The “microtargeting” part sounds potentially like big data bullshit, but otherwise, yeah:
“This is a three-headed operation,” said one former official, setting out the case, based on the intelligence: Firstly, hackers steal damaging emails from senior Democrats. Secondly, the stories based on this hacked information appear on Twitter and Facebook, posted by thousands of automated “bots”, then on Russia’s English-language outlets, RT and Sputnik, then right-wing US “news” sites such as Infowars and Breitbart, then Fox and the mainstream media. Thirdly, Russia downloads the online voter rolls.
The voter rolls are said to fit into this because of “microtargeting”. Using email, Facebook and Twitter, political advertising can be tailored very precisely: individual messaging for individual voters.
One aspect of this that isn’t being discussed is the track record right-wing media has of taking money from foreign governments to run favorable stories. One example involves the Ukranian political party backed by Putin (the story is from 2013):
Several conservative bloggers repeated talking points given to them by a proxy group for the Ukrainian government — and at least one writer was paid by a representative of the Ukrainian group, according to documents and emails obtained by BuzzFeed.
Baud
Fourthly, Jill Stein!
Mike in DC
If you reverse engineered the election results, pretty sure you’d also conclude this would be one way to bring it about.
Baud
Agree on the BS regarding the connection between voter rolls and online microtargeting.
Citizen_X
Why, Doug? There’s nothing that can give you quite the personalized, human touch of a computer crunching 50 million voter profiles.
Marmot
Has anyone studied the extent to which InfoWars and Breitbart pass along Russian misinformation and other propaganda?
My knee-jerk feeling is that it’s rampant.
Thoroughly Pizzled
The whole “hack your brain” thing probably isn’t that powerful, I think. It seems sort of like a way to absolve voters of responsibility.
Mike in DC
@Marmot:
Indeed. That’s why it has become part of the FBI investigation.
m0nty
@Baud:
“The President implicated in a burglary at a hotel? BS.”
“The President impeached over a blowjob? BS.”
“The President implicated in fabrication of intelligence to start war? BS.”
anonymouse
The microtargeting thing is legit. You can load a voter file into facebook and match voter profiles to facebook ones and use that for targeting – say you’re doing regular phone banking and you have a list of 1s-5s. Code your voter file with that, then you can upload the file to facebook, match profiles to your records, and you can target “firm up support” messaging to 2s, contrast messaging to 3s, and suppression messaging to 4s.
PS this isn’t super expensive to do – a couple grand per congressional district, I think.
Mike E
Whoo-whoo x infinity
amk
The Moar You Know
@Thoroughly Pizzled: It can be. 90% follow 10% – that’s an advertising rule of thumb. You hit the right people and get them to start disseminating your message, it can be extraordinarily effective.
Problem is, you’ve got to know who those opinionmakers are. But I think the Russians figured if they threw enough chum into the water, they’d get some of those people, and they certainly did.
Pretty sure one recently departed BJ front-pager was one of those.
Baud
@m0nty: I’m not sure what your point is. My comment wasn’t directed at intent or motive but at capability and utility of using voting rolls in this manner.
Yarrow
@Marmot: That’s part of what the FBI is investigating. I think the results of that investigation could be very interesting.
Taylor
What exactly does a voter roll provide to facilitate “micro-targeting.”
If “micro-targeting” is based on supplementary consumer information, then who needs voter rolls?
This smells like someone about to float a “micro-targeting” IPO.
Roger Moore
Yeah, but Sorosbucks!
Thoroughly Pizzled
@The Moar You Know: Yeah, definitely. This seems like a much better strategy than targeting Internet ads for individual voters. Cheaper as well.
James E Powell
Question. Would “microtargeting” be necessary with right-wingers? They are already completely wrapped up on the world as presented by their churches, FOX, and right-wing talk radio. And all of that is intensified by the various social networks.
For years now, it’s been noted and discussed that it’s this unified worldview – pounded daily – that makes the RW so politically powerful. Consider that economic meltdown of 2007-2008 did nothing to shake their faith in it.
NYCMT
I’m reminded of Josh Trevino (“Tacitus”) and his slumming for Malaysia.
Major Major Major Major
You mean that chaining together fifteen models each with <100% accuracy might lead to something other than perfect informational fidelity? Horseshit.
m0nty
@Baud:
My point was that seemingly unlikely things keep happening around US Presidents. It may sound far-fetched, but a lot of strange things have been going on.
schrodingers_cat
Go at the right wingers by all means but readers of the Nation and GG acolytes and supporters of BS were not immune to the Russian propaganda either.
Kay
@amk:
If Trump were serious about working with Democrats he’d give them Garland. THAT would change the stakes.
He’s not offering them anything. Work with Donald Trump to get a lesser version of Obamacare so Trump voters can keep Medicaid and vote for Donald Trump again? It’s a horrible deal. He’s bad at this, particularly because Democrats just watched Trump give the Freedom Caucus everything they wanted. Democrats can demand a lot.
FlyingToaster
The microtargeting is unlikely to have used voter rolls in every state. But using voter rolls in about 5 (Florida, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan and Wisconsin) would be doable, and worth the time on the server farm.
One of the problems that microtargeting can address is “which voters do I not try to reach?” In 2004, Romney wasted money here in MA sending out Republican bumf to every homeowner, even if all registered voters at that address were registered as Democrats. His push to add Republicans (recruited from places like Kentucky) to the Lege resulted in a 7 seat loss to the Rs. Their ad buys were all on broadcast news, evening primetime broadcast, and 24-hour cable.
