ads–older folks waterskiing and hiking while drinking *nsure.
Corner Stone
@aimai: That was actually my point in what I considered a fairly measured comment.
aimai
@The Dangerman: I thought it was leading up to a “this plan is NUTS” joke. But then they forgot to put the line in.
Aleta
Do members of congress continue to be eligible for their congressional health insurance plan after they retire ?
Buskertype
Sweet holy Jeebus! “Age Tax”
Go ahead and call of the fight before Paul Ryan gets hurt!
Josie
@zhena gogolia: Agreed. As an “old” who doesn’t get her news or views from Fox News or Facebook, I really resent the broad brush. This is not the first time for mistermix, however. The only upside for me is the knowledge that someday he will be an “old” also and will have to put up with this kind of shit from younger people. It happens to the best of us. : )
bystander
@zhena gogolia:
They need that swinging chick from the other AARP commercial who’s walking toward the camera telling us all she’s only 60-something and has Big Plans. The rest of us are waiting for the Grim Reaper to pop out of the bushes behind her.
...now I try to be amused
@Ohio Mom:
Propaganda that works on most people doesn’t work at all on me. I know I’m not a good judge of propaganda. I’m guessing you’re like that too.
Glidwrith
@01jack: Every regulation has been paid for in blood. Unfortunately, such a slogan could be read either way.
rikyrah
JUST IN: American Medical Association opposes GOP healthcare bill https://t.co/2NzTPFPD6Q pic.twitter.com/kTrPWBWo1X
— The Hill (@thehill) March 8, 2017
SFAW
“Why are Paul Ryan and his Republican conspirators trying to RUSH through a bill that only THEY have seen, the impact of which will likely be to INCREASE SIGNIFICANTLY THE COST OF HEALTHCARE for ANYONE who is NOT WEALTHY? What are they TRYING TO HIDE from HARD-WORKING AMERICANS?”
Lather, rinse. Repeat.
I’m sure there are wordsmiths out there who can come up with something catchier. Themes to tie in: screwing the Middle Class in order to benefit the Rich, trying to pull a fast one on the citizenry.
Ohio Mom
@SWMBO: There is selfish and there is selfish. To the extent that your efforts habilitated your kid, and he has been able to increase his level of functioning, we all have benefitted. It is a boon to society as a whole when each individual is truly at their best.
But I do understand your original impulse. At an early IEP meeting, I looked around and did some quick calculations: the school SLP and OT were both in their 50s, so 30 years professional experience each, the spec ed teacher had 15 years under her belt, and so on. When I finished counting up, it was taking almost two hundred years of combined professional experience and expertise, not to mention how many advanced degrees, just to get my dear little squirt through first grade.
rikyrah
New GOP health care plan would cut $1B disease prevention fund. https://t.co/mRoAOJOGF8
— NBC Nightly News (@NBCNightlyNews) March 8, 2017
SFAW
@Buskertype:
Don’t we at least get to see that fucking smirk wiped off his face, first?
rikyrah
China has granted preliminary approval for 38 new Trump trademarks, AP reports https://t.co/ZuKBXybwr0 pic.twitter.com/WQBQm9EP1A
— Bloomberg Politics (@bpolitics) March 8, 2017
rikyrah
Important to remember: GOP’s ACA repeal bill would cut 12% of CDC’s budget. Nightmare for pandemic preparedness. https://t.co/LRMFtBI4DV pic.twitter.com/SxOs1nbQrW
— Rachel Sachs (@RESachs) March 7, 2017
Ceci n est pas mon nym
@zhena gogolia: As a member of the demographic you’re defending, I’m not clear what you’re defending me from. What ageism? This discussion is right on target.
rikyrah
Republicans give rich investors a tax break in their Obamacare revamp https://t.co/m3bgcp1h0N pic.twitter.com/QDLDVYEwPj
— Bloomberg Politics (@bpolitics) March 8, 2017
Corner Stone
I like Sen Warren a lot but she has gotten a lot more sound-byte ish over the last few months.
