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You are here: Home / Politics / An Unexamined Scandal / Thursday Morning Open Thread: Some Dare Call It Treason

Thursday Morning Open Thread: Some Dare Call It Treason

by Anne Laurie|  March 23, 20176:27 am| 124 Comments

This post is in: An Unexamined Scandal, Dolt 45, Foreign Affairs, Open Threads, Republican Venality, Trump Crime Cartel, Decline and Fall

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FBI uncovering evidence of treason. There is no other word for it.https://t.co/JLY7KZfQIY

— Richard W. Painter (@RWPUSA) March 23, 2017

White House Ethics Lawyer for George W. Bush. https://t.co/DjCBqrZzUr

— Jeet Heer (@HeerJeet) March 23, 2017

As perceived by the ex-CIA, #NeverTrump candidate in 2016:

Manafort made millions subverting democracy in Europe for Putin. Then, Trump hired him as Putin worked to do the same in America for Trump.

— Evan McMullin (@Evan_McMullin) March 22, 2017

This leaves Donald Trump in a tremendously vulnerable position. Republican leaders have a choice: cover for Trump or protect the Republic. https://t.co/JPy80vIRcH

— Evan McMullin (@Evan_McMullin) March 22, 2017

There’s an old political story about LBJ deciding not to run for reelection once the major news media started reporting unvarnished details about the ongoing war in Vietnam: “If I’ve lost Cronkite, I’ve lost Middle America.” Trump has only been in office for two months, but he’s already lost at least two Very Serious Media Voices. Thomas Friedman, aka ‘the Moustache of Understanding’:

… The last time our country faced such a cancer on the presidency, the Republican Party’s leadership stood up and put country before party to get to the truth. But today’s G.O.P. is a pale imitation of that party. With a few exceptions, it has declared moral bankruptcy and abdicated its responsibility to draw any red lines for President Trump…

If you say and do nothing when the nation’s leader smears his predecessor — and then maintains his fantasy as fact — not only will he never have the credibility to call on any other country to uphold the highest standards for rule of law, democracy and human rights, but neither will all of you. We will become a lesser country and the world a more dangerous place.

There is a metric ton of ish happening right now, but this is pretty big. https://t.co/6QwB4EvbzL

— Adam Jentleson (@AJentleson) March 22, 2017

Friedman’s fellow NYTimesman Nick Kristof:

The greatest political scandal in American history was not Aaron Burr’s shooting of Alexander Hamilton, and perhaps wasn’t even Watergate. Rather it may have been Richard Nixon’s secret efforts in 1968 to sabotage a U.S. diplomatic effort to end the Vietnam War.

Nixon’s initiative, long rumored but confirmed only a few months ago, was meant to improve his election chances that year. After Nixon won, the war dragged on and cost thousands of additional American and Vietnamese lives; it’s hard to see his behavior as anything but treason.

Now the F.B.I. confirms that we have had an investigation underway for eight months into whether another presidential campaign colluded with a foreign power so as to win an election. To me, that, too, would amount to treason…

In the past, as when foreign funds made their way into Bill Clinton’s 1996 re-election campaign, Republicans showed intense interest in foreign interference in the political process. So it’s sad to see some Republicans (I mean you, Devin Nunes!) trying to hijack today’s House investigation to make it about leaks.

Really? Our country was attacked by Russia, and you’re obsessed with leaks? Do you honestly think that the culprit in Watergate wasn’t Nixon but the famed leaker Deep Throat? Republicans should replace Nunes as head of the House Intelligence Committee; he can’t simultaneously be Trump’s advocate and his investigator.

The fundamental question now isn’t about Trump’s lies, or intelligence leaks, or inadvertent collection of Trump communications. Rather, the crucial question is as monumental as it is simple: Was there treason?

We don’t know yet what unfolded, and raw intelligence is often wrong. But the issue cries out for a careful, public and bipartisan investigation by an independent commission.

“There’s a smell of treason in the air,” Douglas Brinkley, the historian, told The Washington Post. He’s right, and we must dispel that stench.

"What in the hell are we doing?" @JoeBiden says of Trump administration "romance with Putin" pic.twitter.com/mhAv9owy7h

— Emily Ngo (@epngo) March 22, 2017

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Reader Interactions

124Comments

  1. 1.

    Van Buren

    March 23, 2017 at 6:36 am

    Seems like our only hope is for the media to persuade Real America that Something Must Be Done.
    I think we’re fucked.

  2. 2.

    bystander

    March 23, 2017 at 6:37 am

    Evan McMullin:

    Republican leaders have a choice: cover for Trump or protect the Republic.

    How about the choice McMullin faces? Stay a repub or refuse to be in confederacy with traitors?

  3. 3.

    rikyrah

    March 23, 2017 at 6:37 am

    Good Morning, Everyone???

  4. 4.

    bystander

    March 23, 2017 at 6:40 am

    Anybody else get the feeling Tillerson is working with some sense of urgency? And the motivation is not whirled peas.

    ETA Morning, all!

  5. 5.