For the 2016 national election, the GOP was fighting to keep NH seats, so they used the same advertising formula, and I suspect appealing to their targets on Facebook. They lost their Fed seats, but flipped the Governor’s mansion back to R.
What can counter microtargeting is, alas, feet on the ground. And local targeting this past election in MA was FAR better; no Democrat wasted their time knocking on my door (two registered Ds, haven’t missed an election since we moved in), but they knocked on my unenrolled neighbor’s door once a week. I got a few robocalls, several offering to drive me to the polls for either early voting or Election Day. I have high hopes for the organizing going on around the country.
m0nty
Remember when all the talk was about Hillary’s machine for winning the ground game, and how Trump had a 12 year old and his dog running his campaign? Then she lost. What is more unlikely: that Trump was able to win despite no organisation, or that he actually outsourced his machine requirements to the Russians?
Roger Moore
@The Moar You Know:
But that’s the exact opposite of microtargeting. The idea of microtargeting is that you cut out the middle man opinion leaders by figuring out exactly what will sell to each person and deliver a message tailored to them specifically. I suspect that you’re right that it actually worked more like a conventional ad campaign, but the brag was that it was successful because of the microtargeting stuff.
Woodrowfan
@James E Powell: some are gun nuts, some anti-abortion nuts, some hate blacks, some hate immigrants, etc. fine-tune the ad to their strongest hatred.
Baud
@m0nty: That’s a useless way to think about things. Anything is possible but that doesn’t make it likely. Thinking otherwise leads to Pizzagate.
Major Major Major Major
@m0nty: the former. Shit happens.
rikyrah
Quick Takes: Cops Turn on Sessions
by Nancy LeTourneau March 29, 2017 6:24 PM
* During the presidential campaign, rather than try to bridge the divide between the police and BlackLivesMatter, Trump took sides and promised to further empower the police. In response, the Fraternal Order of Police endorsed him. Now they’re not so happy with his Attorney General.
quintillian
Note to Self had a story this week on some of the data mining / microtargeting claims that Cambridge Analytica and the Cruz and Trump campaigns made. The Cambridge guy said that they didn’t have enough time to do much with the Trump campaign since they were hired in May.
rikyrah
Ryan Lizza doesn’t pull any punches.
Baud
@rikyrah:
Sessions don’t care.
rikyrah
What Some Colleges are Quietly Doing to Help Undocumented Students
With sanctuary promises untested, institutions offer other long-sought help
by Timothy Pratt
March 29, 2017 11:00 PM HIGHER EDUCATION
As on other campuses, students at the University of Utah have been calling for the school to declare itself a sanctuary for undocumented immigrants, including those enrolled there.
There have been marches, a walkout and a rally at the administration building, where protesters taped copies of their demands to the president’s door. One was that the university refuse to work with, or provide students’ immigration status to, government authorities.
So far, administrators — as on some other campuses — have said no.
They were concerned about losing federal money,” said Marisol Perez Gonzalez, a senior sociology major who along with other students took part in meetings with administrators about these issues, and who herself has Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals, or DACA, status after being brought by her family from Mexico to Salt Lake City when she was 10.
But while the fate of undocumented students is still up in the air, and the effectiveness of promises at other universities to provide them sanctuary still untested, the attention to the issue in Utah and elsewhere has resulted in something much less widely noticed that could also have a big impact: Long-sought additional support is finally being added on campuses to help these students succeed in college.
The University of Utah has quietly agreed to create a resource center for undocumented students, and has hired a coordinator to run it. Similar supports have been put in place by Georgetown, Harvard, Western Washington University, San Diego State, San Francisco State and the California Polytechnic campuses at San Luis Obispo and Pomona.
Meng So, director of the undocumented-student resource center at UC Berkeley since it became the first in the nation in 2012, said he’s gotten dozens of how-to inquiries from other schools. “We’ve seen a surge in the number of universities reaching out to us,” So said.
Observers of the protests, and of the new support services for undocumented students, say pressure and attention from the first have led to the second.
schrodingers_cat
@rikyrah: T has declared a war on immigrants and if Democrats in any way cooperate with T it sends a signal that they are OK with his virulent agenda against them.
rikyrah
Countering the Lies of White Nationalists
by Nancy LeTourneau March 30, 2017 8:00 AM
As I have noted before, white nationalists like Steve Bannon and Stephen Miller want to flip the script on how we view immigrants and refugees in this country. They want us to stop us considering their plight and start being afraid of what immigrants and refugees will do to this country.
………………………
Sounds ominous, doesn’t it? So I decided to do a little fact-checking. Here is what I found:
Instead of citing anything from the Census Bureau (as the title suggests), the article attributes the claim to Steven Camarota at the Center for Immigration Studies — “a conservative non-profit research organization ‘that favors far lower immigration numbers and produces research to further those views.’”
None of the links provided by the Washington Examiner go to actual studies conducted by Camarota or CIS.
Camarota did publish an article at CIS in June 2013 which made these claims about an immigrant surge. It was titled “Foreign-Born Share Would Hit Historic High in Seven Years Under S.744.” He was referring to the Comprehensive Immigration Reform Bill crafted by the so-called “gang of eight” that passed the Senate but was never brought to a vote in the House.
For some actual data, we can turn to the Migration Policy Institute, “an independent, non-partisan, non-profit think-tank dedicated to the study of the movement of people worldwide.” There we find the following:
The U.S. immigrant population stood at more than 43.3 million, or 13.5 percent, of the total U.S. population of 321.4 million in 2015, according to American Community Survey (ACS) data. Between 2014 and 2015, the foreign-born population increased by 899,000, or 2.1 percent, a slower growth rate compared to 2.5 percent between 2013 and 2014.
rikyrah
March/April/May 2017
The Alt-Right Doesn’t Care About the Constitution
An emergent bloc of Republican voters, with unprecedented access to the new president’s administration, openly despises our founding document’s historic ideals. If left to fester, this poison will destroy the conservative movement.
by John Ehrett
What does the alt-right believe about the Constitution?
