Here’s a former FBI agent and current senior fellow at the Foreign Policy Research Institute, Clinton Watts, saying he doesn’t know what the US stance on Russia is under Trump and isn’t confident the U.S. government has his back if Russian agents come after him for testifying:
Frmr FBI agent says he doesn't know what USA stance is on Putin under Trump; concerned about safety after testifying pic.twitter.com/IKLB5z8jYh
— Lauren Werner (@LaurenWern) March 30, 2017
That’s kind of astonishing. Before that, Mr. Watts answered a question from Senator Lankford (R-OK): “Why did the Russians think they could get away with [meddling in the U.S. election] this time?” I can’t find embeddable video of the exchange, but you can see it here on CNN. Watts’ answer in a word was: Trump.
Watts said Trump and Manafort repeated fake news from Russia, which we knew, but it’s…surreal to hear this said in a U.S. Senate hearing. He informed the committee that Russian outlets are still pushing conspiracy theories at Trump on social media even now. He also said that until people (Trump!) learn to distinguish fact from fiction, we’re in deep shit (paraphrasing). Wowser!
schrodingers_cat
But her emails.
Jeff
Nothing to see here. Please move along.
Humboldtblue
It gets repeated here nearly every day but with Republicans it’s always party before country. I still doubt whether the party will suffer any serious fallout from Trump even as it becomes increasingly clear that he’s bought and paid for by the Rooskies.
This will make for great TV but watch the national media spin it as a Democratic overreach.
SiubhanDuinne
Is there still a Witness Protection Program operational in this country, or has
TrumpKushner done away with it in the name of “government efficiency”?sherparick
But for most Republicans the response is “Trump is our man – Defend the tribe!” and for the 300 or so super rich donors who really run the Republican Party, the response is “Who cares, as long as Trump will sign the tax cuts so we can keep all the profits from our rent seeking cons and reckless pollution!! Time to Party like its 1929!”
D58826
@schrodingers_cat: and Chelsea!!!!!
Seriously problem is are there any top GOOPers that have not been compromised. Remove Der Fuhrer and you get Pence. While he is sane, he could not have been wallowing in that cesspool and not been aware of some of what is going on. Yet he has kept his mouth shut. Same with ZEGS and Turtle.
JPL
Watts also said it’s important to follow the money, but you have to follow the trail of dead Russians also. One has to wonder if Flynn and Manafort increased their personal security staff.
gratuitous
I remember when Republicans in general and conservatives in particular were ultra-sensitive to any citizens they deemed to be too close to the Russkies, taking their orders from the Kremlin. Now they have a President and his closest non-familial adviser apparently deep in the pocket of Uncle Vlad in Moscow. Not a one of them seems in the least bit concerned, except to the extent that other people keep pointing it out.
Major Major Major Major
I’m always amazed that there are senators I’ve never heard of, but there always are.
ruemara
They don’t. I keep telling people to stop thinking Republicans are interested in anything other than power. If it kills agents & soldiers, but makes them a dollar, so be it. Dead children? Fine. Dead brown children? More for our white race. Destroy America’s sovereignty & make us a client state of Russia? A-fucking-OK. They would destroy the planet for 2 cents, 1 cent if it meant they killed all the darkies, the gays, the freaks, dissenters & uppity womens first.
geg6
@JPL:
Manafort has at least been seen in public recently. But I don’t think he’s all that smart or perhaps he is, at least, arrogant enough to think he can get away with anything. Flynn, who I truly think is mentally ill but not stupid, has to be well aware of the things that happen to those who get sideways with the Kremlin. And you’ll notice that he’s been the invisible man ever since he left the administration. If he hasn’t gotten himself into a safe house somewhere, then the FBI has.
Humboldtblue
@ruemara:
If this can be of even a little cheer, then cheer on. Sam Bee brings us some positive parliamentary news.
Mike in DC
The polling on should Trump resign if his team colluded was nice. Better still would be: should he go to prison? Or be deported to Russia?
Betty Cracker
@geg6: Flynn’s even nuttier son was ripping Twitler for attacking the Freedumb Caucus this A.M. on Twitter.
trollhattan
@geg6:
Having a few (maybe tens) millions stashed away probably gives one a sense of invulnerability, but shouldn’t if you also have billionaires after your ass.
Pogonip
Adam, are you there? I know this is not your main field, but can you direct me to a good analysis of what national and international effects might be caused by failure to raise the debt ceiling timely?
schrodingers_cat
@Mike in DC: Siberian gulag?
Gravenstone
@D58826:
Most likely if we can show Russian compromise throughout the Trump admin and Republican congressional leadership, then we end up with President Hatch. Nearly as beholden to the god squad (albeit a different flavor) as Pence, but not as twisted a would-be Machiavellian as Ryan.
Chris
@Humboldtblue:
To elaborate, I think to them, the country belongs to the party, or at least to the people of their party, and every other one of us is either an outsider or a race traitor and in any case an unwanted interloper who isn’t fit to be counted among those deciding things for the country.
Since none of us have a right to this country, anything they need to do in order to keep us down and out and the country in the right hands is justified.
artem1s
Little Marco is desperately trying to keep everyone from paying attention to that Putin behind the 2016 election attacks, while simultaneously whinging about his campaign staff being hacked. Never mind he didn’t mention those attacks on his campaign during the election. But now that the spotlight is on the GOP activity and collusion with the hackers, he is suddenly very concerned. Shitholes want to look very serious and caring about Russian hacking but pretending that their hacks during the election weren’t targeted to aid one candidate and interfere with another. Always party before country; me before anyone else.
Gravenstone
@Betty Cracker: Loved Donch’s attempt to start a two front war with both the HFC and Dems. Sure, alienate both groups, either of which you need in combination with the remainder of the Republican caucus in order to actual pass any sort of legislation. Let us know how that works out for you, big fella.
dm
@Humboldtblue: It’s maybe not “Party before Country” so much. Now that Russia is merely kleptocratic and not Communist, Putin’s interests and the Republican Party view of the national interest are aligned: Putin is an ally in the clash of civilizations. Putin is a friend to billionaires, and for Republicans, billionaire interests are the national interest.
max
he doesn’t know what the US stance on Russia is under Trump
Trump ‘likes’ Putin. Same as Fox News. They used to ‘hate’ Putin, but he’s the far enemy, not the near enemy: Democrats and people who would raise taxes on rich people.
isn’t confident the U.S. government has his back if Russian agents come after him for testifying:
The Russians wouldn’t go after him – why would they? There’s a long Russian tradition of going after ex-pat Russians, but assassinations of minor foreign players is so rare as to be non-existent (except sometimes, during the 30’s and 40’s). Getting into Louise Mensch territory here. (Unless he means hacking, in which case, shit they probably already have.)
max
[‘Why are manly men conservatives so prone to hysteria?’]
Death Panel Truck
@ruemara:
And step over their mothers’ dead bodies if there were a five-dollar bill on the other side.
? Martin
@Pogonip: Two effects:
1) At some point the Treasury runs out of cash to pay off bonds that come due, resulting in a default, and which would normally present a lawsuit. However, in the US, the majority of US bonds are held by the US government – mostly by the Social Security administration. If a bond came due, and the Treasury couldn’t pay the SSA, then the SSA can’t send you your check – or at least your whole check, because the SSA can only hold a limited amount of cash. First effects are that Americans will stop receiving payment for things they are entitled to, and possibly employees will stop being paid and have to be furloughed in places like the VA.
2) US treasuries are backed by the ‘full faith and credit of the US’. Effectively, everyone trusts us to pay, so we are a safe investment. The moment that stops being true two things will happen:
A) The cost for the US to borrow money will go up. That is, taxpayers will need to put in more money to cover the interest on our debt, and get nothing in return.
B) The interest of foreign governments to hold dollars will decline. Right now the US commands enormous economic power because most international financial transactions take place in dollars (they need to take place in some currency), which means there is a huge demand for dollars, which makes our debt cheap. Not only does this also increase the cost to borrow money by reducing the number of people willing to loan to us, but it also threatens some other currency coming in to replace us – either the Euro or maybe even the Yuan.