Rand Careaga
I’m sixty-five, and at the spousette’s behest enrolled some while back in AARP, and in consequence receive their little newsprinty “magazine,” which appears to be aimed at my parents’ generation when they* were this age. I base this judgment on the ads, which appear aimed squarely at the auld fart get-off-my-lawn demographic (“Tired o’ them newfangled ‘lectric telephone machines with all the doodads an’ little onscreen buttons you can hardly see even with your two dollar reading spectacles? Well this here phone has great big honking buttons, and it’s just a durned phone, etc”) assumed by the copywriters to be confused, credulous, fearful and not a little addled. I admit that I do not base this conclusion on any very rigorous analysis of the publication, since I generally peruse it for only as long as it takes to transport it from the mailbox downstairs to the dedicated recycling container in the kitchen.
*I am appalled to witness some of my contemporaries, reckless, funny and imaginative in their salad days, hardening into auld fartitude themselves. A “tell,” as the young-uns might call it, is when they start romanticizing the said salad days, and particularly when they start in on the exaggerated claims regarding our exemplary deportment, temperate language, wholesome pastimes and deference to our elders. Fortunately I’m seeing most of this on social media; little so far in meatspace.
clay
“Age Tax” is great. We need a (non-evil) Frank Luntz on our side, dammit.
Also, @Kay:
This is probably because protecting SS (and Medicare) is probably the one thing that all Democrats — from the Berniest Bro to the Blue-est Dog — can all agree on. I think the ACA has a good chance of reaching that same status.
MomSense
@01jack:
I’ll tell you what happened during Maine’s brief experiment with “across state lines”. We sent our money to the insurance company across state lines and they failed to pay for our medical services on this side of the state lines.
Corner Stone
@bystander:
“…and I have Big Plans. Next week I’m traveling to Europe for a two we-..URRGGHH!! No! NO!NOOOOooo….”
Kay
How is everyone else doing handling the fact that there seems to be an international far Right movement led by….Russia?
Who predicted that? No one, right?
Capri
@The Dangerman: I think the squirrel is for comic relief. Otherwise the guy comes off as too angry.
zhena gogolia
@Ceci n est pas mon nym:
The discussion topic is fine. The epithets and the assumptions are not.
hedgehog the occasional commenter
@O. Felix Culpa: Thank you. I fall in the Old category (59) as does mr. h (62). We don’t have kids, but we have Millenial friends with kids, and Gen X/Millenial relatives, and grand-nephews, not to mention EVERYBODY ELSE. FWIW, at the Colorado Stands with Planned Parenthood rally I attended there were a good number of gray hairs (male and female). Anyone else Old remember the Gray Panthers?
/end rant/
zhena gogolia
@hedgehog the occasional commenter:
I have no children. But I worry about other people’s children. How anyone, of whatever age, who has children could vote for Trump completely stumps me. Your tax cut is more important than the future of the earth? Really?
Corner Stone
Lyin’ Ryan is doing his ZEGS propaganda on ACA repeal.
hedgehog the occasional commenter
@zhena gogolia: I know. I can’t wrap my head around it either.
The Moar You Know
@…now I try to be amused: Yep, they sent me a thing in the mail a few weeks ago, I signed up. Just turned 52.
They are the nation’s most powerful lobbying group and they are already sending out the email alerts on this. If the GOP wants this passed they better do it within the next couple of weeks, afterwards it’s going to be seat-loss time.
Corner Stone
Ooooo, Speaker Ryan just hogtied Trump to this bill. “Working hand n glove with the WH, the President and VP”
Major Major Major Major
@Corner Stone: I saw a headline that looked like trump beat him to it, saying there would be an electoral ‘bloodbath’ it the effort failed.
@Corner Stone: we need good liberal sound bites right now.
@rikyrah: but what a boon for horror and thriller writers! As if they needed more right now, it’s been an embarrassment of riches lately for them.
The Moar You Know
And yet Democrats will not and cannot win back anything until they figure this out. Jesus, this is why the AARP is getting my money. They know how to fight.