Though plenty of ink has already been spilled about the controversial movement, steeped in xenophobia and racism, that zealously backed Donald Trump’s campaign, this question has gone virtually unexplored.
In part, this is due to the difficulty of defining exactly what the alt-right stands for beyond explicit white supremacy. Some prominent “intellectuals” of the alt-right include Richard Spencer, president of the National Policy Institute and proponent of “peaceful ethnic cleansing”; Kevin MacDonald, a professor at California State University, Long Beach, known for his characterization of Judaism as a “group evolutionary strategy” deployed to out-compete other social groups for scarce resources; and Jared Taylor, a writer who argued in 2005 that black people cannot sustain Western civilization. Today’s alt-right is an internet-adept mélange of these white-identity activists alongside politically nihilistic pot stirrers.
While many differences exist within alt-right circles—for instance, some members are overtly anti-Semitic, some not—the alt-right rank and file seems to broadly embrace two general positions, both of which were once politically toxic: opposition to globalist economic policies, and opposition to multiculturalism. Neither of these positions is explicitly “constitutional” in character, and, indeed, talk of “restoring constitutional values” is nearly nonexistent in alt-right online forums. An amorphous idea of national identity—one that seems to have nothing to do with the Constitution—undergirds the alt-right’s affinity for Trumpist politics.
In fact, some prominent members of the alt-right go beyond neglect for the Constitution into outright hostility.
The Moar You Know
@Roger Moore: I know. I wasn’t clear. The claim is bullshit. It always will be bullshit, because while people DO pay attention to random ads on the internet and emails from people they don’t know, they pay far more attention to people they think are important. I don’t think the Russians – or even nominally American companies like Palantir – can target those opinionmakers. Not yet. I do think that’s coming.
But the Russian blogger army proved that you don’t need to actually do that to win an election. And not just American elections, of course, they’ve been doing this anyplace that people have internet connectivity. All you need to do is flood comment sections and buy certain people off. Not even in money. They may not even be aware they’ve been bought off. As I said in my previous post, pretty sure we had one of those folks just leave the front page crew.
Major Major Major Major
@quintillian: just what an evil supercomputer would say!
schrodingers_cat
@The Moar You Know: Her work done here, she vacated her FP status. She saved us from the Hildebeest.
Chris
@Baud:
Hurt immigrants/hurt blue staters = a win as far as Sessions is concerned.
Ramalama
Where are the Bush neocons – who were so concerned with Russia to the exclusion of the imminent threat by al Quaeda – these days?
m0nty
@Baud:
I usee to write about Big Data for some trade press, and the things that are possible with that stuff are very impressive.
Perhaps the part of this that is not focused on enough is exactly how well resourced Russian spies are. The FSB etc are not Google or IBM, they can’t just click their fingers and call on the best minds with the latest tech. Big Data costs a lot of roubles.
rikyrah
Paul Ryan accidentally tells the truth, rejects bipartisanship
03/30/17 10:00 AM
By Steve Benen
The Republicans’ recent health care effort ended in ignominious failure late last week, prompting a variety of GOP leaders to say they’re eager to move on to other issues, most notably tax reform. And yet, many in the party continue to say the health care fight isn’t in their rear-view mirror just yet.
There’s been quite a bit of chatter this week about Republicans quietly renewing negotiations over health care, looking to salvage the GOP initiative. Indeed, Wall Street watchers noticed yesterday that hospital stocks saw a sharp decline, late in the afternoon, following a report that House Republicans might vote on a new bill to repeal the Affordable Care Act, possibly as early as next week.
I’m skeptical anything will come of this – the intra-party divisions that existed last week haven’t gone away – but House Speaker Paul Ryan (R-Wis.) offered some insights as to why he and his members are still trying to push this boulder uphill.
Referring to Trump’s newfound willingness to talk to Democrats about possible changes to the Affordable Care Act, Ryan told CBS, “I don’t want that to happen.” The Speaker added that if the White House were to pursue bipartisan policymaking, “that’s hardly a conservative thing.”
This has all the makings of a Michael Kinsley Moment: a politician making a mistake by accidentally telling the truth.
Betty Cracker
@The Moar You Know:
Seriously?
Major Major Major Major
@Ramalama: they’ve largely been excluded from the current administration, but folks like Frum have been very vocally anti-Trump and even Cheney spoke out recently.
danielx
Browsing the NY Times this morning, and what to my wondering eyes should appear but a piece entitled:
Why Democrats Should Work With Trump
….featuring such gems as these:
And lastly:
As if.
The first two items would have an impact on Trump’s own self-interests – no tax cuts for rich people? Cut back tax deductions for the wealthy? Yeah, Trump is going to get right on those. The third? One, Trump has no interest whatsoever in doing anything that would negatively affect the fossil fuels industry, particularly in light of the backing he receives from the fossil fuels industry. (Coal miners? He doesn’t give a flying fuck about them, except for photo ops.) As for financing tax overhaul and infrastructure, is there any indication whatsoever that he gives a shit about deficits? Really, now…this is Lewis Carroll-level fantasy. Lastly, Republicans have done quite well out of being the party of no; just ask Mitch McConnell.