I think the last item is not imminent, but if there is a repeating pattern of this, it will happen. Trump doesn’t understand the value of trust. Trust is all the US government has to offer, and once trust is lost, it’s incredibly expensive to get back. You protect it at all costs. Instead, we’re burning it as quickly as we can.
? Martin
@Gravenstone: Or if we can hold out until 2018 and win the House, then the #3 in the line of succession will be a Dem.
? Martin
@max:
Because they are insecure cowards.
Adam L Silverman
@Betty Cracker: Here’s what you were looking for:
cmorenc
That statement could be validly generalized to include about half the electorate (or more in some areas).
The Moar You Know
@SiubhanDuinne: Yes, but with the FBI and this admin riddled with people passing info along to Russia, you gotta think that there’s little point. Someone’s going to be able to find this guy, and then he’ll commit suicide by throwing himself out a hotel room window. Four times. Onto swords accidentally scattered on the sidewalk.
Corner Stone
So…looks like the WH sold Nunes down the river and just confirmed collusion between WH and Nunes to sink the Russia investigation in the House.
germy
Tom LoBianco has been live tweeting. Deeply troubling stuff.
https://twitter.com/tomlobianco
lollipopguild
@sherparick: Deep down they want to party like it’s 1850.
SenyorDave
@Mike in DC: If his team colluded with Russia to win the election he is a traitor. Because Russia wouldn’t do it for free. And Nunes is a traitor irregardless of whether Trump is guilty, because Nunes is actively trying to prevent an investigation. As is Paul Ryan. These people can be bought off with money and/or power.
rikyrah
@ruemara:
TELL.THAT.TRUTH.
Immanentize
Yeah But!! His name is “Clinton!!!!!”
Hobbes83
@? Martin: This. That’s why the GOP loves their daddies so much.
Gin & Tonic
@Corner Stone: Nunes isn’t very bright, is he?
lollipopguild
@The Moar You Know: Back in the early 90’s when Russia was getting rid of the commies one of their generals committed suicide by shooting himself in the head 7 times.
PJ
@? Martin: While I think it is vital to get rid of Russian influence on our politics as soon as possible, I would be pretty pleased to see President Pelosi. (Apologies for the alliteration.)
West of the Rockies (been a while)
@Jeff:
Exactly! Both sides and all. Also, too, Hillary is shrill and a big, ol’ meanie.
Humboldtblue
@Chris: @dm:
What they said, too.
rikyrah
@Pogonip:
I’m not Adam, but I always understood, for money people, worldwide, the safest instrument to buy was the United States Treasury Bill. Might not be glamorous, or sexy, but it’s always been SAFE AND DEPENDABLE.
Once THAT is taken away….
then, we open up to allowing other currencies to step into the vacuum.
Chris
@? Martin:
Maclaren (I know, I know) had a whole spiel here a few years ago about how, for all the complaints that are done about corruption and corporate abuse in this country, it’s still perceived as a safe enough place for foreigners to invest in and to treat its currency as the world’s reserve – especially compared with more corrupt and unreliable economies like Russia and China.
Which was true at the time, but ever since we’ve elected a guy who gives every sign of wanting to run America like a Russian oligarch-czar, I’ve been wondering if it’ll still apply by the time he’s done.
Stan
Make Hillary Speaker. Impeach Trump & Pence.
Hello President Hilz
Mike J
@Betty Cracker:
Major Major Major Major
@ruemara:
Vonnegut suggested carving into the walls of the grand canyon for the flying-saucer people to see,
SgrAstar
@D58826: Why does anyone think Pence is sane? His fundamentalist views are prima facie evidence of a disturbed mind. We’re fuked either way. ✊
Paul in KY
@ruemara: Speak it, ruemara!
different-church-lady
@Corner Stone: Wouldn’t there be, like, side effects to that strategy?
Gin & Tonic
@Stan: I’m pretty high, but even I’m not that high.
ruemara
@rikyrah: When people think I’m being hysterical, I tell them to google Rosewood. The tradition of tearing down any good thing built up by blacks, up to and now including America, is in full flower. These folks don’t know their own history.
Chris
@cmorenc:
Absolutely. And that’s the issue. Trump isn’t the problem, the party, that’s spent the last fifty years transforming into this, is – and that at the most basic level means the voters. We live in a country where half the population has gone Maoists-smelting-iron-in-their-backyards level insane, and that half of the population overlaps almost perfectly with GOP voting patterns. Of course, everyone’s loath to admit this, because it’s so uncivil and partisan. (Including liberals, most of whom hate the thought of labeling and writing off people based on political affiliation).
? Martin
@Corner Stone:
I don’t see how this helps them long term though. You want that investigation going forward but quietly undermined from the inside. But if you blow it up publicly like this, then you risk a new investigating group forming that you no longer can influence. Seems like a desperate move to me.
Gravenstone
@? Martin: That would be the ideal. And given the slow nature of CI investigations (as Adam keeps reinforcing), that may be the practical timeline.
clay
“Interesting” like a jumbo jet liner and a 50-car freight train simultaneously crashing into the farmhouse while Farmer Brown tries to light the stove and the tectonic plates are shifting. Yeah, that’s “interesting”.
https://thecomicninja.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/calvin-and-hobbes-playtime-large.jpg
Chris
@lollipopguild:
Or 1861 – complete with appeals to hostile European powers to please come and save us from our DamYankee oppressors.
Aleta
“Had Podesta had Two Factor Authentication, the last month of the campaign would have been quite different.”
(Dr. T Rid)
Had no idea Podesta didn’t do that ….
Pogonip
Thank you, Martin and Rikyrah!
This is a good site because it has so many readers. Someone can usually give an informed answer to a question.
Mike J
@Corner Stone:
If by “White House” you mean McMaster who wanted to get rid of Flynn’s people on the NSC, you’re right. If you mean Trump, probably not.
Gravenstone
@germy: Who needs “handlers” when you can just post something online when Twitler is reading?
Chris
@clay:
I understood that reference.
Even before seeing the link.
clay
@Death Panel Truck:
I mean…. She’s already dead…
Brachiator
Holy shirt! That’s pretty plain.
I’ve heard local radio hosts here in Los Angeles suggest that the entire Russian thing is phony, like birtherism (they ironically forget the Trump connection here). Meanwhile, Fox News and other faux news agencies are working hard to present Trump as the victim, who was spied on at the direct order of that dastardly Obama.
Instead of bread and circuses, Trump and the Republicans are going to have to hustle to get the wall and tax cuts out there, so that Trump supporters won’t catch on to the grift. The wall does nothing and the tax cuts will go to the wealthy, but, once again quoting that great philosopher WC Fields, “you can’t smarten up a chump.”
ETA: hat tip to “The Good Place” for the forkin’ profanity alternatives.
Corner Stone
@Gin & Tonic: Nunes has to be balls deep in some seriously dirty shit. I maintain they showed Nunes he was being discussed by FI.
Corner Stone
@different-church-lady: They don’t do strategy. And they’re dirty AF. And dumber than dirt.
Sooo…yeah.
Betty Cracker
@ruemara: I grew up down the road from that place. Nothing there now but a roadside plaque.
West of the Rockies (been a while)
@? Martin:
Perhaps Nunes did not respond as anticipated? Instead of steady, professional espionage, they got pants wetting and squealing?
Corner Stone
@? Martin:
Helps *who* ?
Barbara
@Corner Stone: Yes, something like that. Nunes either saw his own name or recognized a conversation in which he was one of the barely veiled participants. As TPM noted, in any other context, his conduct over the last few weeks would make people wonder if he was having a psychological breakdown. This feels like fear and panic.
hovercraft
@Major Major Major Major:
Lankford is someone everyone should know, he makes his predicessor Tom “Dr. No” Coburn seem like a reasonable person. I think he’s stayed below the radar because of other nutters like Cruz and Cotton and Rubio and Paul, all have presidential ambitions. That’s not to say he doesn’t but he’s been overshadowed.