    SiubhanDuinne

    March 23, 2017 at 6:43 am

    @rikyrah:

    Good morning right backatcha, rikyrah ?

  6. 6.

    Ceci n est pas mon nym

    March 23, 2017 at 6:44 am

    @bystander: Are you hinting that he’s trying to prevent world war or foment it?

  7. 7.

    Baud

    March 23, 2017 at 6:45 am

    @rikyrah: Good morning.

    @bystander: Good question. He’s a good talker, but he’s got no following in GOP land.

  8. 8.

    trnc

    March 23, 2017 at 6:51 am

    Sorry, I started reading the Friedman article but had to stop when he appealed to Tillerson because he “ran a large company.” But I probably wouldn’t have made it much further anyway, because who the hell is Friedman to lecture anyone?

  9. 9.

    MattF

    March 23, 2017 at 6:53 am

    Well, according to Spicer, the title ‘campaign manager’ was merely honorary.

  10. 10.

    Mustang Bobby

    March 23, 2017 at 6:55 am

    @rikyrah: And also to you.

    There’s an old political story about LBJ deciding not to run for reelection once the major news media started reporting unvarnished details about the ongoing war in Vietnam: “If I’ve lost Cronkite, I’ve lost Middle America.”

    If Trump loses Fox News, he’s fucked. But that’s not gonna happen, and even if they abandon him, Trump won’t believe it.

  11. 11.

    NotMax

    March 23, 2017 at 6:57 am

    What have we become?

    A 15-year-old Chicago girl was apparently sexually assaulted by five or six men or boys on Facebook Live, and none of the roughly 40 people who watched the live video reported the attack to police, authorities said.
    [snip]
    Investigators know the number of viewers because the count was posted with the video.… Source

    And what sort of barbarously twisted mentality would motivate someone to post it?

    (And yes, am old enough to remember Kitty Genovese, from which people apparently learned nada.)

  12. 12.

    Jeffro

    March 23, 2017 at 6:57 am

    @bystander: @Baud:

    If he steps outside the tent then he’s just another one of us not-real Americans… personally I think it’s great to see him standing up and speaking so directly about what is going on, and what needs to be done.

    It would be great to see some of our up-and-coming national Democratic figures use this point in time to speak directly to the American people about what has happened here, and the need to press Congress for action.

    Take John McCain up on his offer… join forces with any sane Republicans that might be left (like McMullin)… let’s get going here , the IC can’t do all the work .

    Senators Harris, Booker, Gillibrand: it is time to summon your inner Reid or Obama and get a move on.

  13. 13.

    NotMax

    March 23, 2017 at 6:58 am

    @trnc

    Ask again in 6 months.

    ;)

  14. 14.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    March 23, 2017 at 6:59 am

    @MattF: Hey Spicer, don’t piss on my boots and tell me it’s raining.

  15. 15.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    March 23, 2017 at 7:01 am

    @NotMax: Heh.

  16. 16.

    TriassicSands

    March 23, 2017 at 7:03 am

    Republican leaders have a choice: cover for Trump or protect the Republic.

    For a Modern Republican that isn’t even a moderately difficult choice. Screw the Republic.

  17. 17.

    BlueDWarrior

    March 23, 2017 at 7:03 am

    @NotMax: The bystander effect gets even worse on the internet, because there isn’t even the ‘psychic’ pressure you feel from watching something happen and knowing there are other people in your physical presence also watching it.

    I am not sure if we are so much seeing people becoming more depraved; more that that we are finally learning what the actual breadth of our depravity is. So many things were hidden because they couldn’t happen in a way we could record it, and now we can.

    Another chance to use the old saw, “We have met the enemy, and he is us.”

  18. 18.

    SFAW

    March 23, 2017 at 7:08 am

    @NotMax:

    Ask again in 6 months.

    FU!

  19. 19.

    Woodrowfan

    March 23, 2017 at 7:08 am

    @NotMax: The Kitty Genovese story turns out to have been exaggerated and full of errors. Wikipedia has a decent summary with some good links…

    …that does not change the horror of this story though. A couple years ago or so I was witness to a serious multi-car accident. I sat on some grass nearby waiting my turn to talk to police and I remember a car full of young people pointing and laughing as they passed the accident. It still gives me the chills as they seemed to think it was one of the funniest things they’d ever seen…

  20. 20.

    Baud

    March 23, 2017 at 7:08 am

    @Jeffro:

    he’s just another one of us not-real Americans…

    Good. I’m tired of pretending we are second class citizens.

  21. 21.

    SFAW

    March 23, 2017 at 7:09 am

    @TriassicSands:

    Republican leaders have a choice: cover for Trump or protect the Republic.
    For a Modern Republican that isn’t even a moderately difficult choice. Screw the Republic.

    Yeah, they read that choice as “Protect the RepublicAN”

  22. 22.

    bystander

    March 23, 2017 at 7:11 am

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym: I think Tillerson has an oil deal he wants in concrete before the s**t hits the fan.

  23. 23.