Naturally I felt impelled to further investigate the author of this piece, since the overall thrust is “let’s run up the white flag as a precautionary measure lest we be seen as too shrill”. (Fuck that, by the way.) Who, pray tell, is this Will Marshall fella anyway? Der Google steers me right to him, and imagine my surprise (not):
Will Marshall….
And a totally empty suit. I mean, association with the DLC and PNAC tells you all you need to know right there. This sonofabitch embodies everything wrong with the Democratic party, wrapped up in one well-tailored package. “Hey, let’s establish where we’re going to retreat before we think about attacking!”
Fuck him and the PACs upon which he rides.
PPCLI
@rikyrah:
Sigh. Virtue signalling students are tiresome, but in this case they are fools too. Public universities are doing everything they can to quietly protect foreign students, including the undocumented. It is true in the university I know best, and I guarantee 100% that it is true at the University of Utah. Perhaps the worst thing a state university — especially one in a conservative state like Utah — could do for their undocumented students is to grandly and ostentatiously declare themselves a “sanctuary campus”. This is putting a target on the chest. It will bump the school up to the top of the list if ICE raids are considered for universities, etc. Loss of Federal funds is not the worst outcome here.
quintillian
@Major Major Major Major: Ha. Agreed.
Chris
@danielx:
FTFNYT.
scav
does sound like an hyper-promised vaporware “result” that a board member or outside consultant swears by — which subsequently is an expensive, ballyhooed initiative that gets paid a hell of a lot to do a project that accomplishes nil. Somebody’s earning money, probably at multiple stages. Run like a company.
Major Major Major Major
@danielx:
I don’t think that’s fair, there’s some in every party but these types haven’t been near the levers of power in a while.
hovercraft
Via TPM
Former President George W. Bush has been pretty mum about Donald Trump’s presidency so far, but according to New York Magazine, he had some choice words about Trump’s Inauguration.
“That was some weird shit,” Bush said after leaving the dais, three unnamed sources told New York magazine.
Bush’s spokesman declined comment to New York Magazine.
_____________
I guess he didn’t notice the huuge historic crowds, or maybe he’s part of the FAKE NEWS, trying to diminish 45.
Major Major Major Major
@scav:
And it’s the Mercers, a republican megadonor family, quelle surprise.
Lurking Canadian
@Baud: There are actually two different questions. (1) Did the Russians do “microtargeting”? (2) Does “microtargeting” have any measurable effects in the real world.
I’m fully prepared to believe (1). I need more evidence before I’m going to buy (2).
Roger Moore
@Ramalama:
Most of them hopped on the “Never trump” bus and are still on it. Opposition to his foreign policy has been about the only thing that has kept any Republicans from rallying behind him.
Yarrow
@hovercraft:
LOL. I can totally see him saying that. W is probably growing more thankful that Trump is president every day–makes him look competent.
hovercraft
Trump Vows To ‘Fight’ The Freedom Caucus And Democrats In Angry Tweet
The same week he announced he is “serious” about working with Democrats in Congress to pass legislation, President Donald Trump fired off a tweet Thursday morning vowing to fight them and the conservative House Freedom Caucus going forward.
How he plans to pass legislation through Congress without support from either Democrats or hardline conservatives remains to be seen. The GOP health care overhaul went down in flames last week due to opposition from both camps as well as moderate Republicans, who have so far escaped the president’s wrath.
Members of the Freedom Caucus and their allies hit back at the President with their own tweets Thursday morning, accusing Trump of becoming part of the “swamp” he had once vowed to drain and pointing to the unpopularity of the bill they helped defeat.
As they vow to tackle the thorny issue of tax reform in the wake of the health care effort’s demise, Republicans’ narrow majorities in both the House and Senate mean they must unify as a party or reach across the aisle going forward. The President just made both prospects more difficult.
Lurking Canadian
@hovercraft: I am not aware of all Internet traditions, but isn’t there a scene from Downfall that fits the scenario when the leader goes crazy and starts blaming everybody around him for his fuckups?
amk
schrodingers_cat
@hovercraft: This is what happens when a job you are not prepared for is handed to you. The tragedy is that there were enough people who thought that installing Czar Nicholas would be a swell idea.
Immanentize
@danielx: I saw that article — How about, Trump should work with Democrats as a better framing?
Does anyone remember any “think piece” ever that urged Republicans to work with Obama?
Or the Republicans in Congress ought to work with the Democrats pre-2010?
I don’t. It’s always, Obama must work with Republicans. Democrats must work with Republicans. Never the opposite.
danielx
@Major Major Major Major:
Somebody thinks he’s near the levers of power or he wouldn’t be spreading this swill in the most prestigious op-ed real estate in the Western world. We’re going to have to agree to disagree; I think it’s entirely fair in his instance although I admit his views hold less weight than they used to. These guys never go away completely; they’re compensated in various ways for not going away, and their advice always tends towards “let’s not upset anybody, particularly our corporate sponsors, we don’t want to be seen as extremists”. Lather, rinse, repeat.
Major Major Major Major
@Immanentize: there was a lot of talk about republican intransigence when discussing a grand bargain, and I distinctly recall people being incredulous with that no-compromise-even-with-a-100:1-ratio moment at the GOP 2012 primary debate.
Immanentize
The only issue upon which I currently think that Trump and Democrats ought to work together is to kill the farce of raising the debt limit. This is easily done by statute that says money appropriated, if it exceeds the debt limit, is itself an increase in the debt limit. Appropriations = Debt Limit.
rikyrah
Republicans take new steps to keep Trump’s tax returns secret
03/29/17 04:24 PM
By Steve Benen
At a White House press briefing last week, Press Secretary Sean Spicer briefly flubbed a line before correcting himself. “I think there’s a huge appetite,” he said, “for tax returns, tax reform.”