What The Oklahoma Congressman Who Just Announced A Senate Campaign Thinks About LGBT Americans
germy
Things are happening so fast now. And more and more folks are quoting dialogue from The Sun Also Rises
? Martin
@Chris: Right. The US is pretty resilient because it is so decentralized. It’s good that California and Texas can pull the economy in their own directions. It’s good that big corporations and industries can as well. I mean, we don’t want them hurting citizens, but at the same time all of these things like Facebook and Google which generate all kinds of problems such as fake news and ad targeting based on individual data collection and so on are also incredibly good for the US economy – even when the Feds can’t see where they will lead.
Most of those features are more durable than a president, but the concerns coming from around the world aren’t really about Trump – they understand his time in office is limited. Rather their concerns are that voters chose Trump. They’re questioning the judgement of the US electorate, not of Trump personally.
That they can see states like California and companies like Apple, Amazon, Google and Microsoft are going to keep working on climate issues, thereby blunting some of the potential damage that Trump can do, is important because it reinforces that resiliency.
Corner Stone
Hate Ivanka Trump. So.Very.Much.
Major Major Major Major
@Aleta: to be fair to Podesta he DID forward the phishing email to the IT guy, who… kind of suggested clicking on it.
Corner Stone
@Mike J: McMaster tried and failed to get that done. The likely suspects of who gave the intel to Nunes has been bandied about for days now. I am scepitical that McMaster or his surrogates are posing as, “The WH invites House Intel leaders to WH to view documents”.
OGLiberal
Nunes’ WH source was a dude that McMasters wanted to get rid (based on bad things he heard about the guy from folks in the intelligence community) of but was told by Bannon and Jared, “no deal”.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/30/us/politics/devin-nunes-intelligence-reports.html?_r=0
Corner Stone
@Major Major Major Major: “Shit looks legit. I say YOLO.”
Betty Cracker
@SgrAstar: Pence and ilk are basically the Taliban in suits and sans the beards.
@Corner Stone: I long to see the whole bunch (minor child aside) hauled off in manacles. Grifting, presumptuous scum, the entire lot.
? Martin
@Corner Stone: The WH. If you are worried about an investigation, you really want to control it, not destroy it and risk another replacing it. They’ve destroyed it here, and now they have to worry about the Senate adding an attempt to impede a Congressional investigation to their inquiry. It stops an immediate threat, but seems to make the long-term one worse.
mai naem mobile
@Major Major Major Major: Lankford Isa young guy who replaced asshole Tom Coburn.
Aleta
@Major Major Major Major: And is it true that IT guy never checked his opinion with anyone else?
les
@max:
‘Cause I think there’s a corollary since 9/11 to the “not all conservatives are stupid, but most stupid people are conservative.” Not all conservatives are cowards, but most cowards are conservative. I don’t know how many of these stories I heard coming up to election, but Trump voter after Trump voter whined about being scared to bejesus of terrorists. Some pistol packin’ momma in Iowa scared to let her daughter wait for the school bus. Is there a terrorist out there who even knows where or what Iowa is? Has the bint ever even been in a state where there was a terrorist attack? Stories like that from all over. Idiots.
OGLiberal
Ted Yoho was on MSNBC and said he was OK with Nunes sharing/getting intel from the WH and not sharing with his fellow committee members because, according to Yoho, he (Nunes) “works for the president”.
jl
@? Martin: I think the last item is imminent, if the US actually defaults on anything that is owed to anyone outside the US government, even once, even a short delay. I think financial analysts agree that one accidental delay, that was quite short duration, in payments that occurred a few years ago resulted in an noticeable increase in interest rate on US securities. People expect to be paid on time, and with very good reason, when you consider how US gov securities are used in various financial markets around the world. Somebody doesn’t get paid, they may not be able to pay, often on big transactions that are due that very same day.
Edit: sorry I think I mixed up your last and second to last point. But, in a real sense the two points are directly related. A decline in interest in holding a security first appears as an increase in the interest rates. That sets officials’ hair on fires since then they start worrying about a failed auction, where some securities are not sold.
Mike J
@Corner Stone: McMaster didn’t give the info to Nunes. Cohen-Watnick, who was brought in to the WH by Flynn, did, according to the NYT story. The reason why we know is was Cohen-Watnick is probably because McMaster wants him gone.
Corner Stone
@? Martin: If Sally Yates had testified *and* they recalled Comey, Rogers or Clapper back…that’s game over. There is nothing left to undermine.
They are all guilty AF. This is down by three scores under two minutes game clock scenario, with the last time out.
Major Major Major Major
@Aleta: I dunno, if I did know I forgot. He remembers it as a routine “go ahead and reset your password” thing, not the sort of thing you get a second opinion about. His response email doesn’t say explicitly to click the link, and does include a link to the real password reset address, but could easily be read as OK’ing clicking on the phishing link.
eldorado
Martin: can you please explain how the treasury can run out of money? doesn’t it get it from the fed?
Corner Stone
@Mike J: Try and keep up.
Major Major Major Major
@eldorado: it runs out of the statuatory authorization to acquire/spend money. This is arguable but not really argued.
Chris
@les:
“The satellite is presently over… Kansas. Well, if we destroy Kansas, the world may not hear about it for years!”
– Ernst Stavro Blofeld
? Martin
@jl: Rates would go up, but I don’t think we would see a widespread pullback in buying US bonds or a wholesale currency change for important transactions. The US has two things in its favor right now:
1) There are trillions of dollars in negative yield bonds because wealthy people are so wealthy they don’t even know how to invest it any more, let alone spend it. That money has to go somewhere.
2) A higher yield makes for a more attractive investment. If you buy a 10 year bond, it won’t mature until Trump is out of office, and if you can get a better return, well…
Barbara
@les: On 9/11 a friend had employees working in the Pentagon and was desperately trying to figure out how to confirm their safety. While he was in the middle of calling people frantically, his ex-wife called and demanded that he go pick up their kids at a school way out in the suburbs to ensure their safety. Fear instills irrational thinking, including irrational thinking about risk classification.
Gin & Tonic
@Betty Cracker: Curious, did you ever read Matthiessen’s Shadow Country?
Gravenstone
@OGLiberal: Perhaps Congressman Yoho might want to dust off and re-read his copy of the Congressional oath of office? Pretty sure the allegiance is to the Constitution, not the president – let alone party.
jl
@OGLiberal:If I understand the news right, Nooness sources got outed today in the news as Trumpsters in the WH. And I just saw an item that Nooness apologized? Was that today or something he did yesterday. Hard to keep track.
Anyway, maybe Nooness’ voters are fine with him working as a Trump flunky. But, maybe not. I guess he’ll find out in the midterms. That will be fun for us and for him to watch.
Barbara
@Gravenstone: Word has it that he is already walking that particular statement back. A gaffe in the Kinsley sense . . .
Barbara
@jl: Well, if I were a politically ambitious person in Nunes’ district I would definitely try to mount a primary challenge, from any direction. Devin should be toast. Who wants a traitor representing them?
mai naem mobile
@Corner Stone: VankOliva always looks like she’s a seven year old playing dress up . The way she walks with Hubby and Daddy dressed like he way she thinks an executive should be dressed. Never has a briefcase or leather binder stuffed with papers. Think of HRC or Susan Rice or Janet Yellen. They either have briefcases with them or their entourage following right behind them with bags/binders etc.
jl
@? Martin: That is true. But the short term notes would take a hit right away. And to some extent, the short term rates drive longer term rates. I hope we don’t have to find out the details when the debt ceiling hits.
Chris
@Barbara:
I was in a school in the suburbs on 9/11, in history class. The teacher made a big show of reassuring us that there was no way we were going to be targeted, we were just a little school away from the city center and miles from any Pentagon/Twin Towers level target.
But still and all, the very first student to be sent home that day was her daughter.
jl
@Barbara: Nunez can say that he couldn’t have done anything sneaky, the sun was out.
Edit: this is Teapot Dome worthy material. Some crooked flunky back then testified that when he seemed to be talking about a bribe, he didn’t say ‘three to four thous’ he said ‘three to four cows’.
trollhattan
@Corner Stone:
So, “ISIS Time” then?
“In case of impending disaster, break glass and release the Islamic kraken.”