And yeah, you guys want this Ryancare bullshit defeated and buried six feet under face down? Two words: “age tax”. That’ll do it.
evodevo
@FlipYrWhig: My brother-in-law is career army – he and my sister have always been knee-jerk fiscal conservatives (but not social cons – go figure) and Fox Noise viewers who constantly decry anything that would benefit the little guy. They have ALWAYS been on the govt. teat, pay maybe $300 a YEAR and co-pays for TriCare, and consequently have NO idea what modern healthcare premiums run. When I told her I was having to pay $~700/mo for interim coverage under the state retirement system healthcare plan, when the covered hubby went on Medicare before I did, she was speechless. She had NO idea. They are clueless about costs in the real world. BUT, Obamacare is SOCIALISM!! Bugs me no end.
Kay
@Corner Stone:
Trumpcare it is, then. They’re all such cowards. Healthcare is a political minefield, which is why Democrats were the only ones who ever addressed it.
Barbara
It’s not useful to tar large groups of people. But it is true that the gap between how old and young people vote has never been wider. That’s why midterms have been such a bloodbath for Dems.
At any rate, if social theorists are correct that voting preferences are set between the ages of 20 and 30 then people between the ages of 55 and 75 today were born between 1940 and 1960 (more or less), and came of age and established voting preferences between 1960/1970 and 1980/1990. You are looking at a high proportion of law and order Nixonians and morning in America Reaganites. They were destined to vote Republican even without Fox News or Black Lives Matter or whatever else feeds white paranoia. These people are less likely to be college educated (though the percentage goes up the later they were born) and are more likely to have worked in sectors of the economy that have declined.
It is my belief that most people are looking for a narrative that intuitively explains their predicament even if it’s wrong, and that many people between the ages of 55 and 75 have adopted the narrative of seeing the decline of blue collar work and status being caused by rather than simply correlated in time with the ascent of the civil rights movement.
This is why I subscribe to my mother’s advice to stop worrying so much about old people who have shown themselves more than capable of voting for their own interests. I am frankly far more worried about protecting young people than I am about whether old people (of which I am very close to being) have to pay more for insurance. If their fear sinks this particularly nasty piece of legislation, I am all for it, but I am not going to carry their water for them. And really, what I find a little infuriating after having spent some time with the interactive KFF feature, is that yes, it’s true that old people are disadvantaged but lower income people OF ALL AGES are even more disadvantaged than old people are as a group. Old people with income over $75,000 do quite nicely under this proposal.
msdc
It’s nice to see there’s no issue that mistermix can’t turn into a Sanders/Clinton proxy war.
Btw, it was those clueless “establishment Democrats” who killed Bush’s Social Security privatization when Pelosi insisted the Democratic offer was nothing.
Kristine
@Kay: The interesting thing seems to be that wringing the last few billions of drop$ from the fossil fuel market seems to be a driver for Putin. His desire to reannex Ukraine would save him a lot of money. He has more money than he can ever spend, but he has to have it all.
Captain C
@Gin & Tonic: Nothing to do with the (white) working class. Retirees don’t work (ETA: by definition).
...now I try to be amused
@Rand Careaga:
This is so prevalent, I have to believe it’s neurological. I hope like hell it doesn’t happen to me, but I dread it will.
I would say unfortunately. People feel more free to be themselves on social media than in meatspace.
tobie
@msdc: Noticed that, too. “Age tax” is a good line all the same. Let’s shelve phrase “establishment Dems” and reserve the term establishment for the group it really belongs to: the GOP.
Major Major Major Major
@msdc: I wouldn’t say it’s a proxy primary war so much as a pointless, egregious, and insccurate insult.
Which is… better?
Kristine
@Barbara:
I’m 58, and an AARP member, and Hell, I’m worried about everybody. I have friends in their 20s, 30s and beyond with chronic health conditions, sick and disabled children, a simple inability to pay more than they currently are for insurance. And yes, I am worried about Ryan wrecking Medicare.