    SFAW

    March 23, 2017 at 7:11 am

    @BlueDWarrior:

    Another chance to use the old saw, “We have met the enemy, and he is us.”

    Were Walt Kelly still alive, he might have retired Pogo by this time, out of frustration, or a desire to keep his sanity.

    Either that, or he would have been on fire, because it’s a target-rich environment.

  24. 24.

    debbie

    March 23, 2017 at 7:16 am

    Nunes must lose the chairmanship. I’ve liked what Schiff has had to say, but he needs to say more. He needs to use that T-word for what Nunes has done.

  25. 25.

    Brachiator

    March 23, 2017 at 7:19 am

    Trump has only been in office for two months, but he’s already lost at least two Very Serious Media Voices.

    The major difference is that there ain’t no Conkrite today. Trump could lose all the Beltway pundits, Fox News and FaceBook. His ego does not depend on them, and ultimately he is a creature of his own id.

    The Congressional Republicans will continue to support him because he continues to be useful to them. And right now, the Republicans also believe that gerrymandering and the vast wealth of the Koch Brothers, the Mercers and the rest of the plutocracy makes it difficult for anyone to dislodge them.

    The Vast Right Wing Conspiracy watched LBJ and Nixon stumble, and think that they learned to avoid their mistakes.

    Trump can be toppled and the GOP can be stopped. It’s just going to be harder.

  26. 26.

    Lalophobia

    March 23, 2017 at 7:19 am

    @BlueDWarrior: Yeah. I mean we once had various monstrosities intrinsic to our potential as a people enshrined in law and protections everyone deserves not (and still not) enshrined in law. We know from history, if given the chance, what will thrive and spread and choke out the fruits and flowers in our garden. The trick is to never let up on the weeding.

  27. 27.

    Mustang Bobby

    March 23, 2017 at 7:20 am

    Either Nunes is really stupid or he did it deliberately just to blow up the investigation knowing that the Very Serious People would spend the next few news cycles on the process and not the story itself.

    I’d go with the stupid option.

  28. 28.

    OzarkHillbilly

    March 23, 2017 at 7:21 am

    @bystander: That is all he is doing, setting up deals. He sure as shit isn’t doing any diplomacy.

  29. 29.

    Baud

    March 23, 2017 at 7:23 am

    @OzarkHillbilly: That’s Ivanka’s job.

  30. 30.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    March 23, 2017 at 7:25 am

    @Brachiator: Trump and his merry band of zannies are using the Nixon playbook and they think the only problem was that Nixon got caught; the problem is that Nixon, given all his faults, was a smart and skilled politician. Trump is neither.

  31. 31.

    debbie

    March 23, 2017 at 7:27 am

    @?BillinGlendaleCA:

    If you follow Richard Nixon on Twitter, he gets pretty upset whenever anyone compares Trump to him. There are principles, after all.

  32. 32.

    OzarkHillbilly

    March 23, 2017 at 7:31 am

    @Mustang Bobby:

    I’d go with the stupid option.

    That’s the safe bet.

  33. 33.

    Iowa Old Lady

    March 23, 2017 at 7:32 am

    Trump is crowing that Nunes’s info proves he was right about Obama wiretapping him. I am filled with rage.

  34. 34.

    Baud

    March 23, 2017 at 7:33 am

    What I wouldn’t give for the lesser evil right now.

  35. 35.

    Baud

    March 23, 2017 at 7:34 am

    @Iowa Old Lady: Good. That lie has only hurt Trump.

  36. 36.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    March 23, 2017 at 7:34 am

    @debbie: You do realize that that’s Dick Nixon, President Nixon died in 1994(that’s what his headstone said when I saw it last Saturday).

  37. 37.

    comrade scotts agenda of rage

    March 23, 2017 at 7:36 am

    @Brachiator:

    The major difference is that there ain’t no Conkrite today. Trump could lose all the Beltway pundits, Fox News and FaceBook. His ego does not depend on them, and ultimately he is a creature of his own id. The Congressional Republicans will continue to support him because he continues to be useful to them. And right now, the Republicans also believe that gerrymandering and the vast wealth of the Koch Brothers, the Mercers and the rest of the plutocracy makes it difficult for anyone to dislodge them.

    Exactly. Comparing the media landscape then and now is apples and oranges.

    Congressional Repubs will only abandon Twitler should his numbers *among Republicans* tank. They stuck by Dubya thru thick and thin…until his numbers started tanking among Republicans post-Katrina. They don’t give a shit about how he polls among anybody else because, as you say, gerrymandering and black money are ultimately what keeps them in power.

  38. 38.

    OzarkHillbilly

    March 23, 2017 at 7:37 am

    @Baud: More than enough deals for everybody.

  39. 39.

    SFAW

    March 23, 2017 at 7:38 am

    @?BillinGlendaleCA:

    President Nixon died in 1994(that’s what his headstone said when I saw it last Saturday).

    That’s what they WANT you to believe. He’s actually running things from the same island where Elvis is staying.