He meant to say the latter, not the former, but in a way, Spicer accidentally told the truth: the public appetite for Donald Trump’s tax returns is real, and despite the ongoing efforts to keep the materials secret, calls for the president to be transparent, as all of his modern predecessors have been, aren’t going away.
Neither are efforts to force Trump to disclose the materials he doesn’t want the public to see. The Huffington Post reported:
In case you’re wondering why the GOP-led committee brought up the issue at all, Roll Call reported that it wasn’t by choice: Ways and Means Chairman Kevin Brady (R-Texas) had to bring up Bill Pascrell’s bill, which would’ve directed the Treasury Department to provide lawmakers with the tax returns, because Dems forced the issue “under a procedural tool known as a resolution of inquiry.”
But forcing a vote obviously doesn’t produce a favorable outcome.
For those keeping score at home, this is the third time Republicans have been forced to vote on the issue, and in each instance, they’ve voted to help shield Trump from scrutiny. That’s not terribly surprising, of course, but some of these GOP lawmakers have told their constituents they actually want Trump to release his returns.
Rep. Matt Gaetz (R-Fla.), for example, held a town-hall event in his conservative Florida district, where he publicly encouraged Trump to release his tax returns. Yesterday, however, Gaetz, a member of the House Ways and Means Committee, voted with his party to help keep the tax returns under wrap.
NorthLeft12
I am struggling to understand what exactly has changed in the US….for decades, any potential connection to or even praise of Russia/Soviet Union by a US political figure was catastrophic to their careers. Now, WTF?
I guess this may be more an understanding that Russia is no longer a Communist/Socialist state, but a far more acceptable dictatorship/kleptocratic/free market state.
Immanentize
@Major Major Major Major: I agree there were lots of people who were saying that, but not in the NYTimes or the Washington Post as I recall. Mostly on Blogs. I might misremember, but the whole narrative was “Obama was asking for too much, kill the public option, bridge too far, work with the Republicans, etc.”
Immanentize
@NorthLeft12: It may still prove catastrophic for their careers. That is what they are afraid of?
Betty Cracker
@hovercraft: Twitler is on a tear this morning. A while ago, he complained about the NYT again and hinted that a change in libel laws might be in order. This from a mofo who spent five-plus years baselessly accusing a sitting president of being a secret foreigner. He’s nuttier than a squirrel turd.
@NorthLeft12: Many of us are also struggling to understand that right along with you.
hovercraft
@NorthLeft12:
Putin became the champion for white people, religiosity and killing the gay. That erased any “red” taint and made him all that is good and pure, much like they were able to ignore all of Twitlers heresies because he hates the right people and wants to further enrich the rich. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
Major Major Major Major
@danielx:
I shouldn’t have to point out that this does not, in fact, make him near the levers of power.
Chris
@NorthLeft12:
I think we’ve been for some time at a point where the half of our countrymen who used to go hysterical at even a hint of Russia simply hate the other half of us more than they do any foreign threat. Give them Russia vs. the Democrats, and they’ll pick Russia.
See also “better Hitler than Blum!” and the people who rallied happily to Vichy after 1940.
hovercraft
@Betty Cracker:
Lucretia and KAC need to sit him down and explain to him that the courts have already said that his public utterances are relevant, and admissible, he’ll be laughed out of court. Oh and even if they shove his Federalist onto the Supreme Court, there’s this little thingy called the First Amendment that allows us to call him, a tiny fingered, pocket dictator, with shit for brains.
Major Major Major Major
@Immanentize: I definitely remember NPR types being shocked by the 100:1 moment.
Roger Moore
@NorthLeft12:
It’s a less sudden change than you think. There was definitely some warming in our relationship after the fall of the Soviet Union. Yeltsin was seen as a real reformer, and for a while Putin was seen as a potential ally against Islamism. Hell, even in 2009, Russia was seen as potentially interesting enough for Obama to want a reset in our relationship.
There’s also the whole right wing authoritarian thing. As it’s become more and more obvious what an autocrat Putin is, the right wing authoritarians here have gotten happier and happier with him. Remember all the stuff about how manly he was compared to Obama? I’m sure that his willingness to fund right wing nationalists throughout the West hasn’t hurt, either.
Finally, there’s the whole “just win baby” attitude. The Republicans have been getting more and more desperate to do whatever they can to beat the Democrats. They really see this as a life-or-death struggle, and they’re willing to do whatever it takes to win. And hey, it’s not as if it’s the first time a Republican presidential candidate has been willing to make a corrupt bargain with a foreign power to help his chances in the election. If it was OK for Nixon to sabotage peace talks with North Vietnam and Reagan to make a deal to delay the release of hostages from Iran, why is it a problem for trump to cut a deal with Russia?
Brachiator
@Thoroughly Pizzled:
You may be right here. The old Soviet Union used to do a lot of shit that was nothing but lame pseudo-science. And any argument about the effectiveness of hacking techniques is actually independent of proof of any intent to influence the elections through hacking.
Of course, voters are under no obligation to vote any particular way, so they don’t need to seek absolution. Not even Trump voters.
I think much of this will turn on simpler stuff, like bags of money delivered to selected Republican politicians and Trump associates in exchange for favors.
Betty Cracker
@hovercraft: From what I’ve read, the third Mrs. Trump successfully squeezed a settlement and an apology out of a U.S. blogger who had repeated UK (I think) press stories saying she had been a high-end escort. I’m not a lawyer and know next to nothing about our libel laws, but that surprised me. I guess it’s just convention that keeps normal politicians from going after small fry bloggers and tabloid media outlets? Otherwise, Hillary Clinton could have retired on the proceeds of her many successful lawsuits ages ago, and the Obamas as well.