There’s a lot to worry about.
SFAW
@zhena gogolia:
No, but Hillary’s e-mails were.
Kay
Sherrod Brown has a brother named…Charlie Brown (not kidding!) and he’s starting to campaign for Sherrod.
So Brown will be one of the main targets in ’18. I’m glad they’re ready.
Captain C
@The Moar You Know:
FTFY
kd bart
Almost 54 and still haven’t joined.
Gin & Tonic
@Barbara:
This assertion is not borne out by the data.
Major Major Major Major
@Captain C: but playing politics makes you like history’s greatest monsters, Barack Obama and Bill Clinton!
SFAW
@Major Major Major Major:
So mistermix loses points for style. Have there been ads from DNC, DSCC, DCCC, or any other C that have been as blunt (and I hope effective) as the AARP ad? [That’s a serious question — I don’t watch TV, don’t do Facebook or other social media, so a Dem-sponsored ad (or 10) may be out there, and I wouldn’t know. ]
But if there IS nothing from the Dems — what are they waiting for?
satby
@amk: uh, don’t always assume that.
@zhena gogolia: I think it’s meant to be humorous and on that it works. I also (as a bona fide member of the group) don’t actually mind “olds” as a shorthand for the group. Beats “elderly”. What I find offensive are the sweeping assumptions about older people as a block. A significant percentage are liberal and vote accordingly, but to hear some people talk it’s like the older demo completely elected Trump and the Republicans by themselves. That shame can be spread across all ages, whether by affirmative votes for of absence of meaningful votes against.
Captain Goto
@Rand Careaga: I want to take this comment out for a free coffee at McDonalds. I’m twelve years past the enrollment age, but it’s hearing things like this that has me refusing to confirm my official status by taking the AARP plunge.
…dead thread, I know…
lgerard
@Corner Stone:
I’ve always used the argument that buying insurance across state lines is like solving the housing problem in (insert large city) by buying houses in (insert crappy red state)
cintibud
@Kay: I’m worried about Kasich Kay. He can pull off the “maverick” shtick due to his public disagreements with Trump yet hasn’t had to prove it with a congressional vote. He will be as useless as a maverick as McCain
amk
@satby:
pewresearch
Major Major Major Major
@SFAW: if there had been an ad by the Dem establishment mistermix would be the first to slam them for using establishment consultants and running tv ads. It’s more ‘he is always unhelpful’ than ‘he loses points for style’.
dr. bloor
@SFAW:
Never interrupt an opponent when he’s shooting himself in the foot.
The CBO score is coming. Be patient.
satby
@Barbara: the idea that there are swaths of older people with incomes over $75k is fascinating to me, as even the well off olds of my acquaintance have nowhere near 1/2 that income even in a two income household.
Captain C
@Major Major Major Major: Worse than Trump!!!
Captain C
@lgerard: Kind of like a mad libs: “San Francisco” and “Wyoming,” please.
satby
@amk: which actually supports my point that
since almost 1/2 is a significant percentage.
SFAW
@Major Major Major Major:
Yeah, yeah, whatever.
So, no ads yet?
@dr. bloor:
If only it were that simple. But I expect there is some percentage of non-Shitgibbonistas out there who are getting the full-Broder treatment, and an in-your-face ad might alert them to how bad the Republican DeathCare bill is.
But if not, I’m sure the electorate will make their usual highly-informed choice.
jonas
What Republicans seem to refuse to acknowledge is that millions of voters pulled the lever for Trump thinking one of two things: “All that stuff about repealing Obamacare is classic Trump bluster — he wouldn’t *really* take our insurance. Plus, maybe I can get a better job working on border wall construction!” or “I’m so excited that Trump has promised to replace lame Obamacare with something that is more affordable, with lower deductibles, wide network options, and great coverage. It’s gonna be awesome!”
This plan basically takes people’s insurance and tells them to go fuck themselves. Even people with employer-provided insurance may lose their coverage under this plan and be forced onto individual exchanges that will no longer exist because of the death spiral.