    You probably thought Bobby Ewing was actually dead in Season whatever.
    Amateur

  40. 40.

    bystander

    March 23, 2017 at 7:38 am

    @Iowa Old Lady: Tthe “journalist” yesterday who asked Trump if he felt vindicated has to be one of the smarmiest in the whole corps.

  41. 41.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    March 23, 2017 at 7:39 am

    @SFAW: Hey, there was a picture of Nixon and Elvis in the Library(it’s the most popular item in the gift shop).

  42. 42.

    MattF

    March 23, 2017 at 7:40 am

    @Mustang Bobby: Nunes is a Trump loyalist. The Boss needs to be kept informed of disloyal behavior. End of explanation.

  43. 43.

    Hal

    March 23, 2017 at 7:40 am

    Trump has only been in office for two months…

    Trump has only been in office for two months…

    Trump has only been in office for two months…

  44. 44.

    Brachiator

    March 23, 2017 at 7:42 am

    @?BillinGlendaleCA:

    Trump and his merry band of zannies are using the Nixon playbook and they think the only problem was that Nixon got caught; the problem is that Nixon, given all his faults, was a smart and skilled politician. Trump is neither.

    Nixon appeared before the American people and said, “I am not a crook.” Trump has not divested himself of his companies, installs his family as White House operatives as they continue to work for his business interests and has the Republicans in Congress working hard to provide cover.

    Trump doesn’t need the Nixon playbook. Nor does he have to be smart. And right now, he still has the dopes who make up his base strongly behind him.

  45. 45.

    debbie

    March 23, 2017 at 7:43 am

    @?BillinGlendaleCA:

    Seriously? Of course I do. But if you follow his feed, you’ll see he perfectly embodies Nixon.

  46. 46.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    March 23, 2017 at 7:44 am

    @MattF: Goldwater was Nixon’s friend, when he went to the White House and told Tricky Dick that the jig was up, Nixon resigned.

    I always wonder how a young lawyer like John Dean got the job as White House counsel, he was a friend and classmate of Barry Goldwater Jr.(my Congresscritter at the time).

  47. 47.

    Vhh

    March 23, 2017 at 7:44 am

    @?BillinGlendaleCA: Rember Stone worked for Nixon.

  48. 48.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    March 23, 2017 at 7:47 am

    @Brachiator: They have lots of video displays of Nixon saying stuff at the Nixon Library, not once did I see that clip.

    Dolt 45 has a base, his true base, of about 19% of the country. These are people that if he told them the sky was pink, they could go outside and see the sky is blue, and still say the sky was pink.

  49. 49.

    Vhh

    March 23, 2017 at 7:47 am

    @?BillinGlendaleCA: Goldwater said he personally loathed Nixon as the most devious man he had ever known. From whst I have read, Goldwater was straight up, not given to shiftiness.

  50. 50.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    March 23, 2017 at 7:48 am

    @Vhh: Goldwater owed Nixon for his support in 1964, personal feelings aside.

  51. 51.

    OzarkHillbilly

    March 23, 2017 at 7:50 am

    @MattF: Like Mustang Bobby said: Stupid.

  52. 52.

    Tokyokie

    March 23, 2017 at 7:50 am

    @bystander: Well, McMullin has another choice: He could remain a Republican and decide to run against that piece of crap Chaffetz. (McMullin lives in his district.) I’d be OK with that.

  53. 53.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    March 23, 2017 at 7:50 am

    @Vhh: Stone has a tat of Nixon on his back.

  54. 54.

    Mustang Bobby

    March 23, 2017 at 7:52 am

    @?BillinGlendaleCA: And Trump has him on his knees…

  55. 55.

    rikyrah

    March 23, 2017 at 7:54 am

    @bystander:
    He is the Secretary of Exxon.
    He doesn’t care about anything else.

  56. 56.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    March 23, 2017 at 7:55 am

    @Mustang Bobby: There’s some imagery I didn’t need before bed.

  57. 57.

    Immanentize

    March 23, 2017 at 7:58 am

    @Vhh: Roger Stone also has a tattoo of Nixon’s face on his back. True.

  58. 58.

    Baud

    March 23, 2017 at 7:58 am

    @Tokyokie: That would be productive. I bet he would lose, but who knows?

  59. 59.

    Immanentize

    March 23, 2017 at 8:00 am

    @?BillinGlendaleCA: faster than me!

  60. 60.

    Snarki, child of Loki

    March 23, 2017 at 8:04 am

    Congratulations, Republicans!

    You just elected a traitor to America. Feeling proud?

    I bet you are!

  61. 61.

    gvg

    March 23, 2017 at 8:05 am

    @?BillinGlendaleCA: The internet Dick Nixon is a kind of satire by someone trying to demonstrate how much the republican party and officials have changed for the worse. I think it’s someone who actually knows the real history to do a pretty good job of staying in character but there is one flaw. Nixon acted within the political pressures of the time. It was political skill that kept him from doing some things, we have no way of saying what he would chose to do in this different time. Some things have gotten worse or we wouldn’t be here with Russia all over our politics. Other things are no longer permitted. Seriously in the 60’s I think this many Russian connections would have caused a real war to start even with the threat of nuclear. Of course both sides politicians wouldn’t have gotten to this point in the first place.