? Martin
@eldorado: The treasury isn’t ‘out of money’. The treasury has exceeded its ability to issue new debt. Because we run a deficit, every year we need to borrow (issue bonds) in order to get cash to pay for stuff – bombs, roads, VA doctors, golf trips to Florida. The treasury has reached the limit of how many bonds they can offer. They can’t borrow money. So long as the cashflow works out right (people paying taxes prior to April 15 may exceed expenses, allowing for everyone to get paid without having to borrow) then things are okay. This is the kind of ‘extraordinary measures’ you hear about. Basically it’s a giant accounting exercise to move money around the US ledger. But at some point they run out of tricks and they need to borrow in order to pay bills – either employees, or states, or bonds that come due. “Hello, I am the central bank of China and I have $10M in US treasuries due, please pay me my $10M.” If the treasury doesn’t have $10M, they need to borrow it (presumably the central bank of China would just buy a new note with that $10M) but they aren’t allowed to – because the debt limit wasn’t raised. Not only would China have this problem, but corporations (Apple has $200B in US govt securities), the Social Security Administration (all of our SS retirement savings are in US Treasuries), and so on. Who gets stiffed will be an interesting problem to sort through as some money is still coming in and some people can be made whole, but do you pay China and screw over retirees, or pay retirees and screw over China? Or do you tell the VA doctors to stay home, and tell vets they’re hosed, etc.
In effect, the US has maxed out the credit card and depleted checking and savings and the bank is closed, but Bruno and Martha here still expect to get paid – now.
Villago Delenda Est
@Humboldtblue: Hence, perpetually and forevermore, until we wipe them out, all of them, my nym.
Roger Moore
@SgrAstar:
Because it’s politically incorrect to describe religious belief as a mental illness.
D58826
@Death Panel Truck: a plugged nickle would do it for them
geg6
@Chris:
Let’s be real here. The Dems who do this are mainly elected or pundits, other than a few idiots on this very blog who seem to think we’re playing tiddlywinks rather than rollerball.
D58826
@Roger Moore: well ‘sane’ as in not Trump crazy. .
The Moar You Know
@jl: They’ll be more than fine with it. The Central Valley GOP is unmatched for sheer partisan viciousness by any population in the United States. The only thing he’d get voted out of office for is if it came to light he had a chance to kill a minority and didn’t take it.
sukabi
@JPL: he said that as well…follow the trail of dead Russians connected to Drumpf…
The Moar You Know
@Roger Moore: Preach that all day long, brother, I’ll be listening.
Roger Moore
@? Martin:
When has trump shown himself to be a master of strategy?
Betty Cracker
@Gin & Tonic: No. Should I?
Corner Stone
@trollhattan: “RELEASE, Barack the Islamic Shock KRAKEN!!”
They tried bringing out the Perjuring Elf to scare people about brown people murdering lily white women, and it fizzled. Does the color threat level board still exist? I hope so because if not I think people are going to start having to die in the distraction attempt.
People! If you know a young pretty blonde girl – hide them!
? Martin
@jl:
Agreed completely. The fact that the planet is awash in cash it doesn’t know what to do with means that anyone willing to pay to hold cash is in a fairly strong position – so I think it won’t be too horrible. There’s $8.6T in negative yield bonds (I’ll give you $1M today and you’ll return $990,000 to me after 5 years) which is down a bit, but is otherwise astonishing. This money isn’t just doing nothing, it’s doing less than nothing. In a rational world we’d seize those assets in the same way we would raze an abandoned property.
sherparick
@gratuitous: You forget the Prime Directive: IOKIYR!!!!
EBT
@Corner Stone: 52K net worth 50K of that is his winery that does business with putin and the bratva. No residential property or even a car note.
schrodingers_cat
@SgrAstar: @Roger Moore: Compared to T, he is sane. Low bar, and all that.
geg6
@Corner Stone:
I agree. I think I might hate her more than the Twitler.
jl
@eldorado: The Federal Reserve cannot issue new federal debt instruments. Actually, the Fed was originally designed to stabilize money markets and banks by dealing mostly with private securities. Safeguards were put in place to prevent the Fed operating mostly with US govt debt instruments. But that plan was blown away by WWI and WWII when the US issued massive amounts of debt.
Martin is right. What happens is that the US govt starts juggling accounts to pay its bills without having to issue what is officially and legally, and some economists would say is rather arbitrarily, deemed to be new debt. After all the books are juggled to death, then the feds have a choice of stopping payment to entities outside the federal government, or testing legal and constitutional theories that they would prefer not to.
sukabi
Rick Wilson has a few things to say about Nunez
Peale
@dm: Yep, if there’s competition, its that a lot of our billionaires look with envy at the wealth the autocrats and their hangers on can amass in places like Russia and China and got very jealous.
? Martin
@Roger Moore: Point completely taken. Just my continuing astonishment that our top elected officials don’t appear to have the strategic vision to win a game of checkers.
Aleta
Could someone remind these grateful committee members that they are relying on scientists and mathmeticians to describe the reality of these problems, and what it means. Modelers. Years of data collection and analysis.
Roger Moore
@Aleta:
IIRC, the IT guy garbled his response and wound up saying click it instead of don’t click it. It was that stupid.
ruemara
@Betty Cracker: And that’s the goal.
Major Major Major Major
@Roger Moore: he said “reset your password, here’s the link: google.com/etc” but didn’t explicitly say don’t click the email.
germy
@Roger Moore:
Reminds me of the famous typo:
PJ
@? Martin: Totally naive question: why don’t the people or institutions who hold all that cash invest it in a business where it might bring in a positive return (or at least a non-negative return)? And, Republicans aside (which is a big aside), why can’t the government get the people and institutions holding that cash to invest in government bonds so that the government can turn around and do things like repair and expand our infrastructure, prepare for global warming, etc.?
trollhattan
Not one to hang around and take the heat, Nunes is hightailing it to Fresno to promise All the Water Foreva to adoring farmers.
clay
@les:
I lived in Athens, GA when the attacks on September 11 occurred. Everyone was horrified and panicking, of course. Nobody knew what was going on, or if there were more attacks coming.
There was a report that an unidentified truck was parked outside of, I think, the federal courthouse. People freaked out: Was it a threat? Were we under attack?
The police investigated, and of course, it was just some dude who had parked his truck there, and he moved it, and it was fine. Any other day, no one would’ve blinked twice. And in the subsequent days, we all realized Of course we weren’t in danger! These people don’t give a crap about Athens, Georgia. Why would they?
My point isn’t to make fun of us for believing that terrorists were “just around the corner”. It was the day of the attack; no one knew anything. We panicked. My point is that eventually, logic prevailed, and we were able to move on with our lives. We didn’t WANT to live in fear, so we found a way to get over that fear.
But, for many people, the terror they felt on that day, or that they feel when they watch the news, or listen to talk radio… that terror is fully and intentionally embraced by them. They WANT the fear. They LIKE it. (Subconsciously, of course.) That fear makes them feel special, makes them feel important. “I’m important enough to be a target of a Muslim radical.” Or “I’m important enough to have my house invaded by a black thug.” Or “I’m important enough to be raped by a Mexican immigrant.”
Obviously, innocent bystanders ARE blown up, or robbed and shot, or raped by immigrants. But some populations are much more vulnerable than others, and logic tells us that it is extraordinary unlikely to happen to a small town girl in Iowa. But her fear gives her life a meaning that it wouldn’t have otherwise — she’s no longer just a small town girl in Iowa… She’s SOMEBODY.
geg6
@Chris:
Well, in these people’s defense, no one would think a plane would crash in Somerset, West Bumfucked, PA either. I was at a conference at our main campus in central PA that day and, before the news people got the stories straight, we heard it was Pittsburgh and jumped into our cars and raced home to make sure all our loved ones were okay because we couldn’t get through on our cell phones. But it turned out that Flight 93 crashed in the middle of nowhere 72 miles east of the city. But we didn’t know it at the time.
Gin & Tonic
@Betty Cracker: Given what little I’ve come to know of your interests, I’d recommend it. It is quite long, though. But it represents a slice of Florida life and history that was fascinating even to this Yankee.