The Moar You Know
@Betty Cracker: You gotta be in a serious state of denial not to recognize what she was doing here. And why. She sure didn’t show up because she thought this was the coolest blog of all time.
Chris
@The Moar You Know:
I must be paying a lot less attention than I thought. Who we talking about?
Marmot
@Mike in DC:
Wait, what! The FBI is actually looking into InfoWars and Breitbart?
Roger Moore
@Betty Cracker:
The facts in a particular case matter. Also, the relative depth of the plaintiff’s and defendant’s pockets; small fry bloggers may be forced to settle when sued by multi-millionaires just because they lack the resources to fight. I sincerely doubt trump is going to follow through suing the New York Times because they have deep enough pockets to fight it, and they’ll be more than happy to use discovery to dig through his dirty laundry.
Roger Moore
@Chris:
Hillary Rettig
PJ
@NorthLeft12: France and Germany had a historical enmity going back centuries, but in WWII, the wealthy right-wing elements of French society welcomed (and some cases, I believe, assisted in the victory of) the Nazis, because it would protect them from having to share their wealth or power with the filthy working classes.
Something similar is going on with many right-wingers now. They don’t mind levers being pulled by the Kremlin because it’s for a result that they want – support for white nationalism, a more authoritarian government, tax cuts for the rich, greater freedom to rip off the American people (and entrenchment of the kleptocracy). Who cares if it helps Russia, if it helps them, too? I honestly think that Trump doesn’t think of his behavior as treasonous, but rather as merely another mutually beneficial arrangement.
Goku
@The Moar You Know: Hillary Retig?
Betty Cracker
@The Moar You Know: If your theory is she was a paid or volunteer troll who beguiled Cole to invite her to post here so she could advance Putin’s agenda, sorry, that’s fucking nuts. I sincerely hope I’m misunderstanding you.
Boatboy_srq
@Thoroughly Pizzled: When the choice is gullible tool or bigoted pr!ck, there’s not a lot of feel-good to be had by the rubes.
Goku
@rikyrah: Of course they hate the Constitution. It prevents them from gaining absolute power and getting rid of all the undesirables. It’s (supposed) to guarantee equal rights for all Americans, not just white ones.
Boatboy_srq
@NorthLeft12: Sum of “we won the Cold War” and “Putin looks like us.”
Boatboy_srq
@PJ: France had fairly recent experience with multiple revolutions from ever-lower classes. 1789, 1830, 1848, 1871 moved from bourgeoisie angst through proletariat fury. Small wonder the conservatives allied with their Nazis. There is no such history in the US, and no the sixties don’t count.
Spanky
Please add this to the rotating tags!
TYVM in advance.
MomSense
@schrodingers_cat:
I’d add Snowjob to the list.
MomSense
@rikyrah:
They are trying to neutralize Schiff who has experience dealing with these issues from his successful prosecution of Richard Miller.
schrodingers_cat
@MomSense: Thanks! Great inclusion.
SiubhanDuinne
@The Moar You Know:
She had been a commenter here for quite a while before she was asked to be a FP. And I’m not prepared right now to go back and count, but I would venture a guess that considerably more than half of her posts were about “fauna” as her tag had it — animal welfare, veganism, and so on. (Edit: IOW, not electoral politics all that much.)
@Betty Cracker:
This, Betty, what you said.
p.a.
I most certainly can’t say it’s endemic only to the right, but anecdotally from my life bigots/authoritarians I know will ALWAYS accept info they like, with no effort at analysis or source checks. Except for leftist anti-vaxers, I don’t see the same pathology in general on the left.
SiubhanDuinne
@Spanky:
Oh yes! Please do!
schrodingers_cat
@Betty Cracker: I don’t think she was/is a troll but she was true believer in the greatness of St Sanders of Vt, long after he had any path to victory and she repeated many of the DNC is evil and HRC is a crook conspiracy theories from her lofty perch.
PJ
@Boatboy_srq: I think the most immediate trigger of right-wing fear/hate was the Popular Front government of Leon Blum in 1936. From Wikipedia:
The Nazis weren’t going to make them put up with any of that claptrap.
schrodingers_cat
@SiubhanDuinne:
How does that absolve her from pushing BS memes about DNC and HRC, from her perch.
Ramalama
@danielx: Nice work.
Roger Moore
@p.a.:
Not as bad, certainly, but there’s plenty of reality denial on the left wing, too; it just tends to take the form of purity pony/Green Lantern thinking.
RoonieRoo
@Roger Moore: Wait, whaaaat? I’m struggling to see what on earth y’all are talking about. Paid troll? What?????? Did we fall into the upside down and I missed it?
Unknown known (formerly known as Ecks, former formerly completely unknown)
@Roger Moore: The psych and poli sci research lit says that nobody is immune, but it’s become highly asymmetric – far more prevalent on the right.
satby
@SiubhanDuinne: @The Moar You Know: Nah, Hillary is a real person who lived not far from me when I was in MI, has written several books, and was a long time commenter before she started to FP post. She’s very passionate about animal rights and a dedicated vegan, but she certainly wasn’t a Russian troll. I enjoy her books on perfectionism and writing, and I recommend them.
schrodingers_cat
@satby: Does it really matter why she spread anti HRC propaganda late into the primaries? True believer or troll, end result is the same.
Major Major Major Major
@schrodingers_cat:
Yes, but the question in this case centers around an accusation of trolling.