  62. 62.

    JPL

    March 23, 2017 at 8:07 am

    @Hal: He’s never going away is he?

  63. 63.

    Mike in DC

    March 23, 2017 at 8:08 am

    When we get word that one or more individuals under investigation are now “cooperating fully with the authorities”, look for Twitler to enter Permanent Freakout Mode.

  64. 64.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    March 23, 2017 at 8:09 am

    @gvg: I’m aware of internet traditions and was old enough to follow the Nixon presidency in real time.

  65. 65.

    Chyron HR

    March 23, 2017 at 8:09 am

    @Mike in DC:

    look for Twitler to enter Permanent Freakout Mode.

    How would that differ from his usual behavior?

  66. 66.

    Phylllis

    March 23, 2017 at 8:10 am

    @?BillinGlendaleCA: You can get a t-shirt at the Archives with that photo. My husband snagged one.

  67. 67.

    What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?

    March 23, 2017 at 8:11 am

    @Jeffro: I’ve been expecting McCain to put on his mavericky maverickson performance again because he’s a savant when it comes to knowing when to jump ship and lurch to the “principled” center and away from his own party. Trump is toast if McCain has bailed…he knew when the jig was up for W. If he’s bailing on Trump, nothing is going to save the cheeto Benito.

  68. 68.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    March 23, 2017 at 8:12 am

    @Chyron HR: Good question.

  69. 69.

    hueyplong

    March 23, 2017 at 8:13 am

    @Mike in DC:
    “When we get word that one or more individuals under investigation are now “cooperating fully with the authorities”, look for Twitler to enter Permanent Freakout Mode.”

    As long as we’re taking requests, mine is that such a story appears today (while the health care matter is getting ready to come to a vote) and the story names Stone as the “rat” who is cooperating.

  70. 70.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    March 23, 2017 at 8:13 am

    @What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?: Remember who’s Senate seat McCain holds, Goldwater’s.

  71. 71.

    SFAW

    March 23, 2017 at 8:14 am

    @Chyron HR:

    How would that differ from his usual behavior?

    You’re about 19 days early for that question.

    מה נשתנה

  72. 72.

    satby

    March 23, 2017 at 8:16 am

    @rikyrah: Good morning!

    I’m not counting on it, but it seems like the word treason is being used by more of the kind of people the village finds creditable, not just us dirty hippies in blogs. That’s a tiny sliver of hope, because if Trump is taken out by that, even Pence is damaged goods and the whole party will be seen by low info voters as tarnished.

  73. 73.

    Kay

    March 23, 2017 at 8:16 am

    I went to a school committee meeting last night. It’s the night where we invite county commissioners and city council so many of them came. They’re all Republicans here and the loudest county commissioner is a moron Trumpster who in my memory has never had a job. He lives on renting pieces of farmland he inherited.

    Our committee leader is a very nice man who is the CFO of the second largest employer. He’s Republican. He opened the meeting with his customary budget slides but halfway thru told the group that the local economy is very good. The local economy is very good. He can’t hire enough people to run as many lines as he would like to run and they are getting applicants from Kentucky. His employees are Teamsters and they’re paid a decent wage. The Kentucky hires can’t find rental housing and we have a lot of rental housing- it’s occupied. It really just doesn’t get better than this here. This has been true for a while- a couple of years. I laughed because he’s really earnest and he wondered aloud why Donald Trump keeps saying “no one” is working and he will “put them back to work”. He said “everyone is working- this just isn’t true”

    I was glad he said it but after he said it I realized a lot of the Trumpsters I meet aren’t really involved in the local economy in that direct way where they see ebbs and flows immediately. They are people who don’t work for various reasons- disabled, retired, or own some kind of income producing asset that doesn’t require actual work. The most committed Trumpster on city council is the wife of a police officer and she’s a stay at home mom. She’s always saying there is “no work” or “no one” is working and since this is so obviously untrue I used to wonder about it but I realize maybe she really doesn’t know.

  74. 74.

    SFAW

    March 23, 2017 at 8:17 am

    @?BillinGlendaleCA:

    I’m aware of internet traditions and was old enough to follow the Nixon presidency in real time.

    You don’t look that old.

  75. 75.

    Baud

    March 23, 2017 at 8:19 am

    @Kay: Or doesn’t care.

  76. 76.

    SFAW

    March 23, 2017 at 8:20 am

    @Kay:

    maybe she really doesn’t know.

    Isn’t that kind of a baseline assumption with Shitgibbonistas?

  77. 77.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    March 23, 2017 at 8:21 am

    @SFAW: My 9th birthday was the day after Nixon’s first inaugural.

  78. 78.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    March 23, 2017 at 8:22 am

    @Baud:
    @SFAW: Trump likes the un-educated.

  79. 79.