Going forward, this needs to be labelled Trumpcare 24/7 on every media outlet on the planet. It’s going to be a catastrophe.
Major Major Major Major
@SFAW: I thought the progressive woke line was that ads were a pointless waste of our hard earned donations.
Like you, I have no idea if there are ads because I’m mostly out of the market for these ads. Maybe you could google it.
evodevo
@Rand Careaga: OMG yes … all the nostalgia “I bet you don’t remember what this is” Mayberry crap….. yes I remember those days, and also remember that we had segregation; no effective contraception; people our age – who now go in for stents and hip implants – just DIED at the age of 60 or 70 ; thousands were badly injured or died in car crashes every year (metal dashboards;no seatbelts/airbags); nuclear holocaust a REAL possibility; poisoned environment – thanks, corporate thugs; etc. etc. etc.
No thanks, I’ll even take TrumpWorld over those days….
dr. bloor
@satby: Don’t forget in this particular context, “older” refers chiefly to the 60-64 demographic, i.e., people who are just about to retire and in many instances earning peak incomes. After that they enter Medicare land.
dr. bloor
@SFAW:
You might be right, but that’s the most interesting thing about this. No one seems to be doing the hurrdurr “on the other hand” to keep discussion alive on this turd of a bill. Everybody is slamming it.
Barbara
@Gin & Tonic: Gosh, it must be so nice to state assertions as fact without any data whatsoever.
It can be hard to tease trends out of data, but in 2008, people between 18 and 29 voted for Obama by a margin of +34. Going all the way back to 1980, there is no group that gave any candidate a greater margin than this. Those who were over 65 voted for McCain by a margin of +8. In 2012, the margin for 18-29 was +23 for Obama; the margin for those over 65 was 12+ for Romney.
These are huge differences that dwarf prior elections. Much is explained by race, but it’s hard not to see this as a big difference.
The other trend that is overlooked is how Democratic leaning people born before 1928 were. As they have died, the old people coming after them are much less liberal, or inclined to vote Democratic, for whatever reason. It could be Depression era politics, or the fading of the Democratic Party in the South, or both.
In 1980, those between 18 and 30 voted evenly for Carter and Reagan. Those over 30 voted +14 for Reagan.
In 1988, those between 18 and 30 voted +6 for Bush. Those over 30 voted in a range of +8 to +16 for Bush. (Those over 60 — born before 1928 were among the closest, voting only +2 for Bush).
In 1992, those between 18 and 24 voted +13 for Clinton, between 25 and 29 were +5. Those between 30 and 64 were +2 for Clinton. Those over 65 — born before 1928 — were +11 for Clinton.
And so on.
ETA: Link with data source. https://ropercenter.cornell.edu/polls/us-elections/how-groups-voted/
jonas
@dr. bloor:
I thought Ryan made sure the CBO is now stacked with partisan Republican lackeys who have orders to basically make whatever shit up they have to to show that all tax cuts lower the deficit or something.
zach
The BAT Tax ad is also brilliant – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23SXAYWZHc8 – and Democrats could have EASILY run a near identical version of it against Trump (and everyone else supporting quasi-tariffs) in 2016.
zach
My $10 says this is pulled pretty quickly and replaced with a bill that simply repeals the Obamacare taxes, defunds Planned Parenthood (or maybe gives states the option to choose to do so), repeals all Obamacare regulations not related to coverage, and has some sequester-like mechanism where Obamacare funding (subsidies and Medicaid expansion) is automatically decreased in X years unless a replacement is passed.
Dunno if that satisfies the Byrd rule, but if it doesn’t, the GOP will just get rid of the Byrd rule, change reconciliation rules or whatever it takes to do it. Would easily get a majority in both houses.
Jonny Scrum-half
That’s a pretty weird commercial.
One part I don’t understand is that he mentions $3000/year and then says that it means $18,000/year.