Betty Cracker
@schrodingers_cat: She was definitely a Sandersite and repeated the same bullshit (IMO) memes about Clinton that many Sanders supporters — and Sanders himself — repeated. But after the primary was over, she mostly avoided politics altogether, said she intended to vote for Clinton and encouraged others to do so. That’s a far cry from what (may) have been alleged here.
Boatboy_srq
@PJ: With Blum, the left got a lot of what it wanted. But it had been wanting a lot for a long time. I suspect the French Right drew a line from Blum toward his potential successors and it looked like the shift from Danton to Robespierre.
Major Major Major Major
@Betty Cracker: I gotta say after this election there’s a lot of people I just can’t read any more, or care about what they have to say, because of the way they behaved.
pseudonymous in nc
Mark Warner says that perhaps 1,000 trolls were on the Russian fake news payroll.
I’d be curious to know if Facebook has been asked to provide certain ad buy records — including targeting data — under subpoena.
schrodingers_cat
@Betty Cracker: A lot of BS supporters got played, I always heard T’s attack memes about HRC from my BS or bust friend, first. The Russian operation, knew fully well how to target leftier-than-thou crunchy contingent. BTW my friend (Yoga teacher and a vegetarian) got most of her anti-HRC memes from FaceBook.
I agree that BJ Hillary was more of a true believer and not a troll.
ruemara
@Baud: No, it’s highly normal. It’s what you do when you review voter rolls and do the research to determine voting patterns and decide to hit them up for cash or volunteering. It just takes even broader data, like sites they frequent, pundits they like and if you can submit just the right selection of “facts” and hyperbole, you can manipulate that demographic. Just consider how many leftists hated HRC and were really all up in the email server story. It wasn’t an accident. You just play on the tendency of people to gravitate to what they like. Like right now, you could buy my vote for sushi.
@rikyrah: God, fuck both of them. The neonazi bully squad hates the old school classist White supremacist? I hope they both immolate themselves.
SiubhanDuinne
@schrodingers_cat:
I wasn’t aware that she required absolution, or that she gave up her rights to express her views as a commenter or FP. And as with anyone, the rest of us pushed back good and hearty when we disagreed with her. FTR, I think she was wrong about BS, HRC, the DNC, and a lot of other things. And I am very far from being a vegan! But even in disagreement, I have always found her to be erudite, thoughtful, and more willing than many to entertain opposing views.
Major Major Major Major
@SiubhanDuinne: I also found her writing advice helpful, though I also understand how she might not have found this to be a particularly welcoming place for her writing especially of late.
Miss Bianca
Don’t know if anyone else has already posted this or not, but whoa…what the hell is MoDo smoking now? What did she toke on that’s made her try speaking truth to Trump for a change?
And where was all this bravura before the election?
schrodingers_cat
@SiubhanDuinne: She can express whatever she wants, I have a right to disagree. I cannot forget and forgive that people like Hillary gave us T.
ETA: I am not all that well disposed to well meaning but moronic arguments about vegetarianism or BS. Sorry, I refuse to celebrate the clueless.
NR
@Roger Moore:
Or continued faith in the Democratic establishment after the last eight years of abject elecotral disaster.
SiubhanDuinne
@satby:
Absolutely this. Yes, I can’t remember where I first came across her, but I’m pretty sure it was before she started commenting regularly here, let alone before her stint as a FP. She’s been a known quantity for quite a while. And the idea that she is or was a troll, a Russian troll, a paid Russian troll FFS, is simply laughable. Have always liked her and admired her passion, even in disagreement on the specifics.
different-church-lady
@schrodingers_cat: I did sound for a focus group before the NH primary, and the big thing I learned is that even democrats will just repeat any old bullshit they hear, and nearly verbatim.
Major Major Major Major
Well, I’m outta here.
SiubhanDuinne
@schrodingers_cat:
You do indeed.
different-church-lady
@SiubhanDuinne: I’m in no mood to defend Moar, but I don’t think the point was she was a paid Russian troll, merely that some people are perfectly willing to fall for the disinformation “chum” and spread it voluntarily.
My view would be far too many people fit that category.
NR
@schrodingers_cat: What gave us Trump is a Democratic party establishment that threw hundreds of millions of dollars at a handful of consulting firms while failing to do things like build an effective ground game.
But hey, let’s blame some bloggers instead. I’m sure none of that other stuff mattered and it was all their fault.
different-church-lady
@Miss Bianca: My god, that’s a lot of words to say, “The dude was always full of shit and never gave a fuck, and I’m still too dumb to see that clearly.”
satby
@Major Major Major Major: How are you and your family doing today? I’ve been thinking of you.
different-church-lady
@NR: When your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a validation of your own pet theories.
schrodingers_cat
@Major Major Major Major: Good idea, time for me to do the same since Neo Russian has showed up to blame Democrats.
satby
@schrodingers_cat: It seems like dedicated veganism is a bit of a trigger for you, maybe because of husband-kitty’s family IIRC? You always got unusually keyed up by them. I skip posts that I’m just not interested in, which leaves me high and dry during sports threads.
Betty Cracker
@Major Major Major Major: Not in a permanent sense, I hope! I hear you about having low tolerance for bullshit post-election. I have none for Trumpsters.
@different-church-lady: Did you see the comment at #79? It sure sounds like an accusation of malicious intent to me, not just cluelessness or gullibility. Hope I’ve misunderstood.
satby
@Major Major Major Major: whoops, missed him!
Major Major Major Major
@satby: Been better. Not sleeping well. Thanks for checking in.