    Nora

    March 23, 2017 at 8:23 am

    I noticed that the New York Times on its front page, instead of noting that Nunes probably violated the law and almost certainly acted unethically in going to Trump with the information he used to “vindicate” Trump, went with the headline that he came up with an alternate explanation that supports Trump’s position. I guess the Times doesn’t think it’s anything out of the ordinary if the head of the committee investigating possible treason takes information to the person being investigated.

  80. 80.

    ?BillinGlendaleCA

    March 23, 2017 at 8:24 am

    @Nora: The New York Times is garbage.

  81. 81.

    Baud

    March 23, 2017 at 8:25 am

    @Nora: What @?BillinGlendaleCA said.

  82. 82.

    low-tech cyclist

    March 23, 2017 at 8:27 am

    The last time our country faced such a cancer on the presidency, the Republican Party’s leadership stood up and put country before party to get to the truth.

    Even in July 1974, only 7 of the 17 Republicans on the House Judiciary Committee were willing to vote for impeachment, and it took guts for them to do so. And those 17 Republicans were the ones who’d spent the most time face-to-face with the evidence and knew how bad it really was.

    Goldwater was only willing to tell Nixon that the jig was up after the ‘smoking gun’ tape was released that showed that Nixon personally had been acting to cover up the money trail to the Watergate burglary just six days after the break-in, telling the FBI not to pursue it because it involved national security. At that point there was no argument: Richard Nixon would be found guilty of obstruction of justice, if he were to go on trial.

    So the Republicans weren’t all that devoted to the truth (or even Law And Order, if it concerned one of their own) back then – don’t fool yourself. But today’s GOP is still unimaginably worse, from the perspective of 1974, than it was then.

    @?BillinGlendaleCA: Got ya beat; I was a 14 year old Youth For Nixon volunteer in 1968.

  83. 83.

    Shalimar

    March 23, 2017 at 8:34 am

    @bystander: IIRC, the trillion dollar pipeline that Trump was paid in Rosneft stock to facilitate also involved Exxon, so yeah, there seems to be some urgency for Tillerson to get all of this oil diplomacy done before Trump explodes and it is no longer do-able.

  84. 84.

    Baud

    March 23, 2017 at 8:36 am

    @Shalimar: I really can’t understand why any U.S. company would invest millions or billions of dollars into Russia now, knowing that unstable everything is given the uncertainty of the investigation into Trump’s Russian ties. There is a real risk of capital getting stranded there if things go south quickly.

  85. 85.

    OzarkHillbilly

    March 23, 2017 at 8:37 am

    @low-tech cyclist:

    I was a 14 year old Youth For Nixon volunteer in 1968.

    AHA! The culprit unmasks himself!

  86. 86.

    Chris

    March 23, 2017 at 8:40 am

    @What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?:

    I’ve been expecting McCain to spend the Trump years doing his Mavericky Maverickson act for the cameras while not actually voting in any way substantially different from any other Republican, like he did in the Bush years. Asking that Congress (his own organization) be taken out of the picture and responsibility assigned to some other body seems consistent with that.

  87. 87.

    BlueDWarrior

    March 23, 2017 at 8:40 am

    @Baud: Like a lot of people unfortunately, the people at the New York Times just cannot admit that an entire political party has either (A) been completely taken over by a foreign government, (B) completely gone insane, or (C) both A and B

  88. 88.

    Mustang Bobby

    March 23, 2017 at 8:41 am

    @OzarkHillbilly: I was the “X” in the Nixon parade in Perrysburg, Ohio, in 1960 with my Cub Scout troop, but I later found out my parents voted for JFK. I was pissed… “You let me make a fool of myself for that crook?”

  89. 89.

    satby

    March 23, 2017 at 8:41 am

    @low-tech cyclist: I did some door knocking for Humphrey, I was the same age.

  90. 90.

    OzarkHillbilly

    March 23, 2017 at 8:41 am

    @Baud: I can’t understand why anyone would invest in Russia knowing what I know of how Putin treats his *enemies*.

    **What constitutes a Putin enemy changes daily.

  91. 91.

    Baud

    March 23, 2017 at 8:43 am

    @OzarkHillbilly: Has Putin ever harmed a Western capitalist? Most of the enemies that come to mind are domestic dissidents.

  92. 92.

    Mike R

    March 23, 2017 at 8:44 am

    During Nixon’s early days of 1969, after he and Kissinger were preparing to end the war I was preparing for my second deployment to Vietnam. Fortunately someone found me an opportunity to go on a NATO training exercise for several months instead of heading west.

  93. 93.

    OzarkHillbilly

    March 23, 2017 at 8:44 am

    @Mustang Bobby: Heh. Have you forgiven them yet?

  94. 94.

    Baud

    March 23, 2017 at 8:45 am

    @BlueDWarrior: Certain groups of people don’t want to admit the Democrats’ current moral superiority for purely parochial reasons.

  95. 95.