Barbara
@satby: Of course not — on average, not many individuals earn that amount of money. My point is that income is more determinative of who benefits under this proposal than age, but readily agree that those who are both old and low income are screwed more than any other single group. And I would say, simply, that whether or not you agree with the degree of difference, requiring older people to pay more is based on the logic that older people receive more health care services. The provisions that hurt people with lower income are adopted without regard to any resource utilization or consideration of their need for greater help. They are simply punitive. Older people currently pay more — this proposal would make them pay even more, but what really makes that hurt is that the subsidies for those who need to most help will essentially vanish.
Mary
@…now I try to be amused: Anybody can join AARP at any age. And membership gets you some sweet discounts on air travel.
Shana
@…now I try to be amused: Sorry if someone else has already said this, but I think the cost to join AARP is only $16 a year.
zach
@Jonny Scrum-half:
$3000/year MORE than Obamacare for a TOTAL of $18,000/year.
Obamacare allows 3:1 ratio of most:least expensive age-based premiums. Trumpcare allows 5:1 ratio. This is what the tree-trunk graph shows. It’s unclear how this gets you to the numbers they give, since 18,000 * (3/5) = 10,800 … which is not 3,000 less than 18,000.
Obamacare subsidizes the olds up to 12,068/yr. Trumpcare gives 4,000/year. If anything, the ad wildly understates the possible cost difference after subtracting government subsidies.
The 3,000 number seems roughly accurate for old people wealthy enough to get no Obamacare subsidies but not so wealthy as to lose Trumpcare subsidies.
zach
@Barbara:
And of course, after replacing a large chunk of income taxes with some kind of sales tax (or, in reality, not bothering to replace it at all), the next GOP priority is raising the eligibility age for pension and medical benefits.
Grung_e_Gene
Republicans wanted to privatise Social Security to stave off the looming recession for a few more years. By a massive influx of capital into the rapacious hands of Wall Street.
hovercraft
@jonas:
If so, he’s more incompetent than I thought.
Gingrich Calls for Killing CBO So Trump Can Cook the Books
nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/01/gingrich-calls-for-kil…
Jan 17, 2017 … The Congressional Budget Office is simply incompatible with the Trump era. President-elect Trump won as an entrepreneurial change agent …
The Congressional Budget Office just destroyed Trump’s budget …
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-congressional-budget-office-ju...
Dec 9, 2016 … The good news is that the green eye-shades and number-crunchers at the Congressional Budget Office have just produced a fantastic checklist …
After Obamacare report, Republicans want to kill the CBO. Again.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2017/1/17/1621637/-After-Obamacare-re...
Jan 17, 2017 … The truth, it is said, will set you free. Unless, that is, you are a Republican and the issue is the Congressional Budget Office (CBO). Republicans …
Now the problem here may simply be that there is no way to make GOP proposals look good with actual math, but I think that even with them controlling the director, the only true way to make their shit look good is to abolish the agency. If they had it stacked they would have allowed them to score it prior to showing us and voting on it.
West of the Rockies (been a while)
@O. Felix Culpa:
Ditto. I’m 55 but have a 15-year-old daughter. I want her to be healthy, to have lots of opportunities in a clean world. And, yeah, I kind of hope to live a lot more years, and good, affordable healthcare is part of the equation.
SFAW
@Major Major Major Major:
Not being woke, I have no idea.
Or not. But thanks for that exceedingly helpful suggestion.
lgerard
@hovercraft:
Newt did manage to get The Office of Technology Assessment closed in the mid-nineties, because why would anyone in Congress need to understand emerging technologies? By the mid-nineties everything had already been invented.
Kay
@Grung_e_Gene:
I think so too. I also think the bankruptcy reform bill during that same period was an attempt to limit the losses on a crash they knew was coming.
TenguPhule
@Corner Stone: Wrapped inside of a anthrax enigma around a mustard gas gordian knot.
TenguPhule
@jonas:
It says something that not even magic asterisks can make GOPfailcare look anything other then a giant blackhole of doom for insurance.