PJ
@Major Major Major Major: It was worse than that. Apparently he meant to type that it was an “illegitimate email”, instead of “legitimate email”, but then he followed it up with the instruction that Podesta should change his password immediately, which was what the phishing email instructed him to do as well, so Podesta clicked on it and the rest is history. http://www.theverge.com/2016/12/13/13940514/dnc-email-hack-typo-john-podesta-clinton-russia
rikyrah
@ruemara:
they miss the Good Old Days of White Socialism.
They really don’t understand why he can’t wave a wand and take away the healthcare/jobs of ‘ those people’.
Yeah, I said it, and I meant it. Their panic was seeing that they couldn’t just take away Obamacare from ‘ those people’. That THEIR healthcare would be taken away. You saw it in story after story about these folks. Then they were all..”hold up…I want my CARE, now that that OBAMA fella is no longer President.”
The entire 2016 Election is one big kiss to White Supremacy.
They are shocked by our reactions, though. That Nobody is kissing their ass, or even having patience with them, or Dolt45. They’re expecting folks to fall in line, and people are like, ‘ Phuck outta here, muthaphuckas’.
Kay says it all the time – they voted for him KNOWING that he was a racist, disgusting human being.
And, yes, you will be held accountable for your actions. Whatever happens to this country is on Mayo Nation. Outside of the Slave Catchers, non-Whites aren’t having it, and not taking the excuses.
Gin & Tonic
@EBT: Ten to one he’s got money in Cyprus.
Boatboy_srq
@? Martin: Without a federal public sector investigation – and given that Sessions is unlikely to pursue this and US attorneys who were have been summarily dismissed, and that Nunes is effectively done and Yertle has no incentive to push for Senate action – there’s nobody but journalists who can investigate. Lord Dampnut has done a number on the press’ reputation amongst his Death Eaters, and Murdoch put the first nails in that coffin, so no matter who goes digging or how much dirt they find the GOTea R&F won’t care. The one remaining investigative body is now so devalued by the Teahad that nothing they publish will be significant. There might as well be no investigation at all if this works as Lord Dampnut wishes, because the resources doing the investigating aren’t credible to too many voters.
Betty Cracker
@geg6: I also remember there were reports that a whole bunch of planes were unaccounted for. Turned out that was just the general confusion of that day, but it was legit scary. I was working near Tampa Airport on 9/11, and I went to the top of the parking garage at my building to watch the planes land — so many landing, none taking off. When I described it to my husband, he flew into a panic that I was on top of a building near the airport, and he’s not at all the hysterical type. But everyone was scared. Like Clay said at #133, there’s no shame in that, but hanging onto it forever by choice is messed up.
@Gin & Tonic: I will check it out. Thanks!
Barbara
@EBT: Yes, that seems rather implausible, unless he is divorced and his ex-wife got the house.
PJ
@Boatboy_srq: I would bet that the NY AG, Schneiderman, has an investigation underway.
les
@Barbara:
No doubt; and in the heat of the moment, with information lacking, makes sense. 15 years later, with 0 murders by refugees, fewer Americans shot by terrorists than by 3 year olds–not so much as to justify voting for a discolored con man.
Chris
@geg6:
For politics junkies, yes.
For the average liberal voter in the street? Depends. For the average white liberal, I’d say no – in my experience, many, possibly most of these people are still in denial about how completely the insanity has taken over the other party. The average minority and/or immigrant voter is probably less deluded, admittedly.
Major Major Major Major
@PJ: ah yeah, that’s right. This election was just failures all the way down.
The Moar You Know
@rikyrah: I’ll happily take that a step farther. All the Trump voters I know – thankfully not many – voted for him because they were racist, disgusting human beings. Every last one. Yeah, there’s a couple with buyer’s remorse now, but it’s because the wall isn’t getting put up RIGHT FUCKING NOW.
ETA: I look at Trump as not the problem, but a symptom of the problem. The people who voted for him are the problem. And sadly, that is not a problem that can be solved quickly, if at all.
EBT
@? Martin: The disabled and elderly will get the first shaft.
Lurking Canadian
@PJ: Of course governments could issue notes and use it for infrastructure and stuff. As Martin points out, these people are literally (and I mean that literally) PAYING THE GOVERNMENT TO HOLD THEIR MONEY. As Martin also points out, the money could just be taxed away from them and invested in infrastructure and stuff, too. There are macroeconomic reasons why we ought to be doing those things. This is why Paul krugman’s been running around with his hair on fire for going on ten years.
The reason we don’t is…You want the gummint to spend money? What are you, some kinda pinko?
Major Major Major Major
@Chris: I know many (white mostly male) liberals who spent the election blogging like freshmen about the dangers of a two-party duopoly while, you know, the fascists took over.
Corner Stone
@Chris:
“I ain’t got a problem! I can quit anytime!”
“Man, look at yoself!”
Major Major Major Major
@Corner Stone: have you ever said you’d quit blogging but had a hard time following through?
Barbara
@sukabi: Bannon and Kushner are in way over their heads. I don’t think they have any idea how intelligence and law enforcement services work. The idea that they will be able to operate like the Wizard of Oz and push buttons that no one will be able to trace back to them is just completely nuts, and probably the product of only ever having run things where no one is allowed to push back without being fired. Nunes is just stupid.
different-church-lady
@The Moar You Know: DING DING DING DING DING WE HAVE A WINNER!
les
@PJ:
the money is in so few hands it’s not being spent in the actual economy, and there aren’t enough places to put it. Securities markets are at record highs, pretty much divorced from actual business; start ups are risky and too small for the giant piles of money. What are they gonna do? Listen to The Giant Pool of Money from back in the housing debacle days–kinda the same situation.
different-church-lady
@Barbara: I don’t think Bannon has any idea how his shoelaces work.
Chris
@The Moar You Know:
Correct.
And not to go all hipster, but I (and many others) have been saying it since long before Trump. He’s only the latest culmination of a half-century of this looniness.
SatanicPanic
@Chris: I still keep meeting people who are like “let’s talk to the other side”. I have no idea what they hope to accomplish. Listen to some of them for like five minutes, the only common ground you’re going to find is on things that aren’t politics.
glory b
@Aleta: I read that he was unsure of opening the email, called the IT guys, who told him it was safe to open.
I think that some of the folks getting on his case for being so dumb would have done the same, if your IT folks said it was safe. I would have too.
les
@clay:
Yeah–with a gun and, unfortunately, a vote.
different-church-lady
@Major Major Major Major: Why is everyone looking at me?
? Martin
@PJ:
Because US Treasuries have, for the last two centuries, been guaranteed investments. That is, you would never lose your money. Most other investments put your principal at risk, and that’s really what these people are doing – “I have all the money I need, I just need to make sure I don’t lose it’. Money markets arguably are guaranteed, though that nearly fell apart in 2008. Savings accounts are only insured up to 250K. When you have millions or billions to invest, there are scant few places that can afford to take your money and guarantee they will give it all back to you.
Corporate bonds would have filled a lot of that gap, but increasing corporations don’t need capital. We have gotten better and better at on-demand manufacturing, computing, distribution and so on that you don’t need to build this kind of stuff – you just lease it at the scale you need.
The government has no problem getting people to loan them money. The problem is that legislators don’t want the government to borrow it (deficit). What a company would do is look at the opportunity costs here. If you could borrow $1T at 3% yield, invest it in various infrastructure such that it would boost the economy by an additional 1% per year, it would come out ahead – it would pick up enough in new tax revenue to pay for borrowing the money. But Republicans don’t see the world that way. Every dollar we invest in the IRS returns at least $5 to the treasury. We lose money by not spending the $1, but the GOP want to starve the IRS because they think it saves money. It’s absurd. It’s like saying you quit your job because now you don’t need to pay for gas to get there.
Corner Stone
Fucking Joe Manchin. Assface motherfucker.
Chris
@Major Major Major Major:
“Blogging like freshmen,” LOL. That’s a good way to put it.
There’ve been a lot of observations about politics that I’ve seen from liberal or nonconservative people this past cycle where I’m like “you know, as a freshman, I probably would’ve found this interesting and maybe even agreed with it, but at some point you’re supposed to grow up. (Also, y’know, when I was a freshman, the face of the other party wasn’t Trump).”
Barbara
@Corner Stone: It would be more useful if you gave context.