    Kay

    March 23, 2017 at 8:48 am

    @Nora:

    I don’t know but I sometimes feel like there’s an effort by “the institutions” to prop up other institutions. It’s comforting, right? The President isn’t a complete delusional liar, he just used the wrong formulation. They also bend over backwards to allow Trump more room to fuck up because Trump is unqualified. I myself think this is a huge mistake. Trump is unqualified but unless they want more unqualified people they should stop lowering the bar for him. Donald Trump is in way over his head – the consequences of that should be reported with no special modifiers on how he’s “not a politician”. He is a politician. That he went straight to the top is not my fault but the truth is he’s there so he should be judged ON THE JOB, not a lesser version of the job.

  96. 96.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    March 23, 2017 at 8:49 am

    @?BillinGlendaleCA:

    Trump and his merry band of zannies are using the Nixon playbook and they think the only problem was that Nixon got caught; the problem is that Nixon, given all his faults, was a smart and skilled politician. Trump is neither.

    Except Nixon didn’t get got on his treason with the commies, Trump has.

  97. 97.

    Tenar Arha

    March 23, 2017 at 8:52 am

    @NotMax: This is terrible, but please don’t use Kitty Genovese as a comparison. It is really not a good one.

    How the False Story of Kitty Genovese’s Murder Went Viral

  98. 98.

    OzarkHillbilly

    March 23, 2017 at 8:55 am

    @Baud: He kills his domestic dissidents. He just impoverishes his foreign partners who turn traitor on him.(maybe). Seriously, would you do a deal with with a psychopath who kills his enemies whether they are a threat to him or not? Denis Voronenkov: former Russian MP who fled to Ukraine shot dead in Kiev

  99. 99.

    Baud

    March 23, 2017 at 8:58 am

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    Seriously, would you do a deal with with a psychopath who kills his enemies whether they are a threat to him or not?

    Hard to say. I comment here regularly, so maybe I would take the next step.

  100. 100.

    Kay

    March 23, 2017 at 8:58 am

    I’m assuming they are going to pass this health care bill in the House. The moderates who could break away don’t have enough power and the Freedom Caucus are the fucking Tea Party. The people here who are the biggest Trumpsters were also the most insane Tea Partiers. They’re excessive people. I bet they connect with Trump on “belligerence” and “stupidly repeating untruths over and over”.

  101. 101.

    Mustang Bobby

    March 23, 2017 at 9:00 am

    @OzarkHillbilly: Oh, yeah. By ’64 they were out of the closet and they haven’t looked back. One of Mom’s requirements when they were looking for a retirement community was that it was populated with a fair amount of liberals. Even though they settled in Cincinnati, the heartbeat of Ohio Republicanism (Tafts still live there), they have found their fair share.

  102. 102.

    OzarkHillbilly

    March 23, 2017 at 9:02 am

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques: Russians does not equal Commies. Putin is a lot of things, nearly all of them horrible, but a communist is not one of them.

  103. 103.

    Chris

    March 23, 2017 at 9:03 am

    @Kay:

    Conservatism thrives on obliviousness. It’s why a non-trivial number of its adherents do wise up if reality ever slaps them in the face – like those guys we were discussing here a couple years ago who refused to get on Obamacare, then got seriously sick, started a GoFundMe page where they got a lot of criticism for refusing to go on the ACA, and later said things that indicated they’d smartened up.

    Or for a simpler example, the people who change their minds about gay marriage when their precious little son/daughter comes out of the closet.

  104. 104.

    JPL

    March 23, 2017 at 9:03 am

    @Kay: The pro-life party.
    I agree that it’s going to pass, and wouldn’t be surprised if it passed the Senate also.

  105. 105.

    OzarkHillbilly

    March 23, 2017 at 9:04 am

    @Baud: Hmmmmmmm….. You have a point.

  106. 106.

    Chris

    March 23, 2017 at 9:05 am

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    True.

    Russia is not my field of expertise, but I’ve heard that Putin’s regime thrives on a sort of generic nostalgia for the past that doesn’t exactly specify what is meant by “the past.” (Make Russia Great Again!) And that a lot of supporters actually do look back to the Soviet Union as a time of better days, but that among his wealthier supporters you have people who even wax nostalgic for the days of the Czars.

  107. 107.

    O. Felix Culpa

    March 23, 2017 at 9:10 am

    @satby:

    I did some door knocking for Humphrey,

    So did I! In deep red John Birch territory. We lost. Then my 16-year-old self campaigned for George McGovern. You know how that ended. I became pariah in my little town (apparently I was a person of dubious morals as indicated by my sketchy political leanings) and escaped at the first opportunity.

  108. 108.

    PJ

    March 23, 2017 at 9:10 am

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques: He didn’t need the Communists to facilitate his treason, he could do it all by himself.

  109. 109.

    PaulW

    March 23, 2017 at 9:11 am

    Had to blog again about how our current woes are so Shakespearean in its despair.

  110. 110.

    MomSense

    March 23, 2017 at 9:12 am

    What in the hell are we doing?

    I feel ya Joe. I really do.

  111. 111.