West of the Rockies (been a while)
@Josie:
I know people want to express themselves quickly, concisely, but reducing a group of people to one aspect often comes across as mean-spirited: “the olds, the blacks/whites/browns, millenials, boomers, etc.”
I’m sure I’ve done it before. I intend to be more aware. My older sister used to complain about older drivers, calling them “whiteheads.” My parents expressed their displeasure, being white haired themselves. Well, they’re gone and my sister is now 61.
Yep, we all hope to get there but are not a monolithic group.
Rand Careaga
@…now I try to be amused:
I feel that tidal pull myself (as I tell friends, “It’s true that I harbor an Inner Republican, but I don’t allow the bastard to vote”), but I have known individuals in their eighties and nineties who have contrived not to succumb to it, so I permit myself some hope on that score. One difference I notice between myself and my parents, both born in the 1920s, is that while I probably feel about as estranged from much of popular culture as they did when I was a teenager, I don’t resent the young for having different tastes in music, apparel and personal adornment. It probably helps that I leave no hostages to fortune, which permits me to regard the fashions and foibles of my nephews and nieces with a kind of detached amusement, and also not to take it to heart when in my presence they in turn exchange glances of affectionate contempt.
Grung_e_Gene
@Kay: Then they could have laid the blame on Barack. Of course the right wing media blamed Barack for everything W(orst PITUS ever) did anyway
ruckus
@Corner Stone:
The olds may not be a great segment, but they could be. We aren’t all conservative assholes, some of us actually think that all citizens have rights and that even non citizens do not deserve to be fucked, just because of a legal distinction. Some of us actually understand that a strong system to give healthcare, dignity and respect to the olds will be doing the same for everyone.
Miss Bianca
@satby: I’m 53, and I have describe myself as “an Old” to Da Yout. A). because I feel pretty sure that’s what they’re thinking, so why not own it? and B). because the older I get the more I appreciate the Puritan habit of venerating the elders among them. A habit our youth-obsessed culture has fallen out of. Maybe it’s no wonder so many elderly people ossify into cranky, cantankerous, fear-driven sods – despite the pandering of Fox News etc, despite the AARP, they know they’re considered useless and in the way, not respected and looked up to, and they resent it – and live down to societal expectations.
(Hmmm…maybe I have to start describing myself as “an elder”? But I don’t feel like I’m wise or accomplished – or old – enough to deserve that title yet).
J R in WV
@Corner Stone:
And that’s the way to make retired Democratic activists into allies of you… whatever it is that you identify as! “…not a true ally.”
IMO you should procure an old rusty but still running chainsaw and go somewhere private and FUCK YOURSELF with that rusty farm implement!!
What an ass this anonymous jerk is – I don’t trust older Democrats he says, no true ally. If I had a urinary opportunity to extinguish the fire in your pants, I would walk away as your genetic demise would boost the local IQ average considerably.
Is putting down “the Olds” as terrible as venting truly racist tendencies? If it was, would Corner Stone get banned? Because I think it is, and he should be. Never a real contribution, just attacking people who could be allies, except “IMO they are not a true ally.”
You are a hate-full jerk, and I hope you get the fate you have earned with that hate.
Corner Stone
@J R in WV: Geez, Gramps. Get a grip.
Barbara
@Miss Bianca: Well, I sometimes feel like I am in a foreign country when I am in a group comprised of a lot of people who are mostly under the age of 30. However, for the most part, I have decided that it’s a country where I genuinely like the natives living there, however out of place I sometimes feel.
Tim in SF
At risk of starting a logomachy, I do not think we should call the AHCA “Trumpcare”, I think we should call it “Republicare.”
“Trumpcare” associates the AHCA with one person: Trump.
“Republicare” associates the AHCA with the entire Republican party. And that’s fair: the GOP wrote it, the GOP will vote on it in the House, the GOP will vote on it in the Senate, and in the unlikely event it should make it through those two bodies, the GOP’s occupant in the White House will sign it.
GOP, GOP, GOP. Not Trump.
Republicare.