PJ
@les: It’s crazy, to think what we could do in this country if the government were allowed to invest in it.
Major Major Major Major
@different-church-lady: Why, have your friends ever expressed concerns about the amount you blog?
Chris
@SatanicPanic:
Yeah, I know. I have relatives like this, and all I can think is “you’re just dreaming.”
Roger Moore
@PJ:
Two reasons. One is that there is literally more money sloshing around than there are reasonable looking businesses to invest it in. That’s one of the things you can get out of seeing really low interest rates. The other thing is that there are always some people who care more about safety than about returns. If you invest in a business, you may make a positive return, but it also may go bankrupt and lose everything- obviously a bigger worry when the economy is in the doldrums than when it’s humming along. If you’re really afraid of losing everything, you may prefer to invest in something that’s super safe, even if it has low, or even slightly negative, return.
Boatboy_srq
@PJ: Without DOJ support, and with all the news coverage dismissable as “fake news”, how far can that really get? Never mind what Gorsuch, Alito and Thomas would do to the plaintiff in SCOTUS argument.
MomSense
@ruemara:
Or google Malaga Island.
stinger
@Stan: “Like”
sherparick
@? Martin: Except of course the United States is a sovereign with an indefinite life span and can continue to roll over debt as long as it has the taxing power. Further, if the nominal size of the economy grows faster than the nominal size of the debt, the Government can carry the debt indefinitely, particularly when the interest rate it has to pay is equal to or less than the rate of inflation. This is why the debt is the biggest non-issue in American politics.
Proposed dialogue with standard issue Republican/Tea Party type. Government spending is out of control. The deficit is an immoral burden we are passing on to our children (never mind the real problems we are passing on to our children on Global Warming, Ocean acidification, mass extinction of species, gross inequality, etc.).
Response: Won’t our children, all things being equal, also be richer and have higher incomes then us because of free market capitalism? They will certainly answer yes.
Response: Then the debt will be a smaller and more manageable problem for our children then if they use some of that wealth and income inherited from us to pay off the debt which help create and defend the system.
Corner Stone
@Barbara: Does it ever matter why we choose to condemn Joe Manchin? He is an assface motherfucker.
He announced pre-emptively that he will be voting for Gorsuch.
PJ
@? Martin: Thanks for the explanations.
Major Major Major Major
@sherparick: Sure, but deficit scolds aren’t actually concerned about the deficit, they more or less just don’t like black people very much.
MomSense
@Chris:
It’s not just the Republicans. The first targets of the Russian disinformation campaign were the BS supporters. We have different issues concerning dissemination of false information than the GOP but when “progressives” are sharing right wing propaganda and conspiracy theories about HRC we have a serious problem.
Barbara
@Chris: I had a post earlier that was eaten somehow, so no links, but the Business Section of the NYT had an article this morning on trends in the economy, and talked to the owner/manager of a small textile company in Western North Carolina, who said that it was hard to get qualified employees where they were located, that years ago they could take uneducated people and train them, but that textile technology now requires all workers to have familiarity with technology and reasonable math skills. They are in Appalachia (near the Tennessee border). I don’t know what will happen when millions of people want jobs but disdain the kind of education and training required to acquire skills their employers need. Maybe this is a generational bulge issue, for people between 40 and 60, which won’t persist, but reading interviews with Trump voters who don’t own computers and don’t want to own computers but want to make the same $70K annual salary they did doing basically manual labor does not make me an optimist.
danielx
@Chris:
Quite true. At this point they regard the presidency as theirs by divine right; they haven’t viewed a Democratic presidency as legitimate for the last thirty years. They regard the country as theirs as well, which is where you hear and see all this “I want my country back!” horseshit.
In other news, Representative Ted Yoho (R-insane) defends Devin Nunes by claiming the following:
I must have missed that part in high school government class.
Yoho, separation of powers, bitchez! Yoho! Wonder if he wears a tricorn hat and an eyepatch.
? Martin
@EBT: That’s my guess as well. China can take their money elsewhere, retirees cannot. And the GOP will scream that because of this, Social Security needs to be privatized because the government cannot be trusted with people’s retirements.
les
@PJ:
Why, that’s just crazy talk, man. Everybody knows gov just spends its money on waste fraud abuse! I work with a guy–lawyer, not stupid–who just knows gov can’t create jobs. He’s here in Kansas City, where the single biggest employer is government. Well, he does believe in $600 hammers, too.
sherparick
@? Martin: Only thing I disagree with you is on the Republicans motivation. They don’t cut the IRS to save the Government money. They cut the IRS to save their donors money.
PJ
@Roger Moore: Thanks also. If only there were some way to get all of that excess cash redistributed so that it would be spent and invested, creating more jobs and a better future for everyone . . .
? Martin
@sherparick: All correct. It’s only an issue because the debt limit is an independent thing from expenditure approval. That Congress can approve the Executive to spend $500B more than we know we have on the military and then deny the Treasury the ability to borrow the $500B is pretty much insane.
Now, if the debt ceiling were controlled by an independent entity, I could see it as a check against the expenditure approval – but it’s not, it’s the same people. In an even minimally rational world, the debt limit would automatically increase when the expenditure was approved. But no, we keep it separate so we can hold the country for ransom.
SatanicPanic
@MomSense: It seems like people aren’t sharing RT links like they were a few months ago. So some of the stupids learned.
The Moar You Know
@SatanicPanic: I don’t either. Problem is, the politics poisons everything else. I had an interesting experience recently that really illustrated, for me, just how badly politics has poisoned everything in this nation.
I used to play music for a living and recently have gotten back into doing it for spare cash and getting out of the house every now and then. Known both the guitarist and keyboardist for decades, since I was a teen just starting out. So we were auditioning drummers. And we voted down the best guy we auditioned. He had two problems:
1. Too loud. That’s fixable.
2. Trumper.
This gave me in particular quite a rash. As the bassist, I’ve got to have a great drummer, we work together. But I just couldn’t see dealing with the inevitable bullshit. And the other two guys, much to my shock, were far more vociferous about it. No fucking way, said they.
I have played with every race, creed, religion, gender, sexual orientation and political leaning. Including some flat-out racist bigots. But shit has finally changed. I’m glad that libs aren’t willing (finally) to put up with being abused any longer, but damn, I hate having to write people off for reasons that have nothing to do with their musical ability.
And there is no question where the blame for this new cultural divide lies. It’s with the damned Republicans. They’ve spent forty fucking years demonizing us, and we’re finally sick of being told we’re the problem. We’re not. It’s the sacks of crap who divide this nation for their own short-term political gain that are the problem.
Major Major Major Major
@SatanicPanic: It’s certainly not nearly as many people sharing them but in my circles it’s only the hardened leftists, otherwise fairly intelligent people, who share RT.
geg6
@Chris:
Based on my own anecdotal social media evidence, the average Dem voter is WOKE for the first time in my lifetime to the prion disease that has taken over on the other side of the aisle. People who used to always tell me I was shrill and shouldn’t be so divisive about the GOPers are even more upset and fired up than I am. Probably because they sincerely believed that we, Dems and GOPers, could all get along and I never really did. My natural cynicism has finally paid off and they are now all peppering me for advice for what to read and watch. After a 58 year lifetime of them telling me to lighten up, Francis, suddenly I am the wizard of politics for them.
lurker dean
@rikyrah: your comment reminded me of a satiric piece i just read that’s spot on.
https://extranewsfeed.com/opinion-im-not-a-bigot-i-just-don-t-care-about-minorities-d570f855c9b8
sherparick
@MomSense: I would blame the NY Times for a great deal of this. They basically swallowed Peter Schweitzer’s book “Clinton Cash” and created a whole stream of headlines and “questions must be asked” stories about Hillary during the spring and summer of 2015. They did not look behind Schweitzer, that he was basically a hack working for the Mercers and Bannon, and they gave his book and allegations all sorts of credibility. https://thinkprogress.org/steve-bannon-new-york-times-washington-post-clinton-cash-d59d6492546
The NY Times is as responsible for the Trump Presidency as an single entity in existence.
geg6
@The Moar You Know:
Yes. I concur completely.