ETA: I am, evidently, not quite outta here :P
satby
@Major Major Major Major: sending virtual hug and good thoughts. Getting through this, even when long expected, is tough.
schrodingers_cat
@satby: No it has nothing to do with my husband’s family, they may be vegetarian but they do not evangelize their vegetarianism. HR’s vegan articles were full of spurious links and unscientific claims, she would get defensive when called on it. Her heart was in the right place but that’s not good enough for me. YMMV.
ETA: Holier-than-thou bleating about dietary choices gets on my last nerve. Eat what you want, don’t preach at me.
Major Major Major Major
@schrodingers_cat: I hear you. Woo can be a trigger for me too.
NR
@different-church-lady: Let’s do a fun little exercise, shall we? Which of the following is more likely to have affected the results of an election across the entire United States in which over 100 million people voted?
1. One of the presidential candidates, and the political party behind her, spending hundreds of millions of dollars on a handful of consulting firms with a horrible track record of winning elections while neglecting to build an effective ground game
OR
2. A handful of bloggers saying some unkind words about one of the candidates.
different-church-lady
@NR: Let’s do a fun little exercise: imagine that the world is vastly more complex than those two options.
Miss Bianca
@Major Major Major Major: Were you saying the other day that your grandma is failing? I was in lurk mode, so I’m not 100% certain I’m remembering correctly, but sending good thoughts your way anyway!
satby
@schrodingers_cat: well, I have friends who constantly share just as much woo, so maybe I just ignore it easier (she types as she enjoys her rare steak ?).
NR
@different-church-lady: And yet plenty of people here are willing to flog away at option #2 over and over again as being the thing that “gave us Trump.”
satby
@different-church-lady: Norman, coordinate!
schrodingers_cat
@satby: Also, check out how the ruling party in India is using vegetarianism as a political tool to rip apart the fragile comity between communities. Its no laughing matter for me.
Miss Bianca
@different-church-lady: Forget it, it’s NotRussian. There’s no such thing as either “complexity” or “fun” in its limited lexicon and world view.
Jack the Second
“People who say things which are stupid / wrong / I disagree with on the internet are paid trolls” is a stupid claim. It’s stupid when it’s “People who support GMO are paid Monsanto trolls”, it’s stupid when it’s “People who deny the connection between vaccines and autism are in the pocket of Big Pharma”, it’s stupid when it’s “People who supported Bernie past the primaries are paid Russian trolls”.
It doesn’t help that some people are, in fact, paid trolls, but just accusing people you don’t like of being a paid troll is not a productive form of online discourse.
(Now where’s my money?)
Major Major Major Major
@Miss Bianca: you are correct, thanks. It’s terrible, our undignified way of dying is barbaric.
@Jack the Second: Soros check is in the mail. Any day now.
satby
@schrodingers_cat: One of my friends in India is a huge Modi fanatic. I’m frequently very glad I can’t read the language.
No, it’s not funny. But Hillary was hardly in that class.
NR
@different-church-lady: To expand a bit: of course you’re right that there were more factors at play in the last election than the two I listed. But of those two things, there is no doubt that the first had orders of magnitude more impact than the second. Which makes some people here’s obsession with the second idiotic, to say the least.
schrodingers_cat
@satby: India has a lot of English newspapers, if you want to keep abreast of the news there. Times of India, is the same niche as NYT. For lefty-liberal Guardian like perspective you can read Hindu.
No she isn’t in that class, she means well.
? Martin
It’s absolutely not big data bullshit. In many ways it’s the opposite. Rather than try and crunch data to identify a given demographic, it’s recognizing that the demographic has organized itself. All you really need to do is get that propaganda in the hands of the people most predisposed to believe it and Facebook will take care of the rest. It’ll flow through exactly the network that you want to reach without you having to work out who those individuals are because they self-organize. That’s how this place works as well – you want something damaging about Trump to spread, give it to one of us, who are likely to want to share that information with other people likely to want to hear it.
Betty Cracker
@NR: I think it’s absurd to believe a “handful of bloggers” could swing an election, but it sure looks like a substantial offshore investment was made to enact a fairly sophisticated scheme to manipulate all kinds of people via social media, including the current president — perhaps with the collusion of himself or his staff. And it’ll keep happening. Maybe you’ll recognize the gravity of the situation when a candidate you approve of is destroyed politically.
different-church-lady
@NR: There’s so many idiotic obsessions around here that I have no clue how any of you pick one to focus on at any given moment.
different-church-lady
@Jack the Second: Wait… there are still productive forms of online discourse?
Major Major Major Major
@? Martin: What you described is not microtargeting. You say
Which is exactly what they’re doing but literally the whole idea of microtargeting is working out who those individuals are.
NR
@Betty Cracker: I certainly don’t approve of Russia interfering in our elections.
But I think it’s absurd to believe that whatever meddling they did on social media had more of an impact on the election than what the Democratic party did with the hundreds of millions of dollars that it collected during the campaign. Maybe if they’d spent it more wisely, instead of giving it to a few consulting firms that couldn’t win a local school board race, we’d all be talking about what President Clinton was doing right now.
Betty Cracker
@NR: I think the Dems were guilty of fighting the last war to some extent, but I don’t think that makes them uniquely incompetent. Pretty much every institution we thought we had to keep a low-life, unqualified grifter like Trump out of the White House failed, including the Republican Party and the media.
NR
@Betty Cracker:
Well I can certainly agree with you about that.
different-church-lady
@NR: Dude, roughly half the country voted for a person they knew perfectly well was an INCOMPETENT RACIST. No amount of democrats spending money differently would have changed that.
NR
@different-church-lady: Read the article I posted. Better turnout operations absolutely could have made a difference.
But if you really believe what you wrote, there’s no reason to ever give money to the Democratic party again, is there?