    Captain C

    March 23, 2017 at 9:12 am

    @BlueDWarrior: In the case of the Times, doing so would mean they’d have to admit that they’ve been aiding and abetting this trend since the mid-’90s.

  112. 112.

    PJ

    March 23, 2017 at 9:14 am

    @Chris: Or the people who believe that drugs are only used by criminals, or minorities (practically the same thing with them), who change their mind about prison reform, or reform of drug laws, when its their innocent child who becomes addicted.

  113. 113.

    cmorenc

    March 23, 2017 at 9:22 am

    @What Have the Romans Ever Done for Us?:

    @Jeffro: I’ve been expecting McCain to put on his mavericky maverickson performance again because he’s a savant when it comes to knowing when to jump ship and lurch to the “principled” center and away from his own party. Trump is toast if McCain has bailed…he knew when the jig was up for W. If he’s bailing on Trump, nothing is going to save the cheeto Benito.

    McCain only still has that kind of influential standing among the traditional beltway media and GOP establishment – who no longer control the GOP. Notice that Trump attracted a sufficient portion of the GOP base to win the nomination and election despite Trump’s sneeringly contemptuous insult to McCain’s war hero status as a seven-year captive of the N. Vietnamese. If McCain still had the kind of status and influence you ascribe to him within the GOP, Trump’s asshole-boorish comments about McCain would have sunk his candidacy immediately.

  114. 114.

    Chris

    March 23, 2017 at 9:29 am

    @cmorenc:

    I don’t think the point is that McCain is a trendsetter, more of an indicator, though I don’t know if it’s true.

  115. 115.

    gene108

    March 23, 2017 at 9:34 am

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    Seriously, would you do a deal with with a psychopath who kills his enemies whether they are a threat to him or not?

    They are taking notes. In their black little hearts, they wish they had the power of Putin, here in America to crush dissent and be loved for hoarding absolute power.

  116. 116.

    lollipopguild

    March 23, 2017 at 9:40 am

    @Chris: The folks who run russia have dreams of russia being great again without having to do any heavy lifting. .Russia has an economy about the size of Italy? If russia was run in the right way they -in theory- should have an economy that would allow them to be a major player for all of the right reasons. This is not going to happen because it is so much easier to steal almost everything than it is to build a healthy economy. Russia is a third world country with nukes.

  117. 117.

    bemused

    March 23, 2017 at 9:45 am

    @Kay:

    I love your accounts of meetings and events in your area. Now I want to know how the rest of the meeting went.

  118. 118.

    Ronnie Pudding

    March 23, 2017 at 9:49 am

    LOL to the notion that losing Freidman and Kristof is anything like losing Cronkite. I’m sorry, but few people care. Trump is still super popular among conservatives.

  119. 119.

    Elizabelle

    March 23, 2017 at 10:02 am

    @Ronnie Pudding: conservatives are not reachable. They’re in fantasy land.

    But middle of the roaders are.

    I do agree that Friedman is nothing close to Cronkite. Kristof is a predictably liberal columnist.

    I think Rupert Murdoch and Rush Limbaugh should hang for what they have done to this country.

  120. 120.

    Kathleen

    March 23, 2017 at 10:05 am

    @Mustang Bobby: Cincy went blue in ’08, 12 and 16.

  121. 121.

    satby

    March 23, 2017 at 10:13 am

    @O. Felix Culpa: birds of a feather.

  122. 122.

    Ceci n est pas mon nym

    March 23, 2017 at 10:27 am

    @gene108: Indeed. Let’s not forget that in the story of Tianenmen Square (sp?) Trump came out on the side of the tanks!

  123. 123.

    Kay

    March 23, 2017 at 10:48 am

    @bemused:

    Well, after that he had to explain that we have an 11 million dollar “surplus” so the city council start grumbling because we’re always asking everyone for money but then he has to explain that public school budgets aren’t like their personal budgets and the surplus is a good thing and doesn’t mean “cut taxes!” It means they can weather the uncertainty of the state budget which doesn’t come in until September. I wish I had his patience but I no longer do. I don’t feel like he should have to explain to adults that a public school budget is not the same as their personal budget and if you have an 11 million dollar surplus that means that it’s well-managed, not “waste, fraud and abuse”. They can’t run at a deficit, ever, it’s in and out, real money, so they keep quite a bit back.

    We need higher expectations – they have to try harder. No more explanations. This class is moving on :)

  124. 124.

    Brachiator

    March 23, 2017 at 11:46 am

    @?BillinGlendaleCA:

    They have lots of video displays of Nixon saying stuff at the Nixon Library, not once did I see that clip.

    You’re joking, right?

    ‘Cause the “I am not a crook” clip is all over the place. Like here.

    Wait. Might make sense that the Nixon Library skipped it.

    Dolt 45 has a base, his true base, of about 19% of the country. These are people that if he told them the sky was pink, they could go outside and see the sky is blue, and still say the sky was pink.

    Trump and the GOP are going to work this base for all they can. Also, the conservative Establishment is backing Trump hard. It’s tighter than when Nixon was the LA Times’ best boy.

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