PJ
@The Moar You Know: The right-wing noise machine has been working to create this world for 40 years. That’s a lot of money, time, and man-power, but for the Koch Bros. of this world, it was worth every penny. I don’t know if it’s a majority, but, if not, a substantial percentage of the population now believe that the only proper role of the government is to make war, and everything else is illegitimate (and, at the same time, of course, the government needs to take its hands off their Medicare). I’m afraid it’s going to take a similar period of time and effort and money to get this country back to the point where people believe that government can and should work to resolve our common problems and improve our common future.
SatanicPanic
@The Moar You Know: Same here- dealt with all kinds, but right now, no way. life is too short. I rarely do political songs, but I just wouldn’t want to deal with that kind of personality. I’m curious if that’ll start showing up in craigslist ads- “Looking for guitar player- 420 friendly, but no junkies and no Trumpers”.
Major Major Major Major
@geg6: absolutely agree. Although I’m only a cynical 31 year old bastard.
DocSardonic
@Aleta: Very few people do. Most believe that their email, bank accounts etc are very secure because they changed the default password. Case in point, online firm I once worked for had setup a store for online ordering. Person that did the setup originally secured the core router username/password setup from the default Admin/admin to the “extremely” secure adM1n/AdM1N and duplicated it on the commerce server. And no your pets name is not good either.
EBT
@? Martin: And just plain fuck the cripples.
Boatboy_srq
@sherparick: They cut the IRS to save their donors audits and prosecution. Saving them money is a convenient byproduct.
Miss Bianca
Well, surprise, surprise, surprise….look what else is coming out of the hearings..
http://www.rawstory.com/2017/03/russians-used-bernie-bros-as-unwitting-agents-in-disinformation-campaign-senate-intel-witness/
“oh, you mean Hillary Clinton may NOT have used a body double and murdered her opponents? Well, how were WE supposed to know that? It sounded so PLAUSIBLE!”
For so long, I resisted so hard the notion that there were leftists who were just as gullible and uninformed as right-wingers….that surely the disaster of 2000 had taught them a lesson about gulping down the “both sides do it!” Kool-aid…but this election has forever disabused me of that notion.
artem1s
@? Martin:
mmmm, maybe. If Pence and GOP use 25th to get rid of Twittler, he would have a chance to appoint a VP and get the Senate to confirm. A la Gerald Ford when Sprio Agnew stepped down. Carl Albert (D) was speaker when Agnew left office. He didn’t move up to VP. Ryan won’t automatically get bumped up to VP. Pence would probably get a shot at appointing a VP. If the moderates prevail, then it would probably be someone like Kasich to restore trust in the WH (hahahahaha, yea right). Then when Pence goes down the GOP will have someone clean of #TrumpRussia to install into the WH (and run in 2020). Ryan might still lose the speakership or his seat in 2018. But unless you take down both Twittler and Pence at the same time, the Speaker won’t necessarily assume the Presidency.
bemused
Great story at Vox about CA teacher Scott Bedley and how he taught his 5th graders to spot fake news and have fun doing it. “Now they won’t stop fact-checking me”.
Bedley was selected Orange County Teacher of the year and CA State Teacher of the Year Finalist. Orange County!
I gotta hunch these 10-11 year olds are going to be savvy voters.
Corner Stone
Heitkamp now also a Yes on Gorsuch.
These fucking people.
KS in MA
@bemused: Brilliant!
TomatoQueen
@Stan: It could happen.
Betty Cracker
@Corner Stone: What an ass-faced motherfucker!
@Miss Bianca: Word.
clay
@sherparick:
Hmmm… Do we count the Electoral College as a single entity? That’s the only one where we can say, “without this, Hillary would 100% be President”
bemused
@KS in MA:
Yes! I loved it. When 10 year olds can so easily and eagerly learn to learn to use their BS detectors, it puts Trump supporters, WH and GOP utterly to shame.
Roger Moore
@different-church-lady:
He certainly hasn’t mastered the razor.
Aleta
It’s a drag to believe this, but I expect now the Rs will go all out to deflect attention from Trump by spreading confusion about this scary cyberworld we don’t understand. Rubio today: “The Russian blitzkrieg was intended to drive wedges between the American public.” And others: “Russians are tampering all over the world,” “Every government is vulnerable,” “Hackers can plant false evidence even porn on anyone’s computer.” “The enemy isn’t Trump, it’s a/b/c/d.” So many stories that people won’t trust any news.
Cyber threats are real, what’s happening is true, but it’s a long term problem to work steadily at. We’ve been expecting it. We can’t let them do what Cheney-Bush-Rumsfeld did, use confusion about a diffuse enemy as an excuse for invasion of privacy and protester intimidation and jailing Muslims on suspicion.
artem1s
@Miss Bianca:
Look out for the opposition research that JEB did on BS to make an appearance as well. I’d be really surprised if that info wasn’t in the DNC, DCCC, and RNC hacks. I have a hard time believing the Hillary campaign didn’t do some thorough opposition research on Sanders and we know JEB did. I’ve been expecting a well timed leak of some really damning info on BS to further the paranoia of the BBros and their insistence that DWS, Shillary, and/or Bamz deep stated Bernie. All of it will be aimed at creating mistrust of the info about aid given to Twittler and it will be used in more bothsiderism BS. you know, ‘all campaigns do it, nothing to see here; didn’t make any difference; she would have lost anyway cause she didn’t visit WI’.
Major Major Major Major
@Miss Bianca: I used to think that the stereotype of the America-hating leftist was made up by conservatives.
Roger Moore
@? Martin:
Sorry, but this is bullshit. Maybe Corporation A can lease all the stuff it needs, but it has to lease it from Corporation B, which owns it, and Corporation B will need a lot of capital to own all that stuff. Similarly, lean manufacturing and the like mean there is less stuff that’s just sitting there waiting for stuff to happen to it, but there’s still need for a fair amount. So there may be some reduction in overall capital, but it’s not as you’re making it sound; it’s more a question of who holds the capital.
different-church-lady
@Major Major Major Major: These “friends” you speak of — what are they?
Annie
@? Martin:
It’ll be Speaker Pelosi!
Miss Bianca
@Major Major Major Major: IKR? I did, too. And then when I saw it in action and found myself utterly repelled by it – and pushing back with the weaponry of realpolitik against my white lefty friends – I found myself thinking, “does this mean *I’m* turning into a conservative?!”
Spoiler alert: No, I don’t really think so. But is there such a thing as a “militant moderate”?
different-church-lady
@Miss Bianca:
“And boy, were those great times!” the supporters added.
D58826
@Miss Bianca: saw a survey today where uncle joe is more popular the Bernie. Oh the wailing and knashing of bernie bro teeth
different-church-lady
@MomSense:
Let’s face it: the former Soviets and Trump will always have a better understanding of the dark side of human nature than we ever will.
Miss Bianca
@different-church-lady: dammit! thanks for the iced tea nose snort, d-c-l!
Chris
@Miss Bianca:
Of course there have always been leftists that are as gullible and uninformed as right-wingers, the difference being that they aren’t the norm in the Democratic Party that they are in the Republican Party, and are in fact a definite minority. That’s still the case even after 2016 – problem is, even a definite minority is still enough to massively TARFU things up.
different-church-lady
@SatanicPanic: Part of me believes a lot of people on both sides of the spectrum were taking some perverse glee in the idea of kicking the crap out of Madame President for four years.
It’s was all fun and games until someone put an eye out.
different-church-lady
@clay: Without the Electoral College, nobody would be president.
different-church-lady
@SatanicPanic: Addition: I think one of the big eye openers of all this is realizing there’s people on the left who enjoy trolling the left just as much as people on the right do.
? Martin
@Corner Stone:
Don’t disagree. But their best option for keeping Yates et al out of the committee was for Nunes to object to them being on the witness list. If a new House committee, or a select committee were to form, they would lose that control. They obviously had control over Nunes, yet Nunes allowed them on the list and scheduled the hearing. Either Nunes didn’t know until mid-week how deep the WH was in this, or he’s, remarkably, even dumber than he’s appeared thus far.
Miss Bianca
@Chris: I think the thing that burned me up was the “too cool for school” kidz who were all like, “oh, you can’t fool *me* with that neoliberal centrist crap – we all KNOW Hillary Clinton is the warmonger-iest warmonger that ever lived, and that Wall Street speeches mean that we can’t trust her to be a real liberal!” And when taxed with the notion that St. Wilmer had endorsed her, so maybe they should get on the band wagon too, were all, “oh, well, we knew he’d be a sell-out, too.”
Head has been meeting desk at regular intervals for well over a year, now…
Rand Careaga
@EBT:
I have a couple of acquaintances who are giddy with excitement about the Nunes winery story. They’ve both linked to a story on the rather dodgy “Palmer Report” site (find it yourself, if you’ve the time to waste), which reports that he has $50,000 invested in a Napa winery that—wait for it—has a Russian distributor. This sets up the breathless punchline:
“This means Nunes has the vast majority of his small net worth tied up in a business venture which partially relies on sales in Russia.”
That “partially” is doing a lot of work. How much of a Napa winery’s business is likely to “rely” on its Russian sales? What would be the effect on Alpha-Omega’s bottom line if it lost those sales? Slender to negligible, is my bet. Based on Napa land values alone, the Congressman’s $50K stake in the enterprise is, shall we say, unlikely to represent a major fraction of its capitalization, or entitle him to vast and fabulous profits from the exports of its plonk to the distant steppes. I yield to no one in this thread when it comes to my contempt for the hapless Nunes, but this kind of straining at gnats for a Russian connection simply degrades the signal-to-noise ratio, which ultimately serves the other side’s purposes.
WereBear
@Gin & Tonic: Now that’s on my list. Thanks!
MomSense
@sherparick:
I agree about the Vichy Times. What kills me is that people still gave that publication the status of newspaper of record even after the Cheney-Judith Miller planted chemical weapons stories and the Jayson Blair scandals. That guy was ahead of time with the whole fake news thing.
Quinerly
@Rand Careaga:
For what it’s worth, SNOPES puts the winery, Russia, Nunes story at “unproven.”
Roger Moore
@different-church-lady:
Haven’t you been reading Doug J for long enough to figure that out?
Chris
@Miss Bianca:
Yeah, and the thing is, I’m largely sympathetic to the view that the Democratic Party slipped too far towards the economic center/right around the turn of the century (while also acknowledging why this happened – a large number of the New Deal coalition’s working-class base going Nixonite/Reaganite, and thus making the working class a less reliable base of support, was a prominent reason).
What enraged me was the complete failure to recognize that it wasn’t the 1990s anymore and how far the Democratic Party had shifted to the economic left simply between 2006 and 2016 – something Hillary Clinton’s platform amply recognized. A large part of the too-cool-for-school set’s politics was based on basically pretending that the entire previous decade hadn’t happened, and that Bernie Sanders was the first guy since Lyndon Johnson to go “you guys what about economic populism!” When in reality he was hopping on the bandwagon only after years of other people, including Obama, showing him that it was in fact a good thing to run on nationally again.
(That and as a millennial white guy earning close to minimum wage, supposedly Sanders’ demographic, who only has health insurance because of the ACA, I tend to be violently inclined against the various nitwits trashing the “corporatist,” “neoliberal” system that’s the only thing keeping me healthy and not-bankrupted-by-medical-bills, just because it doesn’t meet their standards of becoming Denmark overnight).
Mnemosyne
@Chris:
Let’s face it: there’s quite a bit of (probably subconscious) racism on the part of the far lefties who absolutely refused to acknowledge that Obama had swung the Democrats to the left economically. There was no way that Obama was trying to do what was best for the whole country, which meant that the (white) far lefties were by definition being ignored.
Subconscious racism is probably more toxic than out-and-proud white supremacism because at least the white supremacists are honest with themselves and others.
Adam L Silverman
@Pogonip: @rikyrah: Just got in, don’t know if either of you are still around, but basically it would blow up the US economy, the US dollar would cease being the default currency, and it would, likely, blow up the global economy. The hardest hit would be Americans as the bulk (depending on the day, at least 2/3rds) of the US’s debt is held by Americans in their retirement funds – pensions and 401Ks.
Of course if you were looking for an easy way to blow up the global economic order, this would be the easiest way to do it.
Give this a read:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/trump-steers-into-global-economy-collision-course-a-1140630.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter#ref=rss
Chris
@Mnemosyne:
I needn’t even go as far as “Obama swung the Democrats to the left economically.” The Democrats swung to the left economically, because both circumstances and changing public opinion allowed and arguably required it. Same with Hillary Clinton running well to the left of where Bill had twenty years earlier. But they don’t recognize that – it’s the ultimate “refuse to take yes for an answer.”
As far as the subconscious-racism thing goes, well… I think the number of people after 2016 who eagerly jumped up and said “we need to back away from identity politics, it’s just so divisive!” was telling, and not in a good way.
To be fair, far-lefties were far from alone in this – plenty of professional centrists and certainly all the Republicans were saying it too (where “identity politics” only means the liberal kind, of course). But that they find themselves in the same company as the MSM doesn’t really speak well for the Berniebro fringe, even by their own standards.
Weaselone
@? Martin:
They don’t starve the IRS because it saves money, they starve it because it enables their donors to get away with not paying taxes.
Adam L Silverman
@Corner Stone: LTG McMaster only has a handful of his own people in place. One just started this week – Fiona Hill who is a Russia specialist. Everyone else is a Flynn holdover or someone the President wanted like McFarland.
Adam L Silverman
@Mike J: Yep. No one, other than Flynn, Bannon, and Kushner wants an early 30s year old, junior analyst as the Senior Director for US Intelligence Policy on the National Security Staff.
D58826
@Adam L Silverman: Maybe they better dust of KTHUGS 1 trillion $ platinum coin
Lizzy L
@Adam L Silverman: “Blow up the global economy” — and in that case nobody wins except the rats and the sharks. I have to think that the rich people who prop up our current system of government, whatever you want to call it, will not allow it to happen. Fingers crossed.
Adam L Silverman
@Lizzy L: Secretary Ross intends to trigger the NAFTA 90 day count down to renegotiation next week.
https://www.rawstory.com/2017/03/us-commerces-ross-says-hopes-to-trigger-nafta-talks-countdown-by-next-week/
Blowing up NAFTA will be easy. Negotiating a bilateral trade agreement just with Mexico and another one just with Canada will not. And there is no US corporation that I know of that is demanding this happen, wants it to happen, and/or needs it to happen to help the bottom line.
Children playing with dynamite.
Boatboy_srq
@danielx: Yoho’s comment actually makes all the TABMITWH bvllshyte make sense. They really do believe that they work for a GOTea pResident, and that Dems work for a Dem President. Pelosi, Warren, Schumer and the rest were NOT acting in their constituents’ best interest but at the whim of That Guy. And now Obama is no longer POTUS, they should all be fired by the guy who is.
It’s a seriously twisted read on the US government, but it makes their attitudes comprehensible.
Roger Moore
@Chris:
I think there was a bit more to it. Some of the economic swing to the right was just the pendulum swinging back after having gone too far to the left. The economy of the mid 70s was very heavily regulated in ways even most lefties today would acknowledge as counterproductive. The deregulation craze that started under Carter and really got moving under Reagan was a response to real problems; it just swung too far back to the right. The changes under Obama were just another correction, back to the left this time.
D58826
@Adam L Silverman: There have been a couple of articles about the improvements to NAFTA that the guy who will remain nameless negotiated as part of the TPP accord. Bye Bye TPP and bye bye any incentive for Canada to negotiate the same deal.
But Der Fuhrer does such BIG deals (sigh)
patrick II
@gratuitous:
You recall the day when the Russians were socialists. Now they are fascists, so Russians are “fellow travelers” with our right wing, just along a different path.
Corner Stone
@Adam L Silverman: Not relevant to my comment.
beef
About US debt default:
In much of the global financial system, US Govt debt is effectively the numeraire. If the government defaults, there’s going to suddenly be a lot of uncertainty about what practically everything is worth. It’s the sort of thing that leads to bank runs.
TenguPhule
@Corner Stone: Obviously Manchin needs to find a Trump supporter’s head in his bed. (Horses didn’t do anything wrong)